All this transparency and accountability. Kind o' weird in today's America. Isn't it the thing to blame drinking or something?
A forthright explanation of things will do but public opinion demands at least one round of the blame game.

Resignation seems unnecessary... I don't really get it. It's a freakin' blog. "conflict of interset" - gimme a break... just about every media outlet in Seattle operates with some level of conflict of interest. I take it for granted in the case of the Stranger. Maybe if there was some blatant favoritism going on in "Keenan's'" writing. ... "internal investigation was launched..." how fucking pretentious. Seems like it was just someone who felt like doing some writing and wanted an outlet that had something of an audience. Is Line Out really that important...?When it was being launched alot people thought that an additional blog for music was unnecessary. I can't believe that many of your readers or advertiser would give a fuck about this...

Thank you. Journalistic intergrity is important and I appreciate knowing that the management takes these conflicts of interest seriously. Coming clean about this incident enhances the paper's credibility. Kudos.

Herethere, I am very sorry that you are a sociopath with no sense of ethics or integrity. It must be an incredibly easy way to live.

Ethics in the case of the Stranger is kind of a laughing matter don't you think...

I'd refer you to the post by Radio Radio in the Line Out comments under the same post...

Internal investigation -ha! That's rich.

While you're at it, please find out if Eli Sanders is on the payroll of the Darcy Burner campaign.

Oh, and speaking o fethics.. it's a little ironic that in Lineout beneath this same post, is a request for support of KBCS rathet than KEXP. The other bastion of Ethics in Seattle. No favoritism there, I'm sure.

serious fucking overkill, guys. or were there other reasons you wanted to fire Dave?

if you didn't *ask* him to turn in his resignation, give him a chance to change his mind, okay? the stranger's music coverage has improved drastically since he came onboard and this seems like a piddly-ass reason for him to leave.

however, thanks for the full disclosure.

Um, it's writing about bands. Is that really like some serious jornalistic scandal as you're making it out to be? It's hipsters writing about bands.

OK. I revise:

Herethere, I am very sorry you are a sociopath. It must be an incredibly easy way to live.

I don't think it's overboard at all. Asking someone to file journalistic reports under a false name in order to conceal who they really are is unethical, full stop. And if they filled out any IRS paperwork, it's illegal (I'm assuming "Keenan" was a contractor, not an employee; even worse if she was).

The conflict of interest is bad; the deliberate deception is worse.

What's the deal, FNARF, are you trying to get a job writing for the Stranger?

LGSM... OK, Whatever

Dear Shoes [, let's get some]:

STFU, troll.

Dear The Stranger:

did Segal's and Martin's managers *ask* if Bailee was writing for lineout? You're being a little vague there.

love,
.em

Dear fnarf: this is a blog we're talking about. When was the last time you really, seriously considered a particular blog post any kind of journalistic entity unto itself?

Sure, a blog post on a site that purports to be a serious source of news is one thing, but this is lineout. We're talking about a forum for, well, all kinds of bullshit and blather. It's awesome and it's stupid, and to hold it to any kind of cultural standard of journalistic integrity would be, in my opinion, a seriously retarded view. Bailee was not writing reviews for Pitchfork*.

love,
.em

*not that I'm considering them "a serious source of news", just looking for a bit of fucking perspective.

I always thought Seagal was a creep. He's probably recording a drumnbass pompom action-adventure routine tonight for YouTurd.

Dan Savage, et al:

Thank you for coming out with it, clear and concise. I disagree with some who might say 'no big deal.' Regardless of the paper's reputation of being a semi-serious alterna-rag, standards have to be kept.

At the very least, I hope you keep publishing Data Breaker. It's the best written column in the paper.

We're also talking about the print edition of a newspaper, remember.

Dear Noink,

We seem to be talking about the fact that The Stranger was previously unware that an employee of theirs, purportedly of in charge of bringing in music-related advertising cash, was also:
(a) writing blog entries for lineout, and
(b) subsequently went on to write articles for the print edition.

I guess there's some vaguely-alluded-to process at The Stranger whereby any journalist(tm) is vetted re: conflicts of interest before said journalist(tm) is allowed to submit entries for the print edition of the paper. Of course, nobody else at The Stranger has worked for any outfit related to the works they review.*

Dan Savage: Are you trying to say that because you did not know that Bailee Martin worked for you in another capacity, both she and the Stranger employee who allowed her to post FUCKING BLOG POSTS should be fired? Because, well, that's retarded.

Am I missing something?

* (tee hee)

Yes, Em, you're missing a clue.

Bring back pennington!

fnarf, do tell.

also, to The Stranger:

can you confirm that nobody has previously worked for you under a pseudonym? and/or, if so, that said persons were fully, internally, vetted?

this just smells funny. and that's not just 'cuz I had to finally turn my house's heat on tonight. maybe the same autumn blues are getting to you guys?

The Slog is not "just a blog." It is content produced by a newspaper and is subject to most of the same legal and ethical standards that the rest of the Stranger's online and offline content is. Your personal blog is different, but this ain't your personal blog. There's nothing inherent about the blog format that makes it a legal or ethical free-for-all.

Despite appearances, the Stranger is a real-life newspaper and should be congratulated for taking this so seriously. The griping is fairly insane. If they had hidden this, or if anyone had, you all would be up in arms. Leave it to the this bunch to go after someone for HAVING ethical standards.

Sheesh.

The content is not the point. The format is not the point. This is about deception and the inherent conflict between sales and editorial.

Oh, and pointing out that the Stranger is in the habit of writing extremely opinionated pieces in general COMPLETELY misses the point. It's not a conflict to have an opinion.

Em, the use of a pseudonym is not what caused a conflict of interest. It's the fact that the writer had a sales position at the paper. Sales and editorial don't mix.

What if you found out that a writer for the New York Times business section was also an ad rep with HP as a client? Wouldn't that throw their coverage of HP and HP's competitors into a suspicious light? It compromises the integrity of the entire editorial department.

It's just wrong. It's basic journalistic ethics. The Stranger did the right thing.

Did someone flip at switch at The Stranger?

Since when do they give a shit about ethics or any other standards?

Put aside Savage's own grandstanding (wet door knobs, etc.), but isn't this the paper that employs Josh Feit -- who, when not twisting things to glorify his favorites is glorifying himself with references to his affection for jazz and civil rights heroes?

Sorry, Dan, your ethical preening is not credible.

Okay, 'Thanks',

if you posted a comment to "I Anonymous" (as far as Google is concerned, that's equally "The Stranger's" as a post to Line Out would be) what would your expectations be re: its provenance?

ie. the content of Line Out looks to me like a bunch of people in a common space (music and music journalism) bullshitting w/ one another and the public. It's pretty fucking explicitly not serious, not in the sense that the Stranger's Election Control Board is. It's a bunch of people saying "look at / listen to this, I dig it" which I value immensely.

I guess I'm just curious why the blog angle has anything to do with this fiasco. Okay, so we all take it as given that someone who posts to Line Out is affiliated with The Stranger... so? Why even mention that?

Where *is* it a conflict, then, if we're not talking about opinions? Is The Stranger accusing Bailee Martin of refusing or otherwise impeding delivery of ads for bands he/she didn't like?

The more I read this post, the more mealy-mouthed it seems. I hope next week's issue will be enlightening.

i'm FIRED up cigarettes for dinner this evening TOASTING segal's FIRING

hmm, our posts seem to be getting seriously out of order. not only do the stranger fire people for posting to a blog, but they can't administrate one. good night.

Hasta la Vista, ho. Yo! Word!

Regardless of whether or not this was a big deal, thank you for taking action and being transparent about it.

It's a pity that the big media in this country can't be upfront like this.

havin' fun wit yer pseudonyms, emin em?

oh wait, we're not supposed to do that, sorry.

We're talking about the same editor who, according to an earlier slog post, was walking around the newsroom passing out tiny bottles of whiskey right? The same editor who smokes pot (a ton) and tried to get the staff of the mayor's office stoned on pot cookies?

Oh yeah, Dan Savage. That's exactly who I look to for ethical standards.

I sued-a-name once,
and lost, it was ez.
Now, I''m broke, so I'm a volunteer parked in a riceburner
smokin types bluntly
oh wait, we're supposed to rime

signed, mike huntley

Friday night on the slog.

Whiskey is not unethical. A little pot (not a "ton") is not unethical. Pseudonyms are not unethical. Conflicts of interest ARE unethical, and so is concealing an employee's identity from her employer, especially with the collusion of a superior. It's an unfortunate situation, but Mr. Segal was clearly lying to his boss, and doing so deliberately to conceal. It's an issue of trust.

Fnarf,

If Segal was lying to his boss, okay, that's not good. As if I've never lied to my boss. Savage's post was about as vague as one's post can be while still alluding to such. Blogs, pot, and whiskey are all, well, secondary, as usual.

The fact remains that this shit went down on a blog and was originally implicating blog-ness, which is just... weird.

Given the kinds of conflict of interest The Stranger have been instrumental in pointing out, it seems weird for The Stranger themselves to be taking such drastically more intense action against their own conflicts of interest. Yeah, these things happen. Okay, let's fire one guy 'cuz we couldn't fire the guy who got 650k+ people killed. Now we can sleep better.

.oops, I was supposed to use a pseudonym
.I guess it's not summer any longer.

..free cascadia

oops, "seiche" == "em"
pseudonym hereby owned up to.

Well, that's a real shame. Dave Segal is a great writer and has been a really valuable and entertaining addition to not just The Stranger, but to Seattle's music community in general.

I was never really big on the stranger's music coverage since im not a fan or follower of the seattle music scene so I'm not really concerned with this guys firing. You guys are the professionals running the paper, i'm sure you did what you thought necessary. Nice to see a little transparency though.

look...i know that sometimes people use the word "resigned" for being fired, but sometimes people really do resign. if dan & bradley asked dave to resign, hopefully they'd say that. otherwise, regardless of whether you think its a fireable offense (and i'm more focused on the print articles here), it's not implausible that dave would resign. nor is it unreasonable for the staff to have investigated. everyone needs to go to bed, because you're obviously cranky.

so the "assistant to the sales manager" which was "not a commissioned position" wrote"occasional short pieces for the print edition of The Stranger" and blog posts which after "a preliminary investigation of Martin’s writings for the paper did not turn up any direct evidence of Martin having given favorable coverage to bands or clubs" "resigned", and after a meeting with the brass the music editor also "resigned", I'm supposed to feel all fuzzy that the Stranger is upholding to the highest standards of ethics. Do I have this straight? Really, I think an offering of apology to the public would have been more than appropriate for this minor mistake. If it were something other than music posts, It might be another story. I'm more offended by ad reps giving preferred placement to their favorite clubs (owned by friends of theirs) or Stranger Suggests blurbs going to some god awful show that some people get suckered into because one of the editors or writers favors or is friends of theirs.

It may have been the wrong thing for Segal to allow this to happen, but you know what - I say BFD - because there's always some form of "conflict of interest" going down when people are paying a media outlet for publicty. The publicity often extends beyond the printed page. BFD. I think the management jumped the gun on this and should have waited for their "investigation" to turn up proof of actual events that showed a conflict of interest. However, they didn't wait and my guess is that they didn't wait for unethical reasons.

OH MY GOD HOW CAN I EVER BELIEVE IN ANYTHING AGAIN

MEIN LEIBEN

Yeah, this was overkill.

herethere--why do you refuse to consider that it might have gone down a different way? why isn't it possible that they had their meeting to investigate, and segal resigned.

segal posted a comment on a linout post at 4:21 pm, and if he had already decided to resign, i don't think he would have posted the comment. and if you've ever been involved in investigating a personnel problem, you'd know that those things take a little time. dan & bradley had to get segal's story, but the next natural step would ahve been to consider what they found out from segal and determine whether they wanted to fire him (and probably a call to a lawyer if they did want to). given that rationale, i just think it's possible that segal simply resigned before they took any action.

and if segal did resign on his own accord, they had to post something. back off on the conspiracy theories, will you?

re: #28: If I post to I, Anonymous, that's ME posting, as a visitor to the Stranger's site. This is fundamentally (and legally) different from content created by the Stranger's staff. The Stranger's (including these comments) is limited. It's a completely different story when the content is posted on their site by employees of the paper, regardless of whether it's in a blog post or an article.

good riddens to segal. he was a mediocre writer that only did favors for his small clique of vapid "artists" in seattle while turning up his (big) nose to loads of other local talent.

Ginger,

I don't refuse to consider it a possibility, as I said it's "my guess". I could be wrong. We'll see what comes out in the "FULL accounting of this issue in next week’s paper." I just don't see it as a major indiscretion or a major story. Sorry.

What is the true goal of this post? Other than the fact that it seems geared at getting the slog a ton of page hits. I really don’t see the point. I am in total agreement with herethere: "I think an offering of apology to the public would have been more than appropriate for this minor mistake."
What I would like to know is what the HR implications are for releasing the names of employees that have been let go for failing to comply with an internal policy? I was under the impression that there was something called workers protection and an employer was not allowed to publicly slander an employee... I could be wrong... even so I think this post shows a huge lack of maturity with a large dollop of the editors of this paper taking themselves much too seriously.

All issues side, Segal was the best thing to happen to the music section in a very long time. I can't think of anyone who can replace him. He really knew his shit back and forth: rock, experimental, electronic, everything.

From the wording in the entry, it *sounds* like Segal and Martin elected to leave.

They're not entitled to give their say on the issue, but I'd be very curious to hear it, if they so wish. It will probably appear elsewhere, if it does, though.

If not, well damn :( Again, I hate to see people deceived, if the allegations are true, minor or not... but it saddens me to see a paper that was going somewhere finally take two steps back again, as far as talent goes.

The true goal of this post? Well, since Friday the 13th is over, this spooky story with the superstitious plot can end. Earlier this week, Savage was two feet from a bar's entrance smokin a fatty and nursing a tumbler of Scotch when he dreamed up this hoax. He felt it was the only brotherly loving way to deal with Dave. At least that's what they're saying on the Seattle Weakly blog.

darkelf, i'm not sure what you mean by "workers protection." it's not a term of art in the HR or legal fields. plus, if anyone should understand the concept of slander, it should be journalists; and they'd probably tell you that slander requires something to be FALSE. while the average employer may not reveal something like this, it's not uncommon in a higher profile profession (like journalism).

but whatever happened, i'd ask you all to remember that two people resigned today, and even if you think they should have resigned, it's a little heartless to go on with personal attacks (like rootkit's).

So here's what I understood this as.

1. The Advertising Coordinator was writing unpaid posts for Line Out.

2. With the encouragement of the music editor, said Coordinator wrote -- and was paid for -- several short pieces for the Stranger proper.

3. Neither the Coordinator nor the Music Editor informed the editors of the Stranger of her identity as an employee of the paper, presumably because of the conflict of interest between an advertising management position and a writer would have prevented the Coordinator from writing or being paid.

4. When the Editors discovered this, they yanked the possibly tainted articles and met with the people involved.

5. Who thereupon resigned.

6. The Editors then posted a public notice on their blog informing their readers of the conflict of interest and the steps they were taking.

All well and good. There's a fairly clear conflict of interest -- you don't want to even be close to a situation where your revenue as a newspaper is tied directly to the content of your newspaper -- and also clear collusion and deception on the parts of the employees.

More or less?

Lots of crap being foisted at Savage and company now and terribly undeserved. Let's turn the question around a bit, shall we?

If Segal and Martin were so confident of the ethical nature of Martin's activity, then why did they A)choose a pseudonym for the posts and articles and B)why did they not bring their proposal forward to their managers for their approval?

It seems to me that they knew that they would likely not receive said approval from their managers. Why not? Because the managers would have noted the conflict of interest and put a stop to it before it began. So, Segal and Martin decided to come up with a work around. Once caught in the deception, they were let go in one way or another.

They deceived their employers. In doing so they subverted a policy that separates editorial from sales staff. Whatever their intentions, and I'm presuming that both individuals did have good intentions towards improving the paper/blog and providing an outlet to a budding writer, they broke some steadfast rules of journalism and they knew it. They hoped that they would get away with it with some happy ending, but it didn't work out for them.

I appreciate Segal's knowledge and will miss his writing. It's a shame that he participated in this. Same for Martin. However, clearly, they knew that their actions would not fly (hence the deception) and they took a chance. Segal did the right thing by offering his resignation. The Stranger managers did the right thing by exposing the problem.

Or:

Stranger management discovers that one of their employees in the ad dept., who obviously loves music, has been asked by the music editor to contribute posts to the Slog. Perhaps because they have a burgeoning interest in writing.

The posts are pretty good, so the writer gets a few short pieces in print. (not quite so innocent anymore).

The principals brings the offenders to the office. They say, what's up? You know it's not cool to write about musicians while we're accepting ad revenue from virtually every club in town. It's against policy. We really appreciate all the hard work you've done for the paper, but if our advertisers knew about this I'm sure they'd be upset. Would you be willing to write a story about your shenanigans and include an apology? They reply, Why sure... we know it wasn't cool, but we love music, so...

Piece gets written, hardly anyone notices or cares, because it really isn't such a big deal...

Just an alternate scenario that might have been. Instead two people are out of work. Their reputations are damaged. Their is, IMO, an unnecessary Friday night Slog post leading to some pretty unkind remarks, as Slog posters will do.

Could this have waited until Monday? Could the people concerned slept on it over the weekend? Probably, however it didn't happen that way.

I'm being asked to believe that the management held a meeting. Informed the guilty parties that they've been outed, and that the response was... yes, we've done wrong and don't want to save our jobs and therefor voluntarily resign.

However, I don't believe that. I do believe that it's not as serious as it's being made out to be.

The Stranger is not a "newspaper" in the way that I understand it... a daily paper is a newspaper. The Stranger is a cultural journal, written by people who have a heightened interest in what they write about, Some are trained journalists, some are not. Most write about areas they love and are passionate about. Obviously, I don't believe that people working in the ad dep't of a cultural journal should also be on the staff of writers. At the same time, I don't believe that this was a major transgression and couldn't have been handled differently.

The Stranger accepts ad revenue from the vast majority of live music venues in the city, and writes regularly about events in those venues. I see this as a simple crossing of the line between departments that I assume share the same hallways. One happy family I hope... but apparently, instead, a strict ethical role model of upstanding journalists who never make a mistake.

Cool, I can accept that.

I also appreciate the efforts that Dave Segal put into promoting music for the clubs of Seattle and some of the more under served venues and events as well. I wish him luck. I hope he did fully resign of his own accord. Maybe the full story will be told. I'd appreciate that.

HereThere said, "Instead two people are out of work. Their reputations are damaged. Their is, IMO, an unnecessary Friday night Slog post leading to some pretty unkind remarks, as Slog posters will do."

I just got back from the grocery store and walked right past the Real Change salesperson. I feel my reputation has been damaged as a concerned anonymous citizen. A tear is forming in my eye as I reflect on the unkindness. I know, this is an unecessary post.

how surprising is this, really? seattle has always had far more than its share of music writers who were best buds with the folks they wrote about. boosterism has always been a major part of the stranger's style. this is over the line for sure, but it's hardly a shocking development.

that's not to say segal didn't fuck up royally, though. or that savage's "i am the pious soul of integrity" thing isn't a fucking crock. it's just too bad that the stranger's best section (by a mile) is going to probably be put in the hands of someone a quarter as good as segal. sad all around.

WHATEVER you do, do not promote that Donte Parks guy to some paying position. If you knew how he threw around the Stranger's name in order to get freebies, it's disgusting. Keep it real guys!

Very, very sad.

What does The Stranger pay for each piece contributed? Same rate for print and blog?

Not having read all the comments yet, it appears this was mostly harmless until Martin's pieces got published in the print edition and started getting paid for the pieces written.

It's kinda fresh that the Stranger condemns someone for a conflict of interest when there's clear and obvious conflicts of interest in all their political writings. You seriously think that Josh Feit and Erica Barnett aren't conflicted with their personal biases for, say, Maria Cantwell and the People's Waterfront Coalition, when they write their allegedly objective articles? But then a sales rep for the paper writes a few pieces about the harmless subject of music in Seattle, and that person needs to get raked over the coals?

Either condemn everyone for their conflicts of interest, or condemn no one. Otherwise, this comes across as sensationalist bullshit.

This'd be a good time to hire someone with a unified sense of the regional music scene, ie Seattle in a context with Portland, Olympia, Tacoma, Ellensburg, Anacortes, Bellingham, Vancouver and Boise. (and beyond that, Wiliamsburg, San Diego, Chicago, Montreal, Paris, Brighton, East Bay, Detroit, Tokyo, Tuscon, Austin, Houston, Atlanta, Providence, DC, Chapel Hill, Silverlake, etc.) Seattle hipsters, having climbed to the familiar top of Seattle's club/promoter/semi-pro/free-drink mountain, have a stake in promoting their scene's significance instead of illuminating the broader landscape and hills beyond. Seattle-based music journalism is dead-on-arrival without a connection to the surrounding neighborhood. And only a fraction of a musician's contribution goes down in clubs anyway. This could be a great opportunity for The Stranger.

Hmm, Richard... maybe that's what motivated this. Maybe there's a desire to expand the coverage, yet no otherwise justifiable reason to punt Dave Segal, but there here this little mess comes. No such motivation, and maybe a blind eye's turned to this.

I only say MAYBE.

I hope Megan Seling is the next music editor. She's great.

I think #55 post says it all. Nothing personal, it's how things go. It sucks, but let's move on.

WIkipedia:
Daniel Keenan Savage.... is also a playwright and theater director, both under his real name and under the name Keenan Hollahan, using his middle name and his grandmother's maiden name. [2] After growing up in Chicago, Savage studied theater and history.

Slog:
For the past several months “Keenan Bowen” was writing for Line Out, the Stranger’s Music blog.

Hmmm, interesting. Just sayin'...

If Hannah Levin is available to take the position, I hope she does. She does really good on-the-street coverage, has lived in the city for a while, and is very open minded.

I think KEXP's DJ Mr. Smith is also on their underwriting staff..? hmmm.

Dave never should have been made editor in the first place. He's a good writer, especially when it comes to non-rock music. But he was made editor because of Jennifer Maerz's recommendation which came out of loyalty and friendship, not because he was the best person the Stranger could get. Hannah Levin's best writing has been on social issues not music. She's not qualified to have the status at the Stranger she has. And now her c-level scenester friend Ma'Chell Duma is suddenly a 'music writer' at The Stranger too. Which is just more insider lame crap. The Stranger has gone from having one of the best music editors in the business to having a lot of third and fourth tier wanna-be writers.

If the Stranger wanted to make a bold move they would go steal former Stranger writer Brian Barr from the Weekly. The Weekly is quickly filling the vacuum in music coverage created when Maerz left town. Then they would go hire some young, relevant, quality music writers. But Savage doesn't care about music, and Keck lost touch with the music scene long ago. Now he's the dad who stays at home and rarely goes to see a local band. Savage and Keck's lack of oversight of the music section is allowing the Stranger's relevance to the local music scene slowly die. The music and cultural coverage which created the influence of the Stranger is being replaced by Savage's obsession with impacting local politics.

The Stranger was once fresh and challenging. Now it's on it's way to being old and tired and out of touch. They praise mediocrity like Sean Nelson, who they think is the end all and be all of the local music scene because, well, he wrote Flagpole Sitta. This is just more proo the Stranger is holding onto their mid-90's glory days, which sadly was also a time of cultural medictority both locally and nationally, filled by irony when quality couldn't be found.

I sincerly hope that losing Segal will make Savage and Keck take a long hard look at their music section and remember that it's the music and arts coverage that made the Stranger important, not their coverage of local politics. While their local political coverage is important, it is only so in light of the paper's incfluence among the youth culture in Seattle, and again, that influence is derived from the Stranger's music and arts coverage.

It will be sad to lose Segal, as he brought to the paper a talent for writing about electronic music that has never existed at The Stranger. But let's hope the Stranger is smart enough to see this as an oppurtunity to turn over their flayling music section and turn it into something that is once again important and relevant. Or maybe it's time for the whole Stranger to grow up, realize it's importance and become the intelligent quality paper it could be, important for great and thoughtful writing not just childish pranks and made up controversy created by wanna-be scenesters.

catty,
not sure why my name's popping up here at all. seems a bit off-topic at best, blatantly accusatory at worst. but you're free to your (uninformed) opinions, so go blog-comment crazy.

on friday th 13th seattle was done a great disservice. two people who love to write about music no longer get to do that. boo.

TBF, you're completely insane for recommending Barr and dissing Nelson, you know, right?

why does matthew fisher wilder always have a problem with barr? crybaby.

Those calling for Hannah or Megan or another good writer to be editor: writing for the paper, and managing all the content for the entire section, are completely different ballgames. There's no assurance that a good music writer will make a good music editor, especially on the fly, on the heels of something like this.

The burning of the bridge with Dave Segal by the paper was a bit rash IMO. The music section was pretty strong under his guidance. There is no assurance the paper maintains that with a hastily appointed interim editor or a hired outsider.

Mike McGonigol (sp) of Yeti would be a great hire. Mudede could do it with the right team. Bring Zac Pennington back from Portland?

i agree with the comments that a public apology should have been more than enough to suffice. worst-case scenario, maybe asking dave to continue with data breaker but finding a different or co-editor. forcing people to resign, especially right in the middle of an issue being produced, seems very unnecessary.


the stranger is a weekly, whose known biases are part of the charm. for anyone reading it hoping to have zero conflicts of interest, maybe you should read the new york times instead. this format of journalism is not meant to be completely ethical, how boring.


(arguably) those close to the situation realize that dave and bailee both have high levels of integrity and were ultimately doing this for good music coverage in the stranger. i sincerely doubt anything she wrote was biased based on advertising sales; segal would never be a sellout or allow that to happen.


that being said, it's disappointing that he would risk his position to get her writing out. personally, i feel there are a lot stronger of writers in dave’s pool and the payoff isn’t worth the potential fallout, which perhaps he now realizes. can’t we just let him say he’s sorry and move on? intentions good, ethics poor... worth a resignation? i don’t think so.


dave brought a lot of very talented writers to the paper - Eric Grandy and Matt Corwine, amongst others - and as previously mentioned he included coverage of electronic music that has been invaluable in building that genre of music in this city.


he is genuinely into all different types of music and goes out to more shows than anyone i know, hands down. he’s been an integral part of the many scenes since he moved here, and i can’t think of anyone who would make a better editor for the stranger. while it might seem like it's an ideal job, it's a ton of work, and not just anyone can pull it off.


hopefully the stranger will find a way to continue a relationship with him; a sad loss if not.

I'm kind of shocked at how many people think lying is no big deal. As some other people pointed out, there's a difference between being opinionated and having a conflict of interest. And there's an even bigger difference between having a conflict of interest openly or choosing to lie about it.

zac pennington was the worst hipster of all of them! he couldn't write worth shit either.
DO NOT BRING HIM BACK!

Jennifer: precisely. It's the intent to deceive that matters here.

78. Except there wasn't any lying. Acting dishonestly, sure. But no one approached Dave Segal, asked him if he had any sales staff on the payroll to which he responded, "No."

And again, the Stranger's writer staff is full of conflicts of interest. If you're gonna crucify Segal, crucify ECB, crucify Feit, hell, crucify Savage himself, for their conflicts of interest in writing their pieces.

The overwhelming concensus in the city's music industry and out, has been that the Stranger's music section had suffered under Dave's leadership. This was definitely expressed to the Stranger's leadership. I am not saying I agree or disagree, merely stating the plain truth. I find it hard to believe that this kind of indiscretion would lead to him being fired. Let's be honest, people submit their resignations because they are given the option to do that or be fired. This was a convenient way to let the guy go. Otherwise, it's a classic over-reaction by a group of people that take themselves way too seriously. There is a wealth of conflict of interest there. As an example, do you think The Stranger would publish an article that exposed a club in town for ethical indiscretions? Not if that club was a huge advertiser.

The overwhelming concensus in the city's music industry and out, has been that the Stranger's music section had suffered under Dave's leadership. This was definitely expressed to the Stranger's leadership. I am not saying I agree or disagree, merely stating the plain truth. I find it hard to believe that this kind of indiscretion would lead to him being fired. Let's be honest, people submit their resignations because they are given the option to do that or be fired. This was a convenient way to let the guy go. Otherwise, it's a classic over-reaction by a group of people that take themselves way too seriously. There is a wealth of conflict of interest there. As an example, do you think The Stranger would publish an article that exposed a club in town for ethical indiscretions? Not if that club was a huge advertiser.

look, here's a perspective from the non-publishing/journalism world. if you lie to your bosses and encourage your subordinate to lie to your bosses in order to get them to pay for fraudulently represented services, you should expect to lose your job.

you just can't do that. it has nothing to do with quality writing or blogging vs. print media or anything else.

your bosses might have mercy on you and let you apologize, but they are under no obligation to do so.

Gomez, as someone who is spending so much time on this post, you ought to understand the difference between bias and conflict of interest. Neither Erica nor Josh would deny that they bring their own biases and prejudices to their writing. Their task is to try to write fairly nonetheless. This issue -- a salesperson whose job depends not so indirectly on her success at selling ads who, with the encouragement of an editor, assumes a position to promote her customers editorially -- is a different kettle of fish. A personal or institutional economic interest in the subject of editorial coverage would be wrong even if it were transparent.

So much time? LOL, I've checked it out 3 times since it's gone up nearly 24 hours ago, 2 of which were today, in what i admit is a slow day, but hardly to whatever obsession you're inferring.

Erica and Josh have some vested interests and relationships with the people they clearly support in their writing. The idea behind Segal's shitcanning is that he let someone write articles that possibly supported people who bought into advertising with the rag. In other words, that person possibly wrote articles positive towards entites who said person wanted to succeed. Hardly objective, right?

You'll probably have to restate and clarify a point to answer this question: How, aside from the money involved, is this different from ECB writing an article about how rebuilding the viaduct is BAD BAD BAD and advocates the 'surface option', and calling it objective journalism, knowing that ECB has a serious personal interest in the success of Cary Moon's PWC, which proposes and lobbies for the surface option?

I don't read those band articles anyway. They're just blah blah blah blah BLAH. I don't care if *robots* write them.

Wow, this one slog post seems to be enough to single-handedly cause everyone in the Stranger to be badmouthed by the community at large. I really don't know that many people in the Stranger and everyone is entitled to their own opinion....

BUT, catty, where do get off saying that Donte Parks accepts free shit by using the name of the Stranger. The dude doesn't drink and I have yet to hear him once (at a club or otherwise) mention that he even works for the Stranger.

Dave Segal probably got shitcanned. The management of the Stranger may have had their reasons. You people should still show some respect.

The bands all sound the same.

The same hipsters fight over the same crap.

The angry people latch onto is because it's something new to be angry about.

Thus is always is in Seattle's "intellectual" community: languid mental masturbation to topics that no one is interested in.

gomez, what exactly are you talking about? what is ECB's personal interest in the PCW??

Soooowaaa.... you hiring a new music editor??

This is terrible news. As much as many of you might think Dave only had ties with the electronic music community. He was actually involved in all aspects quality and original music. He was also deeply involved in helping the Seattle community (new artists, record labels, etc.) grow and flourish. My apologies to the few people who might feel that your music wasn't recieiving enough press. Dave was a very well rounded and good person. And it is purely a loss to this city that he is no longer a part of the Stranger.

i have some general issues with music journalism as it stands today, and i understand that the pseudonym/hiding-information-from-managers thing reflects poorly on the writers involved and paper as a whole. nonetheless, i think dave was a good editor, and believe you will have trouble replacing him.

@M.Lee: If I ever cry about Barr, it's with laughter.

As for this comment:

"The overwhelming concensus in the city's music industry and out, has been that the Stranger's music section had suffered under Dave's leadership."

What the fuck is this supposed to mean? Who gives a shit about the "music industry consensus" and why don't you quote your sources? Do you have nothing better to do?

Frank, don't be dense. Read her articles, going back a couple years. Even her tone is clearly slanted in one direction.

Again, Gomez, writing that is slanted in favor of one position or another does NOT constitute a conflict of interest of a "vested interest." Bias is not a conflict. Not being "objective" is not a conflict.

No one is claiming that the Stranger is unbiased. The Stranger is clearly biased and doesn't pretend to be otherwise. Writers are encouraged to express their opinions in their pieces. Again, this is not a conflict of interest. ECB has no vested interest in the surface transit option (do you have some evidence of this? do you even know what vested interest means?), she just thinks it's the right replacement option for the viaduct.

It's weird that you can't understand that this is quite different from an ad rep writing articles that may deal with her clients.

So who will the Stranger go after for the music editor position? Will they hire somebody from within, go cheap by hiring a inexperienced editor like the Seattle Weekly did, or go out and spend some money and steal a talented editor from a well-known publication?

Right now I'm remembering "Keenan"'s glowing Lineout reference to the Yaris Works events at the Block Party. I was skeptical of them at the time, and this certainly doesn't help.

"music industry consensus" my frickin' ass.

oh, i am rather bummed about this. thank goodness the Weekly's music coverage has been steadily improving.

and i wish dave luck finding better things to do. which should be fairly easy.

One Hundred!

jonny

wow. read this post at 3am and thought i was still trippin;.
an internal matter gets blown out of proportion into a blog post and 2 productive employees get canned + have their reps smeared for good measure. that extra little twist of the knife is a class move....
let me guess -- segal and martin's managers will go unpunished and prolly get raises at their next review??

sleep well, stranger decision makers.

Dave will be dearly missed. He is a talented writer, and he was an editor with taste and vision. Here's hoping he finds success with whatever he pursues next.

Bring back The Rocket.. HA... This is not news.. Who cares

A general definition: A conflict of interest is a situation in which someone in a position of trust, such as a lawyer, a politician, or an executive or director of a corporation, has competing professional or personal interests. Such competing interests can make it difficult to fulfill his or her duties impartially.

Note that ECB has a personal interest in the viaduct's success (unless you want to personally define interest as solely business and financial, money related interests... which would be rather narrow on your parts and explain your obtuse objections) and said competing interest makes it diffuclt to fulfill her duty as a journalist IMPARTIALLY.

If she's not impartial, she shouldn't label herself off as a journalist. She's not. Just because Fox's reporters do it doesn't mean it's okay.

Note, also, that they found that there wasn't any noted correlation between positive copy by Martin and the clients Martin worked with as a coordinator. But the coordinator was canned as if the copy was written with pro-client intentions.

Dave Segal's out of a job, whereas 3 days ago, there were no real problems with his work. That's no small potatoes.

Apologies w/r/t sidestepping the argument that Segal did this all under the table. You could argue that's what makes it a major offense.

The angle that heads needed to roll as a conflict of interest is debatable, but it's clear that this was not something that an editor should hide from a senior editor.

Clearly you are all missing the point here. Where are my plus one's going to come from now? Huh? Tragic for sure.

"A Note to Our Readers"?
Dan, when did a hipster like you start acting like the editor of the New York Times?
The Stranger is best when it is irreverant and witty, not catty, self indulgent, self referential, mean or sophmoric...which is the tilt taken some time before Monorail mania took hold.
Dan, you're walking through the brothel of Seattle journalism...don't start saying you're shocked, shocked! when you discover bias or self-dealing slipping into the news columns.

The fish stinks from the head, bad boy.

This is terrible news. I am very curious to hear both sides of the story and do a little journalism of my own. Something simply doesn't sit well with this account and I intend on getting to the bottom of this. Dave was the best thing that ever happened to the Stranger. His writing will be sorely missed.

It’s a shame for the Stranger and Dave that this had to play out this way. Dave is well respected by the Seattle music community and does a great job for the Stranger. We all realize he made some bad decisions; the problem is this makes a big deal of a small matter. Keep him on the staff and have him write an explanation and apology.

Wow. This is gonna make for the saddest "VH1 Behind the Music" episode ever...

Based on the popularity of this Slog string, The Stranger should fire staff members on a regular basis, posting just enough details on the Slog for community members to add their juicy speculations and high-minded muddle. Get a sponsor out of the staff-placement industry like Accountemps, or Monster.com.

Sure, we could speculate that:

a) Dave perhaps wasn't totally playing the game to certain labels, and hence keeping his integrity; so the smallest excuse had to be found to make him leave

b) Someone who's closer to the management had a disagreement with Dave at some point re: article editing or pitch, and so this little faux-pas was the greatest 'scandal' the management could come up with get rid of the mean ol' editor, and replace him with friends.

But what's the point? Dave doesn't owe anybody an explanation. Maybe it will be public soon. Maybe it never will. Maybe there is nothing more to it, and the truth is far more boring.

The Stranger's music section is, at least in the interim, going to suffer more now -- no doubt about that. Unless someone like Levin gets to take Segal's place, the music section is going to suffer indefinitely compared to Dave's stint. If the latter, complacency to indie flavors of the month are going to rule the section moreso than ever before.

Time to start a third music-based alt weekly.

And with all respect to Tablet, it's time to start a third mostly-music-based alternative paper that tries something different, and isn't mostly a subset of what the two other alt weeklies do.

This is the most amusing thing I've seen all day. Talk about a tempest in a teacup.

So Ms. Martin gets assignments from her boss, fulfills them and looses her job. Have I got that right ?

No, Jack, you got it wrong. Try again.

Wrong, Jack. Segal was not Martin's boss, she worked for the sales staff.

Dave was incredibly knowledgeable and supportive of all music. I saw him out at rock shows, hip hop shows and electronic shows alike. To all those making allegations about Dave covering too much electronic music I suggest you actually talk to the people that knew Dave and knew how diverse his tastes were. As a writer Dave is un-paralleled in Seattle. Terrible loss for sure.

there's no question that the ethics of this are questionable. but is it really a dismissal-worthy offense? i worked with dave segal at another publication and found him to be an above-board guy and probably the most musically knowledgeable music writer i've ever met. why not give him another chance?

People just love a good "scandal" as an excuse to take sides and talk shit. It seems like Dave made a mistake here, but really, is it worth it to put him against the firing sqaud for it? So it sounds like he hired the wrong person to write for the paper. Definitely something that should be stopped. But "launching an investigation"? Did you lauch those investigations when writers were sleeping with/palling around with/trying to get in bed with the subjects of their various articles? A mistake was made, a mistake was admitted, a mistake should be left as water under the bridge. Doesn't the paper and this city have better things to fret over than this small item? And I want to add to the chorus that Dave Segal is a really great writer. He helped put Seattle on the map as a destination for electronic music artits, he shifted the scope of the paper much wider than indie rock and hard rock, and he really went to bat for the underground act. I'm sure he learned from this mistake, hopefully the paper will let him alone after the fact, and his fans hope he finds a good gig to keep up the music writing...he definitely knowns his shit. Even if it seems he didn't always pick those writers well.

Call this a tempest in a teacup all you want, but this is the first thread i remember that reached 120 comments.

In the grand scheme of life, sure, most things are tempests in teacups but apparently a lot of people here do care about the Stranger's music section.

Just sayin'...

I'd like to be the first to make a shout out for Bailee “Keenan Bowen” Martin. Her club advertising coordinating and deception will be missed.

But her sophomoric writing skills and questionable taste will not.

A tough situation that ended up with no one winning but also one that had to play out the way it did. It's journalism 101 and if the club ad person is going to produce content it has to be labelled as such, not a fake name.

What's really disturbing are all the fools above who like don't really get why editorial integrity is worth defending - hard as that may be. No wonder W has had such a good ride with dupes like these.

Sam B - integrity is indeed worth defending, but you can't defend something which wasn't there in the first place.

"I'm also worried about what this will do to edm in this city, and thus our scene as a whole. Dave had an instrumental role in supporting our population. This is a huge loss in many ways. " - Kristina Childs

- this is how I fundamentally feel about it as well. Not just for edm, (electronic dance music) but for quality music in all genres as a whole. Dave played a huuuuge role in reshaping that local weekly rag. I honestly cannot think of anyone in this town who could have done what he did in the context of that paper. Here's hoping for him to find a new gig thats both complimentary to his vast knowledge and passion for sound - and hopefully (maybe a bit selfishly) one we can all reap the benefits of locally.

Irregarless of the particulars of the situation, and the business ethics involved, this is a loss, in no small way, to local culture as a whole that will not easily be reversed.

Jefferson

the first thing i read in the stranger every week are the pieces written by dave. always. i'm going to miss dave segal.

asstacking! i like that one better.

It would be nice to hear the whole story. Who's reporting?

I agree. The Stranger just won't be the same.

I was responding to what Zach said. I'm gonna miss Dave too.

The whole thing stinks for sure. I'm also worried about what this will do to edm in this city, and thus our scene as a whole. Dave had an instrumental role in supporting our population, and this is a huge loss to many of us in many ways.

Having him resign seems extreme. If it truely is a conflict of interest, then stop the *conflict*. Dave has great taste and - in most cases - great discretion. With him the paper improved 100%, without him I believe it will relapse.

Here's hoping he's allowed to come back on once it all blows over.

Comments containing and/or referring to personal attacks have been deleted.

Keep it civil.

"The overwhelming concensus in the city's music industry and out, has been that the Stranger's music section had suffered under Dave's leadership."

As someone who has been directly tied to this city's music scene for over ten years and in ways based both in culture and commerce - spanning the genres of rock, punk, indie, noise, jazz/improv, experimental, electronic, hip hop and dub/reggae - I cant tell you how subjective and innacurate that sentence is. Sorry. There's just no way you can justify it with an objective founded arguement. Get the facts straight before including members of the 'city's music industry' - such as myself - in your generalizations.

This is a truly unfortunate turn of events.
Dave Segal is both a gentleman and a (musical) scholar.
Best luck to you Dave.

Illegitimi Non Carborundum

It's funny that noone has mentioned the most obvious conflict of interest the Stranger has had in it's history. Sean Nelson being the Music Editor?...... Anyone ever notice how many feature articles there was about The Long Winters and Harvey Danger? and how many Top Ten lists were published with both of those bands topping the lists?

I agree that this whole thing is a little fishy and I respect that The Stranger made it's decision and was transparent about it, but I do think it should have been dealt with more discreetly and maybe the paper should have given Dave the opportunity to publicly aknowledge his mistake and apologize, instead of such a heavy handed responce (IE: asking for his resignation)
Dave is a great writer and added alot to the paper and is journalistic quality in my opinion

Re: #127, posted by Jefferson

Hear, hear. There's definitely a correlary between the currently thriving state of the local experimental/noise scene and Dave's enthusiastic public support of it and other genres that would normally have difficulty finding publicity otherwise. To be fair, Chris DeLaurenti does a bang-up job in those areas, but within the constraints of a weekly column. The balance Dave provided between larger coverage of the more popular/conventional areas and the more marginal was far more impressive than that of previous editors, and a welcome jolt of altruism that was undeniably a boon to the community. I'm not going to weigh in on the circumstances of his resignation at this time except to agree that it is a loss to the paper and our city's live music culture that will likely be felt. Here's hoping otherwise, thanks for the hard work, Dave.

Sean Nelson was never the Stranger's music editor.

I'm raising a vitaminwater in your honor, Segal.

Boy, people losing their jobs over inoffensive sockpuppeteering?

Me thinks you people need a dollop of internethics: There's a difference between malicious deception and deception to gain anonymity.

"Me thinks you people need a dollop of internethics: There's a difference between malicious deception and deception to gain anonymity."

The fact that Ms. Martin used a pseudonym isn't the issue; it's the fact that she used a pseudonym to do something she wasn't allowed to do...I think that's been pretty clear. You might want to read the whole post before you comment.

I think a bunch of people are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

The Stranger's bread and butter is the local music scene. Clubs and bars pay a lot for their weekly ads, and thus big national ads for beer, liquor and cigarettes get placed.

I don't think The Stranger is so concerned about the conflict on interest to its readers, but to its advertisers. If word got out that XYZ club bought a big ad and then got good coverage for their lineup, (or worse, vice versa) clubs wouldn't be comfortable buying ads thinking that their decisions may effect editorial coverage.

After 143 posts on this particular topic, John finally hit the nail on the head.

Hard work? Segal? Please, tell him to listen to "Money For Nothing." Music journalism is the way to climb the charts these days. Just look at Chuck Klostrophobic and his Ho-Ho's and Trix is for Kids style of rock'n'roll best-sellers.

Wow, one of the headlining stories in the P-I website. Dear god.

MFW - "Dear God" is right

'...is just somebody's (um Segal's?) unholy hoax
And if you're up there you'll perceive
That my heart's here upon my sleeve
If there's one thing I don't believe in

It's you
Dear god

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

*snorf*

(suddenly wakened by the sound of 120-something annoying posts)

What? A scandal at The Stranger?

Excellent! Let's hear the dirt, the excrement, the filth!

After all, it was apparently SO dreadful it warranted the following statement from THE STRANGER himself, that bald guy with the glasses!

"Comments containing and/or referring to personal attacks have been deleted.

Keep it civil."

This is going to be JUICY!

Oh.

It's about their music slog.

Which is a fanzine they publish that's read by a couple hundred rabid fans.

Fewer people read it than read "ToonTown."

It invovled ethics, apparently. Not quite of the "suggestive e-mails to my pages" quality. More of a "you put my stapler in a jello mold" variety.

Wake me up when they get back to real news.

Heartin' Dan, all you Dan-haters,

Sam

David Schmader said:

"Sean Nelson was never the Stranger's music editor"

But he was and continues to be a staff writer, with many of his pieces featured in the music section. So the crux of what poster #137 said was spot on. Favoritism and extra coverage being given to the bands of one of your writers is at least as much of a conflict of interest as is an ad sales rep writing under a pseudonym. The Stranger has never been a highly principled publication when it comes to potential conflicts of interest, which is why the extreme measures that were taken in response to Segal's indescretion look very suspect indeed.

Post #143 said:

"I don't think The Stranger is so concerned about the conflict of interest to its readers, but to its advertisers. If word got out that XYZ club bought a big ad and then got good coverage for their lineup, (or worse, vice versa) clubs wouldn't be comfortable buying ads thinking that their decisions may effect editorial coverage."

Sure, clubs probably wouldn't be comfortable buying ads if word got out that a particular club bought a big ad and then got favorable coverage, but that is not the case here. I qoute directly from Dan Savage (Editor of The Stranger) himself:

"...a preliminary investigation of Martin’s writings for the paper did not turn up any direct evidence of Martin having given favorable coverage to bands or clubs she worked with in her capacity as Club Advertising Coordinator."

So it does not at all seem that it was out of concern for the paper's advertisers that led to such extreme measures being taken in response to Segal's and Martin's indescretion.

re: post #83

"The overwhelming concensus in the city's music industry and out, has been that the Stranger's music section had suffered under Dave's leadership. This was definitely expressed to the Stranger's leadership."

Huh, that's funny...I have not heard one single thing from one single person even so much as eluding to that, and I somewhat frequently speak with a number of people from all walks of the city's "music industry" including musicians, DJs (both radio and club), bookers, promoters, band managers, and club owners. Nor have I read anything about that in any of the other 200 plus posts that have been made so far (as of the time of this writing) in the threads regarding Segal's resignation. Could it maybe be that this was the "overwhelming consensus" amongst yourself and your little clique of like-minded friends?

In post #98, Levislade said:

"Right now I'm remembering "Keenan"'s glowing Lineout reference to the Yaris Works events at the Block Party. I was skeptical of them at the time, and this certainly doesn't help.

So stupid. As if Yaris Works is one of The Stranger's major advertisers, so major in fact that they would receive special positive coverage. I suppose you're also remembering Keenan's glowing Line-Out references to the hundreds of other similar minor advertisers the paper has? No? Huh, that must be because they don't exist and you're just pulling shit out of your ass.

In post #11, Fnarf said:

"I don't think it's overboard at all. Asking someone to file journalistic reports under a false name in order to conceal who they really are is unethical, full stop. And if they filled out any IRS paperwork, it's illegal (I'm assuming "Keenan" was a contractor, not an employee; even worse if she was).

I think it is overboard. First off, who says Segal "asked" Martin to write under a pseudonym? Of course you're going to say that it doesn't matter and the fact that Segal knew of it is all that mattered, but nobody is arguing that what Segal (allegedly) did was not unethical. People are merely arguing that forcing him out by giving him the old "resign or your fired" spiel was unecessary and could have been remedied with far less extreme actions. And as far as the illegality of it is concerned, "Keenan Bowen" was being payed as a freelancer, which the IRS defines as a private contractor. As such, The Stranger is in no way accountable for whether or how "Keenan Bowen" would have filled with the IRS and thus they are in no legal jeopardy whatsoever. It's 100% between Martin and the IRS.

In post #78, Jennifer said:

"I'm kind of shocked at how many people think lying is no big deal."

Who said lying is no big deal? Again, nobody is saying that what Segal (allegedly) did is "no big deal". Rather, people are just saying that the actions taken by The Stranger in response to this went overboard.

Now look, I agree that what Dave (allegedly) did was wrong, but it simply does not seem that it was at all necessary to go to the extreme lengths they did by forcing him out. By The Stranger's own admission, after reviewing all the articles and postings that Martin made under the pseudonym "Keenan" they did not find any evidence of any preferential treatment being given to any clubs who bought ads in the paper. Given this, wouldn't a public admission from Segal of wrongdoing and an apology (plus a vow never to do it again) have sufficed? If not, then what about even a suspension or demotion or something like that? But forcing him out the door just seems to go beyond what is necessary.

If The Stranger had found any evidence whatsoever that any clubs who bought ads in the paper were indeed receiving any extra coverage or any preferential treatment in any of "Keenan's" writings, then I would agree with you that The Stranger did the right thing because in that case not only would journalistic integrity and employee trust have been compromised, but real harm would also have been done. But seeing as how this - by The Stranger's own admission - is not the fact of the matter, it seems clear that it was a relatively innocuous case of Segal pulling a couple strings to allow a friend and aspiring journalist to have a shot at writing even though her real job made it a potential conflict of interest. Hardly any nefarious intent there.

This all reminds me of the Clinton impeachment trials where republicans claimed that, since he had lied under oath - which is a serious crime - they had no choice but to impeach him and that any president with any moral fiber would voluntarily step down. If one were to just look at Clinton's lying under oath in a vacuum without considering the context of what he lied about, then yes...the republicans would have indeed been correct in their assertions. But when one considers what Clinton actually lied about - that he had consensual sex with an adult intern - then impeaching him or demanding that he step down starts to look a bit overkill, doesn't it? Well it's the same with The Stranger forcing Dave to "resign". If you look at it in a vacuum, as do such statements as, "journalism and advertising don't mix, period", then sure...it does seem like forcing Segal out was the right thing to do. But when you look at it in context, taken directly from The Stranger's own mouth ("...a preliminary investigation of Martin’s writings for the paper did not turn up any direct evidence of Martin having given favorable coverage to bands or clubs she worked with in her capacity as Club Advertising Coordinator. That position was a salaried support sales staff position, not a commissioned position, and Martin primarily served as an assistant to the senior sales staff"), then it seems to simply go overboard. And that is why so many people are wondering whether outside influences or internal politics at The Stranger (or both) had something to do with Segal's "resignation". I'm not saying it did or didn't, as right now neither I nor anyone else has enough information to know for sure. But when such an extreme measure is taken for what ultimately seems to be a relatively innocuous transgression void of any bad intentions, one can't help but wonder.

And to whichever person is inevitably going to try ridicule me for comparing the resignation of the music editor at The Stranger to the President being impeached, save it. I'm just using that analogy to illustrate my point because it's one in which most people on this blog (unless they're really young) are familar with and I really do think there are valid parallels between the two.

The newspaper did the right thing. I've worked at a paper, and yes, if you're luck the editorial and advertising staff drink whiskey together, party, have sordid affairs even, but NEVER should information posted in print or online by the editorial staff be swayed by advertising. It's not that way at a lot of mass media these days, so I can understand why some of you are so accustomed to it that you don't get why the Strander folks responded the way they did. I can guarantee you that most people working for weekly rags like the Stranger who still are producing real independent editorial content, whether investigative or simply fun culture stuff, work there because of this fact. Let's face it, they could make more money supporting the sales staff or writing content for their corporate counterparts. Believing in the integrety of the content, whether you like the content or not, is what it's all about. So, give 'em a break. And if you think it's overreaction, then keep watching major newschannels and reading your daily, because you don't get it.

And for the record, even sales support staff can have some influence over advertising purchasing decisions, though usually minimal. However these days, getting contracts to renew with you, in particular with clubs, is all about *what did you do for us this year* and the pressure for editorial coverage is huge, because other *trusted* media doesn't hesitate to promise coverage to get an ad buy. So say some client's relationship needs to be strengthened, something goes wrong in an ad... and the pressure is on to give a little something extra in the way of editorial *promotion*. It's a way more realistic of a sceneria than you may imagine. Support people aim to please, both their clients (that's their job) and their coworkers they support (also their job).

Good for you Stranger. Glad papers out there are still giving me a reason to stay in this industry.

Thank you. What people often don't realize is that these church/state violations are as bad for sales interests as they are for editorial credibility. Since no personal gain seems to have been involved here, I might have settled for issuing harsh warning letters, but I don't really know this situation. So thanks.

Dan Savage pointing fingers at others, accusing them of ethically questionable behavior is the height of hypocrisy. How come these "conflicts of interest" weren't an issue for the seven years Kathleen Wilson -- who was constantly writing about her friends or fuck buddies' bands -- was there? Or if Dan really had concerns about his employees beng duplicitous, why then is one of the Stranger's editors Christopher Frizzelle? Wasn't he basically a mole/spy for the Stranger for years while he was an employee of the Seattle Weekly? His reward for selling off damamging inside information was a top editorial postion at the Stranger. Doesn't that fit Savage's definition of ethically questionable behavior? I mean, Dan can talk authoritatively about a lot of issues, but professional integrity is not one of them. The truth is that Segal's dry, relatively humorless approach never fit with the Stranger's overall aesthetic and Savage simply used this as an excuse to fire the guy or force him out, while making himself look like a beacon of respectable journalisim. Dan's latest actions, like his recent columns, are typically self-aggrandizing but pathetically short on substance.

Wow, Greg . . . I'm not really sure what you're getting at with your response. I'm just saying I thought Yaris Works was sketchy at the time, and the fact that someone in advertising was writing about them makes it more so.

And then you ask "First off, who says Segal 'asked' Martin to write under a pseudonym?"

Well, it's actually in the original post, like so:
"We learned that Dave Segal, The Stranger’s music editor, had invited Martin to contribute to the paper using a pseudonym."

I'm not saying one way or the other whether this turn of events is justified, but that's because I acknowledge that I still don't even know exactly what happened, because all the facts are not out. I see a lot of jumping to conclusions here, which I guess makes for good conflict, but isn't very constructive.

RFlair @ #155 has hit the nail on the head. Sure there was wrong-doing here, but to cast the Stranger's actions in some sort of ethical light is totally hypocritical.

Just last week Dan was gleefully rejoicing at getting his hands on damning photos of a local Republican candidate, despite the fact that they were obtained from what should have been a closed website through definitely unethical and possibly illegal means.

Contrast that glee to the damning indignation Dan published of the "Craigslist experiment" which was morally comparable, and you can get an idea of the 'ethics' of this rag.

Inconsistency is okay as long as your ad revenue is not imperiled, eh? They are not ethics if you pick and choose when to apply them.

and after 157 posts and four days I continue to be jaw-droppingly amazed at the inability of some folks to distinguish between conflict of interest and the slippery slope of payola.

I haven't cared about any music writing in The Stranger since Zac Pennington left.

I like Dave. He was and is a talented guy with an uncommonly broad breadth of musical knowledge. I will genuinely miss his writing and editing.

That being said, he did cross a line and did not leave the executive editors any choice. I am disappointed that he violated what is arguably the most important principle of any media organ that accepts advertising.

However, Dave has also earned a large measure of my respect for accepting responsibility and resigning without a bloody fight. I am sorry to see him go and hope that the music community in Seattle will soon again benefit from his creative skills.

...and oh yeah, for all of the people on this thread bitching about how much they hate the Stranger music coverage and how they're going to go out and start their own good music weekly, please do. I'll read it. There's still lots of room in this town for competition. More is better.

The Stranger did the right thing, although I'm actually suprised on the new found ethics. Maybe now you can get a music editor that is both ethical AND has better taste in rock'n'roll. The Stranger's music section has been a serious fucking bore since losing Jennifer Maerz.

Not knowing the details of the situation myself, but knowing the people involved, I seriously doubt there was an instance where "Keenan" wrote about a club she was placing advertising for.

Dave Segal would never be a sell out. I'm sure both he and Ms. Martin were doing this in an overall effort for better music coverage, albeit they should have been more honest with at least their direct managers.

And really, maybe I'll be the only one to say it but even if they weren't being moral about it - outside of weeklies, I know from experience that most magazines are much, much more willing to review artists and provide coverage if you happen to be buying ad space. It's pretty common. Yes, also pretty disheartening. Again, I do NOT think this is the case with Dave and Bailee. Only making the point because it shows the overreaction many of us are feeling from management at The Stranger.

It just doesn't make sense that they felt the need to push a resignation rather than an apology. I find it incredibly hard to believe that Dan Savage really thinks Dave was out to get more ad sales from coverage. Come on.

Anyway, personally I've never enjoyed The Stranger more than when Dave has been editor. I think he did an excellent and commendable job encouraging coverage across many genres, and that the Seattle electronic music scene specifically just suffered a huge loss.

Outside of being an editor, he's a fantastic writer. I'm looking forward to the one bright spot here being that hopefully this allows him more time to actually write, freelance or otherwise. Data Breaker is my favorite, favorite column and it just sucks to think of someone else writing it. Bleh.

"outside of weeklies, I know from experience that most magazines are much, much more willing to review artists and provide coverage if you happen to be buying ad space. It's pretty common."

You are right. However, there is a drastic difference between a music writer reviewing a record or club that's also advertising and the ad rep reviewing a record or club that they've solicited advertising from. The latter has a definite conflict of interest and is definitely considered unethical for any professional publication. An ad rep can say to the music editor, "Hey, these people are advertising, maybe you should consider reviewing them." But they can't write the fucking review! Advertising and editorial are kept seperate for good reason, when an obvious bias is shown, it puts the entire publication's ethics into question. On a zine or small scale publication level where someone is wearing multiple hats writing, editing and selling ads, no one really cares. But for a publication as large as The Stranger, such a breach in ethics certainly cannot be tolerated. They didn't really have a choice but to fire the ad rep and editor if they want to still be taken seriously.

I am sad to see Dave go, but I think it's a shame it had to be over finagling Keenan Bowen's work into the paper. What I remember of her stuff (including the lamentably poor article on The Blood Brothers) sounded like she was trying really hard to run with the big boys and not quite cutting it. I'd buy that Segal was taking a risk to get better coverage into the paper if it had actually been better coverage.

For many years now the only reason I have even picked up The Stranger was to check out Databreaker, Dave's reviews and music recommendations. Looks as though there isn't any point to me looking at the paper anymore. The Stranger has lost an incredible talent.