Unfortunately, ST2 would do jack shit to free up capacity on most existing bus routes, and serve a tiny fragment of the population -- a tiny fragment of the transit-riding population at that.

The public will be loathe to vote new taxes right now for any project. This will fail.

I hope you get it - money pure and simple - nothimg to do with good pro and bad con.

The new slogan in all politic should be - GET IT. NO NEW TAXES FOR ANYTHING FROM VOTERS.

Going to be a bad slide out there folks. Sound Transit will not be able to pay their existing bonds ....... bankrupTcy in their future??

There is a story for you Erica, real news. Who will go bankrupt after King County??

Metro??? Sound transit???

Pro and con on ballot measure is passe if they are for money.

Need to get it.

I just don't want to have to drive to Mariner's games.

Andrew-baby, screaming that a measure will fail is not an argument that it should fail. Speaking on behalf of the voters and saying the voters will reject this suggests either you have God-like powers to read the minds of thousands, or that you're just as bad as Sarah Palin when she talks about the real Americans in the pro-America parts of America.

But if you do have such magical powers to divine the will of the voters, how do you explain that the most recent polling is showing Proposition 1 winning, even despite the economic meltdown? Andrew, your head starting to spin now? Or is that only going to happen come Tuesday night if Prop. 1 is winning?

It's basically saying, "Oh, we're too poor." So their answer is: "Let's make ourselves even poorer."

Building a high-capacity mass-transit line is ultimately about the economic vitality of this region. Either we make the commitment to providing a fast, reliable alternative to traffic congestion so people can get to these things called "jobs" or we relieve traffic congestion the hard way--by people and jobs moving away. ST2 is an investment in infrastructure, our infrastructure, and our economy.

If you keep on claiming poverty, eventually poverty will claim you. If we keep putting off expanding light rail, eventually we will be too poor to expand light rail.

At the same time, Metro cuts bus service which covers a wider area with service from more begin and end points. They make the buses feeder routes to the train -- which is more expensive to ride and to run -- forcing people to pay more.

And about those high capacity bus routes -- remember, the fare pays for less than 25 percent of the cost of the trip. In fact, it could be as low as 6 percent in some instances.

That leaves the other people who don't ride the bus to pay top dollar for trips that could be made cheaper by car if the bus wasn't subsidized!

Light rail is anything but -- it is an oppressive burden on the common citizen who cannot or will not be riding the rails 1 out of 100 times. What he will be doing is paying an extra tax for limousine commuters to have personal trolley from their overpriced condoes.

Question for you, joykiller, do you actually believe the crap you write or do you know it's bullshit?

That tiny fragment of the population you're talking about would constitute an 80% increase in projected Sound Transit ridership: 360,000 projected riders with Prop. 1 vs. 200,000 projected riders with the system being built out now. I'm presuming that's daily ridership, but someone in the know can fill me in.

And my understanding is that those are very conservative projections. My recollection too is that actual ridership on recently built mass transit lines has been blowing away the projected numbers.

Oh, and isn't it strange how the same people who talk about 160,000 (or in excess of 160,000) being a tiny number are much the same people who don't consider the 110,000 vehicles a day on the viaduct a tiny number?

Here's a recent SurveyUSA poll.

John Bailo @9:

So, what you're gleefully saying is that light rail soon becomes a taxi for the wealthy (which is what it is in New York, ferrying Wall Street types from Connecticut to the Battery).

So half the perpetual naysayers are wildly speculating that light rail will be a rolling homeless shelter, and the other half of the perpetual naysayers are wildly speculating it will be a high-priced shuttle for the rich. Can you people at least get your stories straight? You're contradicting yourselves.

John Bailo: They make the buses feeder routes to the train -- which is more expensive to ride and to run -- forcing people to pay more.

So John, where are you getting this information that light rail passes will be more expensive than bus passes? You may be correct. I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

(1) "you people"

I am not "you people". I am an individual expressing an opinion. I have expressed that opinion. If it is different from others that you may have heard or read, then it's up to you to integrate or reject those arguments. It's called "thinking".

(2) "where are you getting this information"

Oh, gee, I do stuff like, read the price chart on the bus schedules, or go to the train station in Kent and read the Sounder ticket price. You know, real hard stuff like that.

There is no bond market. With the steep decline in revenue, there will be no money to pay the bonds.

I support light rail, But, the depression, being called a deep recession is on its way.

What might have owrked five years ago will not work in the next five.

Money, honey, all money. Ain't none. Easy to tell you have a cushion city or state job. And live in the blue light zone of metro Seattle.

And if someone says something you do not like, you clamor on them like a wild animal.

You need to read up on the great depression a bit.

All bet are off for a decade, and the recovery will be slow and a social and fiscal order will emerge unlike the past decade.

all the - WE NEED, WE NEED WE NEED - clamor in the world will not alter the coming chaos of the next 5-7 years.

The State is broke, the city is broke, and the county is REALLY broke.

The best bet for this project is a WPA project to create jobs, yes funded by the Feds who can print money and go into debt. But from locally generated sales tax, not a chance.

Cressona, let's here you screech some more. That does not change the fiscal collapse we are starting to move toward.

Depression ain't pretty, it means hunger and dire poverty for millions of Americans.

And giving up much of what seems so essential - for a decade.

Bonds were like toilet paper, worthless engravings, in the Great Depression, cause no one had money to pay them -- massive almost universal defaults..... except federal paper.

If this measure passes, Sound Transit may have a horrible time selling the bonds for the CASH. Remember, backed by sales tax. Any fiscal mind can quickly say, what happens when consumer spending is cut by 60 percent for years??? Bond payers default, that is what happens, bankruptcy courts reign and there are struggles and sometimes liquidation.

Sorry Cressona. And the state will NOT bail out Seattle. By Feb Gregoire or Rossi will have to cut 4.5 billion from the state budget .... must balance by state constitution. Life on the deluxe new age train is over.

And, let's just be frank, World War II ended the Great Depression, defense jobs including Army and Navy in the millions, for anybody. Jobs at Boeing and at Bremerton in the tens of thousands for Seattle. Wasn't no wonder recovery of the system, despite the greatness and strong leadership of FDR and all he and Eleanor did.

Need to go play costume party for the night.And what the hell does Sarah Palin have to do with anything? Alaska has no taxes, gushing with wealth, rebated oil royalty sent to everyone for years. about 3,000.00 last year, Cressona is not making sense, a lot it seems.

Put Dear Sarah out of your mind, real problems lay ahead for Obama and his teams. She is of no, no, no consequence at all.

That's a pretty good trick, since there is no light rail from Connecticut to NYC. In fact, I believe the only light rail in the whole area is the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, over in Jersey.

Perhaps you were thinking of MTA New York City Transit? Mind you, their combined subway and bus operations have a farebox recovery ratio of 67% (best in the country!), and has lower operating costs for rail compared to bus on both a per-vehicle-mile and per-passenger basis.

What was your argument again?

Downtown is going to add more jobs than it will lose.

How will you move all the people? Buses use the same exits and same downtown streets.

I am not "you people". I am an individual expressing an opinion. I have expressed that opinion. If it is different from others that you may have heard or read, then it's up to you to integrate or reject those arguments. It's called "thinking".

John, thanks for pointing out that you're just some random individual spouting off what immediately comes to mind. As if that wasn't already overwhelmingly obvious.

This reminds me of the nutcases out there who insist that Obama is a Muslim at the same time other nutcases out there insist Obama is a Marxist, without ever addressing the fact that those other views are out there and they're mutually exclusive, without it ever occurring to them that people may be reading their own ravings in the context of having read those other ravings and dismissing them all.

Believe it or not, John, it might behoove you to think a little about the context in which people gain a perception of you before you post. Yes, thinking, it's a wonderful thing.

Oh, gee, I do stuff like, read the price chart on the bus schedules, or go to the train station in Kent and read the Sounder ticket price. You know, real hard stuff like that.

Hold on, so you want to make the argument that rail is a boutique luxury for the rich, and you do so by pointing out that commuter rail is more expensive?! This is a bit like criticizing the home team's trade for a star player because you're afraid one of the throw-in players in the trade won't perform. Sounder's a small fish in the whole package.

John, why don't you make clear what the heck it is you're talking about? Again, not to water down your unadulterated rants, but it might actually help you get your point across if you gave some thought to the context in which people take in what you're saying.

Now realizing how much money they're losing by commuters who would make a stop there on the way home from work or come down from the city center, they're building pedestrian access.

james http://www.futuregringo.com