City Debunking the Arguments Against Mass Transit
posted by on October 31 at 17:34 PM
As I noted earlier, rail opponent and Bellevue developer Kemper Freeman made transit proponents’ argument for them during a debate with Mayor Greg Nickels at the UW last week, arguing—bizarrely—that we shouldn’t build light rail because it predominantly helps rush hour commuters. Nickels responded that that’s exactly the point: Transit is supposed to serve people at the most congested times. “The problem is that we all try to get to and from work and to and from the university at the same time every day,” Nickels said. “We wouldn’t have to put down another cubic foot of concrete if all those trips were spread out throughout the day and night.”
Anyway, the Mass Transit Now campaign has posted the video of Freeman laying out his “argument.” It’s convoluted, to say the least.
Meanwhile, what may be the real reason Freeman opposes transit—because doesn’t want “those kind of people” coming to his Bellevue Square shopping mall and reducing his the property values—is being proven false in Denver, where homes along light-rail lines have actually increased in value, sometimes dramatically. As home values throughout Denver as a whole have declined 7.5 percent, the value of homes along rail lines has increased 4 percent. And the closer a home is to a rail station, the more its value has increased.
As for the argument that rail and express buses “can’t possibly” serve the million riders they will have the capacity to carry daily, because trains will be running empty—another Freeman favorite—Sightline’s Clark Williams-Derry points out that many Seattle buses are now actually running above capacity, suggesting that light rail trains will be far from empty (especially at rush hour). The fuller buses and trains are, the bigger positive impact they have on the climate. That’s true, it turns out, even when you consider the whole “life cycle” of the system, including greenhouse gases produced manufacturing buses and rail cars and building roads and rail lines.
Is the Star Lake to Bellevue bus currently running above capacity? Because that's the route that would seem to apply to the capacity question.
Unfortunately, ST2 would do jack shit to free up capacity on most existing bus routes, and serve a tiny fragment of the population -- a tiny fragment of the transit-riding population at that.
Erica - you need to get on the clue bus.
The public will be loathe to vote new taxes right now for any project. This will fail.
I hope you get it - money pure and simple - nothimg to do with good pro and bad con.
The new slogan in all politic should be - GET IT. NO NEW TAXES FOR ANYTHING FROM VOTERS.
Going to be a bad slide out there folks. Sound Transit will not be able to pay their existing bonds ....... bankrupTcy in their future??
There is a story for you Erica, real news. Who will go bankrupt after King County??
Metro??? Sound transit???
Pro and con on ballot measure is passe if they are for money.
Need to get it.
Can't we just pay the people who built the SkyTrain in Vancouver to come build something? That seems to work okay.
I just don't want to have to drive to Mariner's games.
Aren't big public works projects a good way to pull the economy out of a recession?
@4 not if theyre funded by debt that citizens are unwilling to buy (buy bonds you saps). and not if they have goddamn salmon art.
andrew: The public will be loathe to vote new taxes right now for any project. This will fail.
Andrew-baby, screaming that a measure will fail is not an argument that it should fail. Speaking on behalf of the voters and saying the voters will reject this suggests either you have God-like powers to read the minds of thousands, or that you're just as bad as Sarah Palin when she talks about the real Americans in the pro-America parts of America.
But if you do have such magical powers to divine the will of the voters, how do you explain that the most recent polling is showing Proposition 1 winning, even despite the economic meltdown? Andrew, your head starting to spin now? Or is that only going to happen come Tuesday night if Prop. 1 is winning?
Andrew's rant @2 is typical. The anti-transit folks like to say, "You can't raise taxes during a recession." On the face of it, this argument makes sense--if you're someone who goes through life perpetually crouched in a proverbial fetal position.
It's basically saying, "Oh, we're too poor." So their answer is: "Let's make ourselves even poorer."
Building a high-capacity mass-transit line is ultimately about the economic vitality of this region. Either we make the commitment to providing a fast, reliable alternative to traffic congestion so people can get to these things called "jobs" or we relieve traffic congestion the hard way--by people and jobs moving away. ST2 is an investment in infrastructure, our infrastructure, and our economy.
If you keep on claiming poverty, eventually poverty will claim you. If we keep putting off expanding light rail, eventually we will be too poor to expand light rail.
Cressona:
1. do you have a link for this poll you cite?
Thank you.
Unity on the bus--
So, what you're gleefully saying is that light rail soon becomes a taxi for the wealthy (which is what it is in New York, ferrying Wall Street types from Connecticut to the Battery).
At the same time, Metro cuts bus service which covers a wider area with service from more begin and end points. They make the buses feeder routes to the train -- which is more expensive to ride and to run -- forcing people to pay more.
And about those high capacity bus routes -- remember, the fare pays for less than 25 percent of the cost of the trip. In fact, it could be as low as 6 percent in some instances.
That leaves the other people who don't ride the bus to pay top dollar for trips that could be made cheaper by car if the bus wasn't subsidized!
Light rail is anything but -- it is an oppressive burden on the common citizen who cannot or will not be riding the rails 1 out of 100 times. What he will be doing is paying an extra tax for limousine commuters to have personal trolley from their overpriced condoes.
joykiller @1: Unfortunately, ST2 would do jack shit to free up capacity on most existing bus routes, and serve a tiny fragment of the population -- a tiny fragment of the transit-riding population at that.
Question for you, joykiller, do you actually believe the crap you write or do you know it's bullshit?
That tiny fragment of the population you're talking about would constitute an 80% increase in projected Sound Transit ridership: 360,000 projected riders with Prop. 1 vs. 200,000 projected riders with the system being built out now. I'm presuming that's daily ridership, but someone in the know can fill me in.
And my understanding is that those are very conservative projections. My recollection too is that actual ridership on recently built mass transit lines has been blowing away the projected numbers.
Oh, and isn't it strange how the same people who talk about 160,000 (or in excess of 160,000) being a tiny number are much the same people who don't consider the 110,000 vehicles a day on the viaduct a tiny number?
PC @8: Cressona:
1. do you have a link for this poll you cite?
Here's a recent SurveyUSA poll.
Y'know, I feel kinda seedy even responding to a John Bailo post (like I missed the "Don't Feed the Troll" sign), but here goes...
John Bailo @9:
So half the perpetual naysayers are wildly speculating that light rail will be a rolling homeless shelter, and the other half of the perpetual naysayers are wildly speculating it will be a high-priced shuttle for the rich. Can you people at least get your stories straight? You're contradicting yourselves.
John Bailo: They make the buses feeder routes to the train -- which is more expensive to ride and to run -- forcing people to pay more.
So John, where are you getting this information that light rail passes will be more expensive than bus passes? You may be correct. I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
12: "you people"
(1) "you people"
I am not "you people". I am an individual expressing an opinion. I have expressed that opinion. If it is different from others that you may have heard or read, then it's up to you to integrate or reject those arguments. It's called "thinking".
(2) "where are you getting this information"
Oh, gee, I do stuff like, read the price chart on the bus schedules, or go to the train station in Kent and read the Sounder ticket price. You know, real hard stuff like that.
Cressona - you are in a dream world.
There is no bond market. With the steep decline in revenue, there will be no money to pay the bonds.
I support light rail, But, the depression, being called a deep recession is on its way.
What might have owrked five years ago will not work in the next five.
Money, honey, all money. Ain't none. Easy to tell you have a cushion city or state job. And live in the blue light zone of metro Seattle.
And if someone says something you do not like, you clamor on them like a wild animal.
You need to read up on the great depression a bit.
All bet are off for a decade, and the recovery will be slow and a social and fiscal order will emerge unlike the past decade.
all the - WE NEED, WE NEED WE NEED - clamor in the world will not alter the coming chaos of the next 5-7 years.
The State is broke, the city is broke, and the county is REALLY broke.
The best bet for this project is a WPA project to create jobs, yes funded by the Feds who can print money and go into debt. But from locally generated sales tax, not a chance.
Cressona, let's here you screech some more. That does not change the fiscal collapse we are starting to move toward.
Depression ain't pretty, it means hunger and dire poverty for millions of Americans.
And giving up much of what seems so essential - for a decade.
The State of New York needs 47 billion or it will careen to insolvency - something like that - in the FIRST year of the bad six or seven.
Bonds were like toilet paper, worthless engravings, in the Great Depression, cause no one had money to pay them -- massive almost universal defaults..... except federal paper.
If this measure passes, Sound Transit may have a horrible time selling the bonds for the CASH. Remember, backed by sales tax. Any fiscal mind can quickly say, what happens when consumer spending is cut by 60 percent for years??? Bond payers default, that is what happens, bankruptcy courts reign and there are struggles and sometimes liquidation.
Sorry Cressona. And the state will NOT bail out Seattle. By Feb Gregoire or Rossi will have to cut 4.5 billion from the state budget .... must balance by state constitution. Life on the deluxe new age train is over.
And, let's just be frank, World War II ended the Great Depression, defense jobs including Army and Navy in the millions, for anybody. Jobs at Boeing and at Bremerton in the tens of thousands for Seattle. Wasn't no wonder recovery of the system, despite the greatness and strong leadership of FDR and all he and Eleanor did.
Need to go play costume party for the night.And what the hell does Sarah Palin have to do with anything? Alaska has no taxes, gushing with wealth, rebated oil royalty sent to everyone for years. about 3,000.00 last year, Cressona is not making sense, a lot it seems.
Put Dear Sarah out of your mind, real problems lay ahead for Obama and his teams. She is of no, no, no consequence at all.
John Bailo @9:
That's a pretty good trick, since there is no light rail from Connecticut to NYC. In fact, I believe the only light rail in the whole area is the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, over in Jersey.
Perhaps you were thinking of MTA New York City Transit? Mind you, their combined subway and bus operations have a farebox recovery ratio of 67% (best in the country!), and has lower operating costs for rail compared to bus on both a per-vehicle-mile and per-passenger basis.
What was your argument again?
250,000+ people work in Downtown Seattle, 65,000 work in Downtown Bellevue. Microsoft is going ahead on adding workers to the Downtown Seattle area (SLU), Russell is looking into Seattle, Amazon is moving directly into Downtown, UW Medical Center is expanding, Gates Foundation, several hundred new residents, etcetera.
Downtown is going to add more jobs than it will lose.
How will you move all the people? Buses use the same exits and same downtown streets.
John Bailo @13:
John, thanks for pointing out that you're just some random individual spouting off what immediately comes to mind. As if that wasn't already overwhelmingly obvious.
This reminds me of the nutcases out there who insist that Obama is a Muslim at the same time other nutcases out there insist Obama is a Marxist, without ever addressing the fact that those other views are out there and they're mutually exclusive, without it ever occurring to them that people may be reading their own ravings in the context of having read those other ravings and dismissing them all.
Believe it or not, John, it might behoove you to think a little about the context in which people gain a perception of you before you post. Yes, thinking, it's a wonderful thing.
John Bailo @13 (in answer to my question where he gets his information that rail passes are more expensive than bus passes):
Hold on, so you want to make the argument that rail is a boutique luxury for the rich, and you do so by pointing out that commuter rail is more expensive?! This is a bit like criticizing the home team's trade for a star player because you're afraid one of the throw-in players in the trade won't perform. Sounder's a small fish in the whole package.
John, why don't you make clear what the heck it is you're talking about? Again, not to water down your unadulterated rants, but it might actually help you get your point across if you gave some thought to the context in which people take in what you're saying.
When our Southeast light rail line opened here in Denver there was a stop adjacent to the giant Park Meadows Shopping Center. The former management wanted nothing to do with providing access to the station. (There's an enbankment and fence making it impossible to reach the mall from the station - just a few hundred feet away)
Now realizing how much money they're losing by commuters who would make a stop there on the way home from work or come down from the city center, they're building pedestrian access.
james http://www.futuregringo.com
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