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Saturday, March 22, 2008

Lies and Lying Liars

posted by on March 22 at 9:39 AM

Hillary Clinton edition.

She claimed that there was no welcoming ceremony [on her arrival in Bosnia in 1996] because it was too dangerous, sniper fire was everywhere, she had to run for cover.

Not so much.

In the photo below, Hillary heroically strangles a Bosnian sniper who was about to play checkers with Chelsea. Seriously, read the caption, which quotes Hillary’s description of the scene, then check out the photo of the actual scene.


Hm. I suppose that little girl’s face could be booby trapped.

UPDATE: Here’s the video, via Sullivan

And, I’m sorry, if dodging bullets is a major qualification for being president, there are lots of folks in the ‘hood more qualified to be president than Hillary.

RSS icon Comments


Little girls, in my mind (and youth pastors) are ALWAYS dangerous.

Posted by catnextdoor | March 22, 2008 9:47 AM

Well, that photo could be from a different occassion than what Hillary was referring to.

Posted by raindrop | March 22, 2008 9:48 AM

Dan Savage October 2002

"War may be bad for children and other living things, but there are times when peace is worse for children and other living things, and this is one of those times. Saying no to war in Iraq means saying yes to the continued oppression of the Iraqi people."

Posted by Oh Danny Boy the pipes the pipes are calling | March 22, 2008 9:49 AM

Hey Mr. Journalist,
Did you consider asking the Clinton campaign to comment on this apparent contradiction before letting yourself be a conduit for the Republican Smear Machine?

Posted by Brendan | March 22, 2008 9:56 AM

Jedi Master Arca Jeth

Age: Unknown

Homeworld: Arkania

Died: 3,997 BBY

Incident: After helping Onderon to obtain peace, Arca was slain at the Conclave on Deneba by a Krath war droid.

Posted by DW | March 22, 2008 10:04 AM

who took the photo? these 'official' type photos almost always come with the photographers name and organization, not just some descriptioni of where it was taken.

Posted by JC | March 22, 2008 10:14 AM

How is it this woman hasn't lost, yet?

Posted by Max Bell | March 22, 2008 10:22 AM

@5 hilarious!

Here's some more for your amusement:

Staff Sgt. Michael D. Elledge

Hometown: Brownsburg, Indiana, U.S.

Age: 41 years old

Died: March 17, 2008 in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Unit: Army, 1st Battalion, 68th Armor Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Carson, Colo.

Incident: Killed when his vehicle encountered a makeshift bomb during combat operations in Baghdad.

Staff Sgt. Juantrea T. Bradley

Hometown: Greenville, North Carolina, U.S.

Age: 28 years old

Died: March 12, 2008 in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Unit: Army, 7th Special Troops Battalion, 7th Sustainment Brigade, 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry), Fort Eustis, Va.

Incident: Killed when his vehicle was hit by indirect fire in Tallil.

Spec. Donald A. Burkett

Hometown: Comanche, Texas, U.S.

Age: 24 years old

Died: March 10, 2008 in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Unit: Army, 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, Fort Hood, Tex.

Incident: Killed when his vehicle encountered a makeshift bomb in Balad Ruz.

Spec. Kevin S. Mowl

Hometown: Pittsford, New York, U.S.

Age: 22 years old

Died: February 25, 2008 in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Unit: Army, 2nd Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Lewis Wash.

Incident: Died Feb. 25 at the National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, Md., of wounds suffered in Baghdad, on Aug. 2, 2007, when the vehicle he was in encountered an a makeshift bomb.

Posted by ... | March 22, 2008 10:29 AM

I wouldn't call that a photo of a "greeting ceremony". Is there more information on this photo?

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of calling Hillary a liar just from this photo alone.

Posted by me | March 22, 2008 10:30 AM

Dan, Those of us that were protesting against the war and hated Hillary's vote at the time and somehow never heard about Obama's speech may not need to hate her in the way you feel necessary. Being so wrong on something so evil must be hard to live with. Hillary clearly didn't do the correct thing but her support of the war did't quite reach your level.

Barrack looks to be melba for the general and he really should either accept FL and MI as is or do everything for a revote. He should find a way negotiate a veep role with Gore so that the Dems can win.

Even if she lied about the 1996 situation it is hardly as significant as Obama's money man being on trial right now. Obama letting this crook be part of his housing purchase will make another great video for October.

And for all those that charge that the Clintons will do anything - they could have run with the Wright stuff months ago - or perhaps you think that's what Hillary is saying to the little girl.

Posted by McG | March 22, 2008 10:37 AM
Hillary clearly didn't do the correct thing but her support of the war did't quite reach your level.

Of course. Actually arguing passionately in favor of war on the Senate floor, and voting for the war, and voting against amendments requiring further diplomacy efforts first, and defending these votes over and over again on national television, simply pales in comparison to writing a single editorial in an local alternative newsweekly.

Truly, our senators' power is dwarfed by that of our nation's sex advice columnists.

Posted by tsm | March 22, 2008 10:49 AM

Please keep blinders on. There is nothing to see here. Sinbad was lying about the trip and the Washington Post faked this photo.

Posted by Mike in Iowa | March 22, 2008 10:54 AM

McG was allegedly against the war and didn't hear about the African American running for the Senate from Illinois who was strongly speaking out against it? Not likely. Also, you can give up on the plan to add two more primaries to give Hills more chances to catch up. It's not going to happen. Obama's played by the rules the entire contest and suggesting that he should now be fighting for the rules to be changed mid-game is both naive and absurd. Hillary has lost, despite the on-going hissy-fits of her supporters. And the longer she stays in, the more her real character will become apparent as more of her outright lies come to light.

Posted by Mike in Iowa | March 22, 2008 11:05 AM


can we call her a liar for this?:

"I have been a critic of NAFTA from the very beginning."

or should someone throw a big pile of steaming shame on me?

and @10 read @11.

Posted by cochise. | March 22, 2008 11:06 AM

SO ... a moment of good bullet free space - who knows in a war zone what happened an hour before or an hour after ... this is so thin and so silly.

She was THERE, it was a war zone, and WHERE were other American leaders that week? How many and who else in the war zone aside from Lady One Hillary?

If Hillary haters could see a jar of her urine, they would say it is too yellow, or, not yellow enough ... god, what shit spewers you all have become.

Posted by Adam | March 22, 2008 11:06 AM


if that jar of yellow urine said it was blue, sure i would be pissed. i FUCKING HATE LYING URINE!

i also hate shit that says it doesn't stink. i have yet to meet a piece of shit that doesn't.

(lol bullet free space!)

Posted by cochise. | March 22, 2008 11:14 AM

So, it's a dangerous, dangerous war zone, snipers everywhere and the Clintons think it is a good idea to have their daughter go along? Talk about every child deserves a mother and father.

Posted by In MN | March 22, 2008 11:19 AM

Hey all calm the fuck down.

Pols exaggerate. Duh.

Here are some other distortions:

--I wasn't in the pew when he said that weird, nasty stuff.

--There was no deal with Rezko, he just HAPPENED to call me up and tour the house and help me buy it.

--the general notion I was raised by s single, struggling mom. Sure. Then he went to an elite prep school an elite college in CA then to Columbia then to HArvard fucking LAw school.

--I left the big time money track to be a community organizer.

Well, give him credit for 3 years. Then off to harvard, then bein' a lawyer then marrying someone with a high pwoered job and pretty soon pulling down millions in book advances.

--the whole impressionistic thing that his community based organizing skills and remarkable persona lead to "change".

Here are the changes folks have identified from his years as a community organizer:

here are the changes he brought about by giving one speech against the Iraq war:

here are the changes he brought about as a state legislator and us senator: a few good things passed like many of them.

here is the big new race proposal resulting from his speech:

here is the amount of turth in the claim he will be so loved by Rs and Is this will be a sweeping change election not a nail biter:

Now @13:

"McG was allegedly against the war and didn't hear about the African American running for the Senate from Illinois who was strongly speaking out against it? Not likely."

Bullshit, sir. No one heard about it. Why?

Because Obama didn't actually then go on to create an anti war movement. He didn't create an antiwar organization. He didn't do ANYTHING like Hoffman or Kerrey did in the 1960s. He didn't write a book about the war. He hasn't led and he hasn't caused any CHANGE on the war. He gave a speech. Great, that's good, but the bar is pretty low if that qualifies you to claim you are leading a whole new policits when in the years since the speech he really didn't cause any war opposition to grow or develop and didn't really do a damn thing.

" Also, you can give up on the plan to add two more primaries to give Hills more chances to catch up."

Right, the Obama political machine is shutting down voting rights for a few million people. Fuck 'em, see the Obamatons gloat and swagger.

" It's not going to happen."

Hey dimwit, pointing out things like a photo or a claim may be wrong SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN AS A HERETICAL CLAIM THAT HRC IS GOOD OR HRC WILL WIN.

unless you are running an Obama religion, orf course.

"Obama's played by the rules the entire contest"


he's like all ther others. he supports the rules when they are unfair and favor him as in FL and MI. He's against the rules when they disfavor him (the reason superdelegates exist is to change the result from the pledged delegates). His campaign said what he said on NAFTA couldn't be bleieved and what he said on withdrawing from IRaw couldn't be believed.

"suggesting that he should now be fighting for the rules to be changed mid-game"

um, he is fighting for the rules to be changed by saying the superdelegates shouldnt' do their job which is to independently evaluate and not blindly follow the pledged delegated result

"is both naive and absurd. Hillary has lost, despite the on-going hissy-fits of her supporters."

hey don't you read? many hrc supporters have said for long time obama will win. This doens't mean:

incorrect posts whould be unchallenged
--Obama is a saint above criticism and ocmment
--there aren't thing he ought to do differently

"And the longer she stays in, the more her real character will become apparent as more of her outright lies come to light"

Unity, unity, rah rah rah. We are Obamatons, we do not demonize. We first understand before we condemn. Unity, unity, rah rah rah. Don't you dare even QUESTION any anti HRC post or else YOU ARE IN LEAGUE WITH THE SHE DEVIL.

Unity, hope, unity, hope, we are a new and different kind of poltics, don't seat those FL and MI delegates, don't let FL and MI voters have a voice, we are a new and kinder and inclusive new unity politics, rah rah rah, do not QUESTION THE ONE ALMIGIHT OBAMA.

Praise O!!

Posted by unPC | March 22, 2008 11:26 AM

her 20 minutes on the ground in tuzla, bosnia sure sound tramatic!!! (thanks calendar!)

8:55 AM Arrival

-Ambassador John Menzies
-President Ganic
-General Nash
-Admiral Smith
-8 year old Bosnian Girl
-7th Grade Class adopted by Germany

-Ambassador Menzies intros HRC to greeters
-8 year-old Bosnian Girl reads a poem to HRC
-HRC greets 7th grade class

9:15AM Depart Airport EN route Headquarters

all of this in the bullet free zone, right next to the protest free zone.

Posted by cochise. | March 22, 2008 11:31 AM


And the longer she stays in, the more her real character will become apparent as more of her outright lies come to light.
And that is why I do not want this to be over. The longer Hillary drags this out, the more clearly we see the choice we have to make about what kind of Democratic party, and likely governing party for years to come, we will have.

Posted by elenchos | March 22, 2008 11:40 AM

Can anyone help UnPC get back on their Lithium?

Posted by Scott Dow | March 22, 2008 11:48 AM

We've tried, @21, we've tried.

Posted by tsm | March 22, 2008 11:51 AM

For those who question the photo, you can watch the video:

Posted by jj | March 22, 2008 11:59 AM

Did any of you actualy go check out The Washington Post's blog on this issue? From a reporter with experience in Bosnia at the time, who writes an extremely intelligent and succinct account of this situation?

Or did you decide to just have a visceral reaction to what Dan wrote because you're pissed about ONE friggin' article he wrote years ago and has since apologized for and pointed out over and over that he was wrong.I can only hope that at some point in my life I am a paragon for the community and as perfect as you. Fuckwads.

Read the WaPo blog, damn it:

Posted by Sam | March 22, 2008 12:07 PM

Let me just give y'all the summation from WaPo:

The Pinocchio Test

Clinton's tale of landing at Tuzla airport "under sniper fire" and then running for cover is simply not credible. Photographs and video of the arrival ceremony, combined with contemporaneous news reports, tell a very different story. Four Pinocchios.

Posted by Sam | March 22, 2008 12:14 PM

Why is Hillary Clinton still getting mentioned in print at this point?

Posted by bluh? | March 22, 2008 12:16 PM

TSM please provide Hillary language as glowing about going to war as Dan's.

Mike please provide the news coverage of Obama's anti war efforts in 2002. When did he start his campaign? Please provide some anti-war work he did otehr than the speech. Mike you are such a tool. He was a fucking state senator that hadn't emerged at the 2004 convention in 2002. He was not a major anti war leader.

On purpose or by misstake Hillary has not recounted the events of 3-25-96 correctly but apparently there was some danger however when Obama forgot that he walked his new house with Rezko in 2005 that was not an issue for fact checker, see below:

Lissa Muscatine, who served as Hilary Clinton's chief speechwriter in 1996 and accompanied her on the Bosnia trip, feels that I have failed to provide a full picture of what took place. She gave me her "vivid recollections" of the arrival in Tuzla, which I quote below:

I was on the plane with then First Lady Hillary Clinton for the trip from Germany into Bosnia in 1996. We were put on a C17-- a plane capable of steep ascents and descents -- precisely because we were flying into what was considered a combat zone. We were issued flak jackets for the final leg because of possible sniper fire near Tuzla. As an additional precaution, the First Lady and Chelsea were moved to the armored cockpit for the descent into Tuzla. We were told that a welcoming ceremony on the tarmac might be canceled because of sniper fire in the hills surrounding the air strip. From Tuzla, Hillary flew to two outposts in Bosnia with gunships escorting her helicopter.
UPDATE Saturday 8:45 a.m.

Gen. Nash says that I misquoted him in saying he was unaware of any "security threat" to the First Lady. While he was unaware of any "sniper threat," he now tells me there were a couple of "security concerns" that day, which he found out about after returning to his headquarters after greeting Clinton at the airport. There was a "non-specific report" of a possible truck bomb in the area. The military also had information that "some of the communications associated with the First Lady's visit were being monitored."

"In both cases, we took appropriate security action," said Nash, adding that Clinton's visit was not disrupted.

Anybody else with first-hand memories of Clinton's Tuzla trip, please send them along.

The great blogger goes fishing.

Posted by McG | March 22, 2008 12:40 PM

How dare you speak ill of Hillary! She needs to win the Dem nom so that we can skate to the WH in Nov.

Posted by McCain/Crist '08! | March 22, 2008 1:28 PM

McG, you've already made it previously clear that you argue here as a partisan, and not in good faith. I'm not going to do the two minutes' worth of Googling required to bring up Hillary's quotes about Saddam's arsenal and the threat he presented for you. And all of it is still moot relative to the most significant statement she made on the matter: her "Aye" vote, the impact of which exceeded anything Dan could ever have accomplished.

Clinton is your candidate. Own that shit.

Posted by tsm | March 22, 2008 1:52 PM


Is it possible to speak in support of Obama and not be an Obamaton, to not have suspended critical thought and know he is not perfect, but still prefer him to Hillary, without being automatically labelled a mindless follower?

Just askin.

Posted by Andy Niable | March 22, 2008 3:04 PM

Thanks for picking this up Dan, this would be campaign-ending stuff for Obama or McCain, because it is a provable lie she has repeated more than once now with lip-curling contempt at anyone who has questioned her since. So let this be the campaign ender for Hillary. It is about time.

Posted by louise van hine | March 22, 2008 4:09 PM

Fuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhck is this embarrassing. I've got no smart ass partisan comeback on this one, gang.

Posted by Big Sven | March 22, 2008 4:40 PM

Yes. Of course. I was reacting to someone bitching at someone who simply made some good points, and I believe there are a bunch of Obama supporters who just like to wave pom poms and who midlessly support Obama to the pont where they are beyond rational or interesting dialogue and they remind me basically of how the Catholic Church views itself and any critics.
They don't want to hear anything not laudatory about OBama, and if anyone says anything not laudatory about Obama they attack and react and do not engage or discuss. When I say "Obamatons" I specifically refer to the mindless and not the thoughtful supporters of Sen. Obama.


(Interesting info for critical minds; the question may come up what the hell is happening to the poll nos. and what can be done about it and does it impact electability in the fall; one can thoughtfully conclude yes, or no, of course; mindless supporters who wish to stamp out heresy any time it rears its devilish head will instead take a look and flame away in various attempts to deny, discredit or dismiss this piece of poll info. OR, the messenger providing the link. Oh and btw critical minds will realize that it's just one piece of info and no one poll means anything, etc., so the critical and thoughtful Obama supporters wouldn't write back "hey that's one poll, here's another one showing Obama is ahead you rat!" but the mindless ones would, seemingly clueless that they have oft posted a single poll rather than an array of polls, etc.)

Posted by unPC | March 22, 2008 4:49 PM

I've got to take sides with McG and unPC here.

So Hillary's willing to lie--about her Bosnia trip, about her past support for NAFTA.

So Hillary's willing to cheat and try to get the Michigan and Florida votes to count.

So Hillary's willing to steal the nomination with fewer pledged delegates and fewer popular votes when all is said and done.

Well, it's about time we had a Democrat who was willing to lie, cheat, and steal--not to mention engage in race-baiting, gender-baiting, warmongering, and lobbyist cozying--so as to get elected president.

The history books are written by the winners, and I'm just grateful we finally have a Democrat with the balls to out-Republican the Republicans for a change. Obama can call Hillary "Bush-Cheney lite," but she's more like "Bush-Cheney on steroids," and that's why we love her.

Posted by cressona | March 22, 2008 5:15 PM

TSM you are a shit, own it.

Dan was a fucking cheerleader for the war - Hillary was stupid to support the crap that Kerry, Edwards and the rest of them did. Obama has voted FOR every funding of the war bill. Obama when actually running for a federal office said he probably would have voted for the authorization of the war. Many stupid democrats in office were afraid to oppose fighting the terrorists - but Dan without that to lose was a cheerleader.

I prefer Obama but think he will have his ass handed to him. I would like to see Gore drafted and have him pick Obama - with one condition - he fire his insane blindered supporters.

Posted by McG | March 22, 2008 5:20 PM

McG @27:

TSM please provide Hillary language as glowing about going to war as Dan's.

Here's what's fascinating to me about Dan Savage's support for the Iraq adventure--and the same can be Dan's buddy Andrew Sullivan. It smacked of a kind of gung-ho, macho, frat-boy, Rudyard Kipling imperialism. That is, it was shallow, it was moronic, but at least it was sincere.

On the other hand, Hillary's support was grounded in cold political calculation. That is, as far as any of us non-mind-readers can divine, Hillary actually knew better.

Of course, if 4,000 American lives, $600 billion, and untold thousands of Iraqi lives is the price that must be paid to get a Democrat back in the White House, then who are we to second-guess Hillary's political wisdom?

Posted by cressona | March 22, 2008 5:34 PM

Gads... you long commenter's bore the fuck out of me.

Keep it short and sweet y'all. Then people will actually read it. That's 7th Grade lit for you.

Posted by catnextdoor | March 22, 2008 6:26 PM


That is, as far as any of us non-mind-readers can divine, Hillary actually knew better.

Please provide evidence- any evidence at all- that Clinton knew that Hussein didn't have WMD. Not that she *should* have known, 'cause that's not what you said. Thanks.

Posted by Big Sven | March 22, 2008 6:35 PM

Major Kendra Shaw

Hometown: Caprica Colony

Age: 28, though with the ass of a 19 year old.

Died: Nov 24, 2007

Unit: XO, Battlestar Pegasus

Incident: Died on board an archaic Cylon Guardian Basestar when she manually detonated a thermonuclear warhead in an effort to stop the First Hybrid from his ongoing human mutation experiments. The First Hybrid and Basestar were supposedly destroyed as well. Supposedly. It should also be noted that Major Shaw was incredibly hot, in an Angelina Jolie-light sort of way.

Posted by Frank Sinatra's Reanimated Corpse | March 22, 2008 6:50 PM

Big Sven @38--listen, I actually agree with you.

I believe the United States has an obligation to invade any non-allied nation that we suspect may have, or be developing, WMDs. I mean, who wouldn't be convinced by the uranium-Niger story or the Mohamed Atta in Prague story? In any event, you can never prove a negative, so best to just err on the side of caution. When in doubt, invade.

This is why I'm glad Hillary voted for that legislation equating Iran's Revolutionary Guard with a terrorist organization. That's not to say we should be invading Iran just yet, but hey, if those al Qaeda folks in Afghanistan and Pakistan hit us again, we'd be remiss not to invade Iran.

Unlike that wuss Barack Obama or that other wuss Al Gore, Hillary in 2002 showed her mature and tough understanding of national security and foreign affairs by exercising a simple principle: to eliminate the threat of nuclear attack by ridding the world of all hostile regimes, whether or not they have nuclear weapons. Because if they don't have nukes now, there's not saying they won't in the future.

Posted by cressona | March 22, 2008 6:53 PM

Cress, why are you changing the subject and avoiding my question? You said HRC knew better, I'm asking you what she knew. Go ahead, enlighten me. Here's a chance for you to score a point for Obama. Or would you rather just move on to some other unverifiable, indefensible Obama campaign meme?

But really, none of this matters. Your candidate hangs out with terrorists. When the MSM spools up with this one, it's going to make the Wright thing look like a grade school t-ball match.

You clearly don't think the War on Terrorism is real. But the funny thing is- the American people do.

Posted by Big Sven | March 22, 2008 10:28 PM

My Mom has come down to the basement and caught me on Slog. I promised her I wouldn't ever return to this blog and I did and now Mom has caught me. I have to admit to you that I am only 14 years old.

Posted by Big Sven | March 22, 2008 11:56 PM

Whoever spoofed my name @42 is obviously too ignorant of the SLOG to realize that many, many people have met me at SLOG night and know exactly how old I am.

Nice job, you fucking coward. The only other time anyone spoofed me on the SLOG was during another thread that involved the war. Are you perhaps the same fucktard who keeps nagging Dan about the war? That douchebag spoofs lots of people.

How much courage must you have in your convictions if you have to post anonymously and by impersonating others? At least the well known trolls pick a handle and stick with it, you pathetic loser.

Posted by Big Sven | March 23, 2008 1:43 AM

#18, stop being disingenuous for once.

"the Obama political machine is shutting down voting rights for a few million people"

Not taking action is the new taking action. Christ, at least learn how to use passive verbs in order to to avoid revealing that you're full of shit.

"he is fighting for the rules to be changed by saying the superdelegates shouldnt' do their job"

Cite the rule being changed, please. The only "rule" I know is that superdelegates get to vote however the fuck they want to, and anyone is free to convince them how they should vote. If you can't tell the difference between actual party rules, and things that you decide are "rules" for the purposes of making up a double standard, I don't even know why I'm replying to this.

Posted by w7ngman | March 23, 2008 1:47 AM


Right. Obama hangs with terrorists and Hillary gives great big bear hugs to women who say Jews are poisoning Arab children.

Posted by keshmeshi | March 23, 2008 2:16 AM


I realize it's hard for you to accept that anyone who has examined issues could possibly disagree with you but many, many of us do. And many of us, I'm sure, with far greater brain capacity than you. So go fuck yourself already.

Posted by Mike in Iowa | March 23, 2008 8:24 AM

Mikey - After that rejoinder you'll probably need a day to recharge that big brain of yours, so we won't expect that information on what Obama did to fight the war beyond the one speech. No campaign literature with that anti-war theme. No op-eds. Only maybe his record of pro war funding votes.

'Let us assume a bold thrust and go forward together. Let us carry the fight against ignorance to the four corners of the earth, because it is a fight that concerns us all.'

New Obama speech? Nope, Peter Sellers parody speech from the dreaded 60s.

Posted by McG | March 23, 2008 9:01 AM

One of the things I know about a lotta gay white men, is that they are just as racist as any whites can be, but they hunger for the white privileges they're missing out on, by being gay.

That's why they would rather vote for a lying warmonger who wants DOMA, than a black guy who is against the war and does not want DOMA.

I hope everyone gets what they deserve.

Posted by Megs | March 23, 2008 9:14 AM

#48 - Megs -

With all due respect, honey, gay men know a pussy when they spot one.

Nothing to do with race.

Hillary is one tough lady and it is going to require one to beat War Machine McCain and get things back on track. Course, we are not only stupid but racist. Course.

The diff. between Obama and Hillary on most issues is a hair. A cunt hair to be exact.

Posted by Jack in Detroit | March 23, 2008 9:36 AM

Big Sven @41:

Cress, why are you changing the subject and avoiding my question? You said HRC knew better, I'm asking you what she knew. Go ahead, enlighten me.

Big Sven, I'm in total agreement with you.

Al Gore and Barack Obama may look remarkably wise and even prescient now for having opposed the Iraq invasion in 2002 for reasons that had nothing to do with pacifism, but they weren't exposed to the same intelligence information Hillary was. All of us Monday morning quarterbacks can look back now and say the decision to preemptively invade a sovereign nation in a hornet's nest of a region was patently foolish and misguided, but were any of us getting briefed about the National Intelligence Estimate like Hillary was?

For that matter, we can look back and say that Alan Greenspan and the Bush administration were patently foolish for establishing the fiscal policies that led to the mortgage meltdown and a possible global financial crisis. But were any of us exposed to the intelligence they were exposed to at the time?

Or we can look back and say that Napoleon was patently foolish for invading Russia. But were any of us exposed to the intelligence he was exposed to at the time?

In any event, I don't think any of us have a right to question the national security decisions of American leaders who have served in a combat zone. John McCain served in a combat zone (Vietnam). Hillary Clinton not only served in a combat zone (Bosnia), but she was brave enough to bring Sinbad and her teenage daughter to serve with her. All Barack Obama has is some speech he gave.

Posted by cressona | March 23, 2008 9:38 AM

Jack in Detroit @49:

With all due respect, honey, gay men know a pussy when they spot one.

Nothing to do with race.

Hillary is one tough lady and it is going to require one to beat War Machine McCain and get things back on track.

Jack's right. Obama can rail all he wants to against the scourge of homophobia, but will he be tough enough throw the gay community under the proverbial bus at the first moment it's politically expedient to do so? I don't think so. But it's obvious Hillary is tough enough.

Besides, until this nation is willing to elect a gay president, an aging diva (and one who makes Joan Crawford seem like an ingenue in comparison) is the next best thing. I look forward to the day when Perez Hilton will refer to Hillary as this nation's first gay president.

Posted by cressona | March 23, 2008 10:00 AM

@43 Who you calling a fucking coward. Next Saturday Big Sven, it's you and me at high noon in front of the Stranger offices and we're going to the mat. That's right dickhead we're having an asshole eating contest to see who is the bigger man. (War supporting war dodging slog type of course) I'll even let you go first.

Posted by Big Sven+5-7=little Sven | March 23, 2008 10:15 AM


Now I have to defend myself from Miss Thing, named Cressona. Who are you?

What is next on marriage is any ones guess. But back then, DOMA was the option to STOP a formal and real Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage forever. Or at last a generation or two, or three.

You all are not well informed. Hillary has been to more pride events than one could count, spoken dozens of times at ALL gay events and on down the list. She will throw no one under the so called bus.

You need a little depth, honey. And those of us who have escaped the Black Church are not going back via Mister B. Obama.

You have forgotten accusation that Hillary is Lesbian, that Bill had boyfriends - the far right and you sound a lot the same. By the way, the Clinton White House was an open door to Gay and Lesbian folks. And dozens of high level appointments to our community. There were many, many firsts.

I think we disagree, what an exciting political year... and Obama is a pussy. Those canny old guys that run DC will roll him.

Posted by Jack in Detroit | March 23, 2008 10:20 AM

Cressona, congrats. You are the fist person in over a year of this campaign to call Hillary a Diva.

She is many things, Diva, for sure NOT.

Posted by Andy | March 23, 2008 10:27 AM

Cressona dear I agree with you. Obama not knowing what his pastor's points of view were and are, is much more believable than Hillary getting what happened in Bosnia in 1996 wrong. And whether or not there were snipers will be so much more important to swing voters than if Obama didn't openly object to Wright saying god damn America.

I agree that we should just get past,that is turn the page, on all issues from the 60s.

Just Do It - er I mean Yes We Can

Posted by McG | March 23, 2008 11:15 AM

@52: oh my god- Are you calling me out? How old are you?!? I'll pass on the felonious battery charges, thanks. But please- come to SLOG night next time, if you really want to show that you're not some anonymous coward who hides behind spoofed handles.

Posted by Big Sven | March 23, 2008 11:20 AM

Sounds like Big Seven is not cool with an ass eating contest - would make such a great video - after all this is not the Tabu Blog, now is it ...

Posted by Andy | March 23, 2008 11:46 AM

@52: oh my god- Are you calling me out? How old are you?!? I'll pass on the felonious battery charges, thanks. But please- come to SLOG night next time, if you really want to show that you're not some anonymous coward who hides behind spoofed handles.

Posted by Big Sven | March 23, 2008 11:57 AM

Sorry for the double post. Damned phone browser.

Cress@51: there are 2 kinds of people on the SLOG: Writers and Lemurs. Writers engage each other on the subjects of the day, like how to get done w/ the war, or who should be the Dem nominee. Lemurs rattle the cages & fling their shit everywhere.

Elenchos, Fnarf, Gomez, Poe, Monique, and (even though I detest him) Will in Seattle are Writers. Reality Check, McCain/Crist'08, and Mr. Iraq War Spoofer- these are Lemurs.

I always thought you were a Writer, but I'm starting to have my doubts. *You* said that Clinton "knew better." *I* asked, not unreasonably I think, "how so?" And it's been lemur shit from you ever since.

So decide. If you want to be a Lemur, then it's just one less person I have to worry about taking seriously.

Posted by Big Sven | March 23, 2008 12:24 PM

Y'know, I've got to agree with Big Sven @59 about the distinction between writers and shit-flingers. I used to think Frank Rich of The New York Times was a writer, but now I'm beginning to think he belongs in the other camp.

Here he goes in his column today regurgitating that whole, tired-old meme about how Hillary knew better:

Instead Mrs. Clinton darkened that cloud by claiming that she was fooled by the prewar intelligence that didnít dupe nearly half her Democratic Senate colleagues, including Bob Graham, Teddy Kennedy and Carl Levin. Even worse, she repeatedly pretends that she didnít know President Bush would regard a bill titled ďAuthorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002Ē as an authorization to go to war. No one believes this spin for the simple reason that no one believes Mrs. Clinton is an idiot. Her patently bogus explanations for her vote have in the end done far more damage to her credibility than the vote itself.

Frank Rich, shame on you. Don't you have anything better to do than dredge up the ancient history that is Hillary Clinton's 35 years of experience?

Posted by cressona | March 23, 2008 12:46 PM

Big Sven - I think you need to start a Salon, very exclusive guest list, you and your all white educated liberal straight guy peers.

The so called writers you mention are all so predictable - after reading here for a while, one could write their replies. Would that make me a writer?

Cliques are so dreary. So old high school. So ... past party politic.

Posted by Mary | March 23, 2008 1:53 PM

Jay Z for prez!

I hear he used to be a hustla. And these days he definitely knows how to run an empire.

Posted by John | March 23, 2008 2:01 PM

son, there are two type of people in this world: cowboys and indians. see, the cowboys are the good guys. and the indians, see, all they do is fling shit. it's that simple. do you want shit on you son? can you handle the shit? no? then KILL THE INDIANS!

(really, i think poe would take offense to you calling him a writer instead of a shit flinger...i would)

Posted by cochise. | March 23, 2008 2:22 PM

Mary@61- Poe and Monique will be very, very surprised to hear that they are straight guys.

Cress- ahhh. Your argument is that Clinton knew beter because she should have known better. Got it. 20/20 hindsight is so fucking awesome!

And it's not 35 years experience. It's two successful national campaigns, as compared to Alan Fucking Keyes. Giuliani/Lazio outspent Clinton 2 to 1 and Keyes 1000 to 1 (60M$ vs 50k$). 12 years in the State Legislature doesn't count for shit in a Presidential election. And please, please bring up Lincoln- it just makes you look like a bigger fanatic...

Posted by Big Sven | March 23, 2008 2:29 PM

Just want to point out- 'cause let's face it, Obama is probably going to be our nominee this fall- that this "America is an evil hegemon that should just shower Bin Laden in kisses" stuff is going to go over sooooo great in the fall! Defeatism is the new black!

Siding with the Palestinians? Another proven winner.

Posted by Big Sven | March 23, 2008 2:43 PM

Except, of course, that neither of those sentiments are even remotely close to Obama's stated beliefs, Sven, and you'd probably be forced to admit as much. But yes, you're right - taking the smallest of scraps as grounds for attributing horrible sentiments to a candidate that he/she never held in any way is likely going to be a Republican tactic in 2008 - as it always is and will be, every election, no matter who the candidate is.

What you think you're accomplishing (other than throwing a satisfying tantrum) by pointing out that they will indeed attempt to bind these memes to Obama is beyond me, though.

Posted by tsm | March 23, 2008 3:29 PM


You're right. I should have been more clear. I was speaking of peacenik and anti-Israeli attitudes on the SLOG. Obama himself is more centrist, and thank you for pointing that out.

Though I wish Obama wasn't friends with Bill Ayers. Terrorists are scum, and I think most Americans think so, too. I think this is going to hurt us in the fall.

Posted by Big Sven | March 23, 2008 3:46 PM

@59 BIG sven! You have declared me a regular slogger. I am so proud. Cressona @60--you are exquisite! Now that I am a real slogger and by implication a dan-dittohead I will do my part to evangelize the words of Dan to the world. But first a brief response to those who feel it is time to move on from the recriminations of those who, OOPs, supported the war.

There are some war supporter pundits over at Huffington Post making that same oops we made a mistake it's time to move on argument. But Gee, what about the maimed young soldiers in their twenties with missing limbs and burned off faces and sixty years left to live. Why don't you tell them oops Dan and George and Dick and Rummy just made a mistake it's time to move on. And how about the families of the killed. Especially the children who have to grow up without one of their parents. Hey-it's time to move on. Dan's a war monger and I think his words deserve wide exposure. Dan had a choice to make leading up to the war. He could be quiet. He could oppose it. He could support it knowing that carnage would follow. He chose to support carnage and destruction even going so far as to quote Bush and Cheney favorably, ridicule liberal aniti-war activists, and in the most jingoistic manner support the invasion-not only of Iraq but any country in the middle east that didn't do what the US told them to do.

Posted by Iraq war spoofer | March 23, 2008 4:32 PM

Petty Officer 1st Class Luis A. Souffront

Hometown: Miami, Florida, U.S.

Age: 25 years old

Died: February 7, 2008 in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Unit: Navy, East Coast-based SEAL team

Incident: Killed by a makeshift bomb while serving in combat operations in Iraq.

Posted by Iraq war spoofer | March 23, 2008 4:36 PM

"Day of Violence in Iraq claims at least 57 lives."

Posted by Iraq war spoofer | March 23, 2008 4:38 PM

And, oh yeah! There are the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died and the two or three million who have been displaced from their homes-what about them. Just tell 'em opps we made a mistake it's time to move on.

Posted by Iraq war spoofer | March 23, 2008 4:40 PM

And the obese woman who accidentally killed that child and that Dan and you sloggers found so entertaining yesterday.(My goodness waht wits you folks are) I wonder how she feels today. I wonder how the parents of that child feel today. Hey, who gives a fuck right? This is Slog we have been entertained and a bit amused-it's time to move on.

Posted by Iraq war spoofer | March 23, 2008 4:43 PM

@60 Cressona

The NY Times Magazine has a great piece about Hillary's choice to support the war and her process of arriving at that decision.

Hillary's War

Posted by Iraq war spoofer | March 23, 2008 4:49 PM

Spoofer @73, thanks for the link, but you know, I wish you all would just lighten up on Hillary for one moment. It's not like any of us has the psychic power to predict the future. Sure, Obama and Gore came up with a couple of lucky guesses in 2002 about how the whole Iraq thing would turn out. But a stopped clock is right twice a day too.

For that matter, I wish people would quit blaming Bill for the whole impeachment thing. It's not like anyone had the psychic power in 1997 or so to predict that an extramarital affair with an intern might be uncovered and become fodder for his political opponents.

P.S. If any of you wise-ass, America-damning Hillary haters point out the breaking news that the U.S. war dead has reached the 4,000 mark, I'm going to personally come over and kick your ass.

Posted by cressona | March 23, 2008 8:04 PM

Speaking as a foreigner, I'll say this. I am dead sick of the US Republicans, but your next election will be a close run thing, and while I am quite convinced that while some Republicans might be convinced to vote for a woman, significantly less of them would ever vote for a black man, no matter what they say publicly.

Bluntly, I think Obama is the Democratic party's very own Ralph Nader and as such, is tacitly supported by the Republicans and by the right wing media. I am starting to think about what "President McCain" will behave like. No joke.

Posted by Alex | March 23, 2008 10:03 PM

It's not that she lies.

It's just that she does it so easily, and about things that really aren't that important.

That said, she'd be a way better President then 100 Years War McCain ever would, even if not as good as Sen Obama will be.

Posted by Will in Seattle | March 23, 2008 10:21 PM

Will @76,
By a curious coincidence, that's exactly what the mainstream press corps said 3,000 times a day about your beloved Al Gore throughout the 2000 election. You (and Dan, Eli, and all the other "Draft Gore!" Democrats) probably believed it then, too.

This is merely by way of observing that Obama partisans shouldn't be so eager to accept press corps scripts (transferred wholesale from one target to the next) as long as they're aimed against HRC -- it won't put you in a good position when they do the same sort of thing to Obama in the general.

These people are not your friends. And that goes 1,000 times over for Andrew fucking Sullivan.

Posted by David | March 24, 2008 11:54 AM

Jeezus Dan. You sure have gotten cranky in your old age. As someone who used to call you a fan, I think its time to hang it up. Your writing now just sounds like a bitter old queen stuck in a rut. Are you saying that Bosnia was a walk in the park? Of course the First Lady had extra protection. No one thinks she was crawling around in foxholes for christs sake. These kind of page-view-baiting posts about non-issues are what is making this presidential race coverage so disgusting and despicable.

Posted by Midge | March 24, 2008 11:56 AM

So if your going into a Hot LZ... why would you have your kid with you? Child endangerment maybe?

Her first words were... "I remember..." clearly indicating she is a major liar or just wacky!

Posted by Tom Roberts | March 27, 2008 7:12 AM

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