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Monday, January 28, 2008

Meanwhile, Somewhere in America

posted by on January 28 at 14:59 PM

People are selling, and presumably buying, absolute truckloads of sexist anti-Hillary garbage. Broadsheet has a roundup of their favorites, including t-shirts that proclaim “No Penis, No Problems,” “I Wish Hillary Had Married OJ,” “Want to See Hillary Run? Throw Rocks at Her!” and this:


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As bad as I think that Hillary is, that's just inexcusable.

Posted by bma | January 28, 2008 2:56 PM

Nobody ever credited right-wingers with ... well, anything good at all really.

Posted by AMB | January 28, 2008 2:59 PM

Ah, the last refuge of desperate Clintonistas--rallying around outrage at sexist neanderthals. Nuthin' like trying to re-create that Sister Soulja moment from '92.

Where'd you hear about this one, Erica? A Howard Wolfson press release?

Posted by cressona | January 28, 2008 3:01 PM

I HATE Hillary and naturally will vote for a third party if she gets the nomination (I studied her record and just do not want that in the White House, and I disapprove of any form of dynatic rule) But this is over the top. However I did kinda laugh at the Hillary Meal Deal.

Posted by Cato the Younger Younger | January 28, 2008 3:02 PM

This is actually semi-somewhat surprising. Right wing humor on HRC that doesn't mention Bill or Monica.

Posted by Mr. Poe | January 28, 2008 3:03 PM

Isn't "no penis, no problems" actually Pro-Hillary?

Posted by Ryan | January 28, 2008 3:05 PM


Clintopomorphic fried body parts is the antichrist?

Posted by oljb | January 28, 2008 3:05 PM

You notice that the Obama campaign and Obama supporters generally don't go around publicizing virulent racist screeds from obscure right-wing nutjobs.

Posted by cressona | January 28, 2008 3:06 PM

i might be open to ecb's insights on hillary, if they shed light on her candidacy's positive, productive messages. instead, i see only posts like these, which are 100% of the time, snide, unimaginatively cynical and rife with feminist victimology.

Posted by Judith | January 28, 2008 3:07 PM

I fucking hate that shit, and have for years. If she looked like (fill in younger, "prettier" woman here), there'd just be bitching about how she didn't have enough experience or wouldn't be taken seriously, or couldn't possibly be smart.

As she is smart, and can be taken seriously (I'm not going to touch experience, but suffice to say, the woman isn't a newbie), the only things right-wing fucktards can fall back on are her looks. And that old humorous standby, violence against women. Because that's more socially acceptable right now than making "joking" threats about Obama on T-shirts.

Fuck all of them, and I hope their goddamn self-satisfied smirking faces have to choke on their jowls when the Dems take it in November.

Posted by Jessica | January 28, 2008 3:08 PM

Yes, and let us not forget the infamous "Hillary NutCracker" for sale last Xmas.

I'm not a Hillarian, but I hate this sort of sexist crap as much as the inevitable sludge that's going to be generated against Obama...

Everyone, regardless of what "side" of the issues or party you are one--brace yourself.

Posted by Andy Niable, Obamamerican | January 28, 2008 3:13 PM

Stupid! They couldn't have even made it $19.92?

Posted by annie | January 28, 2008 3:14 PM

See how easy and acceptable it is to make fun of a White Female. Try doing anything like that to Obama and there would be hell to pay.

Posted by Sargon Bighorn | January 28, 2008 3:16 PM

this totally convinced me to:

vote republican?
vote for hillary?
vote obama?

seriously, pointung out the sexist idiocy of the right wing is supposed to what? galvanize me against republicans?

Posted by Bellevue Ave | January 28, 2008 3:16 PM

the 'bucket of chicken' joke wasn't funny the first time i heard it in '92. but "want to see Hillary run? Throw rocks at her"? that's fucking hilarious!

Posted by josh bomb | January 28, 2008 3:16 PM

See, Erica, just as it would be bad for Obama if he is tagged as "the black candidate," it would be bad for Hillary to be tagged as "the feminist candidate." The "shrill, angry feminist harpy candidate" would be a very very bad thing to be tagged as. This is what cressona @8 is trying to say.

Nobody wants to turn on the TV every day for four years and find out yet again the President of the United States has responed to criticism with an overly-defensive accusation of racism or an overly-defensive accusation of sexism. Nobody will vote for that.

Posted by elenchos | January 28, 2008 3:17 PM

Cressona @ 3: Huh? Did you even READ THE POST? I got it from Broadsheet.

Posted by ECB | January 28, 2008 3:17 PM

Hillary is attractive. It is my opinion that this crap they say and sell would follow any woman candidate around. This is how our country treats strong, powerful, smart women.....we treat them like crap. We may have equal rights but we still do not value women equally. There is no better democratic female candidate than Hillary. She will eventually win. The all you haters (an easy word to say) can get angry for another 8 years. Peace.

Posted by Lynneland | January 28, 2008 3:19 PM

There are 300 million Americans out there. Some of them are going to be jerks.

Me, I think it's better to ignore that crap than to trot it out as a testament to one's victimhood. These jackasses are just trying to rile sensitive people like ECB up, and apparently it's succeeding. How many sloggers would have seen this crap without ECB promoting it?

There are idiots and assholes on all sides of every political topic. Pointing out the asshattery of particular opponents does not make one's cause nobler, it just makes the asshats happy for the attention while distracting from substantive discussion.

Posted by also | January 28, 2008 3:26 PM

Hillary: Don't feed the trolls.

Posted by Lloyd Clydesdale | January 28, 2008 3:27 PM

My gut feel is that, for some reason, they don't like her. Which makes her less electable, even if ECB won't admit that.

Is it fair? No. But that's reality.

Posted by Will in Seattle | January 28, 2008 3:27 PM
22 i want KFC for supper.

Posted by michael strangeways | January 28, 2008 3:29 PM

When Obama is elected president the right wingnuts will never make stupid racist jokes! We'll all hold hands sing Kumbaya together! Its only Hillary that triggers their psychotic rage!

Posted by Obama SuperFan | January 28, 2008 3:32 PM

I suspect that Hillary supporters would applaud if Hillary was raped.

That way she would get a great big amount of victim centered press and make all those big bad men seem really bad.

Posted by ecce homo | January 28, 2008 3:35 PM

Somebody somewhere rabidly doesn't like Hillary. I call Strawman.

Posted by Glenn | January 28, 2008 3:35 PM

Remember that collage that was floating around a few years back with pictures of chimpanzees and pictures of Bush making the same faces?

Posted by Ben | January 28, 2008 3:37 PM

God, you're boring, Ecce.

Posted by ECB | January 28, 2008 3:42 PM

I think this campaign has shown that overt sexism in America is more acceptable than overt racism. A few months back, when HRC was riding high, a woman at a McCain rally asked, "how do we beat the bitch?" The media was mostly amused. If the question had been asked about Obama using the obvious epithet, I'm sure a fire storm would have ensued. Not that America is any less racist than it is sexist. It's just easier to get away with sexism.

Posted by dreamflying | January 28, 2008 3:42 PM

Yeah... but the left wing cranks out crap like this also. (Any even remotely credible candidate is going to be targeted by some jack ass selling a bumper sticker or tee shirt.) All of it really elevates the debate (not). But only the Hillary camp gets hysterical over it...

Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me | January 28, 2008 3:43 PM

The thing about crap (yes, crap) like this is that it doesn't change anyone's mind.

I seriously doubt there's some guy who was thinking about voting for her who saw this, laughed, and changed his/her vote.

This is for the people who already hate her. This is right up there with Fred and "GOD HATES FAGS". They aren't converting anyone who didn't already think this way.

Posted by monkey | January 28, 2008 3:46 PM

This is the funniest thing I've seen all day! I hope Hillary loses just to piss off ECB.

Posted by no name | January 28, 2008 3:47 PM

Well, I suspect that you would SLOG on the matter of the rape of Hillary for at least a week if you thought it would give her a bump in the poles. No?

Posted by ecce homo | January 28, 2008 3:51 PM


The “obvious” epitaph that I assume you refer to is not a comparable epitaph. If he were referred to as the male equivalent to “bitch” by another man (or woman), bastard perhaps(?), I think it would have gotten similar coverage… But since I’m sure you had another epitaph in mind, I propose that you consider what the reaction will be if (when?) Obama is ever asked a question employing the opposite of the epitaph you had in mind, “how do we beat this honky (or cracker)”, by a black supporter?...

Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me | January 28, 2008 3:55 PM

@32 - A bump in the poles. Intelligent.

Posted by Callie | January 28, 2008 3:58 PM

I'm with @13 and @28. It's crap like this that makes my answer the "Is America more ready for a black President or a female President" question always "a black President".

Sexist shit like this is so much easier to get away with. People laugh. Ha Ha. Look at the shrill harpy bitch.

Where are the "funny" jokes about Obama being black? You know, eatin' fried chicken. Talkin' like he's from the 'hood. Sorry, but, everyone with a brain knows racism is not acceptable. Sexism, not so much.

Posted by Julie | January 28, 2008 4:00 PM

People make fun of presidential candidates all the time. These read like lousy bumper stickers, but they're not sexist -- they're just anti-Hillary.

Besides, remember when we made fun of her husband for having that penis that got him into all sorts of wacky trouble?

Posted by Jason Josephes | January 28, 2008 4:04 PM

So we're supposed to feel sorry for HRC because the right-wing smear machine is (predictably) in full gear with their snide, nasty, boorish comments. But wait! I thought 35 years of experience dealing with them meant there was nothing new they could dish out? I'm all confused again . . . .

Posted by kk | January 28, 2008 4:04 PM

@35. WORD.

Posted by arduous | January 28, 2008 4:07 PM

Julie, that same stuff about Obama is out there, but his supporters are too smart to draw attention to it. Reminding voters that people hate your candidate is not how you win an election. This is why Bill keeps wanting to tag Obama as "the black candidate."

ECB and NOW-NY are tagging Hillary as "the feminist candidate" and that is a mistake.

Posted by elenchos | January 28, 2008 4:08 PM

@37, no you're not supposed to feel sorry for HRC. You're supposed to feel pissed off that we still live in such a sexist society. Just as when people say racist things about Obama, you're supposed to feel pissed off that we still live in such a racist society.

Unless you're happy with our sexist racist society.

Posted by arduous | January 28, 2008 4:10 PM

Ben @ 26

Remember that collage that was floating around a few years back with pictures of chimpanzees and pictures of Bush making the same faces?

Yes. Yes I do, and I have to say that at the time I was, and for that matter still am, outraged beyond words that these gentle, intelligent and sensitive primates were sullied by being associated with a drunken fucking retard like George W. Bush.

Posted by wile_e_quixote | January 28, 2008 4:11 PM

I agree with ECB @27.

Posted by Will in Seattle | January 28, 2008 4:14 PM

@30, i don't know about that entirely. i mean, if women see people wearing those it has a negative effect. kids see it. other bigots see the shirts and feel justified in their own views. i think they are actually damaging to a certain extent.

Posted by infrequent | January 28, 2008 4:15 PM

will, you should know better than that!

Posted by infrequent | January 28, 2008 4:16 PM

Elenchos @39--Where? Where is there the same stuff about Obama?

Posted by caroline | January 28, 2008 4:21 PM

I feel like an apologist for ECB and Clinton, and I don't know either of them.

But ECB didn't say we should feel sorry for Clinton. She just pointed out the "funny" lines.

I haven't seen Clinton act like a victim either. I don't think these were funny, but I also don't think prison rape is funny, nor do I think jokes about Bill Clinton's fat thighs were funny either.

Posted by Tizzle | January 28, 2008 4:21 PM

@ecce: "a bump in the poles" -- polar bears and penguins are hard core for Obama, it doesn't matter what Clinton does.

Posted by Fnarf | January 28, 2008 4:22 PM

I find it interesting that you don't demonstrate the same amount of reflection on all the stupid things Bill Clinton is saying on the campaign trail on behalf of his wife's campaign. Even The Daily Show has started to call him out because he's going a wee bit too far.

Wasn’t former President Bill Clinton playing the race card when he sought to downplay Barack Obama’s victory in South Carolina by comparing him to Jesse Jackson? Why aren't you talking about this? Oh, because it doesn't suit your bias.

There is a lot of crappy things being said about all the candidates but I think the American people are smart enough to figure it out for themselves.

And once again, I see you're only responding to the trolls. Great plan you've got going there.

Posted by sprizee | January 28, 2008 4:31 PM

elenchos -- I saw the Hillary nutcracker profiled on CNN months ago (in a 2 minute segment, as if there isn't anything more important to talk about). "Hilary nutcracker" is one of the top 10 suggested searches when you type in "Hillary" into Google.

So, I don't think Hillary's supporters have to draw attention to it. The attention is there.

On the flip side, I just spent a couple of minutes trying to find racist humor on Obama on the internet and all I came up with was some Colorado businessman who made an inappropriate joke about changing the name of the "White" House at a banquet. Offensive, for sure, but he then apologized. Likely something the makers of the nutcracker and the "Hillary is fat and has small tits" products will not be doing.

Posted by Julie | January 28, 2008 4:34 PM


It's easy to find because you just google him with his middle name. Try searching for "Barack Hussein Obama", just like that with the double quotes. Skip past the first few hits and try some of the ones that mention "muslim", "terrorist" and so on.

But wait, there's more! Click on Images. Make sure Safe Search is off. Dig in a few pages deep. The Barney Fife and Borat parodies are droll; the Osama bin Laden comparisons are rather tedious. Look for the African tribesman photoshop; it's special on all sorts of levels.

Posted by elenchos | January 28, 2008 4:37 PM

The poles was a stripper reference...

She could use a good bump, and a women place is on a pole.

Dude, she smokes pole.

It's endless.

Posted by ecce homo | January 28, 2008 4:37 PM

I hate George Bush. This must make me a misandrist.

I dislike Hillary Clinton. This must make me a sexist.

Posted by Anon | January 28, 2008 4:39 PM

I will say again and again and again that Clinton supporters on the SLOG don't have a tenth the vitriol, ad hominems, and hateful language as you Obama supporters. We sit here and take your disgusting, sexist caricatures of our candidate and keep trying time after time to get back to the issues of the campaign. You disgrace your candidate and besmirch his vision of a better kind of politics.

Posted by Big Sven | January 28, 2008 4:47 PM

arduous @ 40:

The existence of racist, sexist people in our society does not make our society either racist or sexist. There are 300 million Americans. We don't have one "society" any more than we have one "weather" in the entire US.

Attack the idiots that ECB is promoting here and I will agree with you wholeheartedly. Rant about "our society" based on the stupid words of a few individuals and you cross the line into meaningless generalization and demagoguery.

Posted by also | January 28, 2008 4:50 PM

Hey Erica/Vote for HRC because she is a woman crowd:
What are you going to say when Ann Coulter runs in 2012?
All of the women/wymyn in my life refer to Ms Coulter as "bitch" or "cunt" or "bitch-cunt" or "bitch cunt who sucks green donkey dongs with pus" or "syphlitic crack whore." Does this make me a sexist for agreeing with my women friends/family?

Posted by Chkit | January 28, 2008 4:51 PM

Give it up, Ecce. You're not funny. You just don't have the knack. Much like the rest of the conservatives who are always talking about how funny they are and how libs don't have senses of humor. I get it all the time. It's stupid.

Posted by Fnarf | January 28, 2008 4:57 PM

caroline@39, search anti-Obama at cafepress. There are hundreds of racist designs, from a blackface tap-dancing cariacature to a photo of Obama with enlarged ears and lips, long Bin Laden hair, and a turban.

There are thousands of idiots, both sexist and racist, on the internet. They're not deciding the election, especially if we don't give them a podium.

Posted by Vanessa | January 28, 2008 4:58 PM

45. Caroline@45.


Posted by Vanessa | January 28, 2008 5:00 PM

I'm no Hillary fan, but I'm sorry to see this junk. Not surprised, just sorry it exists.

Posted by Mark | January 28, 2008 5:02 PM

@53 - and you would be wrong, Big Sven.

Sometimes it's hard to recognize your own actions - we all see what we say as either Nice or Well-deserved and what the "others" do as being Unkind or Below-the-belt.

Posted by Will in Seattle | January 28, 2008 5:09 PM

"People are selling, and presumably buying, absolute truckloads of sexist anti-Hillary garbage"

That's quite a presumption. Any half witted a-hole can put his stupid t-shirt on the internet. I could show you a dozen neo-nazi themed articles of clothing for sale out there, does that mean people are buying "absolute truckloads" of it?

Posted by markinthepark | January 28, 2008 5:10 PM

The bad news is that is that this is only the beginning of the New Salem Witch Trial.
Many have observed HRC's lightning rod qualities.
The attacks are way out of line but,they also fire up the Republican base.
Obama has pointed this out repeatedly.
How can she unite when she devides?

Posted by Zander | January 28, 2008 5:14 PM

@54, I said "such a sexist" and "such a racist" society. I don't disagree with you that there are plenty of good, non-racist, non-sexist people out there. I don't disagree that our society is less racist and sexist than it was 30 years ago. But as a whole, I believe our society is still much more racist and sexist than I believe it should be.

Posted by arduous | January 28, 2008 5:14 PM

OK, so we've got people supporting Obama because you hate batshit NOW members who yell at Ted Kennedy, and supporting Hillary because you're angry that some random bozos sell T-shirts online that call her a bitch.

Point of discussion: Do all elections ultimately have to be driven by anger and fear of the other guy's team? Is it inherent?

Posted by tsm | January 28, 2008 5:25 PM


Many elections are driven entirely by fear of scary foreigner types without hardly any thought to how angry you are at the other guy's douchebag supporters.

Posted by elenchos | January 28, 2008 5:28 PM

arduous @ 63:

Maybe I misinterpreted "such a sexist society" to mean "a society that is so very sexist" when you meant "a society in which some sexism can still be found." If so, I apologize.

Either way, I stand by the point that we don't like in "a society" at all. You can find egregious sexism and racism in the US, sure. But that doesn't mean we have to all paint each other with that same brush. There are too many of us to believe in a single coherent whole.

Me, I regret that some people base their beliefs on generalizations rather than specifics. And I regret that people like ECB thrive on outrage and encourage those who perpetrate it. But I don't for a second think that the actions of a few internet idiots reflect on our society as a whole, even to the extent that such a thing exists.

Posted by also | January 28, 2008 5:35 PM

Big Sven @53: nice victim complex you've got there. Are you seriously suggesting that it's OBAMA that's putting out this garbage? That's ridiculous. Obama supporters are for the most part fair and rational in their criticisms of Clinton -- certainly more so than Clinton supporters are of Obama -- and neither comes anywhere near the level of just like this sticker.

But remember that a Clinton campaign person was caught spreading the "Obama's a Muslim" garbage, and a fair number of Clinton supporters believe it. And there's the Jesse Jackson quote from Bill. And he's getting just as much filth as she is from the right wing. The difference is, he's not going out of his way to be outraged by it.

Posted by Fnarf | January 28, 2008 5:37 PM

Big Sven @ 53

I will say again and again and again that Clinton supporters on the SLOG don't have a tenth the vitriol, ad hominems, and hateful language as you Obama supporters. We sit here and take your disgusting, sexist caricatures of our candidate and keep trying time after time to get back to the issues of the campaign. You disgrace your candidate and besmirch his vision of a better kind of politics.

Sven, that's the funniest bit of hypocritical partisan outrage I've seen since the Republicans were falling all over themselves to defend Rush Limbaugh's drug use. Tell me another one, I could use the laugh right now. Oh, and Sven, it's silly and pathetic enough when Hillary Clinton and the New York NOW whine about her victimization, but it's even worse when you do it.

Posted by wile_e_quixote | January 28, 2008 5:37 PM

@65 - I don't know; seems to me a lot of Republicans hate liberals more than they hate al-Qaida, at least by the way they talk. Or that al-Qaida is the excuse to hate them.

Posted by tsm | January 28, 2008 5:38 PM

these regular tidal waves of inexcusably disgusting and shrill reactions to Hillary Clinton (and to Erica when she posts about her) make me all the more determined to support HRC's candidacy.

Posted by josh | January 28, 2008 6:12 PM

"No penis, no problem" is funny! To me that one is pro-Hillary! Thanks for posting this ECB.

Posted by Suz | January 28, 2008 6:37 PM

Jessica and Julie are right: Studies of schoolchildren have shown that sexist comments are more widely tolerated than racist comments.

Similarly, among adults, insulting terms for women tend to be accepted, while racist terms like the "n" word are frequently met with shock and/or challenged. I shouldn't need to roll out studies to prove it; there is plenty of evidence right here on Slog.

Let there be no doubt, this DOES affect how girls and women feel about themselves, and how boys and men see them.

But that aside, in this particular instance, I have to agree with elenchos:

"Reminding voters that people hate your candidate is not how you win an election... ECB and NOW-NY are tagging Hillary as "the feminist candidate" and that is a mistake."

Posted by Irena | January 28, 2008 6:50 PM

@35, I agree completely.

Posted by Cinders | January 28, 2008 6:58 PM

WiS@60, Fnarf@67 and wile_e_quixote@68: I'm not talking about Obama, and you know it. I'm not talking about Clinton, either. I'm talking about Clinton and Obama supporters here on the SLOG and how we talk to each other. I've said many times that I like Obama and will support him if he's the nominee. The same courtesy almost never comes out of the SLOG Obama supporters.

Do you honestly think that unPC and Original Monique and Obama SuperFan and I talk about Obama the way that many (though not WiS and elenchos, as I have said many times) of the Obama fans talk about Clinton, especially in this particular thread?


Posted by Big Sven | January 28, 2008 6:58 PM

Sven - you're correct. I'm not a supporter or opponent of either but the vitriol coming from the Obama people is intense. We have seen comment from them that actually question the motives of HRC supporters regarding the US's welfare.

I will not vote for a repubo no matter what - if an Obama supporter thinks McCain would be better than Hillary...

Posted by whatever | January 28, 2008 7:14 PM

Obama, the hip hop ya don't stop pres w/ da bling bling and the sing sing.

Homes got it strait and delivered the 9 inches to da hoe in da buttho'.

Hilldawg, with the snuke in her snizz ain't no good accept to be wearin' my jizz.

Ecce out...

Posted by ecce homo | January 28, 2008 7:20 PM

I'm sorry, but you're high. I don't see ANY of the regulars here who support Obama delivering any kind of vitriol at all. What I DO see is Clinton supporters getting all defensive and agitated if anyone says anything negative about their candidate -- and I see them interpreting any positive comment about Obama as negative about Clinton.

Any offensiveness is just the usual spray from the shitheads hitting the water.

Don't assume that anyone here represents anyone but his- or herself. I'll return the favor.

Ecce, you're one of the shitheads.

Posted by Fnarf | January 28, 2008 7:27 PM

Really FNarf?

Ah, the last refuge of desperate Clintonistas--rallying around outrage at sexist neanderthals. Nuthin' like trying to re-create that Sister Soulja moment from '92.

Where'd you hear about this one, Erica? A Howard Wolfson press release?

Posted by cressona | January 28, 2008 3:01 PM

I HATE Hillary and naturally will vote for a third party if she gets the nomination (I studied her record and just do not want that in the White House, and I disapprove of any form of dynatic rule) But this is over the top. However I did kinda laugh at the Hillary Meal Deal.

Posted by Cato the Younger Younger | January 28, 2008 3:02 PM

Posted by whatever | January 28, 2008 8:07 PM

Fnarf, you don't like my Obama rap?

Posted by ecce homo | January 28, 2008 8:24 PM

I agree with Big Sven-there is TONS of anti-Clinton vitriol on the Slog. It is ridiculous. For the most part I see Clinton supporters making rational, well-supported statements. Not so from Slog's Obama camp.

BTW, I am undecided.

Posted by Undecided | January 28, 2008 8:41 PM

I actually LIKE Hillary ... and smearing like this is why people will never ever ever look at her record and why she has become such a divisive figure in this country!

Posted by OR Matt | January 28, 2008 8:48 PM

I can't stick around, guys, so can you do me a favor and let me know later who wins the all-important argument about which presidential candidate has the larger minority of rude supporters on Slog? Because I just can't enough of that shit, y'all.

Posted by tsm | January 28, 2008 8:58 PM

Re: Acceptance of Misogyny vs. Acceptance of Racism

One notable difference is there are many women in America who accept patriarchal gender roles. Conservative women hate Hillary every bit as much as conservative men, if not more. Christians, in particular, tend to buy into the whole "I am my husband's servant" idea. You don't hear that kind of subservient acceptance from Blacks (or, for that matter, any ethnic minority group).

Accordingly, I think there is more political unity along racial lines than along gender lines, so the racial lines are much more difficult to cross.

In this case, it's compounded by the fact that people have been stocking up on anti-Hillary ammunition since 1992, long before anyone had ever even heard of Obama, much less develop hatred/fear of him.

Posted by Mahtli69 | January 28, 2008 9:04 PM

I'm down on Clinton because of her politics, but I am shocked by all the blatant crude sexist attacks and the mainstream status of some of their sources. This country still sooo needs a feminist movement.

Posted by mirror | January 28, 2008 9:08 PM

@84 - I think you hit on the right word there -- mainstream. The sexist stuff about Hillary is mainstream (many people think the Hillary nutcracker is funny, and CNN's piece on it was like, "oh, isn't this hilsrious", not, "oh isn't this sexist").

The racist humor about Obama (and of course, it's going to exist, given that there is a percentage of people who will never vote for a black person, ever) is not in the mainstream. No person of any sort of intelligence would laugh at or react with anything but horror at it.

And @83, I think you could argue that it's precisely that sort of acceptance of the subservient role by some women (and intolerance of any woman who defies that role) that is one of the reasons that "America" is not as ready for a female President.

Posted by Julie | January 28, 2008 9:28 PM

If an Obama supporter looked for it, there would be plenty of crap out there like this HRC stuff.

It appears Obama supporters are more excited about being FOR their candidate than HRC supporters who seem to be more interested in finding someone to blame.

BTW, mirrir...this country already had a real feminist movement, back when I was coming up. We fought for equality, not preferential treatment. We believed that we were equal, that if not held down because of our gender we could do anything anyone else could do.

Nowhere in that real feminist movement was the idea of entitlement, fact that's the very thing women HAD to do before us and we fought vehemently against it.

Look at your candidate for who they are. Decide on the issues, records. Oh, and get a sense of humor about the stuff fools float about your candidate of choice.

Posted by G Davis | January 28, 2008 9:38 PM

Whatever: the Sister Souljah comment is a fair cop. And Cato's comment is pretty bland "I don't want", "I disapprove".

Ecce: I don't like your anything.

Posted by Fnarf | January 28, 2008 9:45 PM

@86. You sound like the anti-gay folks who think the gays are asking for "special rights". Nobody's asking for preferential treatment for Hillary.

All I'm saying is that people would be horrified and offended if anybody made fun of Obama for his race. I would love it if people were horrified and offended when Hillary was made fun of for her gender.

Cearly, making fun of Hillary (or any candidate) is in bounds. Jon Stewart had a bit about her robotic, programmed laugh awhile ago that was great. But, the creation of a 527 organization called Citizens United Not Timid, is not cool, Zeus.

Posted by Julie | January 28, 2008 9:54 PM

Fnarf- fair enough. But what I really want to know- and what it all comes down to- is this:

What will your candidate do about the heartbreak of psoriasis?

Posted by Big Sven | January 28, 2008 10:01 PM

Oh please FNarf explain how the Sister comment was fair - and of course that wasn't the point - the point was that Obama supporters were vitriolic and the examples that I gave were.

The Sister Soula moment had to do with calling out someone from one's own party or side as being too much, too extreme - how does pointing out the anti HRC products do that?

Posted by whatever | January 28, 2008 10:09 PM

Nice try whatever, but unfortunately it's as lame as Robert Johnson's claim that he was referring to Barack Obama's community organizing and not drug use.

Let's see, there's a comment from Cressona that criticizes Clintonistas, that's not an attack on Hillary, that's an attack on her supporters, some of whom, such as Bob Johnson, Billy Shaheen, Mark Penn and Bill Clinton, have been sliming Obama in a way that would make Karl Rove proud, as witness Bill Clinton's comments about "well, Jesse Jackson won South Carolina twice" or his misstatements of Obama's record with regards to opposing the Iraq war (as well as lying about his own record in opposing the Iraq war). Or Bob "I support privatizing Social Security and am against the estate tax" Johnson's comments. Then there was Richard Cohen's attempt to smear Obama as an anti-semite because because of the fact that a magazine published by the daughter of the minister at Obama's church had given an award to Louis Farrakhan, oh, and let's not forget those "Obama is a muslim who went to a madrassa" e-mails that someone keeps sending out. Nice company you Clinton supporters keep.

Then there is the comment from Cato the Younger Younger saying that he hates Hillary and won't vote for her. Oh, yeah, that's vitriolic. Except you ignore the fact that Cato brings up an important point about political dynasties which Clinton supporters are loath to answer, namely does America really need a Clinton dynasty to replace the Bush dynasty. Asking that question leads to asking other questions, such as

  • Would Hillary Clinton have ever been elected to the Senate from New York if she hadn't been married to Bill Clinton?

  • What role will Bill Clinton play in a Hillary Clinton administration? Who will be in charge in a Hillary Clinton administration?

  • Would anyone be voting for Hillary Clinton were she not married to Bill Clinton?

  • Given Hillary's track record of giving George W. Bush everything he asked for in the run up to Iraq is her claim to oppose the war based on principle or merely political expediency?

Man, Clinton supporters hate those questions, and when you don't accept their shuck and jive answers (oh yeah, I forgot about Mario Cuomo's shuck and jive comment about Obama) they accuse you of being misogynistic, or a crypto-Republican, or of irrational anti-Clinton hatred or they become completely unhinged like Maria Pappas of the New York chapter of the NOW.

If there is a more self-pitying group of voters out there than supporters of Hillary Clinton I don't know who they are. The objections I see from Clinton supporters are nothing more than indignation over the fact that some people don't want to join them in drinking Bill and Hillary's tasty Kool-Aid.

Posted by wile_e_quixote | January 28, 2008 10:21 PM

@33: Bitch, please. Epithet.

Posted by Greg | January 28, 2008 10:26 PM

Fnarf @77 and @87: Please don't feed the trolls.

As the four of you who actually read my posts know, I am firmly in the Obama camp. But tonight's SOTU address, which I couldn't bring myself to watch without throwing up, should remind us of what we're in for if EITHER Clinton or Obama loses in November. So I hereby pledge before the entire Slog community that I will vote for Hillary Clinton if she is the Democratic nominee in the general election. Are any of my fellow Obamaniacs willing to join me?

And are HRC supporters willing to pledge their support for Obama if he is the nominee?

Posted by RainMan | January 28, 2008 10:32 PM

@85 - I don't really like the "ready" word, because I think the country is more than ready for a female President (or, for that matter, a black President).

By my comments, I think women have more challenges getting elected than ethnic minorities, despite half of the electorate being female. But, a female President would be one hell of an ice-breaker toward overall societal progress in gender equality. I might even go so far as to say that America needs a female President more than it needs a black President, but I won't.

Posted by Mahtli69 | January 28, 2008 10:40 PM

@93. I will happily vote for whoever wins the nomination. Both candidates have their strengths and their weaknesses, but they are both individuals I can get behind...

Posted by Julie | January 29, 2008 7:39 AM

wile perhaps you don't know what is meant by vitriol.

A noun
1 vituperation, invective, vitriol

abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will

So you see it is the tone not the validity of the comments.

I'm not for HRC or against BO and will not vote for a repubo.

Posted by whatever | January 29, 2008 8:54 AM

Being from that area of the country where Hillary serves ... my father votes for her as does my step mother ...

And they LIKE Hillary. She lives and accepts a complex gray world like most New Yorkers. She may not be likable all the time. But she does her fucking job and protects the interests of her constituency ... which are more complex than what can be put in a stupid blog comment blurb.

Which brings me to the next point. Do you know what I fucking HATE about America. EVERYONE IS FUCKING RIGHT. Now one can compromise, no one can agree to disagree ... and I have to admit the right wingers more or less started it to sneak in some destructive subvert neocon movement. THEY can't accept my right to live godless, they can't accept the right to choice, they can't accept that some people understand the costs to society of mass transit, education, and social reforms. To a certain degree the left as all but abandoned the hicks in this country to bury themselves, yet it's still not enough. But even they are not totally inocent.

Posted by OR Matt | January 29, 2008 9:19 AM

Hillary misrepresented Obama's abortion voting record; Bill patronized Obama for doing just as well as Jesse Jackson. I cannot vote for dishonorable politicians even if there is a D by their name. If it's Clinton vs. McCain, I'm voting for McCain.

Posted by character counts | January 29, 2008 9:32 AM

Julie is right and so is elenchos. Sexism is far more acceptable in American society (and OF COURSE there is a collective American society #66, don't be disingenuous) but you don't do yourself any favors by painting yourself as a victim of it. Which HRC is smart enough to know. Apparently some of her supporters, not so much.

Posted by chi type | January 29, 2008 10:10 AM

@98. I would agree with you about McCain if this was the year 2000. But it is not - it's 2008 and the Straight Talk Express is a far distant memory. McCain has been almost as bad as Romney in terms of changing his positions to whatever is most likely to get him the Republican nomination.

Posted by Julie | January 29, 2008 12:51 PM

I'm sorry, I haven't decided between Clinton and Obama yet--but this shit is funny.

"If you can't laugh at yourself, you've never seen what you look like sleeping."

--Harry Anderson

Posted by Wolf | January 29, 2008 3:50 PM

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