John Doe rhymes with Mr. Poe...

John Doe there better watch his back!

Let's tar and feather him!! =P

I want to start by saying, I love Stranger letters that start with, "I want to start by saying that I love The Stranger. It truly is the best newspaper in Seattle, and I look forward to it every week."

*Fucker must die!

Just kidding.

Well, Poe is an admitted sock-puppeteer...

Asking SLOG commenters to "discuss" is like asking preschoolers to share.

Oh no, Mean Slog Commenters explosion of hate in three...two...one...

Also, I’ve seen some pretty messed-up stuff out there, and the Slog comments are in the top five...c'mon, really? I think you're giving us a little too much credit here.

Hooray for us!

@4

The Stranger is a newspaper?!

The Legend of Chelsea Alvarez-Bell will live on longer than any of us reading this today!

Man, it cracks me up every time someone freaks out and claims the commenters here are the meanest people on the internet or some shit. Sure thing, Pollyanna.

Nobody has ever threatened to kill someone they don't like on Slog outside of #5.

And even bothering to post this pussy shit? This is clearly one of Chelsea's friends. Not a concerned reader. A concerned reader would stop being a reader of the comments. How are the comments hurting anyone? Don't click "post comments" if you don't want to read the fucking comments. Just scroll the Slog.

God these people are irritating.

And if I'm such a fucking burden, just ask me to leave. Your blog = your rules. There's nothing fun about being unwelcome, so let me know if I am.

I read the same comments on SLOG that this prude does and I'm neither appalled nor offended by them. I wonder with this post: Is Savage starting to have doubts about how SLOG's comments are being handled, and are changes coming?

We've somehow crossed the fulcrum of the Internet being "serious business" into some strange new land.

I agree with Mike in MO -- John Doe clearly hasn't experienced the vast wastes of cyberspace if he thinks the Slog is bad.

I concur with Mr. Doe. I often wonder why some of the commenters are so vitriolic. If you hate the Slog or The Stranger so much why are you even reading this blog? If you disagree with the post, fine, why don't you just say why you think it's wrong or lame. Ad hominen is neither entertaining nor productive.

And if you must say something mean you should at least make it witty.

Awww, Poe, don't let the haters get you down. It's unbecoming.

We should keep Mr. Poe around.

I'm told his tears can cure the lame.

Mr John Doe should kill himself.

Or else realize that most SLOG commenters neither have lives nor the moral integrity to identify internet insults/threats as significantly offensive.

Aside from gnawing the fingers and toes off sleeping babies, Mr. Poe is harmless. And John Doe is a drama queen.

But his point about The Stranger's internal struggle of the soul between progressivism vs. allowed Slog posts is worth pondering.

Despite some of my less salutary bloviations, I'm at peace in my heart that I do not hate women or people of another race.

That said, I'm not at all confident that others here have that same sense. I honestly do feel there are some people who post here that hate...women, men, other races, gays, straights, bisexuals, or what have you.

That's too bad, but it's also life. And it's real. Not pretty and real, but real nonetheless. So I think it needs to be allowed to present itself and then beaten down with a stick, versus being banned and hidden from view. You know what they say: sunlight helps a scab peel quicker. Well, my dad always said that...

Bottom line, I think The Stranger is much more effective as a provider of free speech than as yet another stentorian, plodding left-wing circle jerk. That means ugly comments, but it also provides those of us who do not like the ugly comments with a chance to sharpen our debating teeth and push back on the trolls, hopefully with enough force that they scuttle off to another site.

When registration begins please enforce against sexist/racist/violent commenters.

Also, death threats are not protected speech and dozens (hundreds?) of people have been convicted for making online death threats. If any sloggers were district attorneys, Mr. Poe would be in jail for life.

Obviously, John Doe has never read any You Tube comments. At least the hatred on Slog comes from literate people.

@ #10, I was quoting the letter but, I do refer to The Stranger as a weekly newspaper so...

This isn't a place for cool-headed discourse. Anyone who thinks it should be is going to become frustrated very quickly. I don't think most of us take ourselves seriously enough to have Charlie Rose-syle discussions. There are a million and a half other places on the web for that kind of wind-baggery. Slog is a great place to read news--it's an even better place to laugh at some very smart and very mean people's comments. I like it that way.

And I think John Doe is being more than a little melodramatic.

The only thing more annoying that nasty anonymous blog commenters are those who wail on and on and on AND ON about what big meanies the nasty anonymous blog commenters are. It always seems to involve an accusation of misogyny, too. Who are these people who are surprised and horrified, in 2008, by the fact that the Internet contains unfriendliness?

Why don't people complain about the rampant misandry around here?

Equal time for misandry, I say!

for real, the slog is outta control.

Retarded jackanape.

Ahh... I smell someone laying the ground work to justify registration & censorship...

(ECB must be wearing the pants now...)

I've seen this happen before. You need to at least suspend slog happy, or else I only foresee major violence soon when someone takes Mr. Poe's suicide jokes the wrong way. Especially since I imagine him to be about 4'11.

I think comments are an important part of Slog. It's great to get the variety of opinion, the added information and links, the nuggets of comedy and even some of the snarkiness. The comments are certainly part of the reason I read Slog. I even like the idea of the commenters' clique that has become an extended cast of Stranger characters.

But the vitriol is really astounding, especially of late. It's beyond good-natured meanness. I don't even always disagree with the guilty parties, but I am still amazed at what people will say in a comment thread that they'd never dream of saying to someone's face. (ok, maybe they would, but what I read over and over is "so-in-so is really nice in person!" leading me to believe they probably wouldn't say those things.) It always amazes me, on every forum I read across the spectrum. (Yeah, I know, I'm naive.) And no, I don't want to skip the comments for the reasons I stated above.

I have no idea what the solution is. I know how easy it is to hide on the internet, so I don't know that registered accounts are going to do anyone any good. And asking people to be nicer is a waste of time, since even talking about the issue only seems to incite more of the same bile. And anyway that sounds kinda lame: "now everybody be nice!"

What #26 said.

Also, everyone knows this is about Mr. Poe. No need to say "so-in-so." The problem is Mr. Poe is a tremendous douchebag and we need a solution.

This guy has obviously never seen the comments on PerezHilton, Youtube or Digg. If you want inane comments galore, hit up Perez. If you want some violent hate speech, Youtube is a clear winner. Digg is close to Youtube, but is by far my favorite place for ignorant shut-ins populating the comment section.

In fact, go to Digg right now and check out some of the "hidden" comments about gay marriage- literally every entry pertaining to gays has 500 comments, and many of those will make your blood boil.

SLOG is saintly by comparison.

OP: I hope you die.

What, what are we supposed to say exactly?

Have you people ever read the comments of... well... ANY OTHER BLOG in the universe?

Particularly in Seattle, s[n]ark is the order of the day.

Jesus, why are some people in Seattle afraid of anything outside the first standard deviation of their preference?

@27: To complain about misandry is the most misogynistic thing a "person" can do.

Mr. Poe is SLOG mascot. SLOG without Mr. Poe would be sad indeed.

@ Mary

the vitrol is definitely correlated to the weather. I mean, after yesterday I didn't feel like being such an asshole to some people here, even if they follow me around from thread to thread.

Strongly Disagree / Disagree Somewhat / Neither Agree nor Disagree / Agree Somewhat / Strongly Agree

I'll give it a four (4). Like kids plane-wrecked on an island want their Piggie... there is SLOG.

You know what's worse than SLOG comments? EVERY OTHER PUBLICATION'S COMMENTS. Seriously, even look at SFGate. Makes SLOG look like Anne Landers.

@40 heh heh yeah I can see that. Of course today is bile-worthy again. Where's the damn sun?!

Jeez, just because other places on the internet are worse (and plenty are!) doesn't mean that Slog comments have to be such a shit pile.

Saying, "Hey I'm not the MOST ignorant/racist/sexist/cruel/hateful asshole on the web!" is not a crowning achievement.

90% of the time the comments here are nasty. The sad thing is, it doesn't have to be that way. With some moderated efforts and some community discipline, this could be a great place for vital regional discourse. There are a lot of smart people here, and if they'd stop trying to top each other on the insult/death threat/gross out scale, they could really do something great. If they wanted to. I guess that’s the catch.

I love how friendly and warm you guys are.

@39 Word.

Welcome to the Internet, John Doe!

The only person in recent memory who made threats was the douchebag that threatened to show up to Slog Happy with a baseball bat, and that person was on the side of John Doe here.

Sorry, but telling someone to kill themselves is not a death threat.

No doubt Mr. Poe's cobbler might want a bit of sugar to add to the tart, but let's not gang up on any one person.

Let's be honest with ourselves. I've said some awful stuff. So have many of the others here. I've said some things I've had to apologize for -- one can get taken away with the breathtaking anonymity of this place, especially when life has one down a bit and one feels like lashing out. At something. Anything. In such a case, I guess the nearest Chelsea Alvarez-Bell post will do...'

That's not to excuse some of what's been said. I'm honestly going to have to let my friend Mr. Poe speak for himself on some of his posts. However, let's resist the "Lord of the Flies" mentality to go after our bespectacled compatriot and, instead, perhaps -- just perhaps -- take a step back from the abyss and try to amuse a bit more than we shock. Let's certainly not pin all this on Poe.

So, to begin:

Q: What's the difference between a tweaker and a junky?

A: They'll both steal your money, but the tweaker will help you look for it.

Carry on.

I have seen a few posts that merited a raised eyebrow but never an alarm. I am a fairly recent slogger and I was surprised, at first, by how personal some of the commentary is. That said, it is also not all negative. I have received both positive and negative responses to my own comments and in my case, I have not felt unduly threatened. There is a culture here that supports a certain amount of raillery, but it is also very obvious that it is most practised by a few who can both dish it and take it.

I have no agenda in posting this. A letter came in about Slog commenters, and so I put it on Slog, where commenters could read it and discuss it, and not in the dead-tree edition of the Stranger, where it would just sit there, lifeless and cold, in soy-basked-ink glory, without Sloggers having the ability to respond.

Because the Slog is not as full of hate speech as other blogs, everything is fine? Wow, that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard.

"Officer, sure I hit my wife, but the guy next door hits his wife twice as much!"

I also gotta agree with Mr. Doe: the Stranger staff certainly isn't condemning the more hateful stuff in here, and that does look a little hypocritical.

FIRST!!!!

perez, you dumb faggot! ILUVZU!!

uh, what?

oh, shit, I posted to the wrong site!

@40,

You are such a crybaby.

I just don't get people who feel that online discourse requires niceness. One of the Internet's great qualities is the potential to argue passionately with people who, if you did it in person, could either be completely terrified of you or desire to punch you, and no one gets hurt.

Not that the place wouldn't necessarily benefit from user moderation, but many of those who demand politeness seem to really be more interested in controlling others, at some level.

With the misogynistic vitriol you allow on this site, I wouldn't be surprised if one of your contributors sued you for a hostile workplace environment.

You wouldn't let someone come into The Stranger offices and say shit like this, why would you let them do it on Slog?

Solution: use real names. Pseudonyms are what allow the internet to be a playground for small minds. What should be an open newspaper or TV channel is instead an open bathroom wall.

@56 -- this is hardly a "workplace." In fact, I'm willing to bet that 60%+ of hours wasted by Seattle workers in the $27 - $40 K/ year wage segment are wasted here. Add stovepipe jeans and a retro-beard, and you rocket to 92% of the hours wasted in that wage cohort.

Please, get your facts straight.

A. Birch Steen should write an editorial about Slog.

Sounds like someone just recently discovered the internet.

I think the reason that the current level of discourse is "allowed" is that the alternative is a vastly time-consuming and extremely subjective process of analyzing each and every comment and only passing through those that receive the official stamp of approval.

There's definitely been some over-the-top meanness lately. My solution is to speak up when things get ridiculous, letting the person victimized know that there are multiple opinions here, etc. Or telling Mr. Poe to shove it. He doesn't listen, of course, but it restores a sense of equilibrium. This is the Internet Way.

Also, as everyone else already said, John Doe is really full of crap if he claims that Slog bears any comparison at all to some of the truly hate-filled stuff out in Web World.

This is why I usually stick to the Innernette.

Personally, I think reddit wins hands down for misogyny. I had to stop commenting there because all the women hating was getting me down. I have never gotten that same impression from the SLOG.

Yes, the comments can be harsh, and I certainly think hard about what I write in order to avoid the wrath of some of the crueler commenters such as the infamous Mr. Poe. However, I have found this to be the same all over the internets. Anonymity can make people nasty and anyone who thinks the SLOG is unique in that respect needs to stop reading their kitten blogs and actually pay attention to the rest of the internet.

I agree with many of Doe's points.

Some of the commentors seem to really get something out of posting as much nasty, hateful crap as they can spew. I don't know whether they get their rocks off when someone takes them seriously, if they're just testing the limits of free speech, if they think it makes them sound "cool," or if they're just irresponsible morons who need to grow up and realize they're a big piece of the problem. Not the Slog problem; the "big" problem.

But hey, it's just the internet, right? People say worse things on Digg/MySpace/YouTube. That totally makes it ok. Besides, there's always the freedom of speech. We don't have to be responsible about what we say -- we're entitled to say whatever we like. And if it's bigoted or misogynistic? So what? Grow a thicker skin!

I'm sick of that attitude and wish people would quit acting like petty little shits just because they can.

@64 -- Nevermore.

@48: Hey, I was just kidding! Quit being so sensitive, or alternately, go kill yourself.

Just kidding! HAHAHAHA! Funny time on Slog!

Wow, I'm getting the hang of this. It's so easy once your brain dies.

Seriously though, is there a reason the Slog comments couldn't turn into an exception on the Internet, a place to discuss the important issues relevant to Seattle? You could use some Dorothy Parker style bitterness, without resorting to expressing wishes that people would kill themselves or calling people the worst names you can find on the web. The way it is right now, the wit and cleverness displayed in the Slog is on the same level as that seen in "Idiocracy".

Several people on here, with their desperate attempts to be the coolest, most jaded commenters on Slog remind me of the guy trying to be the coolest, most jaded guy at the underground punk show: decidedly uncool and a little sad. This is Slog, filled with fags and fatties and bike riders and weed smokers. What are you rebelling against?

If I was someone who had been repeatedly slammed on slog, one thing I might do is become a nasty commenter: share.

The Seattle Post-Intelligencer Soundoff commentary at the bottom of every article are less literate and more objectionable than anything here.

This person doesn't get out much. Maybe they should join LiveJournal.

@ 39 - that's the truth!
@ 55 - agree!

Reading the comments are at least half the enjoyment of SLOG I say. The discussions and the off the cuff flip remarks are all thought provoking.
"Alternative" - to me, means going beyond the general scope of things, beyond what's PC and polite sometimes.

@44 - "With some moderated efforts and some community discipline, this could be a great place for vital regional discourse."

BOR-ing...I'm not here for vital regional discourse.

And I always thought it was understood that the comments section of an entity did not in any way represent that entity's, erm, philosophy.
That being said, often Stranger contributers do jump in on a thread that's getting nasty and try to restore order, or at least call a racist a racist, etc.

Boo on censorship, John Doe.

I think Mr. John Doe is right about the level of hatred in certain slog posts. I'm not much of a slogger, but have been reading slog more frequently over the last few months. Sometimes the comments are very misogynistic, esp. on so many of ECB's posts about Clinton/Obama. I think that had a lot to do with the fact that ECB doesn't make very good arguments, but all the "Clinton/her supporters are cunts/bitches" comments get really old.

I do think Mr. John Doe generalized too much from these slog posts though. Overall, the comments on Slog are more interesting and well-written than other comment forums I've seen, and considering that the comments aren't moderated before posting that's very impressive. (Q: what kind of moderation exists now? I have yet to see a post using the n-word on slog.)

I think that some kind of community moderation (like hiding comments that receive a lot of negative ratings) could be a good compromise but don't know how difficult it would be to implement. Also, why is everyone naming Mr. Poe? He can be offensive, but is not the worst in my opinion.

I'm torn about this.

On the one hand, the comments section has gained a locker room of mean-spirited regulars who are apparently unaware that people don't like being called names, insulted, and harassed, even if--and where's the generosity of spirit?--the people harassing others are having loads of fun.

On the other hand, since they've significantly decreased the amount of on-topic comments, I've been saving a lot of time by not reading the Slog's comment threads and just reading posts via RSS.

I don't know that I've ever thought of the Slog or the Stranger as a beacon of civil discourse, but this isn't a question of whether there's no room for the belligerent rude people in life--it's whether they get to set the tone.

I think the reason that the current level of discourse is "allowed" is that the alternative is a vastly time-consuming and extremely subjective process of analyzing each and every comment and only passing through those that receive the official stamp of approval.

No, there's another alternative - user registration and moderation like that on Slashdot or Scoop-based sites. The crap-flingers can read comments raw and unfiltered, while others can set the threshold for quality (as decided by commenter consensus) higher.

But don't wait around for it. We've been told it's in the works for eons now.

What a candy ass.

@ everyone who's made this argument...

Explain again how "everybody else on teh interwebs is way worse!" is a justification for us being assholes on Slog?

I agree with @55, @58, @60. The Internets is not the real world. It is not a neighborhood pub or a coffee shop or a playground. It is a forum for free speech. I am not a regular commenter, but I will stop reading The Stranger if the Slog comments are in any way squelched or obstructed beyond the basic ground rules already in place. Dan - keep posting what you post. All - keep stream-of-consciousness commenting however the hell you want to comment. The Slog is for adults. I think we can handle it. Those who can't are free to go to a more "controlled" environment. I for one am not willing to pay that price.

Mr. Poe is nice compared to half the fuckers that comment on Slog. John Doe and Whats-her-face need to learn what the internet is, toot sweet.

When has there ever been a seriously homophobic comment on SLOG?

Slog comments in the top 5 for bad things on the internet? Up there with 2 Girls 1 Cup, nazi beheading videos, goatse, What What in the Butt, 4chan, rickrolls, and Icanhazcheezburger?

Yay us!

kesh, way to make my point. in fact in ignoring every other post in here, and the original post, you've exemplified the stalking behavior i was alluding to. I find it disturbing that you focus so intently on me and that I give you singular purpose for posting here.

I'll make a deal with you Kesh; you stop following me around with the expressed interest of attacking me for any reason you can come up with, and I'll buy you a box of skinny cow ice cream bars.

Nothing tops youtube comments. Nothing. Ever.

#61, I think you are sharp enough to realize that calling you a cow was merely a cleverly hilarious joke, yet you *still* snubbed me at Slog Happy. What gives?

You had your name tag on your ass. Thus, I did not see it.

I personally would be proud to be flayed by Mr. Poe. I wouldn't mind having him flame one of my comments, either.

Sad-Mad Billy raises his hands over the keyboard, poised to comment on how his douchebaggery lets him heal.

Mary Traverse @76:

Explain again how "everybody else on teh interwebs is way worse!" is a justification for us being assholes on Slog?

It's not justification. It's rebuttal of the assertion that Slog comments represent an extreme of nastiness. It corrects the context.

Context, the degree to which Slog comments deviate from cultural norms, weighs on how serious the issue is and thus on how serious a response is warranted.

As a longtime lurker, infrequent commenter, I've actually been reading comments this week BECAUSE of the Chelsea thing.

A while back I decided to stop reading the comments because the vitriol IS excessive, and I'm sorry, but the "everyone else on the internet is an asshole too!" argument is BULLSHIT. Seriously. Yeah, I expect the brain dead 15 years olds who spend all day commenting on youtube to be morons. But I had higher hopes for the Slog, because there's absolutely no reason why this couldn't be a fun place to interact and debate like fucking grown-ups.

I've been to plenty of forums (and moderated several) that are funny, smart, irreverent, dirty, and argumentative, without being cesspools of hate, just for the sake of shock and ignorance.

The worst thing about the comments, they're not even FUNNY vitriol (I'll forgive pretty much anything that makes me laugh). It's just mean and crazy shit that's not fun to read for anyone except the 4 or 5 people who love shouting into the void to see their names on the internet.

Anyway, back to lurking and reading the main articles, instead of shouting into the void myself.

Man, now I have What What (In the Butt) in my head. Which may actually be an improvement on Leto Svet.

Howard Johnson is right!

@81,

I regularly read comment threads without commenting on them, typically because I don't have anything to contribute but am curious about what other people are saying, or because many people have already said what I wanted to say.

I know this is going to deal a staggering blow to your persecution complex, but I read almost every comment thread with no thought to whether you've commented on it or to whether you've offered yet another asinine opinion with no basis in fact (and which you've never been able to defend with evidence when called out).

I attack you when you say something idiotic. You consistently prove my point about your persecution complex when you whine about my offering evidence that contradicts what you've said or when I so inconveniently ask you to defend your claims.

So, I tell you what. You actually read a few books and newspapers and learn something about how the world actually works (and about female anatomy) and stop making patently idiotic statements, and I'll leave you alone.

Oh, and this:

I'll buy you a box of skinny cow ice cream bars.

is an unbelievably pathetic insult. You really can't do any better, can you? What's next, are you going to regale us with your epic sense of humor?

@85

Got it. Yeah I agree Slog hardly represents the worst of the worst. At least most people here are literate. I certainly have seen much worse in my time.

Still, I'm not convinced that not being the worst, or even not deviating far from cultural norms, means the situation doesn't warrant a response. When posts veer so far from content into severe personal attacks... I don't know. I'm sure what should happen, obviously no one wants censorship.

On those occasions where Slog posts local news/stuff, you sometimes get extra details or rumors from the comments. I like that.

The worst comments I've seen have been on some of ECB's posts. I totally disagree with a number of her posts, but a lot of the comments are undeserved. Meanwhile, Chelsea Alvarez-Bell deserved (almost) every comment she got.

@86: You have one of the funniest blogs I've read in a long time. How come you stopped updating???

Yeah, really. Go back and look at old posts before Mr. Poe (and others, I guess) showed up. They were witty, insightful, funny, informative, snarky, profane, and smart. The meanest we had was ecce homo, and he was hilarious. Nobody was being called a cunt or a cow. Nobody was being told to kill themselves. Ah, the good old days. It even seems like loveable regulars like Fnarf and Will in Seattle have slowed down their posting because their clever comments are getting drowned out by this shit.

And, it took until #81 for the first douchebag comment. I think that's a record!

No. 13 (and I skipped reading all the comments after that):

The Stranger's relatively early adoption of a blog, moving from being the best news source in Seattle on a weekly basis to the best news source in Seattle on an hourly basis, was typical of your great energy. We're lucky to have you, especially because the Seattle dailies are dangerously bad and your other competition appears to be aimed at 13-year-old readers. However, as I learned when my "comment identity" was co-opted by Stranger insiders (after I told Dan to suck my dick and made fun of his boyfriend), this energy appears to come from deep insecurity. Journalist thing? We also found out much much later that Dan was going through an unusually rough year.

When I discovered the commentable Slog, I thought you'd invented something that was not only extraordinarily useful and interesting, but a public forum Seattlites badly need. We have no piazzas where we stroll of an evening in our hottest outfits, eying each other and trading gossip. There's a tendency to uproot and move to Seattle, gain 30 pounds, and disappear into a suburban living room with cable. The Slog comments were a chance to learn what was up in the city, add information to a story, share eyewitness accounts, and exercise our dulled brains with the unaccustomed effort of communication.

I think both sides contributed to the current comments issues. I'm sorry the Stranger's writers are feeling pressure. Sometimes I think the Stranger's writers are the hardest working people in Seattle, and sometimes they've saved my bacon with unique, valuable information. The Stranger did start out as a punk rag, but that's not the reason for the current comments tone, although it was the reason for my tone, before I had to stop reading the Stranger because the "Amelia" character you'd created had written ten times more than I ever would and developed a full-blown personality. (Yes, her interest in interpretive dance and her angst about puppy abuse and Chileans eating their endangered ibises were fucking funny.) It was so playground though, especially the way you helped make a sow's ear out of a silk purse. You are professional writers, used to churning out reams of material, and only you had access to the e-mail address I entered for each of my posts to prove my bona fides. You also couldn't leave it alone after the initial jokes. It made me wonder if your gossip columnist had announced a contest and people thought their jobs might be at stake.

May I suggest a technical solution, since this is a technical town? Permanent commenter identities. I'd really love to go back to reading the Slog more often, and once you've commented anything else becomes boring.

And maybe if Seattle had some kind of roofed piazza where people would stroll of an evening in our hottest clothes eying each other, we'd all be less fat, suicidal, and weakly vicious. I'm just saying.

I used to be a member of a knife forum. Those fuckers were scary. You guys, not so much.

I doubt many of you are even within 150% of your ideal body weight from gluttonous ingestion of AM/PM food and can barely ascend the stairs from your mom's unfinished basement where you reside at 33 years old, single, desperately addicted to furry porn, without being seized by paroxysms of dry hacking unproductive coughing brought on by your 2.5 packs of marlboro reds/day you suck down.

Scared? Disgusted is more like it.

also in fear @93

Go back and look at old posts before Mr. Poe (and others, I guess) showed up. ... The meanest we had was ecce homo, and he was hilarious. Nobody was being called a cunt or a cow.

Wait.  ecce homo is being compared favorably to Mr. Poe--to anyone--for meanness?!

Is also in fear an intentional troll, or reality challenged at a Dubya level?

@95, how are we supposed to get to AM/PM if we can't even get up the stairs? Your story has too many plot holes, please revise.

I'm not sure what to think of the lurkers who are complaining about the nastiness of the comment threads. On one hand, I'm sorry that they feel too intimidated to contribute. On the other hand, I'm finding hard not to feel some measure of contempt. If all those fair-minded lurkers out there are truly disgusted by the vitriol on Slog, then they should comment, they must comment. The more they comment, the easier it is to drown out the haters.

Letter writer is wrong about the severity of the problem, but still has a point. You're (we're?) a bunch of potty-mouthed sociopaths.

@97: Thanks
@Everyone else: See? That wasn't so hard. Concise, snarky, no gratuitous hate.

There are a lot of smart people here, and if they'd stop trying to top each other on the insult/death threat/gross out scale, they could really do something great.

Ain't gonna happen...but c'mon, that's half the fun of slog, to get this crap out in public that isn't OK, isn't it?

And those of you shocked...get over it. This is SLOG. Not second grade. You're going to be crucified.

In fact, I expect to be so done for this post.

I've never been part of a band of sociopaths before, what does that entail exactly? I'm not really into that Clockwork Orange shit, OK?

In a surprising twist, I have absolutely nothing to contribute to this discussion.

*sigh* yet another by-product of the Chelsea Alvarez-Bell debacle, by the sound of it.

@ 98

I'm not sure I'm one of the folks that's directed at, and I'm only speaking for myself here, but I do comment when I have something to say (usually as Mary T, sometimes as Mary Traverse). More often than not I'm a reader. It's not fear that keeps me from posting, just lack of time or anything interesting to contribute. But I don't think that lack of commenting makes me any less of the Slog community. Avid readers have as much interest in this issue as the commenters.

also in fear @22:

Also, death threats are not protected speech and dozens (hundreds?) of people have been convicted for making online death threats. If any sloggers were district attorneys, Mr. Poe would be in jail for life.

also in fear @

Also, everyone knows this is about Mr. Poe. No need to say "so-in-so." The problem is Mr. Poe is a tremendous douchebag and we need a solution.

Ok, also in fear's handle is a flat out lie.  This death threat bullshit is no more than a personal vendetta against Poe.

I'm not aware that anyone on Slog (besides Daniel Freykis & co.) has ever made a serious threat of violence.  Police involvement or Amy Kate getting a subpoena might indicate otherwise, but the melodrama on display here does not.

By the way, can we stop talking about this yet? I don't come here for self-introspection and speculation regarding why the internet is the way it is, I come here to read, comment and meet strange and interesting people that I can get drunk with at Slog Happy.

EVERYONE ELSE, whether this John Doe character, the folks at Gawker, A. Birch Steen, or even the late Ms. Alvarez-Bell need to get a grip and realize that they take us much more seriously than we take ourselves.

@104 -- Astoundingly important point. Readers are to commenters are as heterosexual parents are to their children: without them, we wouldn't be here.

Whoops.  The second quote @105 is from also in fear @34.

Keshmeshi - Your suggestion is appreciated, but ignoring the dumbasses and focusing in on considering what other (interesting, funny, sarcastic, etc.) people are commenting is not only appropriate, but is also requisite for a lurker.

@104,

Sorry, I should have made it more clear, but I forgot to mention it in my comment.

I was talking more about the lurkers who are apparently so intimidated they don't even use the same handle more than once. also in fear appears to be one of them and there have been others claiming that they're not using the same handle out of fear of incurring Mr. Poe's wrath.

Come on, guys. What's the worst Mr. Poe could do to you?

kesh, i do read newspapers and I do read books and when I asked to prove something I either do or I dont based on whether some of it is worth digging for. I know how the world works in some ways and not in others but I feel pretty comfortable with the knowledge I have and where to obtain more.

Kesh, proving that tax shelters exist or that people move to municipalities to avoid certain taxes isn't something that needs proving beyond what you can look up yourself.

I don't feel persecuted by anyone. It's part of my privilege. I feel like you follow me around waiting to leap out of the ethers and go "PROVE IT! OH SEE, YOU CANT SO YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT!" That isn't persecution, that's a cult following consisting of only you.

And really, you wouldn't comment in more than half the threads if I didn't post there because often times i'm the only opposing viewpoint. Do you have any friends or communicate with anyone that has a differing viewpoint only so you can badger them into googling bls.gov?

i think your problem kesh is that you simply can't accept that someone might be right about something that fundamentally blows a hole in what you wish to believe true or what you wish others to believe and you thusly label them idiotic. or pathetic. or whatever dismissive and diminutive tone you want to use.

or you have aspergers and don't get jokes.

why was the skinny cow offer pathetic? do you need two boxes? oh i get it, you might actually be fat and to hide that you label it as pathetic.

(1) "Homophobic?!?"

(2) Regulars by and large never flame n00bs. Will vs Fnarf, kesh vs Bellevue, dolphin fucker vs Dan Supported the War- *much* more common. Chelsea Whatshername-Majortriteness got flamed because she was given special powers all the regulars were willong to pay THOUSANDS of dollars for and did mediocre work.

(3) I'll point out that last Freaky Friday 95% of the comments were respectful.

(4) I love lurkers I've never heard of before stepping up and saying all us regulars are assholes. "You all are vile to ECB!" No shit buddy, and when I point that out I'm one of only a few to do so. Where the fuck are all you Manners Police when it matters?

There's nothing wrong with the SLOG the way it is. I happen to support registration, but if you're looking for Charlie Rose, move along.

@111 -- That kind of comment is like saying "Beetlejuice" three times fast.

Will you please be quiet please.

I visit the Slog periodically throughout the day, but I'm not a member of the Commenter Clique and do not view the comments for every post. Lacking intimate familiarity with every member of the Clique, however, doesn't prevent me from recognizing a comment like "find a noose and use it" as snark and nothing more. There's rarely any true malice behind the words,and certainly no true threat - nor are they intended to be interpreted as such. This is a venue in which a show of displeasure can be taken to extremes because extremes are FUN and we're all interacting through a bunch of pixels anyway, so who cares?

The Chelsea situation was unique - but had she reacted with mettle, it wouldn't have been such a big deal.

I wish Sloggers could take credit for widening the definition of witty banter to include death threats and other vile remarks, but that honor would more likely go to whomever started the first BBS back in the early days of the 'net.

It was funny back then, too.

@100: I win! Woo! Now I totally want a trophy.

I'll let you know if he shows up in my living room in a bad suit with a sad little goth girlfriend.

@117 -- Frankly, I like your odds...

All of this could have been prevented if only someone had taken Chelsea Alvarez-Bell aside, early on, and said, "Chelsea, it's called irony. Google it, sweetie."

But now the drama queen is out of the fag hag bag. Damn you, Mr. Poe! Damn you! Damn you!

@116 Maybe CAB is through with the one she gave herself last Friday and will pass it along.

Hey, we haven't heard from one of our band of merry sociopaths yet, yoo hoo Fnarf? Fnarf?

If any sloggers were district attorneys, Mr. Poe would be in jail for life.

PopTart, you have magic summoning powers!

Huh.  The comments so far on ECB's latest post seem to contain actual discussion.

But hey, it's early yet.

i really wish the comments here were moderated. it seems like the sites that don't bother moderating comments get boatloads of hateful shit under every post.

i don't mean to suggest that moderating should strike posts for language or agreeable-ness, only for irrelevance and for attacks on other posters. those things should never be allowed.

Sorry: @119 should have read "the drama queen cat is out of the fag hag bag."

How much you wanna bet Chelsea Clinton-Gore will think I'm a homophobe when she reads that and/or this? Oh, what a tangled web the irony-challenged weave for us...

I think there is at least a tiny bit of moderating here - whenever the Savage Stalkers show up and take over every damned comment thread on Slog, someone eventually comes and clears them out.

I think the comments here sometimes do turn nasty. But when they do, I either stop reading the comments for that thread, or I dive in the fray and give my 2 cents. No one forces me to read the crap that offends me, and overall it's a self-moderated bunch.

I would not favor moving toward registered posters on Slog. I read Seattlest just about as much as Slog during the day, but stopped posting when they moved to a register-only system. And there's not exactly a huge community discourse going on over there: few of their posts get comments at all.

I'm sorry I didn't read the previous 123 posts, but has this person ever read a comment section other than the Betty Crocker recipe page? If she really wants to gag all she has to go to the Hillary Clinton website or the Bill Orally site.

i'm a little late to the discussion.. but anydangways..a while back before the ecb wars i got my feelings royally trounced and hurt by ecce homo, the meanest vilest person i'd ever encountered. it was frightening to me because i'm a fairly public person and i hadn't a clue to his identity and still don't. his shtick was racist which he claims he wasn't aware of, creatively vitriolic ( i believe he or one of his minions called me a 'nig nog' )and gleefully personal. his spew attracted a few trolls who took his balls and ran with it. it disheartened and depressed me for days and at one point i told more than a few people that i was done with slog and thought that was that. but two things happened. he got called on his idiocy and i developed a thicker skin. later slog did adopt some rules about rudeness and off topic attacks were monitored and deleted. and you can't use the 'n' word (there is some kind of automatic filter that rejects a post when you type it in. which i happen to disagree with philosophically, but am damn glad i don't have to read it in context of dr king ). what i've found to be of ultimate importance is how the slog community deals with the nastiness. read it long enough and you realise it's not all meaness, some people have your back and it feels like it gets worked out. so i guess what i'm trying to say is .. get a thicker skin, deal with it, learn from it and realise that after the dust settles there is a community of people who have your back.. unless you're an ass. and sometimes you deserve to get your ass handed to you on a platter. it clears the head. or like they say ' if it doesn't kill you, it'll make you stronger'.

I think it needs to be allowed to present itself and then beaten down with a stick, versus being banned and hidden from view

Well said, Mr Cornball.

@128 -- You, sir, are one of Seattle's cultural lions. Thank you for your musical art.

@129 -- Aww shucks.

I think that the removal of threats from the comments would be not censorship, but instead an honest attempt to guard freedom of speech. When a writer is threatened, their freedom is put at risk.

This is a BLOG and it is NOT the real world. Take nothing here seriously. Behave in the real world like you behave here and your nose would be broken several times over by now. HEADS UP!

@112,

why was the skinny cow offer pathetic? do you need two boxes? oh i get it, you might actually be fat and to hide that you label it as pathetic.

Now that's just sad.

I do like your circular reasoning though. Since I called your junior-varsity fat-baiting pathetic (I mean, really, has reading Slog taught you nothing?), that must mean I'm fat. Great, so when you whine about my saying you're full of shit, that must mean you really are full of shit.

And really, you wouldn't comment in more than half the threads if I didn't post there because often times i'm the only opposing viewpoint.

So I should only argue with people I agree with. You're contradicting yourself. If you're the only opposing viewpoint on those threads, then of course I'm going to challenge you if I disagree with you. And, by the way, a number of moderates and conservatives occasionally comment on Slog. David Wright comes to mind. I'm not certain that I've ever expressed disagreement with him, not because I agree with everything he says, but because: 1. Most of his conclusions are actually based on facts and good-faith arguments (i.e. he's not an ignorant numbskull). 2. I get plenty of wonky arguments elsewhere.

i think your problem kesh is that you simply can't accept that someone might be right about something that fundamentally blows a hole in what you wish to believe true or what you wish others to believe and you thusly label them idiotic. or pathetic. or whatever dismissive and diminutive tone you want to use.

No, this has to do with your opinions not being based on facts, on things that are actually true or on good-faith interpretations. To wit:

Kesh, proving that tax shelters exist or that people move to municipalities to avoid certain taxes isn't something that needs proving beyond what you can look up yourself.

First off, you didn't merely state that rich people often try to avoid paying taxes. Instead you claimed that there's no point in raising taxes because rich people will find a way out of it. This claim has no basis in fact, period, and I merely demanded that you prove this ludicrous assertion. Unfortunately, I wasn't surprised to see that you resorted to deflection and personal attacks to avoid owning up to your claims.

First, some rich people are already using tax shelters, loopholes, and plain, old-fashioned deductions to avoid paying taxes. So, according to your logic, the government should reduce rich people's tax burden to zero, since they'll just find a way to get out of paying taxes anyway.

Second, even though some rich people are currently trying to get out of paying their taxes, their contribution to our tax revenue is pretty much the same percentage as the maximum income tax rate. This suggests that the few rich people resorting to any means possible to avoid taxes are an aberration.

Third, in order for your claim to be true (that there's no point in raising taxes on the rich since they'll just find a way out of it) whenever tax rates on the rich are increased, there would have to be no subsequent increase in the percentage of tax revenue collected from rich taxpayers. I've yet to see any evidence of this. It sure would've been nice if you could have tried to provide it, rather than whine, deflect, and attack me.

Fourth, in order for your other claim to be true, that rich people will simply leave the city, state, or country where taxes have been raised (to the point where there's no point in raising taxes), there has to be evidence of a massive rich people's exodus whenever their taxes are raised. So, let's have it. Let's see evidence of an exodus during the New Deal when steep marginal tax rates were enacted. Let's see evidence that rich people fled screaming from Sweden when marginal tax rates were enacted there.

Let's see proof, Bellevue Ave. Prove what you've said and stop fucking whining.

Hear, hear, Dr. Riz.

Also, one needs to realize that rabidly out-of-all-proportion personal attacks is in most cases simply a rhetorical device. No Slogger ACTUALLY wants his or her opponents on the issue of, say, bicycle lanes to die in a chemical fire. But it's funny to say so. Yes, really, it is. The more trivial the issue -- and it doesn't get much more trivial than talking about a popular movie -- the more vitriolic the response -- and the greater the nyuk-nyuks.

It's possible that this is juvenile, but it is not possible to actually fear for one's life. If you have a brain.

It's also true that internet argument style frequently involves the wind-up. Calling a black man a "nig nog" does not always mean that the namecaller is a racist; it can often mean instead that the namecaller believes that the maximum attack will create the maximum pain and maximum anger. This can in some circumstances be fun to watch.

Ecce homo likes to play this game, but he doesn't understand how, so he just comes across as a clueless social incompetent, and the distinction between "racist shithead" and "wind-up artist" loses its meaning.

And if you disagree with me on any of these points, you're a NAZI.

#134

Isn't it sad how when you have to explain a joke, it ceases to be funny?

:(

It's just that Slog has reached the point where metadiscussion, about Slog, is the most popular topic. We've all seen each other's moves by now.

@134 -- I think calling a black person a nig nog is completely unnecessary for the purposes of a windup. I'll stop short of proclaiming all who would do this racist, but I feel comfortable calling the act itself racist.

There are plenty of ways to wind someone up to the point of watching their heads explode without invoking race, gender-specific organs, or other such "smart bomb" language.

One hopes that we could do without this kind of ugly, incendiary bullshit here.

If you act like an asshole, you will be treated like an asshole and flamed unmercifully. If you act like Mister Rogers you often won't get a response either positive or negative. Some people just simply want attention and will prefer the former to the latter. Not my style but to each their own.

I'm opposed to further regulation of Slog. The trolls usually get what's coming to them, and those who post under various aliases instead of their regular nom de plume are generally recognized as the gutless cowards that they are. And no one is forcing anyone else to read Slog or to comment. All comments here are completely unsolicited (except PopTart's appeal to Fnarf above). Of course just because no one asked for your opinion doesn't mean you can't share it--after all, that's what this space is for--but if you choose to participate you have to be prepared for the consequences.

By the way, I don't know why Mr Poe is being singled out. He is not the most offensive, even among the regulars.

Check out the lint in my belly button.

late to the party!

w7ngman, is #30 misogynistic? Well, the second part. if it is, will that $1 go to planned parenthood or something?

@49, i think the piggy analogy is a little strained, given that it is only now that Mr. Poe is being ostracized, and not even fully.

finally, @138, i wholeheartedly agree to the first paragraph of your post. A lot of the ignorant bullshit that gets thrown around is for attention.

@140 -- All well and good, but the ostracizing has to start somewhere and I saw it starting. I think the reference is sound.

Carry on.

Are you reading what you're writing & thinking about what John Doe said? I moved to Seattle, lived here for over a year, then moved again. A big part of the reason I moved was because people were so unfriendly.

I still read The Stranger & the Slog months after having moved. I feel like the writers are family members. But I read comments & am disgusted. There is so much nastiness. I miss Seattle, but I read comments on the Slog, & I'm reminded this is a city I don't want to live in anymore. So go ahead & trash me now. That's what it's all about, right?

@142 --

http://www.payphone-directory.org/sounds/wav/bell/disconnected.wav

I've sounded off on here mostly to see what other commenters would have to say about this after Dan's comment--if only for the reason of not "swaying" the topic to see if it would actually change anything. It did. Which surprised me. But that could also be likely to the topic at hand here and how it's looking at us, especially looking at me.

I know this. I acknowledge this. And I'm going to continue to talk about frivolous shit in my attempts to bust a laugh or two, tasteless shit to bust out a laugh myself at the responses, and serious rants that clearly show I'm a 22-year-old inexperienced and uneducated moron. Which is nothing short of awesome, really. It blows my mind how so many of you take any of this shit to heart. If Slog actually hurts your feelings, you have other problems to take care of right now and adjusting Slog to your standards really shouldn't be at the top of your list.

I have never threatened anyone's life on Slog.

I'm really confused with #94.

@144 -- If you were human I would give you a hug right now.

As far as #94 goes, apparently she's looking for a roofed pizza or something. Sounds like she needs to move to Chicago. Via Tribunale has turned this into a thin crust town.

"thinking" said:

i really wish the comments here were moderated. it seems like the sites that don't bother moderating comments get boatloads of hateful shit under every post.

I have yet to see boatloads of hateful shit in this post, for instance. In fact, if anything, the comments on this post would seem to make a pretty good case for things being relatively okay.

w7ng: I did not purposefully snub anyone at slog happy. Make sure you introduce yourself to me next time, though, so I can put my nose in the air, toss my hair back, and stalk majestically away.

@144: That's such a nig nog response. Suck a bullet and die.

kesh, read what i said; if you raise taxes make sure you raise them in a way that the rich can't avoid paying them.

i can't help if youre attacking the strawman of "we shouldnt raise taxes because the rich WILL find a way to avoid them"

fact: people try to avoid paying taxes and there are many guides in tax planning to do this.
fact: some forms of tax are easily avoided by people who have the means to find ways to avoid them
fact: there are certain ways to tax people that are unavoidable

again, you're attacking a strawman, so i don't feel compelled to provide evidence for a position I dont have.

and every opinion i have is based in fact. you don't like the facts as i understand them or you purposely misconstrue my words to mean something they don't.

theres nothing circular about presuming you're fat if all you do is dodge the claim. it might not have much to do with anything but the character you push across; fat, angry, feminist with an axe to grind against a male, financially conservative, goofball.

monorail tab tax lead to registering of cars in other counties. that's one off the top of my head to boot. i dont feel compelled to provide any more evidence that tax avoidance happens or that taxing schemes should be structured to prevent it as much as possible.

Bellevue Avenue & keshmeshi -- neither of you feel compelled to respond to the other, but it's clear the erotic energy between the two of you is reaching epic proportions.

Said simply, if you two don't have sexual congress soon, the entire Capitol Hill area could be washed away in a lahar of unrequited lust. You kids clearly wanna make the beast with two backs and I say, "Go for it! With my blessing!"

I suspect you will have quintuplets, all of whom will be born with Dior ties and trendy eyeware. Don't get them wet, or feed them after midnight.

and look at the tax rates (income and sales) between new york state and Connecticut and the per capita income between those two states. and isn't Connecticut home to people that commute NYC for work?

"I have seldom seen a more ignorant, hate-filled miasma of crap in my life. I’m on the Internet a lot;"

Ok, those two statements are fundamentally inconsistent, unless the only sites you read "a lot" are CNN and icanhascheezburger.

Slog is by far the tamest of the online forums I read regularly, and I avoid the real nasties. Youtube commenters are dumber, Farkers are more homophobic, Diggers are more misogynistic, and why don't you check out 4chan sometime. On second thought, don't--you might die of shock, and I don't want you to construe this comment as a death threat.

You claim to have seen one death threat on Slog--I've been in forums where death threats constitute half the comments, and are generally accompanied by disturbing, if anatomically impossible, details. Anonymity breeds Internet Tough Guys and brings out the worst in us all. Learn to deal or GTFO (look it up).

the difference in median property taxes between both states is negligible to boot.
so if this isn't an example of at least some plausible way that some people, especially rich people move to different locales for tax purposes, then either you're purposely ignoring a plausible connection or you have an alternative hypothesis as to why people choose to live in certain locales yet commute to others.

i've already provided a hypothesis for why people live in the locations they do, but you ignored that.

There are a few exceptions (threads that actually develop and expand upon a post), but, as time passes, more and more of the regular commentators make asinine statements which leads to my skimming over and ignoring larger parts of the comments.

The result of this generally low level of SLOG comments is that, after a while, there is no intelligent witty interaction to enjoy, no growth, no fun. It seems instead, there are mostly poorly informed opinions and/or attempted shocking put downs. All face and no substance.

In short, SLOG comments have become boring. This is one reason why I've stopped posting and reading as much.
I suspect other readers feel the same way. For the Stranger, this low level of intellectual engagement fundamentally limits: what SLOG can be, where it can go and whether it can be relevant beyond the enclave.

The result is that there are sincere engaged Stranger writers trying to make a difference in the world, whose efforts are hamstrung by the papers' adherence to a free-for-all medium where reasoned discourse and persuasion do not thrive.

What do you want SLOG to be?

@138. I am so Mister Rogers : )

I'm going to have nightmares tonight that Mr. Poe the big teddy bear is trying to kill me with gummy bears!

Even I have given a few death wishes on slog and I'm Polly Anna!

you also have to consider the deductions for state income tax on federal taxes.

No, check out the lint in MY belly button.

In short, SLOG comments have become boring. This is one reason why I've stopped posting and reading as much. I suspect other readers feel the same way. For the Stranger, this low level of intellectual engagement fundamentally limits : what SLOG can be, where it can go and whether it can be relevant beyond the enclave.

Is Sex in the City on tonight? Did you read that article in the New Yorker? Do you have any blow?

Anyone see that France-Italy game?

AELLEVUE BVE, STOP TORMENTING ME!

@150 Nice use of the word lahar, that's one you don't get to throw around every day.

@158 My nail polish is called Chancellor what's that about?

@159 -- do you know what it does to me to think of 22 uncut studs?

@162- that Luca Toni's a handsome one, isn't he? Too bad he's been mostly useless...

@163 -- I wanna make Robin van Persie my bitch.

Dr. Riz,

I had no idea that little ole' me had such a profound effect on your life. I figure you would have had a thicker skin given your horrible on air voice and penchant for mundane and horrible music.

The mention I made of Dr. Kings foibles as a human being was not racist, but rather an admiration of the man. Yes, he was a philanderer (a fact), and there are rumors of pederasty (or at least some inappropriate behavior) and he was definately a communist. All of these FACTS don't diminish the man, unless you also think that Jesus being tempted by Satan diminishes him at all. They trounce and transcend petty and ignorant judgement. They allow us to appreciate the man for all he was.

The fact that it was deleted only demonstrates the typical neo-liberal claptrap that has ensnared so many of the strangers staff (Including Erica who so enjoys deleting my posts).

Fnarf, I play no games. With me you get what you get. Nothing more, nothing less. Mr. Poe is an annoying little butt trollop whose only contribution to this world will be he death (not the least too soon). You however, will likely pollute the net with your banal meanderings long after anyone has ceased to care about your weekend trips to the farmers market, your adoration for your elderly spinster wife, or your facination with Elton John.

Oh, and Dan is still a shitty parent, but at least he has stopped making DJ the adopted familial equivalent of a Fubu running suit.

@155: Always a pleasure to hear from you, mj. Won't you be my neighbor?

@150 and 161: I thought Lahar was a city in Pakistan...

I thought France-Italy was kind of dull compared to some of the stunners we've had so far. I do think Thierry Henry is the best "Who, Me?" actor on foul calls in the world, though some of the Italians are up there.

I personally don't mind the vitriol even half as much as I mind how the Slog comments have gone so god damned meta.

The lesson, as always: progressives are either earnest or fun, and never both.

Oh, and one other thing: it's the Internet! If you don't like the Slog, fucking start your own forum somewhere like about 234727 other people have somehow managed to figure out how to do before you.

(Sure, you won't have the content or the brand recognition driving gobs of local traffic to you without any effort on your part, but on the other hand you don't seem to like most of the local traffic here anyway, so.)

Without reading the rest of the comments that likely prove the letters point, I'll just say ya I agree with the point made by Mr John Doe.

Carry on.

@164: Mmm, Robin. (Although I think I prefer Cesc Fabregas, despite him being a little young.)

@167: it was, but there has been a surprisingly high standard for games at this tournament. Perhaps it's the lack of England? (Thierry may be old, losing it, and a too-fabulous actor, but I'm still hoping those rumors of him coming to the Sounders have some truth in them.)

Ah, the life cycle of the internet. (No, things really weren't any better in the "old days." You just think they were.)

Also, I'd love to see the new ad-rate sheet the Stranger is undoubtedly putting out soon, after all the page views this has caused.

Oooooooo! Somebody said something bad about Fnarf. Get out!

This is the acid-trip mother of all SLOG posts.

Freak out, everyone! It's the Internet!

see ? ecce homo (#165)likes to pee in the pool just cuz and then complain that nobody likes him because they can't handle his overeagerness to point out ' neo liberal clap trap'and while his reference to dan's parenting is closer to his bile of the past, now that he's been declawed it has the bite of fat free vanilla pudding. john doe shouldn't be scared of him or anybody here like him. and he shouldn't be anonymous either.

I think that Mr. Doe's point about The Stranger running articles that at least appear to condemn mysogyny and then celebrating mysogynists is a very good one.

The fixation on Mr. Poe is somewhat confusing to me. Obviusly Poe says some awful, inexcusable things. But it was very clear to me right from the first day I read Slog that he was either not serious or so stupid as to not be taken seriously at all. The commenters who scare me are those who really do try to support or explain ill-founded ideas.

I have been horrified and dishearted by the rampant misogyny in particular. I am grateful to the small group of commenters who do regularly speak up against it. If I had more time, I would comment more often than what usually amounts to random brief comments in support of ECB or Jen.

D'oh! Perhaps I should either hang myself (or is it that I need to get laid) because of my inability to spell "misogyny". Sorry. It is very, very late on the East Coast...

Surely you mean early, ja?!

Bored now. Nothing will change. Can we move on?

If anyone thinks SLOG commenters are mean or rude or some shit, you're wrong. Hell, the World of Warcraft forums are rougher than here, and they have forced registration and complete control over preventing fake people from registering since you have to have an account to post.

Well, up to 179, so I really can't say much that hasn't already been said. Big Sven down at 113 sums up many of my feelings.

What I'm REALLY confused about is the alleged misogyny. While present in specific instances, it's nowhere NEAR as rampant as some people here are claiming it is.

I've been reading the Slog for several months and I've never felt threatened by other comments. And I've left MANY other sites -- mostly gaming and tech sites -- because of hateful, sexist bullshit. I find the Slog a refreshing experience in comparison, and I think I've found an internet home for a little while longer.

ECB gets a boatload of shit, but I've noticed that's often people crawling out of the woodwork to scream at her. Any malice towards her by regular commentators is just disdain, or criticizing her legitimately. Yeah, I think she takes the sexism thing over the top sometimes; does this mean I hate her because she's a woman?

I'm in favour of maintaining the current system. I find Slog comments are just the right mix of intelligence and humour. Tellingly, every post here that goes on and on about constructive, inclusive environments for local dialogue on regional topics were dreeeeeeary to read.

And yeah, buck up, John Doe. The rest of the internet doesn't excuse whatever sin you think Slog commentators have committed, but please, place it in context. Far, far, far from the worst.

I love the circle jerk that forms every time a post is about the commenters instead of something important.

@166 A lahar is a mudflow from a sudden explosion of a volcano............

This is not my beautiful house!

Leeeeeeeeeeetting the days go by!

i can't believe people are honestly suggesting the censorship of comments. does no one believe in freedom of speech anymore?

Dear John Doe,

We appreciate your letter on this matter. However, if you regularly read the Slog, you would know the following reasons why people are "mean" to other commentors:

1) a comment made is something completely false, or most likely incorrect
2) There is a rivalry (see Big Sven's explaination)
3) They are trolls (found all over the internet)
4) The commentor is well known to make bad comments, and due to this reason, get piled on (see: Will in Seattle).
5) The comment makes no sense, or is off-topic (all ecce's comments)

Also, please note that the following reasons there are negative comments on the actual blog posts/authors:

1) The author misspelled a word or had generally bad grammar
2) The subject matter is controversial
3) The topic is dumb, or argument not well thought out.
4) A mixture of the above

You see, John Doe, people like ECB actually write controversial material, and therefore her posts have more controversial comments. Golob writes science posts, so his comments tend to be from people who challenge his ideas (so they are a lot more 'sciencey smart' then most threads) Remember that Charles post about the kid who ran over his adopted sister? How is Charles opinion any more offensive than the comments that have been said on this blog?

The majority of comments on here are hilarious or otherwise enjoyable. If you read the comments more often, maybe you would get the running gags and jokes. You would get the banter, or understand the wit. If you had the guts to post a comment, maybe you would see it isn't so bad. Instead, you are like a 13 year old wandering into an R rated movie half way through. You just don't get it.

And you probably never will.

Yours Truly,

The regular commentors

I am not afraid to admit that I genuinely fear Kermit the SLOG Frog. He looks really weird, plus I don't understand the lyrics of that song at all. Stop the weirdo before he kills me again!!!

Original Monique @189,

You nailed it, child. No wonder your initials sound like The Holy Syllable!

oh, this is futile.

I rarely comment because I'm usually too busy but I love the comments on here and I'd hate to see them go. I love the rivalries especially and am always entertained by Fnarf and WiS. I think @150 was right - whadya say Bellevue Ave and Kesh? I'd go to the next Slog Happy if I knew you two were going to meet up there and I'd get to witness it. You two see each other, grumble a greeting, start arguing about something, get all worked up and leave together in a rush...

The comments (and commenters) make this place fun.

Well said Original Monique.

192!!!

I win muddafukkas!!

Well, DJ Dr. Riz,

Considering your background, I will overlook your ignorance. It is not my fault you were raised in the ghetto by crack whores who used to trade you around to maximize welfare checks. Your accomplishments, while small compared to mine, are still admirable. However, try not to tread in a pool that is too deep for your underclass education.

Now get back to your grape drink...

Ecce out.

Rather than reading the (extremely predictable!) "discussion" from the usual suspects in the comments above, I'd really be more interested in hearing what the Stranger editors and staff think about all this.

Hahaha -- See, this is the kind of troll we need. None of this "kill urself u fat cow" shit coming from Bellevue Ave and Mr Poe. We need good old fashioned hilarious sexist/racist/classist/homophobic rants from Ecce Homo to remind us who we are and where we came from.

I would very much like to see a comment battle between Mr. Poe and Ecce Homo. Please arrange this, thanks.

Ecce fan out.

@197: I think that's Mr. Doe's point, that The Stranger claims they have no control or opinion on the comments here. In truth, they have absolute control but choose to divorce themselves from responsibility, and in some cases, they give a big thumbs-up to the community here.

In other words, they are pulling a "Schultz" (from Hogan's Heroes): "I know NOTHINGK!!!"

i don't post too often, however i am a frequent reader of slog.
i love mr. poe.
thank you for making me laugh.
i hate my job.

remember kids:

http://www.internetisseriousbusiness.com

now, quick! to the Romerocopter!

"This just in - The internet is full of mean people! Story at 11!"

thank you mr e. homo.
that's the first time something you wrote made me chuckle. the days are brighter now. love is back in the air.

Jesus fuck. What did you all do before SLOG exited?

Jesus fuck. What did you all do before SLOG existed?

204 comments! I'm levitating with laughter.

The problem with registration is that it's a pain in the ass. If you think the Slog comments are already too dominated by the usual suspects, wait till the only people who comment are the ones who find it worthwhile to go through yet another crap user interface for registering.