Either you are with us, or you are with the tunnels.

So does this mean that the bus tunnel and the additional tunnels Sound Transit is building are killers? How about the New York subway system? Lotta tunnels there.

And Annie, since you are happy to play structural engineer, can you explain why the mayor's proposed Alaskan Way Tunnel is similar to the Big Dig and not these other tunnels?

"after 12 tons of concrete ceiling panels crushed a car carrying newlyweds through a connector tunnel, killing the woman as the couple headed to Logan Airport"

This was in Massachussets, so why does the article say "the woman" of the couple of newlyweds was killed, when there are 2 other combinations that can be assumed, one with no woman, another with two? Am I just being overly sensitive here (and insensitive to a tragic story)?

What's sad here is that Annie uses the same "logic" racists use. One black man commits a violent crime, therefore all black men must be violent criminals. One Muslim man commits an act of terror, therefore all Muslim men must be terrorists.

It's the kind of leap that Karl Rove and his predecessor, Lee Atwater, have exploited to brilliant effect. You'd think that a writer for The Stranger could be a little better than that.

The Elliot Bay tunnel construction (through loose fill, native american sites, tidewater, etc) would be an engineering and political nightmare from which even our children will not be able to awake. Plus keeping it ventilated, lit and watertight would be really, really expensive (plus not green at all). Oh yeah, it would be a terrorist magnet (drive in, explode, water rushing in, trapped drowning victims, lovely background of the Olympics and Seattle skyline to set off the images of horror). Plus, Nickels can't do transportation projects right. He just can't. Sorry, Greg, you're snakebit.

Y'know, if we're going to worry about structures being terrorist magnets, then let's not build bridges, let's not build light rail or monorail, let's not build sports stadia, let's not build tall buildings. In fact, let's not have any concentrated downtowns and just make everything as spread out as possible. And let's start dispersing our financial industry from New York City. Terrorists would love for us to follow this kind of thinking because it would accomplish a lot more than they could by themselves.

By the way, about 3,000 people were killed on September 11. More than 30,000 Americans a year are killed in car accidents. So by this logic, should we also outlaw automobiles?

The same firm designed that leaky, 300% over budget, and years late tunnel system is designing ours -- Parsons Brinckerhoff.

This tunnel is not the Boston big dig.

The key to ensuring a construction project is safely built is to make sure there is 1) a realistic cost estimate, and 2) adequate funding, so that there is no need for shoddy construction due to an inadequate budget.

Greg Nickels will ensure the tunnel project is on time and on budget. He has years of experience and a proven track record in this regard.

I feel like I'm living in bizzarro world...

Bellevue city council supports light rail over buses: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/eastsidenews/2003119167_signs11e.html

Mayor Gridlock supports $4bn (at least) for a new SOV superhighway through seattle with questionable engineering success, after killing $1.7bn rail line that was very slightly over budget...

Ugh...

It's all part of a cunning plot to get more federal dollars by claiming the terrorists attacked the people slaughtered in Greg's Underwater Tunnel That Avoids Downtown Exits and Adds Tolls.

See, kill off a few citizens, get lots of federal bucks ...

"Tunnels Don't Kill People. People Kill People."

SoiDisant: We're a MINORITY, get over it! Do we have to be excruciatingly comprehensive in political correctness all the time? No wonder we're becoming the world's most obnoxious minority group.

Council members said the trains won out because they're cheaper in the long run and would connect easily with the light-rail line already under construction from Seattle to Tukwila, and later to the SeaTac.

Really, Bellevue? How is that?

Also, the proposed line's supposed to head into Capitol Hill, then north into the U District. Do you bisect the future line with the line from Redmond to Seattle? Do you know that the logistics will be easy to implement, or even feasible?

Also, how will you cross Lake Washington? If you build it along 520, what happens when they eventually tear down and replace 520? It's a floating bridge, so you can't just say, "Leave the pillars and work around them," because it'd likely be built right on the bridge.

Also, do you have any idea how much is this gonna cost, beyond vagueries about making it affordable?

It's a great idea in theory, but I don't think they've put much research into this idea at all.

A tunnel failing in Boston does not mean Nickels' tunnel will fail. The gross cost overruns of the Big Dig are what Seattle and Washington residents should be concerned about - the $4B Viaduct quote was estimated years ago - before energy prices started dramatically rising. RISING ENERGY PRICES = RISING CONSTRUCTION COSTS. Concrete and steel are extremely energy-intensive to produce and transport. $4B for this project is a joke - and exactly what the $14B Big Dig was quoted at originally! That's the similarity we should be concerned about.

Gomez,

The details I had heard on KUOW said the proposed line would start on the Phase I line under construction now, proceed across I-90 mercer island and bellevue, north I-405 and then down the 520 corridor to redmond.

Sounds reasonable to me. Apparently the big deciding factor was lower operating costs.

This strikes me a such a better expendeture of money than the tunnel. We are operating in a somewhat zero-sum situation.

Okay, at least they intend to run it along I-90. That's a huge relief.

One hopes it doesn't impact frequency of runs along the original line between Downtown and Sea-Tac. Adding a mainline intersection complicates things.

Cressona is Greg Nickels posting in drag. And hopefully wearing it while he posts. Yeah, accidents happen all the time, and we can't let them stop us from moving through the world and building things or traveling and doing our business. But when you put all your money and your trips through one very expensive high-tech utility, you'd better make damn sure it's reliable. But we're different here, right? That happened in corrupt, old east Coast mafiosi Boston. It could never, never happen here.

The tunnel won't have overruns, it will be environmentally friendly, and perfectly safe. Keep repeating that, suckers.

While I don't think it's been settled, I think there will be a transfer station somewhere south of downtown, with the lines staying seperate. The mainline won't be affected that way, but eastsiders will need to transfer once.

The parallel for this is the viaduct, not the subway tunnel. Um, you'd be in a train.

Is there anyone who would rather have this tunnel instead of a west seattle to ballard rail line + surface boulevard ala Peoples Waterfront Commission?

What is the case for spending the same amount of money on a short stub tunnel that ends at the pikes place market compared to a complete rail line?

I still cannot get my mind around the utter insanity of building a massive tunnel in brackish water right across a known major earthquake fault line. http://wrgis.wr.usgs.gov/docs/wgmt/pacnw/lifeline/map66kb.html
Stupidest plan ever.

Grant Cogswell: "Cressona is Greg Nickels posting in drag."

Actually Grant, not only am I not Greg Nickels, but I spent a considerable amount of my own time, money, and patience last year to give the mayor hell for pulling his support for the monorail.

I'd be the first person to tell you that Greg Nickels is a hypocrite and Tim Ceis is Rasputin, but I'm not about to stick it to the future of this city just so I can stick it to this city's leadership in City Hall.

The tunnel won't have overruns, it will be environmentally friendly, and perfectly safe. Keep repeating that, suckers.

LOL because the Green Line would've had no cost overruns (nevermind that the budget ballooned once before ground had even been broken), been completed right on schedule, would've been perfectly safe and had no malfunctions.

PIXIE DUST!!!!

Even with the cost overruns, and including maintainace and operating costs, the monorail worked out to 1/2 what this thing is going to cost before its overruns and horrifying upkeep costs.

Do you think it is twice as useful to the city? Have as positive an impact?

I'm no monorail partisan. Light rail, elevated rail, anything but car lanes.

I can attest that Cressona isn't Greg.

But just imagine if the Pakistani bombers attacked Greg's Underwater Tunnel ... we'd make India look like a safe place.

And I think, when you add in financing, tolls, and all that, the total final cost of Greg's Unwanted Tunnel is about TEN times what the Monorail would have cost. At the very least, it's a lot more per year, and the citizens seemed to have a problem paying for that, so they'll be very very angry if they get the tunnel and have to pay for it.

So, Cressona, you fight transit and support megahighway tunnels. Are you Tim Eyman? Are you the president of General Motors? Are you Dick Cheney? Are you the Caliph of Oman?

Grant, I had just said I have fought for transit. I donated a painful amount of my time and money to three monorail campaigns. I'll be out there campaigning for light rail in 2007 or 2008. I volunteered many hours against Tim Eyman's I-745 that would have forced the state to spend 90% of its transportation money on roads. And I believe that the most critical thing the federal government can do for the environment and national security is to gradually increase the gas tax by a dollar or more.

But y'know, if the guy who co-wrote the original monorail ballot language to make it sound like a parody of reckless populism might actually mistake my arguments for those of a transit opponent -- well, I take that as a compliment, I take that as a sign that I'm a pragmatist who actually inhabits the real world.

"I'll be out there campaigning for light rail in 2007 or 2008."

Happens all the time. They leave one abusive relationship, then end up right back in another. It is like they seek the creeps out. Counselling helps break the cycle.

Cressona, darling, let me give you a hug. It is just low self esteem. You are a great person inside - you just need to learn how to respect yourself.

Golob, my comment wasn't in support of the tunnel (which I've stated time and again is a bad idea), but in refutation to the notion that the monorail's shit didn't stink.

My apologies to Cressona, I thought she said she gave the mayor hell UNTIL he pulled his support for the monorail. This town is so full of people who like to look like they give a whip about the environment but act politically to its detriment that I thought this was just another architect tallking big and acting small. Mea culpa.
So I need to post only in 'Now I'm Drunk' when I'm drunk (-ish) but this still begs the question, C, why do you want to see us spend billions on a highway tunnel when it will just make more people drive? We're doomed to sitting in traffic anyway as long as we continue down this foolish path, so why spend billions adding to the problem as if it was 1954? How will not replacing a highway ruin this city?