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Tuesday, July 8, 2008

They Forgot About the “Thinking” Part

posted by on July 8 at 19:00 PM

In case you hadn’t heard, there’s a bit of a blow-up over two editors at the Gawker-owned feminist web site, Moe Tcakik and Tracie Egan, who appeared, representing Jezebel, an event called “Thinking and Drinking” last week. The host of the show, Lizz Winstead, says she asked them to do the onstage interview because “their work on Jezebel has made them role models for young women everywhere.” She wanted to talk to them about Hillary and sexism, women’s magazines and whether they “feel any obligation to write about responsibility and safety when they write graphically about their sex lives.” But things quickly went off the rails, as you’ll see when you watch the video.


On safe-sex choices:

Moe: Withdrawal has always worked for me.

Tracie: One hundred percent.

On rape:

Tracie: People are always saying it’s not safe to go home with strange men, blah, blah blah, like Mr. Goodbar whatever.

Moe: What’s gonna happen??

Lizz: You could get raped.

Moe: That’s happening too, but you live through that, you know?

Lizz: Sometimes you don’t.

Moe: That’s true, if they have weapons.

Tracie: I’m not going to bring someone home and be like, not tonight.

Lizz… But that’s just not how rape works! If you bring a guy home and you want to fuck him and he’s like guess what, I’m a psycho, and when I look in your face I want to kill you…

Tracie: I live in Williamsburg, there aren’t very, um, assertive men there.

Moe: The thing about the rapists of our generation, is that they’re not very assertive men, but they all use drugs, they all have some sort of drug they use on you, so it’s good to feel, and I don’t know if this has happened to me or if I just drink too much but there are times when… It’s really hard to prosecute them (rapists), so you should try to avoid them at all costs. But you know, I don’t know, it’s a very strange line.

Tracie: I moved to New York when I was 18 and you think you would encounter more rapists in this big city , but, I don’t know, I haven’t. I always, I don’t know if I attract, like, dudes that want to be dominated or something?

Moe: I attract rapists.

Tracie: I once paid someone to rape me once.

Lizz: Well, first of all, you cannot pay someone to rape you. You are a willing accomplice. You have said, rape me now, it’s not rape. ..

Tracie: I think even though I’m a feminist I just have this issue where I naturally dominate everybody and so I had this like fantasy where I like wanted to be dominated so I paid someone—well, I didn’t pay someone, I had a magazine pay for it—

Lizz: That is two steps removed from rape.

On date rape:

Moe: I’ve totally been like victimized, and I think that I kind of must broadcast something. But the point is that, like, I think you were saying what do you regret in terms of sexual experiences and I guess I regret like being date raped.

But, you know, it seems like in terms of kind of bad sexual experiences that you’ve had the worst ones always seem to be in countries where sex is not accepted. I mean, that is the good thing about New York, it’s like, I’ve never has any problems with anyone here

I guess third guy, I ever had sex with, date raped me, and I got very mad at him, but I wasn’t gonna fucking like turn him in to the police and fucking go through shit.

Lizz: Why not, you see that’s the problem, why not, I am just curious?

Moe: Because it was a load of trouble and I had better things to do, like drinking more.

On how to not get yourself raped:

Tracie: I have to honestly say that like, I know that it happens to girls who are smart, who know what they’re doing, and blah blah blah, but like, I’ve never ever been in that situation and I’ve had lots and lots and lots of sex with a lot of people in my life. Maybe it’s about education or something.

Lizz: Maybe you’re lucky.

Tracie: I think it has to do with the fact that I am like, smart. Don’t hiss! When I see myself in a situation that’s not cool—I get wasted and stuff but like when I see myself in a situation I’m out. I’ve never hung around with frat guys. I took self-defense classes.

Moe: Yeah but it’s like that Holocaust poem, you know…

Tracie: I’m just saying I’ve never been in that situation.

Moe: I always felt very like, safe around this guy even after he date raped me.

Lizz: You’re digging yourself a huge hole, darlin’. You were not safe with him, he raped you!

Moe: All I’m saying is that he didn’t seem like a guy who was like a date rapist.

Lizz: You can’t identify where latent rage and anger and all that is. It doesn’t have a look, it doesn’t have a style, it doesn’t have any of that.

Moe: But it’s also, like, ridiculous to be like, you can never know, you have to be on guard at all times, it’s like, the war on terror.

On being role models:

Tracie: Anybody that would emulate someone else is not with it completely.

Lizz: Hello? We have a, like, 75 bazillion dollar television budget that is based on emulation! What are you talking about? Your whole blog is based on people emulating you. Regardless of whether you think they should! That’s like when football players say I am not a role model. You’re a de facto role model.

Tracie: That’s like undermining their intelligence to make their own decisions.

Now, it’s not like I’ve never said dumb shit when I’m drunk. But you know what? I’ve also never gone onstage, wasted, representing the Stranger, and made a complete ass of myself in front of a bunch of people who paid to see me speak. If I was their employer—hell, if I was their friend— I’d be sad as hell to watch these two smart, funny ladies make themselves look and sound like complete fucking assholes. If you’re gonna be a public person, you’ve got to take responsibility for your public actions. And tossing up a whiny post about how bad your hangover is ain’t gonna cut it.

RSS icon Comments


Do you know how to post most of your stuff after a "jump," or is this just some kind of power play?

Posted by Jubilation T. Cornball | July 8, 2008 6:11 PM


Posted by tsm | July 8, 2008 6:12 PM

Wow you really need to LIGHTEN UP. You are so missing the point on this one. It's kind of a post-post-pseudo modern thing. Nobody is advocating any of the bad things you imagine. It's fun, it's entertaining, it's two incredibly cool and smart women who understand the world a lot better than you do. That's why they had an audience.

If you're going to be a public person, my ass. I mean REALLY. Nice lecture.

Posted by huh? | July 8, 2008 6:27 PM

Well, from the graphic displayed behind them I surmise that they at least they got to discuss the use of Photoshop and its role in propagating an unreachable body ideal in the media before the discussion degenerated into regrettable drunken babbling. That should count for something.

Posted by flamingbanjo | July 8, 2008 6:29 PM

feminism is officially dead.

Posted by shivers | July 8, 2008 6:32 PM

@4 my thoughts exactly... the REDBOOK cover perfectly illustrates the serious intellectual, academic discussion that was intended for the event.

Posted by Glamour | July 8, 2008 6:37 PM

I don't know, I kinda feel like they were ambushed. Watching the clip, they're obviously wasted, and the I gotta give the host some shit for laying into them when it was pretty clear that they weren't thinking straight. And it is supposed to be a comedy show. Not to defend what they said, but the host did her best to drive it there.

Posted by johna | July 8, 2008 6:41 PM

That was, like, hard to read. I will never understand feminism and how to identify feminists. Never, like, ever.

Posted by I'm like, totally down with this ECB post. | July 8, 2008 6:45 PM

Is it me or did you just call Tracie Egan a "complete fucking asshole" ?

Nice manners. I guess writing for the Slog has got you feeling a bit envious of Jezebel and their success?

Certainly doesn't do much to tamper all the hate-fueled comments on this blog when the authors themselves are willing to call fellow, generally like-minded bloggers "complete fucking assholes."

Posted by And you are? | July 8, 2008 6:45 PM

I am so angry, disappointed, disgusted, and dismayed I could cry. But I'm too fucking pissed off to cry. I had to stop the video, the "Jezebels" we making me sick. NONE of what they said was even remotely funny. At best, not enough young women will see that interview to be as dismayed as myself. At worst, all the young women who read Jezebel will feel victimized, betrayed, and hurt--not to mention stupid--for listening. Fuck the fact that they're public figures. I wouldn't let my friends, male or female, spew that sexist, degrading, ignorant shit in my vicinity. I'm left wondering who is really on my side...if anyone is really on my side.

Posted by Elizabeth | July 8, 2008 6:56 PM

Too long.

Posted by RainMan | July 8, 2008 6:59 PM

Don't know nuthin' about Tcakik and Egan, ... but from the transcript and the clip the best thing I can say about them is they come off as, like, annoying, and like, ignorant and , like, disturbing.

Posted by umvue | July 8, 2008 7:08 PM

"At worst, all the young women who read Jezebel will feel victimized, betrayed, and hurt--not to mention stupid..."

Isn't that why they read Jezebel in the first place? Man, if I was ever going to be a feminist or feminist sympathizer the posts by Erica and comments by whiney chicks don't make me want to go there. But don't you worry - I will keep holding doors open and paying for everything while you all moan about how tough it is to be a chick.

Posted by Andrea Dworkin | July 8, 2008 7:09 PM

Ugh, I can't believe this happened (the event and not your post).

It's not a matter of feminism anymore, it's a matter of intelligence and personal logic versus group-think.

It is disgusting that this kind of shit exists, and gets air time.

Posted by Mo | July 8, 2008 7:13 PM

Wow. Women are feminism's worst enemy. These women, at least.

Posted by Fnarf | July 8, 2008 7:16 PM

Time to boycott Jezebel.

Posted by Bub | July 8, 2008 7:16 PM

Shit, that's nothing -- this Jezebel video will really blow your mind:

Posted by Jubilation T. Cornball | July 8, 2008 7:25 PM

OMG! I've never read Jezebel, but these women are fucking morons if they really believe everything they said in that video! As for the crap about it just being a post-post-pseudo-whatever wave feminist haha jokie funny thing: puuuuuuuhhhhleeeeeze! There is actually a point where feminism ends and pretending to be all cool and hip and ultra-mod and on the down-lo and gettin' jiggy with the glamazons doesn't cut the cake anymore. Those women(?) should be ashamed! And WTF is all the hate for Erica all the time???

Posted by Kristin Bell | July 8, 2008 7:32 PM

Cue the Visagoths.

These individuals are not adults. They are children. Stupid. Disturbed. Children.

Wow. @15: you called it.

Posted by Laurence Ballard | July 8, 2008 7:38 PM

Too long.

But the part I read sounded like ECB catnip. I can only imagine how excited Erica must be to be feuding with these women over all the things they should not have said.

Keep us posted with what you say about them and what they say about what you said about them and how angry you get and whatnot.

Posted by elenchos | July 8, 2008 7:55 PM

The whole thing is typical of hipster navel gazing new yorkers. This sound like every conversation you hear by the self important desperately trying to be special people as you walk through Brooklyn.

Posted by cbc | July 8, 2008 7:59 PM

Oh please - Jezebel is hardly the equivalent of 'psych et po', it's more like 'OK' Magazine just slightly left-of-center feminist perspective, but mostly self-indulgent cynicism fueled by pop culture blogmania and alotta weed.... so I don't know why there's this we-expect-better-of-you condemnation from Huffpro... Anyone who has ever watched Tracy and her wasted team in 'Pot Pyschology' knows that she's not exactly the most articulate person. She frequently has bad advice for her readers (admitting that she does not use condoms, might have std's,etc). Not defending them or Jezebel here (*b/c yes people say some stupid shite) - but it appears to me that maybe Huffpro is using this situation to their end. Lizz seems to be making a mountain out of a Tracy and Mo-hill. Also - the editor did issue this apology, soooo, yes - lessons learned, don't drink and go on record...

Posted by yerbamatty | July 8, 2008 8:29 PM

These sound like young feminists in touch with the concerns of their generation. Perhaps ECB could learn something from them.

Posted by David Wright | July 8, 2008 8:37 PM

I guarantee that if you got me drunk and put me on TV I would (a) swear a thousand percent more and (b) not make embarrassingly illiberal and stupid statements like these bitches. Stupid? Maybe. But not the OPPOSITE of what I pretend to believe the rest of the time.

Posted by Fnarf | July 8, 2008 9:03 PM

The problem with those two "smart, funny ladies" is that they aren't funny, and they aren't smart. Add in a little alcohol and you have a real horrorshow. I applaud the hostess for making them look like the jackasses they are.

Posted by croydonfacelift | July 8, 2008 9:05 PM

@9: It's just you. I said both of them looked and sounded like complete fucking assholes. Perhaps a reading comprehension class would help?

@25: I totally disagree. Although there are a lot of things Tracie's written that I wouldn't defend, I think Moe is a fucking brilliant writer and a super smart woman. If you don't read Jezebel now, it's worth a few minutes checking her posts out.

Posted by ECB | July 8, 2008 9:16 PM

oh ok ECB, saying they look and sound like complete fucking assholes instead of saying they ARE complete fucking assholes is much, much better. You're a classy lady after all.

Perhaps a reading comprehension class would help - wow, very witty.

Posted by right | July 8, 2008 9:39 PM

oh ok ECB, saying they look and sound like complete fucking assholes instead of saying they ARE complete fucking assholes is much, much better. You're a classy lady after all.

Perhaps a reading comprehension class would help - wow, very witty.

Posted by right | July 8, 2008 9:40 PM

Hah... de facto role models? Who gives a shit. Was Vick a de facto role model? Whatever this whole circle jerk including the woman who has a show about drinking and talking, jezebel and this post is all about advertising cash. There's no here here.

Raise your daughters well because a woman nicknamed "Slut Machine" isn't going to do it for you. No one's going to do it for you. You have to at least pick your influences and (aka Cosmo meets meets meets valleywag meets slog) is probably not a great one.

Feel all alone in the world and looking for other women who can help you understand life? Well we're all alone and friends aren't advertising supported.

Posted by daniel | July 8, 2008 9:44 PM

Wow. So, I give her some sass, which was nowhere near outlandish considering her voice, and she deletes them. Even when I even bought her Maniac from her wishlist and explained how I was doing so because I really felt she could relate to the film.

What a fucking whiny cunt. And to think I give ECB shit.

Posted by Mr. Poe | July 8, 2008 9:53 PM

And now they're back. Huh. Never mind.

Posted by Mr. Poe | July 8, 2008 10:02 PM

Not much thinking happens when you're drinking, ladies.

p.s. I am fond of Jezebel, but drinking and talking (especially in public), not such a hot idea.

Posted by yucca flower | July 8, 2008 10:06 PM

Also will add that regardless of gender, the whole 'drunk hipster meme' is about 10 years done and done...

Posted by yerbamatty | July 8, 2008 10:21 PM


If you're paying for anything, then you're not dating feminists.

Posted by keshmeshi | July 8, 2008 10:25 PM

@34 -- Seriously? Feminists always go Dutch? Seriously???

I'm gonna start answering Smith College personal ads and save some money. I'd rather date a chick with armpit hair who pays than a sullen bird who demands I throw down.

Thanks for the tip.

Posted by Catherine MacKinnon | July 8, 2008 10:30 PM

So it seems to me that Moe hasn't dealt with her rape at all for her to try & say she was OK with the guy who victimized her. So it was a poor decision on her part, representing a feminist blog, to drink & discuss rape.

Tracie, on the other hand, said some ignorant things (like she's too smart to be raped, but she ain't psychic, is she?). Besides a few of her comments, I think she was just being honest.

Posted by Katie Blake | July 8, 2008 11:04 PM

Moe is a hell of a writer and has penned some good pieces for the washington post, the wall street journal and others. she has written good pieces on trade and international politics, i dont know what she was trying to do here, but it seems that the whole celebrity internet star personalities who are playing characters kind of blew up here. too bad. she just seemed a wee drunk. i think youre a bit harsh E.

Posted by SeMe | July 8, 2008 11:55 PM

Anyone who doesn't think a blogger who calls herself "SLUT MACHINE" should act like a role model for little girls is a COMPLETE FUCKING ASSHOLE.


Posted by ECB | July 9, 2008 12:11 AM

I can't say I dislike Tracie aka "Slut Machine"... she and Rich were kind enough to address my question in "Pot Psychology", so her comments (as cringe worthy as they are) will not change my opinion of her.

I prefer to think she was just being a typical drunken asshole.

Posted by UNPAID BLOGGER | July 9, 2008 12:42 AM

Lets just some up Feminsisms only reasons to exists:

1) To talk about rape (cause it is the end all be all of human degredation)

2) To talk about abortion (See number one)

Other identity centered niche whiners (Racial, homo, politico, activists) all had a broader agenda. Hell, even the nazi's had a reason to exist other than their love of the Jews.

Femenism is dead. Thanks be to God.

Posted by ecce homo | July 9, 2008 1:26 AM

Um, here's a fucking thought - rape isn't something to joke about and they didn't even do a good job about that!

They were stupid idiots that are NOT feminists by any means as they were advocating that women "get over" their rights of choice (you know, like those silly choices of safer sex, and being mad for getting raped). I can't believe they were on the cusp of claiming that "date-rape" isn't "that bad" because the drugs knock you out.

Kudos to the host for pointing out their bullshit - i use to love onedatatime but now she's a whiny silly girl instead of the bright women i always thought her to be.

Erica - don't listen to morons complaining about the jump issue - getting it all there for people to see was an important decision, keep up the good work!

Posted by darek | July 9, 2008 5:49 AM

Whatever happened to the idea that a normal, sensible person doesn't get in front of microphones when they're tipsy (unless they're singing Karaoke, of course)? It never turns out OK.

Posted by Catalina Vel-DuRay | July 9, 2008 6:24 AM

Since when do people that aren't conservative Republicans think that entertainers need to be role models?

Also... jezebel is not a feminist blog.

Posted by daniel | July 9, 2008 7:32 AM

In unrelated news, I'm real proud of myself right now. I was scrolling down and reading comments and got all up in arms in the middle of a comment, stopped and was like "it's a trap!"

Sure enough, I was in the middle of an ecce homo comment.

Cheers to me! I'm so smart, I'll never get raped!

Posted by Sara | July 9, 2008 7:53 AM

Really, anyone who's visited Jezebel shouldn't be surprised or offended by any of that. It is to feminist websites what The Onion is to news websites.

Erica, I'm surprised you didn't somehow try to make this Obama's fault.

Posted by monkey | July 9, 2008 8:43 AM

I just noticed that they're drinking out of red plastic cups. Way to keep it classy. Douchebags, red cups; the only thing missing is the hot chicks. Or do I have that backwards?

Posted by Fnarf | July 9, 2008 8:45 AM

@46: No, you were right on the money. These girls sound like the ones who used to hang around Earl's on the Ave all the time, not realizing (or maybe not caring?) that the popped-collar assholes they were drinking with brought them there to put out the lights.

Posted by Greg | July 9, 2008 9:21 AM

What's so bad about red plastic cups? I wish I was at a BBQ.

Posted by daniel | July 9, 2008 10:05 AM

@1 for the fucking win. Use a spill or don't post such long articles.

Posted by Will in Seattle | July 9, 2008 10:06 AM

Can we just ignore anything Gawker-related from now on. Hipster kids in Brooklyn who like to party and gossip does not make for good content, even if the NY Times thinks so.

Posted by Mr_Friendly | July 9, 2008 10:24 AM

Best. Comment. Ever.

Moe: "...I guess third guy, I ever had sex with, date raped me, and I got very mad at him, but I wasn’t gonna fucking like turn him in to the police and fucking go through shit."

Feminism lives!

Posted by non-violent femme | July 9, 2008 10:43 AM

And the winner is?

Posted by See you next Tuesday | July 9, 2008 10:57 AM

As a rape "victim" I resent people who make rape into a sacred cow issue. "You can't joke about rape" seems to be a constant battle cry. For me humor is a coping mechanism, if I can laugh at something it becomes less scary.

I am fine with jokes about rape - but what I'm not fine with are women like Tracie and Moe who get stupidly drunk and make me embarrassed to be female. A stupid drunken cunt trying desperately to be edgy is just sad and pathetic.

People can complain about feminism all they want, I'm no bra-burner and I could give a rats ass about reproductive rights, but any woman who has a job outside of the house and gets paid a decent wage owes a debt to feminists.

Posted by Robot | July 9, 2008 11:04 AM

I see these women as little more than extensions of the Vice Magazine culture, where yeah you get drunk and date-raped and have stds and all that other shit, own up to it, live with it or not, and move on.

Posted by NaFun | July 9, 2008 12:49 PM

All I know about Jezebel is what I've read linked from Slog, but this certainly doesn't motivate me to get into it.

The info that did jump out to me (did anyone else make this connection?) was that Lizz Winstead is one of the creators of the Daily Show, with Madeleine Smithberg.

Good to see she's still producing new stuff.

Posted by brinsonian | July 9, 2008 4:52 PM

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