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Wednesday, November 5, 2008

Black Homophobia

posted by on November 5 at 9:55 AM

African American voters in California voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8, writing anti-gay discrimination into California’s constitution and banning same-sex marriage in that state. Seventy percent of African American voters approved Prop 8, according to exit polls, compared to 53% of Latino voters, 49% of white voters, 49% of Asian voters.

I’m not sure what to do with this. I’m thrilled that we’ve just elected our first African-American president. I wept last night. I wept reading the papers this morning. But I can’t help but feeling hurt that the love and support aren’t mutual.

I do know this, though: I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.

This will get my name scratched of the invite list of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, which is famous for its anti-racist-training seminars, but whatever.

Finally, I’m searching for some exit poll data from California. I’ll eat my shorts if gay and lesbian voters went for McCain at anything approaching the rate that black voters went for Prop 8.

UPDATE: Early the morning after this post went up Stephanie wrote in comments…

Mr. Savage, do you endorse the hostile, racist things some people are saying here? Since I know you have read some of these comments, please clarify that the angriest posters are misreading your position or taking things too far. You are a community leader, and I think some of your readers need some guidance from you.

Of course I don’t endorse any of the hostile, racist comments posted here. I stopped reading this thread, though, early yesterday afternoon; I couldn’t keep up. I will be posting something else to Slog about this today, after I file my weekly “Savage Love” column. And please note: My original post described black homophobia as a big problem for all gays and lesbians, whatever their color. This isn’t about African Americans beating up on gay white men and women; African American gays and lesbians are the ones who suffer the most from African American homophobia.

And I was asked why I didn’t go after, say, the Mormon Church, which bankrolled this thing: I have written numerous posts slamming the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church, as any regular reader of Slog would be aware.

More later.

RSS icon Comments

1

I can't defend the votes of my fellow Californians -- but I couldn't help noting that the Mormon-backed campaign for Prop 8 was seriously deceitful. Massive mailings aimed at African-Americans falsely claimed that Obama supported the Proposition; and other ads and mailers lied about children being forced to learn Gay Studies in grade school etc. etc. etc.

It was nasty and despicable. And as much as 70% of the funding came from the Mormon Church campaign.
Sick.

Posted by jj | November 5, 2008 10:04 AM
2

Fuck.

I am now taking a couple of day break from being overjoyed about the new president to be depressed about the unfairness of what just happened in california.

I swear, if Obama and a democratic congress can't deliver federal civil unions within the next four years, I am not voting for Obama for re-election. Fuck change. Gay people aren't doormats you can use to help win an election and then forget like Clinton did.

This is absolutely awful.

Posted by olechka | November 5, 2008 10:05 AM
3

I tried to post this to an earlier thread, but it wouldn't work... sigh.

Prop 8 passing was the one buge heartbreak of the night for me.... I thought our country was better than this. Black and white, I thought we had figured out a bit more about what love and respect meant.

I guess not: I just had a conversation about how marriage equality all boils down to allowing couples in love as many choices as possible reguardless of their gender and a really progressive white co-worker used the analogy "if a 40 year-old man and 10 year-old girl want to choose something, how do we not legislate against it?"

What the fuck?!?!?! Consent? How about basic reason?

I don't want to admit it, but we still have a long way to go.... sadly.

Posted by Erin | November 5, 2008 10:06 AM
4

I am feeling the same bittersweet feeling this morning. How can such a historic moment for African-Americans in the US be paired with another huge set back for LGBT rights? How can the parallels between banning interracial marriage and banning gay marriage not be seen? How long will it be in the US before we have a gay president?

Posted by Atlanta | November 5, 2008 10:08 AM
5

Fuck.

I am now taking a couple of day break from being overjoyed about the new president to be depressed about the unfairness of what just happened in california.

I swear, if Obama and a democratic congress can't deliver federal civil unions within the next four years, I am not voting for Obama for re-election. Fuck change. Gay people aren't doormats you can use to help win an election and then forget like Clinton did.

This is absolutely awful.

Posted by olechka | November 5, 2008 10:09 AM
6

I was just coming here to post about this. It's a maddening statistic, and it took away all of my hope that somehow, this relatively close vote could somehow have been a fraudulent one.

Maybe this is what Obama meant when he talked about what changes we could hope for by the time his kids turn 106. Though for speed's sake, I hope not.

Posted by Sam M. | November 5, 2008 10:09 AM
7

Fuck.

I am now taking a couple of day break from being overjoyed about the new president to be depressed about the unfairness of what just happened in california.

I swear, if Obama and a democratic congress can't deliver federal civil unions within the next four years, I am not voting for Obama for re-election. Fuck change. Gay people aren't doormats you can use to help win an election and then forget like Clinton did.

This is absolutely awful.

Posted by olechka | November 5, 2008 10:10 AM
8

Fuck.

I am now taking a couple of day break from being overjoyed about the new president to be depressed about the unfairness of what just happened in california.

I swear, if Obama and a democratic congress can't deliver federal civil unions within the next four years, I am not voting for Obama for re-election. Fuck change. Gay people aren't doormats you can use to help win an election and then forget like Clinton did.

This is absolutely awful.

Posted by olechka | November 5, 2008 10:10 AM
9

oops, didnt mean to post twice

Posted by olechka | November 5, 2008 10:10 AM
10

@ 4:

From most accounts, we already have had a gay president -- James Buchanan -- who left office 147 years ago. I'm guessing you mean an openly gay president.

Posted by ivan | November 5, 2008 10:11 AM
11

I know he is above criticism or something, but Obama didn't help the fight against Prop 8 at all. He only said anything about it at the very end, and then it was very wishy-washy. And when he said that Prop 8 is discrimination but on the other hand marriage should only be hetereo...wtf? It's talking out of two sides of your mouth at the same time. And Obama is the one guy who might actually have swayed the African American vote. Very disappointing.

Posted by bummed out | November 5, 2008 10:11 AM
12

it's bizarre that you're talking about this. i just walked into work (in beverly hills) and sat down. the only two co-workers of mine that are in at the moment are black. we've spent weeks talking about politics, we all watched the debates together, etc. I just mentioned my shock and disgust at prop 8 getting passed. they didn't say anything and quietly went back to work.

what.

the.

FUCK.

Posted by dan | November 5, 2008 10:14 AM
13

Well, geez, Obama's been open about having to be against gay marriage because he's a Christian, so how is it a surprise African American voters in California might be swayed more by that than by any other goddam thing?

Posted by tomasyalba | November 5, 2008 10:14 AM
14

I'm so...angry. My mom said her friend's gay friends voted FOR Prop 8 because...something about wanting to be able to name their own next of kin without a romantic involvement? Some BS. My friend in NC put it best: anyone who votes for Prop 8 is a nonperson. I should bloody well think that goes double for anyone who didn't have the right to vote 80 years ago.

Posted by Kat | November 5, 2008 10:15 AM
15

African-Americans were a tiny portion of that exit poll you're citing. The margin of error is huge. Please don't take it as gospel.

(Having said that, yes, this was supremely disappointing, even if it's the smallest margin a gay marriage ban has won by yet.)

Posted by just saying. | November 5, 2008 10:15 AM
16

But how big are the *actual* numbers of AA voters in CA? Enough to change the outcome?

Posted by Balt-O-Matt | November 5, 2008 10:15 AM
17

AA voters in California weren't 'decieved' by the mormons into voting against gay marriage. they ARE that homophobic.

a constitutional amendment can be undone with another constitutional amendment. but before that's possible, there's going to have to be serious outreach to the AA community to tell them that these are your sons & daughters, that jesus loves everyone, that you know it's the right thing to do. willful ignorance isn't just confined to whites.

good luck if you want to try. you'll need it.

Posted by max solomon | November 5, 2008 10:16 AM
18

Whoa, let's not get distracted here, folks. The real, true enemy in all of this in the Mormon church, perhaps the most despicable bastion of bigotry in our country. I'm 100% in favor of personal religious freedom, but we really need to work to marginalize the influence of these people on public policy. Fuck those assholes and their fancy underpants. Fuck 'em.

Posted by Hernandez | November 5, 2008 10:18 AM
19

The anti-gay marriage bill passed overwhelmingly in Florida also... it makes Obama's election bittersweet. That people can overlook discrimination against blacks but then blatantly discriminate against gays. How disappointing.

Posted by Sleestak | November 5, 2008 10:22 AM
20

COMMENT DELETED: Threatening
We'd rather not moderate your comments, but off-topic, gratuitously inflammatory, threatening, or otherwise inappropriate remarks may be removed, and repeat offenders may be banned from commenting. We never censor comments based on ideology. Thanks to all who add to the conversation on Slog.

Posted by COMMENT DELETED | November 5, 2008 10:25 AM
21

california's vote is a big slap in the face to the millions of gays who came out for change and in full support of senator obama.

as a latino, i'm hugely surprised and disapointed that the latino vote was 53% for that bigoted prop.

i wonder how young latinos voted.

Posted by SeMe | November 5, 2008 10:26 AM
22

Yes, our real villain in this piece is the Mormon Church. But facts are facts.

Posted by Dan Savage | November 5, 2008 10:26 AM
23

Blacks are disproportionately anti-gay, and virulently so. Not all, but as the exit polls show, they are overly represented on the Yes to 8 side. All I know is that I've heard the worst anti-gay slurs directed against me from blacks and it's terribly upsetting. I wonder if that community will ever look inside itself and try to ditch the hate?

Posted by Mark | November 5, 2008 10:27 AM
24

Pam Spaulding from Pam's House Blend explains that while 70% of blacks voted Yes on 8, they only represent 6.2% of California's electorate. In fact, it was whote voters 65 and over living in inland areas that sent Prop 8 over the top.

Either way, we still have a long way to go to make inroads to these two groups.

Posted by Daniel Villarreal | November 5, 2008 10:27 AM
25

16 Words

Obama and the future United States Supreme Court.

'All Men Are Created Equal'

This won't stand.

Posted by cochise. | November 5, 2008 10:28 AM
26

Hernandez @18 is right, the true enemy is the Mormon Church.
A start locally would be creating a list of advertisers on the church owned KIRO TV and its radio stations* to organize a pressure campaign or boycott.

*I'm not sure if the radio station with the call letters KIRO is still owned by the Bonneville holding company.

Posted by mareada | November 5, 2008 10:30 AM
27

Dan, if you going to be making an issue of non-whites in Prop 8's passing, which *is* a big issue, no doubt, do *not* just focus on African Americans. There were plenty of churches from all variety of races who were suckered into the pro-8 campaign too: Latino, Korean, Chinese, etc.

However, it's not the race that's the issue. It's the CHURCH. Moreover, it's the SUBURBAN POWER OF THE CHURCHES IN CALIFORNIA.

As a native Californian, having unfortunatey grown up in a sheltered California neighborhood, the power of the suburbs have kept California from being as progressive as the New England states.

California may have been a bellwether of a lot of social issues progressing on the West side, but they've also been a bellwether of BAD FISCAL EFFECTS. Proposition 13 anyone?

At some point, when the suburbs become progressive enough, shit like Proposition 8 will no longer pass, but California's not quite there yet.

DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE, CALIFORNIA! It may take a few more years, but please just hold on.

Posted by mackro mackro | November 5, 2008 10:30 AM
28

Well this shows we need to pressure our lawmakers to make some REAL civil union laws that have the same rights and heft as marriage. The Left uses the Judiciary as their cop-out and the Right uses Referendum. France and Germany don't have gay marriage either, they have a civil partnership that homos or heteros use....that's the route the US should go ASAP. Take this "marriage" debate out of the polls and the courts and just grant the freaking rights already.

Posted by Jason | November 5, 2008 10:30 AM
29

@18: Sure, the Mormons funded the campaign. But you can't get around the fact that the demographic force that carried Prop 8 were Black voters.

If you are going to work to marginalize the influence of a religion on public policy, perhaps you should look at Black churches as well as the LDS.

Posted by Fritz | November 5, 2008 10:30 AM
30

while i understand the gay community's hurt, i must say that oversimplifying this cultural element is simply dumb. the acceptance of homosexuality by our society is growing, albeit slowly. patience! get ur zen on! i mean, on a morning like this, let's integrate our newfound optimism with our disappointment.
please?

Posted by justin | November 5, 2008 10:31 AM
31

It is extremely disappointing. Some good news, though, CT voted against changing the state constitution, upholding the recent gay marriage ruling by the state supreme court. 60/40 against. A smaller victory, but at least something.

Posted by Dragan | November 5, 2008 10:31 AM
32

Hernandez @18 is right, the true enemy is the Mormon Church.
A start locally would be creating a list of advertisers on the church owned KIRO TV and its radio stations* to organize a pressure campaign or boycott.

*I'm not sure if the radio station with the call letters KIRO is still owned by the Bonneville holding company.

Posted by mareada | November 5, 2008 10:31 AM
33

All the blacks think they can be tops now.

Posted by hohoho green giant | November 5, 2008 10:31 AM
34

I'm not sure how exactly to say what I want to say here, because this is so important.

Don't fall into that trap, Dan. Please. I hear you, and I am *furious* with the horrifying number of people who voted for discrimination. This was such a slap in the face. I want to know who to blame, and I want to hold them accountable.

But, despite the statistics, I can't get behind this kind of blanket accusation. It's an understandable reaction, but it's an oversimplification that can easily be exaggerated, misinterpreted, and do much more harm than good.

I hear you. I'm hurting for you. Don't let bigots drag you down to that level where you assume things about people based on the way they look. You're better than that.

Posted by Kari | November 5, 2008 10:32 AM
35

Any age break down in those statistics? Are the younger generation of African Americans at least a little more enlightened than their parents?

Posted by Beguine | November 5, 2008 10:32 AM
36

Dan, it has to be said. I just got a text from a friend in Cali bemoaning the Mormons. I hardly know how to break it to him that the Mormons weren't the real problem. :sigh:

Posted by violet_dagrinder | November 5, 2008 10:32 AM
37

Dan, if you going to be making an issue of non-whites in Prop 8's passing, which *is* a big issue, no doubt, do *not* just focus on African Americans. There were plenty of churches from all variety of races who were suckered into the pro-8 campaign too: Latino, Korean, Chinese, etc.

However, it's not the race that's the issue. It's the CHURCH. Moreover, it's the SUBURBAN POWER OF THE CHURCHES IN CALIFORNIA.

As a native Californian, having unfortunatey grown up in a sheltered California neighborhood, the power of the suburbs have kept California from being as progressive as the New England states.

California may have been a bellwether of a lot of social issues progressing on the West side, but they've also been a bellwether of BAD FISCAL EFFECTS. Proposition 13 anyone?

At some point, when the suburbs become progressive enough, shit like Proposition 8 will no longer pass, but California's not quite there yet.

DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE, CALIFORNIA! It may take a few more years, but please just hold on.

Posted by mackro mackro | November 5, 2008 10:32 AM
38

I find the fact that Prop 8 passed to be INCREDIBLY sad. My mind cannot wrap around the fact that so many people are willing to deny an entire group basic human rights. It hurts to see California go backwards instead of forwards, and it hurts to know that many people will be hurt by this amendment. However, I am more hopeful than I can ever remember being because of the other results of the election. If we can elect an African American President, if Washington can vote in favor of Death with Dignity, if we can make so much progress, then we can win here, too. This amendment is not set in stone; it CAN be overturned. So let's all keep hope in our hearts and continue to fighting tirelessly! This battle is not over, and all is not lost.

Posted by Lor | November 5, 2008 10:36 AM
39

Well this shows we need to pressure our lawmakers to make some REAL civil union laws that have the same rights and heft as marriage. The Left uses the Judiciary as their cop-out and the Right uses Referendum. France and Germany don't have gay marriage either, they have a civil partnership that homos or heteros use....that's the route the US should go ASAP. Take this "marriage" debate out of the polls and the courts and just grant the freaking rights already.

Posted by Jason | November 5, 2008 10:36 AM
40

@18: Sure, the Mormons funded the campaign. But you can't get around the fact that the demographic force that carried Prop 8 were Black voters.

If you are going to work to marginalize the influence of a religion on public policy, perhaps you should look at Black churches as well as the LDS.

Posted by Fritz | November 5, 2008 10:37 AM
41

stop making excuses. the mormon church didn't pull the levers. homophobes did.

Posted by max solomon | November 5, 2008 10:37 AM
42

Dan, if you going to be making an issue of non-whites in Prop 8's passing, which *is* a big issue, no doubt, do *not* just focus on African Americans. There were plenty of churches from all variety of races who were suckered into the pro-8 campaign too: Latino, Korean, Chinese, etc.

However, it's not the race that's the issue. It's the CHURCH. Moreover, it's the SUBURBAN POWER OF THE CHURCHES IN CALIFORNIA.

As a native Californian, having unfortunatey grown up in a sheltered California neighborhood, the power of the suburbs have kept California from being as progressive as the New England states.

California may have been a bellwether of a lot of social issues progressing on the West side, but they've also been a bellwether of BAD FISCAL EFFECTS. Proposition 13 anyone?

At some point, when the suburbs become progressive enough, shit like Proposition 8 will no longer pass, but California's not quite there yet.

DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE, CALIFORNIA! It may take a few more years, but please just hold on.

Posted by mackro mackro | November 5, 2008 10:38 AM
43

What blanket accusation? I cited the exit polling data. And all I said was...

I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.

Racist gay white men? Scum. But not as a big a problem as homophobic blacks are for gay Americans, black and white.

The ridiculous homophobia in the African American community has to be acknowledged and confronted. This vote gives us a nice snapshot of it, and an opening to address it. And who would benefit most from confronting and overcoming homophobia in the African American community? Black men and women who are gay or lesbian.

Posted by Dan Savage | November 5, 2008 10:39 AM
44

I hope there are several lessons we learn from this.

Prop. 8 would not have passed if it weren't for the churches. As "sfglamazon" said in one of the sfgate.com threads:

"Should the worst come to pass and Prop Hate IS enacted, all voters must urge Congress to pass an amendment to the Federal tax code that prohibits religious organizations from the political activism, fundraising and campaigning we saw from the Yes on 8 side. Not only is it unfair that those organizations use, without tax penalty, the funds intended for charitable work, it is also unfair that the donors can write off on their tax returns those donations that helped take away our rights. Money that *we* contribute to EQCA, HRC, etc. intended to fight for our rights is not tax deductible, so the playing field is very uneven. WE MUST DEMAND OUR POLITICIANS HAVE THE GUTS TO PENALIZE THESE CHURCHES THAT EXPLOIT THEIR TAX FREE STATUS TO IMPOSE THEIR "MORALITY" ON EVERYBODY."

I think one of the lessons of Obama's election is that we should stop asking if we are asking for too much, too fast, and start demanding.

We need to learn from the black community and respect ourselves a hell of a lot more. People laugh at us because we still let them, and they don't respect us because we still don't respect ourselves.

We need to make the word "fag" the "f-word".

We are smoking, drinking, drugging, and barebacking ourselves to death due to internalized homophobia, and, no doubt depression from being a downtrodden minority.

Meanwhile we argue about showing some skin or sex at pride events. Fuck that. Do they worry about offending us? Many of them would *kill* us if they could. We need to start demanding things because we have inherent rights to exist, to be safe, and be loved the way we are born.

No more Mr. Nice Guy.

Posted by Mike | November 5, 2008 10:39 AM
45

I too am completely heartbroken at the Prop 8 results. I donated, I convinced friends to donate, and I live in Illinois.

But I am encouraged by a couple of things. Proposition 22, which defined marriage as a one man, one woman thing and was approved by CA voters eight years ago, won with 61% of the vote. Just eight years later, here we are at barely 51% opposed with herculean efforts and gazillions of dollars spent by the other side, including their out of state mormon evil helpers. That ten percentage point loss in support in only eight years is very encouaging to me right now, devastated though I am. As another commenter pointed out, another constitutional ammendment can undo this one.

I am so, so sad this this victory isn't ours, but the change is coming. MLK said, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice." We're just going to have to screw up our courage and try again. We're worth it. Our families are worth it.

Posted by greendyke | November 5, 2008 10:40 AM
46

Pam Spaulding from Pam's House Blend explains that while 70% of blacks voted Yes on 8, they only represent 6.2% of California's electorate. In fact, it was whote voters 65 and over living in inland areas that sent Prop 8 over the top.

Either way, we still have a long way to go to make inroads to these two groups.

Posted by Daniel Villarreal | November 5, 2008 10:40 AM
47

I am part of the 30% that does support gay rights. Not tepidly, but completely and actively. I am as ashamed of African Americans as I am Proud of Obama. But please, let's not make this into blacks vs gays warfare, because it isn't. It's a battle against ignorance.

I have no excuses, and I make none for anyone - I am simply hopeful that those words from Obama, repeated for four years from the white house will change minds.

Think of the defeat at the ballot eight years ago. Think of the progress that has been made. All while we had no help or leadership from those in power. Change has arrived to America, but it's only at the door, over the next four we will usher it in. And I will fight along side you for your rights as equal citizens of our republic.

Posted by Alice AN | November 5, 2008 10:43 AM
48

This was seriously a big downer for me after the high of Obama winning.

My only hope for the future is the fact that 61% of people under 30 voted no on Prop 8.

Posted by boxofbirds | November 5, 2008 10:43 AM
49

I wonder what would happen if gays and their allies decided that if the state of CA has decided that the gays aren't full people, then CA doesn't need their taxes. War resisters have pioneered the way to withold income tax without getting thrown in jail, so why not use it?

Yes, I think a big lesson is that more education needs to be done in (the newly mormon state of) CA and everywhere.

I also suspect that there are some repercussions for the mormons that have yet to play out - something like a significant number of mormons speaking up within the church about whether christians should be promoting discrimination and bearing false witness - like in enough numbers that the church can't excommunicate them all without taking a financial hit, resulting in a new level of dialogue in the church.

Posted by I am your Mother | November 5, 2008 10:46 AM
50

california is like a microcosm of the US, we are so big and so diverse that things like GWB and prop 8 happen dispite our better selves.

Posted by Sarah | November 5, 2008 10:48 AM
51

Thanks, Alice. No warfare. Just an acknowledgment that we have a problem here.

Posted by Dan Savage | November 5, 2008 10:48 AM
52

I blame white people more.

Posted by Bellevue Ave | November 5, 2008 10:48 AM
53

I, too, am broken hearted about the passing of Prop. 8.

But, it's not the end. When they go to annul all those marriages, doesn't that leave the door open for those couples to fight in court or what have you? I know that's likely doomed to fail, but, at least it would draw further attention to the issue, show people how rediculous it is to protect marriage by forcefully dissolving marriages.

Maybe now that Obama has won, he will come out in support of homosexual rights. My fingers are crossed.

Posted by josiethefiend | November 5, 2008 10:49 AM
54

Christian hate past prop. 8.

Lots of black people are conservative christians.

In their minds they've done a righteous thing.

Doesn't matter that the same hate filled type arguments were used on them in the past to suppress their aspirations.

Christian hate will be with us for a long time to come.

The GLBT have come a long way in the last 40 years. The work isn't done yet.

Posted by jeffg166 | November 5, 2008 10:49 AM
55

Hold the phone!

There are about 3 million early votes, absentee votes, and provisional ballots that have NOT been counted yet. We could still pull this thing out.

Posted by Pope Buck I | November 5, 2008 10:49 AM
56
Are the younger generation of African Americans at least a little more enlightened than their parents?

Yes.

And the real reason that black people overwhelmingly supported the measure is that they're more religious than pretty much any other voting bloc.

Many of them would *kill* us if they could.

Who would do that exactly? Let me clue you in on something. Heaping hatred on African Americans is not the way to turn them to your side. How fucking dare you accuse them of wanting to kill you. Fuck you.

Posted by keshmeshi | November 5, 2008 10:50 AM
57

Well...

Now that Barack has the White House, Nancey has the House and Harry has a huge majority in the Senate. Surly we will see the repeal of DOMA & DADT and the federal recognition of gay marriage rights (making all these silly little state bans irrelevant) in the first 100 days. Right? I mean there is nothing to stop them now. Right?

Wake up!!!

Regardless of whether its gentle (Democrats) or rough (Republicans) we're all still just getting fucked. Personally, I prefer it kinda rough...

Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me | November 5, 2008 10:51 AM
58

Also challenge KIRO's station licenses next time they are up for renewal. Bonneville(Mormon Church holding company) owns broadcasting stations across the West so other communities can organize against them as well.

Posted by mareada | November 5, 2008 10:51 AM
59

yes, having one minority politically reject another minority, especially when the latter worked so hard for the former, is a difficult pill to swallow.

Kind of reminds me of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act fight last year when prominent gay writers were willing to push transsexuals under the proverbial bus for their own political gain.

Kind of.

Posted by Kate | November 5, 2008 10:52 AM
60

Passing Prop 8 is not a bad thing for gay Californians only. It's a travesty for anyone who cares about constitutions. It's a stupidity that will affect the revenue streams of many small businesses in the state, and as a result tax revenues. And it's horrifying for those of us who can see through the deceit, exploitation of primitive fears, and knowing lies that the Yes on 8 campaign pumped through the state over the last few months.

Posted by Claire Ramsey | November 5, 2008 10:59 AM
61

It's truly a shame that this initiative didn't fail. The way the Prop is written doesn't even get to the crux of the problem: Discrimination.

Of course black folk broke heavily against gay marriage: the neighborhood is hardly a bastion of progressivism. It's a place where the word punk is still about the worst thing you can be called. You have to make a grass roots effort in the community to reverse this trend, and I am unaware of any effort to do so.

Another swing vote was the group are people who don't want homosexual couples to be discriminated against but value the idea of the "traditional" definition of marriage even though that isn't really rational if you know the history of "traditional" marriage. Well, history is boring for most folk out there in the great big world (explains a lot...2 term Dubya???). Again, grassroots there. Probably easier than converting the community, but it will take more time.

It will happen in our lifetime. Alot of Mormons were pissed about the "Yes" activism. I know Jake's parents are. I'm a distant cousin of Phyllis, so my rational dismay at this decision is confused with deep sadness. It will take perseverance and smart discourse to remedy this injustice, so don't get too depressed about this. Justice will be done-even here in Texas.

Posted by Ben Lyon | November 5, 2008 10:59 AM
62

This was a punch in the gut.

It's more important that Obama won
than that Prop 8 was defeated. I'm
happy that he won even though I
was sure he wouldn't.

Positively, CA moved from 60% antigay
to 52% antigay over about 8 years.

Negatively, we have probably about 15-20
years to wait for equality in the USA.

Just to throw some more oil on the fire,
if Clinton had been the nominee
the same exit poll says Prop 8
would have failed:

voted for yes no
obama 60 32 68
mccain 38 84 16

total 51.12 46.88

voted for yes no
clinton 56 29 71
mccain 37 79 21
no vote 5

toatl 45.47 47.53

Also, the godless were anti-8 9-1.

Bring on the Obama SCOTUS appointments.

Posted by chicagogaydude | November 5, 2008 11:02 AM
63

it does make me happy, however, that the Knights of Columbus who were huge backers of Prop 8 are based in New Haven, CT and will have to live with same sex marriages for at least the next 20 years in their home state!

Posted by um | November 5, 2008 11:09 AM
64

I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one who felt (at least somewhat) guilty about my initially racist thoughts this morning upon reading the CA exit polling information. I literally uttered words in my private office that I never would normally say. The deceit that the Mormon church perpetrated is unspeakable. And the astounding response to the issue by other historically persecuted minorities leaves me breathless--and very angry.

Posted by TXGayGuy | November 5, 2008 11:09 AM
65

Sad that this type of thing can pass even in California. That said, to those of you waiting for Pres. Obama's SCOTUS appointment to fix this, don't get your hopes up. Pres. Obama will most likely only get to replace the current liberal members of the court (Stevens & Ginsberg). Unfortunately, GWB was able to pack the court with not only conservative nut jobs, but young conservative nut jobs. The court will keep it's current political make up for the next 20-30 years.

Posted by sympathetic in montlake | November 5, 2008 11:15 AM
66

So maybe someone can explain this? Why does the general public have this positive image of Mormons, in particular that Mormons don't try to push their intolerant ideas on others? Prop. 8 isn't the first time they've bankrolled an anti-gay campaign; they've done this in Alaska and Hawaii as well. It seems that Jehovah's Witnesses, who actually DO stay out of anti-gay political campaigns, draw bigger ire from the progressive crowd. I don't get it.

Posted by Totem | November 5, 2008 11:18 AM
67

I know prop 8 is heartbreaking, but please god don't make it a gays vs. blacks thing. That's **exactly** the sort of thinking that gets us into this mess.

Let's face numerous things: African-Americans are generally socially conservative voters right now. But look at the history of social movements post-civil rights: besides smaller, special groups geared towards people of color, African Americans have vastly lower outcomes and outreach than their white counterparts. This is true in LGBT rights, environmentalism, feminism, anti-war movements, you name it. I'm not sure that anyone has ever really looked at the pervasive, systemic bias that even us good progressives follow in our work or opinions. We are insulated, and our movements uniformly come from a white, liberal, educated, secular, middle class perspective.

The white racist gay guys out there may not have just passed prop 8, but everyone has let them and their much better intentioned but similarly blinded liberal white counterparts ignore communities of color. Those guys, and us, set the standard, the culture, and the direction of LGBT community. Nobody seems to really have invited anyone else to the party, except as a special interest.

Dan, I adore you, but did you go to black churches, to projects, to community centers, to block parties, and try to really expand the prop 8 fight to a universal movement? Do you know anybody who did? Well, I didn't either. The mormons and the fundies, however, did. (On a related note, Obama did.) They may have lied and manipulated, and gotten prop 8 based solely on fearmongering hate, but they made a strong pretense of actual respect for Christian belief, and they fucking noticed that we weren't even trying to see out of our population box.

We are running a white movement with white values and expectations, and there is very little respect for a black Christian community and belief. It's very sad that this is indeed the cost. But it's in our court, please don't go down that road.

Posted by izzy9 | November 5, 2008 11:18 AM
68

I sent money to No on Prop 8, and I'm pretty stunned by the outcome. I do think it is good to get homophobia out in the open. Discussing and working it through is how people come to a better understanding. But getting people to that place-- to empathize--is complicated, especially when it comes to those with a religious affiliation. Remember that confrontation alienates people. For some people that is okay because you know you'll never change their minds. But for those who you want to come around, get them to listen and reason with you. Then, maybe we'll get to a place where people will see the light.

Posted by Madashell | November 5, 2008 11:18 AM
69

It seems clear that the Bradley Effect has been decisively replaced by the Ellen Effect.

Posted by honor | November 5, 2008 11:19 AM
70

To repeat, it's a reminder that there is plenty more work to do. I'm sorry that other religious groups worked against this proposition but I'm here to tell you there are lots of us who are religious who --know-- deep in our hearts that gays deserve every last civil right as everyone else; that Prop 8 equals injustice, and it's wrong. People are slowly changing their minds, and they will continue to do so as they see more gay couples who are out. You can chalk this up to a skillful and deceitful ad campaign, and even so, please take heart that it's is a slim victory. That means over six million voters support gay rights in California (assuming the accuracy of the 13.6 million voter turnout estimate). The next generation of voters will be more tolerant; we're already seeing this trend, so it's only a matter of time.


Posted by Shannon | November 5, 2008 11:21 AM
71

Kiro is owned by Bonneville International. But I can't find any record of Bonneville donating to Prop 8. I've been googling for the past 30 minutes. If they did donate, Kiro is fucked up.

Posted by daisy | November 5, 2008 11:21 AM
72

Thank you for making Prop 8 into a race issue.

Black America doesn't owe you or any other gay person shit!

Posted by Are you any less racist if you are gay? | November 5, 2008 11:24 AM
73

I went to bed (finally) overjoyed-Obama- and have been crying off & on all morning-Prop 8. I've never even been on this site but I needed some words on this tragedy.
Thanks #25 I think I found some hope in your post.
I can't believe that farm animals in CA now have more freedoms, before you EAT THEM, and gays have less, WTF CA?
Well, at least Obama must be the first Pres-elect to give a shout out to gays in his acceptance speech. I heard that.

Posted by happy/sad/happy/sad | November 5, 2008 11:27 AM
74

I went to bed (finally) overjoyed-Obama- and have been crying off & on all morning-Prop 8. I've never even been on this site but I needed some words on this tragedy.
Thanks #25 I think I found some hope in your post.
I can't believe that farm animals in CA now have more freedoms, before you EAT THEM, and gays have less, WTF CA?
Well, at least Obama must be the first Pres-elect to give a shout out to gays in his acceptance speech. I heard that.

Posted by happy/sad/happy/sad | November 5, 2008 11:27 AM
75

Why the hell should we do outreach to the black community? Because the black community did outreach to the white community in the 60s?... Didn't happen. Lets look at what they did do and use that as a model...

Has Obama made a statement about Prop 8's passage?

Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me | November 5, 2008 11:28 AM
76

"Seventy percent of African American voters approved Prop 8, according to exit polls, compared to 53% of Latino voters, 49% of white voters, 49% of Asian voters."

Exit polls. I agree the black community has a huge homophobic population and it needs to be addressed, but this:

"Who voted for Yes on 8 is clear now, as exit polls show 70% of blacks, (with black women at 74%) voted for the amendment. That's about 20 points higher than any other racial group. But the blame needs to be put into perspective - blacks represent only 6.2% of of California's population. There's a lot to discuss in the post-mortem regardless of the outcome."

Negates this: "I do know this, though: I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color."

I'm sorry.

Blacks are the biggest problem for gays? At 6.2% of the electorate (when speaking of CA). Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Posted by hunh? | November 5, 2008 11:29 AM
77

To #74:

Did I miss something here? Are California farm animals allowed to marry now? Are gays in California being forced to live in dark crates before going to slaughter?

It's one thing to be against Prop. 8, quite another to compare it to a completely unrelated ballot issue.

Posted by Totem | November 5, 2008 11:32 AM
78

So if we didn't let them vote it would have failed. If they are comfortable voting down our rights, maybe we should call for a couple of votes on their rights...

Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me | November 5, 2008 11:35 AM
79

I just want you all to know that this is one practicing Christian who sent money to No on Prop 8. I was heartbroken to see it passed in CA, and to see similar propositions passed in FL and AZ, and the adoption proposition in AR. I don't know how any church that can profess the Love of Christ can support something that is so discriminatory.

For the record, my denomination (which is a mainline Protestant denomination) did not get invovled in politics at all, beyond encouraging its members to be aware of what is happening both domestically and globally. No voting guides (which I know the Catholic church puts out every year - I used to be part of their tribe), no encouragement to support or not support ballot resolutions, and referenda, nothing along those lines at all. Not all of us Christians believe it is our place to impose moral standards on the rest of the world.

Posted by Sheryl | November 5, 2008 11:36 AM
80

I've been clenching my tiny fists in impotent rage all day.

Posted by Lavode | November 5, 2008 11:37 AM
81

Haven't lived in California for a decade now but I grew up there and my heart is from there. I'm heartbroken and embarrassed.

Posted by onion | November 5, 2008 11:38 AM
82

Given that blacks make up 6.2% of the electorate, and assuming that 13.6 million people in california voted (those are the current estimates), that means that blacks cast 843,200 votes. Using the 70-30 split that blacks said they voted in favor of prop 8 (which we can assume is conservative since most people don't like to admit that they are homophobic/racist/etc), blacks voted for Prop 8 by a margin of 337,280 votes, which would pretty much make Prop 8 a dead heat. If Prop 8 narrows at all, one could fairly say that this time, blacks are the ones who wrote discrimination into the constitution. This is, by no means, saying that ALL blacks did this or that other groups are not responsible for this travesty, just that this was a major group of the electorate that swung heavily in favor of proposition 8.

Posted by Cook | November 5, 2008 11:40 AM
83

Only real solution to this is Federal action. It's what was necessary to extend civil rights to racial minorities.

If, with such firm control over the entire federal government, the Democrats don't give us a gay civil rights bill then you will know what they really think of us.

What the fuck is there to stop them but themselves. Isn't that real change, real hope.

Don't hold your breath though...

Obama has already made it clear that he opposes marriage equality and that he thinks our rights should be second class at best.

Lap dogs eat what's thrown to them and are expected to be glad to have it.

Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me | November 5, 2008 11:42 AM
84

"So if we didn't let them vote it would have failed. If they are comfortable voting down our rights, maybe we should call for a couple of votes on their rights..."

Who is "them" and "our"?

Posted by hunh? | November 5, 2008 11:44 AM
85

Yougottabekiddingme: you're getting pretty scary. It's deeply sad.

Posted by izzy9 | November 5, 2008 11:49 AM
86

I've been struggling with how I feel about this all morning. It definitely killed my initial presidential buzz.

I know that Obama didn't really go to bat for fighting Prop 8, but hearing him include "gays and straights" in his address to the nation last night brought me to tears. I felt included.

I can only hope that this push for inclusion across all lines will continue to permeate the country so that we are ready the next time around.

Posted by DelMarquis69 | November 5, 2008 11:52 AM
87

@83 & etc: you're really getting frightening now. This sort of hatred is what I was afraid of.

Posted by izzy9 | November 5, 2008 11:53 AM
88

@65 Maybe in 7 years. Scalia and Kennedy are 72. (Breyer is 70. Souter is 69.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

Posted by chicagogaydude | November 5, 2008 11:57 AM
89

I just saw this on noonprop8.com Is there still a chance?????


Nov 05, 2008

Statement by No on Prop 8 Campaign on Election Status
Roughly 400,000 votes separate yes from no on Prop 8 – out of 10 million votes tallied.

Based on turnout estimates reported yesterday, we expect that there are more than 3 million and possibly as many as 4 million absentee and provisional ballots yet to be counted.

Given that fundamental rights are at stake, we must wait to hear from the Secretary of State tomorrow how many votes are yet to be counted as well as where they are from.

It is clearly a very close election and we monitored the results all evening and this morning.

As of this point, the election is too close to call.

Because Prop 8 involves the sensitive matter of individual rights, we believe it is important to wait until we receive further information about the outcome.

Geoff Kors
Executive Committee
NO on Prop 8

Kate Kendell
Executive Committee
NO on Prop 8

Posted by R. | November 5, 2008 11:59 AM
90

@82

“If Prop 8 narrows at all, one could fairly say that this time, blacks are the ones who wrote discrimination into the constitution.”

Right, because only Blacks at 6.2% of the electorate voted for Prop 8 and 30% voted against? I’m still not buying this. What am I missing here? What percentage of the electorate do whites make up in CA, who voted for it at 49%?

Posted by hunh? | November 5, 2008 12:00 PM
91

Any time you look at behavior of African Americans without contrasting that with behavior by wealth you are going to get a lot of false data. Many racists push their agendas this way. It is frustrating and it is sad, but it is likely more economic than anything else. Similar to Dan's post a few days ago about people selling their stuff to pay for their mortgages and being for prop 8.

Posted by kinkade | November 5, 2008 12:02 PM
92

I don't think this is the time in history when we should look with scorn on any one group as the reason we lost. I think we need to put our energy in finding ways to undermine this law, as in passing Partnership laws and other rights laws. Let's not use this time to create divisions. We can turn this into a positive further down the road if we refocus. I know some don't want to hear this but I think it's right. Nobody dislikes what has been done more than me. But how we conduct ourselves in the face of crushing disappointment says a lot about us.

Posted by Vince | November 5, 2008 12:05 PM
93

I just saw this on noonprop8.com Is there still a chance?????


Nov 05, 2008

Statement by No on Prop 8 Campaign on Election Status
Roughly 400,000 votes separate yes from no on Prop 8 – out of 10 million votes tallied.

Based on turnout estimates reported yesterday, we expect that there are more than 3 million and possibly as many as 4 million absentee and provisional ballots yet to be counted.

Given that fundamental rights are at stake, we must wait to hear from the Secretary of State tomorrow how many votes are yet to be counted as well as where they are from.

It is clearly a very close election and we monitored the results all evening and this morning.

As of this point, the election is too close to call.

Because Prop 8 involves the sensitive matter of individual rights, we believe it is important to wait until we receive further information about the outcome.

Geoff Kors
Executive Committee
NO on Prop 8

Kate Kendell
Executive Committee
NO on Prop 8

Posted by R. | November 5, 2008 12:05 PM
94

@87

You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet....

But Why worry?...

Won't the new Holy Trinity (Barack, Harry & Nancey) just fix this at the federal level?...

I mean, they ARE on the side of the gays, right?

Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me | November 5, 2008 12:07 PM
95

As much as I am dismayed by the irony of the numbers here- the fact remains that basically half of everyone is guilty of this, plus an additional marginal percentage of black voters. If there were a few less white homophobic piece-of-shit voters in California, then it wouldn't have mattered. And thankfully, based on demographic trends and the small margin of Prop 8's victory, a higher number of the people of any race who voted for this will be dead by the next election, and a whole crop of less homophobic voters will have reached 18.

Posted by oljb | November 5, 2008 12:11 PM
96

Hold on a sec, Dan. The exit polls also said that 80+% of people who go to church weekly voted for Prop 8. What percentage of black voters go to church? It's probably high. If you break out the numbers based on church attendance, are blacks any more likely to vote for Prop 8 than nonblacks? To answer this we need better access to the exit poll data set than CNN gives.

Posted by CCSea | November 5, 2008 12:11 PM
97

@92

Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

It's time to try new tactics. This shit ain't working.

Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me | November 5, 2008 12:12 PM
98

White men, 35% of the CA electorate, voted overwhelmingly for prop 8. Blame them if you're going to start blaming people, not black voters who make up 6.4% of the electorate in CA.

Also, exit polls are ridiculously unreliable, especially when breaking down small demographic groups. Only a few districts are polled. The irresponsible LA Times probably only polled a total of 10 black people who live next to a fundamentalist church to get that 70% figure.

Posted by jrrrl | November 5, 2008 12:15 PM
99

@ 15 and @ 1

This is pretty true, especially when you account for how inaccurate the exit polling was compared to the actual results. That same CNN poll had Prop 8 going down by 4 points last night. I woke up to find out it wasn't the case.

Posted by Kim from California | November 5, 2008 12:16 PM
100

It is a great disappointment that prop 8 passed. I truly think that regrdless our Country is ready to open there minds to gay marriage and even though this is a huge set back I believe it will not be the final word. We all need to band together gay/stratight who cares! Lets all keep attention on this issue till we can break down that wall....LOVE TO ALL PEOPLE! BTW Dan you rock! Thanks for being out there standing up for these issues we all care about so deeply!

Posted by Paige | November 5, 2008 12:16 PM
101

I actually think this is one of the most offensive things I have seen so far. And let me say, before anything else, I worked on the No on 8 campaign for 5 months, my place of employment was on the front lines, we stood at polling places all day and many of us donated everything we had to this campaign. I am crushed and saddened just as much as anyone else, but my dis pair has never turned into scapegoating, and that's where the problem with this blog lies.

You are a rich white man. I think you are attempting to make white people into saviors for NOT being racist when it shouldn't be an issue. White people didn't perform an act of god by electing a black president and they shouldn't be viewed as pioneers for not being racist in 2008. I am not excusing homophobia, on any level throughout any community, however I don't think a white person is being progressive or a revolutionary by not being racist and being ok with voting for a black president does that make sense? I think racism is a little ridiculous and while I totally see where you are coming, and I am pissed as well, I think it is giving white people a little too much kudos for not being assholes and holding onto racist ideals. I think its more disturbing that other oppressed people, regardless of their race or ethnicity, decided to play into a system that keeps them down as well. I mean I am super proud of New Mexico and Ohio and states that typically go for the moderate to conservative white male candidate, however I think I feel more like "it's about fucking time" then "wow every white person deserves a pat on the back for being ok with a black president". It's also a little shameful that it has taken this long, I mean if you look at what black people have gone through, and a 400 year struggle, its just insane that it took until 2008 to do something about it that doesn't discount my total anger about prop 8, I mean I am crushed over it, but I just think you, a member of a privileged majority, are stepping a little out of bounds. You should be focusing on oppression backing oppression not on black people returning a favor of some kind.

Posted by JSpinner | November 5, 2008 12:17 PM
102

I am part of the 30% of Blacks that voted against 8, bought signs against 8, posted them all over my neighborhood, and changed all of my online facebook and mypace posters to be no on 8 signs. The problem is not Black people, the problem is regious nuts who don't believe in a separation of church and state...who believe that their religious beliefs trump others civil rights. That Blacks ar overwhelmingly religious is true...but they most certainly aren't the only ones. At 6.2% of the electorate they didn't carry the vote. As has been pointed out, the White people in California share a good deal of the burden for this discriminatory vote. But lets not stop there...why not focus on the Asian population too? I saw tons of yes on 8 signs in front of the Korean and Chinese churches in my area...there are twice as many Asians than Black people in California and a good deal of them are religious too. And we haven't even mentioned the Latino population...the second largest group in the state!

Posted by clarity | November 5, 2008 12:18 PM
103

Izzy9 - I don't think comment 83 is about hatred at all.

This morning on the bus someone next to me was looking at a newspaper with a headline about Prop 8 not passing. I wondered why that was OK and how different our reactions would be if it read something to the effect of not allowing black people (or any other minority or protected class) to marry.

Gay people are treated as second class citizens - and that's OK. Where is the gay Rosa parks that will cause the next phase of this revolution?!

Posted by PussyDukinHinres | November 5, 2008 12:18 PM
104

The existing gay marriages in CA are legal, binding contacts. Despite the homophobia on the right, I can't see very many conservative judges annuling so many legal contracts on the grounds of a ban that was cast *after* the contracts were signed. It would open a HUGE can of worms in the business world.

Which then highlights the inequity of those married while it was lawful to do so and those who could not marry after the ban. That is flagrent discrimination and unlikely to survive a supreme court challenge. It'll probably end up in a 4-3 split, but it will end.

Yes, this is a terrible thing - but, as my history professor always said, "Things Flower Before They Die." Discrimination is ugly and it will do some very ugly things in the next few years; that is because it is on it's way out.

Posted by Schweighsr | November 5, 2008 12:19 PM
105

I actually think this is one of the most offensive things I have seen so far. And let me say, before anything else, I worked on the No on 8 campaign for 5 months, my place of employment was on the front lines, we stood at polling places all day and many of us donated everything we had to this campaign. I am crushed and saddened just as much as anyone else, but my dis pair has never turned into scapegoating, and that's where the problem with this blog lies.

You are a rich white man. I think you are attempting to make white people into saviors for NOT being racist when it shouldn't be an issue. White people didn't perform an act of god by electing a black president and they shouldn't be viewed as pioneers for not being racist in 2008. I am not excusing homophobia, on any level throughout any community, however I don't think a white person is being progressive or a revolutionary by not being racist and being ok with voting for a black president does that make sense? I think racism is a little ridiculous and while I totally see where you are coming, and I am pissed as well, I think it is giving white people a little too much kudos for not being assholes and holding onto racist ideals. I think its more disturbing that other oppressed people, regardless of their race or ethnicity, decided to play into a system that keeps them down as well. I mean I am super proud of New Mexico and Ohio and states that typically go for the moderate to conservative white male candidate, however I think I feel more like "it's about fucking time" then "wow every white person deserves a pat on the back for being ok with a black president". It's also a little shameful that it has taken this long, I mean if you look at what black people have gone through, and a 400 year struggle, its just insane that it took until 2008 to do something about it that doesn't discount my total anger about prop 8, I mean I am crushed over it, but I just think you, a member of a privileged majority, are stepping a little out of bounds. You should be focusing on oppression backing oppression not on black people returning a favor of some kind.

Posted by JSpinner | November 5, 2008 12:19 PM
106

It is a great disappointment that prop 8 passed. I truly think that regrdless our Country is ready to open there minds to gay marriage and even though this is a huge set back I believe it will not be the final word. We all need to band together gay/stratight who cares! Lets all keep attention on this issue till we can break down that wall....LOVE TO ALL PEOPLE! BTW Dan you rock! Thanks for being out there standing up for these issues we all care about so deeply!

Posted by Paige | November 5, 2008 12:20 PM
107

White men, 28% of the CA electorate, voted overwhelmingly for prop 8. Blame them if you're going to start blaming people, not black voters who make up 6.4% of the electorate in CA.

The only large demographic groups to oppose prop 8 were white women, Hispanic women, and Asian women, so blame everyone except them.

Posted by jrrrl | November 5, 2008 12:20 PM
108

It is a great disappointment that prop 8 passed. I truly think that regrdless our Country is ready to open there minds to gay marriage and even though this is a huge set back I believe it will not be the final word. We all need to band together gay/stratight who cares! Lets all keep attention on this issue till we can break down that wall....LOVE TO ALL PEOPLE! BTW Dan you rock! Thanks for being out there standing up for these issues we all care about so deeply!

Posted by Paige | November 5, 2008 12:24 PM
109

I am part of the 30% of Blacks that voted against 8, bought signs against 8, posted them all over my neighborhood, and changed all of my online facebook and mypace posters to be no on 8 signs. The problem is not Black people, the problem is regious nuts who don't believe in a separation of church and state...who believe that their religious beliefs trump others civil rights. That Blacks ar overwhelmingly religious is true...but they most certainly aren't the only ones. At 6.2% of the electorate they didn't carry the vote. As has been pointed out, the White people in California share a good deal of the burden for this discriminatory vote. But lets not stop there...why not focus on the Asian population too? I saw tons of yes on 8 signs in front of the Korean and Chinese churches in my area...there are twice as many Asians than Black people in California and a good deal of them are religious too. And we haven't even mentioned the Latino population...the second largest group in the state!

Posted by clarity | November 5, 2008 12:24 PM
110

The "gay" movement of this country is only about white gay people.

It is nauseating the way white gays leap on the back of the civil rights movement. You guys pick it up when you need it drop it when you don't.

Racism and homophobia are not the same. Dan and Log Cabin Rebuplicans have proven you can be both.

The very idea that gays are owed something because a black man is president is ridiculous and stupidly racist.

Obama is president because he is motherfucking qualified. He is clearly the best man for the job. Obama dosen't owe anyone.

Please stop pretending that gay is a culture ruled and dictated by whites. You have no clue about gay African Americans.

Please continue to pretend that all the world loves gay people except for blacks.

Please continue to pretend elected leaders are just waiting on blacks to come around.


Posted by Ren | November 5, 2008 12:28 PM
111

The "gay" movement of this country is only about white gay people.

It is nauseating the way white gays leap on the back of the civil rights movement. You guys pick it up when you need it drop it when you don't.

Racism and homophobia are not the same. Dan and Log Cabin Rebuplicans have proven you can be both.

The very idea that gays are owed something because a black man is president is ridiculous and stupidly racist.

Obama is president because he is motherfucking qualified. He is clearly the best man for the job. Obama dosen't owe anyone.

Please stop pretending that gay is a culture ruled and dictated by whites. You have no clue about gay African Americans.

Please continue to pretend that all the world loves gay people except for blacks.

Please continue to pretend elected leaders are just waiting on blacks to come around.


Posted by Ren | November 5, 2008 12:33 PM
112

Not all people of color agree with you Ren. That is all.

Posted by PussyDunkinHines | November 5, 2008 12:40 PM
113

Fuck you Ren. This isn't about gays being "owed" something from anyone. This is about the fact that the population of California voted to take away the civil rights of millions of people last night. A lot of people are complicit in this travesty, and a disproportionate number of these people are Black, like it or not.

Posted by oljb | November 5, 2008 12:41 PM
114

No matter how blatantly reality shows itself, people like response 110 will continue to lie. That 70% of one group could vote that way while other groups were nowhere near as bigoted is putrid and disgusting, especially when the bigoted goup has a history of bigotry directed against them. Stop running from the facts.

Posted by Zoltan | November 5, 2008 12:41 PM
115

I'm not giving money to another politician who publicly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. Since that is Obama's position, he can do without my $4600 next time around. My new litmus test.

I may even start voting for Republicans. Really, what's the difference for gays?

Posted by new litmus test | November 5, 2008 12:47 PM
116

I agree that we can't let this divide us. Getting minorities to fight amongst themselves is a Rovian tactic, and it is far too easy. We need to keep fighting to make sure the message of civil rights for EVERYONE is the central argument here. As long as this debate is framed in religious terms, we lose.

Posted by Lavode | November 5, 2008 12:48 PM
117

I've been hearing that there is already legal action against the amendment on the grounds of it being unconstitutional, but there is nothing more than tiny blurbs about it. Anyone else have better info?

Posted by marielynn | November 5, 2008 12:49 PM
118

I'm looking forward to seeing hell packed with Mormons for financially backing such a horrible act. Apparently they enjoy their history of being a persecuted people. So if that's what they enjoy, I say lets give them what they deserve.

Posted by Jonathan | November 5, 2008 12:50 PM
119

I'm not giving money to any politician who publicly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. It's my new litmus test. It isn't a lot, but Obama can do without my $4600 in 2012.

Enough. Time to stop enabling under this notion that the democrats are that much better for gays than the republicans. Who gave us the defense of marriage act again?


Posted by newlitmustest | November 5, 2008 12:52 PM
120

What's withe dozens and dozens of duplicate postings? Have the anti-gays hacked SLOG? It sure is annoying.

Posted by I am your Mother | November 5, 2008 12:53 PM
121

Zoltan @114 - you are still missing the big picture. Would you like me to draw you a Venn diagram? The reason that most Blacks voted Yes is because they are religious and they are religious at a much higher rate than other races.
The problem is also the Mormon Church and all of the money it threw into misleading ads that claimed that churches would be harmed by No on 8 votes. The ads inspired fear and sadly it worked.

Posted by clarity | November 5, 2008 12:53 PM
122

We can't let this divide us. It is far too easy to get minorities to fight amongst each other. It is a Rovian tactic, and it is dispicable. We need to continue to make this a fight about civil rights. When it is framed as a religious debate, we lose.

Posted by Lavode | November 5, 2008 12:55 PM
123

What's withe dozens and dozens of duplicate postings? Have the anti-gays hacked SLOG? It sure is annoying.

Posted by I am your Mother | November 5, 2008 12:56 PM
124

I think yesterday I became just a little bit racist against black people. On Monday, I was color blind.

Actions have consequences.

Posted by PDuff | November 5, 2008 12:59 PM
125

The truth is, blacks suffer uniquely from homophobia. That's just plain ole truth. The same people who cried yesterday also had no problem with denying an entire minority group equal civil rights.

Right now, as a black American, I am struggling to deal with the fact that the same structural organization that had so much to do with Barack's victory last night, the black church, also has so much to do with the continued seperate-but-equal treatment of gay families. It's really abhorrent.

Personally, I've been too silent too often in not resisting the homophobia and apathy of my black family and friends. I won't be any longer. Because although a black man may be president, until civil rights equality includes black lesbians and gays, we're not done yet.

Posted by AlanaD | November 5, 2008 1:01 PM
126

What kills me about this is hearing Obama say that "marriage is between a man and a woman." If misogyny laws had been reintroduced by Constitutional Amendment after the California Supreme Court decision, who knows if Obama would ever have been born? I want to celebrate his victory, and I worked hard for it, with maximum contributions, canvassing, and telephoning. But I already feel betrayed by him and he has not even taken office yet. We will live with this defeat every day, day in and day out, for a long time.

Posted by Bill | November 5, 2008 1:03 PM
127

I admire you for saying the hard thing that most of us are too chicken shit to acknowledge.

Posted by Steve | November 5, 2008 1:05 PM
128

I admire you for saying the hard thing that most of us are too chicken shit to acknowledge.

Posted by Steve | November 5, 2008 1:05 PM
129

@124 if an exit poll changes your view of an entire race then you were a bit racist to begin with.

And let's not be let down by Obama just yet @126 Barack Obama did vote against a Federal Marriage Amendment and opposed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996. He does seem a bit conflicted about Gay Marriage but hey sometimes it takes people awhile. When the first Gay Marriage proposition came up in CA a few years ago I was going to church and thought the pastor might be right - I have since grown smarter and realize the religion is the biggest modern evil.

Posted by clarity | November 5, 2008 1:12 PM
130

never mind that the black population in california is relatively small ... never mind that the anti gay movement is largely a white evangelical/mormon movement that also funds it ... and never mind that the mainstream white gay community consistently fails to build coalition with people of color ... the No on 8 people failed to build a grassroots movement in California ... and it depended on a terrible marketing campaign that made gays invisible ...

Posted by Tom in L.A. | November 5, 2008 1:19 PM
131

What's withe dozens and dozens of duplicate postings? Have the anti-gays hacked SLOG? It sure is annoying.

Posted by I am your Mother | November 5, 2008 1:21 PM
132

This is an education problem. The less educated a segment of the population, the more homophobic. And like any other social ill related to education level, the effect on blacks is more pronounced. You want less black homophobes? Educate more blacks.

Don't try and pin it on black culture. Black culture is a direct outcome of the black socioeconomic situation.

Posted by MattG | November 5, 2008 1:21 PM
133

"Everyone's a little bit racist." - Avenue Q

Posted by Lavode | November 5, 2008 1:21 PM
134

never mind that the black population in california is relatively small ... never mind that the anti gay movement is largely a white evangelical/Mormon movement that also funds it ... and never mind that the mainstream white gay community consistently fails to build coalition with people of color ... the No on 8 people failed to build a grassroots movement in California ... and it depended on a terrible marketing campaign that made gays invisible ...

Posted by Tom in L.A. | November 5, 2008 1:23 PM
135

Any age break down in those statistics? Are the younger generation of African Americans at least a little more enlightened than their parents?

Posted by Beguine | November 5, 2008 1:26 PM
136

never mind that the black population in california is relatively small ... never mind that the anti gay movement is largely a white evangelical/Mormon movement that also funds it ... and never mind that the mainstream white gay community consistently fails to build coalition with people of color ... the No on 8 people failed to build a grassroots movement in California ... and it depended on a terrible marketing campaign that made gays invisible ...

Posted by Tom in L.A. | November 5, 2008 1:32 PM
137

What's withe dozens and dozens of duplicate postings? Have the anti-gays hacked SLOG? It sure is annoying.

Posted by I am your Mother | November 5, 2008 1:34 PM
138

Dan,

As a black gay man, who donated to the No on Prop 8 (when I didn't have the funds to do so), I am just as pissed of at that 61-70% percent of the Californian black electorate that voted for Obama and then spat on gay marriage as you are Dan.

But I'm more than a little disappointed in you. In addition to the Mormon backing of the issue, low levels of income and education levels, religion, age all play a factor in the vote of African-Americans (and exit polling didn't show all of the correlations between those variables). GLBT culture doesn't seem to engage African-Americans. It doesn't celebrate diversity as much as it could and in fact outright shuns it oftentimes. It's not a handful of bigots, as you claim so much as institutional. Perhaps if black gay people didn't feel so marginalized by both communities we belong to, we could better serve as a bridge.

There's enough blame to go around. It's just sad such a great day is tainted by African-American hypocrisy.

Posted by Carlos | November 5, 2008 1:34 PM
139

Dan,

As a black gay man, who donated to the No on Prop 8 (when I didn't have the funds to do so), I am just as pissed of at that 61-70% percent of the Californian black electorate that voted for Obama and then spat on gay marriage as you are Dan.

But I'm more than a little disappointed in you. In addition to the Mormon backing of the issue, low levels of income and education levels, religion, age all play a factor in the vote of African-Americans (and exit polling didn't show all of the correlations between those variables). GLBT culture doesn't seem to engage African-Americans. It doesn't celebrate diversity as much as it could and in fact outright shuns it oftentimes. It's not a handful of bigots, as you claim so much as institutional. Perhaps if black gay people didn't feel so marginalized by both communities we belong to, we could better serve as a bridge.

There's enough blame to go around. It's just sad such a great day is tainted by African-American hypocrisy.

Posted by Carlos | November 5, 2008 1:38 PM
140

Hi,
I'm a straight, African American woman from NYC, and I just want to say I'm terribly sorry about this. This is extremely disappointing, but don't give up. Yesterday proved that sometimes it takes an extremely long time to change peoples views, but it can ACTUALLY happen.

This is in no way an excuse, but I think many African Americans are just so afraid of this issue, ironically enough, because they have had much of their rights taken away. I think black men in particular can sometimes feel pretty threatened by anything they deem emasculating, and this is why they don't support gay rights. It comes from being treated as something less than a man. I know it's stupid, but I think that this is what this is mainly about. Plus many African Americans grew up with alot of "Christian" influence and you know where that can lead you!!!!

We have to fight this problem in the same way racism has been fought--Education and enlightment. So this fight was lost, but a significant one was won. I think it's time to just redirect the focus and fight harder on this issue. Just don't give up!

Posted by Robin | November 5, 2008 1:38 PM
141

It's the Christians, really. I've never understood how African-Americans could embrace the church of their oppressors, but many have, and they were told they were doing Jesus' will.

I reported a local church to the IRS because they had "Yes on 8" signs on their building. I bet nothing comes of it, but I let the church know that I was reporting their illegal activity.

Ugh, my joy at Obama's win was punched in the stomach by this. We all drank champagne at lunch at work today, but our elation was subdued because of Prop. 8. So much more fighting still to do.

Posted by BonzoGal | November 5, 2008 1:39 PM
142

Look--the point is this: most gays vote democratic. Gay Americans and their families and friends who care about gay civil rights donated millions of dollars and thousands of hours to Obama's campaign. We did this even though we knew from the beginning that Obama was on record as opposing gay marriage. And we were aware of the problems that gay issues caused Democrats in the past. So, we didn't ask for anything. We didn't ask for a promise to allow gays to serve openly in the military. We didn't ask for a pledge to support gay marriage. We just shut up and opened our wallets and donated our time.

Of course, the 70% of blacks that voted for Prop 8 weren't solely responsible for its passage. That said, it really sucks to be told that civil rights are ok for some groups and not others.

For me, gay marriage isn't about Ellen DeGeneris, George Takei or Dan Savage. It's about the rights of my brother, who has been married, religiously only, to his partner for almost 10 years and has two black kids. And my brother, one of my nephews and I spent the last 4 days doing nothing but volunteering for the Obama campaign. That's why I'm angry.

Posted by Jenn | November 5, 2008 1:40 PM
143

Look--the point is this: most gays vote democratic. Gay Americans and their families and friends who care about gay civil rights donated millions of dollars and thousands of hours to Obama's campaign. We did this even though we knew from the beginning that Obama was on record as opposing gay marriage. And we were aware of the problems that gay issues caused Democrats in the past. So, we didn't ask for anything. We didn't ask for a promise to allow gays to serve openly in the military. We didn't ask for a pledge to support gay marriage. We just shut up and opened our wallets and donated our time.

Of course, the 70% of blacks that voted for Prop 8 weren't solely responsible for its passage. That said, it really sucks to be told that civil rights are ok for some groups and not others.

For me, gay marriage isn't about Ellen DeGeneris, George Takei or Dan Savage. It's about the rights of my brother, who has been married, religiously only, to his partner for almost 10 years and has two black kids. And my brother, one of my nephews and I spent the last 4 days doing nothing but volunteering for the Obama campaign. That's why I'm angry.

Posted by Jenn | November 5, 2008 1:45 PM
144

Look--the point is this: most gays vote democratic. Gay Americans and their families and friends who care about gay civil rights donated millions of dollars and thousands of hours to Obama's campaign. We did this even though we knew from the beginning that Obama was on record as opposing gay marriage. And we were aware of the problems that gay issues caused Democrats in the past. So, we didn't ask for anything. We didn't ask for a promise to allow gays to serve openly in the military. We didn't ask for a pledge to support gay marriage. We just shut up and opened our wallets and donated our time.

Of course, the 70% of blacks that voted for Prop 8 weren't solely responsible for its passage. That said, it really sucks to be told that civil rights are ok for some groups and not others.

For me, gay marriage isn't about Ellen DeGeneris, George Takei or Dan Savage. It's about the rights of my brother, who has been married, religiously only, to his partner for almost 10 years and has two black kids. And my brother, one of my nephews and I spent the last 4 days doing nothing but volunteering for the Obama campaign. That's why I'm angry.

Posted by Jenn | November 5, 2008 1:45 PM
145

@112- Thank you for pointing that out. I didn't mean to imply that I speak for people of color.

@113 and 114- Both of your responses support what I am saying.

The white gay movement of this country has reduced itself to a sick racist joke.

Black people HAVE TO support gays because they were oppressed? Are you guys actually listening to yourselves?

Whine about the battle if you like but if you want to win the war you might want to reconsider your race tactics.

The discounted African-American civil rights movement was about housing, employment and education.

Why is gay marriage being tacked on to the Civil Rights struggle now? Because the gay white movement picks up civil rights when they need it and drop it when they don't.


Posted by Ren | November 5, 2008 1:50 PM
146

Amazing that the Mormon's, who have had their own issues with what many consider morally objectionable mating habits (multiple underage wives in some subsets), would come out so hard against gay marriage. (All puns intended)

Posted by Peter | November 5, 2008 1:50 PM
147

My BLACK_GAY brothers can always depend upon my support. The straight ones can go fuck themselves. And no more "respect" from me for the church. Tax the fuckers. NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION!

Posted by Chuck | November 5, 2008 1:53 PM
148

@112- Thank you for pointing that out. I didn't mean to imply that I speak for people of color.

@113 and 114- Both of your responses support what I am saying.

The white gay movement of this country has reduced itself to a sick racist joke.

Black people HAVE TO support gays because they were oppressed? Are you guys actually listening to yourselves?

Whine about the battle if you like but if you want to win the war you might want to reconsider your race tactics.

The discounted African-American civil rights movement was about housing, employment and education.

Why is gay marriage being tacked on to the Civil Rights struggle now? Because the gay white movement picks up civil rights when they need it and drop it when they don't.


Posted by Ren | November 5, 2008 1:53 PM
149

I just called the mormon church headquarters in Salt Lake City and expressed my deep disappointment in the church for funding this discriminatory proposition. I spoke at length with a church media spokesperson. It was very cathartic. The phone number for the LDS church office building was easily found with a quick google search.

Posted by silverlaker | November 5, 2008 2:00 PM
150

Black people don't oppose Proposition 8 more than white people. Fundamentalists hate faggots a hell of a lot more than white people, and black people trend fundamentalist. There's a difference.

Posted by JPL | November 5, 2008 2:07 PM
151

Along with the Mormons, I'd also add the Roman Catholic bishops and the Knights of Columbus. They pumped lots of money and pressure on Catholics to vote against it. The more I see how organized religion is corrupting our elective process, the more I think that tax exempt status should be taken away from them.

Posted by Don in KS | November 5, 2008 2:17 PM
152

As a New Yorker who donated money to No on 8, my joy at Obama's win last night is tempered by the heartbreaking news that Prop 8 evidently passed.

It is painfully ironic that African-Americans opposed marriage equity at such high levels. The most effective of the No on 8 ads that I saw was the one that replaced "gay marriage" with "interracial marriage" in the statements of both supporters and opponents; I wish that had been played in every black church in California.

I fully understand the anger that Dan and others feel. But I agree with the posters here who point that out as the next step. It is the essence of right-wing politics to set minority groups against each other: African-Americans against gays, against Jews, against Hispanics. The way to overcome that is by reaching out to members of those groups--when necessary, by responding to their fear and ignorance and hate with love. Not vapid love, either, but agape as Martin Luther King described it: "understanding, redeeming goodwill for all."

And have no doubt: in the end, we will overcome.

Posted by dajafi | November 5, 2008 2:18 PM
153

This is making me so sad. It's clear we have a whole lot of work to do to help people understand all the things our movements have in common -- and there is a lot. It was not that long ago that being discovered to be gay meant you lost your job, your family, and quite possibly your life. That is still true in a lot of places in this country. Alice Huffman of the California NAACP understands this and has been so supportive of gay rights, but it seems to be the churches that are driving opinion on issues like this.

Posted by Chris | November 5, 2008 2:21 PM
154

Dear Dan

I'm a big fan of your show, and am really sorry about Prop 8. But I'd urge you not to calm down and keep fighting. Lashing out and provoking racism is not the answer, regardless of exit poll statistics.

I do think gay marriage equality will happen eventually, but will take time. A lot of conservative racial/ethnic minorities need more exposure to gay issues.

Soon.


Posted by tpg | November 5, 2008 2:39 PM
155

Dear Dan

I'm a big fan of your show, and am really sorry about Prop 8. But I'd urge you to calm down. Lashing out and provoking racism is not the answer, regardless of exit poll statistics.

I do think gay marriage equality will happen eventually, but will take time. A lot of conservative racial/ethnic minorities need more exposure to gay issues.

Soon.


Posted by tpg | November 5, 2008 2:40 PM
156

The same black men who voted for Proposition 8 will be the same men who will go on the "down low" and deceive their wives, their families; and the latino men who voted for Prop 8 are filled with "machismo" and deny their attraction for same sex involvement, will deceive as well . . . Maybe they are just looking for a way to feel better about themselves, a way to feel better than those "gays" who are open, and honest, and hard working wage earners who provide a good "love-filled" home for themselves and their "families" but who, too, are are sinful and perverted . . . PULEASE!!!!!

Posted by Buddy | November 5, 2008 2:48 PM
157

The same black men who voted for Proposition 8 will be the same men who will go on the "down low" and deceive their wives, their families; and the latino men who voted for Prop 8 are filled with "machismo" and deny their attraction for same sex involvement, will deceive as well . . . Maybe they are just looking for a way to feel better about themselves, a way to feel better than those "gays" who are open, and honest, and hard working wage earners who provide a good "love-filled" home for themselves and their "families" but who, too, are are sinful and perverted . . . PULEASE!!!!!

Posted by Buddy | November 5, 2008 2:51 PM
158

Governments need to get out of the business of recognizing marriages performed by churches, and let churches decide who can get married and who can't (for their own individual churches, not for everyone).

For purposes of social and tax benefits (or detriments), any couple desiring to constitute a family unit should be able to register - separately from religious marriage ceremonies - and receive all benefits now conferred on married couples.

Take the stupid word "marriage" out of the argument.

Posted by John Fowler | November 5, 2008 2:55 PM
159

The Yes on 8 ad quoting San Francisco mayor Gavin Newsome saying that LGBT marriage was going to happen ``whether you like it or not'' was probably the turning point of the campaign, the sound bite that infuriated the bigots. But Newsome was right -it is going to happen. The numbers were so close. And the other parents at my kid's (progressive Los Angeles) school this morning were as concerned about the loss as they were elated about Obama, which is to say a lot. The marketing of 8 as a pro-family measure was as infuriating as it was brilliant, and the No on 8 campaign was impossibly muddled. (I am still scratching my head as to how Yes on 8 ads managed to completely dominate political blogs, including the progressive ones, over the last weekend of the campaign.)

But it seems particularly unhelpful to target African-Americans as the scapegoats, although the numbers weren't great. The counties passing the initiative by the biggest margins were the whitest counties in California. The number that seems most important is the 86 percent of Republicans that voted for the measure. Everything else is commentary.

Posted by j gold | November 5, 2008 2:59 PM
160

You know what...FUCK YOU! I am one of those Black people that voted against Proposition 8 and I argued fiercely with many people over why it should be defeated. But I am sick and got damn tired of people acting like we are the big bad boogeyman. I WISH Black people had all this omnipotent power that you and other people seem to believe that we had so that maybe our situation in this state wouldn't be so effed up. It is nothing but pure COWARDICE to lash out at 15% of the population and say "YOU, YOU ARE TO BLAME". Latinos are over 30% of the population...where is your "Latino Homophobia" post? Whites are over 30% of the population , where is your "White Homophobia" post? Yeah that's what I thought!

Listen, I am disgusted that Prop 8 passed, but it is shit like this that contributes to the problem. Reading this really makes me wonder if perhaps by breath was wasted on even trying to reach out and get people to see that regardless of people's personal beliefs on marriage they should vote against discrimination (and by the way everyone I made that argument to changed their mind and voted against the Prop). Now I must ask myself...why should I break my neck to defend racists? Why should I care about your struggles when as soon as the going gets tough, you are going to be quick to demonize me? Good luck garnering support from a community you so easily demonize!

Posted by YOUARERACIST! | November 5, 2008 3:07 PM
161

Link to CNN's exit polls is http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1

With the polls just closing, 8 had 53% NO and 47% YES. The real results, when they started coming in, did not match. They showed YES around 58%, if I remember correctly. With all but the absentee ballots counted, on the 5th, the exit polls seem to match the actual votes.

Lots of interesting demographics. Need to learn from them and see what messages to send to which groups to prepare for the next time.

Posted by John | November 5, 2008 3:08 PM
162

Link to CNN's exit polls is http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1

With the polls just closing, 8 had 53% NO and 47% YES. The real results, when they started coming in, did not match. They showed YES around 58%, if I remember correctly. With all but the absentee ballots counted, on the 5th, the exit polls seem to match the actual votes.

Lots of interesting demographics. Need to learn from them and see what messages to send to which groups to prepare for the next time.

Posted by John | November 5, 2008 3:10 PM
163

Link to CNN's exit polls is http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1

With the polls just closing, 8 had 53% NO and 47% YES. The real results, when they started coming in, did not match. They showed YES around 58%, if I remember correctly. With all but the absentee ballots counted, on the 5th, the exit polls seem to match the actual votes.

Lots of interesting demographics. Need to learn from them and see what messages to send to which groups to prepare for the next time.

Posted by John | November 5, 2008 3:11 PM
164

What Dan says makes perfect sense. No marginalized community should choose to vote in legislation that openly discriminates against another. And to say that it's not fair to pick on whites, well whites have been the privileged class in this country. They don't know discrimination.

To try and figure out what the numbers would have been if blacks or latinos had voted like whites is not the point. The point is that no people from marginalized communities should have voted for this amendment, PERIOD. AMEN. It should have been shot down overwhelmingly in other marginalized.

It is about time that someone starts saying it plain and simple. All the politically correct bullshit just leads us to dead-ends like this one.

Posted by Parkers_Back | November 5, 2008 3:39 PM
165

I love reading your posts Dan but I'm really upset with this one. I am African-American and gay and I, of course, voted No on 8. I don't see how your comments do anything but point fingers to divide people more. And you're basing your opinion on percentages...if you knew the actual numbers of the black voters that voted this compared to other races then you'd see this post is ridiculous. And as Carlos pointed out earlier, the gay culture isn't overwhelmingly open to different races...we do our own discriminating with our twisted standards of who/what is beautiful. The Prop 8 issue is a sad one but inciting more discrimination is not the answer. Hopefully this is one of those many posts you mention doing while you're intoxicated and incoherent..

Posted by Gerald | November 5, 2008 3:40 PM
166

"Religious organizations that support Proposition 8 include the Roman Catholic Church], Knights of Columbus, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) a group of Evangelical Christians led by Jim Garlow and Miles McPherson, American Family Association, Focus on the Family[and the National Organization for Marriage Rick Warren, pastor of Saddleback Church, California's largest, has also endorsed the measure. The Bishops of the California Catholic Conference released a statement supporting the proposition. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has publicly supported the proposition and encouraged their membership to support it, by asking its members to donate money and volunteer time. The First Presidency of the church announced its support for Proposition 8 in a letter read in every congregation. Latter-day Saints have provided a significant source for financial donations in support of the proposition, both inside and outside the State of California. About 45% of out-of-state contributions to Protect Marriage.com has come from Utah, over three times more than any other state."

This is your enemy. Don't trust exit polls taken when many of these same groups taking them were angry with African-Americans about Obama beating their Christian Right coalition ie Sarah Palin. I think they are pitting one group against the other.

Posted by Thelea Draganic | November 5, 2008 3:52 PM
167

homophobia is a misnomer. it's not FEAR of homosexuals, it's disgust or repulsion. you need to come up with a better derogatory term for people who are intolerant *chuckle*

Posted by tripplethrendo | November 5, 2008 4:07 PM
168

160: Latinos are over 30% of the population...where is your "Latino Homophobia" post? Whites are over 30% of the population , where is your "White Homophobia" post?

According to the exit polls, a slim majority of Latinos voted against Prop 8, and a slim majority of whites voted against Prop 8. Meanwhile, seventy percent of African American voters voted for Prop 8.

I'm sorry that your community is so homophobic, friend. Maybe you can work to change that.

Posted by Tim Hulsey | November 5, 2008 4:08 PM
169

I find it sad that so many people in California who voted for Obama also must have voted for Prop 8, and if the exit polls are correct, many black voters did. However . . . politics is a 2-steps-forward 1-step-back-game, and I never thought I'd be legally married to my husband of 18 years even 10 years ago. Things are changing, and the fact that Prop 8 won by a small margin just means we are making progress. Those who wish to shame us back into non-existence have already lost; they just haven't figured it out yet. If I feel that we will have Federal and State marriage benefits in 25 years, it will probably happen in 12.

Posted by Michael W, Sebastopol, CA | November 5, 2008 4:14 PM
170

A gay racist is a gay liberal who's been mugged by Proposition 8.

Posted by honest | November 5, 2008 4:17 PM
171

I haven't read the billion comments on here so this may have been mentioned, but check out Pam Spaulding's commentary over on pandagon.net, it's pretty thoughtful, bittersweet, and generally good. She points out that while Dan's right about the big numbers of blacks voting for prop 8, they were a small statistic, and not big enough to be a make-or-break demographic.

Posted by Charles | November 5, 2008 4:18 PM
172

It seems that campaign strategy and tactics matter when the margin is as close as it is. I know that "Yes On 8" knocked on my door, but "No On 8" did not. I don't think they visited black and Latino neighborhoods to engage us in a discussion. Don't assume that we can not be swayed. To assume that would be racist.

Posted by Max | November 5, 2008 4:25 PM
173

The last story I read mathmatically stipulated that, if the AA turnout hadn't increased from 6% of the electorate in 2004 to 10% in 2008, based on the 70/30 split (75/25% among AA women), Prop 8 would not have passed.

Posted by Gene | November 5, 2008 4:26 PM
174

There is probably a disproportionate amount of homophobia in the African American community. But that is something that must be harder for African American LGBT people than for me as a white LGBT woman. HIV is spreading faster among African Americans than any other ethnic group and I would venture it's largely because of homophobia (see CNN article in September). So let's not fight each other over this and find ways to work together across lines of race, SES, and yes, even religion. It is extremely discouraging. But we need each to move forward on this. I agree that Obama does not go far enough for marriage equality. But he is right that we need each other and must work together. Blessings - L

Posted by Lora | November 5, 2008 4:26 PM
175

I voted for Obama, and yet--as I suspected--when it comes to opposing antigay discrimination, Obama has already shown he'll likely be no better than Clinton was, now more than fifteen years ago. Obama dodged the Prop 8 issue, big time. Of course he'll be sure to occasionally throw "gays" into his standard line about "inclusion", whatever the fuck that means. Clinton did that too. Hell, Sarah Palin did as much in the VP debate. Just goes to show how empty those sort of words have become.

As for the black community, well, I AM FUCKING DONE listening to their complaints about race discrimination. America has elected it's first black President, courtesy of 60 million+ Americans, myself included. From this second forward, I don't 'em the time of day.

Posted by Dan | November 5, 2008 4:30 PM
176

It is not racist. It boils down more to religion. I'd be willing to bet that whites are far more likely to be agnostic/atheist than minorities (just a guess). Fine. I don't care. I'm gay and don't want to get married. Period. Can't we just acknowledge that there is a significant amount of bigotry in the traditionally Democratic, socially conservative, largely ethnic and yes, religious, portion of the Demoratic base?

Posted by Gene | November 5, 2008 4:31 PM
177

Blacks are and were too small a majority to make Prop 8 pass. Didn't help, but neither did bigots like Doug Manchester (look him up).
I'm mad, but what I'm really mad at are the handful of internet posters who claim to have supported 8, and follow up with "but I'm not a bigot or anything" and "I have lots of gay friends."
...
My favorite however, is the one guy that voted for Prop 8 because he "didn't want his daughter to learn about gay marriage in school." 'Cause you know, your overwhelming support has insured gay marriage will NEVER come up as a topic of classroom discussion.
Don't blame blacks or Latinos or... it's a right-wing trick to wedge the blue parts of this country in preparation for 2012.
And while I'm less than thrilled about levels of support expressed by certain elected officials, the overall picture looks better now than it did under W.

Posted by Agent of Chaos | November 5, 2008 4:38 PM
178

I have to respectfully disagree. 1.5 million Obama voters, roughly 25% of the total in CA, voted for Prop 8. Assuming that the percentages are correct 70% of AA voters people voted for Prop 8, 30% against. Some figures I read show that support among AA women was 75-25%. Just assuming the 70/30 split...I'd figure that, if turnout among AA's hadn't nearly doubled from 2004 to 2008, Prop 8 wouldn't have passed.

Posted by Gene | November 5, 2008 4:46 PM
179

I am elated at the democratic sweep. I voted for Obama because he was the best candidate at a time when America needs greatness more than ever. Not because of his color, that was the supreme bonus. I hope racists across the nation are choking(finally) on this victory.
Its too bad, but human nature often looks for that someone who has to be at the bottom of the totem pole. Ironic that they felt the need to step on the gays while voting their guy into office. Now they've arrived and we can call them on this bullsh!t. Thanks to all those bigoted African American Prop 8 supporters for keeping bigotry and unfairness a fact for our community in California. Hail to the African American bigots who torpedoed equality this time around. Lets just start calling it what it is first of all. Then we can ask these "Godly" people why after their own history they want to pick up the bigots torch? It is bigotry to deny a group of people their rights. In a multicultural non-sectarian society there really is no justification for defining the law based on what your pastor tells you. Didn't the church advocate and condone genocide and slavery for a very long time? Other famous church beliefs include a flat earth, earth as the center of the universe (shouldn't it have been Gd At that center?), inquisition, torture and death for non-believers, witch burning, such enlightened beliefs. Mormons used to believe the way to heaven and eternity was polygamy but they wanted to be a state so they dropped that tenet. Conveeeeeenient. Now they want to be the marriage police since their first version didn't pass muster for "decent" Victorians. What a malleable text the Word of Gd seems to be for these religions. All these firm beliefs met their religious doom when society couldn't reconcile them with reality anymore. Rather than loose market share religions changed with the times. But I digress... We need to do more education and outreach to force these backward lookers to catch up to the new century. And to make them realize that this bigotry of theirs can no longer be tolerated. Surely they can be brought around to realize how toxic and ungodly bigotry can be no matter what the justification. LGBTs, its time for some community organizing. We've seen how well it works. Shine a light on everything and don't ever stop speaking about it until it is fixed. Even if it takes us 140 years.

Posted by Craig | November 5, 2008 4:48 PM
180

"Just assuming the 70/30 split...I'd figure that, if turnout among AA's hadn't nearly doubled from 2004 to 2008, Prop 8 wouldn't have passed."

And if my grandparents had never met I wouldn't have been born. Saying that the majority of African-Americans is the reason Prop 8 passed is scapegoating pure and simple. It may be a fact, but it distorts the issue.

Posted by Carlos | November 5, 2008 4:53 PM
181

How does it distort the issue? Simply because you don't want to believe it's true? You can't admit that there are bigots on the left AND right? Age and religion were the biggest factors here. Can you not accept that religion plays a large role in the lives of AA's?

1.5 million Obama voters x 90% AA = 1.35 million people
1.35 million x 70% pro Prop 8 = 945,000 people

Since Prop 8 is winning by ~500,000 votes, it's not totally out of the question to assume that the increase in turnout among AA's had something to do with Prop 8 passing.

Posted by Gene | November 5, 2008 5:14 PM
182

Another irony? On Proposition 8, the African-american community sided overwhelmingly not with a fellow member of the progressive colatition who has fought racism and voted overwhelmingly for Obama. They sided with a church (the Mormons) who just 30 years ago finally allowed blacks to marry *each other* in their temples and still today discourage mixed-race marraige. (though don't outright forbid it).

Posted by Lds Irony | November 5, 2008 5:41 PM
183

oops... to finish the though:

"... and voted overwhelmingly *against* Obama"

Posted by Lds Irony | November 5, 2008 5:44 PM
184

Numbers don't lie. I don't doubt that African Americans voted for Prop 8. As I wrote earlier, it is a tragedy. But blaming black people for the loss isn't progressive at all. It distorts the issue by making it race-specific.

Posted by Carlos | November 5, 2008 5:46 PM
185

You might win some but you just lost one.

This is a bad tactic, Mr. Savage.

Posted by Stephanie | November 5, 2008 5:55 PM
186

BUZZ KILL! Hopefully, Barack Obama will help the African American bridge the major gap they are lacking in their apparent bigotry towards gays -- bums me out!

Posted by jason | November 5, 2008 6:15 PM
187

No excuses can be made for anyone who voted yes on Prop 8. You can't just pin the blame on the Mormons or the Catholic Church for any misleading advertising BECAUSE the ballot was clearly worded: "Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry" Everyone who voted yes clearly knew they were eliminating the rights of same-sex couples. Period. The Whites knew it, the Latinos knew it and the Blacks knew it.

Posted by louie | November 5, 2008 6:25 PM
188

I am equally as frustrated and hurt by the passing of prop8, but I'm really scared that the examination of the Black vote on this is leaning towards scapegoating. hich would be sad, because that is the exact opposite of what we need.

Fisrt off, my Mother is an older Black Lady, who has nothing but good things to say about Dan Savage. And my older brother is a gay man who is loved by his family, his community and his church. I am afraid that the 70% number in California will automatically become "70% of all black people" which In my experience simply is not the case. I grew up in a Black community that accepted the Gay people in my family, in my neighborhood, and in The church. There has always been a vast difference between "The community view" and how you treat the people in your life.

I've sat in churches where the preacher said some indefensible things, while the obviously Gay choir director sat 5 feet way praising the lord. And then afterwards everybody sat down to dinner like it was no big deal. Hypocrisy, yes? but a lot more nuanced than a blanket indictment of an entire community conveys. And that goes both ways.

Yes there is a problem, but that problem isn't "Blacks hate gays" It's more that The Black community cansometimes be insular, closed minded, and socially conservative. As a progressive Black man, i often feel like I'm beating my head against a wall dealing with my own people. This doesn't mean they're my enemy.

I'm not saying this to excuse intolerance. The opposite actually. I find it ironic that Black people are celebrating Barack Obama today, but many of my own people will still look down on me for dating a woman of another race. I grew up in an environment where many of my own peers shunned me because I as more at home in the library than on a street corner. I grew up in a society where my very masculinity seemed to only fall into categories of cartoonish exaggeration, or threat.

There are many crises within the Black community that weren't solved with yesterday's historic election. Misogyny, homophobia, a degradation of the family unit, lack of community emphasis on education, lack of social mobility and cultural curiosity. These things are all intertwined, and hurt those within the community as much as anyone outside of it

To pull out one aspect of this and draw a line in the sand doesn't help. We need more understanding, not less. I'm looking forard to looking into the numbers more, but I'd be willing to bet that as with all displays of political intolerance, the 20% difference between the black vote and other groups comes from the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder,and not the top.

Tolerance comes with education, social mobility,and a vested stake in society as a whole. We will get there, nd hopefully we will get there together.

The other thing I do know is that while I have heard a lot of intolerant views from my community, I have never seen any serious attempt at spending any political capital making those views into law. Yes their views may be behind the times, and completely inexcusable, but please let's have a clear look at who used that ignorance to further their political agenda.

Posted by Mason | November 5, 2008 6:37 PM
189

Bigoted blacks voted against gay rights.
Bigoted Mormons did as well, and funded the campaign of hate.
Bigoted white Xtians are teammates of both.

When gay people (white, black or even >gulp

The intolerance must be overthrown. We gotta make these crazy bigots let us alone. Let 'em call us whatever they like. They just gotta let us be us.

So be it. I am tired of excuses for this intolerant hatred being excused. Failure to tolerate intolerance is not intolerance.

President Elect Obama's predecessor said it well - a nation divided against itself cannot stand.

We need to call bigots out for who they are. No excuses because blacks and Mormons and Xtians have historical excuses they make up for trying to control everyone else

Posted by ellipse | November 5, 2008 6:42 PM
190

Dan- you and Andrew Sullivan have to stop perpetuating this nonsense. Homophobia is found wherever religion is found; it is not about accurate to portray this as a racial issue nor is it fair to selectively look at the data.

1. african americans made up 10% of the ~10 million votes cast; with a 70/30 split, this means ~700k african americans voted for inequality. well so did ~970k latinos and ~432k asians/others; the margin we lost by is currently at ~427,000. so why not say we lost because of those asian/others? (cuz that's wrong too)

2. even if african americans voted like "enlightened" whites did, 49% yes to 51% no, we would have lost by ~220k votes.

3. what about people 65 or older? ~945k voted for inequality; white and 65 or older? ~672k voted for inequality. So is this not as much generational as about race?

4. the split between yes and no was most extreme along party lines with 81% of republicans, or ~2.27 million, voting for inequality. the number among white republicans? also 81% or ~1.86 million voting for inequality. ideology played a far more significant role than race.

i am deeply disappointed with the results of the prop 8 ballot, but i don't understand the facile logic involved in laying this at the feet of african americans; do we want to run rove's wedge politics just for old times?

if we are going to win future battles, we need to diagnose the loss properly. clearly,due to the role certain christian churches have played in african american communities, there is deep homophobia therein; the same can be said for latinos and catholicism. religion is the primary culprit here, not race, and this dovetails with the secondary culprit, republican conservatism, as evidenced by the numbers. if we want to harp on african americans because of the irony of a once legally discriminated against group supporting legal discrimination against another group, that's fine, but that will only get us intellectual kudos.

if we want to win, african american preachers like... ah rev. wright.... who welcome openly gay and lesbian members into their congregations and preach against homophobia as a form of hatred, need to be engaged... and latino pastors.... and white pastors. and predominantly white gay and lesbian philanthropic organizations and donor networks need to be more forthcoming than they have historically been when it comes to funding people of color doing anti-homophobia work in communities of color. it would also help if white gay and lesbian people would open their eyes to the racism within the lgbt community and start engaging with communities of color on points of conflict in urban areas like gentrification, employment, mass incarceration and political representation. selectively pointing fingers is not a good way to start off.

saddened but not defeated,
g.ken patton

Posted by g.ken. patton | November 5, 2008 6:51 PM
191

Robin @ 140: Thank you, for shedding a little light on the internal landscape of some individuals we will need to appeal to during our continuing struggle. I also agree that the larger victory of Obama's election is something we can look to for encouragement. Even though it will take more time, minds can - and do - change towards equality. If it happened for Obama and the African American community, it will happen for us. What this election has done is help us identify the groups of people we need to start engaging. African Americans, Latinos, Mormons and others have just "farted in the elevator" and as unpleasant and ignorant as their actions were, we must now move towards a positive, constructive engagement to confront their unacceptable views that allow such repulsive behavior. Our pain right now is expressed as anger, but we will soon transform it into determination, resolving to get back to work and start engaging the communities that need to see us in a truer, more humane light. The change will come one mind at a time.

Posted by Scott | November 5, 2008 7:15 PM
192

I just watched that "Yes We Can" clip on Youtube. And I wanna just bitch-slap everyone in it.

Posted by Dan | November 5, 2008 7:26 PM
193

I had a really nice talk with some of the people who work for a client of mine, all over 60 and several of whom are black. All of them were anti-8 folks but they all expressed bewilderment and outrage that it wasn't clear which way to vote.

I think black homophobia is a HUGE problem, but I also think that the pro-8 campaign was deceitful and full of lies (don't get me started in the anti8 =pederasty ad in Chinese!) and people were truly unclear about which way to vote for OUR side.

Finally, the No on 8 campaign sucked huge, massive donkey dicks. It sucked from start to finish, the ads were bad the coordination was bad (signed up to volunteer and never got called!) it was just awful. In some ways we deserved to lose.

Posted by Mike Friedman | November 5, 2008 7:48 PM
194

I would just like to echo what Mike Friedman #193 said, if perhaps with less coarse language. I tried to volunteer for No on 8 several times and never got a call or email about it. (I live across the country, but I would have made calls or done data entry or something.)

I also donated three times even though I have very little money. But all the campaign emails were about money -- and they were very tone deaf about the fact that not all queer people and other anti-8 folks have discretionary income to continue making financial contributions (e.g., "I'm donating 15% of my income . . ..
What are you willing to give up today so we can protect our community from this pack of televised lies: A night out? A vacation you had planned? A home improvement project?"). (The emails I got from the Task Force were much better than the No on 8 emails, fwiw.) They made it sound as if only the rich could be good foot soldiers for the cause. I found it rather alienating.

Posted by Stephanie | November 5, 2008 8:14 PM
195

I'm an African-American, straight woman and I am heart sick about this. Just devestated. I've cried tears of joy about Obama and then sadness about Prop 8. I have always been bothered by the homophobia in the AA community. In some ways our religious upbringing causes us to be as irrational as white evangelicals. I have never been tolerant of anti-gay language in my presence, but from this day foward any black homophobia will be meet by a remimder that gay and lesbian Americans voted overwhelmingly for Obama and that our community owes them a debt.
I can't apologize for all AA's, but I will do my best to shame them for supporting any sort of discrimination. To my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters of all colors please don't stop engaging the black community. You have to keep at it and remind them of the support you showed to Obama. And Dan, you don't have to pretend or apologize for how you feel.

Posted by emma | November 5, 2008 9:05 PM
196

Wow, who knew African-Americans makeup 52 percent of the population of California?

Posted by Craog | November 5, 2008 9:12 PM
197

I don't think this is a case of scapegoating at all.
It's simply a statement on the nature of discrimination/persecution in America.. Put it this way:

Gay black men have more to worry about from the homophobia of the black community than they have to worry about from the racism of the white community.

Posted by Stephen Redman | November 5, 2008 9:13 PM
198

To Stephen Redman #197: "Gay black men have more to worry about from the homophobia of the black community than they have to worry about from the racism of the white community."

I don't know how you could draw this conclusion based on exit-polling data of 240 black voters on an anti-gay ballot measure.

Posted by Stephanie | November 5, 2008 9:26 PM
199

You gotta love it, watching white liberals twist themselves in knots trying to explain why we must not blame the black community for Prop 8.

Instead, we hear that it's the fault of the "the gays" because we didn't do enough to embrace the black community, because the GLBT community is racist, because we needed to sit down and explain to the black community that it's wrong to discriminate.

Give me a fucking break.

Posted by sickofthebs | November 5, 2008 9:50 PM
200

Craog -

I know math is hard, but give it a try. If the biggest voting group (whites) basically splits the vote 50/50, then 70% of a minority group is more than enough to get you over the threshold.

Posted by sickofthebs | November 5, 2008 9:53 PM
201

64% of Catholics (30% of the voters) supported Prop 8. Of these people, 59% supported Obama. This percentage was higher than Protestants (52% supported Prop 8, even though they make up a larger portion of the electorate at 44%).

Clearly, it was both African-Americans and Catholics that were instrumental in the victory of Prop 8.

Posted by Gene | November 5, 2008 10:33 PM
202

I was thinking: Since Gay is the new Black, and Black is the new White, aren't we gays now entitled to use the "N" word? I mean referring to ourselves, of course, and to other gays.

Anyway, that's what I'm gonna do. Henceforth, I shall greet my gay friends with "Hey, Nigga!", and will direct my angriest glare at any black who refers to another as "Nigga" in my presence. I do believe we've earned this friendly epithet. Let us usurp "Nigga" and claim it as our own. We have earned it!

Posted by dan | November 5, 2008 10:55 PM
203

Did any body bother to read on the Advocate that Churches were tossing off their property the No on 8? What the HECK! Any one hear of Separation of Church and State? Isn't that conflict of interest?
Why is California allowing Voting going on inside Churches???
Read it here >> http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid64932.asp

Posted by DavidW | November 5, 2008 11:56 PM
204

Sadly, this actually does give the anti-black racists a good line. The black community had the chance to make an intelligent decision and they didn't. Oppossing prop 8 was a decision that any intelligent human could make with the simple use of logic without the need for any external convincing towards either side.

Posted by Gavin | November 5, 2008 11:56 PM
205

1. african americans made up 10% of the ~10 million votes cast; with a 70/30 split, this means ~700k african americans voted for inequality. well so did ~970k latinos and ~432k asians/others; the margin we lost by is currently at ~427,000. so why not say we lost because of those asian/others? (cuz that's wrong too)

2. even if african americans voted like "enlightened" whites did, 49% yes to 51% no, we would have lost by ~220k votes.

3. what about people 65 or older? ~945k voted for inequality; white and 65 or older? ~672k voted for inequality. So is this not as much generational as about race?

4. the split between yes and no was most extreme along party lines with 81% of republicans, or ~2.27 million, voting for inequality. the number among white republicans? also 81% or ~1.86 million voting for inequality. ideology played a far more significant role than race.

Posted by g.ken. patton | November 6, 2008 12:42 AM
206

If I hear one more time how it was the failure of the LGBT community to "engage" AA voters, "reach out" to AA voters, I'm gonna fuckin' scream. HOW? How the hell are non-black queers supposed to "engage" the homophobic, conservative, church-going AA's? That's who we're supposed to be "reaching out" to, right? How the hell is any white person supposed to do that? What, I'm supposed to make nice with Miles McPherson and ask him for equal time at his pulpit next Sunday? Everybody scolds us stupid whites for failing to engage straight, homophobic AA's without ever explaining to us just how you expect us to DO that!

Posted by J | November 6, 2008 12:53 AM
207

If any of you would have payed attention to the South Carolina Primary earlier this year then you wouldn't be gasping at this sick statistic. I live here. Obama happily, willingly, and enthusiastically sought and received the support of some of the most rabidly anti-gay black pastors in this state. And he knew it full well. Blacks here are the most homophobic group of people you'll anywhere. Well, they're tied with the Bible beaters, but whatever.

Let's see what he does for us - and I'm not holding my breath. I do have hope, but I'm not naive. He still wants to get re-elected in 2012, and he isn't going to win the red states he won this time by supporting gay rights. Screw the blacks in California and everywhere that supported that garbage - you're a bunch of stupid hypocrites.

BTW, I voted for McCain because Obama got in the gutter here and I saw it first hand. After that I couldn't stand him.

Posted by Patrick | November 6, 2008 1:05 AM
208

What I learned today:




-Despite the fact that both Catholics and Asians overwhelmingly support proposition 8, and have greater voting clout, this is the fault of Teh Black.



-There is no point in doing outreach or organizing across communities. We should just wait until black voters (and not Catholics or Asians - they're off the hook) come to their senses on their own; until then, the best thing to do is shake our fists, issue vague threats, and be real edgy and anti-PC. That'll show em.



-When I voted for Barack Obama, it wasn't because he was the best candidate by far, it was because I was doing a favor for those ungrateful black voters. See if I ever vote for the first black president ever again.



On, and last but not least, a tiny exit poll that only included (literally!) about a dozen African Americans, which GOT THE FINAL RESULT WRONG and has a margin of error probably in the neighborhood of 40%, is the undisputed truth.



In all seriousness, I didn't think I could possibly be more upset about prop. 8. Then I read this and am about as close as I've ever been in my life to giving up on trying to reach out.

Posted by Jason | November 6, 2008 1:54 AM
209
Sadly, this actually does give the anti-black racists a good line. The black community had the chance to make an intelligent decision and they didn't. Oppossing prop 8 was a decision that any intelligent human could make with the simple use of logic without the need for any external convincing towards either side. Posted by Gavin | November 5, 2008 11:56 PM


Substitute "Korean" for "Black" and you'll make about as much sense.

Posted by antigone | November 6, 2008 2:05 AM
210

It seems like we ought to be blaming individuals for their actions, not groups of people. That's just collectivism. Any one black person is not responsible for the fact that some other black person might be anti-gay.

Posted by Mark | November 6, 2008 2:27 AM
211

>> -There is no point in doing outreach or organizing across communities. We should just wait until black voters (and not Catholics or Asians - they're off the hook) come to their senses on their own; until then, the best thing to do is shake our fists, issue vague threats, and be real edgy and anti-PC. That'll show em.

To me it shows the injustice of the situation from the beginning. The minority has to convince the majority to give their rights. If one student bullies another in school, does the bullied student try to convince the bully to stop, or does he go to the teacher? Isn't this why we have a court of justice? To protect people from situations where popular vote results in an unjust law? It seems to boil down to the fact that we must learn to live in a society where there is no justice, and no rules.

Posted by Crow | November 6, 2008 2:59 AM
212

Wake up! They don't need your votes anymore. This is a stunning example of the BS "hope" that is supposedly coming our way.

Posted by James | November 6, 2008 3:51 AM
213

Hear, hear, Jason @ #208. I am extremely disappointed in my LGBT community today. Thank you for making sense and giving me hope.

I also, of course, agree with Crow @ #211. The court did exactly what it was supposed to in this situation, and constitutional rights shouldn't be put to popular vote without significant additional checks and balances. This is a very serious process problem, and I hope situations like Prop 8 convince progressives to really get out for reform in California and other states that allow constitutional amendment by popular referendum.

Mr. Savage, do you endorse the hostile, racist things some people are saying here? Since I know you have read some of these comments, please clarify that the angriest posters are misreading your position or taking things too far. You are a community leader, and I think some of your readers need some guidance from you.

Posted by Stephanie | November 6, 2008 5:02 AM
214

This is Great.
The AAs of California voted against the "basic human right"
of gay marriage (WTF?).
That's why we should all become racists now?
Give me a break.
Stop whining and get back to work, best by admitting that the supreme court strategy was a terrible undemocratic mistake.

Posted by Steeevyo | November 6, 2008 5:06 AM
215

With this Prop as with the ones in AZ and FL and with other Props limiting illegals such as in Farmers Branch TX, we are still a middle to right leaning country! Thank God!

Posted by Danny | November 6, 2008 5:36 AM
216

I wish Dan Savage would do some fucking reporting before blaming Black folks for Prop 8 not passing. The truth is, out of all that money spent on defeating this ballot measure, what little was done in the Black community was too little, too late. Read Richard Kim's piece in THE NATION about it.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20081124/kim

Posted by Kenyon Farrow | November 6, 2008 5:38 AM
217

#214 >> the supreme court strategy was a terrible undemocratic mistake.

Of course it is undemocratic, I don't see why you must state the obvious, unless you naively think that the democratic process always results in justice. If there are 100 people in a town where 20 are black and 80 are whites, and if all the whites voted against marriage for blacks, then the democratic law would be that blacks cannot marry. You can clearly see while the process is democratic, the results is unjust.

Posted by Crow | November 6, 2008 6:31 AM
218

@213: Of course I don't endorse the racist comments posted here. I stopped reading this thread, though, early yesterday afternoon; I couldn't keep up. I will be posting something else to Slog about this today, after I file my weekly "Savage Love" column. And please note: My original post described black homophobia as a big problem for all gays and lesbians, *whatever their color.* This isn't about African Americans beating up on gay white men and women; African American gays and lesbians are the ones who suffer the most from African American homophobia.

And I think it was Carlos? I have also written posts slamming the Mormon church.

More later.

Posted by Dan Savage | November 6, 2008 7:10 AM
219

Stop comparing this cause with the civil rights movement.
I think it is offensive.
No one knows you're a homosexual until you tell them.
Fight harder or better or more clever. You had my support from the very beginning and you will always have.
But stop spreading venom and anger across the board against people who you failed to convince.

Posted by Steeevyo | November 6, 2008 7:11 AM
220

We've been thrown under the bus again. To be fair, it is not just the African American community alone, but they took part in this, avidly. Will this be a turning point for GLBT-African American relations? Homophobia may still be under the radar for a lot of black people, but I think a lot of GLBT people are starting to discern a pattern.

We have allies in the black community, for sure. Ta-Nehisi Coates is one who sees commonality in our history of oppression. But it seems that many black people resent the fact that we can draw any comparison between the oppression of blacks and that of GLBT people. In that case, it's a gay thing. They wouldn't understand.

Posted by JonnyG | November 6, 2008 7:15 AM
221

#219

>> Stop comparing this cause with the civil rights movement.

Where did I compare it with the Civil rights movement? I just took an example. If you don't like the one I selected, I'll take a different one:

If there are 100 people in a town where 20 are left-handed and 80 are right-handed, and if all the right-handed voted against left-handed seating in classrooms, then the democratic law would be that left-handed seating is illegal. You can clearly see while the process is democratic, the results is unjust.

>> No one knows you're a homosexual until you tell them.

Er...so?

>> Fight harder or better or more clever.

I don't think I have the energy to continue a fight - I've pretty much lost my faith in humanity. But my point was not this; it is simply that the system is unjust. Going back to the example, do you really agree that the 20 left-handed people must convince the other 80 to obtain a right to left-handed seating? My point was that democracy does not always result in justice, and that's why the court is necessary. But the majority of humanity does not really care about justice, so they have to be "convinced" through campaigns that the just result really is the proper one. The very fact that one has to work to obtain what is rightfully theirs is extremely unjust, but apparently that's the way society is.

As Christopher Hitchens would say, "We're just half a chromosome away from Chimpanzees - and it shows!".

Posted by Crow | November 6, 2008 7:27 AM
222

>>I don't think I have the energy to continue a fight
>>- I've pretty much lost my faith in humanity.

Too bad for you... because I am just getting fired up. We've taken the wrong approach with the AA community. My partner, who is AA, doesn't see much hope that we can get through to them, anyway, at least not the way we are going. But we owe it to the community not to give up. We owe it especially to people who are black and LGBT. But maybe we need to be less conciliatory and a more confrontational about this. It is hard as a white guy to do this without being seen as attacking the black community. And having an AA partner, I get the stink eye a lot. But if we can support black LGBT people, there might be a way for them to make a difference.

Posted by JonnyG | November 6, 2008 7:49 AM
223

Nice work Dan. Unleashing the racism of privileged white gays will sure be a winning strategy. Good luck with that.


Posted by ish | November 6, 2008 8:09 AM
224

To ish, who writes: "Nice work Dan. Unleashing the racism of privileged white gays will sure be a winning strategy. Good luck with that. "

Nothing else is winning.

Posted by John | November 6, 2008 8:24 AM
225

J in #206 three ways to engage across communities is:

1) fund people of color lgbt organizations who do that work; predominantly white gay funders of gay and lesbian organizations, including gill, have underfunded black and latino lgbt groups for a very long time.

2) identify church leaders who lead congregations that are open to lgbt people and work with them to organize interfaith diaologs with clergy and other congregations.

3) launch a savvy media campaign designed by and targeting communities of color that feature many of the celebrities and political leaders who support equal rights.

white members of the lgbt community are not stupid, and the vast majority are not racist; the disconnect can be overcome with some will, some money, and some strategic unity.

Posted by g.ken patton | November 6, 2008 8:27 AM
226

Proponents of Proposition 8 were COUNTING on what they called the "Obama Effect", Dan.

Posted by Jonah Falcon | November 6, 2008 8:31 AM
227

Is there no way I can be disappointed, and angry with the black electorate in California for their lack of perspective on civil rights, while at the same time observing the lack of perspective held by many white gay males on the topic of race relations and cultural exclusivity? As someone marginalized by both groups, I do believe I have the right to not have to choose a side on this one.

Posted by Carlos | November 6, 2008 8:34 AM
228

I wrote about the exact same thing on my blog yesterday and it's SUCH a relief to see I wasn't the only one who was pissed. (And it's such a relief to see someone writing about it who has more than ten readers mostly made up of his own family members.) Thanks, Dan, for pointing out the elephant in the room that the mainstream media has completely ignored. I know we're all supposed to be rejoicing right now, but I'm so tired of people ignoring the sad irony of the overwhelming number of African Americans who don't support gay rights. Someone really should start a campaign to expose and condemn every preacher in every black community who encourages his congregation to continue to believe that discrimination against gays and lesbians is perfectly acceptable.

Posted by FrugalFag.com | November 6, 2008 9:06 AM
229

As a gay man and I did vote for the Obama/Biden ticket, I felt that O/B did absolutely nothing to help defeating prop 8. They both stated on debates, commercials, interviews that neither of them were for gay marriage, but they were agaisnt prop 8. WTF? Isn't that contradictory in some way, shape or form? I never believed either one of them with regards to this issue. Can someone please clear this up for me?

Posted by John | November 6, 2008 9:23 AM
230

After reading a lot of these comments, it seems as if african-american LGBTs aren't seen as part of the gay community. Suddenly, the old dangerous black thug stereotype has been married to the new dangerous black homophobe one. Why are African-Americans, and every other minority, looked at as this monolithic community that acts and thinks the same. The African-American community is populated with people of a variety of interests and beliefs.

I'm disappointed in your comments, Mr. Savage. Now, there's another stereotype to battle against. According to you, I look like a threat to my gay community.

Posted by Trey | November 6, 2008 10:05 AM
231

This has nothing to do with racism or equal or legal rights. God made them male and female. And for al those homosexuals out there. I feel your pain and I know about your pain. And I do care about this issue.
But the main thing is that God loves man, He loves homosexuals, busy bodies or thieves. But He doesn't like the action itself, which is sin.
Homosexuals have the right to be domestic partners and they have a partners contract if they are living together. But the institution of marriage is not allowed for everybody. You can't have a wedding with a girl at the age of 16 or with your brother or sister. There are rules for that. And this is a historical day; cause God is still answering prayers.
God delivers homosexuals all over the world. I have an acquaintance who had a gay relationship for almost 12 years. God delivered him at one day, on a powerful and impressive way. By the power of the gospel from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. All those years he believed in a lie, but God gave him a new life with a wife and a beautiful son.
Now he is bring back the gospel in the States and his former gay friends.
God is doing miracles in the gay community; this is the best thing ever what could happen for California and the world. This has nothing to do with religion. Cause faith is a gift from God for those who his Son Jesus.
Religious folks are the cause for so much fighting and pain in the world. They are practising their faith by tradition of man and ceremonies. And not according to the Bible. Please don't be offended with this. I know that many people are disappointed. But this is not about legal justice, this about righteousness and the true love of God for His people. The whole thing is twisted because of the prayers of His almighty saints. Now his judgement is flowing away from the States for a due time. Let's all pray for the New President Obama.
America needs a restoration and a divine healing from heaven.

Posted by Navavista | November 6, 2008 10:14 AM
232

This has nothing to do with racism or equal or legal rights. God made them male and female. And for al those homosexuals out there. I feel your pain and I know about your pain. And I do care about this issue.
But the main thing is that God loves man, He loves homosexuals, busy bodies or thieves. But He doesn't like the action itself, which is sin.
Homosexuals have the right to be domestic partners and they have a partners contract if they are living together. But the institution of marriage is not allowed for everybody. You can't have a wedding with a girl at the age of 16 or with your brother or sister. There are rules for that. And this is a historical day; cause God is still answering prayers.
God delivers homosexuals all over the world. I have an acquaintance who had a gay relationship for almost 12 years. God delivered him at one day, on a powerful and impressive way. By the power of the gospel from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. All those years he believed in a lie, but God gave him a new life with a wife and a beautiful son.
Now he is bring back the gospel in the States and his former gay friends.
God is doing miracles in the gay community; this is the best thing ever what could happen for California and the world. This has nothing to do with religion. Cause faith is a gift from God for those who his Son Jesus.
Religious folks are the cause for so much fighting and pain in the world. They are practising their faith by tradition of man and ceremonies. And not according to the Bible. Please don't be offended with this. I know that many people are disappointed. But this is not about legal justice, this about righteousness and the true love of God for His people. The whole thing is twisted because of the prayers of His almighty saints. Now his judgement is flowing away from the States for a due time. Let's all pray for the New President Obama.
America needs a restoration and a divine healing from heaven.

Posted by Navavista | November 6, 2008 10:15 AM
233

This is a tough one for me, and Im not excusing anything. I am very disappointed with the percentages. Still, the overwhelming majority of Yes on Prop 8 votes were cast by non-black people. So I'm not sure you can make the blanket assertion that black people are the biggest problem that has to be dealt with in confronting homophobia.

There are various aspects of anti-gay prejudice. The position on the marriage question is just one. Take a look at gay hate crime statistics. The overwhelming majority of the perpetrators are young white men.

And I have to take issue with the 'just a handful comment'. There is more than a handful.

Posted by DFS | November 6, 2008 10:18 AM
234

I meant that marriage is a invention of God and not of man. That's why not everybody is allowed to get married. Some people marry so that they can divorce later. Or they want to marry so that they can receive a passport. For such marriage should also not be allowed. I don't want to discriminate gays, but I want to encourage them to repent and seek the God's face and give their lifes to Jesus. So that He can deliver them, just like He dit by my acquaintance. If He can do it for Him and also for my two other former homosexual brothers. Then He can also do it for you. In their former ways they were true homosexuals but God was able to deliver them and He can also do it for all of ya.
Remember this thing is not about religion, but in having a true relationship with Jesus. You can compare it with a relationship that you have with your parents or with your friends.
Jesus wants to be your best friend invite Him in your heart. Give Him a chance to make things right and don't be filled with bitterness. But be filled with the Holy spirit and with joy.

Posted by Navavista | November 6, 2008 10:25 AM
235

Dan as per your own statement I assume you will ignore us here having to deal with the bomb blew up. But here goes in the hopes that you read this as the adult you claim in the sex columns you want people to be.

Fun with numbers and facts:

Here's a way to test whether the exit polls were in fact accurate:

a) What is the percentage of black population in Oregon, Oklahoma and Arizona? The answer is minimal. How did the amendments pass there without the demons that are we black folk? They must have shipped us in.

b) Here is Nate Silver of fivethirtyeight make is clear you shouldn't trust them. You are using what is essentially less than 200 African - American voters to determine what a population of millions think. Yes, there is homophobia , but guess what it's American, not black.

c) This comparator for you numerically challenged:

If you want to test whether or not the exit polls are correct, you could do an analysis of the individual voting districts to test outcomes on the percentages of no and yes votes. Why would you do this you ask? Because America still being segregated by race, including California, you could determine by district which way people voted.

I can't guarantee these numbers are correct, but here is what was done at Daily Kos. Take the example of Michigan. They passed a ban on gay marriage in 2004.

"When the anti-gay-marriage amendment passed here in Michigan, the black communities in and around Detroit pretty much reflected the same opinion as the rest of the state. Wayne county (Detroit mostly) voted 54% for the measure while statewide the winning total was 58%. Only the counties of the major universities voted against the homophobic measure. The black community is no more homophobic than the population as a whole (here in Michigan)."

This tends to suggest even your overall assumption is problematic.

d) Let's flip your argument here Dan- let's ask why the still over 50 percent (with AA voters included) voted for the measure? That would be, you know, the non racist approach. Asking why the voters voted the way they did rather than making it about a small percentage of voters.

e) Finally, regarding looking in the gay mirror:

1/2 of voting age gays in CA aren't even registered to vote
1/3 of registered gay voters didn't even vote
prop 8 is ahead by 400,000 votes 4% and just the non voting registered gays in CA would have equaled another 7% and we would be ahed by 3%
unregistered gay voters in california would have given us 10% more = 6% ahead
Registered gays CA who didn't vote + unregstered ca gays = 17% more for our side and we would have won at +13% ahead

f) How much outreach have you done to black communities? Did you or anyone in No on 8 canvass there or engage anyone beyond going out a week befor the vote:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20081124/kim

Saying in parts:

" First, there's the matter of the Yes on 8 coalition's staggering disinformation campaign. Ad after ad told voters that without Prop 8, their churches would be forced to perform same-sex unions and be stripped of their tax-exempt status; that schools would teach their children to practice homosexuality; and, perhaps most effective, that a smiling Barack Obama had said, "I'm not in favor of gay marriage." This last bit went out in a flier by the Yes on 8 campaign, targeting black households."

Adding:

"But it's only in an organizing vacuum that bald lies and racial pandering find room to thrive. Gay activists, by most accounts, were simply outmaneuvered. Andrea Shorter, a black lesbian volunteer for the No on 8 campaign, told me that the outreach to the African-American community began in earnest a week ago. "What's happened is that there's been an outcry from communities of color, including African-American communities, who say, 'Include us!' Now there's a GOTV strategy, but for some it seems last minute," she said in an interview before the election. Another No on 8 activist, Karin Wang, told me at the City Hall rally that when Asian Pacific Islander groups went to buy ads in Chinese and Korean newspapers, they were informed that Yes on 8 had been renting space for weeks.

Many gay leaders, especially those less central to the No on 8 efforts, told me that such disorder was endemic to gay efforts. "The campaign doesn't seem to have got its act together until a few weeks ago. It wasn't clicking. It wasn't raising money. It didn't have good ads on the air," says Rafael Mandelman of the San Francisco Harvey Milk LGBT Democratic Club. He laments, in particular, the absence of gay couples in No on 8 materials, which mainly depicted straight celebrities and elected officials. That's a choice that was strangely mirrored by the Yes on 8 campaign, which put not antigay hate but heterosexual love--its sanctity and the threat to it--at the center of its message. At the City Hall rally on Sunday, the loudest cheers were for a young, straight Chinese couple who had exchanged their vows in front of the crowd. Their marriage, they hoped, would be made "safe" by Prop 8. It certainly was celebrated."


But please , please move on like the coward you and Andrew Sullivan are. I got used to this sort of hit and run and forgetting prior actions from Sullivan with such things as the Bell Curve and his endorsing the Iraqi War. I used to wonder why you guys are friendly. Now I can see why. Gay white privilege mixed with ignorance is a terrible thing to behold.

Craig

Posted by Craig | November 6, 2008 10:35 AM
236

I am so excited about Barack Obama, but I was let down after hearing that so many black people voted for prop 8. It seems as if religion has struck again in my community. It is very unfortunate that my people(black) were unable to take religion out of the equation, (along with the other folks that voted for it). We are not supposed to be putting our religion on people. this is a clear case where people did. ONce you take religion out of the equation there is no way you could deny people their basic human rights and civil liberties. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!!

Posted by kia | November 6, 2008 10:40 AM
237

DAN

Please excuse the typos. I did that above post quickly because I find your scapegoating stunning. You claim to be open minded, but quite frankly, you seem just as knee jerk without proof as any other a**hole with an opinion. Read the rather long post I wrote prior to this one. It provides data, context and ideas for understanding what happened versus picking something that fits a recieved common wisdom of the gay white community that your problems are to be blames on one source.

Posted by Craig | November 6, 2008 10:40 AM
238

DAN

Please excuse the typos. I did that above post quickly because I find your scapegoating stunning. You claim to be open minded, but quite frankly, you seem just as knee jerk without proof as any other a**hole with an opinion. Read the rather long post I wrote prior to this one. It provides data, context and ideas for understanding what happened versus picking something that fits a recieved common wisdom of the gay white community that your problems are to be blames on one source.

Posted by Craig | November 6, 2008 10:41 AM
239

Your privilege is showing, Dan, and it ain't pretty.

Sometimes I wonder if you ever stop to think before you put your fingers on your keyboard.

Posted by Cess | November 6, 2008 11:32 AM
240

Please take a moment to educate yourself, Dan. Brown people do not bear the full weight of the passage of Prop 8. White people passed it, particularly those living in conservative strongholds. Look at the numbers; should every brown person in the state refrained from voting for this issue, it *still* would have passed.

http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/291430.html

So the numbers don't bear out your claim.

Posted by Liz | November 6, 2008 11:34 AM
241

Alice said something a way back youder to the top here that I think is very important: "let's not make this into blacks vs gays warfare, because it isn't. It's a battle against ignorance."

While it might be an interesting intellectual exercise to note that 70% of AA in Cali voted for Prop 8, and while it might be useful from a marketing perspective when it comes to outreach and education, the race, sex, creed, reglion, etc, of people who vote for Prop 8 is otherwise irrelevant. It is simply a question of ignorance vs non-ignorance. That is all and that is all that matters. If 0% of AA voted for prop 8 but 100% whites voted for then it still would have lost, and there would be no gnashing of teeth over how whites are a problem. Why? Because race actually is irrelevant. To focus on it is to try to fix the wrong thing.

It is also, I think, worthwhile to note that oppression doesn't make one a better person. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, it seems that oppression makes one a better oppressor. There is an old saying I'm stealing from Ta-Nehesi Coates...Blacks didn't hate slavery, they hated being slaves. Sums it up nicely. We can make common cause with other currently oppressed groups but it simply does not follow that we can make common cause with previously oppressed groups. That's just not how humans work. Any expectations as such are only going to lead to disappointment.

Anyway, chins up, ~everyone.~ The struggle for gay civil rights is NOT ENDING. Prop 8 is NOT THE END OF THE ISSUE. It is only one more step on the path.

Posted by bakum | November 6, 2008 11:42 AM
242

I do not see why these disappointments surprise anyone. You cannot have someone saying that I am against Prop 8 AND I am also against gay marriage. It sends the mixed message that only comes out loud and clear--it doesn't matter if it goes down. I am thrilled that Obama won this election, but I have never seen him as a friend of gay people. He deliberately was vague on support in this case. True, he says he is against gay marriage. True, he says we don't "need" proposition 8. But also true, his mixed message was certainly not going to persuade his followers, black or white, to vote this down. He played it safe and it cost us.

Posted by Al | November 6, 2008 12:42 PM
243

You say 70% of African American voters approved Prop 8? Well you're probably also aware that African Americans don't represent a majority (or even close to a majority) of voters. This means that percentages and statistics aside, when it comes down to it, while a lower percentage of whites voted to pass Prop 8, the actual number of whites that voted yes surpassed the number of blacks (and latinos and asians). Soooooo, if you really want to bring race into it, it is absolutely in your right to do so but consider the possibility of alienating blacks who did vote no on Prop 8--highly innapropriate considering that no racial group alone could of voted for prop 8 to be passed and it had less to do with race and more to do with personal conservative views. Just because you vote progressively in some regards does not mean that you have to vote liberally in others and unfortunately, this mean a step in the wrong direction for human rights. However, let us not take two steps back by making this a race issue. Homophobic people are a threat to everyone regardless of what their race is (and how you are able to so confidently state that you are done pretending that white homophobes are more threatening than black homophobes really befuddles me).

Posted by Karen Minyety | November 6, 2008 1:22 PM
244

"I’ll eat my shorts if gay and lesbian voters went for McCain at anything approaching the rate that black voters went for Prop 8."

Um hello, a lot of gay and lesbian voters wouldn't go for McCain. Not because they don't support black people but because the Republican Party doesn't have their self-interest at heart on the social issues. Duh.

And why does it even matter that you voted for Obama in a federal election? What does that have to do with the California propositions? Do you honestly think that because you happened to vote for a Democrat running for president who happened to be black that the whole African-American population in California should immediately do whatever you say?

30% of African-Americans voted No on the proposition. Perhaps they were lone voices in their communities, which takes courage. That 30% hold the key to the door of opening the other 70%'s hearts on future propositions. They are your allies but don't alienate them.

In addition to that, there are many Catholics and Mormons who support gay rights, and once again, they are your allies and hold the keys to the rest of the people in their religious groups. Cultivate allies, don't insult people.

Posted by Ayo | November 6, 2008 2:40 PM
245

Well, Dan, I'm eagerly awaiting your post attacking white people as the enemies of gay rights, since almost half of them voted for Proposition 8. And most of the money for the Yes on 8 campaign came from white sources (like the Mormons, who are overwhelmingly white). Not to mention the fact that white people have historically held the vast majority of positions of power in the U.S., so they surely deserve the blame for the longstanding institutional discrimination against gay people.

Or does it seem somehow unfair to blame a whole group of people when it's people who look like you?

Posted by Kit | November 6, 2008 2:47 PM
246

Dan, I am so totally rock-hard at the idea of you taking off and eating your shorts. But I have another idea. Revenge-fuck every closet case Mormon you can find. Hard and mercilessly.

Posted by Nick | November 6, 2008 2:50 PM
247

Dan, I shouldn't have been shocked at your comments, you tend by and large to be ignorant and indifferent to anything that exists outside of your narrow world view. You are racist, and classist, and frankly, no different than George W. Bush, because, like him you essentially have your head up your backside.

Your arrogance and hatred isn't unusual in the gay community. Here's a blog article by a gay anglican priest in the church of England, you know, one of those liberal protestants who claim to be all about tolerance, which translates to the fascism the far left are as capable of as the far right (I used a tiny url shortcut so as not to break up the link): http://tinyurl.com/5kyk3z

That gay priest is the epitome of the elites in the gay movement, and he feels as entitled as you do, Dan, to commit hate speech with impunity, because you not only do not respect civil rights, you know that under your status quo, rich, spoiled fascists like you can get away with it.

Get off your lazy behind and get out there in the real world where families and individuals are being pushed out onto the street, where real hunger and suffering are happening. What happened is your own damned fault, and it's because you only care about yourself.

Do you think that any one should have to conform to your way of thinking? Why is it that you have a right not to conform, but others must? I'm a woman of color, a liberal democrat and I reject your fascism, and I will NEVER support gay rights, until your so called movement changes from within, and instead of being run by your sort, it's run by human beings who actually understand and respect what diversity truly means, and that means understanding that those of other races, religions, etc.. all have the right to their beliefs, and you can't force your own down their throats. That they won't think that gay issues are the only ones, there is poverty and economic suffering in the gay community. Not that you'd care much about that.

The elites in the gay community have included slumlords, and those who demanded that blacks be ethnically cleansed from neighborhoods in SF, and in other parts of California, and in Massachusetts, and elsewhere.

Posted by Jenn | November 6, 2008 4:04 PM
248

Let me start off by saying that I am a hetero Black woman living in Los Angeles. And I am as saddened/frustrated/disheartened/pissed off as a lot of the rest of you at the passing of Prop 8. It was a black eye on Tuesday, as far as I'm concerned...

That being said Dan, DO NOT even try, for a minute, to put this off on Black folks. For real. We account for roughly 6 percent of the total population out here, so, I think, that when the real stats come out on this, (fuck an exit poll, cause a lot of people aren't comfortable with telling a pollster that they're prejudiced about certain things), we're gonna see that it's the collective ignorance & intolerance of a LOT of muthafuckas, of all races, that need to be addressed. I work in corporate America, & just as many White people as minority people here told me that they weren't comfortable with legalizing gay marriage either. You go outside of LA/SF city limits, & it's another world...

Calm your ass down, check out this link & then YOU do the math...

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/11/prop-8-and-the.html

Does the Black community have a serious homophobia problem? Yes, it does & I'm not going to excuse it. And it really needs to be addressed, on a lot of different levels, because it's hurting us as a community. But until more outreach is done in Black & Latino communities by our Black & Latino gay & lesbian brothers & sisters, it's not going to get better.

And to be quite honest, as a community organizer, I saw a lack of intensity from a lot of the gays that I know regarding this issue. Not everyone was doing his/her part on this. I think they just felt that it was going to fail because it was unfair. A lot of people slept on this until it became apparent that this thing had a REAL good chance of passing. That's when the scrambling around began, but it was already too late to stop the momentum. I also think that the folks directing the campaign on NO on Prop. 8 should've done more outreach in the hood/barrio. It wasn't until the 2 weeks or so before the election that I heard ads on the radio asking Black folks to consider the unfairness of the Proposition. There should have been outreach into Black churches, maybe approaching some of the Black local politicians, etc. in order for this thing to be made relevant for a lot of people of color. Because the face of what was shown by the NO on 8 was just some dry ass gay White couples telling their story. & while yes, that shouldn't have anything to do with it, the reality is that the avg. Black person is seeing this & there is a disconnect because they can't relate to those people at all, not them or the folks in West Hollywood, who for the most part are White, & tend to identify themselves more by sexual orientation & are oftentimes more involved in the gay community. A big part of the failure of the attempt to defeat this proposal was just plain old bad execution on the part of the folks who were running this thing.

Black folks should've been made aware of the consequences that voting Yes on this Proposition was going to have on their own sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, neighbors, etc., the message should've been more tailored demographically...more personal.

The YES folks had a well organized team on the ground, and even at the polls, answering people's questions (lying), etc. Yes, they were a lot more well funded, & but still, I think they were able to execute more effectively. And they converged on the Black & Latino communities, especially in churches, they went to conservative Orange County, San Diego area, playing on a lotta folks' ignorance & fears.

So, I understand muthafuckas are pissed, but don't start none, won't be none. Put blame where blame is due, on ALL of us who didn't do enough to educate or combat the ignorance of others, not just on some...


Peace.

Posted by flygyrl72 | November 6, 2008 4:37 PM
249

I know you're not reading this comment thread anymore, but it really saddened me to read this from you. Not like it matters to you, but you lost a lot of cred with me.

To me now, you're no different than most others in the gay community who really just only care about gay things. You're just a narrow-minded liberal.

Posted by Jesse | November 6, 2008 5:14 PM
250

What,so you suppose that because blacks did liberal whites a favor and voted for Obama that they expected the favor returned with Prop 8? listen Dan, blacks are not a black monolith. We don't all think alike and you can't put all of us in one box. We're individuals with our own thoughts and opinions and for many, a vote for Obama did not equate a vote on no for Prop 8. So because paternalistic white folks allowed a “black” (aka mixed heritage) president to be elected president they deserve not only a pat on the black but the assurance that because we are "colorblind", that black folks owe them something in return?

And you call yourself progressive yet you only stand to show how racist you truly are. Why is it that you think black homophobes pose such a large threat to gay Americans than racist white men are to people of color? Oh right, because you're self-involved and only care about things that affect your privilege as a "liberal" white gay man. Kudos to you.

And just so you know, I say this as a black queer male that voted NO on 8. But right now, I'm voting NO on you, Dan Savage.

Posted by T.H. Mercury | November 6, 2008 5:18 PM
251

What,so you suppose that because blacks did liberal whites a favor and voted for Obama that they expected the favor returned with Prop 8? listen Dan, blacks are not a black monolith. We don't all think alike and you can't put all of us in one box. We're individuals with our own thoughts and opinions and for many, a vote for Obama did not equate a vote on no for Prop 8. So because paternalistic white folks allowed a “black” (aka mixed heritage) president to be elected president they deserve not only a pat on the black but the assurance that because we are "colorblind", that black folks owe them something in return?

And you call yourself progressive yet you only stand to show how racist you truly are. Why is it that you think black homophobes pose such a large threat to gay Americans than racist white men are to people of color? Oh right, because you're self-involved and only care about things that affect your privilege as a "liberal" white gay man. Kudos to you.

And just so you know, I say this as a black queer male that voted NO on 8. But right now, I'm voting NO on you, Dan Savage.

Posted by T.H. Mercury | November 6, 2008 5:19 PM
252

How about instead of pointing fingers, we white folks take this as a wake-up call, stop writing off communities of color and rural communities in our quest for equality, and talk to queers and allies of color to ask them how we can help the work they're already doing on this issue?

How about we take responsibility for not doing a better job to reach out to voters who don't have the same exposure to gays and lesbians in their daily lives?

How about we ask some tough questions about the No on 8 campaign and what it did and didn't do with the widely circulated information that African-American and Latino/a turnout would be up?

How about we recognize that the only reason we've been able to ignore this for so long is because our white privilege usually allows us not to suffer when people of color are homophobic?

Posted by Hot Tramp | November 6, 2008 5:22 PM
253

70% of blacks in California voted for bigotry. The black bigots may make up only 6.2% of California's electorate, but not the nation's as a whole.


Blacks have the highest population percentage in the southeast and the southeast without a doubt, the most anti-gay region of the United States.


Disproportionate anti-gay bigotry is something we came blame them for in this nation, even if they are only a minor problem in California.


The LGBT community and other social progressives have been putting too much of their effort into fighting and blame on the white crackers and rednecks for making that region the most backwards in the country and not enough into the black bigots.


This needs to change!

Posted by Melissa G | November 6, 2008 5:44 PM
254

I have, at least, enjoyed smacking around my lib friends with this news. That's been some consolation. At any rate, the party's over. I won't be voting Obama in 2012. Not after this payback.

Posted by TruthTeller | November 6, 2008 6:16 PM
255

I do not have a problem reading your article condeming ignorant black evangelicals who are voting to deny me equality any more than white evangelicals who do the same thing. This issue and subgroup is too important to feel as though no one can address it. Thank you for your post. I call a spade a spade and think you are being persecuted for doing the same thing. It is not racist to analyze the statistical vote of a certain racial group.

Posted by ewe | November 6, 2008 6:17 PM
256

However, if you feel there is a handful of racist gay white men out there, i would appreciate you naming them. It seems as if you feel they have a tremendous force of will on people.

Posted by ewe | November 6, 2008 6:20 PM
257

There have been many posts here that state far more eloquently than I have the lack of communication that occurred on the Prop 8 on the racial front. Diplomatic posts, even. And those posts are ignored by the majority of what appears to be those who refuse to let go of that white privilege. That makes me sad. Because the same shitty behavior exerted by some of the posters here is the reason why the community doesn't come together the way it should.

Yes, black gays and lesbians would be the ones who benefit the most from stopping homophobia in the black community, but its odd that the topic has only arisen in response to what white gay people deem as an affront to white gay interests. Why does it seem many of the socially progressive white GLBT people are uninterested in issues of social justice if they don't relate to being white + gay?

If there are only a handful of gay white racists, it appears they all read this blog.

Posted by Carlos | November 6, 2008 6:43 PM
258

Blame black folks for everything. The housing crisis. Now this. White-ass SOBs.

Posted by EVD | November 6, 2008 6:55 PM
259

mr savage -

i haven't yet read through all these comments, mostly because as an african-american, i'm sensitive to racial hostility. but please know that some of us in the community are trying to change these homophobic attitudes.

i unfortunately don't live in california, but shared in your anger that prop 8 passed. i think it's bullshit and that it is indeed discrimination. for years, people who looked like me could only marry people (of the opposite sex) who also looked like them. after many civil fights, i'm now able to wed any man of any ethnicity.

being able to broaden that opportunity to EVERYONE is only fulfilling the promise of our country, as we did by electing barack obama. this is not a fight worth giving up.

- ragamuffin

Posted by ragamuffin | November 6, 2008 7:45 PM
260

Dan Savage you are an ASS!

Black people make up 7% of the Electorate. How about a post about the WHITE people that voted Yes on 8? How about the No on 8 people taking some responsibility for running a piss poor campaign and doing NO OUTREACH EXCEPT TO HAVE THEIR HANDS OUT!

It is about reciprocity. When the majority of people are Upper Class whites as the face of No on 8 who have done no work in poorer communities why is it a surprise that people have other things on their minds?

CA has Civil Union, Domestic Partnerships and are allowed to adopt.

Why not compare other state's legislation that was also defeated? Is that all Black people's fault too?

What work have YOU done even with LGBTs of color? Without making it into a 'project' but doing something from the heart?

WHY are all the MAJOR GAY ORGANIZATIONS RUN BY WHITE MEN????

IT IS ABOUT RECIPROCITY AND NOT TAKING VOTES FOR GRANTED!!!

Posted by Faith Dow | November 6, 2008 8:32 PM
261

I think what annoys me most about the mainstream (i.e. “white”) gay community is the tendency to make general assumptions about people...in this case, black people. Listen, and I say this as a gay black man, the black community does not “owe” the gay community its empathy or support JUST BECAUSE we too know what it is like to be discriminated against. Sure, it’s always nice when one ‘minority’ and another ‘minority’ can get together and “relate” and/or become understandingly passionate about issues that faces the other…but the level of “shock” some white gay people love to have when they see that we don’t automatically embrace, or relate to, their struggle and/or liken it to our own has always irritated the hell out of me. Especially since you hardly ever other minority groups (ethnic, women, religious, handicap, etc., etc.) instantly making that same assumption/analogy.



Also, I’ll be frank: when was the last time the mainstream (again, “white”) gay community stepped up to the plate to rally in support of political or social issues that specifically concern black folks—without there being any kind of gay slant involved? When the police officers that beat Rodney King got off, I don’t recall that much outrage from gay white men. I don’t remember GLAAD, or any other gay civic organization, collectively rallying to support the victims of Katrina. And you know what? I don’t expect any to! Nor do I hold any ill will towards any gays who don’t identify with our struggle enough to let it personally permeate their psyche. Before anyone misconstrues what I’m saying, I’m not suggesting that NO singular gay white person(s) has *ever* rallied for or openly supported causes concerning African-Americans. I’m sure many have, individually, but by the numbers I haven’t see the gay community having that much of a brotherhood attitude toward black folks for there to be all of these feelings of alarm and indignation that when we don’t feel it either.



All I see is a “how dare YOU be against US…who do YOU think YOU are?” attitude. As if we owe it to you to try and relate. Meanwhile, as a gay black man…I can tell you, from personal experience and observation, that the level of covert and obvious bigotry/racism in the gay community is plenty big. Gay AA author James Earl Hardy once noted that gay white men can be just as, if not more so, racist as their straight white counterparts…and I would agree. So much so that even as a gay man, I don’t always feel automatic solidarity with other gay people on "gay" issues.



Now I don’t like in CA, so therefore I wasn’t amongst the 70% of AA who voted yes on 8, but if I did, I’m not so sure that my no vote would have been a reflex. Believe me, as hostile as Dan (and some of the respondents here) feel about the AA statistics for this prop., I feel equally frosty after hearing/reading some of what I have from gay white men who still have the luxury of (overall) white privilege in this society, calling out black folks as though we’ve wronged them. Please.

Posted by Acem | November 6, 2008 8:37 PM
262

Acem, you are wrong. GLAAD *did* have a relief fund for hurricane Katrina. Of course, most things gay people do don't get mentioned on TV. Any TV news program that pointed this out would be accused of "promoting the homosexual agenda" so of course most good deeds, or any deeds, by gay people go unmentioned.

In general, I think the gay community needs to wake up and realize that the Democratic party is just using us for votes every few years. Unless President Obama gives us some *real* protections, I won't contribute money to, or work toward, his reelection.

Posted by John | November 6, 2008 9:03 PM
263

I am very disappointed in your comments, Mr. Savage. Given that the exit polls have a high margin of error, and given that the Black population of California is much smaller than the Latino, white and Asian populations, individually or taken together, and -- finally -- given that many gay people are ALSO Black, I am hurt by the fact that you have chosen to use your widely respected voice to attack African Americans.

I am especially shocked by your tit for tat assessment of the Obama vote. You act as though you voted for a Black guy in exchange for having Black folks vote for gay people (who you seem to assume are all white). This is disappointing for even more reasons than I can name. It is patently racist and despicably patronizing.

I hope that you will reconsider your biased opinion of Black people. There are other minority groups who were much more visible and outspoken supporters of prop 8 and yet you overlook them in order to focus your attention on vilifying Black people. If you need me to provide a list of Black people (lgbt and straight) who have opposed anti-gay legislation all over the country, then please contact me. I would be happy to do so.

If you need me to remind you that no Black legislator has EVER proposed anti-gay legislation or an anti-gay ballot initiative in any state, then consider yourself reminded.

Posted by Black on Campus | November 6, 2008 9:35 PM
264

I am so terribly disappointed at this statement as well as the general backlash against black voters in the aftermath of the passage of prop 8. Black voters are not the enemy here. Bear in mind too that Black and gay are not mutually exclusive categories. It seems like that point has been forgotten in this conversation. Moreover, while so many people like to act as if the African American community has the market cornered on homophobia, there are also many examples in the history of the Civil Rights movement, as well as contemporary examples, of activists who recognized that no one is free when others are oppressed. There have always been Black activists who understood that while racism must be eradicated, so too must we strive to eradicate homophobia, sexism, ableism and every other form of discrimination. All forms of oppression are equally wrong. The sort of oppression olympics you are engaging in here are logically flawed and counterproductive.

Posted by Margarita Smith | November 6, 2008 10:13 PM
265

I view the (admittedly statistically iffy) exit poll information as suggesting areas of work. Maybe 70% (ish) of blacks in CA voted for 8 because they haven't been forced to acknowledge that their own sons and daughters, their heroes, are often LGBT. Baldwin might be revered as a pathbreaking writer, but does anyone persistently point out his bisexuality? Does anyone point out that Bayard Rustin, MLK,Jr.'s organizer for the March on Washington, was a gay man? At this point, what we white LGBTs can do is support black LGBTs/same-gender-loving people, acknowledging that it is hard to be rejected in the one community that forms a refuge against the indignities and systemic injustices often encountered in the white majority US culture. They have to take the responsibility of educating their communities - it isn't our place - but we need to exhibit some good faith and some interest in their concerns as blacks and not just as gays.

Posted by NancyP | November 6, 2008 10:46 PM
266

I know people are pissed off. I am too. But, really, it's irresponsible to blame African-Americans for the passage of Prop 8 since their vote alone was not large enough to pass it.

Let's look at the exit poll numbers from CNN (leaving aside the rather problematic issue of using an exit poll in the first place) in another way. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=CAI01p1

2,240 were surveyed, of which 63% identified as white and 10% identified as African-American. This means approx 1,411 voters in the sample were white, while 224 voters in the sample were black.

Let's ask, what would the numbers be if the white population that voted 49%Y/51%N shifted 5% in favor of "N"? And what would the numbers be if the AA population that voted 70%Y/30%N shifted 5% in favor of "N"?

For the white population, this would mean a shift of 71 votes into the "N" column, enough to defeat Prop 8. And the AA population? A shift of only 11 votes, not enough to make a difference.

So, IF we're "blaming" groups, one could ask why the largest voting bloc didn't vote 44%Y/56%N since THAT would have made the difference.

I don't think blaming anyone is the answer though.

Posted by saffron | November 6, 2008 11:12 PM
267

This is not surprising, how many white gay males do you know have all white friends, say "no black or asians" on their profiles, and haven't even thought about getting support from other minority groups during all their campaigning? Now they are putting all the blame on blacks, when I'm sure they did not go door-to-door in Inglewood trying to get their support. Hopefully now both sides can learn something from this and try to become more unified!

Posted by eric | November 7, 2008 2:34 AM
268

Look,

The numbers speak for themselves. The black community in CA did not offer gays anywhere near the same degree of support they'd received from them. If black guys are such real men, why don't they support their children with a little more reliability? There are numbers on that one, too. You can't just get without giving.

Posted by freelyb | November 7, 2008 2:35 AM
269

Acem,

I am also truly sorry that your black self is clearly ashamed of your gay self. It's just not right. May you find what you are looking for...

Posted by freelyb | November 7, 2008 2:53 AM
270

#265

>> Baldwin might be revered as a pathbreaking writer, but does anyone persistently point out his bisexuality? Does anyone point out that Bayard Rustin, MLK,Jr.'s organizer for the March on Washington, was a gay man?

That's an excellent point. I remember how inspiring it was to learn about famous gay/bi people. This information needs to be spread. We also need to reach them through the media - when was the last time you saw a black gay character on a movie/TV show that wasn't meant specifically for a gay audience? Come to think of it, when was the last time you saw a non-white character in such a role?

Posted by Crow | November 7, 2008 3:06 AM
271

freelyb, I mean this with all sincerity...go fuck yourself with a very sharp object until you bleed out. You don't know what the hell you're talking about and therefore should probably shut up.

Posted by kral | November 7, 2008 7:31 AM
272

"A handful of racist gay white men"? Really? I think its probably over 70% of gay white men who are racist. Including you, Dan.

Posted by raymondj | November 7, 2008 7:50 AM
273

"A handful of racist gay white men"? Really? I think its probably over 70% of gay white men who are racist. Including you, Dan.

Posted by raymondj | November 7, 2008 7:50 AM
274

Dan, your white privilege is showing, and it ain't pretty. Exactly how do you plan on gaining allies with this kind of sophomoric, racist nonsense? Further, if you're so worried about "black homophobia"(who knew homophobia could be delineated along racial lines?), then Dan, please tell us about your grassroots organizing efforts among communities of color. Tell us how you sat down with the very same people you're demonizing and worked to educate them about Prop 8. Tell us how you did work in communities of color long before Prop 8 was even an issue. Tell us what you've done--and don't give us that "you have a Black gay friend who told you" bullshit, either--before you pontificate about your putatively righteous anger with ALL Black folk. Until then, you are invited to have a nice, steaming cup of shut the fuck up.

Posted by Roger | November 7, 2008 8:28 AM
275

please read the following diary from dkos, that attempts, convincingly in my opinion, to debunk the myth of african american voters being responsible for prop 8's result.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

Posted by nate | November 7, 2008 9:03 AM
276

Shame, shame, on some blaming a group of people. Anyone who voted for this is a at fault. Stop scape goating people! Try building coalitions with various groups. Sir you failed to state that only 6.2% of California is African American. Of that 6.2%, 13% are felons so they cannot vote. This exit poll you are citing is wrong. Did you ask where they conducted the exit polling?Was in it more conservative districts or more progressive districts.? Did you ask how many AA's they interviewed? Did you ask what was the age of the people they interviewed? I doubt it. I am a AA woman who supports Marriage Equality. This arguement is of sterotypes and generalizations about a group of people. I know your view is not reflective of the entire "gay community", so why do you think some flawed poll reflects mine. Here are the voters who voted for Prop 8
Non-Black Votes in Favor of Proposition 8:
White Men: 51% of 31% of 10,325,615 votes: 1,632,480 Yes
White Women: 47% of 32% of 10,325,615 votes: 1,552,972 Yes
Latino Men: 54% of 8% of 10,325,615 votes: 446,067 Yes
Latino Women: 52% of 11% of 10,325,615 votes: 592,170 Yes
Asian/Native: 51% of 9% of 10,325,615 votes: 473,946 Yes
Total: 4,697,635 (9.3 times the maximum TOTAL number of Black votes in California.)

Sir I ask you, who are you going to blame now?
I feel for you and I see the pain you feel because of the passion expressed in this post but to blame a group of people for a act of many takes away from this just cause.

Lets try to work together. Go to the progressive churchs, go to labor groups, go to the NAACP and work with them. They have fighting for equality for all for a very long time.

This fight will be won my friend and I will be standing by your side in solidarity. Now is a moment to regroup and get organized.
Peace and blessings..

Posted by Ann | November 7, 2008 9:33 AM
277

DAN.
You are fucking with my sex life now.

I am a Black femme dyke who lives in Canada and travels to the States all the time- specifically California where except for the strongholds of Mission and Castro and some areas of LA - it's rural and/or not queer friendly. Nobody thinks that because everyone's grooving on the myth of California as the liberal from border to border state.

You MESSED UP BADLY on this one. Now I have another load of work to do to point out your BAD math skills with queers of all colours who ain't Black - who think `gay is the new black'.

All of this work I have to do fighting this misinformation you broadcast is messing with my SEX life cuz I'm too tired to chase butches. Get busy with a retraction, ok?!

Posted by femmeflame | November 7, 2008 10:36 AM
278

Dan, I won't argue that homophobia and general Christian-spawned and historic intolerance remain pervasive in the black community. But the same can be said for Hispanics, many Asian groups and large (majority nation) of whites. Don't scapegoat. It doesn't help.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raymond-leon-roker/stop-blaming-californias_b_142018.html

Posted by Raymond Roker | November 7, 2008 10:46 AM
279

It's probably pretty useless to post here at this point, but I think it's possible to accept two propositions that might actually move us forward on this issue:

1.) That 70% exit poll figure is pretty shocking. It is stupid to deny this or assume, without analysis, that it can't be right. Liberals were happy to view the exit polls for Kerry in 2004 as grounds to suspect Republican malfeasance.

2.) That said, like the exit polls in 2004, it isn't right -- that is, it's not at all clear that it reflects the tendencies of the population of black voters. In particular, it's almost certain that black voters didn't swing the vote. (Note that Dan does talk about the tendencies of African-American voters, but doesn't say they swung the vote on Prop 8. This makes sense; the latter statement isn't relevant to his argument.)

The diary linked by #275 is worth reading. Don't bother with the rhetoric, just skip to the numbers.

Posted by mjw | November 7, 2008 11:48 AM
280

Sorry Dan but who are you to scrutinize how other people voted? Everyone had the choice to choose the option that they were the most comfortable with. This is a democracy, after all. Everyone had the chance to vote how they wanted, including you. It was a fair fight. Being mad at people because your side lost, and trying to call out or shame people for how they voted is nothing short of arrogance. You don't get to tell me how to feel, or place your own expectations on me. They asked me a question on November 4, and I answered it. My decision. My business.

Posted by joe | November 7, 2008 12:06 PM
281

Amen Ren amen!! And the ONLY reason a lot of you ass-holes are pissed at his comments is because he's right with a capital R!! Another case of a spoiled brat,rich,privileged white male bitching about how the 'opressors' have become the opressed and how you are now the 'new' minority really Dan?!! I'll have to remember that when I have the LUXURY of a 'don't ask,don't tell' policy or the ability to 'come out' whenever I feel like it or for ratings or when it's convient and you want to talk 'hypocrisy' why don't some of you fucktards look in a damn mirror!! 'Handful' my ass!! Racism is RAMPANT in the gay community and 95 percent of it comes from drumroll please: WHITE PEOPLE and you bitches crying foul and your arrogant,delusional,egotistical,condescending,selfish,snobby,bratty,racist,clueless,and very,very,VERY FAKE attitudes are maybe a BIG reason why so many in the black community hate you and don't want to support you. But rather than that you spoiled pricks want to play blame game and oppression olympics never mind that at the end of the day no matter how you whine and scream of being 'victimized' and 'demonized' by others notably the same black people you have discriminated against yourselves LOOOOOOONG before Prop 8 was even a THOUGHT yet. If ANYONE needs to 'cut the crap' it's you and wake up and smell what you are shoveling!!

Posted by clean and sober | November 7, 2008 12:18 PM
282

Please print a retraction. As a black gay man I find this deeply offensive. I've always struggled with my place in the gay community and now I see for certain that I have no place in it. I'm as upset as anybody else by the passage of Prop 8 and I can't believe that the title of this article isn't simply HOMOPHOBIA!! Now I see where we really stand in the community when faced with a leader of the gay cultural movement has vomited up his knee-jerky racist reaction for all to see.

Posted by Mitch | November 7, 2008 12:18 PM
283
I do know this, though: I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.

Mr. Savage, with all due respect, you can't speak for Black LGBT folks on which form of oppression is worse---queer racism, Black homophobia, or for that matter, queer and/or Black sexism and transphobia. You don't live your life at either of those frustrating intersections, and you have no idea what those of us who do live in those places go through.

Please understand: as a white cisgendered man, you are privileged in relation to many of us in the queer community. When you presume to speak for us who are neither white, nor male, nor cisgendered, you speak from you position of relative privilege. And like many white men time and time again in the United States (who may be marginalized in one respect but are still white guys in a racist-sexist society), you then speak from your privileged perspective when you try to articulate what lived reality is for the rest of us.

Now you may disagree with the idea that you're in any way privileged as a gay man in a homophobic society, but look at it this way: if there are people who are torn down by racism or sexism, then by necessity there most be other people who are built up by racism and sexism. Do you face the world as a woman, person of color, or transperson, Mr. Savage? Do you have any concept of what it means to live in those identities, or to experience multiple levels of oppression? For me, that's the rub.

And this needs to be said: Black homophobic voters did not create Prop 8, nor did they get it passed it by themselves. The blame for Prop 8 lies at the hands of the same reactionary, racist, homophobic forces that have always made this country a tough place to live. Why can't we see that?

Posted by Y. Carrington | November 7, 2008 12:27 PM
284

Dan,

You seem to be asserting that black folks are more homophobic than white people. Do you decide "more homophobic" by percentages or totals? And even if black folks somehow are "more homophobic" than white people, why blame black folks for passing Prop 8? It means much more to me that 31% of the total polled voters in CA were white men, 51% of whom voted for Prop 8. White women made up 32% of the polled voters in CA and 47% voted for Prop 8. In total, white folks made up 64% of the total polled voters. Black voters, in comparison, made up 10% of the polled voters in CA. White voters for Prop 8 had an enormous, if not the decisive impact on the proposition. So why, then, the attention on black voters? It seems scapegoat-ish to me.

You write, "I can't help but feeling hurt that the love and support aren't mutual" (between gay folks who elected a black man into office - as if this was some favor or anti-racist action in support of black people in general - and black folks). If you believe that your voting for a black man for president is some big, important way of showing love and support for the black community, you need to take a closer look at the dynamics of racism. Racism isn't just outspoken bigots or intentional acts of hate ... racism is also within our everyday interactions and within our institutions and it is also very often unintentional. How many times have you used your influence as a gay celebrity to call out racism in the gay community? How many anti-racism workshops have you been to? How many times have you publicly examined your own white privilege and made efforts to support organizations run by folks of color working for racial justice? Before we can expect straight folks of color to hold hands with gay white folks in some multicultural utopia, white gay folks have got to own and publicly work on their own racism. If white gay folks just keep looking across the racial divide at folks of color waiting for some big "we love and support you" gesture, we'll be waiting forever and the divide will still be there. White folks have to take responsibility for healing that divide because we created and maintain it -- if not intentionally, in ignorance. Maybe as more white folks examine our history and the ways in which we still, every day, benefit from racism and start doing the work to end racism in our own hearts and behaviors -- REGARDLESS of the homophobia in communities of color -- the genuine relationships we'll build with folks of color in the process will help change the hearts and minds of folks of color.

And just to drive it home (and repeat myself a little bit): It's not just these scummy white gay guys out there that are the problem for black folks and other folks of color, as you suggest. In fact, I can imagine that it is the outspoken and visible racist bigots that are easier to deal with -- they can more easily be addressed and discounted. It's the smaller, quieter, everyday indignities from unintentionally racist white folks and our unintentionally racist policies and practices in our institutions that push our communities apart. For you to compare the impacts of "a handful of racist gay white men" to the impacts of "black homophobia" (as if it's a type of homophobia inherent in blackness) indicates that you're missing a much bigger picture about the dynamics of oppression. As a homo, it's not just the outright homophobic jackasses that perpetuate heterosexism and attack my dignity each day. Attacks on my dignity also happen when straight folks ask me if I have a girlfriend or back away or change the subject when I talk about my experiences with homophobia. They happen when my straight coworkers think I'm being hyper-sensitive about my place of work extending staff picnic invitations to "spouses" or refusing to use gender-neutral pronouns in our publications. It happens when I'm tokenized by straight girl friends as the nice gay guy who's always there to talk to about boy trouble but then they can't reciprocate the support because they don't feel comfortable talking about my queerness. They happen when beloved members of my parent's church mysteriously stop talking to my parents after they come out as proud parents of a gay son. They are in the annoying burden of having to feel like the "only one in the room" or being asked to represent "the gay perspective" all the time. They are in the weight of having to come out to new people every single freakin' day. And, most disturbingly, they are in my own doubts about my inherent worth and ability to be loved. All of that is heterosexism -- not just Fred Phelps and gay bashers. And it accumulates and becomes my lived experience and my associations with straight folks and their heterosexual privileges. The dynamics of racism works the same way against folks of color. And, just as straight folks can change their assumptions, beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors to stop these (usually) unintentional attacks on my dignity as a gay person, white folks can do the same for folks of color. And when I say "can" I mean must.

Finally, if blame is to be placed for the failure to defeat Prop 8, let's blame the ideologies of domination, hierarchy, competition, and avarice, not each other. We ARE culture warriors -- all social justice work is a battle to change hearts and minds and institutional structures toward the ideologies of cooperation, equality, dignity, love and generosity. So a large percentage of black voters in CA supported Prop 8? That doesn't mean much to me about "black homophobia" (as if it were distinct from any other type of homophobia). That just means to me that us white gay folks have got a lot of work to do (on ourselves and on our world) to challenge racism as we also challenge heterosexism and classism and ableism and sexism.

-Brandon B

Posted by Brandon B | November 7, 2008 12:48 PM
285

Handful of racist gay white men?

Basically the guys who have hijacked Queer identity to the point where the rest of us are invisible and irrelevant?

Once more if you are queer and a person of color, you're getting the loyalty test and the shaft from the mainstream GLBT movement.

Posted by sophiemn | November 7, 2008 12:49 PM
286

Dan,

You seem to be asserting that black folks are more homophobic than white people. Do you decide "more homophobic" by percentages or totals? And even if black folks somehow are "more homophobic" than white people, why blame black folks for passing Prop 8? It means much more to me that 31% of the total polled voters in CA were white men, 51% of whom voted for Prop 8. White women made up 32% of the polled voters in CA and 47% voted for Prop 8. In total, white folks made up 64% of the total polled voters. Black voters, in comparison, made up 10% of the polled voters in CA. White voters for Prop 8 had an enormous, if not the decisive impact on the proposition. So why, then, the attention on black voters? It seems scapegoat-ish to me.

You write, "I can't help but feeling hurt that the love and support aren't mutual" (between gay folks who elected a black man into office - as if this was some favor or anti-racist action in support of black people in general - and black folks). If you believe that your voting for a black man for president is some big, important way of showing love and support for the black community, you need to take a closer look at the dynamics of racism. Racism isn't just outspoken bigots or intentional acts of hate ... racism is also within our everyday interactions and within our institutions and it is also very often unintentional. How many times have you used your influence as a gay celebrity to call out racism in the gay community? How many anti-racism workshops have you been to? How many times have you publicly examined your own white privilege and made efforts to support organizations run by folks of color working for racial justice? Before we can expect straight folks of color to hold hands with gay white folks in some multicultural utopia, white gay folks have got to own and publicly work on their own racism. If white gay folks just keep looking across the racial divide at folks of color waiting for some big "we love and support you" gesture, we'll be waiting forever and the divide will still be there. White folks have to take responsibility for healing that divide because we created and maintain it -- if not intentionally, in ignorance. Maybe as more white folks examine our history and the ways in which we still, every day, benefit from racism and start doing the work to end racism in our own hearts and behaviors -- REGARDLESS of the homophobia in communities of color -- the genuine relationships we'll build with folks of color in the process will help change the hearts and minds of folks of color.

And just to drive it home (and repeat myself a little bit): It's not just these scummy white gay guys out there that are the problem for black folks and other folks of color, as you suggest. In fact, I can imagine that it is the outspoken and visible racist bigots that are easier to deal with -- they can more easily be addressed and discounted. It's the smaller, quieter, everyday indignities from unintentionally racist white folks and our unintentionally racist policies and practices in our institutions that push our communities apart. For you to compare the impacts of "a handful of racist gay white men" to the impacts of "black homophobia" (as if it's a type of homophobia inherent in blackness) indicates that you're missing a much bigger picture about the dynamics of oppression. As a homo, it's not just the outright homophobic jackasses that perpetuate heterosexism and attack my dignity each day. Attacks on my dignity also happen when straight folks ask me if I have a girlfriend or back away or change the subject when I talk about my experiences with homophobia. They happen when my straight coworkers think I'm being hyper-sensitive about my place of work extending staff picnic invitations to "spouses" or refusing to use gender-neutral pronouns in our publications. It happens when I'm tokenized by straight girl friends as the nice gay guy who's always there to talk to about boy trouble but then they can't reciprocate the support because they don't feel comfortable talking about my queerness. They happen when beloved members of my parent's church mysteriously stop talking to my parents after they come out as proud parents of a gay son. They are in the annoying burden of having to feel like the "only one in the room" or being asked to represent "the gay perspective" all the time. They are in the weight of having to come out to new people every single freakin' day. And, most disturbingly, they are in my own doubts about my inherent worth and ability to be loved. All of that is heterosexism -- not just Fred Phelps and gay bashers. And it accumulates and becomes my lived experience and my associations with straight folks and their heterosexual privileges. The dynamics of racism works the same way against folks of color. And, just as straight folks can change their assumptions, beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors to stop these (usually) unintentional attacks on my dignity as a gay person, white folks can do the same for folks of color. And when I say "can" I mean must.

Finally, if blame is to be placed for the failure to defeat Prop 8, let's blame the ideologies of domination, hierarchy, competition, and avarice, not each other. We ARE culture warriors -- all social justice work is a battle to change hearts and minds and institutional structures toward the ideologies of cooperation, equality, dignity, love and generosity. So a large percentage of black voters in CA supported Prop 8? That doesn't mean much to me about "black homophobia" (as if it were distinct from any other type of homophobia). That just means to me that us white gay folks have got a lot of work to do (on ourselves and on our world) to challenge racism as we also challenge heterosexism and classism and ableism and sexism.

-Brandon B

Posted by Brandon B | November 7, 2008 12:51 PM
287

I am a resident of California, an African-American man, and I voted a resounding YES on Prop 8! Does that make me a bigot? Absolutely not! I voted out of my Christian convictions, for which I will not apologize. I voted YES because I am clear that marriage is a union and covenant between one man and one woman for life!

I don't hate gays, nor am I bitter toward them. I've known a few as many of you do, and consider them hard-working and decent people. I have been married for 28 years to a wonderful and beautiful Christian woman! WE were blessed to have two awesome daughters, and have taught them according to the teachings of Scripture.

They, too, voted YES on Prop 8, and we were proud that what we tried to instill in them apparently, has worked! Praise the Lord!

Posted by Wayne | November 7, 2008 1:04 PM
288

I admire Dan for having the balls to talk about this real problem.

re: Wayne et al...

Against gay marriage? Pay higher taxes...

Demise of Same-Sex Weddings Disheartens Business
By Jesse McKinley
Published: November 6, 2008
The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/us/07marriage.html?hp

"On Thursday, [Republican] Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who opposed Proposition 8, in part on economic grounds, announced that the state's budget deficit had already swelled to $11.2 billion for the coming year, and called the Legislature back into session and proposed higher taxes to address the budget problems.

"In June, the Williams Institute at the University of California, Los Angeles, which studies sexual orientation and the law, estimated that legalizing same-sex ceremonies in the state would result in about $63.8 million in government tax and fee revenue over three years."

Bigotry comes at a high cost.

Posted by Ben | November 7, 2008 1:29 PM
289

#287

So you shamelessly admit to forcing your beliefs on those who do not share your particular belief system. Ever heard about "freedom FROM religion"?

Well, I guess since you've taken away marriage from gay people your marriage must have tremendously improved.

And, oh, by the way, tell me Mr. Self-Righteous, since you believe that marriage is a covenant of your god, then doesn't that mean
1) A heterosexual atheist couple should not be able to get married, and
2) A gay couple who belong to a religion that says gay marriage is alright should be able to get married;

right ?

Thank GOD the entire US constitution is not in your bigoted hands.

Posted by Crow | November 7, 2008 1:50 PM
290


The LDS Church Must Be Destroyed

In 1977 a has-been pop star and corporate shill by the name of Anita Bryant used her celebrity status to push a voter initiative in Miami that struck down a local gay rights ordinance. Her primary strategy was to play up fears that "militant homosexuals" threatened to corrupt innocent children. This strategy proved effective in rolling back the rights of gays in other cities as well, until finally over a year later lesbian and gay activists in California built a statewide campaign that shrewdly wedded grassroots activism, elite-level fundraising, and a libertarian discourse that so marginalized Christian conservatives that even Ronald Reagan came out against them.

An underappreciated aspect of that story is the intense viciousness of the outrage directed at Anita Bryant. At every concert appearance, protestors picketed. Bomb threats disrupted her TV appearances. Boycotts of the products she endorsed caused lucrative contracts not to be renewed. In short, the gay community ruined her.

The community needs today to mount a comparable campaign to discredit the moral credibility of the LDS Church. No other institution has the hierachical control of membership and command of resources necessary to resist in a sustained way the cultural and demographic shifts that have brought America close to mainstream acceptance of lesbian and gay equality. What we have now is a zero sum game. The LDS Church is invested fully in securing its vision of gender, sexuality, and family as the American ideal, and it will use all of the considerable human and financial resources at its disposal to sustain that vision. To the extent that America accepts the LDS Church as a legitimate moral authority, there will NEVER be equality, there will NEVER be liberation.

Fortunately, the LDS Church is vulnerable on a variety of fronts. It has business interests that can be boycotted. It has a public image that is sensitive to historical prejudices and is easily tarnished. It possesses sacralized property that is vulnerable to desecration.

This church's leaders had a revelation to renounce polygamy only after the federal government threatened to confiscate its temples. Its leaders had a revelation to accept blacks only after their desire to expand into Brazil ran up against the complexity of racial identities in that country. What interests would have to be threatened in order for a new revelation to come? And if no revelation is forthcoming, what would it take to belittle and diminish this cabal of self-righteous hypocrites such that no self-respecting member of mainstream society wanted anything to do with them?

Posted by Moroni | November 7, 2008 2:23 PM
291

Wow, unbelievable Dan. Maybe out of 1 million blacks capable to vote, you are blaming the loss on black people? My math is pretty lacking, but assuming every black person capable of voting on the issue voted for Prop 8, there are about 6 million other voters out there who aren't black who could probably use some of the blame.

How about all the white run organizations and churches that funded the stupid legislation in the first place? Do you think that money came from black people? Really?

How about we use our thinking caps, not necessarily believe everything that comes off CNN, do a little investigation...it didn't take long, really, some critical thinking and lay your blame where it really belongs. All you have done is alienated a hell of a lot of people who supported same sex marriage. Way to go!

Posted by Wowee | November 7, 2008 2:35 PM
292

re: #291

Blame? Dan has suggested a cause for why Prop 8 passed based on facts.

"Seventy percent of African American voters approved Prop 8, according to exit polls, compared to 53% of Latino voters, 49% of white voters, 49% of Asian voters."

"And please note: My original post described black homophobia as a big problem for all gays and lesbians, whatever their color. This isn’t about African Americans beating up on gay white men and women; African American gays and lesbians are the ones who suffer the most from African American homophobia."

Posted by Ben | November 7, 2008 2:45 PM
293

re: #291

Blame? Dan has suggested a cause for why Prop 8 passed based on facts.

"Seventy percent of African American voters approved Prop 8, according to exit polls, compared to 53% of Latino voters, 49% of white voters, 49% of Asian voters."

"And please note: My original post described black homophobia as a big problem for all gays and lesbians, whatever their color. This isn’t about African Americans beating up on gay white men and women; African American gays and lesbians are the ones who suffer the most from African American homophobia."

Posted by Ben | November 7, 2008 2:55 PM
294

I am numb! Where is the follow-up to this blog promised by Dan Savage? As a dark skinned black gay male living in California I am disappointed by the African-American community response to Proposition 8 (as well as other gay measures around the country). I am stunned though by the explosive outburst by Dan Savage. I have been a reader of Mr. Savage’s writings for several years and I sat slack jawed when I read his statement that amounted to “blame those (homophobic) blacks”.
I do not want to repeat all of the thoughtful and thorough discussions on this thread-i.e. blacks are a small number of the electorate, the inaccuracy of exit polls, the lack of communication in minority neighborhoods and yes, homophobia in black communities.
I argued against Proposition 8 with relatives and neighbors. I did this despite not being in any position to take advantage of marriage in the foreseeable future. My immediate issues are far more prosaic. A couple of days before the election it struck me that there was a total absence of any media arguing against the proposition in black communities.
Mr. Savage makes it sound as if one community has larger sway over the other. I don’t know if white gay racists are more or less influential than African-American homophobes. Mr. Savage’s statement demonstrates how African-Americans are not the only people who can be myopic to other people’s problems. I have had experiences with both so I think that I am in a better position to make that assessment than Dan Savage to whom white gay racist are “scum” but only influence him in theory and conversation.
Black homophobia does affect those of us who are gay and people of color the most. Unfortunately Dan Savage’s statement in this case just makes it sound patronizing and self-serving. I do feel marginated and ignored by both communities. Comment # 257 says it well. I would seriously love to see better outreach and education programs into the African-American communities by the established gay organizations to which I donate.
I understand anger and disappointment; I understand Mr. Savage is human and subject to these emotions. It is for that reason that I have remained glued to this blog awaiting the follow-up that Mr. Savage has stated is coming. Hopefully, it will be far more nuanced and include some of the concrete solutions, which up to now I had made me a fan.

Posted by Dave | November 7, 2008 3:41 PM
295

Dan Savage is a racist and can kiss my black ass!

Posted by chicago25 | November 7, 2008 3:45 PM
296

you don't fight bigotry with bigotry.

homophobia isn't a black problem, it's a problem.
the amount of hatred in these comments is frightening- not only do they belie the interlocking nature of oppression (and obscure LGBTQQI people of color), but the assumption that the passage of prop 8 makes it "ok" to spout racist nonsense is completely backwards.

you wrote: "African American gays and lesbians are the ones who suffer the most from African American homophobia."

since you care so much about my suffering, i'll explain some more about it: i can't expect you to imagine how it feels for a queer black person to have to read the shameful vitriol in response to your post. when i finally managed to climb out of bed nov. 5th (horrified at the bigotry of some in our state), this sort of thought compounded my suffering. by this sort of thought, i mean that which ignores the problem of homophobia at large, but seeks to place it solely ( or primarily) on the shoulders of black californians.

look at the raw numbers. the lesson to be learned here is that homophobia crosses many sectors of the public.

the assumption that one) we are somehow a monolithic community that thinks the same way and two) the intricate thoughts of millions can be understood by a tiny exit poll are offensive.

i'll say it again: supposed speech against bigotry (like yours above and like many of the comments here) means nothing it fans the flames of bigotry.

Posted by meep | November 7, 2008 3:46 PM
297

"I’m not sure what to do with this. I’m thrilled that we’ve just elected our first African-American president. I wept last night. I wept reading the papers this morning. But I can’t help but feeling hurt that the love and support aren’t mutual."

also, can people stop acting like voting for obama was a huge fucking favor to every black person (and is synonymous with love and support for us all)? kthnx.

Posted by meep | November 7, 2008 3:57 PM
298

Dan,

By all the gods, do the math and get a clue! Black people are 6.7% of California's registered voters. Assuming every last one of them is adult and a registered voter, 70% of them voting for Prop 8 means that the black prop 9 vote comes to roughly 800,000 votes. Over five million people voted for Prop 8, and you're going to single out 800,000 black people? I call bullshit on that basis alone, and never mind the piss poor job the No on 8 people did reaching out those 800,000 voters.

Posted by Dan Holzman-Tweed | November 7, 2008 4:11 PM
299

Check out the clip of The Ladies from The View discussing this topic:

http://defamer.com/5079637/sherri-shepherds-goodwill-vanishes-as-she-repeats-insane-prop-8-falsehoods

Posted by Angie | November 7, 2008 4:57 PM
300

Dan and all the other like-minded respondents don't care that it wasn't black folk who created the proposition, or that they simply didn't have anywhere near the numbers to get it passed by themselves. This is more about "How dare those uppity negro's have the NERVE to vote against us!!!" That's what they're focusing on; the "how dare they..." Meanwhile as they behave as self righteous toward black folk as they think black folk were to them, they're recklessly overlooking the MAJORITY of the -YES- voters who white like them and live in their own communities. It's easier to spout indignation at those who don't look like you and who you never hang out with, than it is to reconcile that the group of co-workers from the office who every week after work you go out to TGI Friday's with voted against your cause.

Posted by Darren | November 7, 2008 5:43 PM
301

Yay, Dan Savage!

You have helped further, in a "liberal" community, what McCain and Palin started. I'm glad all of this racism is out and in public now. We can stop pretending California, and America as a whole, is Kumbaya country.

Queer people of color: you are not alone; don't believe the hype. You do have allies in your, and other brown, communities. We love you.

Posted by brownstocking | November 7, 2008 5:51 PM
302

Excuse me? I voted against Proposition 8. I'm among the 30 percent of black Californians that did so. And as much as I can condemn the homophobia and intolerance that drove a portion of the 70 percent of blacks that voted in favor of Proposition 8's ban on gay marriage, it's an outrage to lay its passage at their feet. I've read several editorials already about how the ungrateful blacks betrayed gays right after America gave them their first president. I know there are some wounds and frayed nerves right now, but this type of condescending, divide and conquer isn't going to help at all. And it's a gross oversimplification of what happened.

According to the exit polling, there's enough blame to go around. Don't forget the 49 percent of Asians who voted for Prop 8. And the 53 percent of Latinos who fell in line for it too. And then there is the white vote in support of 8. Slightly under 50% percent of them, a group representing 63% percent of California voters, voted "Yes" on 8. Last I checked blacks held little sway over all of those groups.

So who did? For starters, the churches, religious leaders and advocacy groups in support of 8 were a very formidable force. Surveys showed religion played a major role in voter's decisions. Even No on 8 supporters have admitted that their camp was too complacent, arrogant and far to unorganized. I told a friend the day after the election, that I thought the arguments needed to be much stronger to answer the lingering questions Prop 8 boosters had leveled, disingenuously or not. Even I had some personal misgivings before casting my vote against.

Perhaps gay rights activists needed to better explain how a No vote wouldn't force churches to perform gay marriage ceremonies. And how a No vote wouldn't affect schools or teach children about gay marriage. Maybe deeper outreach in the black and brown communities could have changed some minds. What about fostering a stronger dialogue beyond the good side of town and in the neighborhoods where some of the unfortunate prejudice takes root?

No on 8 also needed a better defense against Obama's own stance on gay marriage. He is on record as wanting to allow the states to decide, even though he still supported full rights for same sex couples under civil unions. It's clear that anybody hoping to get elected this year needed a position that was generally acceptable to the red states. And Obama came out strongly against 8. But those nuances could have been much better explained to those who might be excused to follow suit with Obama's somewhat loose position. The anti-Prop 8 forces couldn't just rest on the hope that entrenched and arcane beliefs would be washed away without both a robust defense and offense.

In the coming weeks, those of us who are standing against Proposition 8--including, I'm sure, millions of blacks nationwide--are all going to need unity as we lobby, fight and advocate for either a reversal of this amendment or a new battle in 2010. There are very valid arguments against the presumptuous collapsing of Obama's win and the results of the Prop 8 vote, but we can table that for now. Regardless of your position, making scapegoats of blacks as a bunch of thankless homophobes is hardly playing the best hand.

Posted by Ronaldo | November 7, 2008 6:02 PM
303

For years gay rights activists have rather unfairly compared their struggle to the Black Civil Rights movement. Although there are some similarities, you really can't compare the two. This has angered a lot of Blacks, who believe they have suffered more, and their struggle shouldn't be compared with those of gays (you know, kind of like the "our holocaust was worse than yours" thing). But then again, you can hide your gayness; you can't hide your Blackness.

That said, I don't really think you can blame Blacks and Hispanics for tipping the scales in favor of Prop 8. White voters voted for it as well. Blacks tend to be Democrats, because it's the only party that really welcomes them. However, Blacks tend to be much more conservative than given credit, especially when it comes to homosexuality. My experience living here in the South, I've heard more homophobic remarks from Black people, particularly Black males, than I have from Whites. You really can't blame them, though, because Black churches seem to frown on homosexuality. I've heard stories from Black co-workers where pastors have referred to gays in rather derogatory terms, and even tried to out suspected gay church members sitting in the pews. Not to say that White churches are much more tolerant.

Everyone also seems to forget that not all Democrats, regardless of race, is particularly pro-gay. It seems to be the stereotype, since most activists are liberal, but as with Blacks, I have encountered a lot of homophobia with Democrats as well.

Posted by Kenny | November 7, 2008 7:55 PM
304

This is a sad situation. I think that we need to stick together and continue anti-racism training in the LGBT community and anti-homophobia training in the Black community. Both are present - the racism and the homophobia. Let's be real and honest about both. As a Black teacher, who fights for LGBT rights and does education DAILY with her Black H.S. students and an avid LGBT family activist, I am torn and saddened and pissed all the way around. Scapegoating doesn't help us here. Tearing each other down and further polarizing ourselves doesn't help either. It's time for honest communication, more education across the board, love, hope, and a commitment to rise above the fear, anger, and negativity. We can do it. Don't give up. It's hard work. Any civil rights issue is. Ignorance isn't combatted in a day. Let just stop eating away at each other, refocus, plan and try...

Posted by Tina the Sad One | November 7, 2008 8:28 PM
305

obviously, it's too damn hard for white gays to blame white straights for the failure of prop 8 to pass. wasn't it a statewide issue? is cali that black? and where are your comments about the latino vote?

it wasn't that long ago black gays were asked for multiple identification at gay bars. san francisco, philadelphia and new york had places notorious for racist entrance and serving policies as recently as the nineties. as aids killed off white gay men patronizing bath houses and sexclubs, owners finally started admitting black gay men because they needed the money.

white gays don't get that prop 8 was badly 'sold' as an "I WANT MY LUXURY" little kid whine in an election about raising the country up. you cali boys came off as selfish to the rest of us. you needed to enlist the entire progressive community by getting us on your side. instead, I suppose someone just thought they would vote to let their hairdresser or choir director get married.

where was the coalition? it didn't exist, was poorly explained, and now the gay white bees are buzzing mad, throwing a tantrum because white gays failed to get everyone on board.

next time you need a coalition to support or defeat a bill that other citizens in the state think you don't need as much as they need a roof over their head and food in their kid's stomach, build one.

Posted by kravitz | November 7, 2008 9:13 PM
306

It's nice to see that the tide of the comment thread has turned. I am encouraged by a lot of the good posts up there.

I also appreciate that you took the time to single out and respond to my comment in the original post. Still, I think when you throw around these incendiary arguments, you bear some responsibility for the way that your readers respond. Someone above analogized this to the way the McCain-Palin campaign should have been more accountable for its dog whistles about terrorism, socialism, and race once it became clear that its supporters were becoming violent, angry, and openly racist, anti-Muslim, and xenophobic.

Moreover, while I agree with you that gay and lesbian African Americans are the most common victims of homophobia in the African American community, I think you are being a bit disingenuous. In general, gay white men (and mainstream LGBT groups) have failed to protest African American homophobia until it affects them directly; their supposed concern is not truly on behalf of African Americans but on behalf of their own cohort.

Posted by Stephanie | November 7, 2008 10:47 PM
307

To Tina the Sad One:

You say "we need to stick together and continue anti-racism training in the LGBT community and anti-homophobia training in the Black community" and that "it's hard work. Any civil rights issue is."

Here is Problem Number One with that. And until we get past this, we will not get anywhere: Time and time again, Gay people are told by members of the black community that they take offense when we dare even use the term "civil rights" with respect to our situation. I have heard this from the mouths of dozen--no, HUNDREDS--of blacks over the years. It's as if they think the very concept of "civil rights" is not at all applicable to the discrimination that gays face. It's as if they to have a copyright on the term, and we are violating it. I've even heard many black people take offense when the terms "minority" and "discrimination" are applied to the problems gays face--and at that point, we have crossed into Jerry Falwell territory. It's as if they want us to apologize for our use of these words. It is bat-shit-crazy-making. And worst of all, it makes even the most basic communication ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE.

And I have no solution for it, other than to wait for a couple generations in the hope that it dies out. Either that, or next time, we simply overwhelm black voters at the polls. And to be perfectly frank, right now I am aiming for the latter.

Posted by Dan the White Fag | November 8, 2008 12:00 AM
308

It was something like 70% of blacks, 50something% of latinos and 30 to 40% of whites that voted for the ban on gay marriage. This is more to do with the Christian religion than anything else. I wish they would stop listening to these preachers and read the Bible themselves. This whole thing about man not laying with man all revolved around a certain ceremony not what the people did in their normal lives.Do people realize in the same Book men should be put to death for laying in the same bed with a woman on her monthly? Where is the outrage by Christians on this. I digress. Where is the love?

Posted by Nick | November 8, 2008 12:09 AM
309

AND THE NEWSPAPERS SAID RACISM IS OVER WITH THE ELECTION OF BARACK!

Why should minorities be surprised? Especially, Black people? Whites only need you as long as you're aligning yourself with their cause. If and when you're not, then they throw you under the bus. It is a mistake to think racism is determined by political affiliation. At least Republicans make their bigotry open; unlike the liberal who will smile in you face, but will talk about "your kind" when you ain't around.

No one has anything to say about White LGBTs that chanted racial slurs and threats @ LGBT'S of Color. Just Blackie.So much for being "down for the cause." It is so hypocritical for LGBTs especially Whites to complain about supposed Black Homophobia, when POC get virtually nil representation in the LGBT community and LGBTs think they have a right to do what they want because they're the "oppressed" white homosexual or the ni**ers of world, depending on which ones you ask.It's not racist to say so. Just like it is not racist to blame TEH BLACKIES for Prop8.Even though it would've most likely still passed without Black peoples votes!

Thank you disenchanted whites, for voting for Barack "Magic Negro" Obama.Glad you proud yourself on doing something to make Black people happy. The economy, joblessness and the war just has to play second fiddle to it all. Ur votes were not in vain!

Posted by Don't care about You and Yours; we learned | November 8, 2008 5:13 AM
310

If you think Savage made a generalization about blacks voting against gay marriages, then have a look at what media across the US had to say about the issue:

“Black voters helped ban gay marriage in California” - Detroit Free Press...

“Latin and Black Voters Instrumental to the Success of Proposition 8” - Associated Press...

“Most of California's Black Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban” – Washington Post...

“Black voters in Broward overwhelmingly supported amendment banning gay marriage” – Broward Politics...

“Black and Latino voters critical to same-sex marriage ban’s success” San Jose Mercury News...

“Exit poll: Black voters back Calif. marriage ban” – San Francisco Chronicle...

I guess it's "back of the bus" for gays in the US.

Posted by R Brandenburg | November 8, 2008 6:01 AM
311

If you think Savage made a generalization about blacks voting against gay marriages, then have a look at what media across the US had to say about the issue:

“Black voters helped ban gay marriage in California” - Detroit Free Press...

“Latin and Black Voters Instrumental to the Success of Proposition 8” - Associated Press...

“Most of California's Black Voters Backed Gay Marriage Ban” – Washington Post...

“Black voters in Broward overwhelmingly supported amendment banning gay marriage” – Broward Politics...

“Black and Latino voters critical to same-sex marriage ban’s success” San Jose Mercury News...

“Exit poll: Black voters back Calif. marriage ban” – San Francisco Chronicle...

I guess it's "back of the bus" for gays in the US.

Posted by R Brandenburg | November 8, 2008 6:01 AM
312

Some of us knew back when BJ was president that the Democrats were not on our side. They use you, then they abuse you. If you like it, vote Democrat.

Posted by Adam | November 8, 2008 7:24 AM
313

Welcome to the real world, Mr. Savage, where voters do not shake out along nice, neat lines.

Did you ever wonder why Obama took a platform in opposition to gay marriage? I'm sure he's not so bass-ackwards as to actually oppose it. It's because he knew he needed the black vote to win, and attitudes about gay marriage in the black community have been known for a long time.

Gays got sold down the river, in the meantime.

Posted by Tim | November 8, 2008 7:54 AM
314

You criticize someone - you are called a Rascist.

You criticize someone - you are called a Homophobe.

Sounds familiar.

Good luck with that,

tony
south haven,mi

Posted by Tony LaVanway | November 8, 2008 8:07 AM
315

Confusing thread. Blacks are the most racist demographic in the country. And you guys are surprised that they are also homophobic?

Posted by Fen | November 8, 2008 8:24 AM
316

60% of those who voted for Prop 8 were white.

Posted by Haddayr | November 8, 2008 8:33 AM
317

Dan, I think you need to eat your shorts.

What I read on Andrew Sullivan was that 27% of Gays voted for McCain. That is unbelievable. So the numbers of AAs who voted with gays is about the same as the number of stupid gays who voted for McCain.

I am so stunned that 27% of gays would vote for a man who wants to outlaw gay adoption, take away domestic partnership rights, not to mention ban gay marriage. What jerks we are, if we're voting 27% for these people. Astonishing.

Posted by Robin | November 8, 2008 8:37 AM
318

So how infantile is all this? We can only like someone if they agree with us. What is the matter with you? Mommy took away her titty too soon? Wahhh!

How can we tell that gay marriage is not a civil right? By just looking at how gays have reacted to their disappointments.

Posted by georgejjones | November 8, 2008 8:40 AM
319

First, let me state for the record that I'm a straight, black woman who happens to look in from time to time, on the musings of Mr. Savage. And I must say that I was slightly disconcerted by this post. I, like Dan, and many others, found my joy on election night, dampened by the news that prop 8 passed. I was also very distraught (but in no way surprised) to learn that a vast majority of African-Americans voted in favor of it. But for Dan to somehow, link his anger with pro prop 8 black voters to Obama, is simply ridiculous. I mean, let's be frank, people who are uneducated, and come from low income communities, tend to be more traditional and religious, i.e. they tend to be more homophobic. It just so happens that a larger percentage of African-Americans unfortunately fit into this category than other ethnic groups.

It's also a case of "we're not as bad as those guys". In other words people who feel that they have faced bigotry, don't want to be seen in any way to be partnering with other such groups. And may even feel a sordid sense of relief that there are others even more loathed than themselves.

Thirdly, there is another even more controversial issue, to be dealt with, of which the black vote on prop 8 is simply a minute symptom and another reason why Obama has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in California: The deep, dark (pun intended) secret of black America, which is that poor inner-city blacks, and the black middle and upper class, stand on opposite sides of a cultural schism. In fact I think it's safe to say that blacks who fit the Obama mold, educated, professional, well-to-do blacks are probably one of the most, if not the most progressive demographics in American society when it comes to everything, from gay marriage to reproductive rights etc.

The answer to this conundrum isn't to go all ghetto on black America, it's to work with enlightened blacks to improve the lives of everyone, because the better off blacks do, the better off gays will end up doing.

Posted by Keila | November 8, 2008 8:51 AM
320

I am a gay man. I enjoy reading your column. I am tired of the self hating white male, its easy to blame all of our problems on the "White Male". Also if i here one more brain washed obamazombie say they cried when he "Obama" became president elect I think im going to thow up!

Posted by jd | November 8, 2008 8:52 AM
321

Everyone says that Christians are motivated by hate, and that's wrong. We're motivated by trying to keep God's laws, clearly stated. And we're motivated by the fear that the next step will be gay cultural imperialism - i.e., forcing our Churches, via tax and zoning laws, to conduct gay weddings, which would be blasphemy of the highest order. And the smart commentators in these communities know exactly what I am talking about.

To my mind and a lot of people who treat gays with love and respect, gays have everything they could have wished for thirty years ago. Discrimination is gone, relationships are open, and people are judged by character traits outside of their sexuality. But with the mortal legal threat a chess move away, we Christians are forced to draw a line in the sand. Can't we just respect our current cultural borders?

Posted by Tim | November 8, 2008 8:54 AM
322

Welcome to the new hopechangey world of identity politics! Here's a primer to get you started:

African Americans are the "gold standard" of victim groups. When put in conflict with women, gays, Jews, the disabled, etc..., African American complaints always prevail. I'm stunned, frankly, that I have to remind you of this, Dan. When a gay person says something racist, they forfeit their right to victim status. They become just another non-black racist (JANBR), and racism by non-blacks is always the headliner. When a black person says something homophobic, their victim status still dominates, and... well, nothing more to say on that. Move along folks. Don't pick on the victim.

Sure, it's true that there are gazillions of African Americans in positions of power in America, and basically no out of the closet gays, but hey! Nobody said life was fair. This is the way the system was set up, and if you don't like it, move to Australia!

Posted by godfodder | November 8, 2008 9:06 AM
323

Let me put it this way. Had the AA community continued on with the "Change" mantra vis a vis Prop 8, we would be celebrating right now along with the rest of the Nation. I can't pin this entirely on the Mormon’s. We received about 52% of all white votes. How many AA's do you know attend the Mormon Church? This is now "they got theirs" and screw the rest of us when “Change” could have been a vertical win. I'm pissed.

Posted by Seymour | November 8, 2008 9:07 AM
324

Dan, Mormons aren't villains - we're just ordinary people like everyone else with apparently a different set of beliefs than you. If the homosexual community wants "marriage" as opposed to "civil unions" with the same rights, then apparently it's because it recognizes some special significance to that term - for us, that significance is spiritual, and it's why we oppose it (speaking for me, at least). I've been LDS my whole life, and I can assure you, there's nothing in the LDS church worth your hate - you may not agree with the doctrine or the teachings, but we're not out to "get" homosexuals or anyone else. We're just promoting the values we believe in. Is it wrong of us to vote or put our money to supporting our positions? I tell you, all of us are baffled by the hate in your posts and other anti-Mormon rants, cause we really don't have any secret evil motivations. Do you know any Mormons?
As for the 8 support, church leaders asked church members to contribute, as did many other religious and civic organizations. Apparently your hate is because Mormons actually followed the advice - in other words, because the LDS church was more effective than other religions or civic organizations. How does that make sense? And I'm pretty sure the LDS church didn't create the ads that apparently people are in a fuss about, any more than it created Mitt Romney's campaign ads or John McCain's ads or anything similar. Say what you want about our beliefs, but the LDS church takes the high road.

Posted by Andrew | November 8, 2008 9:19 AM
325

Does anyone here actually believe that Dan Savage eating his shorts is anything unusual?

Posted by PuterBoi | November 8, 2008 9:33 AM
326

I am copying this message below:

"We are smoking, drinking, drugging, and barebacking ourselves to death due to internalized homophobia, and, no doubt depression from being a downtrodden minority."

WHAT? How about the thesis that we are smoking, drinking, barebacking, etc. because we are shallow, pleasure seeking hedonists who have "internalized" the notion that we are not responsible for our actions?

As far as "imposing views on others, etc," why do I as a straight guy have to pay for free AIDS drugs and AIDS research for a disease that continues to overwhelming affect gays and drug users? Why do my kids have to be indoctrinated in the public schools to the glories of the gay lifestyle? This disease remains 100% preventable with some lifestyle changes and yet the demands of the "community" continue to grow apace, along with the public funding.

If prostate and lung cancer had enjoyed 1/2 the funding of HIV.....

The truth is -- most religions are hostile to homosexuality. If believers are asked to draw a line, they will generally go with their religious teachings. Not everybody is mushy-headed Episcopalian.

If someone else was bailing me out of my own bad choices, I would at least exhibit a little humility and gratitude. Yeah, I know, those are quaint notions.

Posted by Jack Jack | November 8, 2008 9:42 AM
327

Shame on you.

Posted by Gabe | November 8, 2008 9:57 AM
328

From way, WAY up the thread -

"Gay people aren't doormats you can use to help win an election and then forget like Clinton did."

Yes, you are. So are blacks.

I agree with you on Prop 8, and probably a lot of other things. But Gays, Blacks and to a slightly lesser extent Jews will vote Democrat 80-90% no matter what they do. They are a captive part of the party. They will be ignored and stepped on, and like a battered wife will go right back because they think they don't have a choice.

As long as they aren't in play, BOTH parties will treat them like crap.

Posted by Mendincope | November 8, 2008 10:17 AM
329

The answer to this conundrum isn't to go all ghetto on black America, it's to work with enlightened blacks to improve the lives of everyone, because the better off blacks do, the better off gays will end up doing.

Posted by Keila | November 8, 2008 8:51 AM

Keila,

Agreed, with the other (obvious) point being that insisting to non-whites (and I'm not talking just about black people) that gay marriage, let alone ANY marriage, is a "civil right" is a self-defeating strategy.

I believe that homophobia is a serious problem in this country.

Having said that, I don't think pushing for gay marriage will help to defeat homophobia. It will simply rally a conservative christian base, some of whom, but by no means all, are African American.

As for alienating non-whites with the "civil rights" claim, please tell me:

1) when were gay people asked to move to internment centers for the duration of WWII, as was done to Japanese-Americans? Pearl Harbor to the end of the war. We're talking YEARS, with serious financial repercussions, and loss of property, AND restriction of medical care.

2) does anyone "get" that when most people in this country hear the term "civil rights", the images that come to mind are: fire hoses turned on peaceful black demonstrators in the south, police dogs sinking their teeth into the legs of peaceful black demonstrators in the south, lynchings, the firebombing of a black church that killed four girls, THE POLL TAX, the literacy "tests" to qualify for blacks to vote in the south which were always rigged, and so on, and so on....

The aforementioned are serious civil rights issues. Voting is a civil rights issue. Being allowed to stay in your home is a civil rights issue. Why doesn't the gay community, which on the whole is usually so smart when it comes to semantics, get it?

As a straight, UNMARRIED, bi-racial woman, I BEG the gay community to come to its senses on how they present this issue. It is not entirely an issue of homophobia, although that surely played a part in the small margin by which Prop 8 won.

The fact is that marriage, for most non-whites, is not viewed as a civil rights issue, and should probably not be sold as such. Let's work instead to establish civil unions in 25 states, and at that point, gay marriage will be a shoo-in. But conflating marriage (the most loaded term in the book!) with civil rights, whether right or wrong, is creating a DEEP disconnect, and not just with black people and other non-whites. But with white people, too.

Why does everyone in my hometown of San Francisco find the idea of civil unions so disparaging? It works in France, for gay and straight couples; only the church performs "marriages". We should be working to get the state out of the marriage business. Not the other way around. Separation of church and state, remember?


Posted by eva | November 8, 2008 10:26 AM
330

As a patriarchal male white gay-bashing homophobe who has studied the gay art community academically and has a bit of sympathy, I feel inclined to offer my advice: It's the courts, stupid.

Compare two other initiatives that most liberal gay people would consider "civil rights": desegregation and abortion.

In the case of desegregation, the war was won in the streets and in the newspapers. People were convinced of the evils of segregation and the Jim Crow laws, outside of a swathe of the south. So when Eisenhower and JFK and the SCOTUS stepped in, it was to ratify the argument already won. Segregation has not "backslid" since.

Abortion, by contrast, was sprung on a populace opposed to it, and all it has done is led to a permanent wedge issue for conservative politicians, as well as an unregulated (because it is literally above the law) medical subculture that has spawned some truly horrific practices, which of course further keeps the issue alive.

Of course gay rights don't have the viscerally horrific drawback of abortion, but the point remains that you can't win a lasting argument in the courts, unless you expect the world to end before the next election.

Posted by hitnrun | November 8, 2008 10:27 AM
331

What's so surprising about blacks voting voting for Obama being homophobic.
  
It's all about race.
 
You know, like MLK said, judge a man by the color of his skin, not the quality of his character.

Posted by Bozak | November 8, 2008 10:38 AM
332


Well after reading your rant against Afro- American homophobia I have a question for the mainstream GLBT community and it’s leadership. Were you people in the Black Churches, social clubs, Frats and Soros, Black Christian Conferences, Black Newspapers or talking with young Black People and explaining to those auidences why this was a Civil Rights Issue and countering the Right Wing evangelical christian propgandists that sent representatives.

So don't blame Black Evangelicials for failing to vote that measure when the mainstream white gay community has utter contempt and hatred for Afro- Americans unless they are a Mapplethorpe - like sexual "mandingo butt and big black dick "fetish or seeing the "Disco Mamas at some 70's disco revival or the Shirley Q.Liquor shows where white gays and lesbians can revel in their racial angst. White Evangelicals did what the leadership of GLBT communities won't do and that is the 'grunt work' and it does not take money but shoe leather .

But the GLBT leadership were so quick to put grassroots and celebrity pressure on Disney, ABC, Shonda Rimes and the producers and advertisers to get rid of Isiah Washington but you couldn't muster the same for something much more important your human rights.

I would say no because the White Gay leadership like the GOP never engages Black Folks on any level unless it’s superficial. You pick token blacks who for the most part are BICO just like the right picks Shelby Steele, Thomas Sowell and the Reverend “Jesse Lee” Peterson. Your leadership never picks a Black Person who knows how to engage the average African- American. You want blacks who know their place in the pecking order so you get what you deserve when get want black memebers who won’t challenge the status quo.

You can’t complain about an amendment failing when you never did the hard work to engage the average Afro- American , as a hetrosexual A.A I never saw anyone from your group in Florida where there was also a similar ballot measure and the fact that you are Fucking Black or Latino guy/girl does not cut it, benign engagment with the average A.A. is the reason both ballot measures lost and it wouldn’t if James Baldwin or Dr. King came back from the dead to save your lame asses. I know what this is about, White Privilege on steroids you don't mind Black People entertaining you or when want Black ass and pussy to fuck or vice versa but when it comes to truly engaging that community you treat as a sexual receptable it's too much for many of you gay racists to actually have to do the real work of grassroots organizing.

Fine don't vote for Obama next time Savage, then you will have no rights because you just pissed off Black people of good will who wanted to defend your rights.

Posted by Eric Daniels | November 8, 2008 10:38 AM
333

Here in Florida we had a similar situation - amendment 2 - that had to pass by 60% of the vote and did easily.

It is pretty ironic that, as a mostly libertarian voter, I voted for McCain but voted against amendment 2. I don't imagine many voters in Florida voted as I did.

In the African-American neighborhoods in South Florida it was common to see yards with signs both for Obama and for amendment 2 ("Yes of 2!" they said). I thought it was a bit strange, but the support was overwhelming.

Posted by Mark | November 8, 2008 10:49 AM
334


Did you visit those black neighborhood Mark or are you just watching the news? I get tired of white men who think they know Afro- Americans when in Florida there are more Latinos than Blacks and I live in tampa so don't run that game one me.

Posted by Eric Daniels | November 8, 2008 10:57 AM
335

Once again the snide,bitter,stupid,cluelessness of spoiled white privileged BRATS rears it's ugly head!! And WTF BLACKS are the m-o-s-t racist?!! That is the BIGGEST crock of SHIT ever and since when have ANY of you bratty little assholes ever had to 'worry' about who you offend?!! Or worry about ANYBODY but your own whiny asses how typical of the arrogant bully who cries foul when their ass finally is kicked or the only child older sibling who now whines because new brothers and sisters have made his piece of the pie smaller. You assholes from DAY ONE have been all about whites only but when those SAME whites turn on you it's blame the best scapegoat not this time bitches!! As for that whole 'boycott' thing careful what you threaten when you can get it back twofold.

Posted by clean and sober | November 8, 2008 11:17 AM
336

Live by the collectivist sword, die by the collectivist sword.

Prop 8 failed in large part because Leftists are simply not credible advocates for individual rights, as hostile as they are to that very concept. Gay marriage is an individual right.

Prop 8, on the other hand, is DEMOCRACY IN ACTION, which the Left (at least the American version) loves to trumpet when it's any individual right they do not find politically expedient -- which is usually all of them.

So what do we get? Instead of pulling the knife out of their backs and repudiating the Left and its collectivist BS, they cling to it instead, and start putting knives in black backs instead.

There isn't a right winger to be seen, and yet nothing but the N- word and the F- word all over the place in West Hollywood?

Welcome to the Left's end-of-road. Brothers, you asked for it!

Posted by Seerak | November 8, 2008 11:23 AM
337

Easy Mr. Hostility. The area I live in - Delray Beach - has many black neighborhoods with residents of Haitian descent. You can't drive to our downtown without passing them. The roads through them were covered with signs supporting Obama, and while not as numerous, several supporting amendment 2.


Nobody is running a "game" on you but in your own head.

Posted by Mark | November 8, 2008 11:25 AM
338

the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans

Any evidence for this slur?

Or do you find any support for traditional notions of marriage to be inherently homophobic?

Posted by ThomasD | November 8, 2008 11:34 AM
339

As someone who is in a comited sexual relationship with his grandfather, I am outraged that a bunch of negroids voted to keep us from marrying. Bigots.

Posted by ccoffer | November 8, 2008 11:46 AM
340

Hey, maybe you can print all the Homophobic black folks' addresses in your free paper. That will teach them... The Whole World Ain't Seattle, Savage. Get used to it.

Posted by J.M. | November 8, 2008 12:05 PM
341

Dan Savage is a privileged, pale skinned narcissist.

However, black people wont target him like gays did Isiah Washington. We're not going to organize, or protest, to keep him unemployed, or run out of town on a third rail, like they've done to Washington.

But then again, who is this guy?

Why would we care about his fickle stupidity and racism? I don't think about gay/lesbian issues or people unless I hear or read about it. I do know I am bored with being accused of hating / fearing them.

I bet if a decent poll was held, black people would not want gays to be discriminated in any manner that they understand: housing, employment, etc. However, marriage might never be one of those issues. Asking someone if marriage is between a man and a woman will prompt a "Yes."

Getting any community to think about marriage as something else would require persuasion. It's obvious from some gays that there's no interest in persuasion. So be it. I'm sure they can achieve what they want without black people.

In America, this how it works for white media people, its always pitting blacks vs. everybody else. It's been the case since our ancestors were dragged in chains to the bloody "New World."

Posted by Betty Chambers | November 8, 2008 12:37 PM
342

(quote Mark)"Easy Mr. Hostility. The area I live in - Delray Beach - has many black neighborhoods with residents of Haitian descent. You can't drive to our downtown without passing them. The roads through them were covered with signs supporting Obama, and while not as numerous, several supporting amendment 2. "


Nobody is running a "game" on you but in your own head

I am not angry Mark you seem to be the bitter overdramtic "GAY QUEEN" in this debate, and if you want to call Afro- Americans homophobic then prove it instead of ranting like a pig looking for a piece of shit to eat. Has any Black Person killed or harassed any of your friends for being "gay"? And you also mistated a fact that there were some black houses with Prop 2 and Obama signs. At least lie better next time and say some black or Haitian person beat you up and craved "faggot" on your person.

I may have respected the fact you were at least trying to lie instead of the typical BS that goes for racial sterotyping.

Posted by Eric Daniels | November 8, 2008 1:12 PM
343

It is nice to see Savage for who he really is which is a bigot every bit as much as any member of the Klan. It is easy to demonize the LDS church but ignore every other faith. Much as the Klan rails against Catholics Savage goes after Mormons. Acceptance and tolerance could be better preached by someone with less obvious hate in his heart. His constant jabs at magic underwear would not be tolerated if he were making similiar jabs at orthodox jews because that sort of religious insult is not tolerated by the left. The way to change hearts is not to attack hatefully.

Posted by rolly | November 8, 2008 1:15 PM
344

As an AA CA voter in favor of marriage equality for ALL, I find many of these postings offensive. Yes, it is deeply saddening that a disproportionate amount of AA's voted Yes on prop. 8. Yes, this reflects a level of ignorance within the AA community. However, it is equally as ignorant for the LGBT community to ignore the complex issues surrounding the relations between AAs and LGBTs. This is an opportunity for the LGBT community to initiate educational outreach to AAs.

It is evident that the LGBT community has taken for granted the minority status of AAs, in assuming that they "get it". AA's obviously do not "get it". In a community where LGBT AA are ashamed to come-out to their families, clearly there are deeper issues here. LGBT AAs are further marginalized within an already marginalized group. What is the LGBT community doing specifically to address their needs? What is being done to educate the AA community as a whole?

Also relevant, is to note that 87% of CA Republican (and I would guess a fraction of a percentage of them are AA) voted YES on prop. 8. Why is no one talking about this? This is the predominant vote. AAs in CA make up only 6% of the voters!

Apparently, the Yes on prop. 8 proponents were able to connect with AA voters. The LGBT community should not turn this devastating loss into racial bashing. This will only further ostracize and alienate AA voters. Proactive and constructive approaches should be pursued to educate AAs and not take their vote for granted.

Some bloggers have commented that taking on this initiative would be a daunting task. I say, yes it will be if you alienate sympathetic AA voters, who would be vital to outreach initiatives within the AA community.

Posted by Kady | November 8, 2008 1:15 PM
345

Savage never fails to come up to the mark. Whenever it is possible to go deeper into douchebaggery, Savage is always there filling up the bag and squeezing down hard.

Way to go, Dan. If you ever decide to self-identify beyond the bathroom, let us know.

Posted by vanderleun | November 8, 2008 1:19 PM
346

(QUOTE BETTY CHAMERS)Dan Savage is a privileged, pale skinned narcissist.

However, black people wont target him like gays did Isiah Washington. We're not going to organize, or protest, to keep him unemployed, or run out of town on a third rail, like they've done to Washington.

But then again, who is this guy?

Why would we care about his fickle stupidity and racism? I don't think about gay/lesbian issues or people unless I hear or read about it. I do know I am bored with being accused of hating / fearing them.

I bet if a decent poll was held, black people would not want gays to be discriminated in any manner that they understand: housing, employment, etc.

co-sign Betty but these people are so arrogant and racist they think every Black Person wants to rape, pillage and kill gays and lesbians. You don't impress us in any way and are starting to provide a backlash amongst progressive African- Americans.

Posted by Eric Daniels | November 8, 2008 1:19 PM
347

the campaign behind prop 8 was terrible. and it deserves much of the blame because it was ran with the same deceitful tactics that the yes campaign was running (well, we weren’t trying to take away rights but we were concealing what this vote is really about) the real problem was instead of making this about "gay marriage" we tried to do everything in their power to say it was everything but gay marriage. it’s marriage. marriage. a fundamental right.

an even bigger problem is we let progressive candidates like barack obama get away with saying "i don't support gay marriage but i'm against prop 8" no wonder barack obama only got 75% of the glbt vote this time around instead of 90%. and what makes it worse is barack is not going to touch this with a 100 foot pole after all the flack that clinton took for gays in the military.

the sad fact of all this is it would be best to try to keep all this frustration inside for the next two years when we can overturn it (we don't want the courts to do this)...

and i happen to be someone with mormon friends, and while i think they can be some of the kindest people on earth, their churh is run like a corporation without accountability. they don't have to "hate" gays personally, but they'll stay committed and continue to support their leadership no matter what it does. and i don't recommend attacking the mormons, but money talks. and the only way we get them to say out of our state next time around is to make it clear that the money is coming from their church. and as a catholic myself who gave money to the knights of columbus in the past i can't wait to attend a meeting and tell them to start worrying about our own priests and worry about our own communities and stop worrying about california nonsense:)

Posted by the guy | November 8, 2008 1:29 PM
348

So this is equality as African-Americans would have it?

I wonder what other joys are in store for us during the next four years.

Posted by HeartRabbit | November 8, 2008 1:59 PM
349

Guess we'll just have to mobilize more youth vote next time to eradicate the archaic fools who thought it was hip to vote to enfranchise blacks, but anti-christian to disenfranchise gays.

Nearly all the kids I know are far more enlightened than their parents on these basic questions of humanity.

Posted by steve | November 8, 2008 2:01 PM
350

(QUOTE Heartrabbit) So this is equality as African-Americans would have it?

I wonder what other joys are in store for us during the next four years.

Wer'e going to exterminate every gay and lesbian so we can purify the earth led by Louis Farrakhan and Ice Cube. And next we will kill the mixed couples and their half- breed children and then finish it off with the cripples and then Kill all the white trash. And then I will be in Black Heaven.

Is that the sterotype you want of us HeartRabbit fine, but if you and Savage want to know who's responsible for Black Homophobia when gay racist whites like you point two fingers there are 3 pointing right back at ya!!!

Posted by Eric Daniels | November 8, 2008 2:20 PM
351

>Is that the sterotype you want of us HeartRabbit fine, but if you and Savage want to know who's responsible for Black Homophobia when gay racist whites like you point two fingers there are 3 pointing right back at ya!!!

Eric,

I sincerely apologize to you and everyone else reading this board for my comment. It was hurtful and inflammatory, and I'm truly sorry.

If nothing else, it's an illustration of how immensely hurt I am by Proposition 8. At the moment I feel completely hopeless. Hopeless and forgotten.

I do feel that, in the midst of the deserved celebration for electing our first black president,

Posted by HeartRabbit | November 8, 2008 2:36 PM
352

it's religion stupid.

Posted by dont LIE with statistics | November 8, 2008 2:47 PM
353

More and more I am reminded that deep down there really is very little difference between Dan Savage and Michael Savage.

Posted by vanderleun | November 8, 2008 2:49 PM
354

One thing that I found helpful, I got into a discussion with a black woman at work who said our struggle is nothing like the black struggle. A lot of people are just ignorant about how gay people were treated, since it isn't taught in history class as is the struggle for black equality.

Once I pointed out that gay people were lobotomized in mental institutions and arrested merely for associating with one another, she saw my point.

Posted by John | November 8, 2008 2:53 PM
355

Well we have just realized that there is very little solidarity between minority groups when it comes to the civil rights movement. The prevailing attitude now is, "Well, wow, we got our black President. Thanks for your help, but now you can go fuck yourselves." We should be incredibly infuriated at the complete lack of support received from the black community. They of all people should understand how minorities need to be protected. Instead, it looks like they don't really care about civil rights for minorities; just civil rights for blacks. All other minorities can fend for themselves.

I also think Obama will be bad for gay people. I've already heard too many times, "Well we lost on Prop 8, but don't lose hope. If we can elect Barack Obama, we can do anything, it's only a matter of time." What a cop-out! That's going to be the stock line we constantly hear whenever a minority group (except the black community) suffers a set back. He's not going to do anything for us.

Listen up Republicans: go after the gay vote. I'll happily give my vote to you next time if you get on the right side of this issue.

Posted by Mike | November 8, 2008 3:54 PM
356

America Unite---YAWN.

Any gay guys want to dance with Obama at the Inaug?

How about you Dan?

Maybe Bill Maher can arrange it.

What would you whisper in his ear?

If there are queens doing the party it could be fierce....esp. on the middle-of-the-road blacks from CA.

Posted by sanfranciso9 | November 8, 2008 3:55 PM
357

You can tell a lot about a person or a group by those who attack that person or group. And to be attacked by certain people or groups is not always a bad thing. Mormons probably wear as a badge of honor all of the bashing by the foaming-at-the-mouth gay activist types & their supporters.

I almost feel that certain Evangelicals, Baptists, and such are probably quite jealous. A lot of them don't like Mormons either. And they are all just as opposed to gay marriage as Mormons. It just appears that in the Prop 8 race, the Mormons seem to be the group that did the best in putting their money where their mouth is.

Let's not forget though that gay marriage bans have been passed by voters throughout the United States - including in Arizona & in Florida on Tuesday. And in Florida, Constitutional Amendments need 60% to pass.

I would think that those who think they are gay should be more upset at Baptists & voters in Arkansas than Mormons anyway, because Arkansas voters overwhelmingly approved a voter initiative the bans gay people from adopting by making sure that any person who adopts a child is married.

I bet many Mormons could even see scenarios where allowing a gay person to adopt a child is better than having nobody take care of the child at all.

But of course, Mormons are the only enemy for those who think they are gay. And according to the genius who wrote this post Blacks are also the enemy because they also voted their convictions in California.

The only bigotry I've seen since the Election is from people who think they are gay & their supporters bashing Mormons for fighting for what they believe is clearly stated in the Bible.

Posted by Tyler M | November 8, 2008 3:56 PM
358

Dear Mr. Savage,

That post is mighty white of you. I am just stunned. As a black gay man, living in SF, I am not going to sit idly by while white gay men scapegoat and demonize my people no matter what you think we have done. I worked to help defeat prop. 8. A handful of white bigots my ass. How the hell would you know? You try living in a city with a gay scene dominated by the issues and concerns of white gay men the exclusion of everyone else. If you think this is winning converts you are sorely mistaken. You are actually loosing a lot of Black Gay Men like me. As to white gay bigots vs. AA homophobia. The comparison misses the point and it is one frankly, you have no point of personal reference to make--it's insulting. Your post have unfortunately proved many black gay mens' suspicion; when push come to shove you choose to push us, black people, under the bus. This frenzy of blame and recrimination must cease. This is incredibly irresponsible of you and I for one will never forget it. If you think this is not resonating in the black gay community; think again. We have received numerous emails re: the larger white gay community's attempt to blame us for this.

Posted by V-FURST | November 8, 2008 5:32 PM
359

Dear Mr. Savage,

That post is mighty white of you. I am just stunned. As a black gay man, living in SF, I am not going to sit idly by while white gay men scapegoat and demonize my people no matter what you think we have done. I worked to help defeat prop. 8. A handful of white bigots my ass. How the hell would you know? You try living in a city with a gay scene dominated by the issues and concerns of white gay men the exclusion of everyone else. If you think this is winning converts you are sorely mistaken. You are actually loosing a lot of Black Gay Men like me. As to white gay bigots vs. AA homophobia. The comparison misses the point and it is one frankly, you have no point of personal reference to make--it's insulting. Your post have unfortunately proved many black gay mens' suspicion; when push come to shove you choose to push us, black people, under the bus. This frenzy of blame and recrimination must cease. This is incredibly irresponsible of you and I for one will never forget it. If you think this is not resonating in the black gay community; think again. We have received numerous emails re: the larger white gay community's attempt to blame us for this.

Posted by V-FURST | November 8, 2008 5:33 PM
360

Dear Mr. Savage,

That post is mighty white of you. I am just stunned. As a black gay man, living in SF, I am not going to sit idly by while white gay men scapegoat and demonize my people no matter what you think we have done. I worked to help defeat prop. 8. A handful of white bigots my ass. How the hell would you know? You try living in a city with a gay scene dominated by the issues and concerns of white gay men the exclusion of everyone else. If you think this is winning converts you are sorely mistaken. You are actually loosing a lot of Black Gay Men like me. As to white gay bigots vs. AA homophobia. The comparison misses the point and it is one frankly, you have no point of personal reference to make--it's insulting. Your post have unfortunately proved many black gay mens' suspicion; when push come to shove you choose to push us, black people, under the bus. This frenzy of blame and recrimination must cease. This is incredibly irresponsible of you and I for one will never forget it. If you think this is not resonating in the black gay community; think again. We have received numerous emails re: the larger white gay community's attempt to blame us for this.

Posted by V-FURST | November 8, 2008 5:33 PM
361

I THOUGHT CALIFORNIA BANNED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

Posted by KEMETNETERS | November 8, 2008 5:42 PM
362

In large measure it did, but in similar large measure institutions like UCLA are ignoring the ban.

Posted by vanderleun | November 8, 2008 6:04 PM
363

As for V-First, welcome to the new awareness that toads like Savage and his ilk have just been using you for years.

Posted by vanderleun | November 8, 2008 6:06 PM
364

Frankly, I'm not terribly surprised by the vitriol being spewed in this thread by (understandably) frustrated gay whites and supporters of gay rights. I've noticed that race is what things generally end up boiling down to. It's been said repeatedly throughout this thread but it bears repeating: Black folks are generally a great deal more religious (and religiously conservative) than other groups. If you compare the "70%!" stat about which so many of you are screaming with the voting patterns of religious conservatives, I'm certain you would find a similar percentage. But you all just can't avoid envisioning Negroes keeping you oppressed, can you?

And Mr. Savage: I find it interesting that you are suddenly concerned about how "Black Homophobia" affects GLBT African-Americans, when you've shown zero interest in the subject up until now. Your completely pathetic attempt to cocoon yourself from criticism by claiming that you're starting dialogue notwithstanding, I'm not buying it. Frankly, believe it or not, this discussion has been taking place among African-Americans for decades. We certainly don't need the likes of you to get shit going.

Posted by Another Conflict Theorist | November 8, 2008 6:22 PM
365

Mike you're crazy! I as a POC, did not come to your front door and beg you to vote for Obama. So I, nor the rest of the POC don't owe you! I would have thought you cast your vote for Obama because he was right man for the job, not because you felt like you were doing something for US.

The white LGBT community never engages minorities, you guys just think that what new venture you decide to embark on minorities should be behind you 100%. Well you know what? It takes work! That means coming out of your private enclaves and reaching out all the time! Not just when you need VOTES! Also recognize, no matter how much you try to compare; your plight is not one and the same.

.LGBTs Fix your own racist communities before you try to demonize minorities. LGBTs are not just whites! But you would never know because POC don't get any representation!

.What happened in West Hollywood was not spur of the moment outburst, that was what you white "Liberals" have always wanted to say.

.And Mike, Hatians in Delray often live in impoverished neighborhoods, with sometimes up 5 people living in one house.Not many of them know what the hell Prop 8 or Florida Amendment 2, is! Half of them barely speak conversational English, so your point is moot! Here is a tidbit for you: If you open up your SunSentinel or Palm Beach Post during election year you will sometimes see ads looking for bi-lingual campaign volunteers that speak Spanish or Creole. These people go to the house of Mexicans and Haitians that like I said barely speak English, and coax them into letting them put the sign in their yards. The Haitian nor Mexican residents rarely say no, because they fear being deported because their Green Card has expired, which is more common than the ones without one.

The News keeps reporting racism is over with President Elect Obama. Well you know what? Those reporters don't look like me; they look white. And no POC I know believe the hype!

Posted by The Religion was learned from You! | November 8, 2008 6:27 PM
366

Addressing race isn't always a big deal. Addressing race is always a big deal when it involves African Americans. Not blacks, but African Americans. Always.

You can't even point out a simple fact in the matter without being construed as racist. You just can't.

Posted by Mr. Poe | November 8, 2008 6:36 PM
367

what a fucking mistake this post was. you realize you're citing exit poll data here, right? can anyone remember how inaccurate exit polls have been?

but that's not even the issue. you're trying to fight bigotry with bigotry, WTF is wrong with you?!

Posted by N.R. | November 8, 2008 7:00 PM
368

Another thing about your comment futher goes to illustrate how clueless you with are. You said you drive pass African-American neighborhoods, then you said Haitians. That means you don't know anything about these people but you know how to use them as an example, so you can make a point about your gay rights.

Well let me you tell this, AA's and Haitians may share a skin color and a history of Slavery, but that is all.Haitians don't consider themselves AA and AA's don't consider them AA. The Haitians do not frequent the same churches as AA's, the majority are Catholic, with few being baptist. They live in the same neighborhoods but they are strangers. They do not eat the same food or rarely listen to the same music.They rarely share a culture with AA.The ones that do are typically young teenagers. Their culture has a different idea altogether regarding Homosexuals. When you guys start to recognize shit like this instead thinking all people with dark skin are a like; the better off everyone will be.

Posted by So we're all the same? | November 8, 2008 7:03 PM
369

This is just sad. First blacks are blamed for the credit crisis and now we see how the LGBT community really feels about us.First you take us for granted and then you take some exit polls and use it to relay your true feelings. did you guys make your case to the AA community. I know that when it was explained a lot of my friends who were against gay marriage understood what was at stake. If dan savage and others knew anything about the AA community they would not have been surprised about how people voted.

Posted by just Sad | November 8, 2008 7:21 PM
370

While I am quite saddened by the passage of Prop 8, I am also surprised by the suggestion that 70% of African Americans voting for the ban was of major significance. African Americans are only 6% of the population in California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California#Population). That doesn't even include those who are unable to vote for whatever reason. How can less than 6% of the California population be such a HUGE contributor to the ban on gay marriage?

(I was not able to read all of the comments, so excuse me if I am repeating something that has already been said.)

Posted by Nya | November 8, 2008 8:12 PM
371

I am a straight Republican who voted AGAINST Prop 8, and tried to convince fellow Republicans to do the same. The person who says that Log Cabin Republicans are racist is demonstrating the best way to alienate Republicans and ensure that they will always fail to see gay rights as a civil rights issue. After all, if people are going to be called bigoted and racist, no matter what they do, so long as they're members of a particular party, there's much less of a palatable opportunity to hear the reasoned arguments that could replace the vicious attacks. I say, reach out to Republicans (who, in California, tend to lean more socially liberal than do Republicans in many other states- our state voted against parental notification, as well as for medical marijuana) instead of bashing them, and things might go a different way next time.

Posted by Republican | November 8, 2008 8:16 PM
372

So let me get this straight: gay people are blaming black people for the ban on gay marriage and are demanding loyalty because of Obama being elected? Were gay people Obama's margin of victory in CA or any other state for that matter? Were black people the only ones that voted for Prop 8 in CA? You have got to be kidding me with this shit. It is a shame that Prop 8 was passed, but life is not quid pro quo. Some of the comments indicating that gays will not vote for Obama's re-election unless the government passes federal legislation on civil unions are just ignorant. He's already said he thinks it's a state issue and that he's not for taking away the rights of individuals at the state constitutional level. Maybe gays should keep their votes if they come at a cost. I mean this is the group who says they want tolerance without preconditions, but place preconditions on candidates that don't serve their agenda.

And the racists name calling? Didn't a black actor lose his job a few years ago for calling a fellow actor an offensive term for gays? Isn't that a double standard?

This election is turning out to be historic for the wrong reasons. The guy preached for twenty months about unity, but everyone's starting to divide up into factions. Maybe everyone needs to examine their level of intolerance before they start using inflammatory language and blaming others for their lot in life.

Posted by Nazgul | November 8, 2008 8:26 PM
373

You know, Dan, you're a straight-out racist fuck.

You're why it's hell to be queer and black in this town. Not you alone, though your bile-filled shittings have altered the course of the Stranger from cool local alterna-rag to "oh my god it's as bad as the Weekly", but because you cheer on your crowd of racist fratclones who think being queer is so radical (in seattle? please...) but being black is somehow bad and dirty and awful.

Posted by algormortis | November 8, 2008 10:00 PM
374

Another thing, I just checked out the LA Times. It says that the No on 8 campaign actually raised more than the Yes on 8 campaign. Not by a lot, but it looks like if the No Campaign lost, it was their own fault & not the fault of Blacks or Mormons per say. It almost sounds like the No on 8 people are just a bunch of sore losers.

Regardless of the money race, a number of Californians may have supported Prop. 8 on Constitutional grounds alone. They may have voted to disallow the judicial fiat that passed when the California Supreme Court broke the law by overriding the will of the California people who had already passed a Defense of Marriage Initiative. There was nothing stopping supporters of gay marriage in California from trying to pass an amendment to the CA Constitution allowing gay marriage. Instead, those supporters went around the will of the people & showed a complete disregard for our principles of democracy.

I also believe that people who think they are gay are going way overboard in thinking that it was just Mormons & Blacks to blame for their defeat on Prop 8. There is an extremely large number of people - even in California - who are uncomfortable homosexual behavior. Many of these people would like nothing more than to help gays seek help & find ways to get over their urges. A great number of religious people see homosexual behavior as a major sin. What those people fear is that if homosexual marriage is legalized then an extremely immoral behavior would in turn be legitimized by the government.

This fight is far from over. Opponents of gay marriage are still waiting & preparing for legal challenges @ all levels. But for now, gay marriage proponents need to stop looking like sore losers if they want to advance their cause at all.

Posted by Tyler M | November 8, 2008 11:17 PM
375


"(QUOTE mr poe) Addressing race isn't always a big deal. Addressing race is always a big deal when it involves African Americans. Not blacks, but African Americans. Always.

You can't even point out a simple fact in the matter without being construed as racist. You just can't."

Well maybe Mr. Poe if you weren't being a typical white condescending Asshole like Savage race can be discussed honestly. Anytime White Progressives don't get their way they bitch,whine and moan just White Women and GLBT Racist Whites think it's the Blacks fault that Hillary Clinton lost to Barack Obama lost when instead of looking at the fact she ran a bad campaign from the start, and those wonderful tolerant white conservatives who blame Blacks for crime, racism, the housing crisis and for voting in racial solidarity when White Males have voted Republican at a 88 percent clip since 1968. Let's see here according to Savage and his gay white minions and fellow white travlers Afro- Americans are responsible for.....

1. Racism
2. Homophobia
3. Sexism
4. The Housing Crisis
5. Crime
6. Welfare
7. Not winning the war on terror
8. Hating America
9. Racially Intolerant
10.Kills Gays and Lesbians
11.And not voting the "right way" on Props 2&8

I did not know that 800,000 Blacks in a multicultural California out of five million other people who approved the measure had so much power and Mark why don't you blame Hispanics, older retired whites and evangelicals who more than double the Black population in Florida who voted for that measure exceeding the 60% needed. Spare me your righteous racist indigination and vote Republican, you people are so choked up by your white privlege it's patheic.

Posted by Eric Daniels | November 9, 2008 3:09 AM
376

It's a pity to see religion manipulated to justify discrimination. Looks like we need to be more vocal, more in your face, more judicious with our campaign contributions, more demanding in holding our so called supporters accountable, etc...

Why not start by asking Pres-elect Obama to outline a realistic timetable for ending discriminatory anti-LGBT FEDERAL legislation related to social security, military and immigration?

Neither has anything to do with marriage, and both Obama and Biden support these reforms. So let's ask them to tell us when they plan to take action.

Posted by John Davison | November 9, 2008 4:56 AM
377

It's a pity to see religion manipulated to justify discrimination. Looks like we need to be more vocal, more in your face, more judicious with our campaign contributions, more demanding in holding our so called supporters accountable, etc...

Why not start by asking Pres-elect Obama to outline a realistic timetable for ending discriminatory anti-LGBT FEDERAL legislation related to social security, military and immigration?

Neither has anything to do with marriage, and both Obama and Biden support these reforms. So let's ask them to tell us when they plan to take action.

Posted by John | November 9, 2008 4:56 AM
378

Your blog post makes the most ridculous arguments. First of all, you imply that blacks owe white gay people something because many of them (we assume) voted for Obama. I thought you voted for Obama for President of the United States not to give black people a gift. If you see Obama largely as a gift to blacks then you are part of the white gay racism that you deny exists.

Second, although you give exit polling data for the percentage of each group that voted for the measure, you do not discuss the proportion of that group to the overall electorate. White voters basically split on the issue. With sampling error, they could have even favored it as a majority. We just do not know. But most polls show that 49% of whites voted for it. Because they are over 60% of the California electorate, it only took a few more votes to put it over the top. Latinos were 18% of the vote, and they, like blacks, favored the measure. Blacks were only 10% of the vote. Asian Americans were 8 percent, and they basically tied in opposing and supporting it too. An "other" race category was 3% of the electorate, and this group voted for the measure 53%.

Finally, you make the horrible mistake of simply isolating race as the correlative factor rather than other possibilities. If you asked whether "very religious" people supported the measure, the response is overwhelmingly "yes." If you asked blacks how many of them are very religious, the response is overwhelmingly yes. Blacks and Latinos are more religious than other demographics in the state, which explains their vote. By isolating race when other factors are clearly present -- and when removing the "yes" votes from all other racial groups could have defeated the measure as well -- looks a bit suspicious.

http://dissentingjustice.blogspot.com/2008/11/black-californians-and-proposition-8-is.html

Posted by tony smith | November 9, 2008 6:21 AM
379

It is good that that prop 8 passed. The institution of marriage needs to be protected. Gays shouldn't be able to marry, like regular folks do in churches. The courts in CA tried to over reach and ram down the american people gay marriage. Marriage is a religious function and it shouldn't be made into an issue by gays.

Posted by promccain | November 9, 2008 6:24 AM
380

So when all goes wrong I see you resort to the typical white strategy of blaming a black person or in this case black people. Fine. Two can play that game. Had Obama lost the presidency I would have blamed it on white gays as more of you voted for John Kerry in 2004 than Obama in 2008.


Instead of the gay community owning the catastrophic failure of a PISS-POOR no-on-8 campaign, they decide to take the Susan Smith, Charles Stuart, Ashley Todd way out. As a black gay man I am just as outraged as you are at this year's election defeats, but I own those defeats. Latinos, Asians, Arabs, and Indians, voted in disproportionate numbers for 8; are you going to do 6 more blog posts about them as well. Clearly, gays, black and white, did not strategize enough to defeat the ban.


However, if you EVER plan to get the ban overturned, you had better start apologizing to black people. Trust me, we outnumber gays as an electorate (an active electorate) and we have very long memories. The courts can keep intervening if they want, but if this gets to the Supreme Court, as it is now things will not go in our favor (think about how the court handed DC its ass regarding the gun ban). You should be spending your time trying to create allies within the black community instead of alienating 10% of the CA electorate.

Posted by BLKSeaGoat | November 9, 2008 6:34 AM
381

I am flabbergasted by the suddent depression and disappointment. for those of you who voted in BO, you really should have seeen this coming. you just voted in the most left leaning president this country has ever seen and he does not support gay marriage!!!! hello? of course he does not because it is not expedient for him because of homophobia in the black community. he is a politician with a captial "P" - not sure why this was not seen by so many. gays, you better hope your gay marriage thing becomes expeident for him some day.

Posted by candy o | November 9, 2008 8:05 AM
382

Gays and Lesbians were the only group which gave John Kerry more votes than they gave Barack Obama.

Is this a mutual problem also considering John McCain's politics?

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/obama-outperforms-kerry-among-virtually.html

Posted by silverfan | November 9, 2008 8:32 AM
383

Silverfan-

Good point. Many people who think that they are gay or who believe that they are lesbians are also extremely bigoted. What is the reaction by people who think they are gay when somebody grows up, leaves their fold & realizes that he or she really wasn't gay in the first place? There are a large number of people who think they are gay who don't even believe it's possible. To many people who believe they are gay the idea that there are former gays or that a person can be cured or control his or her gay tendencies is blasphemous.

Well, there are also people who don't think gays are really gay. There are people who believe that homosexuality is just a sexual mental disorder. Those people would not vote for gay marriage just like they would not vote for incest marriage or molestation marriage. To these people, people who think they are gay just need help. To those people, it's too bad that the American Psychological Association incorrectly declassified homosexuality from being a sexual mental disorder.

Posted by Tyler M | November 9, 2008 9:54 AM
384

We Muslims voted against Prop 8 too. Are you calling us racist. Perhaps we can adjust your thinking.

Posted by Abdul | November 9, 2008 10:17 AM
385

Seventy percent is a pretty large percentage, true. You know what it isn't? One hundred percent. Blaming African Americans for Prop 8 as though they were some sort of monolith is an insult to the one in three African Americans who voted against it.

Californians, statistically speaking, every third African American you meet voted against Prop 8. Are you seriously prepared to discriminate against all African Americans based on those kinds of odds?

And for every thousand African Americans who've read this vitriol--both the original post and a number of the comments--I'd be willing to bet that well over nine hundred of them voted against Prop 8. Dan Savage's writing doesn't play too well to the homophobes, you know? Sadly, it seems to play all too well to the racists.

Posted by Chandra | November 9, 2008 12:04 PM
386

#385. Are you seriously prepared to discriminate against all African Americans based on those kinds of odds?

Who has said we should do this?

Posted by Tracy | November 9, 2008 1:05 PM
387

#386. Who has said we should do this?

People here in the comments and elsewhere who've said that they've "become" racist after being color blind; that they've lost interest in doing outreach to African American communities; that they're less inclined to support legislation that benefits African Americans and Latinos because of the Prop 8 result.

I'd also chalk up the argument that, since African Americans can't be trusted with the right to vote, perhaps they ought to be denied that right, to hyperbole that nonetheless serves to highlight the underlying problem.

Posted by Chandra | November 9, 2008 2:23 PM
388

Speaking as a conservative libertarian type who doesn't care either way if homosexuals are allowed to marry, it does look like being on the lefty plantation bought you guys....nothing. If your vote is assured for any idiot billionaire gigolo or conman the left propels forward, then why should they use their political capital to help reach your goals? The answer is, there is no reason. A little rhetoric and some empty promises and you guys give it up without even getting paid up front!

Might want to think about that a bit.

Posted by iconoclast | November 9, 2008 3:05 PM
389

Mr. Savage,

I give you the following links and text to express my utter disgust at the idiotic idea that black voters are to blame for Prop 8 passing in CA. Did you ignore the Mormon donations to help pass it? Have you ignored the fact that even if EVERY single black voter in CA had voted yes it would not have had enough votes to pass on it's own? Are you ignoring the fact that there are POC in the community who did not vote yes on 8?

I challenge you to actually do some fact checking instead of painting all blacks with a wide brush of homophobia and church values. I DO NOT fit that stereotype and am offended that you could paint POC with the monolithic brush rather than look at who really pushed for YES on 8.

I don't even live in CA and pushed for NO on 8, and I sincerely doubt every single black person in CA is to blame for this heinous measure passing. A little stat for you:

"California is 43.1% white, 35.9% latino or hispanic, and 6.7% black (source=http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html). So even if every single black and latino person in the state voted Yes on 8, that doesn't actually equal the 52% who voted for it." Source is Live journaler sparkymonster)

So the next time you decide to wield finger to keyboard, I suggest you take a moment and think about what you are about to publish, since your pronouncement of blame on the POC community in CA has carried far, wide and is making you out to be a poor journalist and yes, racist in the eyes of those who actually read and fact check before posting such things.

Posted by tanyad | November 9, 2008 3:49 PM
390

no one is taking into consideration black gay people in ca. this was bitter sweet for us as well. i applaud the 30% of african americans that voted no on prop 8. what is more disturbing to me is how quickly the gay community turned on the entire black community. they even began to attack blacks who were walking with them and were also against prop 8. being called the n word by people with whom you thought you had a shared interest with is very disturbing. it speaks to the underlying racism that exist just beneath the surface of the gay community. african americans make up 6% of the voters in california. that means whites and latinos voted in much larger numbers against this proposition yet black were blamed. this will not soon be forgotten by black gays either. keep your weho with your rainbow colored hoods...


Posted by Freeleo | November 9, 2008 4:25 PM
391

no one is taking into consideration black gay people in ca. this was bitter sweet for us as well. i applaud the 30% of african americans that voted no on prop 8. what is more disturbing to me is how quickly the gay community turned on the entire black community. they even began to attack blacks who were walking with them and were also against prop 8. being called the n word by people with whom you thought you had a shared interest with is very disturbing. it speaks to the underlying racism that exist just beneath the surface of the gay community. african americans make up 6% of the voters in california. that means whites and latinos voted in much larger numbers against this proposition yet black were blamed. this will not soon be forgotten by black gays either. keep your weho with your rainbow colored hoods...


Posted by Freeleo | November 9, 2008 4:26 PM
392

I originally posted this to another site, but I wanted to include it here - in the hope that it will do something positive.

---------------------

I'm normally a lurker, but I feel compelled to weigh in on this one.

First of all - full disclosure - I am a Caucasian gay male. I voted for Obama and was positively ecstatic when he won. It was an exhilarating night. It felt like something had finally gone right after so very much had gone wrong.

The next morning, though, I was completely stunned to learn that Proposition 8 had passed. I remember I had to ask my partner twice - just because I was so sure I'd misheard him.

Afterward, in an effort to find more information, I started reading different websites/blogs including, well, I won't mention anyone by name. Let's just say that I was quickly brought up to speed on the now-infamous "black people threw us under the bus" theory...

...and I spent the next few days discovering some truly ugly emotions. It's been horrible.

Is there homophobia in the African-American community? Of course. Is the AA community MORE homophobic than any other? Perhaps. But I doubt it.

I think the big difference, really, is that gay white men are just more incensed by black homophobia.

An admittedly imperfect example - when Eminem uses words like "fag" and "dyke" he's being clever and ironic. Pushing the envelope. Displaying genius worthy of analysis by the likes of Frank Rich. It's not nice to hear, but I put up with it.

When Isaiah Washington uses the F word, though, that's when the bomb goes off. It's the lynching mentality, plain and simple.

At any rate, I'm writing this in the hopes that other gay white men like myself will, rather than lashing out in hurt and anger, take this as an opportunity to do some much-needed self-analysis. I'm hurting as much as anyone - but this isn't a game. It's critical that we learn the right lessons from this experience and not take the easy way out by scapegoating. I f@*king mean it.

In fact, maybe the most racist thing of all was that I never stopped to consider that some AAs might - for whatever reason - vote YES. Ultimately, that was the real failure.

And, yes, I'm sure the AA community has some self-examination of its own to do. But since I'm not a member of that community I'm not going to be stupid enough to tell anyone where my responsibility ends and theirs begins. There's been plenty of that already and it doesn't solve anything. Is that clear my white brothers? Stop typing, shut up and look in the mirror.

Meanwhile - for all of those African Americans who voted no and worked with us in the fight against Prop 8 - thank you, thank you, thank you for your very real support. You are heroes. I'm sorry for the hideous things that have been said, both in print and in person.

The only way we can have a future is together.

Posted by Bolex | November 9, 2008 7:00 PM
393

This whole issue is not as simple as Dan is making it out to be. It is possible that Pro 8 passed because the proponents had a better marketing campaign than the opposition? I was in San Francisco, and there were lots of No on 8 campaigners on Market St and in the Castro, but I was puzzled because it's like the NO on 8 people were preaching to the choir. Did the NO on 8 campaign really make an effort to reach out to the black, latino and asian communities? Did they go out into the rural areas? I was in Oakland also and I dont recall any No on 8 campaigners. The Yes on 8 campaign was very effective in that they didn't come across as a hate group but just as a group who appealed to traditional family values which appealed to minority and religious communities. By the way, I'm anti Prop 8 and their idea of the "preservation of marriage" is at risk if gays are allowed to marry.

As far as the African American backlash, I think its dumb to use African Americans as a scapegoat when they make up 6-7% of California population. Additionally the racist comments by several posters are very revealing. Yes, there's SOME homophobia in the black community and Yes, there is SOME racism in the gay mainstream community. There's also sexism, classism and many other ism's in the gay community whether it's gays vs lesbians, bear/cub's, power "A list" gays vs. others who are beneath them, etc.

Just because some gays voted for Obama got elected doesnt mean that African Americans owe any favors to gay people. A step in the right direction is to not compare the struggles between blacks vs. gays, or blacks vs. women. Religion, family and cultural values plays a role too, and thats being overlooked. There's a lot of gay people of color who feel looked down upon by the mainstream gay community. There's some groups of people who thinks it's acceptable to make fun of gays and lesbians.

The argument should be simply be about equal rights for all. Period.

Posted by krizdj | November 9, 2008 8:51 PM
394

If gays were truly "brave" they'd take their protest to Compton.

Posted by Missy | November 9, 2008 11:38 PM
395

The No on 8 campaign was poorly organized and executed. THAT is what lost this issue. It's still about folks coming out and letting others know about their lives. This is especially needed in conservative areas of California and the nation. First appeal to people's hearts, and then the minds will follow. People are basically good, but often mislead and ignorant. Reach out to that neighbor with the Yes on 8 sign, share the reality of what domestic partnership versus marriage means in terms of rights and benefits.

Posted by Kaleo | November 9, 2008 11:40 PM
396

Dan Savage (and all those who support the sweeping condemnation you make of African Americans in California),

It is entirely inaccurate and unproductive for you to place the blame for the recent passage of Prop 8 on the shoulders of African Americans, who comprised about 10% of those who voted "yes" to passing the anti-gay code.

The majority of those who voted "yes" on Prop 8 were white people -- so why attack African Americans??

There are homophobes (and allies to lgbtq people) in African American communities -- there are homophobes (and allies) in white communities and other communities of color -- why feed the racist stereotype that blacks are more homophobic and/or peculiarly homophobic in a way that white people are not? (And rest assured, the implication is that black people have a homophobia problem that white people don't -- I mean, just look at the comments posted on your blog! Do you really think you helped to lessen racial hostility among whites -- or stir up an already boiling pot of racist hatred? I believe that you -- regrettably -- accomplished the latter).

Here's a reality check for you and those who join you in finger pointing: It isn't African Americans and people of color that sustain the heterosexist (institutional) oppression of lgbtq people en masse -- it's the minority of wealthy white people -- particularly white heterosexual men -- that dominate government, business and cultural institutions that are responsible for that.

The homophobia of people of color DOES NOT HELP to change the heterosexist society that white people maintain, and - you're right about one thing -- people of colors' homophobia hurts lgbtq people of color the more than it hurts white lgbtq folks (though most of your commentators don't seem to understand that sad fact) -- but there are simply not enough people of color (and African Americans) in the U.S.'s population and in the U.S.'s most powerful political and economic positions to oppress lgbtq people on an institutional level -- period.

Also, your criticism of African Americans, in particular -- the rage you direct at African Americans, in particular, implies that black people OWE YOU something as a white gay man because -- what -- you believe you're not racist? Because you voted for a black man in the presidential election?

That is utterly ridiculous -- black people don't owe you a damn thing (and I say this as a black queer butch woman). Black folks don't owe you even if you -- personally -- commit the total of your power and privilege as a white man to ending institutional racism (in the form of racial profiling, disproportionate and racist arrest and incarceration rates, disproportionate impoverishment, segregated school and residential settings that suffer from the deprivation of resources middle and upper class people -- who are mostly white -- enjoy, the list goes on and on -- there's plenty to do! So, waste no time Dan Savage).

I don't raise my consciousness about the ways in which I participate in oppressing others -- nor do I try to challenge/reduce my participation in oppressing others because I believe oppressed people owe me something. I'm doing what I believe is right for me -- I'm doing what I should be doing. It's arrogant (among other things) to expect oppressed people to thank me for doing what I ought to as a fellow human being!

Again, your post on Prop 8 does not bring you, white lgbtq people or white heterosexual people any closer to dismantling your personal, subconscious & unconscious racism -- nor does it bring you and white lgbtq/heteros any closer to recognizing the ways in which you voluntarily and involuntarily benefit from racism.

What you have done is provide white people -- both lgbtq and straight -- with a cliche scapegoat -- just blame it all on black folks!

[ Please note: I understand that your privilege/power as a white man is mediated/lessened IN HETEROSEXUAL SPACES because of heterosexism -- i.e., your status as a gay man lessens the power and privileges attached to your whiteness because you subjected to anti-gay discrimination -- but your whiteness and your maleness (and able-bodiedness etc.,) DOES AFFORD YOU ADVANTAGES THAT PEOPLE OF COLOR DO NOT HAVE on an institutional level -- and electing a black man president won't make white privilege disappear to tomorrow -- an Obama presidency won't end institutional racism or individual racism in the near future. ]

Posted by butchrebel | November 10, 2008 1:05 AM
397

Dan Savage (and all those who support the sweeping condemnation you make of African Americans in California),

It is entirely inaccurate and unproductive for you to place the blame for the recent passage of Prop 8 on the shoulders of African Americans, who comprised about 10% of those who voted "yes" to passing the anti-gay code.

The majority of those who voted "yes" on Prop 8 were white people -- so why attack African Americans??

There are homophobes (and allies to lgbtq people) in African American communities -- there are homophobes (and allies) in white communities and other communities of color -- why feed the racist stereotype that blacks are more homophobic and/or peculiarly homophobic in a way that white people are not? (And rest assured, the implication is that black people have a homophobia problem that white people don't -- I mean, just look at the comments posted on your blog! Do you really think you helped to lessen racial hostility among whites -- or stir up an already boiling pot of racist hatred? I believe that you -- regrettably -- accomplished the latter).

Here's a reality check for you and those who join you in finger pointing: It isn't African Americans and people of color that sustain the heterosexist (institutional) oppression of lgbtq people en masse -- it's the minority of wealthy white people -- particularly white heterosexual men -- that dominate government, business and cultural institutions that are responsible for that.

The homophobia of people of color DOES NOT HELP to change the heterosexist society that white people maintain, and - you're right about one thing -- people of colors' homophobia hurts lgbtq people of color the more than it hurts white lgbtq folks (though most of your commentators don't seem to understand that sad fact) -- but there are simply not enough people of color (and African Americans) in the U.S.'s population and in the U.S.'s most powerful political and economic positions to oppress lgbtq people on an institutional level -- period.

Also, your criticism of African Americans, in particular -- the rage you direct at African Americans, in particular, implies that black people OWE YOU something as a white gay man because -- what -- you believe you're not racist? Because you voted for a black man in the presidential election?

That is utterly ridiculous -- black people don't owe you a damn thing (and I say this as a black queer butch woman). Black folks don't owe you even if you -- personally -- commit the total of your power and privilege as a white man to ending institutional racism (in the form of racial profiling, disproportionate and racist arrest and incarceration rates, disproportionate impoverishment, segregated school and residential settings that suffer from the deprivation of resources middle and upper class people -- who are mostly white -- enjoy, the list goes on and on -- there's plenty to do! So, waste no time Dan Savage).

I don't raise my consciousness about the ways in which I participate in oppressing others -- nor do I try to challenge/reduce my participation in oppressing others because I believe oppressed people owe me something. I'm doing what I believe is right for me -- I'm doing what I should be doing. It's arrogant (among other things) to expect oppressed people to thank me for doing what I ought to as a fellow human being!

Again, your post on Prop 8 does not bring you, white lgbtq people or white heterosexual people any closer to dismantling your personal, subconscious & unconscious racism -- nor does it bring you and white lgbtq/heteros any closer to recognizing the ways in which you voluntarily and involuntarily benefit from racism.

What you have done is provide white people -- both lgbtq and straight -- with a cliche scapegoat -- just blame it all on black folks!

[ Please note: I understand that your privilege/power as a white man is mediated/lessened IN HETEROSEXUAL SPACES because of heterosexism -- i.e., your status as a gay man lessens the power and privileges attached to your whiteness because you subjected to anti-gay discrimination -- but your whiteness and your maleness (and able-bodiedness etc.,) DOES AFFORD YOU ADVANTAGES THAT PEOPLE OF COLOR DO NOT HAVE on an institutional level -- and electing a black man president won't make white privilege disappear to tomorrow -- an Obama presidency won't end institutional racism or individual racism in the near future. ]

Posted by butchrebel | November 10, 2008 1:05 AM
398

If you insist on blaming Blacks for Proposition 8 you will miss any opportunity to overturn it. Blacks did not introduce this legislation. Please bear that in mind. If it had not been on the ballot no one could have voted on it.

Posted by Thelea Draganic | November 10, 2008 1:36 AM
399

Is this a record number of slog posts or what?

I was under the impression regarding Prop 8 that it was the Mormons who sponsored it, and many various religious, or just misinformed people who said YES on 8, including voters of caucasion, latino, and asian heritage. So, number and polling games aside - why single out the black voters? This is just seeming like some misplaced blame to me - a Seattle thirtysomething who happens to be a white, queer, low income, Obama voter.

So, after being so elated on 11.04.08 that YES WE DID, soon thereafter I too began feeling very disenchanted and even saddened this week upon reading that prop 8 as well as many other anti gay measures across the US indeed passed.

But really - we are at the beginning of a brand new journey not only in our country, but the entire world, so please stop the racial scapegoating and go to work doing what is needed to do, for example, get the word out that one priority we would like to see in this inaugural term of change would be the repeal of that hideous DOMA, and educate people about WHY it was that the Mormon church helped move this all along. Did I miss the tirade against them already here, Dan?

Posted by Queer National | November 10, 2008 5:25 AM
400

Its amazing to me when people spew out their opinions without a shred of decency to respect others' opinions or views.
African Americans are not as a rule homophobic. We just do not support gay marriage. We have always seen marrige as the union between a man and woman. It has nothing to do with your rights, it has everything to do with our values with which we were brought up.
Take the time to listen to African Americans and you may learn something.
From almost the inception of this nation, whites have tried to make the policy on ways to behave and act. When the declaration of Independence was written, the idea of citizenship was for free white landowning men. Blacks were kept out of the loop and most were slaves, so they were property. In due time, slavery was ended and blacks were disfranchised, raped, lynched, murdered, and intimidated for decades upon decades. Through all of this blacks kept true to their belief about marriage: union between man and woman. That is their belief and people need to respect it.
I support marriage as the union between a man and woman as is my christian background, which ALL NEED TO RESPECT. I think that people who believe such should be respected just as those who do not believe such. Do not make it a matter of homophobia because that is hatred. Listen to African Americans and understand their view just as you want respect for your view.
Blacks just do not want their traditional view of marriage destroyed. Respect that.
My common ground view is to keep marriage as man and woman to keep heterosexuals happy and give gays civil unions with the force of marriage. Both get what they want and we are all happy.
Please do not equate gay marriage with civil rights though. Being black is a state in which I am born, loving whom I want is a choice.

Posted by Henry | November 10, 2008 7:25 AM
401

@375

Where am I being a typical white condescending asshole? You just secured my fact by lashing out at me and my skin color over a simple observation. Thank you for playing the Slog.

Posted by Mr. Poe | November 10, 2008 8:07 AM
402

It confuses me that black people are now being seen as homophobes for this vote, but nobody has labeled the white LGBT community as racist for trying to put the blame on blacks for this vote, well I'm doing it now.

Grow up people, being black does not mean you have to be liberal or even are liberal, just like being a christian doesn't mean your conservative. I don't think any black sits around thinking about how to help other groups overcome discrimnation, because we still face so much of it and I don;t see too much of the LGBT community focusing on that, just their own issues. Every minority group battles its own type of discrimination and it is impossible to compare those struggles to one another, ie gay civil rights issues are not equal to black civil rights issues. Sorry they just are not and never will be, and that's okay.

But if we do want to talk about the LGBT community, most of this community has excluded or denied the AA LGBT community, esp. in the HIV/AIDS issue and this has been acknowledged widely thru the LGBT community, so how one-sided for the LGBT community to just expect that blacks will fall in line with them at their time of need when in the past they have not done the same.

Yes there is a lot of homophobia in the AA community, but they are not to blame on failings of Prop 8.

Posted by Huh? | November 10, 2008 9:53 AM
403

(sighs)



dan, please don't.



please don't make generalizations about black people being homophobic



and then say there is just "a handful" of racist white gay men



where are you getting these "handful" numbers? and how can you *possibly* make that comparison? please don't direct your anger about prop 8 not passing at black people. it's divisive. and, honestly, scary.



this reads like a craigslist rant, like an attack ad, like a gay version of conservative talk radio. please stop abusing your power as a widely-read writer.



this is exactly why i don't read the stranger anymore except for control tower. please please please get back to your progressive roots before it's too late.

Posted by edgewise | November 10, 2008 10:16 AM
404

Dear Dan,

You say that the people who will benefit the most from "confronting" the homophobia in the AfAm community are black gays and lesbians. But as has become apparent, the people who are hurt the most by posts like yours are the significant 30% of black voters who rejected Prop 8 and care deeply about marriage equality.


I don't know if this was your intention, but your post has become part of a "black people are the gays' main enemy today" mentality. That's insanely disrespectful of black people, and you know who's hurt the most by that? Black gays and lesbians.


Shame on you, sir, not for your (justifiable!) pain and frustration, but for hiding your momentary bigotry in this "I'm just looking out for black gays and lesbians" meme.


Those people (and their allies within the African American community) have been fighting the battle against discrimination on two fronts, and they deserve more support and respect.

Posted by silvergirl | November 10, 2008 11:59 AM
405

Hi Dan,

I met you this March when I brought you to Penn to speak. I must say that I am very disappointed in your comments. You divide and blame approach is merely fueling the divide and conquer system we already live in.

Yes there is a significant amount of homophobia within the black community. You treat a group of people like shit for 300 odd years, with the only sense of hope being in religion. And the religion you give them is the "white mans religion", as it where. You emasculate their men for 300 some odd years and in a society which caters to traditional views of what being a "man" means, you make it so that they cannot do so, that is be a "man". So when one black man calls another black man "gay" they feel even more need to defend their masculinity then their white counterpart making homophobia even more ingrained so now they've created this black, homophobic, culture who is deeply religious; who is pushed to the side. And when the gay marriage proposition comes up {lgbt folk] do very little to cater to the [ethnic] minority vote until the last minute.

Then YOU have the nerve to blame them out of all the other groups that voted yes. Really??

Will you take the blame for the hatred and division you have caused now?

P.S. - Ever think that maybe these people voted yes because they are so religious and not because they are black...

Posted by Ke | November 10, 2008 12:34 PM
406

Okay, how DO we reach out to the AA and other communities that hate us? If they don't consider our struggle to be in any way related or comparable to their own, if trying to make relationships is somehow offensive, then we are left with a sad conundrum... we need to come together but HOW?

Posted by Jessica | November 10, 2008 1:27 PM
407

I’ve written a lengthy and detailed report on the history of the black community and gay marriage.

http://socialdysfunction.ramseyisler.com/2008/11/09/blacks-hate-gay-people-maybe-maybe-not-facts-and-figures/

In short, it shows that if you compare a number of factors, including results from other gay marriage bans, blacks weren’t any more in favor of bans than whites. In fact, in many cases they were slightly more in favor of gay marriage.

Also, a key point in that in that article, is that pollsters initially noticed a huge spike in opposition to Prop 8 when they actually read the “eliminates rights” language on the bill to the people being polled. Then a month later, after heavy campaigning from the opposition, things had changed.

But polls are weird, and I talk about that in the report as well.

Posted by Ramsey | November 10, 2008 1:35 PM
408

The furor over Prop 8 has caused many of us in the the black community who do support gay rights to take a step backwards. The vitriol that has been spewed by the gay community over the past few days is startling to say the least. Immediately some black intellectuals stepped forward to take blame and to attempt to explain black homophobia without realizing or acknowledging that the measure would have passed with or without black support. Secondly, there have been endless posts about how Obama is to blame and after all the support he received from the gay community, blah, blah, blah. The reality is that one of the only groups that skewed towards McCain in larger numbers than they did for Bush in '04 was LGBT voters. There has also been little or no recognition that the organizers failed to properly mobilize until it was too late and there was little to no outreach to communities of color. I think that one of the biggest obstacles to both sides understanding the other is the constant recitation of the similarity of the struggle between black people and gay people. I believe that gay Americans deserve the same rights as everyone else including the right to marry, however, I do not think for one moment that our struggle is or has been the same. We may be both fighting for equality but our paths have been markedly different and we need to get past the false equivalency arguments that attempt to obscure this fact. Lastly, when I read the hateful rhetoric used by some on this board and others, the fact that our struggles are so different came to mind because the first insult that many went to was the age old 'N' word with all the white power and rage that goes into making that statement. Rather than trying to understand why the majority of Californians voted for the measure, some attempted to parse the results to fit a narrative they deemed relevant and in the process many of us straight people of color understood that once again we are the first ones thrown under the bus. It is a little odd to call someone out on perceived bigotry by resorting to good old fashioned racism to make your point.

Posted by Hope | November 10, 2008 2:36 PM
409

I don't give a fuck WHO voted for Prop 8. I don't care if they were white, black, brown, purple, or blue. I don't care why, or what possessed them to vote for it, or what pastor, priest, or minister encouraged them to vote for it. And I think it's a goddamn waste of time to try to analyze exit polls to figure out what demographic was responsible or was not responsible for its passing. It shouldn't have passed. Period, point, blank.

It was fucking WRONG to vote for this bigoted proposition, no matter your religion or race or creed. Wrong. Wrong. WRONG. But it passed, and I am sick of having to read about who helped it pass and who didn't and who's saying that person is wrong for saying this particular person voted this particular way...it's a waste of precious energy that should be poured into repealing this stupid, antiquated bullshit law. We need to regroup and refocus and try again. Blaming and in-fighting are not going to make that happen any faster. This kind of nonsense is counterproductive.

My two cents.

Posted by Nix | November 10, 2008 3:23 PM
410

First of all. Just basic numbers. I haven't read everyone's posts, but what is the potential number that 70% of the sampling of blacks represents in this poll? Just curious. If you have 7 of 10 blacks voting for proposition 8 and 50 out of 100 whites voting for proposition 8...well I'd ask what's your point?



I could go on a rant, but in short, Dan Savage's comments are shortsighted and do drench in racism and ignorance. Period. No doubt he will come up with some logical response to angry postings, but it was good for me to again be reminded that racism both in the queer community and the progressive community is vibrant. But I never forgot that. Ya'll won't let me.



And regarding the few postings I read referring to the presidency, Obama supposedly didn't win due to his race. This is what the "post-race" America is claiming. I don't believe in a post-race America as much as I don't believe in a queer-friendly America (as a queer black woman living in Chicago). Anyone who questions whether Obama is "appreciative" of what queers have done for him should possibly reflect on those old images of some house negro bowing down at anyone's feet. Similarly, comments that address California's black voters in such a tone are way off the mark of social justice, but do hit racism right on the bulls eye.

Posted by C Marshall | November 10, 2008 3:27 PM
411

First of all. Just basic numbers. I haven't read everyone's posts, but what is the potential number that 70% of the sampling of blacks represents in this poll? Just curious. If you have 7 of 10 blacks voting for proposition 8 and 50 out of 100 whites voting for proposition 8...well I'd ask what's your point?



I could go on a rant, but in short, Dan Savage's comments are shortsighted and do drench in racism and ignorance. Period. No doubt he will come up with some logical response to angry postings, but it was good for me to again be reminded that racism both in the queer community and the progressive community is vibrant. But I never forgot that. Ya'll won't let me.



And regarding the few postings I read referring to the presidency, Obama supposedly didn't win due to his race. This is what the "post-race" America is claiming. I don't believe in a post-race America as much as I don't believe in a queer-friendly America (as a queer black woman living in Chicago). Anyone who questions whether Obama is "appreciative" of what queers have done for him should possibly reflect on those old images of some house negro bowing down at anyone's feet. Similarly, comments that address California's black voters in such a tone are way off the mark of social justice, but do hit racism right on the bulls eye.

Posted by C Marshall | November 10, 2008 3:30 PM
412

First of all. Just basic numbers. I haven't read everyone's posts, but what is the potential number that 70% of the sampling of blacks represents in this poll? Just curious. If you have 7 of 10 blacks voting for proposition 8 and 50 out of 100 whites voting for proposition 8...well I'd ask what's your point?



I could go on a rant, but in short, Dan Savage's comments are shortsighted and do drench in racism and ignorance. Period. No doubt he will come up with some logical response to angry postings, but it was good for me to again be reminded that racism both in the queer community and the progressive community is vibrant. But I never forgot that. Ya'll won't let me.



And regarding the few postings I read referring to the presidency, Obama supposedly didn't win due to his race. This is what the "post-race" America is claiming. I don't believe in a post-race America as much as I don't believe in a queer-friendly America (as a queer black woman living in Chicago). Anyone who questions whether Obama is "appreciative" of what queers have done for him should possibly reflect on those old images of some house negro bowing down at anyone's feet. Similarly, comments that address California's black voters in such a tone are way off the mark of social justice, but do hit racism right on the bulls eye.

Posted by C Marshall | November 10, 2008 3:30 PM
413

After spending your entire life flying in the face of the establishment, you would take some CNN exit polls as gospel? Maybe a little critical reading is in order Dan.

This is what has me so worried about the tact we're taking with No on Prop 8.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pam-spaulding/the-n-bomb-is-dropped-on_b_142363.html

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

The day after the Presidential election, our one shining moment as a nation, I heard so much vitriol on NPR against Black and Latinos because of the passage of Prop 8 that it broke my heart.

This is such an important topic. To let ourselves be conquered and divided once again, to be polarized, scapegoated, and splintered and let our tenuous alliances destroyed is something we can't afford to do right now.
Breaks my heart for gay and lesbian people of color.

We aren't monolithic groups. Can't we recognize this as a generational divide rather than a racial divide?

On November 15th, we as a state are supposed to march against Prop. 8 and for the rights of ALL gays and lesbians . I'll be there but who do I stand next to?

Makes me so sad.

Posted by Linda Lagunas | November 10, 2008 4:26 PM
414

Dan, you fucked up. I remember reading your hilarious columns in one of the Bay Area papers in the mid 90s, and I enjoy seeing you on Real Time. But that diatribe you wrote just comes off as pent-up racism being unleashed. You cite exit polls (plural) but the 70% number really comes from one poll (which could be seriously flawed). But before I go further, YOU HAVE TO DO THE MATH. Assuming the 70% figure is correct (it probably isn't), if the 500,000 black voters instead voted 70% against prop 8, there would be a swing of 400,000 votes. But still, this is not enough to defeat prop 8. Even if black people voted overwhelmingly against Prop 8, it still would pass. So are you going after Latinos next? Dan, you've just sunk to the depths of that same, tired-ass race-baiting bullshit. And you should know better. You KNOW that 90% of Republicans (a much larger group; none of whom are black) voted for Prop 8, but no, IT'S DE BLACK MAN'S FAULT! I would never vote for something as stupid as Prop 8, but I would seriously consider telling a pollster I did, just to piss you off.



You wept for Obama's win, yet you vote for him despite his stance against gay marriage and his half-assed attempt to speak out against Prop 8. Is this particular black person's opinion on gay marriage acceptable to you? If so, how is this different than the black people who voted for Prop 8 but don't have schizophrenia? You can't win a war against black people (since we don't care to fight you), but if you DO war with a black person over this, you should start with our new president.

Posted by Anonymous black person | November 10, 2008 5:53 PM
415

I never saw that gays could not buy homes in the burbs or land deeds denying them access to those homes in better neighborhoods because they were Black depriving those families of upward moblity Marco. White Gay men had racially separate beaches, neighborhoods and clubs yes those same pained pissed off gay White Men and Women practiced the same segeregation too in the good ole U.S.A. and it’s probaly that legacy that tells blacks to produce 3 types of I.D’s at gay clubs today.

You can rant like a 10 y.o. starting a fight and blame blacks instead of lousy planning by your advocates for this amendment failing. It’s one thing if you did all you could politcally on the grassroots and Blacks still voted 70-30 then you may have an argument, the white GLBT community has utter contempt for Afro- Americans unless it is a fat black woman singing disco or techno songs. I voted No on prop 2 in florida but for now on since Afro- Americans are persona non grata in the white gay mind as an ally then reach out to Republicans if you can flip them that’s your concern not mine.

I don’t want to hear about your issues anymore some of those in the white racist gay community can stick it where the “Sun don’t shine” after reading some of the most racist words on Savage’s and Daily Kos from White Gays and Lesbians. I could care less about their wanting to get married, If you ain't ready to fight and die like those in the Civil Rights Movement to secure those rights then STFU and have you little pride festival marches and Shirley Q. liquor concerts and read Tom of Finland books and take your medicine like good little boys and girls. Or take a weapon, march and do what's required for freedom.

Those Black and Pureto Rican Drag Queens and gays had more balls at Stonewall in 1969 than most of you "weak, racist, GLBT white benieficares of their brave act of self- defense.

Posted by Eric Daniels | November 10, 2008 7:15 PM
416

I just want to remind everyone that homophobia is a problem in the AA community because of Christianity. Christianity is white peoples fault!

Posted by Immanuel Raheim | November 10, 2008 7:28 PM
417

It fascinates and disturbs me on so many levels; First, I was appalled at the percentage of available voters in the Black community. As a Brooklyn Boy living in LA, I had to adjust to the “visual” segregation in this state. Now I’m saddened to see the numbers (6%). I thought they were just hiding my Negroid Brothers and Sisters. It’s obvious the numbers of available Black voters are extremely low.

Secondly, The mainstream Caucasoid gay community, constantly neglect to create multi-cultural coalitions. It’s impossible to establish camaraderie for a cause with non-existent relationships. Allowing for a few token situations the settings in most gay environments are typically segregated.

Thirdly, I witnessed a stronger campaign from the YES on 8 organizers. The NO on 8 organizers never fully took off. I didn’t see ya’ll. Incidentally, before you get at me, I still proudly post my NO on 8 sign on my front lawn, I donated, I signed, and I got married. Otherwise the only reference I had to this issue was the constant rotation of misleading YES ads. One in particular, ends with a sweet pre-pubescent, wide-eyed, Latina girl slightly cocking her head with obvious vulnerability. It implies somehow I could snap her neck with my fundamental rights. I also witnessed invariable placements of ads on sites like myspace. Irony is to watch vouguing clips tagged with these ads. Willie Ninja would be gagging!

I understand the unfortunate support the YES on 8 constituents received from the religious right. However, back in the day, (referring to the civil rights movement as is often done), shit was done with mimeograph sheets, and knocking on strangers doors where you might get your ass kicked. Was it really an all- encompassing grass roots movement? Attention and education to the proposition wasn’t always available. We were invisible. One needs to step out of their core group in order to be fully effective. In not doing so, creates this bubble environment where we deal only with like-minded people. Caught up in agreements over brunch doesn’t reach the ill advised. I say this for all of us; Occasionally, we must step out of our circles.

Fourth… When the hell did our Negroid Peeps get so much “electoral juice”? I had no idea your vote actually mattered that much. Aware of this information we should propose an infinite number of propositions that would benefit an otherwise neglected group.

Yo, Let me wrap this shit up.

When I moved to Cali, I was presumptuous to think it was full of yoga lovin’, granola eatin’, and nouveau hippies of all colors. Shit, I had that on my old block in Harlem and before (gentrification) that in the LES. I discovered that it ain’t yoga but many of these individuals are bent up for different reasons. The fear of the Brown man and woman is the biggest one. I observe as people create this façade of selective tolerance. I’ll tolerate Juan as long as he does my lawn and stays outside… I’ll tolerate Leroy because he has a uniform on… I’ll tolerate Darryl ‘cause he has a big dick. When the fuck are we going to get passed all this shit?

By the by, I did not attend any rallies after the election. I’m an angry Puerto Rican, if I heard the n word once, I would have beat some dumb motherfuckers ass and taken my white husband home.

Thank you for your time.

Posted by Daniel G. | November 10, 2008 8:23 PM
418

# 397 said :
That is utterly ridiculous -- black people don't owe you a damn thing (and I say this as a black queer butch woman). Black folks don't owe you even if you -- personally -- commit the total of your power and privilege as a white man to ending institutional racism
____

This is pretty cool isn'it ?
This black woman is making it crystal clear, dear white folks, that there is *nothing* you can do that will win her favor. In typical POC(tm) fashion, she just wants you to self flagellate endlessly and she has absolutely no intention of ever forgiving you and she probably reserves the right to insult and belittle you at will, because, after all you're priviledged and that's all you deserve. Like many POC)tm) on this thread , she probabably thinks that you did absolutely nothing special by voting for Obama. On the other hand, you can be 100% sure that had you voted for McCain , you'd be seen by her and other POC(tm) as cancerous , maligant racists. I don't thnk there's any doubt about that.
I do like the fact that this woman actually gives away the real game : a lot of POC(tm) talk about white folks being possible allies. Those are white folks who "commit the total of your power and privilege as a white man to ending institutional racism " . Our queer black butch woman actually tells it like it is : You can not be her ally. You are her ennemy. She is at war with you. And you are not allowed to defend yourself, because that's priviledged and therefore supremely evil ...

Posted by northernobserver | November 10, 2008 10:58 PM

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