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Wednesday, July 26, 2006

Decision Day: Washington State’s Gay Marriage Ban is Upheld; Gov. Gregoire Appears to Endorse Civil Unions

Posted by on July 26 at 13:00 PM

[This was originally posted at 8 a.m.]

The Washington State Supreme Court just said no to gay marriage in this state.

The decision is here.

Justice Barbara A. Madsen, writing for a plurality of the five-justice majority, seems to have agreed with the recent decision from New York’s highest court, which ruled on July 7 that the state legislature there could rationally believe that denying marriage rights to same-sex couples protects children. Washington State’s 1998 “Defense of Marriage Act,” which limited marriage to one man and one woman, is in line with the Washington State Constitution, Madsen writes…

…because the legislature was entitled to believe that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples furthers procreation, essential to survival of the human race, and furthers the well-being of children by encouraging families where children are reared in homes headed by the children’s biological parents. Allowing same-sex couples to marry does not, in the legislature’s view, further these purposes. Accordingly, there is no violation of the privileges and immunities clause.

Justice Mary Fairhurst authored the four-justice dissent, writing that the majority had engaged in “blatant discrimination”:

The plurality and concurrence condone blatant discrimination against Washington’s gay and lesbian citizens in the name of encouraging procreation, marriage for individuals in relationships that result in children, and the raising of children in homes headed by opposite-sex parents, while ignoring the fact that denying same-sex couples the right to marry has no prospect of furthering any of those interests. With the proper issue in mind—whether denying same-sex couples the right to marry will encourage procreation, marriage for individuals in relationships that result in children, or child rearing in households headed by opposite-sex parents—I would hold that there is no rational basis for denying same-sex couples the right to marry.

Here are the five justices who voted to uphold the state’s ban on gay marriage:

concurringjustices.jpg

And here are the four justices who dissented from the majority opinion:

dissentingjustices.jpg

Gay rights supporters had demanded marriage rights on three separate constitutional grounds: That the 1998 “Defense of Marriage Act” violated the state constitution’s “privileges and immunities” clause (which essentially prohibits one group of citizens from being given privileges that another group of citizens don’t get); that DOMA also violated the state constitution’s “due process” clause (which says that no person shall be deprived of liberty without due process); and, finally, that DOMA violated the 1972 Equal Rights Amendment to the state constitution (which mandates that members of both genders be treated equally).

Madsen, writing for the plurality, rejected the “privileges and immunities” argument by contending that DOMA does not “grant a privilege or immunity to a favored minority class” (emphasis mine). What she appears to be saying is that if the state grants a privilege to the majority (in this case, heterosexuals), and has a “rational basis” for doing so, it’s not a problem.

She rejected the “due process” argument by contending that DOMA “bears a reasonable relationship to legitimate state interests — procreation and child-rearing,” and added that anyway, the people of Washington “have not had in the past nor, at this time, are they entitled to an expectation that they may choose to marry a person of the same sex.” In other words, gay couples, in her mind, have an unreasonable expectation if they think their due process rights are being violated.

Finally, she rejected the Equal Rights Amendment argument by saying everyone is banned from engaging in state-certified gay marriages, therefore the ban does not represent unequal treatment. “DOMA treats both sexes the same,” she wrote. “Neither a man nor a woman may marry a person of the same sex.”

Religious conservatives, of course, will be elated at this decision. Meanwhile, the reaction from local liberal politicians has been one of dismay, coupled with a renewed promise to push for state recognition of gay unions in the legislature.

King County Executive Ron Sims, who helped start this whole legal process in 2004 by denying marriage licenses to same-sex couples in accordance with DOMA (and then simultaneously inviting a lawsuit to test DOMA’s constitutionality), called today’s ruling an “unwise decision” that is “reminiscent of Plessy v. Ferguson.” Sims continued:

Separate but equal was once the law of the land too, but eventually Plessy was overturned. If the legislature does not make changes first, I firmly believe that a future court will take up this issue again. And on that day, a wiser and more enlightened generation will overturn this ruling.

King County Deputy Prosecutor Bill Sherman, who is running in a crowded race for the state legislature in Seattle’s 43rd District, rushed out a press release saying he is “deeply disappointed” by the ruling. He promised to fight for “full marriage equality for same-sex couples” if he is elected. Expect every other candidate in this race for State Rep. Ed Murray’s House seat to do the same.

Meanwhile, Murray himself, who is running for an open seat in the state senate, seemed to promise he would introduce legislation that would give gays and lesbians the right to marry:

My heart goes out to the thousands of gay and lesbian couples in Washington State disappointed by today’s ruling. But now is not the time to be disappointed — it’s a time to recommit ourselves to the struggle ahead and to someday pass marriage equality in the state Legislature. I will introduce legislation to achieve that equality.

As Murray and others were preparing for an 11 a.m. downtown press conference on the decision, Justice Richard Sanders was on KOMO radio explaining his reasons for voting with the five-justice majority that upheld DOMA. “The court is supposed to uphold the constitution,” he said. “The constitution does not mandate gay marriage.” He continued:

Marriage is something the terms of which is determined by the legislature. They’ve banned consanguinity, you can’t marry someone who’s a family member, you cannot marry someone who’s underage. These are all legislative classifications and the legislature has also said marriage must be between a man and a woman. I could find no part of the Washington State Constitution that conflicts with the traditional legislative role of determining the terms of marriage.

Asked how he would vote on gay marriage if he himself were in the state legislature, Justice Sanders offered a libertarian response: “I’d probably be against it, but on the other hand… maybe the government shouldn’t be in the marriage business.

Answering the argument that the current DOMA law is simply unfair to gays and lesbians, Justice Sanders said:

If we had a statute in this state that said gays and lesbians cannot get married, I think that would be problematic. But the statute says, “Only people of the opposite sex may get married.” So [gays and lesbians] have as much of a right to get married as anyone.

Meanwhile, at the press conference in front of the King County Administration Building (a location chosen because it’s the place in this county where marriage license applications are processed), gay rights lawyers put on their best faces and took pains to point out what they said were a few silver linings in today’s decision.

Roger Leishman, an attorney for the ACLU, along with Jamie Pedersen, an attorney with Lambda Legal (and also a candidate in the 43rd District race), both pointed out that seven of nine Supreme Court justices seemed to have acknowledged today that lesbian and gay couples, and their children, face discrimination. “The Defense of Marriage Act doesn’t protect children—it harms children,” said Leishman, sounding a theme we’re likely to hear a lot more of as gay marriage supporters turn to the legislature for remedies.

Pedersen said that after reading through the justices’ decisions, “I think it’s fair to say that they see that the law that we have now is not a good law.” In an effort to change the law, Murray promised he would, if elected to the state senate this fall, introduce legislation that would allow for gay marriages. He added, however, that he did not expect it to pass next legislative session, or any time soon.

As they were speaking, Gov. Christine Gregoire was pushing out a press release of her own, offering her long promised, and long awaited thoughts on gay marriage. It’s an extremely carefully worded statement, but the only conclusion I can draw from it is that Gregoire endorses civil unions for gays and lesbians, not marriage.

As Governor, I do not believe the state should discriminate against any citizen. I also believe that personal religious beliefs are protected by our Constitution.

On the issue of gay marriage, Washington is a very diverse state and there are many strongly held opinions and personal feelings on this issue. I ask all Washingtonians to respect their fellow citizens. The Supreme Court has ruled and we must accept their decision whether we agree with it or not.

As to my personal beliefs, Mike and I received the sacrament of marriage in the Catholic faith. State government provided us with certain rights and responsibilities, but the state did not marry us.

I believe the state should provide these same rights and responsibilities to all citizens. I also believe the sacrament of marriage is between two people and their faith; it is not the business of the state.

Like I said, it’s a very carefully worded statement, and a bit cryptic, but the most I see in it is an endorsement of civil unions.


CommentsRSS icon

LAME

Fuck.

There is no justice today in Washington State. But the struggle continues. Our state and our country have not lived up to the promise of its core documents.

So, does Jamie Pedersen keep flogging his work with Lamda Legal on the campaign trail?

Back on topic, I'm very disappointed this morning. I thought that our Supreme Court was better than this. Marriage equality will be a reality in my lifetime - just a bit bummed to hear that the Supreme Court wasn't brave enough to do what needed to be done.

OK, time for "full court press" on the legislature to enact equal marriage rights. Is this even feasible with the current makeup?

Fuck. Why does my body keep having viceral reactions to shitty things in the United States? Shouldn't it be used to it by now?

Pathetic and embarassing. If not Washington where? History will not be kind to these justices but for right now I'm very depressed.

So... Washington State is every bit as backwards and fucked up as the rest of this pathetic country.

If the government ever decides to play catch up, it won't find me waiting for it. I am above the law.

So so sorry, Washington. I had truly hoped for better.

Is anyone really surprised about this? I mean come on.

Hurrah for the court taking a step backwards. fuck this.

Hey from Ireland, on a sad morning for equal rights.

It may be cold comfort, but I found the third and fourth paragraphs (of the majority judgment) interesting:

_ _ _"We see no reason, however, why the legislature or the people acting through the initiative process would be foreclosed from extending the right to marry to gay and lesbian couples in Washington. It is important to note that the court's role is limited to determining the constitutionality of DOMA and that our decision is not based on an independent determination of what we believe the law should be. United States Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens talked about the court's role when he described several noteworthy opinions he had written or joined while "convinced that the law compelled a result that {he} would have opposed if {he} were a legislator." John Paul Stevens, United States Supreme Court Justice, Judicial Predilections, Address to the Clark County Bar Association, Las Vegas, Nev. 2 (Aug. 18, 2005). As Justice Stevens explained, a judge's understanding of the law is a separate and distinct matter from his or her personal views about sound policy. Id. at 17.

_ _ _

A judge's role when deciding a case, including the present one, is to measure the challenged law against the constitution and the cases that have applied the constitution. Personal views must not interfere with the judge's responsibility to decide cases as a judge and not as a legislator. This, after all, is one of the three legs supporting the rule of law. Here, the solid body of constitutional law disfavors the conclusion that there is a right to marry a person of the same sex. It may be a measure of this fact that Justice Fairhurst's dissent is replete with citation to dissenting and concurring opinions, and that, in the end, it cites very little case law that, without being overstated, supports its conclusions. Perhaps because of the nature of the issue in this case and the strong feelings it brings to the front, some members of the court have uncharacteristically been led to depart significantly from the court's limited role when deciding constitutional challenges." _ _ _

(As reprinted here.)

Alexander doesn't have a challenger yet. Has filing closed or is through the end of the week? Anyone want to step up?

Allowing same-sex couples to marry does not, in the legislature’s view, further these purposes.

Well guess what, you vile, pathetic piece of shit bitch: neither you nor the legislature have the power to "allow" me to marry. I've been married for years: you're just too fucking backwards and incompetent to recognize it.

The State of Washington will just have to stay behind and smell my farts. See how much that furthers state interests.

I'm glad to hear that the Washington Supreme Court rightfully sided with families and voted to uphold the current ban. All of this reaffirms my belief that gay marriage in this country has no legal standing. Take a look at the recent setbacks as evidence of this. By the way, you Liberals really need to limit the use of profanity. But then again, you guys have no morality that guides you.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. well we said that we would let this determine if we were going to move, so i guess we will. fuck you washington.

For all of you out there that think homosexuals don't have the same rights, think again. They have the right to get married just as heterosexuals have the same right to get married...to the oposite sex. Heterosexuals do not have the right to get married to the same sex...just like gays don't have the same right. "Marriage" is between a man and a woman PERIOD. I am proud of our state for upholding our constitution. For once they've done something good.

This is unfortunate, BUT: Now we need to get active and pass a law to make gay marriage legal (overturn the damned DOMA first). Doing this through the legislative branch will be better than a court ruling. Let's go to Olympia!

Hey Eric,

Go fuck yourself. You must be some ignorant trailer trash from Eastern Washington that has five kids on welfare just repeating what you here from the Republican party. You are a sad man.

Hey Eric,

Go fuck yourself. You must be some ignorant trailer trash from Eastern Washington that has five kids on welfare just repeating what you here from the Republican party. You are a sad man.

Morality is a term used by people to attempt to pass off personal subjective beliefs as objective. For every person who claims that X is moral, there is at least 1 person who claims that X is immoral. And there are a LOT of people who find it highly immoral that gay marriage is illegal.

I find it a slippery slope and don't understand why anti-gay marriage wants laws saying what their church can or cannot do. If the law can say "a church cannot allow gays to marry" why can't the law in 300 years say "a church must marry gays". Either way, the law is dictating the actions of the church. And yea, I realize that this isn't about just churches, but the law is applying to churches because a church that would allow gay marriage is prevented from conducting such a legally binding ceremony.

No, I don't think that would happen because I don't see the pendulum swinging that far in the opposite direction. But if I were a conservative, I'd rather not risk it. Then again, coming to that logical conclusion takes, uh, LOGIC, which is severely lacking in those who are opposed to gay marriage. I've yet to hear a logical, objective argument against it.

Hey Mary,

Can you tell us why marriage is between a man and a woman, period, without refering to a religious belief? Good luck ...

Yay Washington! It's nice to see the Justice's are doing their jobs by upholding the constitution! This is a step forward and I'm proud to have been born and raised here! I'm proud to be straight in this great State!!

this movement needs a real leader to rally the troops. we need someone the caliber of mlk to lead the fight for equal rights FOR ALL! we may have a long way to go, but we need a stronger force to help us get there.

in the meantime, i am moving to vancouver.

Hey Jean,
I won't bring religion into it, but I will answer your question, and the answer is simpler than you make it out to be...it's not natural. In almost all homosexual relationships there is one partner that has male characteristics and one with female. Now I'm not saying this is the case with all. But most. If you take that into consideration, they naturally want to play the part of a heterosexual relationship. And that's just the short answer.

Being straight has nothing to do with supporting gay rights. This comparison has been made a thousand times, but i'll outline it again: remember when interracial marriage was a big deal? and now those people who were against it are seen for what they are: racists. So, those of you who are against homosexual marriages are homophobic, discriminating against someone because of their homosexual orientation. Those of you...you need tolerance training...or something. may your "god" help you.

If we're going to use the lame argument that restricting marriage rights to heterosexuals is in the interest of procreation, shouldn't we require that all heterosexual couples who are married breed withing a specific time frame?

Eat shit and die, Mary. Eat motherfucking shit and die.

Mary - how do you get to decide what's natural for someone else? Consenting adults decide what is natural for themselves, you aren't the natural police. and did you do a study on the personalities of members of homosexual studies? you sound really, really ignorant. all people have varying personalities and it is way more complex than: one of them has to be girly and the other has to be manly..

Hey, Mary: When my boyfriend and I 69, which one of us is the woman?

Jean,

I'm sure you've heard all the arguments on this issue. But the fact remains, we have Bibles for a reason. Without the words of God and Jesus we would be lost and left to define morality for ourselves which you can see is a total disaster. Who is left to define morality if we remove God from the equation? You, me, politicians? Come on! And how can you ask someone to remove their religious beliefs from their reasoning? If you are a true believer, you can't separate the two.

Exactly, Bob - I am straight (currently), married, and have no desire to have children - therefore, my marriage should be illegal too?

Mary, where is the line for what's natural? Are women who don't want to be pregnant "not natural" too?

hey mary, if it's not natural, why is there so much homosexuality in NATURE? like the gay penguins at the national zoo??

Please help me with this and correct me if I am wrong:

The court releases the decision to uphold DOMA. Today is the last day to file to run for office. Alexander is up for reelection and to date is unopposed.

What a Dick.

Truth - everyone decides what is moral for themselves. I find it immoral to drive SUVs, so i don't drive one, but do I punish others who do? NO. I think it is immoral to buy a house in the burbs because it destroys the environment, but do i discriminate against those who do? NO. I could go on and on. You think it is immoral to be gay and get married - but you can't force that on others. Consenting adults should decide what is moral to them.

You do not have the right to tell people what god's rules for morality are. It is for each person to decide that themselves. What we can agree on is that consenting adults should all be treated with respect and equality.

Dear right wing trolls:
Enjoy the schadenfreude (look it up). Sure, come to SLOG and anger already angry people. Whooppee! I'm sure you feel great about it. But would Jesus want you to do that? Why don't you go out and help the poor? Do something for someone else instead of spending all your time trying to take away other people's rights. It's what Jesus would want you to do.

Jean,

I'm sure you've heard all the arguments on this issue. But the fact remains, we have Satanic verses for a reason. Without the words of Satan and his minions we would be lost and left to define morality for ourselves which you can see is a total disaster. Who is left to define morality if we remove Satan from the equation? You, me, politicians? Come on! And how can you ask someone to remove their religious beliefs from their reasoning? If you are a true believer, you can't separate the two.

*some language borrowed from "truth"

Sad ruling. But as Joe Hill said, "Don't mourn - organize!" The courts didn't do it, so it's up to us to make sure the state legislature enacts full marriage equality. I'm sure the new and current 43rd district legislators will be working for it. Let's help elect dems in swing districts to make the majority stronger. Don't move out of state! The law (DOMA) is wrong - let's change it!

People tend to downplay the patriarchy implicit in the blathering idiocy from bigots like Mary and Eric.

Patriarchs think that when my husband penetrates my welcoming sphincter with his rock hard man meat, I become "the woman," and that when I subsequently grab his shoulders and throw him onto his back, in turn entering him and thrusting my cock juice inside him, he becomes "the woman."

And when I tickle his stiffening shaft with my tongue, with my fingers, when I take his balls into my mouth, I must be "the woman." When he penetrates me with his fingers while his tongue teases my nipples, my belly, my dick, uhm, well, I guess it starts getting a little unclear who "the woman" is.

It never occurs to these imbeciles that sexual stimulation is only one component of marriage and sexual orientation. How endlessly fascinated they are with "what I do." How fragile their own marriages must be; how unfamiliar their own sexuality.

Perhaps my memory fails me, but didnt Barbara Madsen get a lot of support from the gay and lesbian community? If memory serves me, I know some folks from the lesbian community in the 43rd who were really for her..

She flipped, what a lame-0 my guess is that she went with the New York ruling, and the last minute thing but Seattle's lame bishop didnt help. History will remmeber those 5 judges.

Having a ban in a modern society is just plain and simple bigotry.

This nonsense has to stop.

Being the ever positive sick puppy that I am, I can find one positive thing in this ruling. Now there will be no drive to ammend the state constitution. With time and the natural attrition (aka death) of a lot old conservative farts, along with the maturity of their somewhat more tolerant offspring, we may have a chance to change the law. Or, Canada is looking might good right now.

I mean by Seattle's lame bishop, not but.

WDFC:
You are right, it is for each person to decide for themselves what is right. These guidlines, according to God are clearly outlined in the Bible.I don't see anything about SUV's or house locale in the Bible. What I do see are specific words defining homosexuality as sin. If any group of people seek to change laws with sin as their guiding force I will let my voice be heard.

No one's going to file for Alexander's seat. Write in Dan Savage's name on your ballot. And try to take heart in the knowledge that these dried up old apples are eventually going to die, and the people who come after are going to be more reasonable because less afraid.

Hey, Truth: what's your Bible say about slavery? Want to bring that back too?

unfamiliar with their own sexuality is so true. i was once a bigot too. not easy for me to admit, but it is true. and then i realized that my bigotry was due to my jealousy of those who take the power to be who they really want to be. I was jealous because i would not set myself free, therefore i tried to repress others as well, so i would not feel alone in my frustration. rather, i would feel redeemed.

that feeling of redemption, it never came.

I thought we were having a rational discussion here. Why are people bringing this bible/fable crap up?

Does anybody the answer to my question regarding Madsen?

Dust off, stand-up, and keep fighting.

Honestly though, marriage is THE Gold Ring, so don't cry about missing it for too long. There are many other brass rings to be won. Civil Unions in Washington are a wide open issue. (BTW, counter-to-popular belief, staight couples in WA do not have a 'common-law' "just-as-good-as-being-married-after-a-seven-year-shack-up" status other states have, but it should.) Many straight people would be good allies for the gay marriage movement, if the payoff are civilly recognized unions. Or just be mad at straight people, if that is all that makes you happy.

Can any of you realistically think this had a chance?

Seriously.

20 years from now this will be a non-issue (clarification: Gay marriage will eventually take place). However. lets be adults and realize that all change takes time

BTW, in answer to Dan Savage's question to Mary.
Dan, It's a stupid question. Mary was refrerring to a relationship, not a sexual act. Your question is strictly limited to a sexual act.


Hm. Maybe I should head downtown and file for Alexander's seat. What do I need?

if you agree that "it is for each person to decide for themselves what is right." ...then what does that have to do with the bible's guidelines? i'm not a christian. i'm also not a bigot.

Fnarf~

Is that the best you can come up with? That's a tired argument and we all know the answer.

5-4 is close. And a couple of the majority justices look pretty old. But in the end, this needs to be done in the Legislature. The "activist judge" mantra is red meat for the ignorant in this state.

I love how "it's not natural" is used as an argument in this... heads up folks, MARRIAGE is "not natural", it's a a legal and traditional construct designed to smooth over things like custodial and property rights and inheritance issues. What is "natural" about hetero relationships is that babies happen, and they have been happening for FAR LONGER than any marriage right or any court protecting it. And what makes the "babies happen"ing part of natural hetero sex an improvement on what is happening in same gender intercourse? Um... umm... um... D'oh!! (hint, "be fruitful and multiply" is a religious argument, sorry)

So, Mary, I can tell you there are plenty of marriage-free natural hetero intercourse acts out there resulting in children. And letting Dan and his 69ing partner call their bond a marriage ain't gonna change that, nor will it improve the skills of the myriad hetero parents out there who are intereceded upon by the child services agencies of every state in this nation every day. But you keep on thinking the problem is monogamous, committed queers. That'll make everything better. (/snark)

remember that huge scandal in the catholic church - the pedophilia run amok....

this is similar. religion is a great moral-seeming place for bigots to hide behind, while they pursue their not-so-moral agenda.

Truth, i would say that's where you are, right about now.

Did anyone stop to think that the decision could be a pragmatic one, with a very cold (but hidden) eye toward the political reality we all face? Reminder: I'm in CA but I have been a Washington attorney for 28 years now. I wrote to a friend here this morning, a queer attorney:

"Yes, although the fight is far from over. I had to cry for a while this morning but now I'm just mad. I saw that Madsen (who is usually a decent judge, and whom I respect) commented about the difficulties that queer families face, and mentioned that the legislature just might want to do something about it. Given the totally inane and specious reasoning in that opinion, my suspicion is that the Court was thinking of the _political_ realities in Washington and nationally, and decided that it was best to let the political process play out a while longer.

"Washington is a very pragmatic state. It has a long populist tradition of doing good for its citizens. The judges know that and, usually, act in that tradition. I am just hoping that the court's motivation was to push for a legislative step that it knew would survive, rather than take a judicial step that would cause a war that could push gay rights in Washington back into the dark ages. I choose to think of it that way -- I have to think of this in some positive light."

Think about it. The danger is there, as much as we hope for full equality. We have a poorly-reasoned, easily trashed decision against us. We have a well-reasoned, impassioned dissent that in time will become the law of this state -- when the political reality is there to back it up. In the meantime, both the plurality opinion (ie, Madsen's) and the dissent support a legislative change for the betterment of gay families.

We did not get what we want or deserve. But let's seize what we did get and run with it. No crying. Get MAD! GET ORGANIZED! AND GO!

Yes, Truth, we all know the answer: your book promotes slavery and the killing of infidels. Good on ya. You're a champ. You and people like you are an affront to human decency.

Madsen is just plain lame.

You know, I could give a flying fuck about "marriage" - the idea of having some idiot with a "divnity degree" (read: unable to get a real job) sanction any relationship I have in the name of a undoubtedly indifferent deity is hillarious.

What I care about are the benefits. Let the Bible thumpers go on and on about marriage (the joke will be on them when they die and find they're just, well, dead, and it was all a fairy tale) but give me the survivor rights on my partner's pension (or his on my 401k if he outlives me) and the right to tell wacky Christian inlaws (who only care when there's money to be had) to go fuck themselves.

Get the government out of the marriage business, and leave that to the weak-minded and the clergy who prey on them. Make every government sanctioned relationship a civil union.

I agree, Catalina. Government should not be in the Mawwaige business at all.

Do it Dan!!!! For the love of god, do it!!!!!!

I'm with you. We should pass civil-union law, and void state-recognized marriage alltogether. I say that as a married heterosexual person.

Okay, Truth, then what's it say about divorce? You want to make divorce illegal? How about failing to honor one's father and mother? Shit, that's one of the top 10 no-nos in your precious book of fairy tales. Shouldn't we be executing kids who talk back?

It's all such garbage. As Ahura said, maybe you should try actually helping people instead of focusing so much energy on telling people what they're not allowed to do. If Jesus came back now, he would never stop throwing up -- not because of us, because of you.

WDFC~

God gives us free will. We have the choice to let our own sinful nature be our guiding force or to follow God. When we reject Him we pay the price. When we follow Him we may still face consequences but we have forgiveness and the promise of a better life in heaven.

look, i'd rather not engage you any further. you are obviously a religious fanatic, read: insane.

Not to discourage Dan, but I thought that Alexander had a well financed right wing opponent, John Groen.

Also, I don't know about Madsen's support in the gay community, but Madsen did recieve the endorsement of the 43rd District Democrats last go around. I suspect she may have a tougher time next go around.

Dan, regrets - you need to be a licensed attorney before you can be a judge.

Hey, Truth: God wants you to start enjoying your better life in heaven right away. I'll loan you the rat poison.

I honestly don't give a shit what you do in the privacy of your own church, but when you flaunt your neuroses as a point of pride ("shoving it down my throat," to use your own vernacular perhaps), don't be surprised when I hit you.

but since the government is in the business of marriage, and thats unlikely to change anytime soon....i dont think we'll even get shitty civil unions anytime soon. look how long it took them to pass the anti-discrimination law. and if the court really wanted to, they coulda kicked it down to the legislature with a time frame.

If people are going to pull religious beliefs into this, then it certainly goes the other way too-- what about all of the clergy who will perform same-sex marriage? the people who believe for religious reasons that same-sex couples should have the right to marry?

Oh, wait, I forgot that all people in America have 1 set of religious beliefs that they're allowed to subscribe to...

really, i think the next best thing, is to sink every penny we have to get arnold out of office in California. Then there will be legislated marriage passed and the 'activist judge' thing will be extinguished.

This board is a prime example of why these decisions are being upheld.

Like those supporting Gay Marriage, people asking for equal rights, respect, recognition, understanding,etc...

I think someone needs to remind all of you that that same is expected towards those od us with religious beliefs.

There are plenty of people, even in Seattle, who have faith. This does not mean that they are the "Reigious Right, Bible Thumpers". Plenty who attend services as a Community, vote democrat and support the concept of Gay Marriage.

However, when you attack people's fundamental beliefs, as many of you on this board do, you've lost the argument before it has begun.

This decision had very little to do with our legal system and everytyhing to do with Politics. BTW, yes, there is a difference.

this is why the war in iraq is bullshit..

we are not even free in our
own country.. why should we care about anyone else..

sad day.. also scary mary

you suck hope you rought in hell god hates you..

love johnnb

My one question is:
Have any of you actually read the Bible?
Do you realize what you're saying?
Do you understand all the words you are putting into Jesus's mouth and shoving down your God's throat?

Go get a study Bible, with all of the footnotes at the bottom of the changes of text and wording noted. It is truly amazing what men have done with the word of peace, tolerance, charity, and love from Jesus. It makes me ill and angry.

There is no reason for this opression to be happening, except for the sickness that is hate which exists in the minds of men.

The only people who are truly harmed by same-sex marriage are the same-sex couples who aren't allowed to legally marry. It harms us and our families that we can't marry, it does not help a single heterosexual marriage to deny it to us.

i hate the photo of those five judges smiling at me.

I just don't get it.

In what way would allowing gay marriage impact whether or not heterosexual couples are able to marry and/or have/raise children?

If my sister gets to marry the gal of her dreams, would it mean that I'd have to stop having sex with men or would it mean that my guy would never marry me?

Do gay relationships cause sterility among heterosexuals? Do we have some kind of population crisis here in the United States that gives procreation some higher importance? If so, I really hope that we're not facing a Handmaiden's Tale-like situation.

"But the fact remains, we have Bibles for a reason. Without the words of God and Jesus we would be lost and left to define morality for ourselves..."


YOU have a Bible for reason. The rest of us are able to decide what is wrong and right ourselves, without being told by a book.

Does anyone at the Stranger have a link to Owens' and Chambers' campaign treasurers?

They both got conservative opposition heavily funded by the Building Industry Assoc. of Washington and if money talks, the vote could have been 7-2.

No one is attacking all people of faith, just the ones who use theirs as a weapon to hurt and attack other families in the name of protecting their own. If you're not one of those people then we're not talking about you.

It would be a HUGE mistake to run against Alexander. As someone else pointed out, he already has a well-financed right-wing oppontent. In the last state supreme court election, Washington's scary right wing managed to get Jim Johnson on the court over Mary Kay Becker (a great court of appeals judge). If that election had gone the other way, this decision might have too. Although today's news is very disappointing, Alexander is a good judge, and doing anything that might contribute to the right wing replacing him with another Jim Johnson would be AWFUL. Have you seen how much money developers are pouring into this election already? They bought Johnson his seat and they can buy this one too.

Paul, there are a lot of loony bigots hiding behind religious faith, which should offend you more than it does me. Speaking only for myself, I will continue to call them out on their hypocrisy and attack them on a very personal level. That should not offend you.

Alexander doesn't have an opponent. Chambers does, and it didn't change his vote on this issue.

chris yes i have read the bible many times.

i was a very religous before
but know i want to burn every church and go to hell
so i can beat you up when i see you there..

It's almost time to re-elect Susan.

"Eat shit and die, Mary. Eat motherfucking shit and die."

Fnarf, this is why you are my boyfriend. someday, we'll totally get married... just as soon as the courts knock off this bullshit (and I make you The Gay)

I respect people who have faith in the Bible.

But it does not go the other way around.

People who say gay rights advocates disdain religion and that is why today's ruling happened are concocting theories to support whatever they happen to believe.

How much do I have to say that I respect anyone's right to religion? I'll say it 10 times, but what I won't do is say that I believe in their religion!

Well, I guess it's time to go back to keeping slaves and having multiple wives like the bible says then.

... or some brave Canadian married gay couple could just sue under NAFTA treaty for full marriage rights.

Hey Jean,

Let me try to put things in perspective for you. Homosexuality is an infringement in our general lives and norms of our society. For instance, as a society we have seperate bathrooms and locker rooms for both men and women. The reason for this is that we live by the rule that men are suppose to like women, and women are suppose to like men. Do you think our society would allow men to go into womens locker rooms to see them undressed. This is what homosexuals do when they go into lockerrooms or bathrooms of the same sex gender. No parent would want a homosexual to be in the same bathroom that their child is in and lust over that child. Homosexuality is not just un-normal. Take nature, you don't see the male lion trying to have sex with another male lion. Come on people. Who are we fooling? Are we being naive here? I don't have touch on the issue of religion to highlight the wrongness of homosexuality. We should try to help people who are gay and not ecourage them to continue in engaging in dangerous behavior.

eric, will you please post a picture of your cock?

"the words of God and Jesus we would be lost and left to define morality for ourselves"

Hebrew-christian sect- legends have nothing to do with me. I consider them silly and irational. If you want to beleive in them, fine. Its your right, I dont impose my beliefs on you so dont impose your YHW on me, save him for musicians who want to thank him on music award shows.

But dont get all "victimy" on me, religion is in our face 24-7, as an atheist, I resent it, but hey I learned to grow a thicker skin and just dont pay any attention. I dont think you should have a right to legislate.

As someone said, marriage is a middle ages invention, it has nothing to do with man-woman.

People should be allowed to all the benefits that come from that legal arrangement.

Yo, Truth: all that stuff about "sinful nature" and whatnot? I don't believe it. You do. We have a fundamental conflict here that cannot be resolved. So what then? Well, the Constitution is pretty clear: picking one set of religious beliefs over another isn't allowed. So, to make a law, you'll have to find something OTHER THAN your book and your religion to support your arguments.

But you can't, because they're nothing there. You have NOTHING besides your faith, while we have EVERYTHING. We have ALL THE CARDS -- science, logic, reason, justice, truth, compassion, fair play. The American Way. That's why you feel threatened. You're like Roadrunner when he runs off the cliff, pedalling in midair before he falls.

But fall you will. Mark my words. Our day will come.

oh, and Eric, you're a douche.

Poor Eric. He's ill.

I don't see what's so "shitty" about civil unions. What I think is stupid is how we have let the republicans and the fundamentalist Christians control the language on this.

It goes like this:

Marriage is, to Christians, a sacrament. It's the equivalent of a sacrament for most other faiths.

Religious people don't want the government telling them what their church can or can't do.

People who are paying attention know it's not about that, but the vast majority of people out there don't really care, so they don't really listen, and default to the conservative viewpoint.

Wackos (like some of the ones we've seen in this posting) fan the flames and keep it going.

If we had just pushed, along with straight people who don't want to get "married", for getting the government out of the sacrament sanctioning business, we might be in a different place right now - we might have even gotten some support from libertarians and those religious folks who are troubled by the intersection of church and state.

But no - we played into the hands of the right wing, and gave them a wonderful issue to bring out the mouth breathers. Those mouth breathers also vote for regressive politicians.

They (the GOP) are masters are manipulating the morons (a sizeable chunk of the population), and we have enabled them in this respect.


We need to organize. This is extremely maddening, and the decision is so logically flawed that I can barely stand it.

Hey Right-wing nuts...this decision says that whatever the legislature determines about marriage, is OK. In other words, they said that the legislature has the power and right to define what your marriage is.

Let's take to the streets.

And, seriously, we've got two days to get a lawyer to challenge Alexander. We need to make his seat on the Court a referendum on this issue.

Oh, Eric, I'm sure you've had to deal with rejection before last night. Once you deal with your "issues" and come out, I'm sure you'll find a perfectly nice husband who digs, uh, you know, fat guys with missing teeth. But it's just not my thing, you know?

The 43rd should take back their endorsement of Madsen. As a symbolic thing.

To correct an earlier misstatement by someone, Alexander and Owens are already facing right-wing challengers. Chambers is currently unopposed.

This decision makes no sense. What a narrow interpretation of what people of different sexual orientations do. Very ignorant assumptions.

Truth,
Do you really think that the way your going about this is working? Your postings are full of judgment and hatred; pointing out sinfull natures and imoralities. Jesus would never have talked like that to someone and you know that. Jesus embrases the issue straight on rather than pointing out faults. You won't convince anyone of the Truth when you put yourself on a pedestal. I recognize that homosexuality is a sin...but we all sin. I sinned this morning by speeding to work. God views all sins equally. If you want to help people see the Truth, go at it from a different angle because this way won't bring anyone to Jesus, it'll push people farther away. If we are to be the hands and feet of the body, we are to walk in God's word and reach out to help save more lives.

It's a tough break, but not that many gays weren't ever terribly invested in this issue anyway. I know it's the principle of the thing, but really--does it matter? Getting gay married is right below going on a gay cruise on my to-do list; I don't need a court or a state to make my relationship any more "real" than it is.

In Eric's world, the "natural" person to be "lusting after" the children is the appropriately opposite-sexed parent. It's only decent.

BTW, Eric, male lions do in fact sometimes mount other male lions. It's not unusual at all, or "unnatural". HOmosexuality has been documented in over 450 species. You're not just bigoted, you're wrong on the facts. Surprise, surprise.

Fnarf,

You present a pathetic argument.

Lions also eat their young, so what's your point?

I just want to clarify a few things. I do not hate homosexuals. I just would like to see a society that would help them as oppose to encouraging them to live that kind of lifestyle. Homosexuals are God's children too, and they must be treated respectfully. The statistics are staggerind. Homosexuals account for about 59 percent of aids cases in the U.S. Anal cancer is dangerously and extremely prevalent in the gay community. It just baffles me how left-wingers are espousing this lifestyle

boomer, you are PAINFULLY mistaken about investment in this issue. I can't even believe that someone would have to explain why marriage rights are a big deal. someone else do it; I'm too mortified.

Boomer: you DO need a state's approval to enjoy any of the thousand or so legal benefits that are granted to married persons. Check your tax return, for starters. Want to be allowed to visit your gay partner in the hospital? Want you be allowed to visit your gay partner's DOG at the vet? Read Dan's book. You have a large number of very specific rights that are being withheld from you.


So I'm trying to wrap my head around the arguments in this case.

Basically it sounds like they are saying that procreation and child-rearing are legitimate goals of the state and that the DOMA is a reasonable response to that because it promotes the above. They also make a mention of how it's important for kids to be with their biological parents and that's a goal as well.

So what about people in their 50s and 60s getting married (i.e. who are past child-bearing age)? Should their marriages be illegal? Or what about heteros who don't want to have children? Or what about step-parents who adopt their stepchildren?

Overall, I'm baffled by this narrow view of marriage. It almost dismissed the idea that marriage has evolved in society as a simple contract for baby-making to a declaration of love and committment to one another. Is marriage for love too radical of a concept?

Help: marriage is a contractual arrangement in which the ownership of a woman is transferred from the father to the husband.

That is the view of marriage that is being upheld. Human inventions may become more advanced; we as a species do not.

David,

That is utter nonsense.

Forget reading the bible, just pick up a dictionary.

Why the need for the term marriage? Why not expand the rights of Civil Unions?

Why not bring marriage back to it's roots as a religious sacrament?

Straight people married outside of a church would have a Civil Union as well?


Help,

At home I have several copies of enclycopedias that date back to the 30s,40s, and 50s. I took a look at the subject of marriage to kind of gauge the interpretation of it during the aformentioned periods. In every encyclopedia it stated the important and intention of marriage to foster the relationships between men and women, and also for the importance of children learning the attributes of both male and female. What's going on today is a redefinition of the concept of marriage. Under all this pressure to change the meaning of it, will in turn lead to a different interpretation of its original intention and meaning of marriage. And this is how liberalism works. It seeks to change the meaning of things to enable it to advance its positions. They like to use the word "choice" when referring to the murder of innocent babies.

:) I knew this was going to turn out this way -- that's why I jumped in! :)

Mary -- You're talking to a biologist. I know damn well that homosexuality is incredibly natural. Just look at bonobos, one of our closest living relatives. Or rather, don't, it would probably disturb you. Same for dolphins -- don't ever watch dolphins again. They have sex as often as we shake hands, and they could care less the sex of their partner. Roughgarden's work pointing out the high frequency of homosexuality in nature was brought up a while ago. Apparently you missed that.

Truth -- Thanks for the good laugh. And by the way, what you said did nothing to counter my argument that morality is subjective. Yes, you can objectively see what the bible says (when it's not contradicting itself) but it's still your subjective belief that the bible is right. I've read the bible, and I subjectively believe that it's not right. What can I say? The bible makes it VERY clear that women are inferior to men (somewhere in Corinthians it puts the order as God, Church, Men, Women) and I see no evidence that either sex is inherently better or worse than the other.

Truth, again! -- Thanks for the better laugh. :)

Eric -- You said: "Homosexuality is an infringement in our general lives and norms of our society."

No, homosexuality has never infringed upon my life. Maybe it infringes upon your life, because you've made it your life to stick your nose into other peoples' lives that have nothing to do with yours. Infringing upon the norms? Sometimes that should happen. Should we really have supported slavery because to oppose it would infringe upon the norms of society at the time? Should I not be allowed to vote because that infringed upon the norm?

...

Sorry, I just read the argument about the locker room thing and it fried my brain. So, by banning gay marriage, we are going to prevent homosexuality and you'll never again have to go into a locker room with gay people again? Amazing. Just amazing. Do you even understand what logic is, let alone how to use it? Fascinating -- it requires my brain to think in new levels of un-logic I have never experienced before.

In Japan, there are same-sex onsens. Young women tend not to go to them because they don't want to be leered at. I'd have absolutely no problem with myself, or my child, being naked in a mixed-sex group as long as people are acting mature and respectful. The problem is not lust, it is the inappropriate acting upon lust. I think homosexuals have the upper hand here. I've never been leered at or otherwise treated disrespectfully by lesbians while in changing rooms, but I have been treated that way by males when I had to get changed in theater. Let's ban heterosexuals! (Hmm, not sure how to ban myself ...)

You also say: "Take nature, you don't see the male lion trying to have sex with another male lion. Come on people. Who are we fooling? Are we being naive here?"

To answer your questions: You are fooling yourself. Yes, you are being naive here. As for the nature thing, yes, there is a plethora of homosexual behavior, particularly in highly intelligent and highly social animals. Humans are a highly intelligent (sometimes) and highly social animal, thus it would actually be quite unnatural for homosexuality to not exist in our species.

Okay, I have to stop now before I start cracking up and have to explain to my office mate why I'm laughing. :)

Homosexuals account for a very small proportion of AIDS cases worldwide. Which is beside the point; what proportion of heart attack or stroke victims are gay? What does it matter?

Paul in Seattle: my point was, if your parents had eaten their young, the world would be a better place.

Face the Facts: Please join a some kind of democratic party strategizing group-thing. I'm not being sarcastic.

Mary - your strategy to "save more lives" doesn't work either. the fact is that not everyone is into your religion or its so-called mandates.

Whatever, Paul. The ruling says my marriage is not equal to someone else's in the eyes of the state.

That's fucked up. Call it marriage, or civil unions, or "Brenda" for all I care.

Your rationalizations are no help here. This is patriarchy, plain and simple. Fear and aggression. It's what binds humans to the animal kingdom they are so desperately a part of.

The court's decision on the "privileges and immunities" clause is bullshit. What better purpose is there for that clause than to protect the minority?

However, I do agree with the decision on the ERA argument. The ERA only covers discrimination based on gender, not sexual orientation. Perhaps the best way to ensure marriage equality is to get the legislature to include sexual orientation in the Equal Rights Amendment.

There are two things I don't get in this comment thread. First, how the hell could churches be forced to marry two people of the same gender? For one thing, that would be a violation of freedom of religion. The Church of Latter Day Saints reserves the right to refuse to marry a Mormon to a Gentile. There are many conservative Christian, Jewish, and Muslim sects that would refuse to marry a member of their religion to an outsider. It's not illegal and never will be.

Second, I don't understand the argument that government should get out of the marriage business and just have civil unions. We have civil unions. Straight couples can get married in church, at city hall, wherever the fuck they want, and their marriages are just as valid. This just goes to prove that people who are against marriage equality are nothing but homophobes.

YEEEEE-hawww!! Next year, I'll be introducing an initiative I hope you all sign that will put the darkies back in shackles. Because, hey, if the majority wants to make blacks slaves again, then we can do it, and there ain't nothin' the courts will do about it. Woo hoo!

Where can we take to the streets? Where can we meet? When? I feel such a need to express my displeasure over this, I need an outlet.

David,

This is patriarchy? Dude, we live in the Nanny state, you can't smoke indoors, get a lap dance, whatever and your complaining that you can't Marry someone of the same sex?

It sounds great to get all lathered up and start organizing, but if you are going to organize under the argument presented here, people will not take you seriously.

I am for gay marriage, I am trying to point out that coming across as a bunch of hysterical idiots is not the way to accomplish this.

Like it or not, PR is a big impact in the court of public opinion.

Fnarf: Nice argument. I have to say, every topic, every day, is filled with fnarf Comments. I would say that you REALLY NEED A LIFE.

Paul, I have already informed you that I am married.

You deny that is possible, then claim to support gay marriage.

Fuck you, hypocrite.

Keshmeshi...

You bring up a really good point. The thing is, you CAN get married at City Hall, reserve the term Marriage to Churches and Civil Unions (both with the same benefits) to everywhere else and this discussion is over.

Clarification...

Reserve the term marriage for any Religious organization, not just churches.

Yo, Eric: here's a few other things for you to look up in your 1930s encyclopedia: "Germany", "Negro". While you're at it, try "DNA", "Quark", "Space travel", "Civil rights".

Okay, Paul in Seattle, you are continually an asshole on these blogs, and your contributions are usually excellent examples of ignorance, anger, and general low-IQ style stupidity. Just thought someone should let you know. You can counter-attack all you like, but that will not change the fact that this is my general view of your postings. I hope my honesty does you some good, and you open your mind and try and learn something here every once and awhile. Therefore, you may succeed in sparing us the anguish of feeling pity for you in your having to bear your own small-minded existence. Good luck.

Mary~

I appreciate your feedback. Please point out exactly what I said that was hateful? Yes, we are all created equal and we are all sinners. There is no "sin scale", as God views both murder and stealing as equal sins. We all have sin in our lives that needs to be dealt with. However, my point is when it comes to changing laws to support a sinful lifestyle I will not keep quiet and neither should anyone else who believes the words of God. It is not for me to judge others, but God does call us to hate sin and speak the truth. There is a way to treat people with love and kindness without condoning the sin they are trying to LEGALLY inforce on society. I did not insult anyone by calling their lifestyle unnatural! I simply stated that it is sinful in the eyes of God. Whether people care about that or not is their choice and there are consequences for not believing the truth according to the Bible.

Keshmeshi said: "There are two things I don't get in this comment thread. First, how the hell could churches be forced to marry two people of the same gender? For one thing, that would be a violation of freedom of religion. The Church of Latter Day Saints reserves the right to refuse to marry a Mormon to a Gentile. There are many conservative Christian, Jewish, and Muslim sects that would refuse to marry a member of their religion to an outsider. It's not illegal and never will be."

I brought up this idea. The idea is that, if the state can dictate marriage (right now to say you can't marry same sex couples), then why can't it continue to dictate in the future (to say that you have to allow same sex couples to marry). It's by that logic alone that, even if I were a conservative and didn't want same sex marriage, I wouldn't try to ban it through gov't laws. And like I said, I don't ever expect the pendulum to swing that far in the opposite direction.

We're already talking about a violation of freedom of religion. I'm sure there are religious groups (particularly pagan, but probably some Christian churches, too) who would like to practice that part of their religion which would allow gay marriage, but they're banned from that. Of course, people tend to think that "freedom of religion" means only "freedom of Christian religion", because that's the only religion. :P Yea, right.

keshmeshi, of course churches can't (and never will be) forced to perform a sacrament, but you have to look at it from a different perspective.

Gay "Marriage" matters to three groups: Gay people, anti-gay people (of whom fundamentalists are a major part), and politicians (mostly of the right-wing variety)

Part of the fundamentalist/right wing mindset is victimization: It is fed to them constantly through their myths - the persecuted Christian, the liberal media, the democrats out to take away their guns, the idea of Bush as a Christan, blah blah blah.

To these people, the idea of gay marriage means imposing on their religious faith, since most of them don't have a very good grasp of civics or government to begin with. It plays into the myths - it is a direct attack on their faith, and fulfills their victim complex.

The GOP knows this, and this is why abortion and gay marriage are such money makers for them - and such marvelous distractions for their anti-american and anti-middle class policies.

It doesn't make sense to normal people, but when you look at it from their perspective, it all falls into place

David,

So sorry, my post did not come across as intended. I did not mean to say that your argument is nonsensical. You are presenting a stron, intelligent argument.

Please accept my apologies.

What I should have said, was...Unlike the majority of the other arguments posted her, while It sounds great to get all lathered up and start organizing, but if you are going to organize under the argument presented here, people will not take you seriously.

BTW David, if you are in a same sex marriage, you need to change that to you were in a same sex marriage and are now in a civil union.

And what I am proposing (changing of terms) would apply to myself as well. My wife and I were not married ina church, we were married (should i change that to agreed to a civil Union?) by a priest who had left the priesthood in order for himself to be marry or take part in a civil union. (That's a whole seperate discussion, can we say Vatican 3?)

Breeder with a question (and I apologize if it offends):

Is same sex marriage more about the benefits of marriage (tax, legal, Social Security, etc.), or the condition of being "married" (regardless of benefits)? I realize that it's both, but which is more important?

Thanks

"there are consequences for not believing the truth according to the Bible."

Truth, keep telling yourself that, buddy, keep telling yourself that....

It is unconstitutional for any government to recognize the supposed "sinfulness" of homosexuality. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Your beliefs are not the truth.

Remember, there's a KUOW phone in today at 1 pm and you can also phone in comments ahead of time.

WSDAVE: You can drop the "same sex" modifier; it's just "marriage."

This is about the state's interest in marriage. The state has no interest in any vague notion about "the condition of being married."

I say neither. It's about the unjustified discrimination taking place.

WS Dave -- I suspect that every couple would answer your question a bit differently. For some, it could be more about the legal issues; for others, it could be the symbol. For my partner and myself, the symbol of equality is more important. But we live in CA, a state with a domestic partnership law that gives us substantial equality on a state level, at least.

Jean,

With regard to my locker room example. I can't belive you would be perfectly OK with someone lusting over your child in a locker room or problem setting, as long as they don't act upon that lust. Man these liberals. Sexuality and Slavery are two different issues. Slavery had nothing to do with the protection of marriage. You say that homesexuality does not infringe upon you. To be honest, when I hear statements like that it makes proud to be a conservative, as well as a christian. People who think like you really have little regard for moral decency. I care about this country and the direction that its is going. I think pornography is wrong and should be outlawed. But you probably don't have a problem because don't care as you say it does not infringe upon you. That kind of thinking is pretty dangerous. It shows a complete disregard for upholding moral virtues. With regard to my lion example, my purpose in writing that is just to show that nature, God, never created our bodies to engage in homosexuality behaviour. Male lions cannot get impreganted by another male lion, lol. "A plethora of homosexual behavoir among highly intelligent and social animals." What planet are you living in? Our very existence would be in jeapordy if our society became a society full of gays. That alone should wake us up. The human anus was not created to withstand penetration. Nature/God created man for woman and woman for man. You wouldn't be here exist if that wasn't the case.

David S,

Point taken, but it didn't really answer the questions.

I'm married ONLY because of the legal benefits; my wife didn't take any part of my name, and our children both have her last name. I didn't want to get married because I oppose the state having a say, but my wife convinced me of the advantages.

If I had my way, there would only ever be civil contracts.

Again I ask: Is it more about the advantages, or the principal of the thing? Or, conversly, is that putting the issue too simply?

Do people believe that straight couples are better at raising a child than gay couples?

So far the scientific evidence has shown children raised by gay couples do about as well as any children do.

Where is the proof of the superiority of straight parents that seems the basis of the court and legislature's opinion?

I don't mean bible quotes. I'm talking about empiric scientific proof. Do the courts seriously believe that foster care is better than being raised by a married gay couple?

It seems like there is a need for something like the doll test http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Clark_%28doll_test%29

Eric, at least learn how to compose sentences and divide your thoughts into paragraphs. Your posts are just messes that are almost impossible to get through.

Go away...

My low IQ? That's Cute.

So, should I turn back in my Degree's because an anonymous poster on this blog says, "you never agree with me, therefore your are stupid"?


BTW David, if you are in a same sex marriage, you need to change that to you were in a same sex marriage and are now in a civil union.

Respectfully, no. My marriage was above the law yesterday. It remains above the law today. I just have a little less respect for the law today.

WSDAVE: I mistakenly thought I was clearer. Yes, as far as the state is concerned, their interest in marriage is limited to the benefits, obligations, responsibilities and protections afforded by the institution. Whatever additional meaning gets attached to the institution is up to the individuals involved.


I just loooove how homophobes use the “it's not natural” argument to support their bigotry and then conflate the defense that same-sex attraction exists in a variety of species with an affirmation that we should all be animalistic. Hey geniuses! See if you can spot the spurious reasoning in this dialog:

Eric: Lions do not engage in homosexual behavior (implying that homosexuality is a human characteristic and nonexistent in the natural world)

FNARF: Eric's statement is factually incorrect. The conclusion he draws (homosexuality is undesirable because it's unnatural) is based on a false premise and is therefore unreasonable (more likely than not, just willful ignorance). It is not a valid argument to oppose homosexuality based on the perception that it is unnatural.

Paul in Seattle (in apparent support of Eric's reasoning): Ah ha! Lions also eat their young. FNARF's argument is ridiculous.

Do I have to spell it out for you??? FNARF never argued that all natural characteristics (such as eating one's young) should be permitted by humans. In fact, FNARF never used the “it's natural” argument in support of gay rights, only as defense against weak argument against gay rights.


I just loooove how homophobes use the “it's not natural” argument to support their bigotry and then conflate the defense that same-sex attraction exists in a variety of species with an affirmation that we should all be animalistic. Hey geniuses! See if you can spot the spurious reasoning in this dialog:

Eric: Lions do not engage in homosexual behavior (implying that homosexuality is a human characteristic and nonexistent in the natural world)

FNARF: Eric's statement is factually incorrect. The conclusion he draws (homosexuality is undesirable because it's unnatural) is based on a false premise and is therefore unreasonable (more likely than not, just willful ignorance). It is not a valid argument to oppose homosexuality based on the perception that it is unnatural.

Paul in Seattle (in apparent support of Eric's reasoning): Ah ha! Lions also eat their young. FNARF's argument is ridiculous.

Do I have to spell it out for you??? FNARF never argued that all natural characteristics (such as eating one's young) should be permitted by humans. In fact, FNARF never used the “it's natural” argument in support of gay rights, only as defense against weak argument against gay rights.

Eric: Wow, I stand down. There is nothing that I could add to your post to make you look "stoopider" than you've already made yourself look (the "lol" in particular is a nice touch -- the reserve of the desperate). Hooray for ignorance and inability to think rationally!

Mission accomplished.

Eric - fyi - i'm going to have to start skimming right over your posts, as reading anti-sex extremism is really a waste of time. porn is a multi-billion dollar industry and is not going anywhere.

and anal is pretty fun too and isn't going anywhere either.

WSDAVE,

I am a lesbian and I call my wife, well, my wife.

We want the legal benefits, especially as we now own a home and are starting on our child getting/making path. I want the same benefits and rights my parents had in raising me.

That said, we had a "wedding" and invited as many people as we could to witness our commitment to each other. We want our relationship to have the same weight as any hetero marriage in our eyes and everyone else's.

"So, should I turn back in my Degree's because"...

That makes no fucking sense.

David,

Good luck with that...

If I choose to belive that driving 50 in a school zone is perfectly legal....

Mary is a cunt rag and can't get a man. That is why she is devoting most of her time hating homosexuals. Low life!

Go away..

Of course it makes no sense, you see, I have a low IQ.

If I choose to belive that driving 50 in a school zone is perfectly legal....

The argument has nothing to do with what you believe is legal, but what you believe is right.

If you believe driving 50 in a school zone is right, you are truly fucked up.

Where the law makes itself ridiculous, it diminishes its own power to secure order.

so, are go away and my lord the same troll?

David,

before we go off on the deep end.

I REALLY do agree with you.

Whether we call it marriage, Civil union or as your example previously, Brenda. It should apply to all.

Mary: Keep all religion out of the civil marriage issue. I don't need your religions blessing in order to prove my love and commitment to my partner. Separation of church and state.

Eric: You obviously like to hurt people with your ignorant comments. I suggest all others ignore his incessant ramblings and offer him no more satifaction.

Also, I am sure that every time you have sex (if ever) that it is strictly for procreation purposes ;p Yeah, right.

I think you are the troll, Paul.

Community Gathering

The Washington State Supreme Court has ruled for discrimination and against marriage equality. The judges failed to do their job. It’s up to the legislature to end this discrimination. And it’s up to us to raise our voices and speak out about who LGBT families are and why marriage matters.

Come hear about:

  • the background of the case
  • what the decision means
  • what the next steps are

from LGBT organizations and elected officials

A Q&A session will follow.

Cal Anderson Park, Sunday the 30th at 2PM
Brought to you by Marriage Equality Now

I've not seen this site before today and I must say I am not impressed! Christians and others not "for" gay unions are full of hate? The only hate I've seen spewing out is from those who ARE for gay unions. If you want to convince people of your way of thinking, it might be helpful to lose the foul language and name calling to elevate the caliber of your arguments. You accuse Christians of hating gays and lesbians because they don't agree with their lifestyle -- yet you obviously don't agree with the Christian lifestyle and are slinging hateful comments all over the place. Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? And I find it interesting that non-Christians find it totally acceptable to bash Christians, but Christians are hateful if they express an opinion contrary to what the non-Christians choose to believe. If you expect Christians to "accept" you, perhaps non-Christians should give the same courtesy to them.

To all of you whom disagree with me. God loves each and everyone of you. That's what is so great about God. You can speak sacriligous of Him or live contradictory to his teachings, and he will always and continue to love his children, and find it in his heart to forgive you. I value and respect your opinions.

Poor Uneducated Eric:

"For instance, as a society we have seperate bathrooms and locker rooms for both men and women."

-Not true Eric. Have you ever been to Europe? No? Oh wow, what a surprise. If you were to ever expand your limited horizons then maybe you would see that in other countries(France, Belgium, etc) it is quite commen to have uni-sex bathrooms, locker rooms, etc. So there you are wrong.

"The reason for this is that we live by the rule that men are suppose to like women, and women are suppose to like men."

-Once again, wrong. it is more based off the puritanical values of the USA.

"Do you think our society would allow men to go into womens locker rooms to see them undressed."

-Once again, other coutries allow this. Especially countries that have nude beaches.(how scandalous!)

"No parent would want a homosexual to be in the same bathroom that their child is in and lust over that child."

-Ok, what you are refering to is "Peodophilia". I will make this argument: So you like women right? that is "normal" right? So does that mean that you like little girls? Do you lust after 5 year old girls? 12 year old girls? My guess is no. Gay people like people of the same sex and similar age. I am sure when they were 14 they like 14 year old boys. Just like when you were 14 you liked 14 year old girls. I am sure that you "lust" after 16 year old girls. Many adult men do. Why? because they are thin and atrractive. Does that make you a peodophile? in some state laws, yes.

"Homosexuality is not just un-normal. Take nature, you don't see the male lion trying to have sex with another male lion."

- this has already been stated above, but there are plenty of homosexual animals in nature. Just like left-handed people; its not commen, but there are people born left-handed (the "evil hand" in many religions, since people used to wipe their shit with their left hand)

"We should try to help people who are gay and not ecourage them to continue in engaging in dangerous behavior."

-Hum. Dangerous behaviour? you mean sex? Sex is equally dangerous for all sexual orientations. Its not like the early 80's when AIDS first started to spread. But guess what? AIDS/HIV is found in all ethnicities and sexual orientations. Dumbass.

So fuck off you uneducated, piece of shit. And I am a striaght married woman (left-handed, btw). Oh, and I make all the money and my husband stays home. Is that un-natural? Should "god" strike me down?

Fucking right wing morons... =/

You know, Eric, if you really believe what you just wrote about God loving everyone, then let God do the loving AND the judging (whenever that happens). You go on about YOUR OWN business, being a good Christian, and stay out of the judging business. God doesn't need your help.

Thanks, BWA. You got it.

I don't believe humans should imitate lions. It was in fact ERIC who made that suggestion, that homosexuality in humans is unnatural because lions don't do it. As you point out, the premise of this is false, because lions DO do it, which vaporizes Eric's argument; but the connection between lions and humans was made by Eric, not by me.

Eric then goes on to suggest that humanity will die out if we all become homosexuals, which is true enough. I'm unaware of anyone arguing that we all should become homosexuals, though. Most advocates suggest rather that homosexuals should be homosexuals, which seems like common sense to me. Most of humanity will continue to breed; in fact, quite a few homosexuals will end up reproducing at some point; it's not exactly an all-or-none proposition.

I'm sure Eric is looking forward to his impending death from prostate cancer, since his "one way" anus can't withstand the penetration required to detect it. It's the only safe thing to do. After all, if anything ever goes IN your butt, you immediately die, right? But that still doesn't address the issue of homosexuals who don't have anal sex.

Folks, this is just ignorance and fear. Eric fears that homos are after his kids, and he fears that homos are after HIM, and worst of all he's afraid he'll LIKE IT. That is a tragic state to be in, a far more oppressive prison than being denied some rights.

Golob: you are confused if you think scientific evidence will help you win arguments with these people. Scientific evidence is PRECISELY what they are most afraid of. Science has been chipping away at the edifice of certitude for a century now. People like Eric are saying "kids shouldn't be raised by gays BECAUSE gays are just as good at it". The more they bleat about their beliefs, the more you can be sure those beliefs are shaky. We are witnessing an historical meltdown of a worldview. It's only natural that they should retreat into redoubts of prejudice and hate. Look at it this way: they think they're losing everything. It's coming, and they know it, and they're terrified.

Eric, you have no earthly idea what God's teachings are. You have a book written by men. For you to claim to know God's will is like an ant claiming to understand particle physics.

FNARF Wrote:
".... is like an ant claiming to understand particle physics...."

Or your average human...

---Jensen

Fnarf:

I totally agree with you. Eric and his friends are a minority of the overall US population. The problem is that so many moderates only hear the certitutde that these shaky beliefs are wrapped in. I say weaken the wrap with hard scientific facts. It can only help to challenge every factually wrong assumption.

Heh, I am hopelessly confused about all this idiocy that hurts so many of my friends. Call me a foolish optimist, but I believe that most (but not all) people can be swayed by good scientific evidence. Helps me sleep at night.

Eric, Mary, Truth - you know, I'm all for respecting persons of faith, so long as they extend the same courtesy to others who believe differently than they do, but...SWEET JESUS, you people are idiots!!!

What are you so THREATENED by? Are you genuinely afraid that someone of your gender might appraise you with lustful intention? Well, a) chances are you aren't exactly that irresistable, and b) how is that different from being a woman being leered at by lustful males everywhere she goes?

And PLEASE stop using the Bible to justify bigotry. A Christian is supposed to abide by the New Covenant. According to Paul, that is the words of Christ himself - the Gospels. The New Covenant supersedes the Old Covenant which was given to the Jews. That is why Christians were no longer required to abide by the laws of Leviticus, including the one y'all love to quote on this particular topic.

Here is everything Christ himself said on the topic of same-sex love and marriage:
...
...
...

...
...
...

On the other hand, he had volumes to say on the evils of greed, selfishness, and judgemental behavior. Hmmm...

I don't really understand the "well, homosexuals can't procreate" argument either. Um, wrong. I would say nearly all the gay and lesbian couples I know these days have children. I was reared by lesbians myself. And if procreation is the purpose of marriage, someone explain to me why I and my husband were permitted to marry: I'd had a tubal ligation and he'd had a vasectomy before we married. Why do we allow postmenopausal women to marry, or persons who've been sterilized, if marriage has something to do with procreation?

The purpose of marriage is to provide a stable societal unit. Why any sane person would oppose two persons who are committed to one another from forming such a union because there aren't the right number of innies and outies is beyond me. Why are we running around counting penises?

Lou,

Anytime you get a debate like this, there will be a lot of hate spewed on both sides. In this forum, you'll see more of it against Christians just because there are more anti-Christians in here than Christians. Just go to the South, however, and you will see the opposite -- a lot of hate against non-Christians.

The problem with your argument is that this isn't about opinions. I believe that Christians *should* believe homosexuality is a sin because I think the bible is pretty clear on that. (And it's because I didn't believe that, as well as not believing that women are inferior to men, that I decided I could not be a Christian). I think that it is acceptable (but not necessary) that as a Christian one believes that gay marriage is wrong. The problem is that people are trying to take that OPINION, that RELIGIOUS BELIEF and make it LAW. As a Christian, you can hold and practice your belief without forcing it upon others. You can give them the freedom to make their own choices without hurting your belief or practice at all.

I totally accept Christians. I totally believe that they should be allowed to practice whatever beliefs they want, as long as they aren't hurting others (e.g., I believe polygamy is okay unless there is evidence that it is harmful to children, etc) and as long as their practice does not infringe upon my ability to act upon my beliefs within my life. In other words, I won't force you or any other Christian to enter into a gay marriage if you don't prevent anyone from entering into one.

Doesn't that sound fair? Or is it only fair if the only marriages that get to happen anywhere are those that meet your standard, in spite of consitutional laws to protect freedom of religion and in spite of the fact that a gay couple getting married doesn't really affect your life?

BTW, Monique, beautiful post.

Golob,

Actually, I read a scientific study that showed that people with very strong convictions are not open to rational thought and evidence. They surveyed rabid Republicans and Democrats, and brought up rational arguments and evidence for poor judgements made by each party (arguments that any reasoning, sane person would agree with) and instead what happened is the rabid Republicans would come up with nutcase bs arguments to counter the anti-Republican arguments, and the rabid Democrats would do the same for the anti-Democrat arguments. Damn, I should've saved that link. I tried to find again a few months ago, but wasn't able to find it.

BTW, the use of the word "rabid" is all me, and obviously not scientific. The study itself was well-done.

Judge Madsen Wrote:

"..because the legislature was entitled to believe that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples furthers.."

An interesting validation of an argument..."the legislature was entitled to believe"....What is the basis of this entitlment which validates this statement? That they are the elected representatives of the citizenry? Are they truly representing the desires of the citizenry?

Perhaps this is a brief stumble in the race, however the race is far from over.

---Jensen


Judge Madsen Wrote:

"..because the legislature was entitled to believe that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples furthers.."

An interesting validation of an argument..."the legislature was entitled to believe"....What is the basis of this entitlment which validates this statement? That they are the elected representatives of the citizenry? Are they truly representing the desires of the citizenry?

Perhaps this is a brief stumble in the race, however the race is far from over.

---Jensen


Surely, there's a liberal attorney named Johnson that can file?

i love how religious beliefs must be accounted for everytime the issue of gay marriage comes up...that is really helpful. so i wont even address any of those comments, as the previous argument is long and tedious, funny at times and done already.

i will however say this, if there are homosexual people "lusting" after little children in locker rooms, chances are there are LOTS more heterosexual people lusting after little children on the street, in the grocery store, the park, movies everywhere....just a thought. i cant wait for an angry comment pointing out what i said and calling it dumb or wrong! WHOOOO HOOOO!!!

what im wondering is, how to change a decision like this? im only 18, i am a lesbian, and i dont live in seattle, but im moving up soon, like four months soon, and i personally cannot wait to join the fight

Jean --
Excellent point. I remember that same study.

What gives me hope is that the moderates were swayed by rational scientific arguement. Perhaps one could hope to sway enough of the rational middle over to the truth...


Jim West vs. Lance Bass.

Is there a better lens through which to view old vs. new? True, Bass's 15 minutes were up years ago, but anyone who thinks gen-Y is going to put up with homophobic shit is nuttier than Mr. Peanut.

To those who gloat today: enjoy it; this is as good as it gets for you. To those who screech “won't somebody please think of the children!!!” a la Helen Lovejoy: your children think you're a homophobe. Your sons and daughters will roll their eyes at cocktail parties as they begrudgingly admit that they came from a homophobic family and trip all over themselves to explain that they're not like that at all! They'll use the term “gay lifestyle” the way young people use the term “colored boy/girl:” to mock the prejudices and small-mindedness of our parent's generation (BTW, kisses to all you pro-equality boomers and pre-boomers! Your sense of justice is inspiring to the younger generations.)

To those who think they can shelter their kids from the “homosexual agenda” through church, religious schools or missionary camp: shit happens. If my conservative, Dobson-supporting, Biblical-literalist Christian parents can end up with 3 sons who fully support marriage equality, then what chance have you got? Yeah, yeah, Romans 3:23... my response: don't shit on my cupcake and tell me it's frosting. What makes you think The Stranger crowd has no religious background or personal connection to American-style Christianity? As if we all magically appeared as fully-gown adults on Capitol Hill.

Thanks for the numbers...

I can't wait to see Barbara Madsen show up looking for Seattle endorsements now. Shameful. Eric and Lou, sure: you expect it from them. But Madsen's a smart, educated woman used to close reasoning. And yet she gets it so very, very wrong. These decisions will be as embarrassing as Dred Scott someday.

Gregoire: "I ask all Washingtonians to respect their fellow citizens."

It's a bit late considering a majoritarian tyranny was upheld as constitutional. My fellow citizens can go to hell.

Gregoire: "The Supreme Court has ruled and we must accept their decision whether we agree with it or not."

No.

It's ironic how the Western world is slowly secularizing, causing all sorts of fundies to say and do batshit insane things, while the one aspect of the Western world -- marriage -- is upheld to its ancient religious standards by the same people who are perfectly happy to engage in secularizing the rest of their world.

"Gay Marriage" is pretty much going to become a reality as a two fold process: "Gay civil union" + "gay partners who happen to be religious". The second part of the expression is actually superfluous, as far as basic partners' rights go. That said, civil unions should absolutely be encouraged because "traditional" marriage is just slowly being raped and killed the more trivialized it becomes.

There's no one stopping people who want to write religious vows for a civil union. However, that freedom to have a civil union amongst any pair of people should be there.

I used to think that attacking the marriage angle was the best way -- as there are certainly relgious gay people who feel they should be able to marry in the way that's traditionally practiced. However, politics and stubbornness are not going to give slack in the U.S. in the near future, so it seems the best approach is to allow civil unions with the freedom to attach religious traditions or not as needed.

There's a time to fight one angle as much possible; and then there's a time to realize that the older angle is not worth fighting if the other angle is just as good and shows more promise.

I'm upset by the decision today, and I'd be more upset had it not been for marriage already seeming like a mostly fucked tradition anyway.

I am so tired of people using the Bible to defend their fears and prejudices. If following all of the laws of the Bible is so important, than why isn't there a movement to abolish getting paid interest on investments or charging interest on loans, which is expressly prohibited in the Bible MANY more times than sex between men. Furthermore, the sex between men being prohibited in the Bible (only once is lesbian sex mentioned) is generally in reference to the sex cults that existed in Babylon and other regions in the Old Testament and the indentured sex servitude of young boys and sex cults in the New Testament.
Hell, let's just legislate that all Americans give up what they own and follow Christ. Why don't we do this? Because of the separation of church and state. The founding fathers, many of whom were NOT trinitarian Christians, but Deists, established that the Bible is not the only moral guide to be used for legislation.
Also, for everyone who thinks that gay parents mess up kids, there was a Newsweek magazine report (citing an American Psychological Association report) from April 10, 2000 that provided evidence that children raised in households with same-sex parents are actually more well adjusted than children raised by heterosexual parents -- particularly those raised in lesbian homes.
The bottom line -- as a Christian who strongly believes in the separation of church and state, if people want to commit their lives to one another, they should be given the right to do so.

An interesting polarity of opinions going on.

Civil Unions, at least since this morning, are starting to sound like something everyone can live with, yet no one will like.


The loosey left will have an almost "marriage". The tighty right gets to keep "marriage" in their religious beliefs. Everyone else will get on with their lives and will continue to fall in and out of love and the consequences it brings. Now that would be progress.

"yet no one will like" is a pretty key and cogent phrase here.

The way it really should be written: "yet no one will like *right away*"

Sounds almost like Gregoire agrees that the State should get out of the Marriage Business. Eh, Catalina? :-)

Elizabeth,

As to the Catholicism Issues, All of your question are answered not in the Old and New Testament., rather they are addressed in the Council of Trent and Cannon Law.

For many I believe that his really is not about addressing fears and prejudices. Let's face it, If you truly believe in the Sacrament of Mariage as opposed to a Secular Marriage, you should be offended at the proposal.

I really do think that changing the name od Secular Marriage to Civil Union is apporpriate.

Howdy, viscously arguing hordes!

A couple things.

1. I don't like this ruling. I'm gay and I'd like to marry someone that I love. It'd be nice to have all the rights too, but even more than that: I don't want anyone to be able to deny the legitimacy of my love, the legitimacy of my character.

2. One thing about this ruling that puzzles me is the reliance on the "well, neither straights nor gays can marry a person of the same sex, so this law is fair and doesn't unfairly target a certain group" argument. That's bullshit - the state legislature just acknowledged in law the basic rights of gays in employment and housing. That seems to me to establish them as a minority group the legislature has specifically sought to protect. For the court to ignore that existing legal distinction seems, well, silly.

3. About all this religion jabber: lay off. Of course, nobody's going to listen to that, because this argument comes down to a moral call on two axes. (1) Whether you think homosexuality is a legitimate expression of desire and love, and (2) whether you think your beliefs on its legitimacy ought to have weight in the law.

Here's what I think, and I don't want to address religion at all. I think that if homosexuality is an inborn and immutable quality, it should be legitimate alongside race and nationality. If it's a choice, then it's legitimate alongside religion and creed. This debate has been settled as far as discrimination, but it's going to take some time for marriage.

As far as all that religion stuff: the prohibitions against homosexuality in the bible are found in two places: the behavior codes in the Torah, written (or channeled, if you prefer) by Moses; and the Pauline Epistles, written by the apostle Paul. No other New Testament writer even mentions homosexuality; none of the Gospels report Christ discussing it.

Within inches of the anti-gay passages in the Torah, you'll find edicts against shellfish, sitting on a chair that a menstruating woman has (try enforcing that one!) and wearing garments made of more than one kind of fabric (poly-cotton, anyone?).

In the Pauline Epistles, you'll find a command that women should not speak in church, and that if they want to understand anything better, they should ask their husbands at home. In the same breath, Paul bans the teaching of men by women.

My point is this: all religious people choose what parts of their texts to take literally. If we look at the development of Judaism and Christianity, we'll find an ever enlarging, ever more progressive image of God. In the beginning, through to the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel by Samuel (who anointed Saul king) Jehovah was seen as a Jewish god. There were no attempts to convert their neighbors.

Then, when Christ arrives, and his gospel is carried across the Roman world by Paul, he and Peter have a serious quibble about whether gentiles are even allowed to become Christians. Of course, Paul wins, and Christianity blossoms.

And, those of you who hate Christianity because of all the bad things it's caused, like the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades and Jerry Fallwell? Think of this: without the Catholic Church guarding ancient manuscripts throughout the Dark Ages, we'd probably never have had the Renaissance, or the Enlightenment – the twin foundations of the progressive cause. Remember that Bertrand Russell divides philosophy into three periods: Classical, Catholic and Modern. Christians have given us a lot.

Now, of course, the Christians that make the most noise today are a bunch of ignorant louts. They don't understand why the separation of church and state is important, and they don't understand why their offers to "help homosexuals" sound not at all like love.

But, this recent rise in Fundamentalism is a passing problem. All sects liberalize. They always have. Pretty soon, blind faith isn't satisfying enough, and people start adding reason. It's human nature.

Erostratus wrote:

"2. One thing about this ruling that puzzles me is the reliance on the "well, neither straights nor gays can marry a person of the same sex, so this law is fair and doesn't unfairly target a certain group" argument."

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread.”

--Anatole France

Nice, Napoleon. That's just what I'm talking about.

Paul - I didn't mention Catholocism. Don't know enough about it to talk, but does the Council of Trent and Cannon Law epxlain why we are following what you see as Biblical edicts against homosexuality and not the edicts against interest?
Erostratus - I totally agree with you.
I'm still waiting for someone to give me a non-religious reason that gays shouldn't marry.

I personally like the Governor's distinction in her statement. We keep arguing about two very separate things (religious ritual versus civil contract) who unfortunately and archaicly share the same terminology.

I really think getting government out of the sacrament business is the perfect "free market" solution: There are currently some religions where gays can marry, if they choose. As we continue to progress and evolve, and more people find it's no big deal, you can bet you will see more religions - with an eye on membership and tithes - deciding its no big deal. But why should our government have to wait on the laggers?

If you're a religious homo (which I most certainly am not) lobby within your faith for the sacrament of marriage. All I want for my partner and myself is full LEGAL rights of "marriage" as recognized by the government. The same is true of our neighbors who are straight but refuse to marry as long as this discrimination exists.

Give us civil unions for everyone, and marriage for those who need the religious component, and the only people who will be unhappy will be the lingquists on both sides.

Elizabeth, et al...

No one will give you a solid non-religious reason for gays not to marry. You have to believe that gays are less valid than other people, that their love is less legitimate than others', in order to deny them the right to marry.

The only people that believe these things are religious, and the reason they believe them is that their ministers and leaders have emphasized passages in their holy texts that prohibit homosexual behavior.

You won't hear a sound non-religious argument against gay marriage because there isn't one.

Elizabeth,

I was referring to the Sacramnet of Marriage.

As to your point of charging interst, that argument is not really an argument. I don't want to come across as being confrontational (nor a holy roller), but your just plain wrong on the statement.

I would steer clear of anyone who just blindly quoted the bible if I were you. I can go into much deeper detail if you'd like an actual answer.

Catalina,

Well said

I'm a 38 year old married woman with a two year old. I love my husband but I hate my marriage. These religious nut cases have soiled the concept of marriage for me. Yuck.

How wouldn't civil unions be derailed by the same "queer folk make bad parents" arguement?

The acceptance that only heterosexual couples are capable of raising a child properly, as written into this decision seems to be a deal breaker for even civil unions...

really though, civil unions and everything aside. people shouldn't get 'special rights' for being paired off. there is no reason why a married, or unionized couple should pay less taxes than a single person. and everyone should have access to affordable healthcare, and be able to easiliy determine for themselves who gets their inheritance or can visit them in a hospital etc. however as long as pairs of people are going to get special advantages from the gov't then i want them too, and they need to be called the same thing. when i get married (and very soon) it will be a religious ceremony, as my religion (Reform Judaism) already permits same-sex marriage. but i'll be damned if i live in a place that will not treat it the same as everyone elses.

"Unionized Couples"! I love it! :-)

better than confederated couples

or um, scab couples

Paul, are you trying to tell me that the Bible doesn't expressly prohibit the charging or collecting of interest? Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, the Psalms and Ezekiel all have comments on not taking interest. In Ezekiel God commands death for those who commit the "abomination" of taking interest on a loan. Sound familiar? Maybe like the Levitical pronouncement against a man who lays with another man?
I only mention the collection of interest as an example because our economy is founded on something expressly prohibited in the Hebrew Bible , and yet we won't let gays marry.

Paul's charge to us to owe nothing but love in Romans 13:8 is a powerful reminder of God's distaste for all forms of debt that are not being paid in a timely manner (also Psalms 37:21). Usually we think of debt in terms of a monetary obligation. But in light of the context of this entire passage (Romans 13:1-10), Paul seems to have a broader view of debt in mind (Romans 13:7). Not only does he speak of taxes, tolls and tariffs that are imposed on us by our government, but also the respect, honor and praise we owe to those in high authority. All of us are debtors to God's grace. As He has shown us love, we need to extend love to those around us with whom we live and work - even those who tax and govern us.

Some people question the charging of any interest on loans, but several times in the Bible we see that a fair interest rate is expected to be received on borrowed money (Proverbs 28:8, Matthew 25:27). In ancient Israel the Law did prohibit charging interest on one category of loans - those made to the poor (Leviticus 25:35-38). This law had many social, financial and spiritual implications, but two are especially worth mentioning. First, the law genuinely helped the poor by not making their situation worse. It was bad enough to have fallen into poverty, and it could be humiliating to have to seek assistance. But if in addition to repaying the loan a poor person had to make crushing interest payments, the obligation would be more hurtful than helpful.

Secondly, the law taught an important spiritual lesson. For a lender to forego interest on a loan to a poor person would be an act of mercy. He would be losing the use of that money while it was loaned out. Yet that would be a tangible way of expressing gratitude to God for His mercy in not charging His people "interest" for the grace He has extended to them. Just as God had mercifully brought the Israelites out of Egypt when they were nothing but penniless slaves, and had given them a land of their own (Leviticus 25:38), so He expected them to do a similar kindness to their own poor citizens.

Christians are in a parallel situation. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus has paid our sin debt to God. Now, as we have opportunity, we can help others in need, particularly fellow believers, with loans that do not escalate their troubles. Jesus even gave a parable along these lines about two creditors and their attitude toward forgiveness (Matthew 18:23-35). He also instructs His followers: "Freely you have received, freely give" (Matthew 10:8)

Sims is wrong. This case is like Pace v. Alabama where the Supreme Court upheld anti-miscegenation laws.

195 comments! This must be a Slog record.

BTW, that was from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/money-debt.html

Not some rambling hloy roller post

Heh.

Teamsters local 877: longshoremen, airline mechanics and gay couples?

I like it.

keshmeshi-

Good point. I love the following passage from loving vs virginia that overturned pace vs alabama:

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law."

so, let's get down to brass tacks:

how many lawyers posting on this thread are actually going to go file to run against the majority ruling justices?

or?

oh, and if you want to take part in the 43rd endorsements, you have to be a paid member - now. go to the www.43rddems.org website. or if another district go to www.kcdems.org and follow the links.

note the KC Dems also endorse soon.

If you think Sanders was hilarious (see above), you should have heard that other weirdo on KOMO (K, not H) at 10:00, the one who was mewling about misselectation or dissenation. (Think miscegnation was the word he was looking for, but whatever.)

Anyway. Anyone that incoherent & inarticulate must be a plant from the Bush Administration, or must be a Bush parodist. Either way, you should find out who it is & get him on your Slog. He's a blithering blathering laff riot, just like the president. Even funnier than FNARF.

We need a few good laughs, because four (count 'em) old women and old men in long black dresses was frighteningly close. Democracy was one vote away from being cornholed again.

I think this is a really good decision for our *system* of government; the question of what a state-sanctioned marriage looks like is a legislative decision, not a judicial one and the controlling opinion simply recognizes that.

of course, being straight, it's a lot easier for me to take this perspective.

that said, I think today's decision will actually be a net good for the gay rights movement in the long run...

gains made in legislatures are more likely to reflect social consensus which brings two benefits: stability and the ability of society to move on.

a narrow court decision enshrining a new 'right' however typically just ensures that the underlying issue never goes away and the result is always in danger of being reversed.
(see America, 1973-present with re: Roe v. Wade...contrast with Tim Eyman failing miserably in his attempt to even qualify R-65 for the ballot this year.)

if today's decision had come down 5-4 for gay marriage you could conceivably have seen a constitutional amendment banning it by 2009. at the very least you'd have 3 or 4 new justices whose chief qualifications would be they're really, really against gay marriage. (just like Dan's chief qualification for challenging Alexander would be that he's really, really pro gay marriage.) and that would be bad for our entire state on many levels.

my bottom line on this is it was the right decision, with the right rationale and it's now up to the legislature to do the right thing.

Probably already said at this point, but here's what needs to happen: Civil Unions for both hetero and homosexual partners, and Marriage as a legal institution removed. Religion needs to be taken out of our laws, and be put back into the hands of the people and thier personal beliefs. You should be able to give legal rights to your money, children, etc to anyone you choose. If you want to pledge your eternal love for someone, do that through your religious ceremony of choice.

The distinction is between civil marriage and religious marriage. When Ed Murray and others write the marriage equality legislation, they should make this distinction explicit. Explicitly declare that religious marriage is a matter for religious organizations, and say that civil marriage laws can not prohibit or compel religious decisions about religious marriage. Then explicitly say that civil marriage is the exclusive domain of the state. Then, after having assured sensible religious people that they can continue to view religious marriage however they want, declare that civil marriage is for any two people regardless of gender.

Marriage is too important a word to surrender to the churches, and creating a novel category of civil unions just creates a complicated separate-but-equal morass that will tie up the courts. By explicitly separating civil and religious marriage, all arguments on religious grounds are cut short while protecting everybody's rights.

I'd just like to take a moment and mine my optimistic nature for this nugget:

Four justices on the Washington State Supreme Court voted to allow gay people to marry. That's pretty damn cool.

I don't know what the odds on this would've been twenty years ago...not good. Forty years ago, incalculable.

And twenty years from now, gay marriage will seem as innocuous as interracial marriage does now.

The forces of intolerance have been losing this war for 40 years, and this decision doesn't come close to turning the tide.

Just the opposite--it's another example of how far the civil rights movement has come. Hooray, four justices!

Well, that does it for me. I am taking my education and considerable skills and moving to the homeland of my sainted mother. Canada. You can remain here to fight the good fight if you wish, but I see a land of opportunity and acceptance for myself and my spouse. Life is too short to continue to live among bigots. Besides, America is so over.

Trixie: I'll see you accross the border.

The one thing that I don't hear anyone mentioning is the contractual aspect of marriage. In the eyes of the law a marriage is a contract: an agreement between 2 people to pool their resources in search of a common goal. To deny one adult the ability to enter into a contract with another adult based on their sexual orientation is discrimination pure and simple. This is also the reason why idiots like Rush and their argument that gay marriage will open the floodgates to marriage between people and animals are so flawed. Animals cannot legally sign a contract. I know it has been said 100's of times before but did straight marriage really need defending? Was the only thing that kept people breeding the fact that it was legally sanctioned? I have a feeling that if gay marriage is legalized, the # of straight marriages will not be effected at all. The human race will be safe. This decision has me so pissed!! I wish to God I could live in a country that didn't have it's head so far up Jesus' ass. On the plus side it is quite good to read the thoughts of like minded folks. It reminds me that there are other rational people out there, even if we are swimming in a toilet filled with crucifix shaped turds.

Give Gregoire some credit, Eli: what her statement says is that, as far as the State or the United States is concerned, even *hetereosexual* marriage should be considered a "civil union" merely - to consider it otherwise would be to condone a particular religious view of marriage.

Given that, there is no rational basis on which to deny gays the right to marry - no matter how religious you are personally.

You can talk up procreation and raising children all you like in your church as the basis for marriage, and celebrate it as such there.

Outside there church, it's just a civil contract, into which any consenting couple of legal age should be able to enter, and have it respected by the state.

I think that's quite a sophisticated and potentially productive position for Gregoire to express.

Lets hope gay marriage opponents start listening to it.

Well, I jut shipped Owens $500.00. Turns out Chambers has no opponent, and as of this morning, the expected challeger to Alexander hadn't filed. If he does, Alexander's gonna find himself on his own.

Being a Canadian living in Seattle, I feel pretty ashamed that the town I call home legalizes discrimation and promotes homophobia (via the state, that is).

Mah murrige ta mah wahf is a SEKKRID THANG! Iffn yawl Ho Mo Sekkshuls wuz ta murrah ya own kine, mah murrige ta mah wahf'd be maid a JOKE! Th' Bahbul say so rot thur in blak n whot! I ain' shur zackly whur, but ah NO its in thur summwhurz. Th' gud revv Pat Robbersin toad me so on muh tayvay, so ah NOZ its th' troof! Yawls is dun sendin us AWL strate to Hayullfahr!! SHAYMM on yawls fer trine ta dokkernayte mah chilruns wit yer buggerin ways! Ah PRISE TH LARD fer thisyeer coert rewlin! Now mebbe thay be free ta go up inta tha wellajusterd tellijint gawdferrin yewmin bayns jus lak ahm lernin 'em to.

"“Only people of the opposite sex may get married.” So [gays and lesbians] have as much of a right to get married as anyone."

That is such a technicality. Let his time come, he'll be de-cloaked.

"“Only people of the opposite sex may get married.” So [gays and lesbians] have as much of a right to get married as anyone."

That is such a technicality. Let his time come, he'll be de-cloaked.

It's an amazing idiocy we are seeing with this decision. Who could have guessed that they would come up with these absolutley ridiculous justifications for their bigotry?
Oh, shit I'll bet fnarf did.

The procreation argument, like most of the others, is bankrupt - for one simple reason; there are ENOUGH humans on the Earth already; millions starve, noone lifts a finger; resources strained.

No that's not it. [Skipping some yadda yadda]

Civil Unions may have to do for a generation. Most *practical* concerns are addressed by it, no? Joint property, visitation rights, inheritance, etc.? And CUs will provide the DATABASE to demonstrate that other "concerns" (prejudices) are groundless.

To those whose hearts are down ... you've come a long way, babies ... keep on keeping on.

Way to put your money where your mouth is Napoleon XIII! Owens needs our help. She will be at a serious $$ disadvantage to her opponent, conservative R Senator Steve Johnson who is backed by Faith & Freedom Network, among others. These guys are waging an insidious battle to buy up judicial seats. Pay attention!

I am griefstruck at the ever consistant lack of conscious in the world we live in. I wish we all could have civil unions replacing marriage, rights were equally tendered, single or married, and any adult love honored legally. The state supporting childbearing as in our interest?? Even as a mother of 2 subadults, I think childbearing should be reconsidered, the globe won't sustain that "right". I have already told my sons I'd prefer they not blindly reproduce. I fear any of humankind living through the coming planetary crisis, yes, my own too.I have no faith in any religion that does not act in compassion, nor is the bible my code of conscience, so I'm not jumping into that morass. As Borges said, in one of my favorite poems, speaking as the voice of Jesus, These are the words of god written by the hand of man , thus will never be my word" amen.

When you folks are finished buying votes on either side we'll be waiting for you. I'll keep a light on.

Susan Owens cast her vote long before I made my contribution, Fishnet.

I began the immigration process long before today's decision, Napoleon, so I guess we're even. I'll still keep a light on for you in Canada.

Although the recent decision does not affect me (I live in Norway), it does affect many people whom I love dearly, and so I wanted to pass on a thought that I had last night while fuming over the WA. ruling.

Namely:
Since corporations are granted the same rights as individuals, can't two people form a corproation that would simulate the rights and responsability of marriage? In fact, would it be possible to form Homo, Inc. and sell franchises? This would at least grant some of the survivorship and property rights to individuals that they are stupidly being denied in most of the republic at present in addition to providing outlets for non-profit promotion of 'THE HOMOSEXUAL AGENDA'.

I know it is cynical and that this fight is all about being high-minded and not destroying that which one cannot have, but if people were encouraged to incorporate under very specific, well defined articles, I would guess that even a bunch of non-religious straight folks would choose to do it as a statement of solidarity with the GLBT community. It would be a gas to figure out how to reap some tax advantages for these corporations as well...

Alan, no. It doesn't work that way.

A couple can cover some of the holes in the laws by contracts between themselves - mutual wills and the like. The real problems are that no one else in society has a legal obligation to recognize their union, and many places in society have a legal obligation or policy not to recognize it because they are "not related." For example, if a gay man is hospitalized and is too ill to give permission, the hospital can deny visitation to his partner because they are not married. That sort of thing. No corporation or contract between the two partners could solve all these problems. The only thing that can solve _all_ the problems is marriage.

Civil union has some strong benefits. It can solve all the _state law_ issues, at least. It can give queer couples all the legal rights of married couples within the state, for all purposes. No hospital could deny visitation, there would be no issue about how state probate law applied, custody issues would be clarified for children born into the partnership. there would be lots of benefits to civil unions.

The civil unions still have problems, obviously, on a national level. They would not give you the benefits of "marriage" in the federal tax codes or in other federal laws, such as those relating to pensions, so each couple would need contracts to work around these problems as best as possible. And of course, the minute the couple steps outside Washington into a state without a civil union or marriage law for gays, their union is probably invalid, and they are back to square one when it comes to access to hospitals and so on . . . so they STILL need to have as much contractual backup as possible to protect each other.

It's a hell of a mess.

All the people who whine about moving to Canada are not only quitters, they are avoiding the inevitable.

To paraphrase the Shrub (but this time in the right context) we have to fight them in the US so we don't have to fight them in Canada. :-) After all, there's some conservative shennanigans going on up there (as you would have noticed if you hadn't been so busy picking out china patterns) and the US neocons are trying to spread their sunshine on both sides of the border - look at the election fraud in Mexico. Hopefully they will have more sucess and guts than we do here.

Marriage was originally a legal contract, giving those so bound the legal right to each other's property, money, etc. All of this morality/judgement/superiority bullshit is a thin coverup for people who desperately want to be right and sit in judgement of others, not people who are dedicated to real equality. What are they so afraid of? That giving everyone equal rights (read the constitution lately?) is going to somehow threaten their own? Ever heard of privilege? Get rid of marriage and give everyone the right to have a legally protected civil union OF THEIR OWN DEFINITION. Maybe our country would be a better place if we could learn to disagree about moral and religious issues without trying to put it into law.

Well, actually Bran marriage wasn't originally a just legal contract, at least not in the Western European countries from which our traditions derive.

Orginally there, all marriage was Catholic, a religious sacrament like Gregoire's - which also gave you certain legal rights.

It became a "civil union" merely in Protestant countries where the sacramental idea became suspect as so much Catholic mumbo jumbo, with the Dutch I think being the innovators.

With the Protestant Reformation in England, marriage became officially a civil contract, though high church sacramentalism continue to be tolerated.

In the USA, of course, our founding principle is to separate church and state, so marriage here has always been a civil union. You can attach any religious significance you want to it - the State isn't interested.

So how our 5 justices on our State Supreme Court can come off saying DOMA is constitutional, when it basically uses the Biblical injunction "go forth and multiply" as its basis, is beyond me.

Or maybe the plaintiffs didn't challenge DOMA on the right reason.

If they didn't try it this time, next time they should challenge is for unconstitionally mixing church and state.

Or maybe as a heterosexually married person who entered on this contract never intending to have children, maybe my wife and I or others like us should challenge it on the basis that its rationale could one day deny people like us the right to marry.

BTW, sorry for the typos in the last post; you get the idea I hope.

Hey thanks, prof! I was referring specifically to the US, but I didn't mention that in my post. More history is always welcome.
The idea that we're protecting marriage for the sake of generating children is ridiculous - we don't moderate whether or not someone can get married by their ability to reproduce. We will continue to generate children, no doubt of that - people enjoy having sex, right? So, no worries. And I don't enjoy being viewed as breeding stock.

I can give every single one of you faggots a non-religious reason why homosexuality should not be allowed in this great nation of ours: AIDS. Both San Francisco and Seattle have HIV epidemics that are concentrated in the gay populations of the city: in fact 1 in 5 gay males in Seattle is infected with HIV. In San Francisco, the number is 1 in 4.

I agree that the bible is not a justifyable reason to deny faggots the right to marry, and I am more than familiar with Joan Roughgarten's work on homosexuality in nature, but these reasons are irrelevent.

There is no cure for AIDS. The HIV epidemic in the USA started from about 40 gay males. These 40 faggots are resonsible for almost a million deaths.

Stop homosexuality before it kills you.

Bring back Biblically correct marriage. The Holy Bible gives me the right to multiple wives and concubines (Gen. 32:22), even if I have to go out and buy them (Ex. 21:7-8) or acquire them by raping them (Deut. 22:28-29).

HEALTH WARRIOR: If HIV is the reason for a discriminatory law, why not make lesbianism compulsory?

See now, if I'd been on the Supreme Court, I would have noticed that plain, old, “traditional”, hetero-monogamous marriage violates the “privileges and immunities” clause.

Health Warrior, you are a retard. While retards have every right to function in society, this is a conversation for non-retards. Go put your helmet on and drool out in the yard.

Health Warrior:
So since black males in Brevard county FL between the ages of 18-25 have an abnormally high AIDS rate, we should ban black marriage too, just in case?

This is for Mary, Truth and any others that think law should mirror the Bible. I am an atheist; I was raised by atheists, and I do not need a three-thousand year old work of fiction to tell me how to behave. [If I did, I would be the property of my father until he sold me into marriage, I could treat my non-Jew slaves in any manner I chose, I couldn't wear poly-blend fabrics, and I would be completely justified in stoning my neighbor for not showing up for church. All of these things may sound perfectly moral and righteous to you, but I think they're abhorrant. How many of these fun laws do you obey?] However, I am in a loving relationship, pay taxes in February to make things easier on the IRS, and buy food for the homeless guys near my train station. I was raised to not judge people on their beliefs and values because we all see the world differently. I was told that if someone isn't harming anyone else and is a rational adult, that he should be free to follow his heart. But, to you, because I don't have the threat of hell to make me behave, I am an immoral heathen. Thank goodness you belong to one of those "tolerant" religions.
There is little enough love in this world. Why do you celebrate when others are denied their share?

Jean,

I'm sure you've heard all the arguments on this issue. But the fact remains, we have Bibles for a reason. Without the words of God and Jesus we would be lost and left to define morality for ourselves which you can see is a total disaster. Who is left to define morality if we remove God from the equation? You, me, politicians? Come on! And how can you ask someone to remove their religious beliefs from their reasoning? If you are a true believer, you can't separate the two.

Posted by: Truth | July 26, 2006 08:57 AM

You can't use the Bible as your moral platform when this country and its' law makers do not follow the Bible. The Bible does not advocate for divorce, yet straight people have a more than 50% divorce rate and many straight people have been married more than once...and divorce is devasting to the children involved. So, unless you are ready to uphold a ban on Divorce...your argument is not working....really.

I confess I dated Health Warriors wife...sorry there fellow...you were just not doing it for her...it happens..really.

i sincerely believed that washington was a place that accepted diversity... after living in seattle for 5 years i must say i am fairly disappointed

Hey faggots, the fact remains that in the United States, we make laws based on the intent of the laws, not on the exceptions that may occur.

Abortion is legal because, despite the fact that some women may use it as a form of birth control, there needs to be an escape for women in a variety of different situations where they cannot afford (literally or abstractly) to have the baby.

To the people on this board who have been in long term, successful homosexual relationships -- good for you. Seriously. But the fact is that you remain the exception. The vast majority of gays do not partake in long term relatinoships that are succesful, spread diseases like HIV, use nasty drugs like meth (the drug use rate in homosexuals is over 3x what it is in heterosexuals), and cannot raise a child effectively.

Until the homosexual population can demonstrate that it as a majority can step up to the plate and become functioning members of society, we should be hesitant to grant them the right to marraige.

HW

The only thing that is more depressing than the fact that the majority justices clearly were seeking an answer that supports their right-wing anti-gay agenda, is the absolutely circular logic and adaptations of the legal tests they used to arrive at their end result! Anyone with legal training will understand that the court duped the public because most people are not legally trained. Talk about activists judges!!! Just take a look at the Canadian marriage cases to see what the only reasonable answer to the the gay marriage question is, in ANY free and democratic country with constitutional protections based on basic human rights: http://www.samesexmarriage.ca/legal

Unfortnately the U.S. is dominated by right-wing religious zealots, while professing to be a beacon of freedom and democracy and human rights. It's a pathetic lie.

Health Warrior, I told you - put your helmet on and go back out in the yard. And wipe your ass - it's a mess. The short bus will come by soon to take you to your daycare program.

(I don't know what to do with him - he gets worse every day....)

I always find the retarded's thought process to be fascinating. Take Health warrior: Fags are promiscuous, so we can't grant them a relationship status that is supposed to promote monogamy.

What an embarrassment, could Mary be less professional? It took that long to produce some pointless, karl rove bs? It proves the point there really is no rational argument against gay marriage if that's all they can come up with, just religious opinion in the form of political discrimination--- it will not hold up over time.
Maybe Mary knew she would get voted out anyway this Fall because of stuff like this http://www.courtcorruption.com/JusticeFairhurst.html
or maybe she's looking for an appointment from Bush.

the majority of what is being said on this forum, by those opposed to gay marriage, is completely false and is written by people who probably don't even know one gay person. Let me explain to you what the reality is. I am not in any way suffering at the hands of those people who chose to discriminate against me. In fact, I am a highly successful salesperson who makes a great deal of money and profits from the misery of stupid idiots like the guy who made that comment about meth use amongst gays and that woman who keeps bringing up the bible. I sell insurance, credit, and loans to uneducated idiots like yourself who cannot keep their finaces straight. How can be so ruthless some people ask me? The reason is that you homophobes have created a hated minority who you animalize. What you fail to realize though is that those that you discriminate and animalize will do the same back to you. You treat gays like we are some strange creature that you will never have to deal with. Well I have news for you, you do have to deal with us. When you are broke or have some stupid problem there is a chance that you might get me on the phone and I will sell you a loan or a credit card to further put you in debt. While you struggle in a bad economy, I take trips to Europe and live in an expensive house and drive an expensive car. While you debate whether I should get my rights, I simply take them. With all of the money that I make, do I contribute anything to you're charities? No I do not. Why am I writing this. Because I want gays to know that success is the greatest revenge that you can get against those that hate you. Until we are given our right, I say that gays should not contribute one penny of our money to any straight charities or help any of them. Let me end by telling you all this, learn to spell, stop scapegoating gays for your own shortcomings, and realize that I will live in your best neighborhoods, milk all of you for all that you are worth, and never give anything back to any of you. So how does that make you feel. If you treat me like an animal I will do the same to you, except I can spell and am in a position of financial authority which most of you are not. So let me leave you with something you can understand, "kiss mah rich gay azz"

Freedom is not merely the opportunity to do as one pleases; neither is it merely the opportunity to choose between set alternatives. Freedom is, first of all, the chance to formulate the available choices, to argue over them -- and then, the opportunity to choose.

A few weeks back we launched fireworks and cheered that we had freedom, greater then that given to us as part of one of the countries on this list.

Denmark, 1989.
Norway, 1996.
Sweden, 1996.
Iceland, 1996.
France, 1999.
The Netherlands, 2001.
Germany, 2001.
Finland, 2002.
Belgium, 2003.
Luxembourg, 2004.
New Zealand, 2004.
Britain, 2005.
Canada, 2005.
Spain, 2005.
South Africa 2005.

From the date listed beside each and every one of these countries the opportunity to choose was recognized, nationally. My love and Your Love, and Anyone else Gay or Straights love were respected as equal.

We fought for freedom against one of these countries.
Our people denied doing business over segregation in one of these countries.
We went to war over genocide against one of these countries.

and... if you were to ask any "Patriotic American" he would tell you we are superior to any one of these countries...

How sad that he would be deluded.

How sad that a nation who name once rang synonymous with apartheid and racial inequality has in so short a span as 10 years become socially our better.

And how sad that it surprises me not at all.

Sachi: Thanks for your comments. I guess that because I was raised by a republican I am always looking for some kind of end-run around the rules...but I am still not convinced that there is not some loop-hole, semantic exploit, legal shenanigan that can be used to chip away at the exclusivity of the institution of marriage (I'm not actually even the world's most enthusiastic marriage supporter, it was something that I did to be able to reside in the same country with the person whom I love.) Many couples here (Norway) don't even bother any more because it just doesn't mean that much in our social welfare state. Want a commitment ceremony? Hey, knock yourself out, but leave other people's rights and obligations alone for Odin's sake.

Health Warrior: you drool.

Thumpers of religios books: please wait quietly for your savior. I am really sorry that your god is so weak that you have to constantly run around making sure that people do not do things that he might not like. Seems to me that even a mildly weak god would be able to keep people from sucking dick if that was a big deal to it[god]...so what's up with that?

Everyone else: keep the faith,our Agenda is unstoppable.

I personally applaud the decision. In these socially liberal times, it is good to see that five judges have the wisdom and foresight to rule in favor of traditional marriage. I hold no animosity towards gays, and I realize that many of them are good people. But morality does matter, and should matter forevermore.

By the way, I am not some "far-right" nut. I strongly dislike George W. Bush, but not because he is a social conservative (he is NOT socially conservative, he just pretends to be in order to pick up rural votes for the GOP), but because he is a corporate puppet.

Overall, my politics are quite centrist.

I just think that there are too many liberals who subscribe to the "if it feels good, do it" mentality. Sex, alcohol, gambling, and drugs are "cause celebres" for some libs, and that is a problem.

With freedom comes responsibility. Too many liberals do not seem to understand that.

By the way, I have no problem with civil unions for gays. I just believe that marriage is a sacred institution meant for heterosexual couples.

Dan Quayle, in my opinion, was right when he stated, back in 1992, that children grow up best with a mother and a father.

The mother provides the nurturing.

The father provides the discipline.

In these liberal times, anything that is deviant or unusual gets glorified. This has especially been the case since about 1990 or so.

I guess the whole thing boils down to one thing. The defintion of morality for anti gay marriage conservatives includes bigotry and discrimination. I have never heard one valid argument against gay marriage. They should be honest and just say "we don't want gay marriage..because we think gay people are inferior"
All of their procreation, bible or "saving the children" arguments are rubbish. None hold water.

I can't believe they're getting away with denying people specific rights enjoyed by others - this is supposed to be a free country! We suffer under a tyranny of the majority. What did Ibsen say? "The minority is always right." When will the sheep learn?

I'm in the majority here but my heart is with the queers. Everyone should be free to marry. I'm sorry.

Now, go get 'em, Stranger. Rip those blackrobes a new one.

I probably missed something...but if their big thing is "procreation", what about infertile people who marry-knowing they're infertile? Or what about the millions of bio and adopted children of gays and lesbians? Do those children mean nothing? Are they holograms? Besides, with over 6 billion humans, should we really be encouraging people to multiply?

Justice James Johnson, who also sided with the majority ruling, said the 5-4 ruling shows just how important one vote is.

“If I had been defeated, this would have gone the other way,” said Johnson, who was elected in 2004. “And we would have joined the Looney Toon pair with Massachusetts as the only other state in the country with such a judicial decision.

“What I’m saying is, it shows how important judicial elections are,” he said. “People had better pay attention.”

It is my belief that as a half asian-half white lesbian that many of the arguments once used against interracial marriage have the same cognitive effect as anti-gay misinformation.
I call for an organized halt to paying taxes to the federal government and state that denies us equal rights. "no taxation without representation" & "no tyrrany of the majority"
Anyone wanting to maintain discrinatory views had best read the following:
Pediatrics 2006;118;349-364
"Discriminatory practices are based on the assumption
that lesbian mothers and gay fathers are different from
heterosexual parents in ways that are detrimental to
their children’s well-being. However, few differences
have been found in research conducted over the last 3
decades comparing lesbian and heterosexual mothers’
self-esteem, psychological adjustment, and attitudes toward
child rearing.25,26 Lesbian mothers fall within the
range of normal psychological functioning on interviews
and psychological assessments, and report scores on
standardized measures of self-esteem, anxiety, depression,
and parenting stress indistinguishable from those
reported by heterosexual mothers.27
Lesbian mothers strongly endorse child-centered attitudes
and commitment to their maternal roles28 and
have been shown to be more concerned with providing
male role models for their children than are divorced
heterosexual mothers.29 Lesbian and heterosexual mothers
describe themselves similarly in marital and maternal
interests, current lifestyles, and child-rearing practices.29
They report similar role conflicts, social support networks,
and coping strategies.30,31
Empirical evidence reveals that gay fathers have substantial
evidence of nurturance and investment in their
paternal role and no differences from heterosexual fathers
in providing appropriate recreation or encouraging
autonomy. Gay fathers have been described to adhere to
strict disciplinary guidelines, to place an emphasis on
guidance and the development of cognitive skills, and to
be involved in their children’s activities.32,33 Overall,
there are more similarities than differences in the parenting
styles and attitudes of gay and nongay fathers.34,35

Backrdzass!
Wow! Do you really talk like that, or was that your Strom Thurmond comin' out!
Best post of the day!

Hey, P.O.
You wrote, "With freedom comes responsibility." How about with freedom comes.... freedom.
If I am a sane adult, who the fuck are you (or our oligarchy government) to tell me not to? You may not approve of drinking, gambling, guy/guy buttsex or any of the other myraid of fun, though not always harmless, things there are to do? If I am a responsible drinker (never drive, not at work/while watching the kids), gambler (play within my means), or buttsex enthusiast (do you need an elaboration here) - why shouldn't I be able to do those things?
Vices they may be, but they're my decision as a person living in a FREE society.

Hey, Sujit Sukumaran - I support what you're saying man, but don't tell people to learn how to spell and then misuse 'your' (a concept hammered into third graders) "With all of the money that I make, do I contribute anything to you're charities?"

Firstly, I'd like to thank all of the advocates who have posted. I also like to think that the posters who claim to have good intentions but are unintentionally making hurtful comments really do have good intentions. It was once said that good people tend to do good, evil people tend to do evil, but for a good person to do evil; that takes religion. I don't even think this is so. Religion gan be an excellent guide when someone doesn't know what to do in a difficult situation. What we are dealing with here is people. People who are leading people away from the good intent of thier religion. Let the people wander the intellectual desert for 40 years, and they will die off. The Republicans have thier 100 year plan. I am willing to be patient.

If unhealthful lifestyle choices are the determining factor, let's deny smokers the right to marry. If incidence of HIV is the determining factor, the District of Columbia should ban marriage altogether.

HealthWarrior:

As a gay physician, one who cares for many people no matter what their beliefs, I find your logic specious and your attitude reprehensible.

I shouldn't have the same rights as other people because "the vast majority of gays do not partake in long term relatinoships that are succesful." And how exactly did you get that data? Did you poll the bars (where mostly single people hang out)? What about the divorce rate (which is widely known and statistically proven)? What does that say for the stability of straight marriages?

By your logic, Lesbians should rule the US as they should have all the rights, and we should deny everyone else equal treatment (lesbians are MUCH less likely to spread diseases - straight and gay alike spread STDs).

Also, your comment about "until the homosexual population can demonstrate that it as a majority can step up to the plate and become functioning members of society" is pure and utter nonsense. Gay people tend to be more productive and very high functioning members of society.

I actually don't even know why I'm responding to you. (I'm not even bothering with the other hate mongers on this site). I'm not going to change your opinion and you certainly won't change mine.

I really do wish that you wouldn't use the monicker of "HealthWarrior" though. It slanders the healthcare profession.

This ruling makes me feel embarassed and ashamed to be engaged to marry a member of the opposite sex. If gay marriages were legally recognised by this state, I could heterosexually marry in good conscience.

The state's refusal to legally recognise same-sex marriage hurts opposite-sex marriage by making opposite-sex marriage feel like drinking out of a "whites only" drinking fountain. I feel really gross right now.

This was informative, to say the least. I Stopped reading when the bitchy queens started saying things like "suck my dick" and "can we 69". It's a political topic, folks; not a pornographic one. Keep it intelligent, please.

I lived in the gay community for many years during the late eighties, and found it to be the saddest point in my life. It was only after I quit the drugs and went back to church that I discovered what a deplorable lifestyle I was living. I am now a happily married father of two, and I wholly support this decision.

Thank you, Scott. You bring up the interesting point that only homosexuals do drugs and heterosexual people are unable to develop drug habits.

Thank you, Scott. You bring up the interesting point that only homosexuals do drugs and heterosexual people are unable to develop drug habits.

I lived in the straight community for many years. Those were some of the unhappiest years of my life. Alcoholism, overwhelming depression. I ignored my kids and my wife. It wasn't until I came out and met my partner that I became truly happy and finally realized how horrible it was for my wife and kids. My partner and I have been together for 14 years now and they've been the happiest years of my life. My kids think of him as family and he's my wife's best friend. Luckily, he's Canadian, so we have already been married up there. Someday it will happen in the US too.

Treat others how you want to be treated. It's the Golden rule, people. To all you anti-gay people, why do you care? It's not like you know or will go anywhere near a gay person. It'll never affect you. Your own hatred fuels your false sense of "I know". Don't worry, WA. Seperate but Equal went of style once, and it will again. Persevere!

Scott, I don't believe that you've got an accurate picture of the full demographic this legislation affects.

One of my favorite teachers in college is a lesbian who holds a doctorate in law and a masters degree in psychology. She and her legally unrecognised wife have raised well-adjusted children, who have gone on to raise well-adjusted children of their own. And one of my closest and most valued friends is a completely sober gay male virgin who has told me many times (and I've rolled my eyes a little, having made no such pact in my life) that he plans to retain his virginity until he's in a solid relationship with a man he plans to spend the rest of his life with.

Seriously, there are boring, normal gay people who contribute to professional society as much as anyone else does. And I've known some who are VERY good parents, who raised normal, well-educated, culturally mainstream children.

There is very little distinction to me between slumming with straight drug addicts and slumming with gay drug addicts. You spent the 1980s slumming with drug abusers whose lifestyle you now find morally distasteful. I am certain that, had you spent that time slumming with straight drug abusers, you'd be just as put off by them in reterospect.

I'm almost afraid to post this because I'm afraid I'm going to make everyone unhappy. Eric, Mary, Truth - JESUS never said ANYTHING about homosexuality. There are references to homosexuality being an "abomination" in Leviticus - a couple of paragraphs below or above (sorry, can't remember) a sentence that declares that eating shellfish is an "abomination". Paul spoke against it in a couple of letters to church leaders. BUT Jesus was silent on homosexuality - AND abortion too for that matter. Jesus said to love God, visit those in prison, take care of the sick and the poor, turn the other cheek to thine enemy but not one word about homosexuality. He EVEN gave adultery a pass (let he who is without sin and all) and adultery was one of the big 10. So please use someone besides Jesus to try and dignify your point - He's made it perfectly clear what you should do: love God, love your neighbor as yourself. I also never remember Jesus mentioning anything at all about forcing (i.e. Legislating) people to accept Christian viewpoints. He DID entreat Christians to not hide their light under a bushel (so that all around them might see the effect of the love of God and ask them what it was that ion their lives that made them so happy and at peace with the world) and spread the word of God's love and bring others into the fold.
I don't see y'all spreading that love around and I'm pretty sure that you haven't brought anyone into God's fold - at least in this forum. Having said that, I'm fixing to make the other side mad at me too. Dan - asking who's the woman when you and your partner 69 is just trifling. I understand your feelings, but it's trifling just the same (as are those of you who can't construct a well-thought out sentence and just resort to profane name-calling). Doesn't really deal with the issue or help solve the problem does it?
So here's my 2 cents. All you gay folks who want to insist on calling for "marriage" screwed your selves - and you didn't give yourselves any K-Y jelly or a kiss! If you had framed it as "civil union", you'd be a lot further down the road to legalized access to each others 401k's, insurance benefits, medical decision-making, etc. But NO, you had to make it "GAY MARRIAGE". Here's the deal: most Americans polled SUPPORT the idea of allowing "significant others" to have that access to those rights - even if the signficant other is the same sex. Most Americans polled DO NOT support GAY MARRIAGE. For lots of reasons including the ones espoused by Eric, Mary and Truth - and they are entitled to their opinion. And they get to register and vote their opinion. But their opinions against gay marriage are not the only ones. Former Professor is dead on - marriage was a Church construct. American law doesn't recognize a "marriage" without a MARRIAGE LICENSE issued by the STATE GOVERNMENT. But the license they are issuing doesn't have ANYTHING to do with a Church marriage and the marriage sacrament the Church performs doesn't mean anything at all to the State!
The state is concerned with the LEGAL responsibilities of two people involved in a CONTRACT that the state calls "marriage".
For the record: I'm a straight Southern girl whose best friend the is the gay son of a fundamentalist Southern Baptist preacher and I don't support gay marriage -I don't support any state definition of marriage because marriage is a Church thing! And I don't support forcing a Church to perform a religious sacrament through legislation any more than I support the state having to perform legislation because of a Church sacrament! I DO support civil unions so long as they are between consenting ADULTS (gay, straight, bi or asexual). And so Dan and all you other gays out there who are in a committed relationship, y'all need to ask yourselves a question: do you want the legal rights to each other's 401k's, insurance, inheiritance rights, etc OR do you want to wear a white dress and walk down the aisle and say you're "married". Because if you don't get your happy-camper butts in gear, your going to loose not just those civil union rights BUT you're going to loose the right to adopt! (And you lesbians MAY end up with your birth-child taken away if you have any misguided family members). There are way too many children out there who need to be raised by good, loving, responsible adults! And those kids don't care who's the woman when you 69 because they aren't in the room while you're having sex!

One More, you are right to an extent. I do not believe in prying into people's lives or dictating to them what to do. What two consenting adults do in the privacy in their homes is their business, not mine.

However, liberals have the tendency to want to "call the tune", yet not "pay the piper". Many libs call for more freedom, yet want their lifestyles subsidized. If someone wants to smoke, for example, it's entirely reasonable that they pay more for health insurance.

That is but one example.

I've already written a lot about this elsewhere, and I really must stop it, lest I get obsessive and seriously depressed. But I really hoped that DOMA would be defeated in this state, and that LGBT folks could marry the person they love most, just as heteros like myself can. One of the 19 plaintiff couples in the lawsuit are both personal friends of mine, so I feel as if I have been personally affected by this, even if I'm not a lesbian trying to get married. I'm still bloody pissed off about this.

The status quo is based on so much of what I like to call "homophobic folklore", such as the ideas that homosexuality is a "corrupting" force in society (see the column in today's Seattle Times equating same-sex marriage with "broken-window syndrome" in a neighborhood); that LGBT people are somehow able to "devalue" social institutions by participating in them; and that children can only thrive in heterosexual/monogamous households. I'm beginning to think that, since my degree is in Anthropology, I ought to do a bit more research and writing on homophobic folklore/mythology, all the better to expose and debunk the B.S. Maybe compare said mythology between a few different societies...

Anyway, to all my LGBTQ friends, neighbors, acquaintances, fellow musicians and fellow activists: Peace, Love and Courage! Never give up!! Never go back! Eventual victory is only a matter of time, effort and lots of bridge-building!!

I am truly heartened by all of the posts, in the sense that in these times, political awareness is most vital. A politically active society is one that functions well, since the politicians are more likely to provide sensible leadership and less likely to only listen to special interests.

The special interests will always have a measure of influence, but their power is reduced when the citizenry is politically astute.

By "tolerant" you of course mean "people who agree with my point of view," for if you meant "accepting one another's views" you are then condemning your own argument by being "intolerant" of the man - woman marriage philosophy.
Whenever the word "tolerant" is used in this sense it is always self-refuting. The same goes with "close-minded." I find many of you to be "close-mided" when it comes to the idea of man-woman marriage.

as regards to equal rights - WE ALREADY HAVE THEM! Every person is equal under the current laws, as expressed by justice sanders:

If we had a statute in this state that said gays and lesbians cannot get married, I think that would be problematic. But the statute says, “Only people of the opposite sex may get married.” So [gays and lesbians] have as much of a right to get married as anyone.

One of many mind-boggling arguments in the court ruling: there is no history of same-sex marriage in Washington State or the US. The justices are lazy and unobservant. Commited gays have been marrying as best as they are able for a long time. The book Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers documents marriages between women dating back to the 1920s. This blog is loaded with queers referring to their spouses, just as my wife and I have since our big wedding three years ago. Our marriage is just not legally recognized.

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