Monday, May 14, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Hope Not Nope
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:53 PM
How many guys nowadays have only slept with one woman all their lives? I was my boyfriend's first for a lot of things - all he did before was make out, some fondling, and fingered a girl once. He does watch porn (as do all guys, so he tells me), which makes me wonder if he thinks he's missing out by not having had sex with other girls. We've talked about this before, and he's admitted to being curious about what sex with other girls would be like, again, like all other guys, according to him. But he said he'd never do it since it would mean losing me.
I love him. Do I owe it to him to let him satisfy his curiosity and experiment with other women? Or do I go with the 'well, who knows how long this'll last, I'm sure he'll have plenty of time for other women when this goes south' route? It makes me physically ill to think of other women touching him, even though I'm the one in the relationship who has had partners before him. I'm willing to try most things once (and some things multiple times), but I can't fathom ever being okay with him having sex with someone else. Am I being unfair and selfish, or is my jealousy normal?
Long-Time Reader
My response after the jump...
······················
According to science—science!—twenty percent of adult men have had just one sexual partner. It's an old stat; follow the link and you'll see it's from a study conducted way, way back in 1996. But kids today—kids today!—are waiting longer to have sex, they're having fewer sexual partners, and they're less likely to get pregnant than at any time in history. So it's possible that guys who've only slept with one girl are somewhat less rare today than they were way, way back in the '90s. (Abstinence backers have sought to claim credit for these developments. But teen pregnancy rates are higher in states with abstinence-only sex "education" and studies have found that teenagers who get good, comprehensive sex ed are likelier to wait to start having sex. Salon's Tracy Clark-Flory wrote a wonderful piece calling bullshit on the claims of abstinence "education" supporters.)
Two other points...
If your boyfriend is willing to go without having sex with other women to be with you, LTR, take the fucking compliment and stop standing around wringing your hands worrying about whether you're being "unfair" to him. Let him make up his own mind and be gracious enough to take "yes" for an answer. In other words: If a strictly monogamous commitment is the price he's willing to pay to ride this ride—you being the ride—let him fuckin' pay it. And, yeah, if you two stay together forever your boyfriend may go to his grave never knowing what it's like to have sex with another women. But I'm probably gonna go to my grave never knowing what it's like to have a threeway with Brad Pitt and Keanu Reeves.
Probably.
And that's okay. Because no one gets everything he wants.
Finally, swingers websites, sex clubs, and hotel rooms with three people fucking in them are full of people who at one point in their lives couldn't "fathom ever being okay with" their partners having sex with someone else. Just because you feel this way now, LTR, doesn't mean you'll feel this way always. A day may come when you'll be okay with your boyfriend—perhaps your husband by then—sleeping with someone else. So allow your boyfriend to live in hope and not, you know, nope. Because you never know.
3
He's your BOYFRIEND, so the "I'm sure he'll have plenty of time for other women when this thing goes south..." is correct. Just make sure you follow the campsite rule and make him a better lover.
4
"Hope not nope" sounds uncomfortably close to "Maybe I'll be brave enough to try a threesome after there's a ring on my finger and babies in my house." To my jaded ears, anyway.
5
I hope she just stops thinking. Thinking is going to get her in trouble. Give him what he likes and he won't want anyone else. Start nagging and whining about bullshit and he'll split.
6
My husband has slept with only one woman (me), and not because we held onto some sort of abstinence-until-marriage ideal. We just dated in our teens and kinda stuck on each other. He's been fucking me and only me for over 10 years, and I've managed to make him quite happy (he still brags about it!). That said, 10+ years of being with someone can really foster a sense of security (assuming the relationship's in good standing). I was super jealous when we were young, but now I'd be okay--even aroused--by the thought of him being with another woman. So, I agree 100% with Dan--people can be happy with one partner, and people can change their boundaries over time. Keep an open mind and a warm bed.
8
Why is it that I imagine the conversation going something like this:
"So, you've never slept with anyone else?"
"Nope."
"So, do you want to sleep with anybody else?"
"Well, I've been curious...but, I love you so I don't need anybody else."
To Dan: "Should I let him sleep with anybody else, or am I a jealous woman for letting him do that?"
...
In other words, I imagine her bringing up the thought, then creating an issue out of it, while the dude doesn't particularly care about it.
"So, you've never slept with anyone else?"
"Nope."
"So, do you want to sleep with anybody else?"
"Well, I've been curious...but, I love you so I don't need anybody else."
To Dan: "Should I let him sleep with anybody else, or am I a jealous woman for letting him do that?"
...
In other words, I imagine her bringing up the thought, then creating an issue out of it, while the dude doesn't particularly care about it.
9
The physically ill part even thinking about another woman touching him is a bit of a warning sign, though. She might want to do a little more self-exploration. Jealousy bad.
10
Either they'll both grow up and work this out in whatever way is best for them - my money's on some kind of non-monogamy - or they'll both grow up and then split up. Either way the growing up is the key ingredient here. Sounds like they both need it.
11
@8 Yeah, it seems like she's trying to take his agency out of the question. Now, if she doesn't believe that he could actually be content just being with her, that's a separate issue (and it's her issue not his).
12
It almost sounds like she's trying to take his agency out of the equation. Now, if she doesn't believe that he can actually be happy just being with her, that's a separate issue (and it's her issue, not his).
14
To expand on that: I have been in this dude's shoes. Like, almost literally. I was with a girl for several years who was my first in every substantive way; we were both too young, but thoroughly convinced we were quite sufficiently mature; and she was seriously, pathologically jealous, in no small part because she was herself a serial cheater. I was also too young and self-absorbed to be in a serious relationship, and therefore no fucking prince, myself.
I was really just enamored of what I had because I'd never had anything like it before, but eventually a guy grows up, and looks around, and leaves behind his shy teenage nerd years. At that point maybe the relationship itself can grow and change to accommodate two people who have themselves hopefully grown and changed, but more likely it can't, and really, shouldn't.
I think both parties here are probably trying to be honest, and they both sound well-meaning and relatively sane, but I just think this is more likely to end in splitsville than not. What are minor curiosities and small, nagging insecurities now stand altogether too great a chance of developing into huge, septic wounds in the relationship.
I'm not sure what to advise them to do. I don't know if there's anything they can do to control where things go from here. There's a chance they could both develop into similar, compatible people if they communicate well and do this together and open-mindedly. I just really worry about the deadly extremes lurking under phrases like "said he'd never do it" or "physically ill to think of other women touching him." Some deep and honest self-examination would do both of them good, and will certainly be necessary for this to become a lasting relationship and not just a (probably painful) learning experience.
More...
I was really just enamored of what I had because I'd never had anything like it before, but eventually a guy grows up, and looks around, and leaves behind his shy teenage nerd years. At that point maybe the relationship itself can grow and change to accommodate two people who have themselves hopefully grown and changed, but more likely it can't, and really, shouldn't.
I think both parties here are probably trying to be honest, and they both sound well-meaning and relatively sane, but I just think this is more likely to end in splitsville than not. What are minor curiosities and small, nagging insecurities now stand altogether too great a chance of developing into huge, septic wounds in the relationship.
I'm not sure what to advise them to do. I don't know if there's anything they can do to control where things go from here. There's a chance they could both develop into similar, compatible people if they communicate well and do this together and open-mindedly. I just really worry about the deadly extremes lurking under phrases like "said he'd never do it" or "physically ill to think of other women touching him." Some deep and honest self-examination would do both of them good, and will certainly be necessary for this to become a lasting relationship and not just a (probably painful) learning experience.
15
The thought of him being with another woman makes her physically ill? And she's been with a bunch of other guys? Hey, bro -- run for your life. You may think she's fun right now, but she's way too crazy for you.
16
I agree with everything except the last bit of advice. By telling her to let him "live in hope" what you're doing in practice is leading her to give him false hope.
Yes maybe she'll change her mind one day, but she may also be entirely monogamous in her attitude forever. She shouldn't tell him "well, you never know, I might change one day!" because that sends the message that you have doubts about your position, which this woman obviously doesn't. If it's not already clear, she should make it clear that non-monogamy is a no-go for her, now and in the forseeable future. That can be re-visited far down the line, but he should live in a headspace that expects monogamy.
Oh and allow me to let out a small frustrated squeek at this berating of her for being strictly monogamous in her attitude. Yes, the idea of him with other guys makes her physically ill, but that doesn't mean she's some controlling asshole rifling through his phone and demanding he no longer speak to his female friends. All it means is that monogamy is important to her, important enough to be a deal-breaker. And being strictly monogamous is perfectly OK, as long as it's consensual. I'm happy and all that we want to be enlightened and promote nonmonogamy as healthy, but shaming in the other direction and pretending that the monogamous are sick, controlling, borderline abusive, is not cool with me.
Yes maybe she'll change her mind one day, but she may also be entirely monogamous in her attitude forever. She shouldn't tell him "well, you never know, I might change one day!" because that sends the message that you have doubts about your position, which this woman obviously doesn't. If it's not already clear, she should make it clear that non-monogamy is a no-go for her, now and in the forseeable future. That can be re-visited far down the line, but he should live in a headspace that expects monogamy.
Oh and allow me to let out a small frustrated squeek at this berating of her for being strictly monogamous in her attitude. Yes, the idea of him with other guys makes her physically ill, but that doesn't mean she's some controlling asshole rifling through his phone and demanding he no longer speak to his female friends. All it means is that monogamy is important to her, important enough to be a deal-breaker. And being strictly monogamous is perfectly OK, as long as it's consensual. I'm happy and all that we want to be enlightened and promote nonmonogamy as healthy, but shaming in the other direction and pretending that the monogamous are sick, controlling, borderline abusive, is not cool with me.
17
So I have been tumbling this around in my head and reading the comments, because it kinda struck a nerve for me, and here's what occurred to me: it sounds like she's really concerned and disbelieving about the idea that someone could settle down and only fuck one person forever.
Doesn't the fact that she seems so much more concerned about it than him seem sort of... strange?
Now, obviously a lot of it is insecurity. Feeling physically ill at the idea of him touching someone else is just a raging fear of abandonment, straight up. Still, I can't help but wonder if she's so worried about his ability to be satisfied with her and her alone because she has a hard time with the idea of settling for just one person herself. How much of this is projection?
Doesn't the fact that she seems so much more concerned about it than him seem sort of... strange?
Now, obviously a lot of it is insecurity. Feeling physically ill at the idea of him touching someone else is just a raging fear of abandonment, straight up. Still, I can't help but wonder if she's so worried about his ability to be satisfied with her and her alone because she has a hard time with the idea of settling for just one person herself. How much of this is projection?
18
@6, 'now I'd be okay--even aroused--by the thought of him being with another woman.'
have you told him?
have you told him?
19
I will never understand this idea of the magical number of lovers (3? 8? 127?) after which you will know what all varieties of sexual experience are like with all people and not be curious about sex with any other people who might appear in the future. It's even weirder when it has the corollary that you then go back to the best sexual match and hope they have waited around for you while you grew up and such.
A: Number 3? I'm baaaaack! Ready to commit to you.
B: Dude(tte), you blew your chance with me four years ago.
A: But you're my best match! Well, okay, I tried number 5. But that stuff about crazy in bed and crazy out was too true.
The bf's and Dan's and many commenters' idea that lack of sexual partner variety is a price many are happy to pay for sex-and-more with someone they deeply care about shouldn't seem revolutionary. And like 6, sometimes you meet the right person early on. You make it work or you don't.
A: Number 3? I'm baaaaack! Ready to commit to you.
B: Dude(tte), you blew your chance with me four years ago.
A: But you're my best match! Well, okay, I tried number 5. But that stuff about crazy in bed and crazy out was too true.
The bf's and Dan's and many commenters' idea that lack of sexual partner variety is a price many are happy to pay for sex-and-more with someone they deeply care about shouldn't seem revolutionary. And like 6, sometimes you meet the right person early on. You make it work or you don't.
20
@18
Jesus Christ, Erica, just stop. Not every person needs/wants to have their partner sleep with other people, and believe it or not, many of us are fulfilled with one at a time.
Stop projecting, your love for self-degradation puts you in the small, small minority. Give it up.
Jesus Christ, Erica, just stop. Not every person needs/wants to have their partner sleep with other people, and believe it or not, many of us are fulfilled with one at a time.
Stop projecting, your love for self-degradation puts you in the small, small minority. Give it up.
21
Jesus, thanks for being so anti-monogamy! It sure does not sound judgmental and condescending!
/sarcasm
Seriously, it's just her being insecure and not thinking that she's enough for him. Probably because of reading comments like yours! You guys have never felt insecure?? She's the one that brought it up, not him! He's probably fine right now!
You know guys, it's okay to be monogamous! It's okay to want that, just like it's okay to want what ever relationship you chose to have (as long as it's safe and consensual of course).
/sarcasm
Seriously, it's just her being insecure and not thinking that she's enough for him. Probably because of reading comments like yours! You guys have never felt insecure?? She's the one that brought it up, not him! He's probably fine right now!
You know guys, it's okay to be monogamous! It's okay to want that, just like it's okay to want what ever relationship you chose to have (as long as it's safe and consensual of course).
22
There's something about that "as do all guys, so he tells me" that makes my skin crawl. I don't think she likes men all that much.
23
If she allowed "hope not nope," then I think she's skirting dangerously close to a bait'n'switch, unless she makes unequivocally clear how small the chances are that she'll actually change her mind.
24
Some people are OK with open relationships, some people want to keep it strictly monogamous. All you have to do is know what your preferences are and be upfront with your partner about them.
If you want to know why the thought of him being with another woman causes such a strong negative reaction, spend some quiet time going over it in your head. Try to puzzle out what exactly about it upsets you so much. Maybe write down notes if it helps your thought process.
If you feel like you want to become more comfortable with the idea, maybe try a little fantasizing or dirty talk with your boyfriend. See if you can take that fear and make some sexy lemonade with it.
If you want to know why the thought of him being with another woman causes such a strong negative reaction, spend some quiet time going over it in your head. Try to puzzle out what exactly about it upsets you so much. Maybe write down notes if it helps your thought process.
If you feel like you want to become more comfortable with the idea, maybe try a little fantasizing or dirty talk with your boyfriend. See if you can take that fear and make some sexy lemonade with it.
25
What's with the random defensive rage at another poster, @20? EricaP was addressing another commenter who DOES think there partner with another person is sexy, at last as a fantasy. I'm personally a fan of monogamy, but when you jump down someone's throat for having a different sexuality than you and tell them they're degrading themselves and/or trying to project their sexuality on everyone around them for asking an innocent question...well, have you ever heard rants by those super homophobes that are obviously closet cases? I think you see where I'm going with this.
26
@15 Why the crazy accusation? She slept with those other guys before they were together. She's being monogamous with him and wants him to do the same in return; you can't accuse her of creating a double standard or something. And frankly, she sounds like she's taking his needs into consideration. Admitting you have feelings of jealously and owning them (like she's doing) isn't a sign of craziness; it's a sign of sanity.
27
I agree with Ms Lilli - The contempt for men instanced in the first paragraph may well be choking the relationship. She strikes me as being undecided between setting up standards so lenient that nobody would cheat and wanting to manoeuvre him into cheating in order to confirm her standard that anyone who watches porn, etc. is GOING TO CHEAT. Thus the concern trolling.
28
26: Yes, I was just going to point that out too: all her extra-relationship encounters were presumably past history, while his hypothetical ones would be while she and he were still together. One is serial monogamy, the other is cheating. Oceans of difference between the two situations, and thus no double standard.
The other things that strikes me is that, based on the wording that she used for his admitting to being curious, that's all he is being: curious, not eager. The whole "like all other men" is for the sake of believability, not begging for a free pass because all men want that. It's not that all men get to sleep around, or even seriously want to negotiate for it, but just an admission that he, like most other men, are still curious. "I'm married, not dead," as the saying goes, and anyone with a lick of sense knows that. If I were to tell my wife that I wasn't even curious about what it would be like to sleep with other women, she would either a) know damned well I was bullshitting her, and wonder what I was trying to hide; or b) think she needed to write to Dan, asking if I had turned gay.
The other things that strikes me is that, based on the wording that she used for his admitting to being curious, that's all he is being: curious, not eager. The whole "like all other men" is for the sake of believability, not begging for a free pass because all men want that. It's not that all men get to sleep around, or even seriously want to negotiate for it, but just an admission that he, like most other men, are still curious. "I'm married, not dead," as the saying goes, and anyone with a lick of sense knows that. If I were to tell my wife that I wasn't even curious about what it would be like to sleep with other women, she would either a) know damned well I was bullshitting her, and wonder what I was trying to hide; or b) think she needed to write to Dan, asking if I had turned gay.
29
Ms Erica - That seems a bit premature. Perhaps she's waiting for him to stop bragging, though that might cut the other way instead. And Ms Persimmon has given no evidence that her husband has any interest in the idea of other women, which might have a good deal to do with whether it's a worthwhile, easy or advisable mention.
30
Plus one on disagreeing with Dan on the last bit of advice. Do not hold out hope to him when it is so obviously false. Aside from it being a lie, he has already agreed that monogamy is the price of admission that he is willing to pay. Holding out a prospect of non-monogamy in the face of the promise that you already got from him sends a confusing message.
31
@22: I don't know if she dislikes men, but it's quite clear that she dislikes porn, and thinks that watching it is going to influence the watcher to cheat. She also seems to think that being curious is the gateway to, possibly even the same thing as, intending to act on that curiosity. Her boyfriend is trying to tell her she is wrong on both counts.
32
@ 30. I agree that the discussion shouldn't be reopened now in the face of the boyfriend's "no, thanks." I'm not convinced that it should never be re-opened ever. I think reviewing and (when necessary) renegotiating the terms of one's commitment every few years is a pretty good idea. And while I would discourage a monogamist (like me!) from saying, "Well, yeah, maybe after X happens I'll be willing to try a threesome/open relationship," I see nothing wrong and much to approve in a mutually agreed, "Definitely not now. Probably not ever." That "probably" allows for the possibility that we will change in ways we don't foresee, without, to my mind, giving undue hope to the variety-seeker who's really looking foreword to that long-delayed threesome. I suspect that it serves the purpose Dan is aiming for - to mute the clang of the marriage-as-prison door.
33
I was basically exactly where you are three years ago. I met an *amazing* but sexually very shy guy and fell madly in love. I was his first girlfriend, etc etc. What helped the most was a lot of talking. We talked about what we wanted to do, what he was curious about, what I'd done, what he'd done... Eventually we decided to be in an open relationship, but here's the kicker - neither of us has taken the opportunity! In the end, just knowing he could was enough. He gets hit on a lot now because of his newfound confidence, he feels sexy, and he doesn't feel like he's missing out on anything because he can always do it, which takes the pressure off immensely. We're very happy and I wish you the same in your relationship!
35
I don't like this LW very much. Her problem isn't being jealous, unfair or selfish (though she is arguably all three), her problem is that she failed to identify the real problem (her inability to believe her boyfriend/inability to take "yes" for an answer).
She better start taking her boyfriend at his word, or her anxiety and insecurity will become the instruments of a self-fulfilling prophecy: she won't lose him because he'll be yearning for vaginal variety, she'll lose him because he'll tire of her neurotic inability to trust him.
She better start taking her boyfriend at his word, or her anxiety and insecurity will become the instruments of a self-fulfilling prophecy: she won't lose him because he'll be yearning for vaginal variety, she'll lose him because he'll tire of her neurotic inability to trust him.
36
Although not as immature as the LW, I can relate to what she's saying. I've dated guys with little sexual experience (and less life experience than I, as well), and even if you're happy, there's a concern that maybe one day, if you continue fucking and loving each other, they'll become somehow resentful of you because you've had more experiences or fucked more people. And all they've got is years with, meh, me. I don't feel that way anymore.
It's irrational and insecure and undermines the partner's ability to make choices for himself, but, I've been there. Sometimes you get caught up worrying about issues that aren't even in front of you because you're projecting how the relationship could end (which of course it will, with that attitude). People do this for any number of reasons, usually subconsciously. I suspect if LW keeps doing and thinking how she does/thinks, the relationship will be over in no time and she won't have to worry anymore.
It's irrational and insecure and undermines the partner's ability to make choices for himself, but, I've been there. Sometimes you get caught up worrying about issues that aren't even in front of you because you're projecting how the relationship could end (which of course it will, with that attitude). People do this for any number of reasons, usually subconsciously. I suspect if LW keeps doing and thinking how she does/thinks, the relationship will be over in no time and she won't have to worry anymore.
38
Hmm. Rather than taking it as an indication that the LW doesn't like men, I read the: 'as all other guys do' thing as meaning that what he was doing made her think maybe he really wanted some variety, but then he said he didn't, that it's just something all guys do. So now she doesn't know what to think, but feels insecure and worried that she's being selfish.
39
What we need is a new word for those people who fret about something that isn't a problem in their relationship, but insist on discussing it as if it were a problem.
40
@25
Because every time someone so much as hints at "thinking about my partner with another person gets me tingly in the panty region," Erica jumps at "OPEN THAT UP NOW."
But frankly, Erica gets off of being degraded by her partner and for the most part, people do not. This forum may be self-selecting for people who do enjoy that sort of thing, but by-and-large opening up a relationship is going to blow that shit up.
I find the thought of my current sleeping with his exes very arousing. When we talk about his past experiences, I get the urge to jump him almost immediately. Do I want to open up the relationship? Fuck no. He doesn't either, despite *gasp* being a man AND being less experienced than I. And before everyone starts thinking that he's just not telling me about what he truly wants, for my sake, we've talked about it, he is ACTUALLY not interested.
Because every time someone so much as hints at "thinking about my partner with another person gets me tingly in the panty region," Erica jumps at "OPEN THAT UP NOW."
But frankly, Erica gets off of being degraded by her partner and for the most part, people do not. This forum may be self-selecting for people who do enjoy that sort of thing, but by-and-large opening up a relationship is going to blow that shit up.
I find the thought of my current sleeping with his exes very arousing. When we talk about his past experiences, I get the urge to jump him almost immediately. Do I want to open up the relationship? Fuck no. He doesn't either, despite *gasp* being a man AND being less experienced than I. And before everyone starts thinking that he's just not telling me about what he truly wants, for my sake, we've talked about it, he is ACTUALLY not interested.
41
pastaefagoli, I don't want to follow EricaP's example, in some ways, but I respect her for figuring out what works for her. She isn't "degraded" by her partner, and throwing that term around in your posts makes it harder to take your points seriously.
43
@41
I don't know what else to call it. If I were in her relationship the way she describes it, I would feel degraded.
Do some (most) men look at women, find them attractive, and lust after them? Yes. I do the same thing with men. But if my partner gave me an open-it-up or I'm hitting the road ultimatum, I'd feel degraded, because our relationship (marriage!? parenting?!) is then worth less than getting a little strange. Fuck that.
But Erica decided to give it a try, and it works for her. Great. This will not work for most people. It just wont. Non-monogamy is fine when negotiated and mutually agreed upon. Coercion (that's what the ultimatum is) is UNCOOL.
But I just don't see why Erica's answer to even an inkling of interest in open relationships is to open it up. For most, that isn't the answer, the answer is to enjoy the fantasies and sexual tension. She's a well regarded commenter, but her experiences do not apply as widely as she thinks.
Also, it's tired and old, at this point.
I don't know what else to call it. If I were in her relationship the way she describes it, I would feel degraded.
Do some (most) men look at women, find them attractive, and lust after them? Yes. I do the same thing with men. But if my partner gave me an open-it-up or I'm hitting the road ultimatum, I'd feel degraded, because our relationship (marriage!? parenting?!) is then worth less than getting a little strange. Fuck that.
But Erica decided to give it a try, and it works for her. Great. This will not work for most people. It just wont. Non-monogamy is fine when negotiated and mutually agreed upon. Coercion (that's what the ultimatum is) is UNCOOL.
But I just don't see why Erica's answer to even an inkling of interest in open relationships is to open it up. For most, that isn't the answer, the answer is to enjoy the fantasies and sexual tension. She's a well regarded commenter, but her experiences do not apply as widely as she thinks.
Also, it's tired and old, at this point.
44
@43 Just to correct the record -- he said he wanted some strange. He never threatened to walk.
By your lights, he was evil for telling me what he wanted. I can see why you think persimmon should keep her fantasies to herself. God forbid people should speak openly to their spouses about what turns them on.
By your lights, he was evil for telling me what he wanted. I can see why you think persimmon should keep her fantasies to herself. God forbid people should speak openly to their spouses about what turns them on.
45
@40: did not seem that Erica was saying, "Open it up" but rather asking if the commenter had spoken about the arousal. In fact, I think she wrote, "have you told him?"
Sounds like you have done EXACTLY that - spoken about it. And you get off on hearing the stories but not of the idea of your partner taking another. And maybe that's what the commentator would find: talking about it gets her hot and that's all either would want or need.
I read Erica's comment and I think, "communication" not "non-monogamy".
Sounds like you have done EXACTLY that - spoken about it. And you get off on hearing the stories but not of the idea of your partner taking another. And maybe that's what the commentator would find: talking about it gets her hot and that's all either would want or need.
I read Erica's comment and I think, "communication" not "non-monogamy".
46
@44
My mistake, the situation was that he was going to get some strange whether you liked it or not, and you were free to walk?
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
My point still stands, that is an ultimatum and is coercive. If my partner told me that the thrill of unfamiliar genitals were more important to him than our marriage, assuming no other real issues, I would feel degraded. Most people would as well. Most people don't get off on being degraded.
Opening up a relationship where both partners aren't 100% enthusiastic and on board is a recipe for disaster in most cases. Why risk a good relationship (which are hard to build) just to be able to fuck a stranger once in a while? Why suggest this?
The *idea* of being able to fuck others is appealing to many, the reality of doing it, not so much.
My mistake, the situation was that he was going to get some strange whether you liked it or not, and you were free to walk?
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
My point still stands, that is an ultimatum and is coercive. If my partner told me that the thrill of unfamiliar genitals were more important to him than our marriage, assuming no other real issues, I would feel degraded. Most people would as well. Most people don't get off on being degraded.
Opening up a relationship where both partners aren't 100% enthusiastic and on board is a recipe for disaster in most cases. Why risk a good relationship (which are hard to build) just to be able to fuck a stranger once in a while? Why suggest this?
The *idea* of being able to fuck others is appealing to many, the reality of doing it, not so much.
47
Jesus fucking christ.
My husband was dying inside. He was terrified to tell me about his needs, because he worried I would leave him. He got brave, and he told me. It took me a couple of weeks, but I dealt. That's the version that seems true today. If I told the story differently when I was struggling with it, well, that's the reality of how marriage works.
Why do you keep harping on me? Can you just get on with your life and leave me the fuck alone? I don't tell anyone to do anything. I've almost vanished from Slog. I won't vanish completely, no matter how much you want me to. Sorry. Fuck the fuckety fuck off. Don't get back on my subject until you hit 45 and you and your partner have both been through midlife crises. Then maybe you'll have more empathy.
My husband was dying inside. He was terrified to tell me about his needs, because he worried I would leave him. He got brave, and he told me. It took me a couple of weeks, but I dealt. That's the version that seems true today. If I told the story differently when I was struggling with it, well, that's the reality of how marriage works.
Why do you keep harping on me? Can you just get on with your life and leave me the fuck alone? I don't tell anyone to do anything. I've almost vanished from Slog. I won't vanish completely, no matter how much you want me to. Sorry. Fuck the fuckety fuck off. Don't get back on my subject until you hit 45 and you and your partner have both been through midlife crises. Then maybe you'll have more empathy.
48
Apologies for language. And for telling pasta to fuck off right after I said I don't tell anyone to do anything. Don't fuck off unless you want to, pasta. If you'd like to keep posting about your disgust for my degrading lifestyle, go right ahead.
49
There are any number of topics of erotica that I find personally entertaining, arousing, even. That doesn't mean that I need to tell my wife about them, let alone give her the idea that I'd like to act on them. (The simple reason for the latter being that I _don't_ want to act on them. Some of them sound downright repulsive to be confronted with in real life -- including that subset of real life called "acting out a fantasy.") She doesn't need to understand and catalogue every last particle of the contents of my skull any more than she needs to be informed every time I need to go pee. There's communication, and then there's logorrhea.
50
Pastafagioli can say what she felt or would feel all day long, but saying you know what most people would feel is arrogant foolishness.
51
Oops. Re: previous post, I'm not implying that Erica's choices on how much to communicate are wrong. Just saying one shouldn't feel _obligated_ to communicate everything.
52
Erica, if you read what I wrote, I said good for you. Good for you if you're happy. All I said was that what works for you is not going to work for most. It will not make most people happy. I used myself as an example and used the word degraded to describe how I would feel if put in your situation.
You don't need to respond to my comments, you certainly shouldn't feel the need to get defensive and aggressive if this situation works for you.
Most people seem to appreciate hearing your perspective on relationships, I find it interesting, but way on the outside of the bell-curve of relationships in society today. I remember your story, and I notice the advice you give to others. I often disagree with it, and thought that in this situation it did not apply.
I'm sorry your husband was dying inside for lack of access to multiple sexual partners. I do not like to believe that monogamy causes most people die inside. I'm the more adventurous of my duo (would like perhaps to have a threesome, or go to a swinger's event and just play with each other) but I gladly give up those things for my partner. If I loved him less, perhaps I wouldn't. Here's to hoping that never happens!
I just wonder why you suggest opening up relationships to so many people, when you yourself have said that you would have preferred a monogamous arrangement? Not all partners will walk away, and some partners that would are not worth keeping.
You don't need to respond to my comments, you certainly shouldn't feel the need to get defensive and aggressive if this situation works for you.
Most people seem to appreciate hearing your perspective on relationships, I find it interesting, but way on the outside of the bell-curve of relationships in society today. I remember your story, and I notice the advice you give to others. I often disagree with it, and thought that in this situation it did not apply.
I'm sorry your husband was dying inside for lack of access to multiple sexual partners. I do not like to believe that monogamy causes most people die inside. I'm the more adventurous of my duo (would like perhaps to have a threesome, or go to a swinger's event and just play with each other) but I gladly give up those things for my partner. If I loved him less, perhaps I wouldn't. Here's to hoping that never happens!
I just wonder why you suggest opening up relationships to so many people, when you yourself have said that you would have preferred a monogamous arrangement? Not all partners will walk away, and some partners that would are not worth keeping.
53
@50
Do you honestly disagree with what I said, or is that not personally how you feel regarding the situation I presented?
Whether or not the majority of people would be 100% comfortable with sharing their partner had they been raised in a society that was permissive of or actively encouraged that behavior is beyond the scope of my argument.
All I'm saying is, as it stands right now, most people would have negative feelings when confronted with a partner's intentions to have sexual relations with others, regardless of their feelings on the matter.
Doesn't that sound right?
Do you honestly disagree with what I said, or is that not personally how you feel regarding the situation I presented?
Whether or not the majority of people would be 100% comfortable with sharing their partner had they been raised in a society that was permissive of or actively encouraged that behavior is beyond the scope of my argument.
All I'm saying is, as it stands right now, most people would have negative feelings when confronted with a partner's intentions to have sexual relations with others, regardless of their feelings on the matter.
Doesn't that sound right?
54
Pasta, I agree that my husband didn't take the best possible approach. He was stuck in the world view that you recommend, the view that any self-respecting woman will (and should) walk away from a husband who wants extramarital sex. That made it hard for him to be honest, even when he knew something had to change. Your mocking (@52) of the idea that people may feel a deep need to fulfill their sexual fantasies is out of place on Dan's blog.
If I encourage people to talk about their desires and fantasies with their partners, it's because I'm trying to change the culture.
Yes, I think those changes may lead to more extra-relationship sex, as well as more happy sex within each relationship.
No, I don't think talking about desire and fantasies destroys otherwise strong relationships.
Yes, I encourage everyone to open up to their partners about their desires so that years of trust and communication can help relationships survive the crises that will inevitably happen.
No, I don't encourage happily monogamous couples to be non-monogamous.
If I encourage people to talk about their desires and fantasies with their partners, it's because I'm trying to change the culture.
Yes, I think those changes may lead to more extra-relationship sex, as well as more happy sex within each relationship.
No, I don't think talking about desire and fantasies destroys otherwise strong relationships.
Yes, I encourage everyone to open up to their partners about their desires so that years of trust and communication can help relationships survive the crises that will inevitably happen.
No, I don't encourage happily monogamous couples to be non-monogamous.
55
@50: Word. There's a world of difference between, "I would feel degraded in that situation," and "She's been degraded, because that's how I would feel if it were me." Overgeneralizing does not make for a good argument.
56
MY APOLOGIES EVERYONE.
I didn't realize that dissenting opinions had no place on this blog.
But for the record, I never said people shouldn't communicate their fantasies and desires to their partners. Sometimes, the right thing to do is to go without.
If I make a monogamous commitment, I'm sticking to it, and I expect my partner to do the same. Slip-ups happen, but to throw out a "need" for ongoing fucking on the side years in is selfish. I can forgive an affair, I can't forgive a spouse who puts their wants so far ahead of my emotional security and the family we've made together.
The thought that any fleeting interest in outside sexual relationships should always be seriously considered and discussed seems absurd. Crushes happen and people get past them. Opening the door with no particular person in mind lets jealousy and insecurity come waltzing on in.
Unless both partners are equally on board, I think it's a bad idea and bad advice.
But I guess these opinions have no place on Dan's blog, so I guess I'll have to leave!
I didn't realize that dissenting opinions had no place on this blog.
But for the record, I never said people shouldn't communicate their fantasies and desires to their partners. Sometimes, the right thing to do is to go without.
If I make a monogamous commitment, I'm sticking to it, and I expect my partner to do the same. Slip-ups happen, but to throw out a "need" for ongoing fucking on the side years in is selfish. I can forgive an affair, I can't forgive a spouse who puts their wants so far ahead of my emotional security and the family we've made together.
The thought that any fleeting interest in outside sexual relationships should always be seriously considered and discussed seems absurd. Crushes happen and people get past them. Opening the door with no particular person in mind lets jealousy and insecurity come waltzing on in.
Unless both partners are equally on board, I think it's a bad idea and bad advice.
But I guess these opinions have no place on Dan's blog, so I guess I'll have to leave!
57
Don't leave, Pastaefagoli, just stop saying that I'm a damaged freak pushing my degrading experiences on everyone. Okay? Or accept that I'm going to push back against that reading of my life.
> Unless both partners are equally on board, I think it's a bad idea
Realistically, people don't get to the same place at the same time. If both people have to share a kink/fetish/fantasy before anyone gets to bring it up, then everyone will be stuck with just missionary and oral until the end of time.
People get to bring up their fantasies, even if the other person might think that stuff is icky. GGG means listening, and trying to understand the seemingly icky stuff. And then turning around and sharing your own possibly icky fantasies with your partner. Yes, it's scary. But the alternative is waking up in your 40s to realize that you can't satisfy each other any longer because you're too set in your ways.
> Unless both partners are equally on board, I think it's a bad idea
Realistically, people don't get to the same place at the same time. If both people have to share a kink/fetish/fantasy before anyone gets to bring it up, then everyone will be stuck with just missionary and oral until the end of time.
People get to bring up their fantasies, even if the other person might think that stuff is icky. GGG means listening, and trying to understand the seemingly icky stuff. And then turning around and sharing your own possibly icky fantasies with your partner. Yes, it's scary. But the alternative is waking up in your 40s to realize that you can't satisfy each other any longer because you're too set in your ways.
58
I would generally agree readily with Ms Erica in the case of an active turn-on, but I think passive turns-on can be a bit trickier. While Mr Persimmon seemed to come across through Ms Persimmon's account of him as being maybe just on the shallow side with his boasting, others in his position or he himself might just not be the sort of person who'd be a good fit for that sort of role. Before Retiring from Romance (I wish I could make a little trademark symbol to put after that), I never slipped or even came close to slipping. Had any of my partners mentioned such a turn-on, I'd have found it interesting and not been disgusted, but I'd have had to make it quite clear that I could never deliver on such a request. Besides, given that I'm about as hot as Absolute Zero, it probably wasn't within the realm of statistical plausibility anyway, so that even discussing it feels like unpardonable vanity. Perhaps it's a moral failing on my part, and a person ought to be willing to become an adulterer if it's a turn-on for hes spouse (I prefer hes/hem to hir as more clear) - there does seem to be a touch of O Henry about it, but it would have been too shattering to my identity.
But to return to the Persimmons, one plausible reason for her not telling him might be that she'd want it to be his idea. It could be similar to the way that some people can't really enjoy a kink fully if they're just being obliged by partners rather than the partners getting into it of their own accord, only a little more stalemating. If talking him into it or even appearing to by raising the subject drains the fun from the fantasy, she's trapped in the corner unless/until he develops the taste and raises the subject or at least opens the door. Or, as I said earlier, perhaps the idea is too new to her for her to be ready for the possible developments. Sharing a "we" fantasy as soon as it hits one may be one thing, but a "you" fantasy has a much higher potential for an "icky" burden.
More...
But to return to the Persimmons, one plausible reason for her not telling him might be that she'd want it to be his idea. It could be similar to the way that some people can't really enjoy a kink fully if they're just being obliged by partners rather than the partners getting into it of their own accord, only a little more stalemating. If talking him into it or even appearing to by raising the subject drains the fun from the fantasy, she's trapped in the corner unless/until he develops the taste and raises the subject or at least opens the door. Or, as I said earlier, perhaps the idea is too new to her for her to be ready for the possible developments. Sharing a "we" fantasy as soon as it hits one may be one thing, but a "you" fantasy has a much higher potential for an "icky" burden.
59
@58 All I mean is that persimmon could let slip that she wouldn't run shrieking from the marriage if he ever had that kind of inclination. Maybe tie it in to a movie they watch, or a book she just read. She doesn't have to make the idea sound like it comes from her own interest, or that she cares if it ever happens. I just think it might save her husband from possibly betraying her trust, in the future, if he learned ahead of time that she wouldn't be totally devastated.
60
Ms Erica - That's certainly possible. We've just seen quite enough instances of Pandora's Box in similar situations. But I'm sure she can get her point across without having to grab the wheel and force an unexpected detour.
61
How many times I could have asked this question in my youth. I'm still a serial monogamist, and currently, happily, and presumably at the end of that series. But I love the series. The memory of each stop is like doing it again.
62
@61:
Your comment doesn't really address the letter in any way, but boy, did it make me smile. Thanks.
Your comment doesn't really address the letter in any way, but boy, did it make me smile. Thanks.
63
@Pasta: Your comments in this thread, where they involve anything other than you describing yourself, are nasty and decoupled from reality -- both within the confines of the thread and beyond. That you interpret any resistance to your nastiness as persecution is completely batshit.
@Erica: Bad swears were completely justified.
@Erica: Bad swears were completely justified.
64
@63: Your statement is inaccurate and serves no purpose but to attempt to insult me. The fact that you encourage swearing in response to my comments rather than discussion of the points I raise leads me to believe you're nothing but taking sides. The one insulting comment I made (gets off on degradation) partly had its roots in a comment from a while back suggesting a cheated-on spouse masturbate to the thought of the partner's transgression. That has no bearing on this discussion.
It seems that this forum is in near unanimous agreement that an asexual person should not enter a relationship with a sexual person only to lay their asexuality cards on the table years in (the bait-and-switch). Why then, is it so acceptable that a person pull the remarkably similar move of throwing out a "fetish-too-far" (multiple partners, etc.) years in? Maybe you want to, maybe you REALLY want to, but if your having multiple partners is going to hurt your spouse (in the same way that one parter's total withholding would hurt their spouse) than why is one a-ok in the eyes of this forum and the other is not? Personally, I think they are both wrong.
Discussion of these desires is, of course, encouraged. But to demand them is selfish and manipulative. There are fewer people who want open relationships (whether this is caused by societal expectations or not is moot), and I could imagine finding a primary partner would be that much harder. Same thing with asexuals. Why is one demonized and the other venerated here? I am really curious to know the answer to this.
(I know this is a blog dedicated to discussing issues regarding sex, however, I don't think that precludes holding logically consistent points of view.)
It seems that this forum is in near unanimous agreement that an asexual person should not enter a relationship with a sexual person only to lay their asexuality cards on the table years in (the bait-and-switch). Why then, is it so acceptable that a person pull the remarkably similar move of throwing out a "fetish-too-far" (multiple partners, etc.) years in? Maybe you want to, maybe you REALLY want to, but if your having multiple partners is going to hurt your spouse (in the same way that one parter's total withholding would hurt their spouse) than why is one a-ok in the eyes of this forum and the other is not? Personally, I think they are both wrong.
Discussion of these desires is, of course, encouraged. But to demand them is selfish and manipulative. There are fewer people who want open relationships (whether this is caused by societal expectations or not is moot), and I could imagine finding a primary partner would be that much harder. Same thing with asexuals. Why is one demonized and the other venerated here? I am really curious to know the answer to this.
(I know this is a blog dedicated to discussing issues regarding sex, however, I don't think that precludes holding logically consistent points of view.)
65
@64: You dial back the nasty, but not the projection. I have no problem with your opinions about these matters, but your arguments seem primarily against your own assumptions/projections about other people's opinions and motivations, rather than what they are actually saying, hence the decoupled-from-reality comment.
Case in point: because I take issue with your nastiness and carelessness with demonstrable facts (hint: we can see exactly what people wrote!), you bizarrely assign opinions to me that you then spend the rest of your comment arguing against.
And swearing does not approach the level of the nastiness you were shoveling.
Gack. Enough. Life is too short.
Case in point: because I take issue with your nastiness and carelessness with demonstrable facts (hint: we can see exactly what people wrote!), you bizarrely assign opinions to me that you then spend the rest of your comment arguing against.
And swearing does not approach the level of the nastiness you were shoveling.
Gack. Enough. Life is too short.
67
If you know you're asexual, or poly, then you should reveal that upfront. Of course.
But if you believe you prefer monogamy, and only discover 14 years in that the idea of having to choose between divorce and never having sex with anyone else is horrifying... you're not a bad person. People change, and they don't belong to each other. Not really.
If I couldn't handle what my husband needed now (regardless of his vows in our 20s), we would divorce, and our property and custody of our children would be divided -- it wouldn't be the end of the world. But I've chosen to stick it out, and I'm happy with my choice. I've had some fun adventures with other people, and our sex life together is awesome. Much better, much less routine, than it was before he admitted he was struggling to stay faithful.
Hope that helps.
But if you believe you prefer monogamy, and only discover 14 years in that the idea of having to choose between divorce and never having sex with anyone else is horrifying... you're not a bad person. People change, and they don't belong to each other. Not really.
If I couldn't handle what my husband needed now (regardless of his vows in our 20s), we would divorce, and our property and custody of our children would be divided -- it wouldn't be the end of the world. But I've chosen to stick it out, and I'm happy with my choice. I've had some fun adventures with other people, and our sex life together is awesome. Much better, much less routine, than it was before he admitted he was struggling to stay faithful.
Hope that helps.
68
With all due respect Erica, the way you described your husband informing you he would be having sex with others, calling it dying inside, finding it horrifying he might never have sex with another... his insistence that alllllll men want this (and your promotion of that view here)... it sounds pretty fucking degrading. You've had fun adventures with people? What about the asshole who brutally anally raped you? Oh sorry, took an play session too far because the dumb mother fucker didn't know what a hard limit was and thought you were asking for it? (clever that one, very clever).....
You keep saying you have this fabulous sunshine and rainbows relationship now and are so thrilled about what's going on in your relationship that yes, every time someone expresses they find the idea of polyfuckery stimulating, you suggest exploring opening the union because you're just so fucking thrilled to be open and it's been so fabulous for you... but what you write sounds like absolute hell to many people. And many people can't get how you can call the experiences you frequently describe as an example of a "healthy" relationship or anything close to "fun." It's like there's this total cognitive dissonance from what you describe and how you say you feel about it. I'm not even talking the non-monogamy parts in and of itself being disturbing, but how it was negotiated (er, wasn't) and the near religious conversion to how supposedly "all men" want this so therefore you're fine because it's science, and logical and rational. No it's fucking not.
I can't even think of anything more disrespectful than to be married for over a decade and then inform your spouse you will be fucking others and they can fuck off if they don't like it. It's coercion to get someone in that deep and then throw that out, not to mention flat out saying "oh and I'm bored shitless of you in bed." What else does it mean when someone isn't sexually satisfied with just their spouse? If a spouse is so satisfying why would one want to fuck others with all the risk of the drama being with others brings? I know why mine did. Because he could. Once I got it through his fucking head he could have the rest or the best (his word, not mine) but not both, he sucked it up... and this was after several years of lying cheating, DADT, fully open, and semi-open arrangements which were occassionally successful but always brought too many other people to deal with into the mix. Note: We did NOT go back to monogamy because I was jealous. Far from it. He was more jealous than I was. We went back because we just really didn't need all those in our relationship and having to deal with our own individual quirks and dramas was quite enough.
I know you keep saying you are happy you didn't call your husband's bluff, and had such great adventures... but that's not what you describe. What you describe has often sounded like outright emotional and physical brutality. And he didn't have to do that to you, not that way. It was cruel and wrong and dressing it up in "science" and him expressing "his true self that all men want" is just utter poppycock dressing up a pig in a silk dress.
More...
You keep saying you have this fabulous sunshine and rainbows relationship now and are so thrilled about what's going on in your relationship that yes, every time someone expresses they find the idea of polyfuckery stimulating, you suggest exploring opening the union because you're just so fucking thrilled to be open and it's been so fabulous for you... but what you write sounds like absolute hell to many people. And many people can't get how you can call the experiences you frequently describe as an example of a "healthy" relationship or anything close to "fun." It's like there's this total cognitive dissonance from what you describe and how you say you feel about it. I'm not even talking the non-monogamy parts in and of itself being disturbing, but how it was negotiated (er, wasn't) and the near religious conversion to how supposedly "all men" want this so therefore you're fine because it's science, and logical and rational. No it's fucking not.
I can't even think of anything more disrespectful than to be married for over a decade and then inform your spouse you will be fucking others and they can fuck off if they don't like it. It's coercion to get someone in that deep and then throw that out, not to mention flat out saying "oh and I'm bored shitless of you in bed." What else does it mean when someone isn't sexually satisfied with just their spouse? If a spouse is so satisfying why would one want to fuck others with all the risk of the drama being with others brings? I know why mine did. Because he could. Once I got it through his fucking head he could have the rest or the best (his word, not mine) but not both, he sucked it up... and this was after several years of lying cheating, DADT, fully open, and semi-open arrangements which were occassionally successful but always brought too many other people to deal with into the mix. Note: We did NOT go back to monogamy because I was jealous. Far from it. He was more jealous than I was. We went back because we just really didn't need all those in our relationship and having to deal with our own individual quirks and dramas was quite enough.
I know you keep saying you are happy you didn't call your husband's bluff, and had such great adventures... but that's not what you describe. What you describe has often sounded like outright emotional and physical brutality. And he didn't have to do that to you, not that way. It was cruel and wrong and dressing it up in "science" and him expressing "his true self that all men want" is just utter poppycock dressing up a pig in a silk dress.
69
Wendy, since you think my desires are degrading ("S&M... is a psychological fuck up that needs treatment" -- only the most recent of your continuing attacks)... I'm not sure why you think I'd listen to a word you say on any topic.
Since you can't appreciate when masochists say they're happy, of course you can't appreciate when I say I'm happy. I'm a masochist, so that's not a big surprise. But as it turns out, you have the perfect life for you, and I have the perfect life for me, and we can just both be happy that we don't know each other in real life.
Since you can't appreciate when masochists say they're happy, of course you can't appreciate when I say I'm happy. I'm a masochist, so that's not a big surprise. But as it turns out, you have the perfect life for you, and I have the perfect life for me, and we can just both be happy that we don't know each other in real life.
70
And that's why your advice doesn't apply widely Erica, you're a masochist, that's a small subset of the population.
From the beginning all I was trying to get at is that an arrangement that works for you because of yor personality, probably isn't going to work out as well for many other people and I don't thnink you see that.
Wendy said everything I was trying to say much more clearly.
From the beginning all I was trying to get at is that an arrangement that works for you because of yor personality, probably isn't going to work out as well for many other people and I don't thnink you see that.
Wendy said everything I was trying to say much more clearly.
71
I don't think one has to be a masochist to tell one's spouse about one's fantasies. So I'm going to continue to advise that people at least *consider* the idea of opening up to their partner about desires and fantasies.
Half of my fantasies I would never want to try in real life (or at least not this decade), so I definitely don't think fantasies have to become real. But in my experience just talking openly about fantasies helps build intimacy between two people.
Half of my fantasies I would never want to try in real life (or at least not this decade), so I definitely don't think fantasies have to become real. But in my experience just talking openly about fantasies helps build intimacy between two people.
72
@68 Also, I want to speak back to the way you're throwing my assault in my face, Wendy. Should everyone who has ever been assaulted stop dating, Wendy? Will we be safe enough then?
My life is not about maximizing safety. My life is about seeking out joy. There's a guy I now know, who bites my shoulders and back in a quite delicious way, and loves to feel my teeth on his cock. Don't know how long it will last, but it has been fun this year. Sadly, you don't think me having consensual painful sex is any better than having non-consensual painful sex. But I do.
My life is not about maximizing safety. My life is about seeking out joy. There's a guy I now know, who bites my shoulders and back in a quite delicious way, and loves to feel my teeth on his cock. Don't know how long it will last, but it has been fun this year. Sadly, you don't think me having consensual painful sex is any better than having non-consensual painful sex. But I do.
73
I'm not sure why this has become pile on EricaP day. Just to remind everyone, persimmon said
and Erica responded:
Not have you arranged a gangbang? Not have you opened up your relationship completely? Not have you changed into a sub-dom relationship like I have? Just, have you told your partner about things in your erotic imagination.
And somehow pastaefagoli and wendykh have turned it into Erica trying to get everyone to become masochists.
I'd be okay--even aroused--by the thought of him being with another woman.
and Erica responded:
have you told him?
Not have you arranged a gangbang? Not have you opened up your relationship completely? Not have you changed into a sub-dom relationship like I have? Just, have you told your partner about things in your erotic imagination.
And somehow pastaefagoli and wendykh have turned it into Erica trying to get everyone to become masochists.
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