Link does not work.

Wouldn't it have been better to protest, I don't know, before the vote? It's baffling how aggressive people are now after the fact. Perhaps if that energy had been utilized prior to Nov. 4 this wouldn't be an issue.

The link didn't work, David. Typically disorganized effort by gay rights orgs? Or fat-finger on your part?

@1: The site's been up and down over past day or so, I've noticed. There's also a Facebook group if you search "join the impact."

What Sam said...

Isn't city hall like the least visible meeting spot on the hill? Is anyone going to notice a flock of gays in a group hidden on a side street surrounded by big trees?

Thanks for the info, Darcy. Like I said, typically disorganized BS. It's no wonder we're, like, 0 for 28 or 1 for 29 in these efforts.

Maybe if all gay protests were done as underwear parties, they might be a little more successful...

Carollani, we homos are always hiding behind big trees, it's our natural habitat.

A week late and a dollar short.

I'll be there. "Oh, Marry!"

I really think a lot of us got so wrapped up in Obama's election, and it becoming more and more of a reality that we were going to elect a liberal African American man to the presidency, that we lost sight of the disheartening hurdles we still face to winning equal rights for the LGBT community. I know I did, and I'm feeling some serious remorse for it now.

Plus, I really didn't think that Prop 8 would pass. Naive in retrospect, but I really didn't think it would.

Protesting is a positive way to express our anger and commitment to the fight. It also let's foes and friends alike to know we're not going to sit down and take this outrage. I'll be there.

Think of it this way:

Prop 8 is passed and we don't live in CA. BUT BUT BUT protesting locally and kicking up a fuss about this raises awareness to our local politicians that they should sit up and pay attention to gay marriage and maybe even DO SOMETHING with their fucking super majority and democratic governor. I'll be there with husband in tow and as many of my friends as I can muster. I want to get married bitches!

Cool with it - but - city hall is shit.

No space, and with a compleely pro marriage city govt. - what is the symbolism?

Something planned in Volunteer Park and march to Westlake as well -

Obviously City Hall was designated in the dark from people not in Seattle.

Love the activism, anytime. The nation is is tuned in right now, great time.

A centerpiece should be couples who did go to Calif and got married

Hey, Mr. Schmader: please encourage Mr. Savage and all of those who might be involved in local efforts to make earnest, positive outreach toward local communities of color, gay and straight alike, and let the healing begin. Whaddya say?

We need everyone's involvement, and not a repeat of the shameful racism of the Prop 8 Protests in WeHo last week.

@6/14: I think the main issue is that the people running jointheimpact.com have just chosen the city halls of capital/major cities as protest sites, with hopes that individuals living in those cities could step up to organize at the local level. Under the "local contacts" section, you can find individual email contacts for a lot of the protests, and presumably actually hook up with other people who will be there, so maybe the Seattle protest could be moved someplace more visible.

1) I think the narrow focus on the LDS Church is actually pretty smart. Broadening this to protest the entire world only serves to dilute the message. The City Hall protest seems rather pointless to me.

2) The progressive community was focused on electing Barack Obama President, and that took away from the energy that was available to fight Prop. 8. We can debate whether that was the right focus, but criticizing people for standing up now is also pointless. Either way, there remains a lot of work to do.

3) It is notoriously difficult to organize a group like the gay community. This is not a monolithic group with a single leader. I'm glad we have an "all of the above" approach, because frankly, there's no alternative. The fight for civil rights will be messy and with setbacks, but I'm glad to stand in the right place with the right community. We'll get there, and all signs are pointing in the right direction, even if we don't get there as fast as I'd like.

The pressure should be on Obama to repeal DOMA - or else it's just noise. Without constant, very visible pressure, it will most likely take him until after the 2012 election to get around to it. Too bad you missed an opportunity to protest on Veteran's Day. There's not enough pressure on DADT. When DADT falls, DOMA is bound to follow. Can't refuse to hand the flag off the casket to the same-sex partner can they? The way I see it, DADT & DOMA are joined at the hip, and there is much more support for repealing DADT.

@14--isn't City Hall where we'd get our marriage licenses? It has a courtyard ammenable to demonstration. Why V-Park in the gay ghetto?

This should be focused on the place where our marriages will take place. And sure, we have a pro-gay-marriage city government, but maybe we need to remind them exactly how large the support is for it--right on their front steps.

@2, you're RIGHT on. I still think protesting is worthwhile now, but damn, if people had been this fired up a couple weeks ago, I really doubt we'd be in this mess. In the run up to the election, I was amazed how little Prop 8 was being discussed locally in Seattle and in other states outside of California because, frankly, the national ramifications would be huge no matter which side the vote landed on. As a Seattleite, I'm not affected by Prop 8 materially, but I donated money to NO because of the larger implications. And the national impact has indeed been huge since Tuesday night. Oh well, I guess. We can't look back now. We need to rally this intensity and keep moving forward.

@7 - If you get through, you'll find that the huge amount of traffic took out the servers of the host donating space. They're moving to a new host. Don't be so snarky, it can happen to anyone.

Andy,

Dan's almost fifty; he should already know people of color in the 'community'. He is totally mainstream in this regard. If he does reach out now, people will sense that it is insincere, because it WILL be insincere. It's obvious from his lack of suggestions to go with his statistical data that his first thoughts were mainly of vilifying and revenge. This has not changed. I counseled, tested, and otherwise wasted my time with this movement for six years, and got shit for my pains. But his last several articles were a real slap in the face. Fuck you and your damage control.

@17--If we were going to target the religious institutions who were responsible for the Prop 8 victory in California, we can't just protest the LDS Temples, but the Catholic churches as well, no?

See: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/09/MNU1140AQQ.DTL

@22--so you are saying give up? Don't do outreach? What? Fuck who's damage control? Clarify.

Protests are completely useless if nobody notices.

Did last weekend's protest of 50 people in front of the mormon church make the news anywhere in Seattle besides the Stranger? (An honest question; I don't watch TV.)

If we hold a large protest in front of city hall, and it is in coordination with similar protests around the country, then I guarantee it will make the news. If it makes the news, it at least has some chance of having a positive effect.

So, yeah. I'm all for it. Hopefully it won't be at 8:00am this time. Ugh.

I don't give a shit if you hate the way the thing is organized, or if you wish people could have done more before so Prop 8 failed. Now is your chance to actually do something. As non Californians people all over the country are showing respect for each other by attending this thing. I don't care how you get there, but PLEASE go, show people that you support equality. More bitching and infighting is not the solution now.

@25: Seattle Times, at least.

I can't speak for the television, either.

@25 -- yes, it made at least one of the networks. Sorry, I forget which one.

@city hall complainers -- are you confusing City Hall downtown where they issue marriage licenses with Town Hall on First Hill, where they have string quartets, book readings and political speakers?

The damage control you are suggesting for Dan. Everyone now knows who he is, as if his vote on the Iraq War weren't enough to let them know. I'm saying now is the time for minorities to let gays earn their rights the hard way. I worked for six years in the non-circuit-party wing of activism. And our members declined every year. You should know why you lost: apathy. I refuse to fight for marriage when I know that if you win, then you will say that things such as AIDS are a 'black problem'. If you didn't plan to ditch us after you got what you wanted, then why were your black ALLIES called racial slurs when they didn't vote your way? I've encountered too much of the same in my time at the clinic. Barebacking is WAY up. People with AIDS go on disability and use the money to party their asses off. But gay marriage--non-monogamous, commercialized gay marriage--is at the forefront of your minds. And this is an excuse for racial slurs? Fuck you.

Re protesting the Catholic Church as well...

Again, they are much too big a target, and frankly, were much less involved in this effort.

Targeting the LDS Church provides a focused target. Sundance. Utah. LDS Temples. These are visible targets that can get noticed.

...additionally, I think the focus should be not on changing the minds of the faithful obedient mormons, but rather, making moderate mormons who think they "are on our side" very uncomfortable sitting in the pews with the fundamentalist mormons.

In essence, as Sam Harris argues in The End of Faith, it is time for moderates to choose which crowd they stand with.

A serious question - who chose City Hall on a Saturday? That part of town is dead on Saturday morning. Besides which, our City Hall is pretty 'mo-friendly. If the idea is visibility, Westlake would have been a better option. Also, what's the message? Marriage equality in Washington? All over the U.S.? Reverse Prop 8 in CA? This seems poorly and hastily organized, and announcing this only a week beforehand makes it unlikely to be well-coordinated. I understand time is of the essence, but I have some misgivings about this.

The website referenced in this post has actually been moved to http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com. There was too much traffic so we had to move servers! This new site is a wiki, so everyone can add information. If you know of a new location where a rally is happening on Saturday, add it yourself. You can also look here for inspiration for signs.

25: It was the lead story on KIRO's broadcast news last night.

@25

Ok....the new link says the protest is in volunteer park and the contact email is different. The hell?

Andy,

New, improved sample as per an earlier thread. Aren't you glad Dan spread those false figures halfway around the world? Aren't you glad that white gays shouted racial slurs? Latinos voted against equality by a margin of FOUR PERCENT more than blacks. The damage is done.
"1,200 voters from 50 precincts in Los Angeles in Tuesday's election, estimating that 50 percent of Latinos voted for Proposition 8 and 39 opposed it, while 47 percent of African-Americans voted for it and 40 percent against it."

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_10910908

@32: broken link (period at end of sentence unfortunately auto-included); use http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/ instead

er....@32 rather for my last comment. Sorry guys, the coffee is just kicking in.

Keith Olbermann's Comment on Countdown tonight is against Proposition 8.

Can anyone actually access the website? If so, can you post what, if anything, is happening in Portland? Thanks!

Apparently two efforts are combining to do one event on Sat.

1. Starting on the Hill at V. Park at 10:30 am

2.March to Westlake for a rally.

This second hand, but accurate. Stay tuned for details.

I think every body should be there.

Both V. Park and Westlake can take 10,000 which should be our goal. Start on the picket signs and bring noise makers. This should be massive, noisy and demanding and creative.

@35: There are so many conflicting numbers there, is there a whitesheet of some sort? (LOL, WHITESHEET)

Anyway, I'm all for local protests. Our super-majority and liberal governor makes it easy to get marriage passed for at least a few years and King County makes it impossible to do anything worse than our weak-ass DOMA.

Protesting only works if you spend money on the legal fight to overturn it.

Pass the hat.

We think the main site is being overwhelmed by so many trying to log onto to it across the country.

We've set up a facebook and a myspace page for our Seattle event, so I encourage you to go there for the most up to date info.

We are currently trying to secure the necessary permits that will allow us to march from City Hall to Westlake Center as well.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1638551346&ref=profile

http://home.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user

"A week late and a dollar short."

Folks, I'm doubtful the anti-marriage forces in Arizona were saying this two years ago when their constitutional amendment proposition failed by a narrow margin. They saw it as an opportunity to regroup, refine their message, and put it back on the ballot as Proposition 102 this year. And it won this time by 56%. So, when I hear people whine about the lack of effort, the unfocused organizations, and the apathy that killed same-sex marriage in California, I feel a little frustrated. People did put in an honest effort in California: they phone-banked like crazy, plastered the state with signs, and raised significant amounts of money. The fact is: 52% decided they liked the other side's argument better, no matter how convoluted and based on falsehoods it was. But, 48% did agree with us. Another 2%, and we would be celebrating, not screaming at Mormons and blacks for voting for discrimination. So, not only do we need to rally and reenergize ourselves, but we also need to make a statement to the country that we are not a tiny activist minority, but 5% of the population that is affected by their bias and...well...hatred. We can win back that 2% in California, or 4% in Arizona, or 10% in Florida, but we have to stay in their radar, not as angry, but impassioned and serious.

I think throwing the hate card around is a big mistake. The only ones that actually HATE us are the whacko Fred Phelps types. My guess is that the percentage of people who votes yes on 8 that actually HATE us is astonishingly small. And you know what? Telling people that they're HATEFUL when they're really not is a pretty bad way of winning them over to our side.

I know we're all pretty angry about this, but we need to resist the temptation to throw the H-word around. The vast majority of people who voted yes on 8 are simply misinformed about homosexuality and gay peoples' lives. Gay peoples' lives are actually pretty boring. Ask Dan.

@ 44,

Did no-on-8 people go to places like Redding and Grass Valley and Fresno to try and get out the vote? My guess is no, because the misguided notion seems to be that, "those people hate us, there's no chance it'll be defeated there." Well, I think they're wrong. If you frame your arguments correctly (taking already-established rights away), you can convince a lot of people who otherwise would just listen to what their fellow churchers are saying.

Well now that you've gotten all of your anger out on blacks, you can meekly approach the religious conservatives who voted you out of your rights....

Reaching out to the black community may or may not be a good or a necessary idea in this struggle at this point. But lord jesus, Dan Savage is the last person you want in charge of that exercise if you do take it on.

May I be allowed to reiterate what annoying troll has been getting at, and I really do mean this constructively -- for a change. I don't know all gay black people, but I know a lot of them and I'd say its a fairly representative sampling. The consensus (well Ok. its just my friend's opinion, whatever) is that once gay people (read gay white people) get what they want, that's the end of the game for them.

You think gay blacks were sitting on the side line before? its probably safe to count us out altogether for round two.

Thanks again Dan for your generosity in framing this debate in such a generous and helpful way. Long overdue!

I'm a straight, married, Hispanic woman, and my first thought when I saw the announcement for the National Day of Protest was "AWESOME!" I got all fucking excited.

I checked the comments here because I wanted to see if anyone would be interested in some sort of "poster-making party" someplace with booze.

So all the complaints were a bit disheartening.

It's bitterly disappointing what happened with Prop 8, and all the other anti-family legislation that passed. There was a lot of hope in Prop 8 as a grand, powerful act of change, that could then spread to the rest of the country. I think it still can.

People outside of California are pissed off now. People on local levels across the country are ready to do something, to speak up, to be visible and united. Even in cities and states that are "mostly" gay-friendly.

I'm looking forward to the 15th, no matter where it ends up being. And let me know if you hear of any good places to make signs with a beer in my hand.

A lot, I mean a lot, of people worked very hard to prevent Prop 8 from passing. Don't discount their efforts especially when up against $25 million coming from a church breaking IRS code and a Pro 8 organization that sends out extortion letters. The fact that this went to a popular vote for a matter of civil rights is unfounded. Women's right to vote, african americans being extended civil rights after the civil war, interratial marriage - none of that was by poplular vote. Support efforts for all to be treated equal, don't discount them. Is that so hard?

Karla, this is SLOG, most anything you'll see here has tons of negative comments

#50

Facts are handy. There was no extortion. Mormons members were asked to contribute, most did not.

No IRS violations, the cash came from members not the Church Central. And, there are provisions for non profits to donate, up to 10 percent of their gross, I believe.

In the end our side raised 45 mill the other side 27 mill.

I think we got out organized, defeat is hard, but a crappy campaign most always loses.

The Mormon church put out a position paper two months ago that they will support full civil rights for gay people including civil unions. The word marriage is the line in the sand. I don't like it, and you don't like it - BUT - you will not see Mormons in state legislatures testifying against work place civil rights.

You will see Catholics and a dozen other hard core bigots that will counter anything with gay in the title including hate crime bills, bullying bills, and civil unions.

The Mega Church Called Catholic with so many millions and millions of members is by far a bitter better enemy compared to a small thing called Mormons.

If only the Mormons, even with money, had been the only church on the other side -- we would have won handily. They are only 2 percent of the Calif population.

Sorry, some of this is just anger reaction, and that is OK, but we need some facts too.

Yes, we should have done more work before Nov.4. But we are where we are now, and we have to deal with it. Let's be positive. We need to show the world that we aren't going to roll over. A nationwide protest at city halls will make the news. Sunday is a big newspaper day, so I hope this story will get picked up for those papers.

Let's send a message to our new President-elect and everyone else in the nation what equality means to us.

Let's learn from our mistakes and not be complacent anymore. We will win this thing. Let's make it sooner rather than later.

I've been very angry and hurt about Prop.8, but I now see that it can provide the impetus for a "gay revolution." Maybe it is a blessing in disguise. The scab has been torn off and the deep gash of homophobia that divides our country is now visible. There is no going back for anyone.

We have so much power to create change. I marched in SF last Friday night, and the impromptu crowd was massive. The papers reported one to two thousand. I estimate closer to seven thousand. There were so many young people there. So many people that support us.

I agree that most people who voted yes on 8 aren't haters. They are uninformed, or misinformed. It feels like hatred to us. Let's resist being hateful ourselves. That being said, I do think that peaceful protests of ALL the religion institutions that supported 8 are important.

Prop.8 has changed me on a deep level.

Peace, love and respect.

the facebook and myspace links dont seem to work

Without Prop 8 the term “marriage” is just “some relationship between some people". When government orders us all to believe that “marriage” includes every form of human sexual relationship, it in effect establishes a state religion which celebrates that no marriage is unique . . . . how does that benefit anyone?

We all agree the terms “heterosexuality”, “homosexuality” and “bisexuality” involve unique relationships. How does society benefit from suddenly ignoring those unique differences by using the same legal term, “marriage”, to define all human sexual relationships? We currently protect various defined races, ethnicities, etc., without ignoring their unique differences, why must it be different when we look to sexuality?

Gays are spitting on Latinos & Blacks and their right to Vote and be counted! Latino & Black cultures have lifted and improved our society - while self-centered whining Gays refuse to acknowledge the important role of Latinos and Blacks.

The "new and improved" sample article also says this:

"Seven out of 10 African- American voters and more than half of Latinos backed Proposition 8, according to Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International, which conducted the exit polling used by the National Election Pool."

the sample you're pointing at is from precincts in LA only. What, black people don't live anywhere else in California? Not to mention that the same numbers hold up in FL -- with an astonishing 80% opposition to gay marriage among blacks, 30-44. Which is 1% less thant the opposition to gay marriage among white evangelicals.

I'm not saying blacks caused anything. Savage didn't say that either. He and other people are scratching their heads at the bizarre 20 point and up spread between the way white women voted and black women voted in CA, for instance. Or the 10% spread between the way whites and blacks voted in FL. Is there a reason blacks exhibit so much *more* homophobia. In FL, a relatively young group of blacks is as homophobic as white fundies. It's nuts.

#55. I am angry as you are at the giddy eagerness with which certain segments of our The Beloved Community have singled out black people for opprobrium over passage of prop 8, but I don't think anybody's thinking of yanking our right to vote, a few of them just want to scream nig (out loud, that is.) It will pass and we can soon resume ignoring each other altogether. Be patient.

# 56 "the sample you're pointing at is from precincts in LA only. What, black people don't live anywhere else in California?"

That's right. They hardly live anywhere else. Thank God! (kidding, calm down everyone) 90% in 9 of the state's 58 counties to be exact and big bunch of that 90% is in LA.

The problem with Savage and the others who have decided to single out black people for special scorn is that he shot his entitled mouth off without thinking about the really complex context of the black yes vote. Its just not a simple matter. Kind of how we ended up in Iraq. Got bombed, look for a scapegoat fast. Knee jerk reactions usually lead you down the wrong path in the final analysis.

He should really stick to telling funny stories about improbable sex acts.

I don't have the luxury of editing my comments after the fact, like Dan does with his posts. So you probably didn't see him link to a post that proposed to call a referendum on the established civil rights of blacks as a retaliatory measure for Prop 8. He apparently thought better of it. All down the memory hole. I know he didn't intend it; I was pissed at the fact that the reaction to his posts and the single statistic that they listed effectively stifled any black contribution to the discussion. Stupid.

Stupid positions aren't unusual for Dan. Perhaps you guys don't remember his *old* position on the necessity of safer sex that got him chewed out by Michelangelo Signorile, who, unlike Dan, actually saw the ravages of AIDS up close. Why call Dan a racist when stupidity explains his blunders so much better?

But Dan can do no wrong. So Dan gets to flip out about Garrison Keillor being "homophobic"--an accusation which has no basis in fact--but should I mention that in publishing what he did not once, but over the course of FIVE separate articles, he was stirring the pot and being counter-productive, then I get treated as if I called him racist, which in turn excuses those who feel like venting their rage at losing on 8 at me? To hell with that!

The cumulative effect of the post wasn't to examine *why* blacks voted the way that they did; that would require a bit more rationality than first characterized the flame war which Dan ignited. Instead, the figures from a single exit poll constituted leeway to speculate in a manner that practically excluded actual black input.

Not only so, but this vitriol seemed to constitute the entirety of the brainstorming that would take place on how best to deal with the situation. There was some lip-service as to how black homophobia hurts blacks more than anyone else, but that was merely an attempt to look sensitive. I proposed a bunch of ideas, based on a fairly intimate and personal knowledge of the way fundamentalist groups work, and only one person even saw fit to engage me in a discussion.

But I'm sure that a lot of Mormons will see the error of their ways due to your organization of a giant flash mob in front of their church. I have no doubt that the sight of people carrying picket signs hasn't grown stale to the extent that a person who sees it on t.v. won't immediately tune it out. You have no long-term goals; you've effectively written off a ten-percent segment of steadfast Democrats; and at best the Mormons will be intimidated by the group of angry goons converging on their doorstep.

Have you even discussed the kinds of signs and attitudes which might present you in a negative light, producing photo-ops capable of being exploited everywhere from Sean Hannity to the Dubuque church bulletin? Or are you going to "let it all hang out", as they did over in WeHo? No, wait--this is supposed to be about catharsis and healing and fostering brotherhood, right? Better pack a few fatties, then. Hey, it might even get you laid!