Wednesday, November 4, 2009
Religion America's First Openly Pagan Elected Official...
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:37 PM
...is a Republican who seeks "to reconstruct the pre-Christian religion of the Germanic branch of the Indo-European peoples." Um... that sounds vaguely familiar.
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It seems fine now, but when he's burning Christian churches and settling debates with ax fights, then the voters will regret their decisions.
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Finally, the GOP has someone who really embraces their Nazi heritage!!
I bet the uniforms will be quite snazzy!!
I bet the uniforms will be quite snazzy!!
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Yeah, it sound vaguely familiar because you're just educated enough to draw an inference without being educated enough to actually know what you're talking about.
Just so you know, what you're doing here would be sort of like using the behavior of Jeffrey Dahmer to imply something about gay men generally. To anyone who actually knows anything about the subject, the comparison is completely ridiculous and offensive.
But, hey -- homosexuality notwithstanding, you're an upper middle class white guy. You just go ahead and be an ignorant chauvinist. It's your god-given right.
Um... that sounds vaguely familiar.
Yeah, it sound vaguely familiar because you're just educated enough to draw an inference without being educated enough to actually know what you're talking about.
Just so you know, what you're doing here would be sort of like using the behavior of Jeffrey Dahmer to imply something about gay men generally. To anyone who actually knows anything about the subject, the comparison is completely ridiculous and offensive.
But, hey -- homosexuality notwithstanding, you're an upper middle class white guy. You just go ahead and be an ignorant chauvinist. It's your god-given right.
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There are, broadly speaking and with much hand-waving and generalisation, two major flavours of Germanic neopaganism. In a nutshell, one is militaristic, fascistic, and embraces Aryan superiority, and one has a more New-Age "warrior" thang going on (frequently involving the quaffing of large quantities of mead), and dispenses with the racial crap.
That said, I know sweet F.A. about Hiberno-Norse Theodism, or whatever this dude's branch is called, and cannot comment on whether he is a hard-brawlin', hard-drinkin', horned-helmet-wearin' good ol' boy, or a neo-Nazi in Viking drag.
That said, I know sweet F.A. about Hiberno-Norse Theodism, or whatever this dude's branch is called, and cannot comment on whether he is a hard-brawlin', hard-drinkin', horned-helmet-wearin' good ol' boy, or a neo-Nazi in Viking drag.
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Having now read the Village Voice article, let me further add:
1. The article seems to distance Halloran's faith from the racist Odinist types, and in the absence of proof to the contrary I would be inclined to accept that. Tarring both with the same stick would be as unfair as accusing all Christians of being young-earth Creationists. (And one can be a conservative without being a racist dickweed.)
2. That said, there's still room to be a racist dickweed, so if he's personally demonstrated racist attitudes, then maybe he's racist. But then it isn't coming out of his Norse faith, but out of his personal dickweeditude.
1. The article seems to distance Halloran's faith from the racist Odinist types, and in the absence of proof to the contrary I would be inclined to accept that. Tarring both with the same stick would be as unfair as accusing all Christians of being young-earth Creationists. (And one can be a conservative without being a racist dickweed.)
2. That said, there's still room to be a racist dickweed, so if he's personally demonstrated racist attitudes, then maybe he's racist. But then it isn't coming out of his Norse faith, but out of his personal dickweeditude.
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@4 Is right on.
Dan, are you seriously trying to tie a persecuted minority to a racist cult it decries at all turns. Guess it's time to tie you to the editorialists of the pre-Stonewall era that characterized all gay men as pedophiles.
Speaking as a Pagan (non-Heathen), I know plenty of Heathens and every single one of them denounces these prison Aryanists.
And if you'd clicked over to the Villiage Voice article you'd see a multi-cultural group of people that belong to Halloran's group. Not something the Nazi's would really have encouraged.
Dan, are you seriously trying to tie a persecuted minority to a racist cult it decries at all turns. Guess it's time to tie you to the editorialists of the pre-Stonewall era that characterized all gay men as pedophiles.
Speaking as a Pagan (non-Heathen), I know plenty of Heathens and every single one of them denounces these prison Aryanists.
And if you'd clicked over to the Villiage Voice article you'd see a multi-cultural group of people that belong to Halloran's group. Not something the Nazi's would really have encouraged.
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There is a difference between drinking mead out of big ridiculous horns while reciting the Edda and inciting the masses to aid you in exterminating the Jews. Unfortunately, because of the crowd who practiced the latter, people like Dan are grossly ignorant of the difference.
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Seriously fucking uncool, Dan. I have (very liberal, for the record) Norse reconstructionist neighbours down the road. They're very nice people and they get more than enough crap already without this kind of Nazi-shit-slinging attack from the so-called progressives.
Also for the record, I do not share their religious beliefs. But I am really pissed off because I am sick of all this shit. _Particularly_ today, having just been through yet another election season with the fundamentalist version of this same shitfan being aimed at me. You've just been through it too. I'd think you'd maybe fucking learn something, but then again, maybe not. If he's a goddamned racist find something that says so and that's fine. If he's not, _what the fuck is wrong with you?_
Also for the record, I do not share their religious beliefs. But I am really pissed off because I am sick of all this shit. _Particularly_ today, having just been through yet another election season with the fundamentalist version of this same shitfan being aimed at me. You've just been through it too. I'd think you'd maybe fucking learn something, but then again, maybe not. If he's a goddamned racist find something that says so and that's fine. If he's not, _what the fuck is wrong with you?_
13
Some of my best friends used to be Odinists.
Mind you this was back when the Wiccans were trying to co-opt our religious traditions and claim them as their own.
Mind you this was back when the Wiccans were trying to co-opt our religious traditions and claim them as their own.
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Even if he's not a racist, it still seems a little whack-job.
What the hell ever happened to leaving the Old World behind? There's fucking reason you left it, and it's not because it was all perfect.
Norsemen were savage murderers, like many of our "ancestors", and used their religion to justify it, like many of our contemporaries. Why do you want to take so many steps backwards?
What the hell ever happened to leaving the Old World behind? There's fucking reason you left it, and it's not because it was all perfect.
Norsemen were savage murderers, like many of our "ancestors", and used their religion to justify it, like many of our contemporaries. Why do you want to take so many steps backwards?
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Yes, Dan, some breeds of Heathen are racist Aryan Nation types. And some Catholics bomb abortion clinics.
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I am so sick of people referencing Hitler anytime something that is new to them comes along. Vegans! Hitler. Gays! Hitler. Liberals! Hitler. Freemasons! Hitler. VW! Hitler. Obama! Hitler. Pelosi! Hitler. GWB! Hitler. Isaiah Kalebu! Hitler. Death In June! Hitler.
Ok, I get that you were getting a little get back at the GOP for the Obama=Nazi associations, but let us not stoop to that level. Germanic religions have been influential loooong before damned Hitler and his goons.
Ok, I get that you were getting a little get back at the GOP for the Obama=Nazi associations, but let us not stoop to that level. Germanic religions have been influential loooong before damned Hitler and his goons.
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@19, this Slog entry is pretty much along the lines of the "53% of new AIDS cases" troll. However, it should be no surprise because Dan will never write anything favorable about the following:
Republicans
Religion
Pitbulls
Fat People
Republicans
Religion
Pitbulls
Fat People
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The track record of the Republican party on racial issues means that drawing this connection is hardly out of left field. And I say that as a Pagan with a set of my own Nordic runes sitting on the table across from me.
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20 - I understand where you're coming from regarding the rampant Hitler comparisons, but bear in mind that it's quite a bit different from we're talking about real modern groups with real ties to Neo-Nazism.
25
I've met some of these neo-pagans, they're well meaning people. I mean, if I had a choice between the US being Christian and the US being a bunch of neo-pagans celebrating the harvest, I would pick the latter for sure. They have no holy book to proclaim special knowledge and are more about everyone finding their own path.
Also if you trace the roots of neo-paganism in the US it pretty much starts with some hippies in the 60s. It really has no ideological or historical connection to the nazis.
Also if you trace the roots of neo-paganism in the US it pretty much starts with some hippies in the 60s. It really has no ideological or historical connection to the nazis.
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@13 -- In all fairness, there's a good stack of Christian traditions and holidays swiped off of the Pagans in the first place, so that's all full-circle.
But Hitler comparisons really are inappropriate here. Even if all Norse god-worshipping people were like that (and as people have pointed out, this really is on the same scale as assuming all gay people are pedophiles), Hitler was a Christian who only barely tolerated the ones who'd achieved power in the Nazi party.
But Hitler comparisons really are inappropriate here. Even if all Norse god-worshipping people were like that (and as people have pointed out, this really is on the same scale as assuming all gay people are pedophiles), Hitler was a Christian who only barely tolerated the ones who'd achieved power in the Nazi party.
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Fifty-Two-Eighty, I'm with you! Pillage and plunder, with a bit of looting and rape---yes, please!
Is Norse mythology really what the kids are calling paganism these days? Would Greek mythology fall under the same definition? From the headline, I was expecting something interesting, but vikings? I'm disappointed, but then again, he IS a republican...
Is Norse mythology really what the kids are calling paganism these days? Would Greek mythology fall under the same definition? From the headline, I was expecting something interesting, but vikings? I'm disappointed, but then again, he IS a republican...
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@27 - Neo-paganism includes a very wide variety of earth-based faiths grounded in trying to reconstruct pre-Christian traditions, including Wicca, Druidism, Alexandrian religions, and a lot of unstructured, personally-designed faiths. I don't think I've ever met a Greek pantheon Pagan, but Norse mythological elements are fairly common, as are a lot of Hindu, Buddhist and eastern elements. The most common system I see people borrowing from, however, is ancient Celtic.
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@25 - Trust me, if Paganism got big enough, it could just as likely turn into oppressive douchebaggery. Never forget that once upon a time, Christianity was the peace-kindness-charity-and-freedom-loving subversive alternative to the established institutional religions, which were, at the time....Pagan!
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Having studied Asatru (from the Old Norse Asa, meaning "gods," and Tru, meaning roughly "faith or loyalty in"), which began simultaneously in Iceland, the UK, and the USA in the 1970's, I have to say that there is many misconceptions as to the values and practices of Norse Reconstructionism. First, they do not adhere to Nazi ideology. Despite a FBI investigative report due to misconceptions during the 1990's, Asatru is as close to Neo-völkisch movements as the Anglican Church is to the Christian Identity movement. Hitler actually persecuted anyone who truly believed in this religious viewpoint, as Point 24 of the National Socialist Program illustrated. Unfortunately, as with many things, there are those who distort and tamper with ideas in order to fit their own political and, in this case, racial agenda. Secondly, they attest that they are in no way related to Wicca.
What confuses me about this man is his title. I have never heard of a figurehead called an Alething before: Althing is the term for the parliamentary government that developed in Iceland in the 10th century (and still exists today), as well as group meetings of Heathens. Gothi is the common term for priest, so perhaps that is what he is?
What confuses me about this man is his title. I have never heard of a figurehead called an Alething before: Althing is the term for the parliamentary government that developed in Iceland in the 10th century (and still exists today), as well as group meetings of Heathens. Gothi is the common term for priest, so perhaps that is what he is?
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In regards to my last post: he identifies as a neo-heathen, which means he isn't necessarily part of Asatru, hence the terminology.
Regardless, as many have said, this group is diverse in views, and many are loving people. There are many I have spoken to who support gay marriage and are even openly gay themselves.
ps - Sorry for the grammatical errors. My previous post should read, 'I have to say that there ARE many misconceptions."
Regardless, as many have said, this group is diverse in views, and many are loving people. There are many I have spoken to who support gay marriage and are even openly gay themselves.
ps - Sorry for the grammatical errors. My previous post should read, 'I have to say that there ARE many misconceptions."
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No, see, you've got it wrong, Dan. *Obama* is Hitler, with his free heathcare. Because if Hitler wanted one thing, it was for every German citizen to be healthy and debt-free, regardless of age, sex, race, or creed. Or... wait...
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This is part of the reason why I've made a point of not getting involved in any organized form of worship, or of participating in group rituals. I venerate the archetype of Loki; and while I've had some very congenial encounters with Wiccans, heathens, and adherents of Asatru, I don't seek any of them or their various organizations out. My beliefs are my own, they are well-developed, well-considered, and deeply personal... and I don't feel the need to affirm or re-affirm them within the context of a spiritual community.
There will always be people who'll spoil something, whether consciously or unconsciously (try looking at something really cool like Electric Universe Theory, a truly wonderful, alternative cosmology - which, in recent years has been undermined somewhat by proponents of Intelligent Design, who have tried co-opting EUT to advance their own agenda). These racist 'Odinists' aren't doing anybody any favours - but Dan, there was really no need to invoke Hitler or the Nazis. Bit of a cheap shot, there.
There will always be people who'll spoil something, whether consciously or unconsciously (try looking at something really cool like Electric Universe Theory, a truly wonderful, alternative cosmology - which, in recent years has been undermined somewhat by proponents of Intelligent Design, who have tried co-opting EUT to advance their own agenda). These racist 'Odinists' aren't doing anybody any favours - but Dan, there was really no need to invoke Hitler or the Nazis. Bit of a cheap shot, there.
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Hey, hey, hey, now. Dan, I love you, really, but you're way off base here. I'm Pagan myself, and while I don't follow the Norse tradition, I can tell you that the last thing we need right now is more misconceptions about the Pagan community. I have met many Norse pagans and not one of them was a goose-stepping, sieg heil-ing Nazi. Pagans in general are really open-minded, tolerant people, who believe people should get to do whatever they want as long as they're not hurting anybody. You'd probably quite like us. Please do a little research first before spreading ideas like this; too many people already think Pagans are evil, baby-sacrificing devil worshippers. Love you and all, but not cool, man, not cool.
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Since he's a Republican, and I assume white, it's probably not "Odinism", but more correctly pronounced "Wotanism".
And until I saw the R-word, I thought, "oh, a Wiccan? A losely pagan person? A Gaulo-Germanic mixed Neo-Pagan? They do tend to be so much more friendly to us atheists than do those strange Abrahamic folks." But noooooooo. We got what I can only assume is Himler (The Remix).
And until I saw the R-word, I thought, "oh, a Wiccan? A losely pagan person? A Gaulo-Germanic mixed Neo-Pagan? They do tend to be so much more friendly to us atheists than do those strange Abrahamic folks." But noooooooo. We got what I can only assume is Himler (The Remix).
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OMG! Before you start criticizing. try to learn something before you open your mouth! We will fight for the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion with more passion then the Baptists who begged Thomas Jefferson for something that covered "separation of church and state" when they were proposing a Bill of Rights to the Constitution! We value ALL life (even that we don't agree with or like). We seek to cause NO harm! We have highly developed ethics! We are conservatives as well as liberals. We are parents , children, lovers, husbands and wives. We are abled AND disabled! We are Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Conservatives and Independents! We are army officers, naval officers, just plain soldiers, bankers, lawywers, teachers, nurses, doctors, poor and wealthy. We seek mysticism at it's deepest level, and rationality the same way. We belong to all countries, make up a large part of the earth's population (when you consider that we comprise of all religions that are not Judeo-Christian-Muslim based! Stop and think a moment about what you are saying when accusing us of destruction, arson, murder or think our religion itself belongs to any political view exclusively! Thanks for letting me rant!
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