Monday, July 16, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: The Ladies Who Lunched
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 5:10 PM
I met my friend "Emily" a few years ago when my husband and I were looking for a third on Craigslist. (The husband and I are both bi.) Sleazy, I know. Emily contacted me, said she was interested, and sent a picture saying she was "male down there." We didn't care, and she was super cute, but was only in town on a night that I had to work. I told her to keep my husband and me in mind next time she was around. We found another third a little while later and didn't expect to hear back from Emily. But we did, a month or so later, and we got together for a fun night. Emily and I really hit it off. We began meeting for coffee (and occasional sex) whenever she was in town, and became good friends.
Fast forward to two weeks ago. My mother wanted to meet me for lunch, and I'd already promised to meet up with Emily. I didn't foresee any problems; my parents had been pretty close-minded throughout my adolescence, but, a few years ago, when parental snooping led Mom to discover I'm bi, kinky, in a "monogamish" marriage, and that I sell my panties to fetishists online, they came to terms with it pretty well. So I told her mom I'd be bringing a friend.
Lunch was strained, to say the least. Mom had the good sense to be polite, but I could tell she suspected something was different about Emily. Emily, a very affectionate person, she kissed me goodbye when she left, another shock to my mother.
After lunch my mother interrogated me about my friend. She did the obnoxious gender-pronoun fumble and wavered between "him," "her," and "it" the entire time. We got into a fight about calling Emily an "it" and the conversation ended with my mom telling me that I have a pole up my ass. I'm not a particularly PC person, but I still think it's cruel to be such a dick about a lady who happens to have a dick. Was I wrong to introduce Emily to my mother, knowing that my mother has a lot of archaic ideas about gender roles and gender identities? And what do I do to smooth things over with my mom? I'm not apologizing, because I wasn't wrong, but I do love my mom.
Kinkster Is Distressed
My response after the jump...
···························
Wow—it sounds like your mom's a bitch.
But it doesn't sound like your mom's a total bitch. Don't get me wrong: your mom's nearly totalled—she's so close—but she's not... quite... there. Because a total bitch wouldn't have waited for your trans friend to leave before doing the obnoxious gender-pronoun fumble. A total bitch—and a total bigot—would've called Emily an "it" to her face.
Was it a mistake to introduce your trans friend Emily to your near-total bitch mom? I don't think so, KID, but you should check with Emily to see how she feels. If Emily's upset about the "strained" conversation, and if she didn't appreciate being scrutinized by your mother over lunch, then the date was a mistake and you owe Emily an apology—and only Emily.
Even if your lunch date ended unpleasantly, KID, it could prove to be a retroactive success. They say that nothing cures homophobia faster than getting to know an actual gay person. Well, the same goes for transphobia: nothing cures transphobia faster than getting to know an actual trans person. But the cure is rarely instantaneous; it takes time. But your mom's had her first shot: she's met an actual trans person—that's out of the way—and while it's too bad that this "first contact" prompted your mom to act like a near-total bitch, that kind of reaction is fairly typical. Very few 'phobes are instantly cured upon meeting their first gay, lesbian, trans, or bi person. But that's always how it starts. However adamant your mother seemed during your argument, however set her bigotry seemed, someone she loves came to the defense of someone she hates. That registers. Continue to stand your ground, KID, refuse to apologize to your mother, and hammer away at your mom's bigotry and small-mindedness whenever the subject comes up... and who knows? Your mom, like so many 'phobes before her, could be cured. In time.
And I do think there's hope for your mom. Perhaps I'm attaching too much significance to this fact, KID, but I think it's a good sign that your mom waited for Emily to leave before she went all him/her/it on you. Your mother, whatever her flaws, doesn't see herself as a hateful person and doesn't want to be perceived as hateful by others, including Emily, which is why she had "the good sense to be polite." There's some basic human decency in there somewhere—in your mom—and you should be able to leverage that against your mom's bigotry.
Good luck.
1
A very thoughtful reply, IMO.
(AndI think it's hilarious that the close-minded mother used asspole language.)
(AndI think it's hilarious that the close-minded mother used asspole language.)
2
What's with the "parental snooping?" Unless KID is under 21, it's just plain snooping and invasions of privacy are not benign, that's why ithey're considered invasive. KID may love her mom but her mother needs a big dose of "back off or stay away."
3
Your mom doesn't need to not only know of but also meet who you're fucking on the side.
You know there are actual sexual mores; you may not agree with them, but you may actually have to respect them to not go around offending people.
Bunch of fucking morons.
You know there are actual sexual mores; you may not agree with them, but you may actually have to respect them to not go around offending people.
Bunch of fucking morons.
4
@2 - Geez, KID's mom knows *way more* than mine ever does or will! - & the mom was more or less okay. Maybe not whee over the moon, maybe she shouldn't have snooped, but that water is way under the bridge, & they sound okay. If KID wants more boundaries there, she has to set them. But she didn't sound too upset about that disclosure to me.
Not all parent-child relationships are the same. I'm hopeful Dan is right & that KID's mom finds herself analyzing her reactions to Emily, & that KID sticks to her guns. Bravo, KID, for bein' open-minded.
Not all parent-child relationships are the same. I'm hopeful Dan is right & that KID's mom finds herself analyzing her reactions to Emily, & that KID sticks to her guns. Bravo, KID, for bein' open-minded.
6
When I was a little nerdling, my mother taught me, "If it wears a skirt, call it a 'her.'" That's not politics. It's just polite.
That being said, if KID's mom is going to get over transphobia by meeting a transperson, but it's more likely if she meets a transperson who's not French kissing her married daughter. That's not a baby step, there.
But was there any need to say, "Hi mom, this isn't just my transsexual friend but the one upon whom I'm doing what you'd call cheating on my husband!"? Why not just introduce her as a friend and give said friend a heads-up to tone down the romance in front of the conservative mom?
That being said, if KID's mom is going to get over transphobia by meeting a transperson, but it's more likely if she meets a transperson who's not French kissing her married daughter. That's not a baby step, there.
But was there any need to say, "Hi mom, this isn't just my transsexual friend but the one upon whom I'm doing what you'd call cheating on my husband!"? Why not just introduce her as a friend and give said friend a heads-up to tone down the romance in front of the conservative mom?
7
Just pointing out that alot of people out there probably don't know the proper pronouns to use for a trans person, and they might not be fumbling to be assholes, they just don't know which to use.
8
I actually have a question related to this letter. I've seen occasionally that some people - some trans, some intersex - prefer not to be referred to with any gendered pronouns at all. Granted that's not the case here, as 'Emily' is clearly a transwoman and should be referred to as 'she' or 'her', so this is a bit of a non sequitur. Still:
I've never referred to another human being as 'it', but I simply don't know any other gender-neutral pronouns. How does one refer to a person that prefers not to be gendered at all?
I've never referred to another human being as 'it', but I simply don't know any other gender-neutral pronouns. How does one refer to a person that prefers not to be gendered at all?
9
Srsly, you bring your fuck buddy on a date with your mom?! Maybe I'm just close-minded but meeting the fam is a big step in regular relationships. Maybe you were a little wrong in springing a trans fuck buddy with whom youre not even in a real relationship on your relatively closed-minded mother. Not only are you springing your private life on her without notice, you're also springing queer sexuality without much notice. Maybe if you had told her your friend was trans before lunch, it might have gone differently.
Sorry LW, and trans fuckbuddies everywhere. I don't mean this to say trans is wrong or trans people should be kept in the closet. But, i never brought a date home unless I was actually, you know, dating them. Even then, I never brought my first, married in an open relationship, boyfriend home to mom and dad. Partly because it was doomed from the start and Mainly because i wanted a commitment first which I obviously wasn't going to get.
A little advance notice to opening minds goes a long way.
Sorry LW, and trans fuckbuddies everywhere. I don't mean this to say trans is wrong or trans people should be kept in the closet. But, i never brought a date home unless I was actually, you know, dating them. Even then, I never brought my first, married in an open relationship, boyfriend home to mom and dad. Partly because it was doomed from the start and Mainly because i wanted a commitment first which I obviously wasn't going to get.
A little advance notice to opening minds goes a long way.
10
bruski, that's totally true, and even after being told, some will have a hard time remembering. Keep being patient with these folks, as long as they're actually trying and their heart is in the right place.
Calling someone 'it' after being told not to is a jerk move. KID isn't the one needing a pole-ectomy.
Calling someone 'it' after being told not to is a jerk move. KID isn't the one needing a pole-ectomy.
11
Why the fuck would someone bring their third to meet their mom whom they know is not exactly the world's most sex positive mom? Just to avoid cancelling a lunch date?
Unless you got something real serious and this person will be part of the family on a long term basis there is usually no reason to introduce your sex partners to your parents. It just stirs up needless drama with no real benefit to anyone.
Unless you got something real serious and this person will be part of the family on a long term basis there is usually no reason to introduce your sex partners to your parents. It just stirs up needless drama with no real benefit to anyone.
12
HoverDog, some people like 'they/their/them' even when referring to a particular person in the singular. Others like some new-fangled words such as 'hir'.
I recently read of a group of schoolchildren who'd adapted the word 'yo' as a personal pronoun, to be used usually when the gender of the subject is unknown, but also occasionally when it is known. Meaning, when 'yo' is used as a pronoun, it's most frequently when the gender is unknown--'We have a substitute today, hope yo's cool!" But it's sometimes used even when the user knows the gender of the subject--"My cousin better hurry up, yo's always late."
Lastly, I do know a person who is female-bodied and prefers the pronoun 'it'. I had a hard time getting past my distaste for calling a human 'it', but that's how It wants to be referred to. (I generally capitalize the word in this context, to clarify meaning.)
I recently read of a group of schoolchildren who'd adapted the word 'yo' as a personal pronoun, to be used usually when the gender of the subject is unknown, but also occasionally when it is known. Meaning, when 'yo' is used as a pronoun, it's most frequently when the gender is unknown--'We have a substitute today, hope yo's cool!" But it's sometimes used even when the user knows the gender of the subject--"My cousin better hurry up, yo's always late."
Lastly, I do know a person who is female-bodied and prefers the pronoun 'it'. I had a hard time getting past my distaste for calling a human 'it', but that's how It wants to be referred to. (I generally capitalize the word in this context, to clarify meaning.)
13
My parents are very cute about their queer-phobia. They say they are totally open minded, but then point out a guy holding a pink purse to me on the 43 and say how wonderful it is that people can be gay in public in Seattle.
Sometimes parents have a long way to go.
Sometimes too... introducing your mom to your f-buddy isn't ever ok.
Sometimes parents have a long way to go.
Sometimes too... introducing your mom to your f-buddy isn't ever ok.
14
It was inconsiderate (and kinda weird) for her to invite her mom to tag along in the first place. I don't understand why someone would put themselves in such a potentially awkward situation, having to be the only common link between two complete strangers for an entire meal. Don't double up your lunch dates unless they know each other and/or will have something in common to talk about.
15
I hope people give at least some consideration to what @3's trying to get across. There is a lot of territory between being in the closet (about whatever) and shouting from the rooftops; between being discreet and diplomatic and leading people gently in the direction you want them to go, and being an in-your-face asshole (which @3 kind of is).
The other thing is this: KID doesn't mention whether she and her husband have kids or plan to have them, or whether she has any siblings with kids or breeding proclivities. But much of a parent's initial negative reaction to "differentness" in a child's manner of living is about the death of dreams. For gay offspring, it's often the parents' swallowing the realization that their genes or their name will not be carried on, at least not in the way they have fondly imagined. For DECADES, remember. And for bis/polys/etc., it's initially very hard for them to imagine children being brought forth or brought up in "that" environment (never mind that in most cases they found ways to have sex that would have horrified their kids while their kids were under the same roof, or very nearby).
The other thing is this: KID doesn't mention whether she and her husband have kids or plan to have them, or whether she has any siblings with kids or breeding proclivities. But much of a parent's initial negative reaction to "differentness" in a child's manner of living is about the death of dreams. For gay offspring, it's often the parents' swallowing the realization that their genes or their name will not be carried on, at least not in the way they have fondly imagined. For DECADES, remember. And for bis/polys/etc., it's initially very hard for them to imagine children being brought forth or brought up in "that" environment (never mind that in most cases they found ways to have sex that would have horrified their kids while their kids were under the same roof, or very nearby).
16
I'm with @9. KID fumbled by introducing a fuckbuddy to mom. I've rarely introduced my parents to FBs-- and when I did , it was because we had a non-FB relationship as well (e.g., coworker) and because I knew the FB would have the good sense not to advertise that we're FBs.
Open-mindedness is fine and all, but it's too much to make your mom meet the person who is plowing her little girl on the side.
Open-mindedness is fine and all, but it's too much to make your mom meet the person who is plowing her little girl on the side.
17
No excuse for her mom calling Emily an "it" but KID may have gotten exactly what she wanted, partly at Emily's expense. Instead of using the occasion to gently coax her mom away from transphobia, it sounds like she set up the lunch just to rub her nose in it. Now she gets to be unassailably in the right, but perhaps she could have helped her mom to be right too.
19
@8 Here ya go!
Because there isn't a single set of gender neutral pronouns preferred by everyone, it's generally a good idea to ask if you're speaking to someone directly, though if you default to one particular one to use online when you're unsure it's fine.
Because there isn't a single set of gender neutral pronouns preferred by everyone, it's generally a good idea to ask if you're speaking to someone directly, though if you default to one particular one to use online when you're unsure it's fine.
20
@ TheMisanthrope: Seconded. I'm not sure why she didn't say something to her mother ahead of time. If my mom was "ok" with my lifestyle, but "ok" in the sense that she was "working" on it, I wouldn't spring something like that on her... particularly in a setting where I have a feeling mom was probably expecting to get all the attention and not have to split it with someone else.
21
Dan has to take these letters at face value but what I got out of it was a self absorbed young woman using her trans fuck buddy as a way to be confrontational while being able to use the struggle for LGBT equality to clear herself of blame for creating the situation to begin with.
She was trying to get her mom upset. She succeeded and can running to Dan for validation.
She was trying to get her mom upset. She succeeded and can running to Dan for validation.
22
I think Dan wrote a "too-nice" reply so as to not inspire more accusations of trans-phobia; the accusations are unfounded, for the most part, but you see him tip-toeing as a result. His response should have included a small admonition for bringing a fuck-buddy, trans or no, on a date with your mother. Another admonition - was there any need to introduce Emily as a fuck-buddy? Just because the mother snooped, doesn't mean she needs (or wants) to know every little detail of her daughter's sex life; it sounded like she heard quite a lot for her trouble the first time 'round.
@ 6, 7 - I totally agree. Can't assume that people are going to know pronouns - meeting trans people is still a rather new concept for a lot of people, you can't expect 'em to get it right. Patience and tolerance, that's where it's at.
@ 6, 7 - I totally agree. Can't assume that people are going to know pronouns - meeting trans people is still a rather new concept for a lot of people, you can't expect 'em to get it right. Patience and tolerance, that's where it's at.
24
@17, 21 - right on the money. She was getting some more payback at her mother for snooping the first time. Almost every aspect of that confrontation could have been avoided merely through some thought beforehand.
25
@17, 21, 24 - agreed.
Are we supposed to think that in one fell snoop, Mom found out KID was bi, kinky, in a monogamish marriage, and sells her panties? Either Mom didn't have the sense to stop when she found the first clue, or KID didn't prevent it from happening multiple times. That's not carelessness, that's a messed up family.
Are we supposed to think that in one fell snoop, Mom found out KID was bi, kinky, in a monogamish marriage, and sells her panties? Either Mom didn't have the sense to stop when she found the first clue, or KID didn't prevent it from happening multiple times. That's not carelessness, that's a messed up family.
26
Okay, I've read the letter twice and I still haven't figured out how the mom could tell that Emily is trans. I admit that I don't know any trans folks, so maybe I'm just clueless. If I bring a friend to lunch with someone else, and the nature of my friendship becomes an issue, am I wrong to assume that "she's a friend with benefits," is more than enough information? I mean, I have friends I introduce around, but I can't think of a single time the particulars of their genetalia have been a valid topic of conversation. When I introduced my husband to my family I didn't introduce him as "uncut."
27
The trans conversation aside-- I don't understand why KID would put herself in this situation in the first place-- it sounds uncomfortable for everyone involved. It's one thing if it was a chance for everyone to be properly introduced and open but it sounds like neither the mother or girlfriend even knew what they were getting themselves into.
The girlfriend doesn't seem to have been aware or concerned about the possibility that she might need to be discreet and her mother expects to see a "friend" and is instead met with a stranger who's unexpectedly affectionate toward her married daughter.
I think it may be simplifying things a bit too much to say that her mother was simply uncomfortable and cruel to the girlfriend over her being trans. She might have been thrown off and upset for any number of reasons. It doesn't excuse any rude behavior, but the mother was apparently polite to the girlfriend and I feel like most queer and/or informed people forget that a lot of mainstream society genuinely just doesn't know how to approach the subject of trans or genderqueer people.
I wasn't there, but from the sounds of it the mom needs to be cut some slack.
The girlfriend doesn't seem to have been aware or concerned about the possibility that she might need to be discreet and her mother expects to see a "friend" and is instead met with a stranger who's unexpectedly affectionate toward her married daughter.
I think it may be simplifying things a bit too much to say that her mother was simply uncomfortable and cruel to the girlfriend over her being trans. She might have been thrown off and upset for any number of reasons. It doesn't excuse any rude behavior, but the mother was apparently polite to the girlfriend and I feel like most queer and/or informed people forget that a lot of mainstream society genuinely just doesn't know how to approach the subject of trans or genderqueer people.
I wasn't there, but from the sounds of it the mom needs to be cut some slack.
28
@26 some trans people are completely passable. Some aren't. It's a spectrum, as life is. I can tell 8/10 times.
Hermaphrodites gets their own category as I can't tell them as well, but that's normally not the case and probably wouldn't prompt such discussions.
Hermaphrodites gets their own category as I can't tell them as well, but that's normally not the case and probably wouldn't prompt such discussions.
29
Wow, more projection going on in this thread than in a 9-screen cineplex!
@6: Where the fuck does the LW say "French-kissed"? She said "kissed". Which could be on the neck, on the cheek, on the lips or a full-on attempted organic tonsillectomy; why assume it's the last on that list?
@6, 9, 11, 16, 22 and probably others now the meme's been set: NOWHERE does the LW say that she introduced Emily to her mother as anything more than "a friend". Not a fuckbuddy, not someone she's "cheating on her husband with." A FRIEND. Yeah, apparently an obviously T friend which Mumsy picked up on. Here's the news: it's entirely possible (I've done it) to introduce a T friend to a family member without the immediate assumption that one is fucking (or being fucked by) said T person. Again, not even hinted at in the LW's account; all I see is that Mom was squicked by the T business, not by any implication that daughter was doing the beast-with-two-backs with "it". (Even though that DOES happen to be the case.)
Y'all have some seriously dirty minds. And apparently some issues with reading comprehension.
@6: Where the fuck does the LW say "French-kissed"? She said "kissed". Which could be on the neck, on the cheek, on the lips or a full-on attempted organic tonsillectomy; why assume it's the last on that list?
@6, 9, 11, 16, 22 and probably others now the meme's been set: NOWHERE does the LW say that she introduced Emily to her mother as anything more than "a friend". Not a fuckbuddy, not someone she's "cheating on her husband with." A FRIEND. Yeah, apparently an obviously T friend which Mumsy picked up on. Here's the news: it's entirely possible (I've done it) to introduce a T friend to a family member without the immediate assumption that one is fucking (or being fucked by) said T person. Again, not even hinted at in the LW's account; all I see is that Mom was squicked by the T business, not by any implication that daughter was doing the beast-with-two-backs with "it". (Even though that DOES happen to be the case.)
Y'all have some seriously dirty minds. And apparently some issues with reading comprehension.
30
"Okay, I've read the letter twice and I still haven't figured out how the mom could tell that Emily is trans."
Is that a joke?
Is that a joke?
31
@26, the letter said that Mom could tell something was 'off' about Emily, and after Emily left, got the whole scoop from KID. The kissing as she left also put Mom back on her heels.
@27, I agree that KID set up a situation bound to create problems. How hard to say, "Mom, there's a friend from out of town I don't get to see that often--okay if she tags along to lunch?" and then "Hey Emily, Mom's kinda weird about the poly thing. Can we be on the downlow this time?" Much better for all concerned.
However, insisting on calling Emily 'it' after being told otherwise is really going too far.
@27, I agree that KID set up a situation bound to create problems. How hard to say, "Mom, there's a friend from out of town I don't get to see that often--okay if she tags along to lunch?" and then "Hey Emily, Mom's kinda weird about the poly thing. Can we be on the downlow this time?" Much better for all concerned.
However, insisting on calling Emily 'it' after being told otherwise is really going too far.
32
You brought your transexual third on a lunch date with your not particularly ok with kink mom? Sorry, KID, you disrespected your third and your mom in this transparent attempt to create drama. The only thing that went wrong with this is YOU being an attention-whoring asshole. I could give a shit if this poor old lady, after having just been ambushed by her daughter's sex life being jammed in her face over sammies, fumbled on fucking pronouns. Fuck that. KID lives up to her name and she needs to apologize to both parties ASAP.
And what's up with Dan? Seriously, maybe you need a vacation or something, but you've been noticeably unable to call out some of the idiots you've published in the last couple of weeks. Don't go soft on us, so to speak.
And what's up with Dan? Seriously, maybe you need a vacation or something, but you've been noticeably unable to call out some of the idiots you've published in the last couple of weeks. Don't go soft on us, so to speak.
33
@29 yeah, we could all be reading into it...but considering all the coyness in the letter regarding the mom's snooping, one suspects the LW is being coy about the extent of the physical nature of the lunch considering she said, "Emily, a very affectionate person."
From being in the closet one knows the difference between doing activities with an open FB and closetting the relationship side of things. There is a world of difference in behaviors. Or, as Agent Cooper would have put it, "How long have you been seeing Emily?"
The kiss obviously wasn't a peck on the cheek greeting as that is fairly known as a casual greeting in cultures.
From being in the closet one knows the difference between doing activities with an open FB and closetting the relationship side of things. There is a world of difference in behaviors. Or, as Agent Cooper would have put it, "How long have you been seeing Emily?"
The kiss obviously wasn't a peck on the cheek greeting as that is fairly known as a casual greeting in cultures.
34
The point is not whether there's hope for Mamma, although I've known people capable of being polite to the point of almost cordial for hours at a time before complete turnarounds into the most astounding bigotry the moment they have privacy. But Mr Savage has good reason for doubling and quadrupling on this point, however much it makes me cramp.
Now that I've fulfilled my Gracious Quota for the month, this seems a rotten, or at least highly thoughtless, thing to do to poor Emily. Perhpas the LW has undisclosed knowledge that Emily can be thrown in at the deep end without asking permission or advance warning, but the LW's attitude towards Emily, though containing affection, seems cavalier.
As a side point, this letter strikes me as useful for setting a standard for Presumption. Here, while we do have to presume that the LW is a woman, this letter would seem to meet the standard of the presumption being Beyond Reasonable Doubt. I much prefer, especially in cases of orientation, the BRD standard as opposed to the Preponderance of the Evidence standard that some people tend to use or think desirable, though in some ways that's more irritating than when it's a complete tossup.
Now that I've fulfilled my Gracious Quota for the month, this seems a rotten, or at least highly thoughtless, thing to do to poor Emily. Perhpas the LW has undisclosed knowledge that Emily can be thrown in at the deep end without asking permission or advance warning, but the LW's attitude towards Emily, though containing affection, seems cavalier.
As a side point, this letter strikes me as useful for setting a standard for Presumption. Here, while we do have to presume that the LW is a woman, this letter would seem to meet the standard of the presumption being Beyond Reasonable Doubt. I much prefer, especially in cases of orientation, the BRD standard as opposed to the Preponderance of the Evidence standard that some people tend to use or think desirable, though in some ways that's more irritating than when it's a complete tossup.
35
You know the kind of person who throws another something, knowing that the person to whom they are throwing is a shitty catch it will drop it and break it (hilarity ensues!). That's this LW. This lunch was, from the get-go, designed to make mom feel like an ass and provoke a reaction which the LW could complain about and feel superior about.
What was it that Savage said in another context? Being "X" doesn't give you a "get out of being human free card"? Mom may have been almost a bitch. But she was set up for this and to my experienced and cynical eye it's obvious. I'm not saying mom was right or justified, but this was a shit-test from the get-go, one which she could only fail. This was all about making mom upset ... again .. at how Different! her daughter is. I get the impression that her mother's slow adjustment to the LW's lifestyle was pissing off the LW: not the slow part, the adjustment part. Time to stir the shit again.
Gee, what if the LW had actually helped with the mother's total lack of knowledge at the beginning, instead of shoving her face into a social situation she didn't have any precedent for or couldn't handle? Maybe mom wouldn't have reacted so badly. And double-triple-quadruple shame on LW for using Emily for this. That was crass and not the act of a friend. Having trans friends does not, weirdly enough, give you the right to use them to show just what a bitch your mom can be when you sandbag her.
People are entitled to help when they transition, whether from one gender to another or from bigoted to a more accepting worldview. The LW breached Wheaton's Law, and did it with glee: she was a dick.
What was it that Savage said in another context? Being "X" doesn't give you a "get out of being human free card"? Mom may have been almost a bitch. But she was set up for this and to my experienced and cynical eye it's obvious. I'm not saying mom was right or justified, but this was a shit-test from the get-go, one which she could only fail. This was all about making mom upset ... again .. at how Different! her daughter is. I get the impression that her mother's slow adjustment to the LW's lifestyle was pissing off the LW: not the slow part, the adjustment part. Time to stir the shit again.
Gee, what if the LW had actually helped with the mother's total lack of knowledge at the beginning, instead of shoving her face into a social situation she didn't have any precedent for or couldn't handle? Maybe mom wouldn't have reacted so badly. And double-triple-quadruple shame on LW for using Emily for this. That was crass and not the act of a friend. Having trans friends does not, weirdly enough, give you the right to use them to show just what a bitch your mom can be when you sandbag her.
People are entitled to help when they transition, whether from one gender to another or from bigoted to a more accepting worldview. The LW breached Wheaton's Law, and did it with glee: she was a dick.
36
Quoth @29
My favorite example is this image of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie from when they were promoting "Mr. and Mrs. Smith" and pretending they hadn't hooked up. Anyone looking at that photo immediately knows the two are fucking, despite both of them pretending that they aren't. It's all in the body language.
If an Oscar-winning actress and an Oscar-nominating actor aren't convincing in the role of "people who are not fucking each other," what makes you think us mere mortals fare any better?
Here's the news: it's entirely possible (I've done it) to introduce a T friend to a family member without the immediate assumption that one is fucking (or being fucked by) said T person.You've completely missed the point. Nobody is calling KID out for introducing a trans-woman to her mother; they're calling her out for introducing a fuck buddy to her mother. Of course it's entirely possible to introduce a platonic friend to family members without them assuming you're fucking-- because you're not fucking. It's a tad harder to do that when you are fucking. You're not nearly as discrete as you think you are.
My favorite example is this image of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie from when they were promoting "Mr. and Mrs. Smith" and pretending they hadn't hooked up. Anyone looking at that photo immediately knows the two are fucking, despite both of them pretending that they aren't. It's all in the body language.
If an Oscar-winning actress and an Oscar-nominating actor aren't convincing in the role of "people who are not fucking each other," what makes you think us mere mortals fare any better?
37
Seriously, this mom came to terms "pretty well" with her daughter being monogamish, bi, and selling her panties, and everyone here is calling her NOT sex friendly or kink friendly?? My mom would die a thousand deaths if I presented her with such notions, and I doubt she's even considered that people might sell their panties ever! Regardless of this situation, a dicey setup at best for which we don't have all the information, this mom sounds pretty open minded to me, albeit very snoopy!
38
I wrote my post, then read the other responses. LW KID, as you read them too, think about this: this blog is one of the most kink-, poly-, trans- and alternative-friendly places on the internet, and even here a very large proportion of the folks are of the opinion that your behaviour was not only ill-judged, but probably ill-intentioned, not only rude but assholish.
I think that you owe both Emily and your mother a Mongo-sized apology. But you may feel more comfortable feeling oh-so superior. You seem very good at that.
I think that you owe both Emily and your mother a Mongo-sized apology. But you may feel more comfortable feeling oh-so superior. You seem very good at that.
39
"Produce a more tolerant society" =/= murder tact. Indeed, the latter is tool to achieve the former.
Just sayin'.
Just sayin'.
40
To the person who asked about how we draw the conclusion that the writer is female.
In addition to our gut-calls (which are suprisingly accurate, thank you Bayesian thinking), there are these two facts: 1. Even with the gender specific language removed ("my husband", etc), gender genie rates this at about 7 out of 10 for female. 2. I have never known a straight or gay man to provoke a scene with his mother over lunch, in a public place. Picking a public place for drama of any kind is not an exclusively female endeavour, but it almost exclusively so; men generally prefer their miserable or embarrassing or infuriating or potentially disastrous interpersonal arguments to be behind closed doors.
In addition to our gut-calls (which are suprisingly accurate, thank you Bayesian thinking), there are these two facts: 1. Even with the gender specific language removed ("my husband", etc), gender genie rates this at about 7 out of 10 for female. 2. I have never known a straight or gay man to provoke a scene with his mother over lunch, in a public place. Picking a public place for drama of any kind is not an exclusively female endeavour, but it almost exclusively so; men generally prefer their miserable or embarrassing or infuriating or potentially disastrous interpersonal arguments to be behind closed doors.
41
I agree with everyone who said that the LW was baiting her mother, and using poor Emily in the process.
But one thing I don't think anyone has brought up yet: Even if the LW insisted on introducing these people, how hard would it have been to say to mom beforehand, "Hey, the person you're meeting is transgendered and prefers female pronouns. If you're not okay with that, then you two shouldn't meet." And say to Emily, "My mom has only recently come to terms with me being bi, kinky, blah blah blah, so let's be discreet at this lunch about the fact that we're fucking. Also, she's never met a trans person, so there may be some slips of decorum."
Just another sign that the LW was doing everything she could to make this meeting as dramatic as possible.
But one thing I don't think anyone has brought up yet: Even if the LW insisted on introducing these people, how hard would it have been to say to mom beforehand, "Hey, the person you're meeting is transgendered and prefers female pronouns. If you're not okay with that, then you two shouldn't meet." And say to Emily, "My mom has only recently come to terms with me being bi, kinky, blah blah blah, so let's be discreet at this lunch about the fact that we're fucking. Also, she's never met a trans person, so there may be some slips of decorum."
Just another sign that the LW was doing everything she could to make this meeting as dramatic as possible.
43
I am not sure why the friend couldn't have done something else while the LW spent a few hours with her mom. It sounds like the friend went somewhere else AFTER the lunch, when the mother broke out the vitriol and "it".
If the LW truly wants her mom to become open minded, she will have to drop these tactics, which at worst might be childish revenge for the snooping (as others have pointed out). At best, they show a profound lack of reflection. If she had given her mother forewarning about the trans friend (and perhaps not introducing them at a hitherto private lunch!), and asked the friend to tone down the PDA, things might have gone a lot better.
If the LW truly wants her mom to become open minded, she will have to drop these tactics, which at worst might be childish revenge for the snooping (as others have pointed out). At best, they show a profound lack of reflection. If she had given her mother forewarning about the trans friend (and perhaps not introducing them at a hitherto private lunch!), and asked the friend to tone down the PDA, things might have gone a lot better.
44
@41:
I agree.
Also, I just don't get why LW gives so much information about their sex life to mom.
@vennominon and @ seeker:
I first went on the presumption LW is female. Then I disagreed with seeker that "my husband" is gender specific and went back to look at the letter. And I realised that "(The husband and I are both bi.)" would make even more sense if they were two men, as opposed to "I am bi" if LW is a woman.
However, "led Mom to discover I'm bi, kinky, in a "monogamish" marriage, and that I sell my panties to fetishists online" makes me think LW is female. If LW was a man married to a man, I think the mother would have been less shocked about the monogamish and kinky aspects (yes, that's just a guess).
And I have never heard about guys selling their "panties" (activity as well as choice of word) (but please enlighten me if I am just completely uneducated about this topic).
I agree.
Also, I just don't get why LW gives so much information about their sex life to mom.
@vennominon and @ seeker:
I first went on the presumption LW is female. Then I disagreed with seeker that "my husband" is gender specific and went back to look at the letter. And I realised that "(The husband and I are both bi.)" would make even more sense if they were two men, as opposed to "I am bi" if LW is a woman.
However, "led Mom to discover I'm bi, kinky, in a "monogamish" marriage, and that I sell my panties to fetishists online" makes me think LW is female. If LW was a man married to a man, I think the mother would have been less shocked about the monogamish and kinky aspects (yes, that's just a guess).
And I have never heard about guys selling their "panties" (activity as well as choice of word) (but please enlighten me if I am just completely uneducated about this topic).
45
@40, your logic of women preferring public drama, is sexist bullshit.
Here's a better train of Holmesian thought: since the bi-ness was discovered by snooping, it must stand to reason that the LW is the wife to her husband. Otherwise, the mother would already have known her child was gay since the snooping occurred after the marriage ("discover I'm bi ... in a "monogamish" marriage). And if it was true that the LW was a gay male, presumably being bi would not have been noteworthy, in fact, it would have been far more likely a gay man might claim falsely to be bi, while coming out, as Dan has pointed out. If a man were bi, I don't see why he would claim to only be gay to his parents, given societal pressure to be straight.
As additional evidence, it sounds like the couple were looking for a female third -- such Emily mentions to the couple of her being "male down there", as though it might have been a potential dealbreaker. To my knowledge, I don't think that many gay men or couples would be looking for a female third, at least given how squicked out Dan is by all things female! Dan has often driven home the fact that liking transwomen, even if they do not go reassignment surgery, is a sign you like women, not men.
Here's a better train of Holmesian thought: since the bi-ness was discovered by snooping, it must stand to reason that the LW is the wife to her husband. Otherwise, the mother would already have known her child was gay since the snooping occurred after the marriage ("discover I'm bi ... in a "monogamish" marriage). And if it was true that the LW was a gay male, presumably being bi would not have been noteworthy, in fact, it would have been far more likely a gay man might claim falsely to be bi, while coming out, as Dan has pointed out. If a man were bi, I don't see why he would claim to only be gay to his parents, given societal pressure to be straight.
As additional evidence, it sounds like the couple were looking for a female third -- such Emily mentions to the couple of her being "male down there", as though it might have been a potential dealbreaker. To my knowledge, I don't think that many gay men or couples would be looking for a female third, at least given how squicked out Dan is by all things female! Dan has often driven home the fact that liking transwomen, even if they do not go reassignment surgery, is a sign you like women, not men.
46
The first time meeting a trans person (or cross dresser) is often awkward. The first time I rang up groceries for a woman who had previously been a man, I stammered uncontrollably due my inability to get the thought out of my mind "did this person have their penis cut off to become a woman?" The second time I ran into this person, I apologized for my previous actions and wanted them to know they were welcome at our store.
If meeting Emily was KID's mom's first introduction to a trans person, then she not only had the awkwardness a first time meeting, she also likely had all kinds of awkward thoughts about Emily and KID fucking each other.
KID, ask your mother if Emily was the first trans person she met. If so, take a soft approach to helping your mother accept trans people. If she was alternating between "he," "she" and "it," that (to me) implies awkwardness as opposed to trans-phobia. Every trans-phobic person I have known referred to transsexuals as the gender they were born, not the gender they identify as. Hopefully, this can be smoothed over and there will be one more trans accepting person in the world.
If meeting Emily was KID's mom's first introduction to a trans person, then she not only had the awkwardness a first time meeting, she also likely had all kinds of awkward thoughts about Emily and KID fucking each other.
KID, ask your mother if Emily was the first trans person she met. If so, take a soft approach to helping your mother accept trans people. If she was alternating between "he," "she" and "it," that (to me) implies awkwardness as opposed to trans-phobia. Every trans-phobic person I have known referred to transsexuals as the gender they were born, not the gender they identify as. Hopefully, this can be smoothed over and there will be one more trans accepting person in the world.
47
Seriously, though, even if you suspected your mom still harbored transphobic attitudes - and regardless of her verbal slips, given the context I do not regard this incident as proof of anything more than her being somewhat ignorant and wholly taken aback - this was absolutely not the way to bring it up.
I mean, what the fuck, KID? Way to use your friend/fuckbuddy as a weapon against your mom. You made two people who trusted you uncomfortable and angry for the price of one! I hope you're fucking proud of yourself.
I mean, what the fuck, KID? Way to use your friend/fuckbuddy as a weapon against your mom. You made two people who trusted you uncomfortable and angry for the price of one! I hope you're fucking proud of yourself.
48
No fuckbuddy will ever meet my mom. EVER. These are two worlds that will never collide. I can't imagine doing that to EITHER person. Yeesh. Badly done.
49
For a moment I was also wondering if KID was first-generation American. Somethink about the grammar (but since English is my second language I might not be a good judge of that).
If mom had a different native language the "it" might not be as offensive as it appears to native English speakers. E.g., in German the grammatical gender of girl "Mädchen" is neutral.
If mom had a different native language the "it" might not be as offensive as it appears to native English speakers. E.g., in German the grammatical gender of girl "Mädchen" is neutral.
50
In general, parents and children do not wish to know about one another's sex lives.
It's ok to respect that boundary.
It's ok to respect that boundary.
51
@40, your logic of women preferring public drama, is sexist bullshit.I didn't say that women prefer public drama. I said that if somebody provokes public drama then it's almost always a female thing. Different messages entirely.
52
I'm with 11; when I was doing a lot of 'dating', Mom said, "I only want to meet them when you're serious about them." So it does seem pushy to foist your lover of the moment on your mother (particularly when you're married). After all, you could have just told Mom that you already had lunch plans and you'd catch up with her another day. But you didn't. Hmmm.
54
@40: " I have never known a straight or gay man to provoke a scene with his mother over lunch, in a public place." OK Mr. Bayes: your sample size is clearly really small. If you actually think this is a strictly female phenomenon, then your gender bias is coloring the way you view the world so much that apparently most of what actually happens around you goes by completely unnoticed.
55
If it turns out your mom is upset about you being alpha-dogged by a dude who wears a dress because he lets his indulgent-nature get in the way of caring what others think, you can always counter that you get-off on Emily being evaluated by the public, only by his association to you. Let your mom know that you're seen with a dude in a dress not because he's in control, but because you are.
Our inherent fagginess displays itself most before our sex-drive for straight sex kicks-in, and after it wanes. If your mom is at a stage where straight sex is becoming more baffling to her, then it only makes sense she might find a dude in a dress threatening. So, yeah, she's going to need some guidance to seeing that you hanging out with Emily is more about you being in control than you being controlled.
Our inherent fagginess displays itself most before our sex-drive for straight sex kicks-in, and after it wanes. If your mom is at a stage where straight sex is becoming more baffling to her, then it only makes sense she might find a dude in a dress threatening. So, yeah, she's going to need some guidance to seeing that you hanging out with Emily is more about you being in control than you being controlled.
56
@ 49 - well, presumably if that were the case, KID would be aware of it. Though given the level of "Stir up drama? Moi?" in this letter, I wouldn't put it past her to leave that tidbit out.
I agree with the majority here that Mom's fumbling with pronouns is probably more awkwardness and unawareness than deliberate trans phobia, though there is probably some of that too. Most people, especially most older people, have never met a trans person to their knowledge. Through most of their life, the very idea has been a subject for nervous giggles and stupid jokes. This isn't to give them a pass for bad behaviour, but to ask for a little time and space to get on board.
I agree with the majority here that Mom's fumbling with pronouns is probably more awkwardness and unawareness than deliberate trans phobia, though there is probably some of that too. Most people, especially most older people, have never met a trans person to their knowledge. Through most of their life, the very idea has been a subject for nervous giggles and stupid jokes. This isn't to give them a pass for bad behaviour, but to ask for a little time and space to get on board.
57
@29 "Affectionate" is a common euphemism for "engages in PDAs." KID says that her mother was "shocked" when the friend "kissed her goodbye." It is from these things that I infer that the friend performed some act, probably an on-the-mouth kiss, that was overtly romantic. Again, this is inference, not projection.
No, we can't be 100% sure whether the kiss was a peck on the cheek or a tongue kiss, but we can be very confident that this friend was NOT tipped off to tone it down in front of the mother.
No, we can't be 100% sure whether the kiss was a peck on the cheek or a tongue kiss, but we can be very confident that this friend was NOT tipped off to tone it down in front of the mother.
58
@29, the LW says that her friend was affectionate and kissed her. Considering her mom knew that she was in a monogamish relationship, it's a pretty safe assumption they were FB's (and like others have said, FB's aren't nearly as coy as they think they are).
Anyway, I'm in the don't-unexpectedly-spring-an-FB-on-your-mom camp. Sure her mom should try to update her transphobic views; but the means for accomplishing that don't involve surprising her mom with an affectionate kiss at lunch, which the mom thought was going to be a one-on-one affair.
That said, if the daughter truly wants to smooth things over, she should apologize first because she committed the first wrong; and then she should have a calm rational discussion about her mom's comments.
Anyway, I'm in the don't-unexpectedly-spring-an-FB-on-your-mom camp. Sure her mom should try to update her transphobic views; but the means for accomplishing that don't involve surprising her mom with an affectionate kiss at lunch, which the mom thought was going to be a one-on-one affair.
That said, if the daughter truly wants to smooth things over, she should apologize first because she committed the first wrong; and then she should have a calm rational discussion about her mom's comments.
59
@ 41: Spot-on. It's very hard to tell from the letter exactly how "affectionate" Emily was, and how discreet the LW was about the fact that Emily was a FB and not just a friend. BUT it's also clear that the LW didn't do anything *prior* to the lunch to diffuse any possible tension caused by introducing her trans FB to her mom. Etiquette fail.
(However, I agree with Dan that the mom could use some gentle schooling about pronouns & trans folks.)
(However, I agree with Dan that the mom could use some gentle schooling about pronouns & trans folks.)
60
Did everyone miss that part in the beginning of the letter where OP said that Emily is a fuck buddy who has also become a "good friend?"
61
Sorry--where did anyone get the impression that KID introduced Emily as a sex partner? She says "I told her mom [sic] I'd be bringing a friend." Not a fuck buddy, a friend. And then Emily kissed KID at the end of lunch, something that 1) wasn't really within KID's control, and 2) doesn't establish that the KID and Emily are fucking.
So basically, 3, 6, 9, 16, and probably others are criticizing KID for a scenario that... never happened.
So basically, 3, 6, 9, 16, and probably others are criticizing KID for a scenario that... never happened.
62
While I agree that she should have tipped Emily off to be a bit more discreet, and Mom off that Emily is trans, and it's pretty clear she was happy to stir up some trouble, either we aren't reading the same letter or some of you need better reading comprehension.
@58 mom did not think it was going to be a one-on-one affair, as she asked if she could bring a friend.
@52 she has been seeing Emily for several years, even if it has been sporadic, so it is possible she was starting to think of her as more than a fb, and possibly serious enough to consider meeting the parents.
@44 it would be relevant that SHE and her husband are both bi, because Emily is female with boy-bits. Obviously she would only need to state her own bisexuality and not her husband's if Emily did not have a penis.
For the parental snooping (@25) I'm assuming, by Occam's razor, something that led to mom discovering all that in one fell swoop, like borrowing her daughter's laptop and finding a fetlife profile logged in.
my $0.02
@58 mom did not think it was going to be a one-on-one affair, as she asked if she could bring a friend.
@52 she has been seeing Emily for several years, even if it has been sporadic, so it is possible she was starting to think of her as more than a fb, and possibly serious enough to consider meeting the parents.
@44 it would be relevant that SHE and her husband are both bi, because Emily is female with boy-bits. Obviously she would only need to state her own bisexuality and not her husband's if Emily did not have a penis.
For the parental snooping (@25) I'm assuming, by Occam's razor, something that led to mom discovering all that in one fell swoop, like borrowing her daughter's laptop and finding a fetlife profile logged in.
my $0.02
63
@25: Well, if Mom found the panty-selling site that specified that the panties come from a bi, kinky, monogamish, married woman - her daughter - then... yes.
64
@51 you seem to have missed the basic point, that however you slice it or phrase it, your argument was sexist.
65
I really wish Dan would stop using words like 'bitch' and 'Fuck you' when talking about parents/grandparents who have clearly made/trying to make a long journey from what they used to strongly believe for many many years. Before congratulating ourselves for being so open-minded, we should compare the extent of path we have had to cross with those crossed by our parents and many would fall miles behind. I know I would. My mother, though not completely at ease with gender issues that she had to face at the age of 50, proved to be much more open-to-logic and sypathetic to other people's right to define themselves. All I had to do is be born after 1980 and watch Philadelphia. I dare you, Dan, to ask yourself how open-minded you'd've been about sexuality if you weren't forced into confronting it... and Stop Using the B-word With the M-word.
Also, clearly the LW was trying to get a rise out of the mom. I remember the odd satisfaction of it from my teenage years when I'd parade male friends to my ever-exasperated mother. Helping her come to terms with my life was never the objective of those occassions. Stop being a teenager, LW.
Also, clearly the LW was trying to get a rise out of the mom. I remember the odd satisfaction of it from my teenage years when I'd parade male friends to my ever-exasperated mother. Helping her come to terms with my life was never the objective of those occassions. Stop being a teenager, LW.
66
@61 No one thinks that KID deliberately introduced Emily as a sex partner, only that she created a situation in which her mom figured it out darn quick.
"Emily, a very affectionate person, she kissed me goodbye when she left, another shock to my mother."
It all comes down to what kind of kiss it was and whether KID visibly kissed back. The mother was shocked. It seems unlikely to me that even someone from the most conservative part of the country would be shocked by a peck on the cheek. An on the mouth kiss between two (presenting) women? More likely. An enthusiastic on-the-mouth kiss? Even more likely.
Kissing back or not would have been within KID's control. That thing where you turn your head so that an intended mouth-kiss lands on your cheek was within KID's control. And if KID had warned Emily about her conservative mother who thinks they're regular, non-sexual friends, then she would have said so in the letter. That was within her control too.
"Emily, a very affectionate person, she kissed me goodbye when she left, another shock to my mother."
It all comes down to what kind of kiss it was and whether KID visibly kissed back. The mother was shocked. It seems unlikely to me that even someone from the most conservative part of the country would be shocked by a peck on the cheek. An on the mouth kiss between two (presenting) women? More likely. An enthusiastic on-the-mouth kiss? Even more likely.
Kissing back or not would have been within KID's control. That thing where you turn your head so that an intended mouth-kiss lands on your cheek was within KID's control. And if KID had warned Emily about her conservative mother who thinks they're regular, non-sexual friends, then she would have said so in the letter. That was within her control too.
67
Looks to me like KID almost wanted to rattle her mother. There's a difference between introducing your family to the idea that not everyone is white and straight, and deliberately screwing with them. Usually that difference has something to do with not being a teenager anymore, but obviously not everyone grows up.
The mum was in the wrong, but KID, that seemed pretty damn childish to me.
The mum was in the wrong, but KID, that seemed pretty damn childish to me.
68
I don't understand the problem that most commenters here have. The attitude strikes me as pretty sex negative. LW introduced her mother to a good friend she has known for a few years not the random hook-up from last night. And even if an extended make out session for goodbye might have indicated more this does not constitute a breach of etiquette. She is out to her mother as monogamish and I see no reason in this case to go back into the closet.
69
@41 Agreed.
@Dan Savage.. Disagree. Not okay to introduce your mother to your fuck buddies. Just not okay. Totally a set-up. Totally not okay.
@Dan Savage.. Disagree. Not okay to introduce your mother to your fuck buddies. Just not okay. Totally a set-up. Totally not okay.
70
I think people are letting Emily off a little easy. Not that Emily asked for advice, but *I* do not have to be warned in a little conversation ahead of time not to kiss my married lover on the mouth in front of her mother.
I’m thinking of Annie Sprinkle’s advice to people thinking about attending her show. “If you are prudish you shouldn’t come because you won’t enjoy yourself.” If the queen of sex positive sex workers is careful to make sure everyone enjoys themselves in their own way, even uptight people, then KID and Emily can be too. “Mom, I’m with one of my kinky friends. I’d love to see you but if you’d be uncomfortable we should schedule another time.”
I’m thinking of Annie Sprinkle’s advice to people thinking about attending her show. “If you are prudish you shouldn’t come because you won’t enjoy yourself.” If the queen of sex positive sex workers is careful to make sure everyone enjoys themselves in their own way, even uptight people, then KID and Emily can be too. “Mom, I’m with one of my kinky friends. I’d love to see you but if you’d be uncomfortable we should schedule another time.”
71
I have to agree with the commenters that say LW was baiting her mother. Sure, LW and Emily are "good friends" and LW told her mom that she was "bringing a friend" to lunch, but I'm sure that Emily didn't just start being an "affectionate person" at lunch. Emily's always been affectionate, and LW is aware. This is just an easy out for LW -- she doesn't have to be affectionate herself, or tell mom anything other than "this is a friend," because she knew that Emily herself would out herself as an FB in the presence of Mom. LW is then absolved of the faux pas of introducing her FB to her mom, and the shitstorm can begin.
72
@9 and @21: I completely agree! Usually I find Dan's answers spot on but this one bothers me. Mothers grew up in a different era. It's not their fault. They simply have a completely different view on life after so many years surrounded by heterosexual-married-with-children people. After a life in way different social circles than a bi-in-an-open-relationship-daughter. To just assume that your mother would be okay with a flagrant unannounced social no-no (@9 once again) or that your mother MUST ADAPT... well I can see where the pole-remark came from.
If your mother's views could move towards yours over the years, maybe you could try to give her the same courtesy?
If your mother's views could move towards yours over the years, maybe you could try to give her the same courtesy?
73
i know you people live in a HUGE country, and that might make things different, but.... where i live, parents have to get used to the fact that their kid's have friends, and um-friends, and sex-lives... and kid's have to get used to the fact that they can't keep their friends/sex-lives and their parents forever-separate... and people just get over it. no big deal. seriously?? why is this a problem?
74
Yeah, I don't kiss lovers in front of their parents on the first meeting. No matter how slight this kiss was, that's just uncomfortable for everyone. Once I feel pretty familiar and accepted into the family, then maybe its ok to have little moments once in a while.
75
@41 Yes.
I mostly agree with Dan's response, but he needed to toss in a paragraph chiding the LW. An exhibitionist inappropriately incorporates innocent bystanders into their sex life--this drama-loving LW strikes me as the female equivalent of a sleazy dude who gets off on flashing his junk.
Introducing Mom to a fuck buddy, unexpectedly and without warning at this lunch, showed poor judgment, poor taste and poor understanding of boundaries, and the LW needed to be told that.
I mostly agree with Dan's response, but he needed to toss in a paragraph chiding the LW. An exhibitionist inappropriately incorporates innocent bystanders into their sex life--this drama-loving LW strikes me as the female equivalent of a sleazy dude who gets off on flashing his junk.
Introducing Mom to a fuck buddy, unexpectedly and without warning at this lunch, showed poor judgment, poor taste and poor understanding of boundaries, and the LW needed to be told that.
76
For the record: WHY would you do this to your mom? Or why would you do it to Emily? I'm with the others who say yes, you shouldn't have brought Emily to the lunch! Leave your parents out of your sex life!
77
but she's a friend! just one who she happens to sometimes have sex with. there was no indication that that aspect of the relationship was even discussed with the parent. in any case, it's irrelevant. why would you try to segment your life, and keep your friends and family separate? that's kinda creepy / mentally unhealthy.
78
@59: Bingo.
@61: THANK you.
Others: I stand by my original statement that WAY too many of the responses here assumed facts not in evidence, and threw interpretations on the whole scene that had absolutely NOTHING to do with anything described in the letter. ("She must have been really obvious that they were fucking because Brangelina!" SRSLY!?)
Dan called it almost exactly right on this one, I think. Dick move by KID to Emily. Somewhat less dick move by KID to Mom, which is where I disagree with Dan. Happily, KID seems to have sorted it out on both sides, which was kinda the point of the exercise.
@61: THANK you.
Others: I stand by my original statement that WAY too many of the responses here assumed facts not in evidence, and threw interpretations on the whole scene that had absolutely NOTHING to do with anything described in the letter. ("She must have been really obvious that they were fucking because Brangelina!" SRSLY!?)
Dan called it almost exactly right on this one, I think. Dick move by KID to Emily. Somewhat less dick move by KID to Mom, which is where I disagree with Dan. Happily, KID seems to have sorted it out on both sides, which was kinda the point of the exercise.
79
It is natural for a daughter to introduce her mother to a "good friend," especially if she thinks they will enjoy meeting each other. But I think introducing a parent to a sex partner has deep implications that KID treated too lightly (unless she introduces a new FB to her mom on a regular basis). Meeting someone their child is sleeping with triggers a lot of natural protectiveness and scrutiny over whether the person is a suitable mate and even potential family member. Hence the typical delay that many commenters feel is suitable before introducing a date to parents. Parents need to respect their adult children's choices - and not be bigots - but the protective instinct is still there.
"Flaunting" an open relationship, in this case by engaging in some PDA with Emily, may be something that society needs to get over, like those bigots who are "ok with gay people unless they flaunt it." But it's still inconsiderate to spring the situation upon mom without warning.
"Flaunting" an open relationship, in this case by engaging in some PDA with Emily, may be something that society needs to get over, like those bigots who are "ok with gay people unless they flaunt it." But it's still inconsiderate to spring the situation upon mom without warning.
82
@81, re@36. understood. none the less, there is a huge difference between 'friend' or even 'um-friend', and 'fuck-buddy'. and there is no reason why people will know who you're fucking, unless you tell them. unless you're really stupid. the body language thing is romanticism, not just sex between friends.
and even if you _think_ you know who is fucking who... generally it's polite to not point it out. cos, it's none of your business. and if it's your kid, but they're an adult... that still applies. if that person becomes a 'girlfriend' or similar, they can let you know.
_and_ she said 'friend'. so everything else is assumption. the mother wasn't freaking about them being lovers, she was freaking about the gender-stuff.
and even if you _think_ you know who is fucking who... generally it's polite to not point it out. cos, it's none of your business. and if it's your kid, but they're an adult... that still applies. if that person becomes a 'girlfriend' or similar, they can let you know.
_and_ she said 'friend'. so everything else is assumption. the mother wasn't freaking about them being lovers, she was freaking about the gender-stuff.
83
@78 and others saying she's a good friend and wasn't introduced as a fuck buddy: You're right. And you're also right that introducing a good friend to your mother is very normal. But the number of things that make this situation fraught is the problem. Introducing your good friend who happens to be your fuck buddy and also happens to be extremely affectionate (which reads as a pretty laden euphemism if you ask me) to a mother who is squeamish about the fact that you're bi, kinky and monogamish is not the same as simply introducing a good friend (even one you've slept with) to your mom.
Unless KID is completely oblivious, she knew that she was bringing her mom and Emily into a mine field. And, as I said before, she didn't take the simple step of talking to both of them beforehand to make sure that everyone was as informed as possible going in. I stand by my guess that KID was begging for drama.
And, I should say that KID's mom isn't off the hook for saying transphobic things. But it seems as though her bad reaction could have been tempered if KID hadn't set her up for failure in the first place.
Unless KID is completely oblivious, she knew that she was bringing her mom and Emily into a mine field. And, as I said before, she didn't take the simple step of talking to both of them beforehand to make sure that everyone was as informed as possible going in. I stand by my guess that KID was begging for drama.
And, I should say that KID's mom isn't off the hook for saying transphobic things. But it seems as though her bad reaction could have been tempered if KID hadn't set her up for failure in the first place.
84
@82 No, she was ALSO freaking out about the lover stuff. "Emily, a very affectionate person, she kissed me goodbye when she left, another shock to my mother." Mothers don't shock with pecks to the cheek. I think she could have dealt with either an affectionate FWB/FB situation or a trans situation separately. Each is a shock to her world view. One doesn't go through change easily. One shock to the system at a time kiddies.
85
Quote @82:
I'm not sure what you mean by "romanticism," but the "body language thing" relates to wanting to fuck the other person, not having romantic notions about the person. And what's the point of having a fuckbuddy if you don't really want to fuck them?
@81, re@36. understood. none the less, there is a huge difference between 'friend' or even 'um-friend', and 'fuck-buddy'. and there is no reason why people will know who you're fucking, unless you tell them. unless you're really stupid. the body language thing is romanticism, not just sex between friends.Like, say, by engaging in PDA right in front of them?
I'm not sure what you mean by "romanticism," but the "body language thing" relates to wanting to fuck the other person, not having romantic notions about the person. And what's the point of having a fuckbuddy if you don't really want to fuck them?
86
@78: "assumed facts not in evidence"? Lemme guess... law student? Rookie lawyer?
Here's the deal counselor: Intelligent people can make reasonable assumptions about unstated facts. It's called "reading between the lines," or "circumstantial evidence" in legalese. You did the same thing: the "facts in evidence" only show that mom fumbled with pronouns. From that, you inferred that she was uncomfortable with transpersons.
It's not a good idea to hold others to an "evidentiary standard" that you yourself fail to meet.
Here's the deal counselor: Intelligent people can make reasonable assumptions about unstated facts. It's called "reading between the lines," or "circumstantial evidence" in legalese. You did the same thing: the "facts in evidence" only show that mom fumbled with pronouns. From that, you inferred that she was uncomfortable with transpersons.
It's not a good idea to hold others to an "evidentiary standard" that you yourself fail to meet.
87
@28 how can you possibly know that you can tell "8/10" times? do you stalk every person you pass on the street until they get naked? confirmation bias much?
88
@77: " it's irrelevant. why would you try to segment your life, and keep your friends and family separate? that's kinda creepy / mentally unhealthy."
On the contrary, some people find it healthier to not introduce every single person they're sleeping with (and certainly not the "other" in the relationship") to their family.
On the contrary, some people find it healthier to not introduce every single person they're sleeping with (and certainly not the "other" in the relationship") to their family.
89
@86: Wrong, and wrong. But sufficient legal training to know the difference between evidence (what was in the letter), reasonable inference (what Dan and at least some of us got out of what was in the letter), and Making Shit Up. Byee.
90
> @28 how can you possibly know that you can tell "8/10" times? do you stalk every person you pass on the street until they get naked? confirmation bias much?
I'm fairly active at the local LGBT centers and events in the community. I've noticed among participants that the vast majority of male to female trannies look like grotesquely awful. I swear if they were straight, cisgendered men they'd be condemned for portraying misogynistic caricatures of women.
I'm fairly active at the local LGBT centers and events in the community. I've noticed among participants that the vast majority of male to female trannies look like grotesquely awful. I swear if they were straight, cisgendered men they'd be condemned for portraying misogynistic caricatures of women.
91
> @28 how can you possibly know that you can tell "8/10" times? do you stalk every person you pass on the street until they get naked? confirmation bias much?
I'm fairly active at the local LGBT centers and events in the community. I've noticed among participants that the vast majority of male to female trannies look like grotesquely awful. I swear if they were straight, cisgendered men they'd be condemned for portraying misogynistic caricatures of women.
I'm fairly active at the local LGBT centers and events in the community. I've noticed among participants that the vast majority of male to female trannies look like grotesquely awful. I swear if they were straight, cisgendered men they'd be condemned for portraying misogynistic caricatures of women.
92
> @28 how can you possibly know that you can tell "8/10" times? do you stalk every person you pass on the street until they get naked? confirmation bias much?
I'm fairly active at the local LGBT centers and events in the community. I've noticed among participants that the vast majority of male to female trannies look like grotesquely awful. I swear if they were straight, cisgendered men they'd be condemned for portraying misogynistic caricatures of women.
I'm fairly active at the local LGBT centers and events in the community. I've noticed among participants that the vast majority of male to female trannies look like grotesquely awful. I swear if they were straight, cisgendered men they'd be condemned for portraying misogynistic caricatures of women.
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