If this were China, somebody would be executed for allowing that bridge to collapse. And while my better judgment will no doubt prevail, execution seems like an excellent idea right about now.

Our leaders are just pandering to us. Don't blame them. Blame your neighbors. Blame yourself if you voted for tax cuts and privatization and the kind of leaders you'd like to have a beer with instead of the kind who are good at math.

We are a stupid, lazy and selfish society, and we ourselves are the ones left dead under tons of concrete. Some day our kids will really hate us for all the shit we've done.

Hard to read that post - but - then ...

Thanks Dan.

Think of all the non stop trivia about replacing the Viaduct - will cut the view, we need a park, not another structure, endless silly theories on traffic flow ...

Many, many, many more delaying crap studies, presentations, waring factions fighting for the money or the "better" concept ...

And the media facilited some of this, the Stranger braying in this corner, the council in another, and there is the mayor - grandstanding.

I would be glad to see it shut down tomorrow, and a replacement started this fall. No more shit. No more BULLSHIT.

Yes, lives are at stake.

Curse those Minnesota bureaucrats. And they will PAY many times the cost of the steel ... repeat big lawsuit, billions at stake.

So will the State of Washington, if it ever collapses with deaths and destruction.

@3

Hilda, like you I too would like to see the viaduct shut down tomorrow. No more bullshit.

The only difference between us is that I would like to see construction on a surface street begin this fall. If those of you who want a replacement so badly would realize that lives are at stake, perhaps you would stop your obstructionist demands for a replacement.

It's a simple matter of giving up your side of the argument and coming around to my side. What's wrong with you? Do you want people to die?

On my bad days I find myself agreeing with the general sentiment of elenchos@2 these days. I think the American public has come to take it for granted that this nation and its until recently generally pretty well-functioning bureaucracy will just maintain itself, and that Bush took office in 2001 in part due to this apathy. There's a point where you can't get around the fact that the average American hasn't done his/her job here.

I went along with the Stranger's "no and hell no" approach to the viaduct alternatives, but I'm wondering now if the Stranger staff are changing their tune on the viaduct proposals. Is it worth arguing over aesthetics, etc, if the viaduct could collapse any day now? Should the tune be changed to "No and hell no... well, okay we need to do something"?

You didn't know?

Surface-Transit option! woot!

Alaskan Way Blvd is where its at.

What's unsettling is how quickly the slide to the right happened. This wasn't a banana republic eight years ago.

Turn the Viaduct into a park!!!!

"The Alaskan Way Viaduct was ranked a nine percent (9%) on the same Federal scale that deemed the Minnesota bridge was structurally deficient at a rating of 50%." - paraphrased from Erica C. Barnett on The Slog.

It is inexcusable that our elected officials have not shut down the viaduct - immediately. They are clearly choosing the deaths of dozens of citizens.

When the viaduct falls over (which it will before people here will ever make a decision) it will bankrupt the state.

The state's insurance carrier will refuse to provide the payout of billions of dollars in settlements to those who were killed (in the cars and in the adjacent condos and waterfront tourist traps) in the disaster because it will successfully argue that the state knew the viaduct was dangerous and failed to take corrective action in a timely manner.

When counties have gone bankrupt (and there are several that have done so in the US) it is not a pretty picture. With the state going bankrupt all state services will be forced to shut down, such as prisons, drivers license offices, and the state department of transportation, not to mention the state legislature.

WA State is living on borrowed time, and state, county, and city leaders are gambling with the life and livliehood of all of us. There should be a betting pool on how many hours or days till the damn thing falls over.

This is worse than any terrorist attack by foreign jihadists (or whatever) because this is completely preventable and we are doing it to ourselves.

I'm just sayin' . . .

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If we don't do something about the viaduct, We'll all be sitting here in slog one day, bitching about what the memorial to those killed on the viaduct will look like.

three cheers to MOM -

I live in West Seattle and you just have no idea the panic it causes when the talk is of that via way - taken over by partly or more limited - as in constant stopping and smaller capacity - street.

Oh, but it will look so horrible - kinda tired of all that crap.

I still think it should be rebuilt to PLUS mechanical standards, no half assed engineering - no corrupt pay off contracting - build it to last two hundred years, NOW.

Take charge Gregoire, lead, it is a STATE HiWay, State DOT money, not the pet project of all the mixed forces possible in very mixed forces Seattle.

Time to end the conjecture and let's try that blah blah -- and -- or that blah blah -- and BUILD.

In an ironic and controversial twist like Maya Lin being granted the Vietnam Memorial design, the one dedicated to Viaduct victims will shaped like a Stranger Genius congratulatory cake.

Yes! Enough dithering! End the debate... my side wins (because I said so). Thanks for playing.

One way each of you as an individual could help prevent a deadly viaduct collapse would be to not drive on it, by the way. Plus, you won't be there if it falls down anyway. Just saying.

I haven't looked up the statistics, but I'd venture that one's chances of dying because a bridge collapsed in North America are probably below (i.e. smaller) than the chances of someone dying because the airframe of the airplane they're flying in broke in half. But, that latter has happened in effect with many aircraft accidents (fuel tank exploding in 747, roof ripping off in 737, tail elevon control screw failing in DC-9/MD80, etc.). So, the proper response is to not only close the viaduct immediately, but shut down all North American airports. Not to put too fine a spin on it, but what's the total death toll in the I-35W collapse - 13. What's the homicide rate so far this year in Seattle? Probably higher than 13. Are you going to quit living in the city? We still let airplanes fly over densely populated areas, what if an engine falls off? That happens too.

#16 -
So, what you're saying is this; People in West Seattle (where my home is) really like the easy access downtown. So, we should leave it as it is and let it fall down when its ready. Or wait for another boom time to build a magical tunnel through downtown (which would cost 4 times the two new stadiums).



Civilized, post-industrial societies based on the movement of goods and services rely on our infrastructure for the basis of their economy. We can either lose the viaduct in its current form when we plan for it. Or we can let it crumble, let random people get crushed, and rebuild with some federal bailout. Hey! We'll probably even have the president visit us on an empathy tour. Tears will be shed, photographs taken, we'll have lots of pity.

I agree with the Stranger on the surface-transit option. People are adaptable. If we focus on providing easy access downtown without cars, than people will change their habits. I think the view from the viaduct is beautiful while you're driving north, on top, but really fucking ugly to look at from any other angle. We could replicate the kind of road that the viaduct is with a surface road. Keep the number of exits limited to the current amount to keep the speed high, put light rail tracks down the middle and enhanced bus service from the outlying neighborhoods. It's not rocket science


We will never build ourselves out of traffic problems.


Regardless of what I'd like to see happen, something needs to happen.


Mr. Mayor? Where are you?

Some of the commenters here seem to be saying Seattle should just go along with whatever stupid-ass, environmentally destructive, colossally wasteful plan its leaders can cook up, because otherwise, the viaduct will collapse and kill people and it will all be the fault of the folks who questioned their wisdom.

The irresponsibility, should something happen (and hey, it probably won't, right? keep thinking that way) will lie with those obstructing the Viaduct's immediate - immediate closure and removal. I'm not just saying that because I worked on the PWC a hundred years ago: the Minneapolis event is the beginning of the deferred-maintenance bill coming due for the whole country's infrastructure, and we - they - got off relatively light (no disrespect intended). That, though sad, was a warning; a collapsed Viaduct would be catastrophic.

#17 - excellent post in that you are thinking of modern transportation based American society ....

There is no other kind, except a few left over hippie communes somewhere and even they have an old VW van ....

Goods and services moving to every corner and NOTHING ELSE, adding transmission lines, makes it possible to live in a city .....

Always left out of the new idealists chatter is the vast array of trucking we MUST have. The anti - too many cars - rap is productive in that folks can get smaller cars, use buss when possible and carpool. BUT these folks rarely mention trucking, which services provide EVERY item they touch every day - including the very computer they are using and all of their food.

A north south arterial in our choked city is a VITAL asset for moving goods - and the economic vitality a part of it - maybe more important than people - Duh ...

Of course the hot house hipsters have never had labor jobs that produce products that are shipped - all that stuff is just there - for use and purchase. Mommie and daddy just go to the store, quite by some auto/magic process, all they need is presented.

Think trucking, Grant. You seem intelligent, but locked in some far fetched reversion to primal times. And how does a neutral concrete structure pollute the einvironment? I think it is the oxidation of diesel and gas, not the above or below ground concrete.

And yes, at the same time we all decry the long and longer and longest Seattle process, what do do here is the worst example of all ... doing nothing, more talking, more studies, rising costs .... the worst also because of potential danger of collapse. Ignore that, lets talk ten more years.

The Seattle need to talk everything numb is retarded. Too many liberal hippies who think 100% of the people need to agree. Seattle mayors never have the balls to just push through the talk and get things done. Nichols should stop eating at Dicks and look around. The roads suck, the viaduct will soon fall and armed thugs randomly shoot people downtown. This is a great city? Meanwhile, pot smoking hippie rejects continue to slow any process to a halt with the need for more public meetings, more imput and continued talk.
Tear down the viaduct before it falls down. That would be leadership. It will not matter what replaces it, a bridge, another viaduct or a road. For that matter, why not imagine 15 years from now when gas costs 8 dollars a gallon and more people are riding bikes, how about an elivated bike lane to replace the viaduct, cheaper and future thinking.
Talk about it...

Screw you if you choose to live in West Seattle. The only reason anyone in West Seattle is for the viaduct is because they're too lazy to take a bus or too cheap to live near downtown. If any of you lived on our side of the city you'd be fighting the rebuild as much as the rest of us. West Seattle is one of the most bus-accessible neighborhoods in the city.... ask Erica & Josh!

Before considering the teardown, I would need a commitment that no Stranger staffers would live in the western half of the city or west of the city. In particular ECB would be banned. The endless complaints about water taxis not dropping her at a pier of her choice, the low quality of cheese products (serving real cheese not from a petroleum base), old people sharing the bus, the failure of BRT and no real transit, shortage of Flexcar Porsches (they get in Mini range mileage) and the tearing down of the Husky Deli building destroying the ambiance of California Ave would break the tedium barrier.

BTW what happened to the danger of the seawall collapse? Haven't seen a word since the vote.

In a big enough EQ the viaduct will come down - so will a percentage of all structures (the Stranger building looks pretty unstable) - let's build that transit the western half deserves or at least fund it. If ST2 passes, in 30 years it will be faster to get from Overlake to Capitol Hill than from California Ave. That should promote density.

#2 was still right on the money for me. As fucked in the head as Seattle is, I can't think of a major American city that's heading in a GOOD direction right now in terms of infrastructure right now.

Somewhere along the line we stopped figuring out how to build shit because of privatization and the utter gutting of funding. Where's the "Free Market Solution," Randroids?

The thing that drives me fucking nuts is that in all this chatter about the Viaduct, nobody seems to give a care for the seawall. There is no debate that the seawall MUST be replaced, that it WILL have catastrophic consequences for the whole waterfront area if it collapses in an earthquake, and we know that it will cost $800-900 million to fix it. The money for it exists, so why aren't we replacing it now?

I agree that the Viaduct is a liability waiting to happen that will bankrupt the state. I am shocked that the state just sits waiting for the quake that will start the clock on the lawsuits. The focus on how much to spend to keep the Sonics in town is going to look pretty foolish in retrospect.

Now that it affects me, could we please get a post about the fact that there is no motorcycle parking downtown. The complaints about transit are legitimate, but what about people who are trying to get out of their car while still getting to work in less than three times their driving time? I know of only 2 spots that are w/in a mile of my building; otherwise, I have to stick a parking ticket on my headlight that will be there for no more than 15 minutes before it's swiped and I get a parking ticket. Again, the Stranger needs to organize a symposium where city officials are called to task for not working on some solutions to the commuting problems here.

"There is no debate that the seawall MUST be replaced, that it WILL have catastrophic consequences for the whole waterfront area if it collapses in an earthquake, and we know that it will cost $800-900 million to fix it."

The seawall issue became a big issue when it was convenient for someones tunnel project. Exactly what is wrong with it? Gribbles eating it? What part are they eating. The only logical reason nothing is being done, if in fact it is as bad as pre-vote propaganda said, is that Nickels wouldn't agree to the fix because that would have sealed the deal on his tunnel.

Nice link to viaduct being built:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Photos/Historical.htm

Brad @ 17:

We will never build ourselves out of traffic problems.

Regardless of what I'd like to see happen, something needs to happen.

Mr. Mayor? Where are you?

You're right Brad, we never will, which is why I'm voting against RTID/ST2 this fall and will vote against any future road and or transit proposals. We will never build ourselves out of traffic, so pissing more money down the ST2 light rail rathole, which is basically a huge welfare program paid for by everyone in Seattle and King County so that a privileged few will be able to ride a slow train into downtown Seattle, is a complete and total fucking waste of money.

@ 16: Chas - When's the last time you knowingly got on a plane that had such huge cracks in the wings and fuselage that it had a 9% chance of flying safely?

The point is that the civil engineers don't understand why the viaduct is still standing. With only a 9% rating our public servants are lying to those 110,000 people who use the viaduct everyday (although it's really more like 75,000).

Your typical person believes that if the viaduct was really dangerous, then public officials would close it because that's their job - right? And because they haven't closed it, well then it must be pretty safe, right? Well, that's what the people in Minneapolis thought about their bridge too, and see how wrong they were. Jennifer Umolac said it very well.

And yes, I no longer use the viaduct. I don't care how many decades people wrangle over what should replace it - they should just shut it down now before it kills people and bankrupts the state.

Yah! Yah! Yah! The viaduct is a deathtrap and we should tear it down right now so that Cary Moon and the other art fags and "design professionals" at the People's Waterfront Coalition (people meaning downtown Seattle developers, envirocunts like Erica C. "handicapped people should be gassed so they don't slow down the bus when I'm going to the STD clinic" Barnett) can produce more bullshit propaganda pictures of how wonderful a viaduct free waterfront would look (which if you'll notice all of the propaganda pictures that the Stranger has printed not only show the waterfront as being viaduct free but also completely and totally transit free and occupied by SUVs). Hey, you know what else is a deathtrap, the Burlington Northern Tunnel that Sound Transit runs the Sounder through. That's right. Check this out

By: Chris Ingalls
King 5 Investigators
February 9, 2004

SEATTLE - Sound Transit’s new commuter train is now rolling north after launching a new Seattle to Everett route. But the KING 5 Investigators have discovered what may be the “weak link” in the line - a problem hidden hundreds of feet beneath downtown Seattle.

After years of negotiation, Sound Transit has struck a quarter billion dollar agreement with Burlington Northern to use its existing tracks. Part of the tracks includes the section where the train disappears into blackness of the Great Northern Tunnel.

The 100-year-old tunnel runs beneath Seattle and has some experts fearing it could spell trouble down the line.

When Sound Transit first talked about using the Great Northern Tunnel in 1998, the Seattle Fire Department ran a series of smoke drills inside.

Those tests confirmed the fire department’s worst fears: Responding to an accident or fire inside the mile-long tunnel would be difficult, if not impossible.

The century-old tunnel is grand-fathered out of the codes that regulate most train tunnels in the United States. It has no emergency exits, no ventilation system, or lighting.

“It's a very crowded tunnel - two tracks and a little bit of room in the middle,” said Chief Gregory Dean, Seattle Fire Marshall.

The KING 5 Investigators have obtained documents in which the fire department outlines its concerns to Sound Transit.

Dozens of freight trains and four Amtrak passenger trains use the tunnel daily. But the fire department said Sounder’s plans to eventually run four round trips through the tunnel could increase the number of passenger trips by 300 percent.

According to the date on the documents, the Seattle Fire Department raised these concerns nearly five years ago.

“To my knowledge, there have been no recent improvements,” said Marty Minkoff, director of Sounder commuter rail and Sound Transit spokesman.

Minkoff said history shows the tunnel is already safe. There’s no record of any accident in the Great Northern Tunnel and Sound Transit’s use of the tunnel has been approved by the Federal Railroad Administration, which is responsible for railway safety.

“The tunnel's in compliance with FRA regulations,” said Minkoff. “The tunnel's safe, our customers are safe, just as passengers have been going through the tunnel the last hundred years.”

Train tunnel fires are rare, but when they happen they pose incredible hazards. When a freight train derailed beneath Baltimore July 18, 2001, the fire burned unchallenged for days. Imagine if this had been a passenger train.

The Seattle Fire Department used the Baltimore accident as an example of why the Great Northern Tunnel needs upgrades.

Seattle firefighters even tested some cost-effective solutions, such as portable fans, which are cheaper than building a ventilation system in the tunnel.

“Prudence and good public policy mean that these improvements need to be made," said Tom Till, former deputy administrators for the Federal Railroad Administration. Till currently works at the Discovery Institute, a public policy think tank in Seattle.

Till said the FRA’s standards are at the bare minimum, and Sound Transit owes more to the firefighters who would respond to a tunnel disaster.

“It's gonna be a real tragedy if we know what needs to be done and don't start doing something about it,” said Till.

The railways are federally regulated, and no one that KING 5 has talked to has suggested Sound Transit is deliberately trying to be unsafe.

Sound Transit clearly doesn’t want to get stuck with the entire bill for safety upgrades to a tunnel that used by many other trains.

In fact, Sound Transit hopes to strike some kind of agreement with the Seattle Fire Department soon, and then go out and look for funding partners to pay for those upgrades.

Of course it's OK for a public transit agency to skimp on safety because hey, it's public transit, and public transit is good, and if you don't support it the terrorists will win and follow us home why do you hate America? No wait, that's the right wing bullshit line, what's the left wing one? Oh yeah, global warming, dead penguins, no more cute polar bears, everyone should ride their bike to work.

Of course it's also apparently OK for a public transit agency to encourage sprawl and massively subsidize it, which is what ST is doing with Sounder rail. But hey, that doesn't matter how wasteful or inefficient it is, it's a train, and trains are a good thing that we should not question.

@2 Jesus, I haven't read such a well-worded post that exactly articulates how I feel...well, ever. I wish the baby boomers would just die already.

@26

Basically, if there's an earthquake large enough to bring down the Viaduct, then the seawall is also fucked. But hey, don't take my word for it; here's what the state Department of Transportation has to say:

"Shortly after the Nisqually earthquake, a 100-foot-long by 10-foot-wide section of the Alaskan Way surface street settled, raising concerns about the condition of the Alaskan Way Seawall (Seattle Times 2001). The seawall holds the soil in place along Seattle's waterfront. The seawall also holds the Alaskan Way surface street and many utilities in place. The viaduct's foundations are also embedded in the soil held back by the seawall. If the seawall were to fail, sections of the viaduct, the Alaskan Way surface street, and adjacent structures and utilities could collapse or become unsafe.

"Further investigations have been conducted to assess the seawall's condition. These investigations have shown that the seawall's condition is worse than expected and needs to be replaced. The seawall continues to deteriorate despite regular maintenance by the City of Seattle. Soils underneath the roadway moved and liquefied during the Nisqually earthquake. Liquefaction is what can happen to loose, wet soils when shaking motion from an earthquake causes the soil to turn into a quicksand-like condition.

"In addition, marine organisms called gribbles have been eating away at the timbers that support the seawall. Inspections have shown that substantial portions of the seawall's timber support structures have been weakened or destroyed by the gribbles.

"The Nisqually earthquake highlighted the inevitable fact that the viaduct and seawall are nearing the end of their useful lives, and it’s time to replace them."

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/viaductSeawall.htm

@26

Basically, if there's an earthquake large enough to bring down the Viaduct, then the seawall is also fucked. But hey, don't take my word for it; here's what the state Department of Transportation has to say:

"Shortly after the Nisqually earthquake, a 100-foot-long by 10-foot-wide section of the Alaskan Way surface street settled, raising concerns about the condition of the Alaskan Way Seawall (Seattle Times 2001). The seawall holds the soil in place along Seattle's waterfront. The seawall also holds the Alaskan Way surface street and many utilities in place. The viaduct's foundations are also embedded in the soil held back by the seawall. If the seawall were to fail, sections of the viaduct, the Alaskan Way surface street, and adjacent structures and utilities could collapse or become unsafe.

"Further investigations have been conducted to assess the seawall's condition. These investigations have shown that the seawall's condition is worse than expected and needs to be replaced. The seawall continues to deteriorate despite regular maintenance by the City of Seattle. Soils underneath the roadway moved and liquefied during the Nisqually earthquake. Liquefaction is what can happen to loose, wet soils when shaking motion from an earthquake causes the soil to turn into a quicksand-like condition.

"In addition, marine organisms called gribbles have been eating away at the timbers that support the seawall. Inspections have shown that substantial portions of the seawall's timber support structures have been weakened or destroyed by the gribbles.

"The Nisqually earthquake highlighted the inevitable fact that the viaduct and seawall are nearing the end of their useful lives, and it’s time to replace them."

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/viaductSeawall.htm

Well- can we talk for ten more years - and if it does not create a park, why bother?

Yes the seawall - how could we forget - I think the discussions got side tracked and became - a lot autos - pro and con.

So expert about ignoring infrastructure - seems that is what this post is all about.

FIX THE FUCKING SEAWALL

FIX THE VIADUCT PROBLEM

I favor a tunnel with a viaduct on top of it, and surface transit in-between.

@35
That is absolutely ridiculous. The south portion should be a viaduct, the middle a surface street, and the north a tunnel.

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