I was just about to email you about this. I'm really interested to hear what you think about the article.
My partner and I have seen West Hollywood turning over (gay -> straight and child-free -> childey) steadily for the last two years. Sure, ok. But when a woman with a toddler asked us to "PLEASE, be a little more sensitive of little ears" to head off our gay coffeeshop conversation of blowjobs, frankly, I want to tell her to just fuck off. If she doesn't want to hear it, she doesn't have to come to the gayborhood. Thoughts?

Portland's Pearl District used to be real sleazy, not the kind of place to raise children. Now The Pearl the showpiece of the city.

Seattle finally cleaned up First Avenue, and now you can take toddlers there, even Pike and Pine used to be more tacky. Now all of Capitol Hill is getting more child friendly. Once they clean up Broadway it'll be even better. I'll be glad when they tear Club Z down. Wouldn't it be ironic if they built a sparkling day care for downtown workers on that location?

Cities change and become more dense and diverse. As that happens the sleaze, the hookers and the street people either have to leave or clean up their act.

Capitol Hill used to have a lot more weirdoes and poor people living there. Those types drive down property values for everyone.

The Pearl District in Portland used to be one of those $175 warehouse-with-no-heat neighborhoods, now condos in those locations sell for millions.

Property values in Gay neighborhoods usually go up, up, up. When a better class of people moves in with their strollers and fat paychecks, everyone's property appreciates. Even Capitol Hill used to be more run down, once they fix up Broadway it'll be like Portland's Pearl district, and some of those new condos will sell for millions.

In other news, the sky is blue.

Portland is gross - it's not diverse, it's white, rich, and boring!

When Guppy's on California was replaced by Ovio Bistro, I cried. I miss the leather fags and their motorcycles - it made my neighborhood interesting.

I'm so fucking sick of the "rich + clean = GOOD!" mentality. I'm *thisclose* to moving back to the reservation - but you can't get Vietnamese food there.

I always thought the sleaze, hookers and street people added to the diversity.

And million-dollar condos are a good thing?

The difference between the Castro and say, old NW Portland or 1rst Ave isn't a vice or visual blight issue. The Castro has been full of upscale cafes, resturaunts, and expensive houses for years. Its a nice neighborhood, like a nicer Capitol Hill or a more dense, urban Wallingford-Fremont. What folks are complaining about are things like window displays at gay themed stores/tourist shops, bar/club advertising or suggestive names, etc. Things that, you know, remind people of its specific historic value as a neighborhood for sexual liberation, tolerance, queer rights, and freedom of speech and association. Some of this has been risque, no shit, and neighborhoods change, but is it right to neglect a neighborhood's rich history like that.

I've also never really seen anything pattently obscene (suggestive, yes) around the Castro in terms of advertising... its not like there's a big billboard of a huge cock or something.

I'm a straight heifer, but I love visiting The Castro with my friends when I'm in SF. It's a lively, liberated and fun neighborhood. Sleazy is not a way I would describe it. "Randy" at times yes, but not sleazy.

The "it takes a village" concept has it's merits. However, if the "village" has been established and functioning for a long time, you KNEW what the village was like when you move into it, and you didn't bothered to ask the villagers if they were interested in helping raise your kids, why should you expect the village at large to now neutralize itself in order to suit your individual needs? Besides, there are lots of "moderate" neighborhoods in SF in which to live. I like kids, and I don't complain about having to pay for public schools (no kids), but it's disappointing when communities have to "de-flavorize" themselves because of personal choices that others have suddenly made.

I'm with ya, Scott G. I lived in the Castro for a few years and loved it there largely because of its history and identity.

My landlord was my upstairs neighbor, a wife and mother of three. I know she and her husband love the vibrancy and identity of the neighborhood, and they've strolled past many a storefront dildo display.

And by the way, the real holiday in the Castro is Halloween.

I think this story may be stretching things quite a bit. I've been to SF many times, and love hanging out in the Castro. I've never seen kids there, ever!

The storefronts can be suggestive, but little more than that.

People go to the Castro because it is what it is. It's free entertainment! It's uber-gay! It's leather daddies and bears!

Anyway, if the Castro were EVER to be "castrated", the things that make it fun and interesting will simply move somewhere else. I don't think there's much to worry about as far as the Castro "cleaning up it's act" though.

If you want some REAL fun, go to San Francisco for one of it's more notorious "street fairs"...either Dore Alley or Folsom Street. People are walking around naked, getting whipped in public, urinated on (willingly), etc. San Francisco is a city where "live and let live" is actually practiced, not just preached.

Pearl District is what everyone agrees a neighborhood should be. Portland is the best city in the country now, and many in Seattle love Pearl and wouldn't mind if Capitol Hill had similar restaurants, night life, and beautiful condos.

With more density Capitol Hill can attract sophisticated urban dwellers but
sleezy gay clubs like Club Z have to make way for people with the children and income that make great restaurants, theatre, and exciting urban life possible.

First off, I have to call Porland on being a jackass. "When a better class of people move in..."? WTF is that supposed to mean?

Secondly, I'm all with Scott G and 98117. There's nothing usually on display in the Castro or West Hollywood that couldn't show up on Family Guy. Now, street fairs and Halloween are a different mattter. However, if parents haven't checked things like that out ahead of time, how responsible are they to be bringing their kids to it?

Last year at Halloween in West Hollywood there were all these parents shocked, SHOCKED, that scantily clad gay men were parading around the streets in front of their children. However, those parading gay men are the reason that they came to a street fair in West Hollywood in the first place. It's the same in the Castro or on Capitol Hill - they want the spectacle, but only on their terms.

Those naked Gay Parades are embarassing. When I moved to Capitol Hill I heard they'd recently moved the parade to another neighborhood.

Some told me the Seattle Parade had degenerated to the point that many in the gay community had become critical of it. Most people know that scantily clad gay men parading around the streets in front of children doesn't make a community.

That Club Z place sounds awful, everyone will be happy when it get's torn down. And it's time to retire the embarassing Gay Pride events, their best days are long gone. Why not do something acceptable to everyone in the neighborhood? After all children are people too.

Why are we singling out Club Z? There's also another bathhouse in Seattle, just blocks from Club Z, called Club Seattle. Gay men go there and have sex too. Why is one bathhouse sleazy and the other not? What about Basic Plumbing, just about six blocks from Club Seattle? Gay men go there to get blow jobs, and what-not. What about The Eagle? Gay men sometimes engage in sex acts in the outdoor patio area. They also have "pee night" there.

Let's get rid of all of them!!

Let's get rid of anything having to do with gay sex. That way, gay men can be accepted, sort of.

If you don't like embarassing gay parades, then don't go to one. If you don't like just the one sleazy bathhouse (the other one is just fine, thank you), then don't go there. If you don't like gay men engaging in sex acts in the outdoor patio at The Eagle, then don't take your kids there, or something...

So far there's only been one Gay Sex Club profile in The Stranger. I hope they'll soon profile the other clubs so that people raising children in the community know about them too.

I don't know why The Stranger singled out Club Z, my guess is it was the worst one.

The Club Z article described the place as sleazy and filthy. Once the property values go up, most of those places will have to give way to businesses that welcome children, parents and the whole community.

I've heard that Capitol Hill used to be much worse, but with all the new development going in things have really improved.

Fuck the children. You want to raise your brats in a padded bubble? That's your choice. Just don't make my world your bubble.

I think Portland's Pearl District is hideously sanitized. My BF and I spend a fair amount of time in Portland and are always told about the "wonderful, interesting" Pearl Dist., so we spent an afternoon there on our last visit. It seemed like a huge movie set, overly groomed, art-directed, and boring as hell. We stopped into a Pearl District clothing store and were greated by a display of $200 men's socks, for goddsake. Give me Vaseline Alley any day.

Try Auburn or White Center if you want cheap socks and a Vaseline Alley atmosphere.

Great restaurants, great shopping are what make a city vibrant. Nobody is forcing you to buy socks. Treating yourself to expensive clothes, and shopping in an groomed, art-directed movie set is one of the rewards of working hard.

I'll bet Capitol Hill merchants would love to be able to sell $200 socks. Trashy neighborhoods can be found in any town. Density brings diversity, income, and a wide variety of shops.

It's a free country, no one is forcing you to eat in fancy restraurants or buy nice clothes.

P.S. Wall Mart always has socks for cheap.

Hey Alex--
I treat myself to plenty of expensive clothes, but I try to do it without a smug sense of entitlement. You might try that.

I also work hard, and have for quite some time. But I work at things I feel are worth doing for their own sake. I don't slave away at something I don't care about so I can be "rewarded" with $200 socks.

What's happening in the Castro, and has happened in Belltown, and to a certain degree is happening on Cap Hill, is that moneyed bores want to live in "vibrant" and "diverse" neighborhoods, but as soon as they move in, whine and gentrify and complain until any vibrancy and diversity is driven out.

Ridding a neighborhood of so called unwanted activity is no answer to building a better neighborhood. it is just rewriting the history by people that have a fear of life in general.
As I have discussed in the "bleak House" forum (Club Z). The club will disappear and then the condo owners will probably turn their "cleaning up the neighborhood" attention to towards the Eagle across the street. This form of redevelopment is destroying cities everywhere all in the name of property values. A million dollar condo does not make a great neighborhood, culture and embracing the past history of a neighborhood does. It gives it a soul and some meaning. It doesn't matter if it is the Castro, the pearl district or Capitol hill, if developers and the people that believe in poor redevelopment strategies that target the history of cities are allowed to dictate the sanitizing of neighborhoods. Then you will have a soulless city. It is not condos that make the neighborhood it is the people and the richness of the culture that exists. Some things will fall but you can not erase the history and soul of a neighborhood by screaming "save the Children" PC driven drivel. The children will be better of in the long run if they take in and understand what is happening around them and are not shielded by fear driven overly protective parents that probably should not have had kids in the first place. If they only want them to see, hear and do what they the parents want them to do then those parents will be run ragged. After you have finished sanitizing your neighborhood and it's history what will your next target be. It is endless so accept it and live a real life instead of a fearful life.

Homeowners have a right to make money on their investment. If neighborhood development decisions raise property values everyone benefits.

Who says a neighborhood has to be sleazy to have soul? Or that because someone lives in a million dollar condo they have no soul?

There are plenty of millionaires on Capitol Hill that contribute to making it an interesting, vibrant community.

If you want to live in a slum with "soul" check out Auburn or Lake City. Capitol Hill will not miss you.

Everyone benefits if property values go up? I don't think so. I've lived on Capitol Hill for twenty years, and as a renter have watched apartment rates skyrocket to match "property values". How does spending a larger and larger percentage of my income on rent benefit me, exactly?

only property owners benefit when property values go up, working class renters can just eat shit.

and what is up with the fucking breeder yuppies on the slog?

"it's time to retire the embarassing Gay Pride events, their best days are long gone. Why not do something acceptable to everyone in the neighborhood? After all children are people too."

"sleezy gay clubs like Club Z have to make way for people with the children and income that make great restaurants, theatre, and exciting urban life possible."

"those places will have to give way to businesses that welcome children, parents and the whole community."

yeah, your kids make this neighborhood fucking fascinating. they are sooo special. they never shit themselves and cry in public. and you're cooler than other parents, too.

i can't wait until they tear down the bars, replace the cheap eateries with yuppie cafes (green cat becomes dinette, anybody?), and put in a gap kids. then we can all shop and breed and watch tivo in peace and quiet.

This problem arises when parents are trying desperately to cling to their hipster lifestyle. Move to Bellevue or Daly City or whatever suburb has appropriately kid-friendly storefronts and good schools.

I have lived in belltown long before it started to be cleaned up. It still has some great places to go to along with new establishments. I lived with neighbors that brought up their daughter in that neighborhood she saw everything that was going on in the neighborhood and her parents explained it all to her. She is now a teenager, far more street wise and very well adjusted.
Ridding a neighborhood of everything questionable (and the list just gets bigger the more you close things down) and bragging about million dollar condos being in your neighborhood does not make a better neighborhood. Community and history remembered along with smart development will. The notion that razing your children in a clean sanitized neighborhood will give you a better life is false. When those kids are teenagers and realize just how much you have hidden and held them back you will have a major problem with relating to them. But then I guess you can just shift the blame to all the things you deem bad in society. I have seen rushed expensive bad development in other cities and I have seen some good development. All the bad development was based upon million dollar property value driven ideas. The good development and smart development that included things like believe it or not "bathhouses" (and Club Seattle will still be standing after Club Z is gone in that same neighborhood) along with pubs, clubs, sex toy shops and places to buy your produce next door all retain a better property value because it is more diverse and interesting. Yes you can bring your kids up there too and they will be smarter.