Such Christian like behavior.

and this is why I remain willfully barren. To keep from bringing more like him into this world

Elmer Gantry lives on.

There's the paradox: people like him reproduce extravagantly, while people with functioning brains and ethics don't.

""We are in a city with less children per capita than any city but San Francisco," he declares, "and we consider it our personal mission to turn that around."

Yeah. And what do you want to bet they bitch about how much the schools cost, and vote against any bond issues? Oh wait - they'll probably home school, which means a whole crop of morons needing unskilled labor positions.

And what happens when the little bastards grow up and start talking back? What's the good reverend going to do about that? Hogtie them? Stay tuned for another scandal involving clergy.

Macho Christianity is nothing new, but I wish people would start seeing through it. Just as every generation thinks they invented sex, it seems that every generation feels the need to think they invented religion.

No, Fnarf, The Paradox is Mars Hill's attempt to ensnare young music fans with all-ages shows.

Awesome! I can't wait to support a venue that pays rent to this totally cool church! Let's go see Xiu Xiu there next time they're in town!

I posted about this last week on metroblogging seattle and got some interesting comments from church members and paradox volunteers -->

seattle.metblogs.com/.../mars_hill_in_salon

Christians don't want teenagers to fuck and Jews think god wants them to suck blood out of baby cocks. Only idiots believe in religion.

The Stranger raised $3,000 for Katrina relief, that's more than any Christian organization donated.

The Torah is good for wiping your ass with, the bible works just as well.

Even New York Public Health can't stop Rabbis from sucking blood from baby cock because god tells them to. Check out what Slate says;

http://www.slate.com/id/2133654/

It looks like they're about to open a Mars Hill branch on 35th SW in West Seattle. Will these psychopaths stop at nothing? Why do they have to spread their hate and lies everywhere?
He's hoping a high interest rate mortgage blows them into the breadline.

http://www.electrolicious.com/archives/2006/09/mars_hell.html#continued

Re: The comments on Metroblog:

I love how the Paradox folks always claim there's no affiliation between them and the church, as if using their building and paying them rent doesn't mean anything.

is there really nothing that can be done about shit like what "religion sucks" does? free speech and all, but it's the same thing every time, and really fucking annoying.

Didn't The Stranger sort of beat Salon to the punch on this a short while back?

Does anyone know offhand where in the archives the Stranger article on the church is?

I love how the Paradox folks always claim there's no affiliation between them and the church, as if using their building and paying them rent doesn't mean anything.

While it is a bit disheartening to know that the Paradox is considered a missionary project for members of Mars Hill, I will still continue to support the venue because by doing so I am also supporting the staff (who don't attend the church), the bands who play there (who are very often up & coming and hardworking local bands who also don't attend the church), and the all-ages music scene in general.

I understand why people don’t go to the Paradox, but the Paradox is 100% about the music community and not the church at all. It’s a non-profit organization. Mars Hill is simply their landlord who allows them to use the space, and the church makes nothing off of the Paradox. It’s non-profit. So worry not. Your $7 admission price isn’t going into Driscoll’s pocket. It goes to the bands, and to cover the costs of running the venue alone. No profit is made. No bibles are passed out. No preaching is done.

google.com/search?q=mars-hill+site:thestranger.com

Mark, the Salon article is actually a one-chapter excerpt from a book called "Righteous: Dispatches from the Evangelical Youth Movement." According to the blog of "Pastor Mark" ( theresurgence.com/md_blog_2006-09-19_its_always_something_at_mars_hill_church ), the writer met with the Mars Hill folks several years ago, so it's been in the works for some time.

SneakyFreak already linked my blog post about visiting Mars Hill this weekend ... it was really a trip. Totally terrifying and awful and well-worth the visit. Totally not my scene, but a remarkable work of evil genius. As I said in my blog post, the church felt like a dotcom -- rather, a GODcom.

Fair enough, Megan. The church isn't turning a profit from the Paradox and no proselytizing occurs there. But why should we allow our local music scene to be subsidized by organizations we find repugnant?

The Paradox wouldn't exist unless at Mars Hill unless it served the church's mission somehow (street cred? potential converts?). For me, that is plenty of reason to avoid shows there and advocate for alternative venues that aren't at all religiously affiliated.

Oh, and ask the November Group how supportive the Paradox is of bands that voice ideals contradicting evangelical christianity.

I'm 41 years old, and haven't gone to see a band since I was probably 30, although I used to love to go to shows.

Back in my "all ages" day, the drinking age was 19, and minors could come into venues to see bands, as long as the drinkers stayed in what was called a "beer corral", so the whole problem of being underage and wanting to see bands is foreign to me.

But the whole idea of a "hip" church is even more foreign to me. How can anyone take that kind of shit seriously? That minister sounds like one of those frat boys who finds Jesus after a drunken night spent "experimenting" with his roommate, if you know what I mean.

Anyone who's actualy young and actually hip knows that the only praying you are to do is at the knees of the porceline god

Paradox is funded by Mars Hill. While a few of the people who run the Paradox are not members of the 'church' (probably better referred to a a cult at this point), most of the people that work there are. The reason the church funds the Paradox is to to 'outreach' to the youth music community. They are using 'alternative culture' to reach out to our community. Then they can bring you into their church where they teach you about the evils of homosexuality, tell you how women should submit to men, jesus is the only way to salvation, everyone else is going to hell, etc, etc.

I have been to shows at the Paradox and there are people from the church walking around with huge bibles, church porpoganda around, and lots of christian t-shirts preaching the good word. The propoganda isn't as outward as it could be, instead the church uses the subtle marketing techniques common with other corporations marketing to this demographic. But make no mistake that it is there.

It is inexcusable for the staff of the Paradox to attach itself to Mars Hill. If any other all ages venue was funded by groups that preached the hate and discrimination that Driscoll does, there would be a massice outcry from the community. This is a trend around the US. There are even evangelical christian conferences on how to set up programs like Mars Hill in your community. Don't be foooled by the Paradox. If they truly didn't support the hate speech of Driscoll they would get the hell off of church property and stop taking Driscoll's funding.

jacksonville actually has this same thing. and meinert is correct about them. it's actually called murray hill here though. weird.

Christians should not be allowed to own businesses catering to teenagers. Christianity is a religion of hatred.

It's unfair to say "most of the people who work there are (members of the church)." That just isn't true. The folks that run the Paradox are volunteers. And whether or not some of the kids who work concessions go to the church, I can't say, I don't know them all. But I do know the main staff and the folks who run the shows (do the sound, promotions, booking, etc), do not attend Mars Hill.

And I have been to dozens and dozens and dozens of shows at the Paradox. At both at the old space on the Ave (which was also affiliated with Mars Hill) and the current space in Ballard. Never once have I seen anyone walking around with "huge bibles" nor have I have ever been approached by a member of the church. I’ve also seen hardcore bands bash Christianity and voice opposite opinions than the church’s regarding everything from homosexuality to marriage.

The Paradox’s website says it themselves: “Don’t assume that your religious beliefs as a band will ensure your being booked at The Paradox. We are not a Christian venue, nor are we religiously tied to the church that shares our space. We have a partnership with the church to utilize the room, and that is all.”

Members of the church aren't present for Paradox shows, and if they are, they’re just another kid at the show. I've never met or seen Mark Driscoll at a Paradox show, and any time I've met a member of the church there, they were at the show because they liked the band. That’s it. They weren’t recruiting or preaching, they were watching a rock band play some songs and then they went home.

All-ages shows are often a place for “recruiting” of any thing-Army, churches, “beat bush” summer jobs…. I once got asked at a RKCNDY show if I wanted to be saved. It’s a public place full of young people, any local church can go in there and try to find fresh blood. And they do. That’s an obstacle kids face just walking down the street. The Paradox can’t ensure there won’t be wolves in the crowd, nor can the Vera Project, the Old Fire House, Neumo’s, etc. Anyone can go to a show with a bible. That isn’t something exclusive to the Paradox because of Mars Hill.

i have seen Mars Hill members walking around the paradox with bibles, so I guess we have had different experiences. And yes, many of the volunteers are church members, though you are right, the three volunteers that run it are not. However, my point is simple - the Paradox is funded by Mars Hill. Mars Hill spends this money to support the Paradox because it is effective outreach that targets youth into 'alternative' culture. Supporting the Paradox supports the evangelical missionary goal of Mars Hill, an organization that is openly anti-gay and promoted discrimination agaist women.
It is interesting to me that any all ages venue with ties to an organization that preaches the hate that Driscoll does is supported by the community. It is even more odd that the Stranger, who spends a lot of ink going after poeple like Rev. Hutcherson and other people promoting discrimination, allows this one to get by. I would guess that the Stranger wouldn't run adds promoting the anti-gay agenda of MArs Hill, but it effectively does so by promoting the Paradox, which promoters Mars Hill and their anti-gay agenda.

You know, everyone is right on some level and also wrong about trying to simplify the way that culture and cultural spaces shape our identity and our notion of community. Bars, coffee shops, baber shops, etc are some of the cultural spaces of today. The best of these businesses learn how to get people in not by spending tons of money on advertising and having specials, but by creating the environment that people want to be in and making space for relationships to form. Guess who else does that really well? Churches and to be fair, other nonprofit spaces. If you create an open welcoming space with all the hottest bands (and the church to foot the bill on their guarantees) and it functions as one of the only all-ages spaces in the city, guess who gets new fans besides the bands? Even this almost oversimplifies the complex way that all the factors work together to bring young people into a conservative mindset that seems less offensive once presented in body jelewery and ink. The hardest part about all of this is that for the most part, people involved are either ignorant to the complexities, want to be ignorant to the underlying agenda, or feel that they are on a righteous path to being good christians and therefore good citizens. Many folks are a part of the Christian Right's coopting of youth culture because they care deeply about the future of young people and want to dedicate their lives to helping/saving them, while not acknowledgin that that their work's impetus comes from a racist, mysogynist, homophobic and genocidal institutional origins. In the case of the paradox, the people running it care deeply about indie music and believe in providing an all-ages space. Who knows how they rationalize the church part?

Churches have long provided space for all-ages shows and been in an important part of keeping the all-ages scene alive in communities across the country. You can tell the ones that are have an underlying investment by how much money they spend on creating a marquee that is ironically more prominent than their sign that bears the church name.

Jews leave young people alone. It's only Christians and their hate religion that tries to teach young people about Christ.

Jews only teach Jewish children about Israel and Torah. That is nothing like the hatred Christians spread to hour children.

It is even more odd that the Stranger, who spends a lot of ink going after poeple like Rev. Hutcherson and other people promoting discrimination, allows this one to get by. I would guess that the Stranger wouldn't run adds promoting the anti-gay agenda of MArs Hill, but it effectively does so by promoting the Paradox, which promoters Mars Hill and their anti-gay agenda.

I’m unclear on how supporting the Paradox means you’re also supporting Mars Hill.

By promoting Paradox events, neither I (nor the Stranger) are supporting Mars Hill or their anti-gay agenda. Money that the Paradox makes isn’t funding the church. Trust me. What they make during a Sunday sermon is enough. As I said before, the Paradox is a non-profit venue. It’s not self-sufficient, no, so Mars Hill does technically fund it, but if anything, Mars Hill is losing money by keeping the Paradox open.

How is taking advantage of Mars Hill’s “kindness” by using the space as a secular all-ages venue (in a city that needs more of them) any different than having a punk show in a church basement (which used to happen all the time when I was growing up) or getting a bunch of free shit from Focus on the Family “thereby taking money out of the pockets of anti-gay bigots” (which The Stranger urged people to do back in August in a story called “Shopping Spree” by Noel Black—http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=54084)?

By being at a Paradox show, people aren’t supporting Mars Hill. They’re supporting the bands playing that night, and the nice staff who run the place (two strong independent women who don’t attend the church). Members of Mars Hill aren’t present, and Paradox showgoers are not forced to listen to Mars Hill’s bullshit while there. Aside from the sign out front (on the other side of the building) there’s no evidence of the church’s presence—no one preaches during the shows, no one asks for donations to the church, there are no pamphlets or bibles sitting out… in spirit, it’s an entirely separate entity. So Mars Hill is footing the bill. They ask for nothing in return, and really, they’re not getting anything either.

rock music is pagan and that this "church" is using/hosting pagan music in the HOUSE OF GOD to snag believers is blaspheming God. see, that ain't how it's supposed to be done! and blasphemy is the unforgivable sin committed ONLY by unbelievers, so by condoning this behavior this church is digging their graves straight to hell. and as they feel free to blaspheme, they (as the Bible says) aren't REAL Christians at all, they are probably Satanists...so there, it's okay to hang out there, they ain't Christian at all!

Megan

please read Stella Marie's post above. The Paradox serves as a way for Mars Hill to do outreach to youth. That is why Mars Hill funds the Paradox. Why else do you think Mars Hill would commit space and money to support 'secular' (not all are) shows? It's called marketing, and it is proving to be effective. As a result, supporting the Paradox is supporting Mars Hill's outreach and marketing to our community. The purpose of the outreach is of course for the church to gain new members. It's really simple. As a person who grew up in an evangelical church the game is all too obvious.

I am not saying people shouldn't go to the paradox, nor am I saying the Stranger shouldn't promote their shows or take their advertising dollars. I am just pointing out that it is ironic, and a bit sad, that the Stranger, who normally promotes a very progressive political view (and very pro-gay) supports shows that serve as outreach for such a fucked up organization.

The people who run the Paradox are by all accounts great people, but they have chosen to close their eyes to part of what they are doing - which is serving as the youth outreach for a homophobic, mysogynist, right wing organization.

Dave, it looks to me like your beef with the Paradox is that Mars Hill is wasting money on it, money that might otherwise go to abstinence-only sex ed programs or anti-abortion mailings or any of the other things that Mars Hill does that people like you and me find directly objectionable.

If we're not hearing about kids who have been dragooned into brainwashed christ-worship while watching bands at the Paradox, or about booking decisions dictated by the church, or about propaganda efforts mandated at the venue, or, you know, other activity that's actually objectionable, then why not let Mars Hill blow as much money as they like on the place?

Where should Mars Hill throw their money, if not at the Paradox?

Robot - not a bad point. But I would argue that the money isn't being wasted. Mars hill is not stupid (vile, offensive yes), they know how to market their brand of right wing evangelical christianity and they do it very effectively. Paradox, whether they admit it or not, is an effective way to brand Mars Hill, and an effective way to get new alterno-kids 'saved' (meaning they become desciples of 'god' giving their money to Driscoll). Mars Hill is basically the brand sponsor of the Paradox, and the Paradox is the face of Mars Hill to the underground rock scene in Seattle. It is a very well thought out use of Mars Hill's money, and if it was not effective, they would stop spending the money as they would with any other sort of promotion they are doing for their business. Like it or not, the Paradox is a recruiting tool for a homophobic, mysognyst, right wing organization. Ignore it at you peril.

If they didn't throw it there, the would probably throw it at other mainstream secular cultural endeavors, like most evangelical churches trying to appeal to young hipsters. . . it's good stategy to invest in both the stuff that will push (not just social but) the POLITICAL agenda as well as the stuff that ups the numbers of involvement.


from their website:


"When people think of missionaries, they usually picture travelers preaching the gospel in distant, foreign lands. While sending missionaries abroad is important, it’s also important to send people across the street. Mars Hill Church desires to cultivate localized missionaries who will first reach their surrounding CULTURES and then branch out to the world. "


And sometimes you don't need to cross the street becuase you can just bring those cultures into the building and into the culture of the church.

Dave, you've said over and over again that the Paradox is a recruiting tool for Mars Hill, but there's a problem with that— where are the recruits?

It's all very well to accuse Seattle's young rock fans of being impressionable fools who can't distinguish right-wing religious doctrine from guitar feedback, but where's your evidence? Can you tell us where we might find some of these poor rock-a-teens who have been converted to hard-right religion by attending shows at the Paradox?

Come on, Dave. Were you that stupid when you were 14?

would someone please explain what exactly is homophobic, mysongist, right-wing, etc... about Mars Hill? That seems to be the general assumption, but besides the quote from the book are there any other examples?

Mars Hill is sometimes erroneously referred to as an "emerging" church. Far from it. It's a FUNDAMENTALIST church.

An "Emerging" or "Emergent" church is distinguished by its courage to reclaim and embrace a gracious, loving, forgiving God in place of the stern, judgmental, often seemingly hostile God of Fundamentalism. The "Emergent" name reflects the fact that many (if not most) of its members have experienced Fundamentalism as oppressive, confining, and heavily focused on the negative and threatening aspects of the God–human relationship in general, and have left (emerged from) it as a result.

Like all Christians, Emergents believe that we all have sinned and are saved by grace through faith in Christ, but the Emergent understanding of God and Christ, and the living out of that understanding, differ radically from the Fundamentalist view. The Emerging church is made up of individuals and congregations working to move beyond Fundamentalism into a "bigger" Christianity emphasizing God's gracious love for us in Christ, and the freedom granted to us by that love and grace to love God fearlessly and without reservation and, in turn, to love our neighbor as ourselves without reservation.

(Yes, that's a lot of times to say "grace" and "love" in two short paragraphs, but it can't be said often enough: Grace and love, not anger and condemnation, are the very definition of God's gift of Christ to us.)

That freedom includes:

[1] "soul liberty"—the freedom to search the Scriptures and our own hearts and grow into an authentic relationship with God based on how God reveals God's self to each of us, rather than on imposed interpretations, dogmas, or other formulas.

[2] "soul competency"—the wisdom and discernment God gives to each and every one of us to guide that growth process, without interference from hierarchies or other human "authority."

[3] the freedom (indeed, the obligation, for with every true freedom comes responsibility) to face our doubts and ask the hard questions, because only by asking those questions prayerfully and listening for God's answers in our day-to-day experience can we continue to grow in understanding, faith, and grace.

[4] the freedom (indeed, the obligation) to express ALL our God-given abilities, free of restriction or stereotype, for in Christ "there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female." The church is a priesthood of ALL believers, not only of the pastor or other "official" clergy, or of the male half of the church only. No role in the church or the world should be closed to anyone—including women and sexual minorities—whom God may choose to call.

As for that pesky Timothy: In at least one translation, Paul's words read, "I AM NOT CURRENTLY ALLOWING"—certainly NOT "God forbids"—a woman to teach. But no matter how we translate the passage, it contradicts the majority of Paul's other writings on the subject as well as ALL his recorded actions. Paul openly acknowledged and worked with a number of women as leaders and full partners in ministry.

More to the point, Paul's words here contradict Jesus himself, who befriended and respected women, spoke freely with them in defiance of custom, depended on them for material and moral support, and made them the first witnesses to his resurrection. Not to follow the Man's own example to the best of our ability, in this or anything else, is—to put it bluntly—a sin.

[5] the freedom to experience the deep, wide, ever-expanding range of wonders, possibilities, growth, and other joys of the "life abundant" and to live that life courageously and with abandon.

An excellent example of Emergent/Emerging Christianity may be found at www.theporpoisedivinglife.com.

According the Mark Driscoll's Blog, he IS the founder of Paradox.

Mark is the founder of Mars Hill Church (1996), the Paradox Theater, the Acts 29 Network, and the Resurgence Missional Theology Cooperative.