Saturday, November 21, 2009
2
But what about the poor homeless people? What will they use to put their oh-so numerous belongings in?
4
Vince -- my mother has 15+ year old cotton bags from Safeway. Uses them weekly. I think she bought them for 99cents.
6
Together we can help;
A) increase the profits of one supermarket chain while pretending to give a damn about something other than increasing profits;
B) sell more plastic trash bin liners;
C) fool people into paying for things that used to be free;
D) all of the above.
A) increase the profits of one supermarket chain while pretending to give a damn about something other than increasing profits;
B) sell more plastic trash bin liners;
C) fool people into paying for things that used to be free;
D) all of the above.
7
I bought reusable hemp bags from reusablebags.com 3 1/2 years ago. They are holding up just fine. Hemp is very strong.
8
I'd be all for that sign if it didn't have the last line. The Plastic Mafia still has pull in BC too? :-/
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@6
Those bags were never free. Nor is charging for them "increasing profits." Every grocery store spends thousands and thousands on them every year and guess what? The price is factored into the cost of everything you buy at that store, just like everything else you get for "free" at grocery store.
Those bags were never free. Nor is charging for them "increasing profits." Every grocery store spends thousands and thousands on them every year and guess what? The price is factored into the cost of everything you buy at that store, just like everything else you get for "free" at grocery store.
10
5 cent is not enough to deter people from using plastic bags at the grocery store. The only people it would negatively impact are the poor. If we really want to reduce the waste of disposable plastic bags (and paper bags for that matter) we should ban them.
12
You know - I must have 20 bags to carry food around here - they give them out all the time now - every fund raising event. BUT, I buy food on impulse, on the bus, so so glad the plastics are still out there.
I reuse them in a dozen ways including braiding into whips for S and M use .... they do sting a bit and it is Green to the max ... also the bag strip whips do wash nicely.
And it seems to add to the turn on - made from trash from my own horny hands - horny to horny to fun.
I reuse them in a dozen ways including braiding into whips for S and M use .... they do sting a bit and it is Green to the max ... also the bag strip whips do wash nicely.
And it seems to add to the turn on - made from trash from my own horny hands - horny to horny to fun.
14
@13, a loonie is a one-dollar coin, so CDN$0.05 in loonies doesn't make much sense unless you cut one into twenty pieces -- which probably renders it invalid as legal tender.
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Is that a Safeway or an independently operated grocery store?
You definitely have ALWAYS been paying for those bags. You can only hope the money they are charging is being put towards something good and not just into the CEO's pocket.
Madison Market has been charging for bags for over 6 months now. They say the money earned is being put towards sustainable changes in the store, like providing battery recycling.
You definitely have ALWAYS been paying for those bags. You can only hope the money they are charging is being put towards something good and not just into the CEO's pocket.
Madison Market has been charging for bags for over 6 months now. They say the money earned is being put towards sustainable changes in the store, like providing battery recycling.
16
@10. I think the argument that it's only going to affect the poor is bs. Aldi's, a discount grocery store (I think mostly in the Midwest), has charged 20-25 cents for a paper bag for as long as I can remember. The shoppers there are primarily poor or lower middle class, and you'd better believe they bring their own bags (one large paper bag = 3-4 plastic bags so the price isn't that much more than 5 cents a plastic bag).
And, I have about 8-9 cloth bags that I use, none of which I have had to purchase (they've all been giveaways). So, it's not like people have to invest some significant amount of money to be able to avoid buying bags.
And, I have about 8-9 cloth bags that I use, none of which I have had to purchase (they've all been giveaways). So, it's not like people have to invest some significant amount of money to be able to avoid buying bags.
17
@1, Superstore doesn't even have baggers. After the checker the conveyor belt splits and they alternate which side groceries slide down to be bagged so while you're finishing up bagging on one side the checker can start with the next customer down the other side.
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The reusable bags work for me, but the quality of new ones has deteriorated over the past few years. Used to be made of canvas. Now they're some polyester-meshy thing that tears and unravels after repeated use - particularly when they're stuffed with heavier stuff.
Hope you're enjoying Van, Dan.
Hope you're enjoying Van, Dan.
20
Enjoy the BC Bud and BC men Dan.
I'd still pay 5c for a plastic bag. i tend to use plastic bags when it's raining very heavily outside and I just went to the grocery store on my way home from work.
I'd still pay 5c for a plastic bag. i tend to use plastic bags when it's raining very heavily outside and I just went to the grocery store on my way home from work.
24
So are bags "banned" or are they 5¢?
The Slash-Thru-Bag looks very definitive and assertive and bold but the little "plastic bags now 5¢" mumbles "we don't really give a shit about the environment we just want to look politically correct and, oh, that will be 5¢..."
The Slash-Thru-Bag looks very definitive and assertive and bold but the little "plastic bags now 5¢" mumbles "we don't really give a shit about the environment we just want to look politically correct and, oh, that will be 5¢..."
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@10 -- That policy is in effect at every grocery store I know in Ottawa, and I scarcely see anyone say "yes" to plastic bags.
I think it may have more to do with it being asked instead of an implicit yet -- the social pressures make it shameful to accept a plastic bag -- but anyway, it works.
I think it may have more to do with it being asked instead of an implicit yet -- the social pressures make it shameful to accept a plastic bag -- but anyway, it works.
28
Dan et al,
You've all missed the most important distinction between the Vancouver sign and the failed Seattle proposal: paper vs. plastic.
Vancouver singled out the flimsy, super-wasteful petrolium-based, useless-after-the-fact, too-thin-to-even-pick-up-dog-poop, plastic bags that are the preferred bag of the type of penny-pinching megacorporation that owns QFC and Safeway. These bags are also tiny, so a mid-volume grocery trip requires 5 or 6 of them (rather than 2 paper bags). The Safeways of the world won't even put handles on their paper bags as long as plastic is free.
Paper grocery bags aren't environmentally IDEAL, but they are far easier to source with recycled materials, reuse to collect recyclables at home, and to recycle themselves.
I'm more than happy to bring canvas bags when I leave my apartment on a grocery-specific trip. But since I don't own a car and rely on public transportation for many errands -- UNLIKE most Seattleites but LIKE many Vancouverites -- coming from home every time I hit the grocery store just isn't feasible. (When the referendum was pending, I got a little tired of proponents telling me I should just keep a bag in the back of my car.)
I still voted for Seattle's proposal, albeit begrudgingly. We should try it again, separating paper and plastic just like we separated roads and transit.
You've all missed the most important distinction between the Vancouver sign and the failed Seattle proposal: paper vs. plastic.
Vancouver singled out the flimsy, super-wasteful petrolium-based, useless-after-the-fact, too-thin-to-even-pick-up-dog-poop, plastic bags that are the preferred bag of the type of penny-pinching megacorporation that owns QFC and Safeway. These bags are also tiny, so a mid-volume grocery trip requires 5 or 6 of them (rather than 2 paper bags). The Safeways of the world won't even put handles on their paper bags as long as plastic is free.
Paper grocery bags aren't environmentally IDEAL, but they are far easier to source with recycled materials, reuse to collect recyclables at home, and to recycle themselves.
I'm more than happy to bring canvas bags when I leave my apartment on a grocery-specific trip. But since I don't own a car and rely on public transportation for many errands -- UNLIKE most Seattleites but LIKE many Vancouverites -- coming from home every time I hit the grocery store just isn't feasible. (When the referendum was pending, I got a little tired of proponents telling me I should just keep a bag in the back of my car.)
I still voted for Seattle's proposal, albeit begrudgingly. We should try it again, separating paper and plastic just like we separated roads and transit.
32
It's like this all over Canada.
The reusable bags you can purchase at the stores last for years. They also sell big plastic bins you can use as well.
While this doesn't deter -everyone- from using the plastic bags, it has caused people to switch to the reusable bags, and has also made people use less of them by packing more groceries into each plastic bag (at least at Superstore anyways, where you bag your own groceries).
Either way, it's only costing about 40-50 cents more if you keep using plastic anyways, so I don't see what people have to complain about. If you can't afford that, find something else to carry your groceries in, or re-use old ones.
The reusable bags you can purchase at the stores last for years. They also sell big plastic bins you can use as well.
While this doesn't deter -everyone- from using the plastic bags, it has caused people to switch to the reusable bags, and has also made people use less of them by packing more groceries into each plastic bag (at least at Superstore anyways, where you bag your own groceries).
Either way, it's only costing about 40-50 cents more if you keep using plastic anyways, so I don't see what people have to complain about. If you can't afford that, find something else to carry your groceries in, or re-use old ones.
33
I have purchased 10 or so canvas bags for about .50–.99 cents from Goodwill over the course of several years. They are almost all new, mostly from pledge drives for public radio/tv/arts centers, and they show no sign of wear and tear—after, like, 20 years—and are WAYYYY better than the "reusable" crap most grocery stores hawk. I keep one in my purse (for clothes shopping, makeup at the drug store, etc), one strapped to my bike, a few in the car and a few in the kitchen. Maybe twice a year I get to the store and realize I forgot a bag.
Honestly, it's amazing to me that people can't go to Goodwill, drop $3 (or more), and have 3 (or more) canvas bags for the rest of their life.
Honestly, it's amazing to me that people can't go to Goodwill, drop $3 (or more), and have 3 (or more) canvas bags for the rest of their life.
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@9: But the savings will never make it down to the consumer. The store will just make that much more profit. Are you really naïve enough as to think the store would pass down savings to their customers?
35
yeah a lot of these nylon/ripstop "reusable" bags don't look like they will hold up as well as canvas, but one cool thing about them is that they pack down real small, often in their own built-in pouch.
so people like 28 could easily keep a couple or a few in their BACKPACK (or whatever it is that you carry as you BUS and not drive, kudos to you).
that's what i've started doing. I also am often coming from work/school/town and not home, and am on the bus or am walking. I have some of these new-fangled nylon bags that pack down into very small compact sacs and they hardly take up any room in my backpack. shoot sometimes i just carry them around in my jacket pockets.
so people like 28 could easily keep a couple or a few in their BACKPACK (or whatever it is that you carry as you BUS and not drive, kudos to you).
that's what i've started doing. I also am often coming from work/school/town and not home, and am on the bus or am walking. I have some of these new-fangled nylon bags that pack down into very small compact sacs and they hardly take up any room in my backpack. shoot sometimes i just carry them around in my jacket pockets.
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I use the canvas bags but I've got a plastic milk crate in my trunk to coral the larger, heavier items. I hate those flimsy plastic bags. They split almost immediately and even if they hold together your stuff rolls around in them. The cans always seem to land on top of the bag with the bread in it. Always.
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@34. Are you really naive enough to think that the costs of doing business aren't reflected in retail costs?
Fact is, many billions of single-use plastic bags are manufactured and distributed every year. The cost to the retailer is small compared to the cost of goods, so they hand them out "for free." Few retailers will take the risk of losing customers by withdrawing that convenience, but a government mandate to charge a fee would stop the show. The environmental cost is high, so everybody wins- except the people making the bags. Past due.
Fact is, many billions of single-use plastic bags are manufactured and distributed every year. The cost to the retailer is small compared to the cost of goods, so they hand them out "for free." Few retailers will take the risk of losing customers by withdrawing that convenience, but a government mandate to charge a fee would stop the show. The environmental cost is high, so everybody wins- except the people making the bags. Past due.
39
Gotta hand it to ya Dan. post one innocuous photo of nickel bag awareness and you get all this fodder. you've got moxie? (first glance thought it was a No Sleeping Alone symbol - one pillow, bed's too big w/o you)
40
Wow, troll/douchebag @29...
You posted to this thread 4 times, evenly spaced out over an hour and a half. What an active life you must lead!
I said my piece, illustrating eloquently why Vancouver's bag fee succeeds and our proposal failed.
Then I left my computer, did a whole bunch of stuff, then went grocery shopping, barely missed a way-off-schedule bus (seriously, fuck Metro) and got my groceries soaked (in reusable bag!) while walking home in the downpour.
And you, important you, were still here trolling.
You posted to this thread 4 times, evenly spaced out over an hour and a half. What an active life you must lead!
I said my piece, illustrating eloquently why Vancouver's bag fee succeeds and our proposal failed.
Then I left my computer, did a whole bunch of stuff, then went grocery shopping, barely missed a way-off-schedule bus (seriously, fuck Metro) and got my groceries soaked (in reusable bag!) while walking home in the downpour.
And you, important you, were still here trolling.
41
I can confirm what Canadienne said @32 -- Also, some grocery stores even changed the type of plastic bags they *do* offer at around the time this switch happened, for the same let's-be-more-green reasons. Every grocery store around sells reusable bags, most of which are a lot tougher than they look. People fussed and whined about the switch before it happened. Then it happened, and people pretty much realized: not a big deal. Seriously, the discount grocers have been doing this for years, it works fine.
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You know.. having to pay for plastic bags is really not all that uncommon. I'm not really sure why Vancouver is being targeted in this photo, but it's very common in Europe. We're actually the weird ones as far as not having to pay for plastic bags. Come on people, just bring a bag out with you, it's really not that difficult.
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The people who want to continue to use wasteful bags can suck it... Welcome to the 21st century, people. Hope our kids live to see the 22nd.
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What are the environmental costs of that sign? I hear green ink is particularly toxic. I also hear that printing up slogans like "together we can help the environment" is even less expensive than buying bags. The difference between this and nothing is NOTHING.
Especially if you have a flat screen TV.
Especially if you have a flat screen TV.
45
If you melted down a week's worth of grocery bags, it would not equal 1/100th the plastic in a liquid detergent bottle or tofu tub.
46
Pitbulls, bag fees, fatties, PC v. Mac, shootings involving black people, Loveschild bait = 40+ comments. So simple, so easy. I assume The Stranger staff is 10 steps ahead and uses these like guest stars during sweeps?
"We're down in hits for the month -- but Savage'll do two obesities and one pitbull mauling. Maybe throw in a bag fee thing, and we'll be fine."
"We're down in hits for the month -- but Savage'll do two obesities and one pitbull mauling. Maybe throw in a bag fee thing, and we'll be fine."
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@45 I don't think the most significant problem with grocery bags is the *amount* of plastic, but the places they end up. Unlike a detergent bottle, a grocery bag will just be swept along in the rain. Most grocery bags you see lying around outside end up being washed into rivers, and many end up in the ocean, contributing to the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, an area the size of TEXAS full of floating (mostly plastic) garbage in the middle of the North Pacific. This has a bad effect on the environment and many marine species (turtles often eat plastic bags thinking they're jellyfish, for example).
At any rate, they've been charging for bags in Sweden for years. I think it was 1 krona (~7 kroner to 1 dollar). So about 14 cents a bag. It wasn't really that big of a deal. Of course, I had stores within walking distance, so I could just buy a few things as I needed them. Often I didn't need a bag, or I could just bring one or two myself. I don't see why people complain so much. I guess they'd rather that the costs of plastic bags remain hidden, absorbed into stores' operating costs and into pollution that most Americans aren't even aware of. If we don't know the Great Pacific Garbage Patch exists, then it doesn't matter.
At any rate, they've been charging for bags in Sweden for years. I think it was 1 krona (~7 kroner to 1 dollar). So about 14 cents a bag. It wasn't really that big of a deal. Of course, I had stores within walking distance, so I could just buy a few things as I needed them. Often I didn't need a bag, or I could just bring one or two myself. I don't see why people complain so much. I guess they'd rather that the costs of plastic bags remain hidden, absorbed into stores' operating costs and into pollution that most Americans aren't even aware of. If we don't know the Great Pacific Garbage Patch exists, then it doesn't matter.
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the thing about it is, 5 cents Canadian actually = like 87 baby seal pelts, using current exchange rates
49
This has been comment in France since at least 2006 (the year I bought many groceries in France). Most everyone at the neighborhood ATAC (a grocery chain in Paris) I usually went to brings their own bags. If you make an unexpected stop at the store, forget your bags, etc, you pay a few cents. What's the big deal? If you use them, you pay for them, if you don't, you don't. Seems perfectly fair.
50
I think we should ban tofu. We could get rid of a lot of plastic waste that way. Who cares if poor people need to carry their groceries in the rain from the Grocery Outlet. I think I might just recycle these plastic bags by making a helmet.
51
#40
I am cippled and mostly housebound - near death, so say my doctors.
And very alone. I love the sound of the rain at midnight, it makes me cry a lot.
I am gaining weight - going from 350 to about 420 in just three months. God, soon I will be stuck to this chair.
My only link to life is the ether. And you wonder why?
Shit in your grocery bag.
I am cippled and mostly housebound - near death, so say my doctors.
And very alone. I love the sound of the rain at midnight, it makes me cry a lot.
I am gaining weight - going from 350 to about 420 in just three months. God, soon I will be stuck to this chair.
My only link to life is the ether. And you wonder why?
Shit in your grocery bag.
52
What's the sound of one hand clapping?
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
What will we call 'bag ladies' without bags?
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
What will we call 'bag ladies' without bags?
53
@51
Good news! You're appearing tonight on CNN to discuss you're obesity. Questions will also include the impact right-wing health care opposition is having on your "near death" state of mind. Dan, in a promotion of his pro-activeness, is considering buying a fashionably frumpled shirt for you. First he has to fly to China and back, so (don't) don't hold your breath. And I mean that seriously, his laptop carrying case -if he remembers it- will contain trace elements of the coal country burgeoning in southern Mongolia.
Good news! You're appearing tonight on CNN to discuss you're obesity. Questions will also include the impact right-wing health care opposition is having on your "near death" state of mind. Dan, in a promotion of his pro-activeness, is considering buying a fashionably frumpled shirt for you. First he has to fly to China and back, so (don't) don't hold your breath. And I mean that seriously, his laptop carrying case -if he remembers it- will contain trace elements of the coal country burgeoning in southern Mongolia.
54
My hometown, Halifax, Nova Scotia, has a bunch of stores that have stopped plastic bags entirely. You can buy clothes bags there if you forget yours. The bag they sell are sturdy (I've never had one break) and reasonably priced, at about $1.
I tihnk the use of plastic bags is one of the few environmental issues that's currently simple to solve. It's cheaper for the grocery stores, so they'll get behind it. Simple as that.
It also is an important one psychologically, I would say. It's a opening to a mindset that has some basic understanding of reusing things, and generally moving to a reasonable culture.
I'd love to see this in Seattle! It really worked well in Halifax, and is worth expanding.
I tihnk the use of plastic bags is one of the few environmental issues that's currently simple to solve. It's cheaper for the grocery stores, so they'll get behind it. Simple as that.
It also is an important one psychologically, I would say. It's a opening to a mindset that has some basic understanding of reusing things, and generally moving to a reasonable culture.
I'd love to see this in Seattle! It really worked well in Halifax, and is worth expanding.
56
Plastic bags from grocery stores get re-used a number of times before becoming landfill. When I get plastic bags at the grocery, I use them on my next shopping trip, or to carry home library books and dvds, and then when they have been used a couple of times and are getting ratty, I use them for trash can liners or give them to my neighbor for her dog walks. If we're really serious about reducing, what should be banned are the single-use trash bags sold by the box - in fact, I suspect that the trash bag companies are behind the lobbying to ban plastic shopping bags, because if we're reusing our shopping bags, we aren't buying their products. They get used exactly once and then go straight to the landfill. At least the grocery bags have a shot at being reused until they are worn out.
57
Currently in development at the Fortnight lab: live auto-regenerating skin bags. More than a bag, it's a companion.
59
...which is why the bag tax should have been 5¢ and not 20¢.
(Another case of Seattle having the right idea but fucking itself on the details!)
(Another case of Seattle having the right idea but fucking itself on the details!)
60
I recently made a shopping trip to downtown Toronto, and EVERY store I went to was charging 5cents/bag. And those were clothing stores. I haven't been anywhere in a while that doesn't charge for bags. Guess it's a Canadian thing?
61
I support regressive taxes against the poor, after all they are the ones who make cities so unlivable in parts and make us pay through the nose with their fucked up offspring, so if this charge makes them move the fuck out of Seattle, I vote yes.
62
The Real Canadian Superstore - which is where this picture was taken - has been selling their own grocery bags for as long as I can remember, at least 10 or 15 years. This is just another way for them to dress up what they've been doing all along.
And that's not all they do. They also insist that you bag your own groceries. The $0.05 per bag is not going to show up as much of anything at all (less than $0.01 per item) on your grocery bill at all. What *does* affect the prices on the shelf significantly is the salaries of the people that would otherwise bag groceries. This they say, has been one way that they keep prices low at TRCS.
Be that as it may, I'd rather pay the extra 5-10% at the till to have my groceries bagged for me. It's just one reason I don't go there anymore. Although I'd have to admit, the store I shop at the most now - Buy Low Foods - the tellers are the ones doing the bagging, and they still do it much faster than I can. I personally think it's more about appearances than actual cost savings. And that's what these signs are about too: appearing to be environmentally friendly. When any company puts it to their customers to be the environmental stewards that they know they won't be, they're just placing the blame outside of the company.
And that's not all they do. They also insist that you bag your own groceries. The $0.05 per bag is not going to show up as much of anything at all (less than $0.01 per item) on your grocery bill at all. What *does* affect the prices on the shelf significantly is the salaries of the people that would otherwise bag groceries. This they say, has been one way that they keep prices low at TRCS.
Be that as it may, I'd rather pay the extra 5-10% at the till to have my groceries bagged for me. It's just one reason I don't go there anymore. Although I'd have to admit, the store I shop at the most now - Buy Low Foods - the tellers are the ones doing the bagging, and they still do it much faster than I can. I personally think it's more about appearances than actual cost savings. And that's what these signs are about too: appearing to be environmentally friendly. When any company puts it to their customers to be the environmental stewards that they know they won't be, they're just placing the blame outside of the company.
63
I'm wondering which Vancouver chain this was. Loblaw's owned "Superstore" and I think their smaller format Extra Foods have both been charging for bags for some time.
The company actually acknowledges they wanted to make a difference for the environment and their customers' bottom lines.
The company actually acknowledges they wanted to make a difference for the environment and their customers' bottom lines.
64
Haven't most of the Extra Foods been converted to No Frills - which is even cheaper? You pay for bags (5 cents for reusable plastic or 99 cents for a reusable fabric bag) and you bag your own stuff. They carry most of the Loblaw stuff like President's Choice but also offer the No Name brand.
They don't have everything, but you save a ton of money shopping for certain items like bakery, canned goods, and frozen stuff. And their sale items are unbelievable. I'm always able to find staff if I need help so they can't be saving that much money on labour, right?
They don't have everything, but you save a ton of money shopping for certain items like bakery, canned goods, and frozen stuff. And their sale items are unbelievable. I'm always able to find staff if I need help so they can't be saving that much money on labour, right?
65
@ 14:
loonie: (note the #2 definition)
NOUN:
Informal
1. A Canadian coin worth one dollar.
2. The Canadian dollar.
loonie: (note the #2 definition)
NOUN:
Informal
1. A Canadian coin worth one dollar.
2. The Canadian dollar.
67
I get around the whole bag issue by just putting everything in my backpack, which I carry all the time. My back pack is waterproof, copiously sized, and makes carrying heavy things much more comfortable. If I don't have my backpack on, I'm almost certainly just buying something for immediate consumption.
Convenience is killing the planet and making Americans fat and stupid. I'm all for making people bag their own fucking groceries (seriously, how dumb are you if your an able bodied person and can't bag groceries?), pay for their bags, and walk out to their own car with them.
Convenience is killing the planet and making Americans fat and stupid. I'm all for making people bag their own fucking groceries (seriously, how dumb are you if your an able bodied person and can't bag groceries?), pay for their bags, and walk out to their own car with them.
69
i just returned from korea and a lot of the grocery stores in seoul charged you for plastic bags. they made packing boxes available at the check out for people to use. i thought it was ingenious!!
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i just returned from korea and a lot of the grocery stores in seoul charged you for plastic bags. they made packing boxes available at the check out for people to use. i thought it was ingenious!!
71
Vancouver is a walking city and plastic bags don't go well with most fashions. Your just not hip if you carry plastic grocery bags and nobody here wants that. So the plastic bag thing is almost a mute point.
72
I work at the chain with that policy - it's the Real Canadian Superstore (loblaws and subsidiaries) - we've actually seen a great increase in people brining their own bags amd boxes in the year since we've bumped the price up (formerly it was 4 cents).
We also only provide baggage service for the elderly and people with infants, so take it as you may.
We also only provide baggage service for the elderly and people with infants, so take it as you may.
Comments (72) RSS