Friday, March 16, 2012
Media / Theater Re: This American Life Pulls Mike Daisey Story
Posted by Brendan Kiley on Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:01 PM
Rob Schmitz, the China correspondent for Marketplace, has a story up about the Daisey situation:
For years, reporters in China have uncovered a sizable list of problems that have shown the dark side of what it’s like to work at factories that assemble Apple products. Mike Daisey would have you believe that he encountered—first-hand—some of the most egregious examples of this history all in just a six-day trip he took to the city of Shenzhen.
Take one example from his monologue—it takes place at a meeting he had with an illegal workers union. He meets a group of workers who’ve been poisoned by the neurotoxin N-Hexane while working on the iPhone assembly line: “…and all these people have been exposed,” he says. “Their hands shake uncontrollably. Most of them…can't even pick up a glass.”
...last week, together with Ira Glass, the host of This American Life Host, I confronted Daisey in an interview. I brought up the workers he says he met who were poisoned by N-hexane. I tell him what Cathy [his translator] said.
Rob Schmitz: Cathy says you did not talk to workers who were poisoned with hexane.
Mike Daisey: That’s correct.
RS: So you lied about that? That wasn’t what you saw?
MD: I wouldn’t express it that way.
RS: How would you express it?
MD: I would say that I wanted to tell a story that captured the totality of my trip.
Ira Glass: Did you meet workers like that? Or did you just read about the issue?
MD: I met workers in, um, Hong Kong, going to Apple protests who had not been poisoned by hexane but had known people who had been, and it was a constant conversation among those workers.
IG: So you didn’t meet an actual worker who’d been poisoned by hexane.
MD: That’s correct.
For the hundredth time: I respect Mike and what he does—he's an extraordinarily talented writer, storyteller, and performer. But fooling with facts like these—and then waiting until you're caught to say "hey, it's just theater"—is bad business.
1
Mike Daisy lied throughout his book about Amazon, why would you expect him to not lie about other things? He was horrible here in Seattle and continues to be horrible elsewhere. Why anyone would give that sweaty liar a venue is beyond me.
2
I'm not sure why you'd respect him and what he does. The entire reason what he says has impact is the assumption that it's literally true. If he's making stuff up to make it more salacious then that's simply lying.
3
But still you got to respect what he does. Like Andrew Breitbart, right? We love Breitbart for what he stands for, for higher truth, not for his relationship with mere facts. Or Rush Limbaugh. There's this whole pantheon of thinkers who are above being called liars.
Bullshitters we call them. Bullshitters don't even know the difference between fact and non-fact. They don't ask and they don't care. They're on a mission. I respect Daisey sooooo much for his grade A choice bullshit.
Bullshitters we call them. Bullshitters don't even know the difference between fact and non-fact. They don't ask and they don't care. They're on a mission. I respect Daisey sooooo much for his grade A choice bullshit.
4
Speaking of Marketplace, a few weeks back they had a piece by someone that pretended to be a war vetran. I missed the story itself, but caught the retraction - man were they embarrassed. They even ran a bizare opinion piece a few days later from a vet complaining about people that pretend to be vets but aren't.
5
He's a brilliant man, but it has been reported to me that he doesn't mind bending the truth to fit his need...
I guess I don't mind so much because I view him as an entertainer, and I respect that he fessed up to the lie. It shows stronger character than lying again to cover the initial lie.
For the record, I do not support lying: No honey, you look great in that dress!
I guess I don't mind so much because I view him as an entertainer, and I respect that he fessed up to the lie. It shows stronger character than lying again to cover the initial lie.
For the record, I do not support lying: No honey, you look great in that dress!
6
I still think the Agony and Ecstasy performed live by Mr. Daisey is a theatrical piece designed to get the audience to consider that people make what they consume. I found it a simple goal well accomplished.
That said, how people consume theatre is highly subjective; the space that exists in an audience mind, the area in which a piece is completed is infinite. And as the audience for this particular show expanded, and the mode for telling the piece changed (losing his physical presence in exchange for more viewers) the piece itself changed even as the text remained the same. Kudos to Brendan for anticipating this; at the time I thought his review missed the point.
That said, how people consume theatre is highly subjective; the space that exists in an audience mind, the area in which a piece is completed is infinite. And as the audience for this particular show expanded, and the mode for telling the piece changed (losing his physical presence in exchange for more viewers) the piece itself changed even as the text remained the same. Kudos to Brendan for anticipating this; at the time I thought his review missed the point.
7
And thus the narrative goes directly from bullshit "OH NOES, Apple is being Teh Evilz!!!1" to bullshit "OMG, Daisey made everything up, Apple is Teh Innocentz!!!!1" without even so much as a detour in the direction of an actual, serious conversation about the way nearly all consumer goods in this country are now manufactured. Well done, America, well done.
8
@6: Except he wants people to consider the 13 year olds that make the things we consume. The 13 year olds that do not, apparently, exist. Ultimately, he does more harm than good and undercuts the very point he's trying to make. The next time a more honest person talks about legitimate labor abuses in China, we will all have Daisy in the back of our head and perhaps be more skeptical than warranted.
Liars are liars. Presenting something as fact when it is untrue is a lie. There is no higher good that justifies that behavior.
Liars are liars. Presenting something as fact when it is untrue is a lie. There is no higher good that justifies that behavior.
11
@7 Which is unavoidable, which is WHY it's bad to do what Daisey did in the first place, god dammit. What are you going to do, try to get people like Daisey to not do this/not air their work or try to change human's irrational logic?
I'd like to do both, but let's start small.
I'd like to do both, but let's start small.
12
@8, they exist, but not at Foxconn. Young fingers typically work in textiles, and more likely in places like Thailand and Bangladesh, not China (though they exist there too). Foxconn is a pretty professional, regulated example.
The thing that always annoyed me about Daisey's story is the same thing that annoys me about the Invisible Children people: they airlift themselves into a world that's every bit as complex as ours, in very different ways, make a bunch of snap judgements based on ten seconds worth of research, and start reporting back on the 0.01% of the story that they saw. And they completely miss what's really going on.
How many factories in other parts of China did Daisey visit? Did he see the types of small workshops that turn out vast quantities of Chinese merchandise, like this example:
Does he have any understanding of the role the Foxconn factory plays in the historic migration of people from failing rural China to the outskirts of cities like Shenzen, or the many thousands of other factories like it (or not like it)? Does he know anything about the history of the area? The history of the Chinese manufacturing boom? What role other factors like the supply chain take? Any context at all?
Does he know anything about hexane poisoning in the US, for that matter? What does he think the soil around Boeing Plant 2 or Ford River Rouge has in it? Or even a modern facility, like Samsung in Austin, who make a lot of Apple bits as well?
I always end up after hearing or reading something like Daisey's bit that I now know less about the subject than I did before.
More...
The thing that always annoyed me about Daisey's story is the same thing that annoys me about the Invisible Children people: they airlift themselves into a world that's every bit as complex as ours, in very different ways, make a bunch of snap judgements based on ten seconds worth of research, and start reporting back on the 0.01% of the story that they saw. And they completely miss what's really going on.
How many factories in other parts of China did Daisey visit? Did he see the types of small workshops that turn out vast quantities of Chinese merchandise, like this example:
We were on a dark, narrow road where every storefront was some variation of a live/work machine shop. Each one different. Each one specialized. A whole town of them, crammed side by side on narrow streets lit only by the glow of naked fluorescent bulbs. Think Bladerunner meets pre-industrial metal shops. The energy was palpable. Clean? No. Could we find it on a map? No. Could we have ever imagined that a factory work is outsourced to places like this?Any hexane poisoning going on there, do you think?
Does he have any understanding of the role the Foxconn factory plays in the historic migration of people from failing rural China to the outskirts of cities like Shenzen, or the many thousands of other factories like it (or not like it)? Does he know anything about the history of the area? The history of the Chinese manufacturing boom? What role other factors like the supply chain take? Any context at all?
Does he know anything about hexane poisoning in the US, for that matter? What does he think the soil around Boeing Plant 2 or Ford River Rouge has in it? Or even a modern facility, like Samsung in Austin, who make a lot of Apple bits as well?
I always end up after hearing or reading something like Daisey's bit that I now know less about the subject than I did before.
13
"We all know art is not the truth. It is a lie that makes us realize the truth."
Picasso said that...
Picasso said that...
14
I also don't understand how anyone can continue to "respect" Mike Daisey. On top of the misinformation and exaggeration--which only serves to harm the cause he purports to be concerned about--the real problem is that Daisey lied specifically because he knew it would add to his personal renown and fame. Unlike the hundreds or thousands of honest journalists and activists who have tried to expose the problems with international labor conditions by uncovering the truth, Daisey chose to "expose" a fantasy that knew or hoped would make him a celebrity of this cause. This is coupled with the arrogance of believing that he would not be caught. He could easily have told a (nearly) as compelling story by quoting activist sources, credible journalists, etc. But instead he chose to weave a fable with himself conveniently at the center, for the sheer purpose of self-aggrandizement and ticket sales.
And what did the cause he was promoting get in exchange for a brief moment of increased, Daisey-centric media attention? From now on all reports, even the most credible, will be taken with a grain of salt by newspaper editors and the general public and the corporations are given an easy way to deflect public scrutiny.
I say this, as well, as someone who has lived in China, and who is fairly ambivalent about the "problem" of sweatshops in general (it's part of the development process; the incidence of forced/child labor in China is low; the Chinese people as a whole are many orders of magnitude better off than they were just a few decades ago; there's an overriding "blame China" sentiment that overlooks similar/worse abuses elsewhere in the world; etc. etc.) But I see no reason Daisey deserves anything but the scorn, disrepute, and shame he hopefully has coming for him. In the end, he's a worse version of James Frey; both are fame-hungry, but at least Frey had the decency to only lie about things that affected himself.
More...
And what did the cause he was promoting get in exchange for a brief moment of increased, Daisey-centric media attention? From now on all reports, even the most credible, will be taken with a grain of salt by newspaper editors and the general public and the corporations are given an easy way to deflect public scrutiny.
I say this, as well, as someone who has lived in China, and who is fairly ambivalent about the "problem" of sweatshops in general (it's part of the development process; the incidence of forced/child labor in China is low; the Chinese people as a whole are many orders of magnitude better off than they were just a few decades ago; there's an overriding "blame China" sentiment that overlooks similar/worse abuses elsewhere in the world; etc. etc.) But I see no reason Daisey deserves anything but the scorn, disrepute, and shame he hopefully has coming for him. In the end, he's a worse version of James Frey; both are fame-hungry, but at least Frey had the decency to only lie about things that affected himself.
15
My god, people. Don't lie! You can recover from almost anthing, but if you torpedo the trust people have in you, that's it, and any points you've earned til then get reset to zero. It's not worth it.
16
Lovely. Now all the Apple defenders can feel less guilty about their repulsive consumption habits of tech toys. Jump on the bandwagon and pelt Mike Daisey, everyone! Then we can feel better about being the gluttonous and greedy American pigs that we are. Consume, consume, consume and continue to butt fuck the planet, Amurka! No doubt Apple were the ones that did the research on this one. Smear Mike Daisey and all the Liberal Whites will start buying again! Greed is good. You all disgust me.
17
This is really stupid as has been said because the point is lost that in fact there are terrible factory conditions in China, and being rapidly expanded to Vietnam in a search for lower labor prices. FoxConn, FoxLink and Flextronics the big 3 electronics manufacturers, Taiwanese owned by the way, and they have US presence as well, are not where massive labor abuses are happening. This fabrication makes americans say "Oh I heard he lied about that" when the real problems are moving out of China and further up the supply chain.
18
@17
Yup, exactly. "Oh I heard that guy lied about all that" and then they all start buying again. I bet Apple started to really get involved once they saw this stand up routine was affecting their profit margins. Time to rip holes in this story and put the focus on Mike Daisey-the-liar so we can all forgot about the suicide nets, the insane work hours, people who have no labor rights, people who die on the job & the other fucked up shit we support in the name of profit. Yeah, let's all instead focus on how the girl who he talked to wasn't 12 after all, and he how didn't *personally* talk to a dude who was poisoned with that chemical. Liar, liar, pants on fire!
You all are dumb. Worse, you're all fucking owned by the Apple corporation. And apparently so is Ira Glass and "Cathy."
Yup, exactly. "Oh I heard that guy lied about all that" and then they all start buying again. I bet Apple started to really get involved once they saw this stand up routine was affecting their profit margins. Time to rip holes in this story and put the focus on Mike Daisey-the-liar so we can all forgot about the suicide nets, the insane work hours, people who have no labor rights, people who die on the job & the other fucked up shit we support in the name of profit. Yeah, let's all instead focus on how the girl who he talked to wasn't 12 after all, and he how didn't *personally* talk to a dude who was poisoned with that chemical. Liar, liar, pants on fire!
You all are dumb. Worse, you're all fucking owned by the Apple corporation. And apparently so is Ira Glass and "Cathy."
19
@Fnarf If you do want to know more about Chinese labor struggles and factory conditions, Ching Kwan Lee's book Against the Law is a slightly dated but really good study of the industrial north and the tech and garment manufacturing in the south. Unlike Daisey, Lee speaks Chinese, spent a lot of time interviewing actual people, and combined that a ton of research and analysis.
Daisey's piece on TAL frustrated me even though I didn't think he had made up any stories. It was clear that he had no knowledge or understanding of the the history or economic conditions of the area. Foxconn is actually one of the better employers these days, for one thing. For another, the Chinese government has actually made (admittedly inconsistent) attempts to improve labor conditions. But when they pass new labor laws, the American Chamber of Commerce pitches a giant fit and threatens to move all factories to Vietnam. We can go after individual companies to try and be more scrupulous in their sourcing of products, but I don't think we're going to see real change without entirely overhauling the way we as a country deal with imported goods. Ranting about how the CCP is a bunch of thugs feels better, but it's often the central government that steps in and gives workers compensation.
Also, the story Daisey told about the man with the ruined pad seeing his first working ipad is a terrible fabrication. People in Shenzhen have seen and played with touchscreens. Even poor factory workers are not going to get big-eyed over the "magic" that the white man is showing them.
Daisey's piece on TAL frustrated me even though I didn't think he had made up any stories. It was clear that he had no knowledge or understanding of the the history or economic conditions of the area. Foxconn is actually one of the better employers these days, for one thing. For another, the Chinese government has actually made (admittedly inconsistent) attempts to improve labor conditions. But when they pass new labor laws, the American Chamber of Commerce pitches a giant fit and threatens to move all factories to Vietnam. We can go after individual companies to try and be more scrupulous in their sourcing of products, but I don't think we're going to see real change without entirely overhauling the way we as a country deal with imported goods. Ranting about how the CCP is a bunch of thugs feels better, but it's often the central government that steps in and gives workers compensation.
Also, the story Daisey told about the man with the ruined pad seeing his first working ipad is a terrible fabrication. People in Shenzhen have seen and played with touchscreens. Even poor factory workers are not going to get big-eyed over the "magic" that the white man is showing them.
20
I actually talked to Mike Daisey when we was doing the Steve Jobs piece in Seattle last year and this is what he told me ...
" ... after my success with the Amazon piece, I knew I could take the dark side of America obsession with the internet to the next level. There IS no better subject than Steve Jobs and Apple; ask any internet tech columnist, putting out a screed with either in the headline is guaranteed to garner a monster number of hits ... so it made for the perfect show subject. I mean, if I wrote this thing about Michael Dell, would anyone care? So, I took some old inflammatory news repackage it as new, stirred it together with some made up stuff after getting no where at the gate to the Foxconn factory, (my interpreter was absolutely no help, what a drag), came up with the catchy title, rehearse my best 'dark dread and guilt' voice, and viola, I'm riding this baby for 2 maybe 3 years and then retiring to eat cheetos by the pool for who knows, a long time anyway ... '
I just made that up, but it captures the Truthy essence of the Mike Daisey story.
" ... after my success with the Amazon piece, I knew I could take the dark side of America obsession with the internet to the next level. There IS no better subject than Steve Jobs and Apple; ask any internet tech columnist, putting out a screed with either in the headline is guaranteed to garner a monster number of hits ... so it made for the perfect show subject. I mean, if I wrote this thing about Michael Dell, would anyone care? So, I took some old inflammatory news repackage it as new, stirred it together with some made up stuff after getting no where at the gate to the Foxconn factory, (my interpreter was absolutely no help, what a drag), came up with the catchy title, rehearse my best 'dark dread and guilt' voice, and viola, I'm riding this baby for 2 maybe 3 years and then retiring to eat cheetos by the pool for who knows, a long time anyway ... '
I just made that up, but it captures the Truthy essence of the Mike Daisey story.
21
"Lovely. Now all the Apple defenders can feel less guilty about their repulsive consumption habits of tech toys."
I have horrible news for you about the origin of every single piece of equipment that made it possible for you to post this, from the keyboard you typed it on to the Stranger's web servers and every last nanometer of aluminum wire and silicone substrate between them.
I have horrible news for you about the origin of every single piece of equipment that made it possible for you to post this, from the keyboard you typed it on to the Stranger's web servers and every last nanometer of aluminum wire and silicone substrate between them.
22
Here's a good summary of the Mike Daisey's fabrications on TAL:
http://www.edrants.com/mike-daisey-lies-…
And here's an interesting article that discusses the interlocking threads of storytelling, truth, honesty, journalism, theater involved in this retraction:
"Mr. Daisey and the fact factory" by Scott Rosenberg
http://grist.org/media/mr-daisey-and-the…
http://www.edrants.com/mike-daisey-lies-…
And here's an interesting article that discusses the interlocking threads of storytelling, truth, honesty, journalism, theater involved in this retraction:
"Mr. Daisey and the fact factory" by Scott Rosenberg
http://grist.org/media/mr-daisey-and-the…
Comments (23) RSS