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Monday, July 14, 2014

Transgender Pagliacci Employee Fired, Then Offered Job Back, After Complaining About Customer Harassment

Posted by on Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 5:40 PM

Dylan Paul
  • Used with permission
  • Dylan Paul
Local pizza chain Pagliacci has apologized for firing an employee at its Broadway restaurant on Capitol Hill last week after she complained about a customer who she says deliberately misgendered and harassed her.

Twenty-four-year-old Dylan Paul, a student at South Seattle Community College who hails from Olympia, had been working at the Pagliacci restaurant for more than a year. Last Monday, she says, she was working the salad station and said goodbye to a regular customer. The customer responded in kind, but called her "man" and misgendered her in the process.

Paul is used to this, she tells me, and she understands when someone makes an honest mistake for the first time. "I totally get that," she says. But when the customer laughed at her after she told him, "It's ma'am, actually," she was too shocked to respond, and he left.

On Friday, the man showed up again. Here's how Paul describes their interaction in an entry posted to a friend's Tumblr page:

Just about midway through my shift working the til at Pag’s he showed up again, waiting at the slice bar for service. I stepped over to him and said, “The last time you were in here I corrected you on my gender and you laughed at me. That was really rude, and I’d like you to apologize.”

He replied, “I don’t really care what’s happening in your life, man, I just need my pizza.”

I responded, “I just need to be respected in my place of work, and I reserve the right to refuse service to you.”

Paul later told her managers about the disrespectful customer. She expected an apology from him, or for the restaurant to deny him service—especially since, she explains, she'd felt supported by the restaurant before. Paul says managers told her she should go to the back of the restaurant if the customer came in again, and someone else would serve him.

She decided to turn in her two weeks notice, but by the time she went up the stairs to inform her two managers, one of them "was there with my discharge papers." Another manager, she says, "told me, 'You were saying Pagliacci doesn't care, and I can't have you doing that. This is your last day here.' That's when it hit home for the first time that Pagliacci really didn't care, and I said as much to [one of the managers], signed my papers, changed, bid farewell to my coworkers, and stepped outside into unemployment."

Matt Galvin, the owner of Pagliacci's pizza, has since apologized to Paul in a response on Tumblr. He also tells me he's tried to reach her by phone. "I want to apologize to Dylan myself," Galvin says. "It would have been great had our managers said, 'I'm sure this is a traumatic experience…how can we support you?'" He says the managers could face sanctions after an internal investigation. He also feels personally responsible for not putting in place more thorough anti-harassment instruction for managers and employees. There's currently a mandatory training, but "it [transgender harassment] is not explored thoroughly enough," he says.

Galvin tells me he has no reason to doubt Paul's account of what happened. "I would have kicked the customer out myself," he says—if he'd been there. "If a customer is spiteful and harassing an employee, and deliberately misgendering an employee, then yeah. I’m sorry. You can't come to Pagliacci."

The Broadway restaurant will close next Tuesday evening, he says, for a former employee who conducts "Trans 101" sessions to offer a training to employees.

Paul says she's not interested in going back and is considering filing a complaint with the Seattle Office of Civil Rights. She's looking at this not as a way to focus on what happened to her, but to draw attention to "what this says about how trans people should expect to be treated where they work," she says. "My desire in looking at legal action is to say that this isn’t something that should be compromised on. People should know that we have the right to a safe workplace."

In the meantime, she's looking into working at Starbucks, where a friend, who is transgender, says the anti-discrimination policies and culture are stronger.

"I’ve been watching some of the responses to the Tumblr campaign that my friend started," Paul tells me. "The negative feedback I’ve gotten from that has either been, trans people are not owed having their gender respected. Or, you’re working in the service industry, and no one in the service industry should expect that customers should be barred for discrimination. I disagree with that," she says. "Purposely misgendering is harassment."

"In any customer-facing jobs, you’re going to get this blunt reaction from the public," says Danielle Askini, Executive Director of the Gender Justice League. "For employers, they need to have a plan in place to respond to customers who harass or discriminate or react violently to their transgender employees." She says there's often a disconnect between the top and middle management of a company on these issues.

Pagliacci has a reputation for being a relatively supportive workplace for LGBTQ employees, Askini says, but "terminating an employee for experiencing harassment is never a good solution... I'm heartened by the response of the owner. It sounds like he wants to take proactive steps."

 

Comments (181) RSS

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1
She is trying to get her 15 mins. This is absolutely ridiculous. Nothing illegal was done here. She was fired as an employee for slandering the company in front of customers. She needs to learn how customer service works.
Posted by alyssa.kamarainen on July 14, 2014 at 5:48 PM · Report this
biffp 2
Sounds like the headline should have been, "Pagliacci Makes Mistake, But Then Makes Good on Commitment to LGBT Community." The owner seems to have taken it seriously and closed the location for training tonight.
Posted by biffp on July 14, 2014 at 5:49 PM · Report this
3
Dylan better hope hiring manager from Starbucks is not reading this. They like to avoid any Drama.

Pagliacci's owner apologized and is making adjustments accept it and move on. You won !
Posted by Just Another Knowall. on July 14, 2014 at 6:03 PM · Report this
4 Comment Pulled (Trolling) Comment Policy
Maverick Biceps 5
Could Slog commenters pile on some more insults for the low wage transperson (a powerful lobby) as well as more compliments for the owner and the large franchise, or as they're sometimes known, "Society's Forgotten Ones"
Posted by Maverick Biceps on July 14, 2014 at 6:24 PM · Report this
venomlash 6
Honestly, I think Dylan would have gotten further by instead of taking the "that was rude and you hurt my feelings" approach, going for the "don't go around starting problems or you're gonna have problems". Our society stipulates that women are allowed to get all emotional about things but men tend to interact with veiled aggression.
Personally, I prefer the veiled aggression tactic. If a customer's getting pissy for no good reason, better to act kind of exasperated than ask them to stop being mean. I dunno, just my Monday-morning quarterbacking.
Posted by venomlash on July 14, 2014 at 6:25 PM · Report this
Kinison 7
Gotta stress that working at a pizza place will never, ever earn you any respect unless your delivering the pizza. Dylan fucked up by assuming an apology would be forthcoming and accusing the company of not defending her and the managers fucked up by suggesting she could simply go to the back whenever mr asshole showed up for a slice. Possible that the termination was made easier by her tone of voice, as its difficult to not feel enraged when an asshole like that comes into your store.
Posted by Kinison http://www.holgatehawks.com on July 14, 2014 at 6:26 PM · Report this
8
I've never heard of "man" as related to the gender of the person you're addressing when it's used in the way it seems to have been here, the "hey, man" sense. The guy was a jerk to laugh at her (if that's what happened rather than a nervous laugh from being corrected when he maybe had no gender in mind), but it seems not at all clear that saying "thanks, man" means you think the person you're addressing IS a man. This whole thing seems like it COULD be a misunderstanding: "thanks, man" with no gender in mind, the correction, an embarassed/confused customer reacts in not the best way and laughs, and then next time he's there he gets read the riot act and an apology is demanded when, again, he may just talk like The Dude and therefore may have thought apologizing was an unreasonable request. If that's all true then, of course, ideally he should have said, hey, sorry, I didn't mean to address you as a man, just a figure of speech. But dunno if being a bit of a dolt is necessarily "harassment." Or maybe it was all intentional. Not so sure though from the way it's described here.
Posted by g on July 14, 2014 at 6:27 PM · Report this
9
Nothing illegal was done here.

Important correction, especially given no one in the story, nor the story's author claimed otherwise!
Posted by david jw on July 14, 2014 at 6:28 PM · Report this
10
who fuckin cares this is not news he was born a dude the guy was not that rude he just wanted some pizza and that MAN does not deserve a apology i dont believe anyone should be fired but this is just dumb
Posted by pasta on July 14, 2014 at 6:31 PM · Report this
11
Accepting an apology from the owner of the company, the same one who is shutting the location down for training, disciplining the managers and backing her up on refusing the customer service if they harrass her, is not compromising. It isn't giving in and accepting less for the trans community. It is graciously accepting that the business owner is doing everything possible to right the error. EVERYONE in customer service deals with dicks. It's part of the job and refusing them service is rarely an option for any of us, trans, gay, women, people of color, differently abled, etc. We ALL face those jerks and keep doing our job. To refuse the earnest attempt to fix this and threaten legal action anyway is only going to make it harder for the next trans person who doesn't get a job because the owner/manager doesn't want to risk the social media campaign/ lawsuit that comes along if the person doesn't get above and beyond what other employees receive or there is a problem and that employee refuses to accept a rectification. I know I support the trans community 100% but I would not hire you, Dylan. What I get from this article is someone who revels in drama.
Posted by AwayNGone on July 14, 2014 at 6:40 PM · Report this
12
Read this again and it seems even more like he has to have said "thanks, man" (or the correction would have been "actually, I'm a woman" not "actually, it's ma'am"). Putting "man" after things is like calling a group of people "you guys" - it's not about gender. Maybe this is a generation gap thing? Maybe people don't do that as much these days? But it seems possible that him not apologizing could be because Dylan lit into him and was confrontational and he felt defensive, having in his mind not done anything wrong or said anything about gender at all. Seems reasonable to act defensive in that situation, and I don't see how getting angry and talking about "misgendering" is warranted if someone was just throwing around colloquialisms that are typically used in a gender-neutral way.
Posted by g on July 14, 2014 at 6:41 PM · Report this
13 Comment Pulled (Trolling) Comment Policy
delirian 14
I think she handled this about as well as she could. She was respectful and communicated to the customer why he was being rude. And it was her right to refuse service. The owner of the company also did the right thing by aggressively working on training and communicating clearly how disappointed he was in the response. The only people who really fucked up were the bigoted customer and the management who allowed the employee to work in an abusive environment without support.
Posted by delirian on July 14, 2014 at 6:45 PM · Report this
meanie 15
The only impression I have of the trans community is similar to militant feminism, its mostly negative, attention gathering and generally suspect under scrutiny.

This story while not much of a story in the end, reflects that.
Posted by meanie http://www.spicealley.net on July 14, 2014 at 6:54 PM · Report this
16
I've encountered transgendered folk working at that place for years, which always brought a smile to my face. This person though is just trying to start some unnecessary crap. If Justin Bond gave the OK to use "tranny" in close quarters than that customer should be allowed his "whatever". After all he just wants a piece of fucking pizza, not to have to go to uptight PC classes.
Posted by whateverly on July 14, 2014 at 6:59 PM · Report this
17
I was raised by two hippies from Long Beach, CA- my speech is littered with "man" and "dude" regardless of the gender of the people I'm with. Had she asked for an apology, I probably would have said, "sorry, man!" by rote habit.
Posted by Rockmama76 on July 14, 2014 at 7:01 PM · Report this
18
People are assholes and working retail means learning how to deal with assholes. She needs to lose the chip on her shoulder and develop some thicker skin.
Posted by I Got Nuthin' on July 14, 2014 at 7:04 PM · Report this
19
I call everyone dude. I also say "man" a lot. Conversely, I get chastised by people younger than my 47 years for using "ma'am". I guess I'm too lazy to say "thank you, madam" but I'll try to remember...
I would also like to think that Dylan would welcome the opportunity to work with Pagliacci's Trans101 campaign & perhaps take it chain-wide, helping other trans employees have a better experience.
Posted by ThatKelly TaylorGuy on July 14, 2014 at 7:05 PM · Report this
20 Comment Pulled (Trolling) Comment Policy
keshmeshi 21
I'm really curious how Pagliacci would handle a customer who was being abusive in a sexist way toward a ciswoman. Would they tell her to suck it up? Because that's definitely been my experience. I have never, not once, seen a male customer be reprimanded for abusing female staff.

I also find it odd that Dylan took it upon herself to reprimand the customer without an okay from management. I work in a customer service field, and talking back to a customer directly would be a firing offense. That's the job of a higher-up, period.

In any event, I personally am getting tired of this idea that misgendering is some sort of human rights violation.
Posted by keshmeshi on July 14, 2014 at 7:18 PM · Report this
22
I worked at this location back in 2006-2007. I had a difficult time there after three of my lesbian coworkers decided they didn't care for me. They would make disparaging comments about my body, my facial hair, and they even told me that the man I was dating looked like a "chi-mo" which a friend told me meant "child molester". I tried a few times, unsuccessfully, to get the manager at the time to intervene but he showed little to no concern for my situation. One day, a friend of mine stopped by on his way home from work to say hello to me. He asked me if he could have a bread stick so I gave him one since I'd witness my coworkers hand over literally hundreds of dollars worth of free food and sometimes alcohol to their lesbian friends. The very next day, the manager called me upstairs into his "office/closet" and told me three coworkers reported that I stole food. I told him I gave one bread stick to a friend and how the other employees would always give copious amounts of food including gelato and alcohol to their friends who came in much more frequently than mine ever did. He said he'd never seen or been made aware of such instances so I was "probably making it up" because I got "caught" and was trying to bring others down with me. He then stood up, closed the door, turned back towards me and said "suck my dick real fast and we'll forget this whole thing, deal? I said "HELL NO!" and then he fired me. I left in complete shock and walked back to my apartment. Now, I have absolutely nothing to gain from posting this. I am not posting this just to make a sensationalistic claim with absolutely no merit. It happened just as described. I'm just not surprised to see that this company has mishandled yet another sensitive and potentially volatile situation. Dylan has my sympathy.
More...
Posted by Withheld for privacy on July 14, 2014 at 7:18 PM · Report this
23
Dylan, based on the story as reported here it sounds like you won and have the full support of the owner of the business.

Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the fight that we miss the fact that we just won. I respectfully suggest you pause take a deep breath before you decide on your next move.
Posted by Machiavelli was framed on July 14, 2014 at 7:26 PM · Report this
seatackled 24
I think she should stand up for herself, but thinking about how I would handle harassment, I don't think it was a good idea to carry the grievance over to the next time and hit the customer with it from the outset. She says he's a regular customer, but it appears this was their first interaction, and I think it would have been more appropriate to take issue if she had waited for him to do the same thing again and he did.
Posted by seatackled on July 14, 2014 at 7:28 PM · Report this
thatsnotright 25
So upper management is totally on her side, instituting workplace awareness training, disciplining the offending manager and she's filing a complaint? She's a churl because this sounds like sincere concern on the corporation's part to make things right. She is also stupid because Pagliacci is voluntarily doing everything that would be done in response to a complaint of this natureif it were ordered to do so by the City and she now sounds wholly unreasonable.
Posted by thatsnotright on July 14, 2014 at 7:32 PM · Report this
mr. herriman 26
i wasn't there and i don't know anyone involved, and i'm pro-sensitivity in general. however, this certainly READS like it was all one big misunderstanding that needlessly escalated. tone is lost when words are put into text, and it's certainly possible that it went down the way she said it did, and with all the hostile intention. but the words on the page are not damning, in my opinion. agree with @8.
Posted by mr. herriman on July 14, 2014 at 7:36 PM · Report this
27
The next perceived insult would have been immediate, I'm sure. But again, "thanks, man" is not the same as "thanks, sir." She even quotes him as using "man" in that second interaction again in a "hey, man" sense.
Posted by g on July 14, 2014 at 7:36 PM · Report this
28
Seems like she didn't want the company apology, which is unfortunate. Just run away and think Starbucks is the answer. How stupid.
Posted by 1976 Fan on July 14, 2014 at 7:38 PM · Report this
29
People hurling invective about you night and day because of your chosen lifestyle and beliefs.

In the Pacific Northwest?

Nah. Never happens.

Heads held high you walk on low lying clouds of silver righteousness, as you excrete perfectly formed cylinders of alabaster, odor-free.

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on July 14, 2014 at 7:40 PM · Report this
30 Comment Pulled (Trolling) Comment Policy
31
I'm confused. We're expected to laugh at deniers of biological facts, like anti-evolutionists, but then are required to take seriously the protestations of a person with x and y chromosomes who claims to be a woman.
Posted by Homple on July 14, 2014 at 7:42 PM · Report this
32
Could the posters like @31 please shut the fuck up? If I say "please" it's polite, right?
Posted by g on July 14, 2014 at 7:47 PM · Report this
seatackled 33
@25

And that's why I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't get hired at Starbucks and maybe even if Pag decides to withdraw their offer to rehire--though the owner here comes across as someone who might be willing to let her return anyway.
Posted by seatackled on July 14, 2014 at 7:54 PM · Report this
34
Don't expect to be called mam or ms if you got a name tag that says paul on it.
Posted by Rainman206 on July 14, 2014 at 7:55 PM · Report this
35
What a bunch of asshole opinionators.
Give her a fucking break.

I like what @23 said:
"Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the fight that we miss the fact that we just won. I respectfully suggest you pause take a deep breath before you decide on your next move."
Posted by caution&daring on July 14, 2014 at 7:58 PM · Report this
36
"Dylan" - Paul seemed to be her last name. Which is also not a name that automatically leads someone to a specific gender, true. But you can't effectively correct someone "misgendering" you if they weren't actually doing that...again, I suspect that's the problem, based on the account we have here.
Posted by g on July 14, 2014 at 8:00 PM · Report this
raku 37
"No laws were broken" -- are you kidding?! At least two laws were clearly broken. It's illegal in Seattle to discriminate against transgender people, such as by making them go to the back when transphobic customers come in. It's also against federal law to retaliate against complaining about harassment and discrimination, for example by firing someone.

Both managers need to be fired immediately if they haven't already. If they aren't, Pagliacci's owner needs to be prosecuted and, hopefully (but doubtfully) shut down. It wouldn't even be a question if he kept managers who discriminated and retaliated against another protected minority.

Awesome job to Dylan for standing up to this and bringing attention to this. It obviously isn't helping her directly, but it's helping lots of other people now and in the future.
Posted by raku on July 14, 2014 at 8:09 PM · Report this
38
Sorry, but telling a customer that they were rude to you on an earlier visit, and you want an apology-that's likely to get you fired from any customer-service job. If anyone needs to talk to the customer, it's the manager on duty.
Also, being called by the wrong gender-I'm called sir pretty often and am neither male nor trans-isn't that big a deal. Really.
Posted by BakerB on July 14, 2014 at 8:11 PM · Report this
Foggen 39
So this person (A) presents with the name Dylan Paul and (B) cultivates an ambiguous appearance, then gets offended when someone laughs at being corrected? Then accosts the customer 4 days later demanding a personal apology? Then when the customer says "man" it's the employee who's being harassed? You know what's ruder than not selecting a person's chosen gender? Demanding personal apologies for unintended slights. People in the service industry are fired for being rude to customers all the time, and this is a not unreasonable example of it.
Posted by Foggen on July 14, 2014 at 8:16 PM · Report this
40
I don't think demanding an apology ever makes sense. If someone is genuinely sorry, they'll apologize without being asked. If they're not sorry, then the apology means nothing anyway.

I think it makes even less sense in this situation, where the guy's there to get pizza, not to get personal with the employees. She was right to correct him about her gender and it's unfortunate that he laughed, but as other have said, that could have been an involuntary nervous reaction on his part. I've dealt with worse in than this in customer service, like people screaming in my face, and I never demanded an apology.
Posted by Amanda on July 14, 2014 at 8:31 PM · Report this
41
I agree with 8 here (and 8's subsequent comments). It sounds very much like "man" was generic and not a gender assumption. Would the offended person have taken offense if the regular customer had used "dude" instead? If so, then I have some hot news -- offended person needs to find work where serving the public is not involved. I was in retail for years; you don't take it on yourself, as a retail service worker, to confront or lecture the customers, whether they're regulars or not. If you're truly offended, get the manager to deal with it, that's not your job; and if you're easily offended, get a job away from the public.
Posted by Calpete on July 14, 2014 at 8:34 PM · Report this
42
Oh man, I know plenty of folks who could so be that customer...or Rockmama76's (@17) parents. They may have purged cat and chick from their vocabulary, but the man (or dude) lives ever on.
Posted by gnossos on July 14, 2014 at 8:37 PM · Report this
43 Comment Pulled (Trolling) Comment Policy
44
I read her blog. The customer was not harassing her. Dylan is biologically male, identifies as female looks gender neutral. The customer was not harassing Dylan he simply wanted to be left alone and she demanded a verbal explicit apology for the fact he called him "man" even though technically Dylan is. Here is a reality check: using this as leverage to harass people for honest mistakes does not win you allies. I have worked in customer service and have dealt with people far more offensive then this with far more diplomacy.
Posted by hayden c on July 14, 2014 at 9:04 PM · Report this
raku 45
Also, fuck The Stranger for tolerating transphobic comments. You now delete homophobic, racist, and at least egregiously sexist comments. You completely tolerate transphobic comments, even slurs. That's a political and hateful stance.
Posted by raku on July 14, 2014 at 9:06 PM · Report this
46
"Man" has been used in casual speech for emphasis, not gender, since at least the '50s. Maybe it's fading. Being ignorant of that doesn't make you misgendered when someone uses that term, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxMRCENr…
Posted by g on July 14, 2014 at 9:14 PM · Report this
47
Ok, first off, people can be so stupid and cruel. Shame on them.

Second, I'm impressed w/ the owner trying to make it right.

Third, really, I'm just saddened by how mean and awful people can be.

Posted by Kd Love on July 14, 2014 at 9:16 PM · Report this
48
typical uber sensitive,self rightous,self important,over entitled,hypocritically correct,ignorant drama magnet.
big gauges,septum pierced,..hair that looks like red foremans "whipped cream head" persona,and your going to get offended by a term that was im sure not meant to be taken in an offensive way? really?
then you throw a fit?
and the guy probably reacted the way he did because he hadn't meant it that way and was probably a little like,wtf? maybe?
off of your high horse,you ambiguous looking person with a penis who claims to be a woman.
good luck seeking new employment.
I suggest the pizza places and coffee joints on cap hill though,no career based job would hire you for a face to face CS postion based on your appearance and obvious GIGANTIC chip on your shoulder.
sorry if thats a bit too much reality for ya there kid.
Posted by i bet your a liberal arts grad on July 14, 2014 at 9:23 PM · Report this
Post_Mortem 49
This article is even sillier than Dylan Paul for not considering the possibility of the generic, non-gendered use of 'man' (which, by the way, goes back to the word's usage in Old English, and predates its gender-specific meanings). The only person this article reflects well on is Pagliacci's owner.

I get where Miss Dylan Paul is coming from. When a subject is raw for oneself, it is hard to treat possibly innocent remarks that rub the wrong way as anything but an affront. But maybe journalists are supposed to have a little more perspective than that, man.
Posted by Post_Mortem http://pointlessman.blogspot.com/ on July 14, 2014 at 9:25 PM · Report this
seatackled 50
@45
Might just be that there's no one in the office after 5 pm.
Posted by seatackled on July 14, 2014 at 9:26 PM · Report this
51
I read her blog a few hours ago when a friend had a link to it. This article is very different than what she posted. Either she changed it since then or SLOG manipulated facts. She was not told to go to the back to the restaurant if the customer came back. That is an obvious attempt to make it sound like she's Rosa Parks and was told to "go to the back of the bus". She was told she wouldn't have to deal with him and another staff person would help him. He also did not sound malicious or abusive. He sounded like he wanted Dylan to stop harassing him. Many things stated in this article contradict what I read on Dylan's tumblr a few hours ago. These changes in narrative are dishonest and an obvious attempt to frame Dylan taking an unintentional slight and making it into a catastrophe (which is what she did) into making it sound like harassment and/or threats had occurred even though by Dylans own blog account they had not.
Posted by hayden c on July 14, 2014 at 9:29 PM · Report this
52
Agree with Danielle Askini that companies should have a plan in place to deal with any harassment, discrimination, or violent reactions their trans employees may face from the public. Kudos to Pagliacci's for making this an occasion to move forward on that.

I'm interested to hear what folks think Pagliacci's should have done differently in regards to this customer. It sounds like Dylan wants him banned from the store and that seems kind of extreme to me. Is this a lifetime ban? It sounds like the customer has no desire to continue the feud or have a conversation about proper use of pronouns. The manager already spoke to him. He didn't use any slurs or throw a fit. Should he not be able to get pizza there?

Posted by MovingOn on July 14, 2014 at 9:38 PM · Report this
53
Pathetic. Pagliacci's should have stuck to their guns and kept her fired. If they're going to sacrifice their business to Tumblr social justice pandering, throwing out paying customers for the sake of someone who clearly doesn't know how to get along with others or behave professionally, I don't see them staying open much longer.
Posted by ThirteenthLetter on July 14, 2014 at 9:44 PM · Report this
fletc3her 54
I'll remember this next time I think about eating at Pagliacci's and won't.
Posted by fletc3her on July 14, 2014 at 9:48 PM · Report this
55 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
fletc3her 56
Yegads my comment is daft. Somehow I trimmed that down to incomprehensibility, which is my usual habit, but wow it reads wrong.

I was trying to say that the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I'll probably take a break from Pag's for a while. Usually I'm so happy to go there, but this whole thing is so ugly.

Cheers to the owner for doing the right thing though.
Posted by fletc3her on July 14, 2014 at 9:58 PM · Report this
57
I drop "man" and "dude" casually too.

But I also like to think people would possess more tact and awareness about it in inappropriate situations, such as a when you offend someone of their gender; and if it's a slip (it happens), you would be able to own up to it. I can't believe that somehow, that's an acceptable excuse.

Posted by themightywoozie on July 14, 2014 at 9:59 PM · Report this
58
@37/45, have you ever actually worked anywhere? In this world, I mean.
Posted by sarah70 on July 14, 2014 at 10:05 PM · Report this
Dr. Z 59
Ansel,

This is the problem with how you approach writing. To you, the world is divided into two camps: good people oppressed by bad people, and your mission is to advocate for the oppressed good guy. The problem is that you are taking it upon yourself to decide for everyone who is good and bad - without bothering to ask very many questions.

There are more than two sides, and your posts would be richer and more interesting if you recognized that.

I've been openly gay for over 35 years. Several friends of mine have been fired for being gay; some have been beaten up for it. I get what antigay employment looks like, in many forms that it can take.

This wasn't one of them. She wasn't doing her job. That is the problem here. When you work retail you have to be careful how to handle customer harassment of employees. It needs to be clear-cut.

My husband works for Trader Joes. One day he was working the checkout line when an old-country babushka came thru. She was upset by my husband's gender-ambiguous appearance. She demanded to know whether my husband was male or female. Taken by surprise, he asked: "Which one do you want me to be?"

This set her off and she started shrieking curses at him until my husband's manager (a native of NJ) leaned over and said to her in a command voice: HEY! LADY! NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK!"

That shut her up.

My point being: at no time was my husband rude to this woman. He did his job in a professional manner and left the escalation to his manager, who appropriately dealt with the harassment.

The employee in the situation you described tried to deal with the harassement by herself, which was a mistake. She should have reported the harassment to her manager first, and give him or her an opportunity to address it. Only then - if they failed to address it - would this have constituted a hostile work environment as you are suggesting.

If you would bother to inquire deeper and interview more people you might often find there is a richer and more complex story to tell. Reporters who divide the world into black and white - regardless of their political orientation - are not doing their readers a service.
More...
Posted by Dr. Z on July 14, 2014 at 10:06 PM · Report this
seatackled 60
@52

I don't think the post says that Matt Galvin, the owner, spoke to the customer, but the ban he mentions sounds conditional; if you act like this, then you are not welcome here. I don't think we really have enough information to know if the customer should be able to get pizza there again--and it's really up to the company and the law.
Posted by seatackled on July 14, 2014 at 10:10 PM · Report this
61
I feel strongly that the term 'cat' is shamefully underused as a salutation and needs to be reintroduced into the contemporary vocabulary immediately. Additionally it should be amended to 'hep cat' whenever possible.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
Posted by tiny direwolf on July 14, 2014 at 10:11 PM · Report this
seatackled 62
I guess people do use those masculine terms for everyone. The one that bugs me is "you guys" spoken to me and my senior citizen mother when we're together. But what bugs me isn't so much the gendering but the idea of someone in their 20s addressing someone old enough to be their grandmother as if she's a peer instead of an elder.
Posted by seatackled on July 14, 2014 at 10:15 PM · Report this
63
@59 right on. This case sounds very murky, where management and the employee could have handled it better. Pagliacci is queer friendly and I know other trans friends who work there and say their response has been good. I know we're used to fighting 'the man' when it comes to corporations but in this case I think Pagliacci made good. Especially after offering to rehire her, and give sensitivity training, she has no injury and no case to take to any human rights commission.
Posted by hifiandrew on July 14, 2014 at 10:34 PM · Report this
64
It's really cool that this person decided not to give the customer the benefit of the doubt and actually started shit with them the next time they came in. Sexual dimorphism exists in humans and just because you identify as a particular gender doesn't give you the right to get righteous while representing a company. She absolutely deserved to be fired for starting shit.
Posted by fuqe on July 14, 2014 at 10:50 PM · Report this
65
Let me grab my fawkin' violin!
Posted by Erok on July 14, 2014 at 10:51 PM · Report this
66
Dylan Paul's whining makes me want to buy more Pagliacci pizzas than I already do.

I used to work with a woman who was often mistaken for a man. She understood that people would make that mistake on occasion and, when it was appropriate, she would politely correct them. No big deal, no demands for apologies, not threats, and NO WHINING. Ms. Paul needs to mellow out and learn that people do not always conform to her expectations. ESPECIALLY if she hopes to continue working in a customer service position.
Posted by Dingle Berries on July 14, 2014 at 10:51 PM · Report this
evolume 67
I sometimes call my daughters and wife "man" or "dude." My 6 year old daughter has a friend that sometimes calls her "bro". These have become terms of endearment that have little to do with gender.
Posted by evolume http://twitter.com/evolume on July 14, 2014 at 11:10 PM · Report this
68
because all you motherfuckers were there in person and can accurately assess the situation, the tone and the intent! That's amazing how you can all time travel and relive the events in other people's lives and shit.
Posted by stilettov on July 14, 2014 at 11:54 PM · Report this
69
A further complaint after Pag's offered Dylan the job back and instituted sensitivity training is thoroughly out of line. They made a mistake and are making every effort to make good on it. Additionally, their initial response seems reasonable to me. They effectively gave her permission to avoid doing her job for a bit because this guy made her uncomfortable. "Get away from him and get somebody else to handle him," is a good way to resolve the situation such that she can be comfortable at her place of work, and this dude can keep giving the business money (which ostensibly is a thing both this dude and the business want to have happen).

The customer clearly fucked up here though. Maybe he was innocently using "man" in a non-gendered sense, maybe he wasn't. It doesn't really matter. If you make somebody feel shitty about who they are - even if it's on accident - you should probably apologize. It's not they hard to say "Oh shit I didn't mean it like that, sorry," or even, "Oh my bad. Sorry." It's going to make the other person feel a ton better, and costs you nothing. Did Dylan make a mistake by demanding an apology? Maybe, but that's not the point. The whole thing could have been sidestepped if this guy made a choice to give a shit about a fellow human being.
Posted by tired and true on July 15, 2014 at 12:09 AM · Report this
70
She has every right to address a customer when she has a problem with them. She sounded very polite when explaining to the customer how she felt about their interaction and instead of saying "hey, I didn't realize what I said offended you" and apologizing, he said it again. He knew she had a problem with it and blatantly ignore her polite request. I understand that man is used in a very generic way, but it can be offensive to people. Just like using the term "guy (s)". I'm glad I work in a customer service place that wouldn't allow this. My manager allows us to stand up for ourselves and others and gives us the right to express our concerns/problems with our customers and will back us up every time. I guess I'm just lucky to work for a place that follows anti-discrimination laws and supports/trusts it's employees. It's sad more businesses aren't like that. Just because someone is paying for a service doesn't give them the right to be disrespectful or rude.
Posted by anonymous11287 on July 15, 2014 at 12:29 AM · Report this
Ray Randell 71
This is a crazy story. Life in Seattle must be pretty easy if pizza shop employees can demand apologies for perceived slights from by their customers, and expect to keep their job. I'm sure Starbucks can't WAIT to hire this drama queen.

That pizza shop must be flooded with customers every minute of the day if they can afford turn away business so easily.
Posted by Ray Randell http://superunderwearperverts.blogspot.com/ on July 15, 2014 at 12:38 AM · Report this
72
Just out of curiousity, why does this article contradict what Dylan herself posted? Why was the original use of the 'misgendering' not included? Why was the 2nd 'misgendering' included which specifically shows it was colloquial in use and not deliberately malicious?
Posted by Too many plot holes on July 15, 2014 at 12:52 AM · Report this
drhackenbush 73
Legal action? That ain't gonna go nowhere. A public mea culpa, retraining, and an offer to rehire and pursue better corporate polices is literally the best result she was going to get. Based on her original blogpost about this i got the distinct impression as well that this woman was fired not for being transgendered but for going public after her dispute with the manager and badmouthing pagliacci in front of customers. If thats the case, there are no grounds for a lawsuit. But you know, rock on dylan, way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Posted by drhackenbush on July 15, 2014 at 1:17 AM · Report this
74
I've always found the best response to intentional misgendering is reciprocity.

He says: "I don’t really care what’s happening in your life, man, I just need my pizza.”

I say: "Whatever you say, lady. I'm sure whatever man you're ordering from will be glad to get you a slice. Good to know you don't care, ma'am. Who's next?"
Posted by Reciprocity on July 15, 2014 at 2:11 AM · Report this
75
If you read her Facebook explanation (on reddit) she admits that she had already told her manager that she was quitting. So she wasn't fired. It's sad the owner has to bow to this selfish child's made up persecution. Of course this store is on broadway so it's incredibly smart to do what he is doing.
Posted by PhilPhilphil on July 15, 2014 at 2:14 AM · Report this
Fire Aim Ready 76
Can you say "pathetically self absorbed human being"? I knew you could.

Dylan, it's much easier to wear slippers than to carpet the planet.

Posted by Fire Aim Ready http://www.4groundmusic.org on July 15, 2014 at 2:45 AM · Report this
Cato the Younger Younger 77
My take away from transgender is that they are all super easy to piss off and offend if you say anything or look at them wrong. I think it's best to simply avoid them completely to protect you and them from anything that will be contrived as abuse.
Posted by Cato the Younger Younger on July 15, 2014 at 3:19 AM · Report this
78
First World Problem
Posted by MikeB on July 15, 2014 at 3:59 AM · Report this
79
This is a clear case of discrimination. A biological female or make would have list their job immediately after they initiated a confrontation with a customer for a perceived prior slight, and they would not have been hired back. This person was offered a new job entirely because of their transgender status. If you can't deal with idiots you have no pace in retail.
Posted by highside on July 15, 2014 at 6:04 AM · Report this
80 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
81 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy
Matt from Denver 82
@ 37, your crusade against Pagliacci for not providing the perfect vegan pizza is well documented. I suggest that your prejudice disqualifies your opinion here.
Posted by Matt from Denver on July 15, 2014 at 6:46 AM · Report this
83
obviously the asshole should have been fired,

it is sad to see the owner squirming and cravenly trying to avoid the predictable but totally unjustified PC shitstorm.
Posted by obviously the asshole should have been fired on July 15, 2014 at 8:25 AM · Report this
84
Wait, retail and food service workers can backtalk to customers whenever they want now? Sweet!
Posted by Shut Up And Serve Me My Food, Man on July 15, 2014 at 8:40 AM · Report this
85
Dylan Dylan Dylan. You are a young and tender soul, just starting out in the world and learning that some people are inconsiderate jerks. I was a teenager in Mississippi in the mid-70s. I was chubby with freckles and curly hair when the societal norm for girls was thin with long straight hair. I couldn't stand disco music and and I didn't believe in racial discrimination. My life was made a living hell because of it. I was taunted, ostracized, and beaten up by a football player. Twice I was sexually assaulted and horrible rumors were spread about me. I wasted years hating myself because I allowed these people to project their hatred onto me. Now I love my curls and curves and who I've grown to be.

You are outside the norm. You are different. There will ALWAYS be people who will stare at you, laugh at you, treat you with less than the respect you think you deserve. How you choose to respond to that will determine your quality of life for the rest of your life. You are going to have to pick your battles carefully; otherwise your entire life is going to be made miserable by those who don't approve.

Gender identity aside, you are in a service industry and you are going to have to deal with asshole customers. It's one of the main requirements of the job. The sooner you learn how to do that and not take personal offense, the happier you will be. Best of luck to you going forward.
Posted by twinkie223 on July 15, 2014 at 9:12 AM · Report this
86
My grad program suppressed multiple sexual harassment claims by trans gendered students because they didn't want to deal with the reputation hit. This stuff happens a lot.
Posted by Spike1382 on July 15, 2014 at 9:37 AM · Report this
87 Comment Pulled (Trolling) Comment Policy
88
So if your manager decides your sexual harassment claim is unwarranted, then you can be fired for it? That's an awesome precedent. Morons. All the way down.
Posted by Spike1382 on July 15, 2014 at 9:48 AM · Report this
89
You can be fired for trying to kick out a customer who hadn't crossed any kind of line. I don't think the guy meant any harm in the first place, and starting off his next visit with a demand for an apology was not an effective (or appropriate) tactic. She should have let a manager handle it, if it had to be handled at all.

Firing might have been too much, but a write-up would have suited.
Posted by clashfan on July 15, 2014 at 10:12 AM · Report this
Post_Mortem 90
@88, it wasn't sexual harassment, that wasn't even the claim Dylan Paul made, just plain harassment. More, she wasn't fired for filing a bogus claim, but for trash-talking the company on the floor to other employees and in earshot of customers. Way to show strong reading comprehension while complaining about idiots.
Posted by Post_Mortem http://pointlessman.blogspot.com/ on July 15, 2014 at 10:20 AM · Report this
91
Seems like someone forgot to shed the male privilege she was raised with at the trans door. Only someone raised as a white man would be so "shocked" that her "dignity was something so easy to dismiss." Welcome to womanhood!
Posted by gimmeabreak on July 15, 2014 at 10:22 AM · Report this
DOUG. 92
What 24-year-old wants to be called "ma'am"?
Posted by DOUG. http://www.dougsvotersguide.com on July 15, 2014 at 10:24 AM · Report this
93
Can we ban MiofInfo5? Their sole contribution in this thread has been hate speech.
Posted by Hanoumatoi on July 15, 2014 at 10:35 AM · Report this
Backyard Bombardier 94
@93: "Every" thread.

FTFY.
Posted by Backyard Bombardier on July 15, 2014 at 10:41 AM · Report this
6 95
Well said, @85.
Posted by 6 on July 15, 2014 at 10:43 AM · Report this
96
I am VERY supportive of the T in the LGBT, but this was a WAY overreaction by the employee. I don't need to be corrected by an employee of an establishment that I am frequenting, unless I did something hideously disrespectful. Way TOO much drama. She should have remained FIRED!
Posted by baldman on July 15, 2014 at 10:43 AM · Report this
97
Ansel has become an expert of rustling up this low wage drama queens and spinning their bullshit tales. Always with stupid facial piercings, tattoos and weed whacker haircuts. A parade of losers who will always be stuck in low wage jobs. $15 an hr won't save their asses either.
Posted by I identify as a cat call me pussy! on July 15, 2014 at 11:02 AM · Report this
98
Sad this happened.. And yes, you can say all you like that anybody in a customer service job gets crap from people all the time, so deal with it. But that doesn't make it ok. I can totally see why she would want to engage this one on a legal level.
So she trash-talked Pagliacci's, in a moment of hurt. They fixed it. They wanted her back. Good for them. It's not Pagliacci's at fault here now, they did a decent job, once the problem had been brought up to top level management.

It's the ongoing factor of the effect that this type of abuse has on a person, the daily wearing down of your soul, when it happens a lot, over time. Women (cis and trans) get abusive crap from guys like this all the time.

I am glad she's doing something that draws attention to it.

Good for Pag's, that makes me want to eat their pizza.
And good for Dylan Paul for not wanting to effing take it any more. I have been in the position where I have had to shut up and just take it, for the sake of keeping a job, etc. and that truly sucks.
Posted by Chandira on July 15, 2014 at 11:07 AM · Report this
99
Does Pagliacci sell whine?
Posted by I identified as a cat call me pussy. on July 15, 2014 at 11:20 AM · Report this
100
I once worked years with Michelle, who became Mikhail. I never had an issue with his change and he knew it, we discussed it openly and he knew I respected him in every way. BUT...for the life of me, I could not stop with the 'her' reference in casual conversation, I would constantly correct myself within seconds and apologize.

It wasn't an insult, it was the deep seeded gender identification (think first impression psychology) I had from knowing Michelle for years. Because this was never done intentionally he laughed and gave me a pass on it...especially after a couple years of apologies and self-corrections. Psychologically we imprint people in our minds in specific groups...Dylan could easily have appeared to be male to the customer and that's where he locked her in at in his head. Especially when you consider it's a casual business relationship, the overt effort to identify this person really isn't there.

Regardless of what the intent of the customer was, purposeful, negligent, ignorant or colloquial, coming back and demanding an apology is just a doomed effort. You're not going to get 'satisfaction' out of the apology, you're now just seeking retribution...that isn't high on the customer service to-do list.

The customer may even have corrected his behavior on his own, had he made a gender reference in the future...he was never given the opportunity, he was confronted over something he likely didn't even remember.

If I was called out for the hundreds of times I called a woman "Man" or "Dude" and had an apology demanded of me I'd be far more anti-social than the customer. He just wanted his pizza...
Posted by Bigwave425 on July 15, 2014 at 11:28 AM · Report this
101
Misgendering someone is appearance based sexual harassment. Closeted female trans "privilege" is not male privilege, unless cis male privilege leads to a 40%+ attempted suicide rate.
Posted by Spike1382 on July 15, 2014 at 11:34 AM · Report this
Nuala 102
No employee in ANY establishment should ever tolerate abuse from customers and management should enforce respect for their employees, whether that means lecturing the customer and ordering them to cease their abuse, to ejecting the customer from the premises and filing legal charges for harassing employees trying to do their jobs and creating a hostile work environment.

Time to show these disrespectful jerks that the customer is NOT always right, particularly when they arrogantly deny the rights of LGBTIQ employees.
Posted by Nuala on July 15, 2014 at 11:54 AM · Report this
103
i self Identify as "lord Fauntleroy, the all-knowing one" and would like to put
in my notice that all ;far and wide; are now to refer to me as such. non-compliance
will result in a day long sensitivity training course. good day
Posted by lord on July 15, 2014 at 11:54 AM · Report this
104
@101 how non-normative of you.
Posted by Trans-cat on July 15, 2014 at 11:54 AM · Report this
Unregistered User 105
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man
Posted by Unregistered User on July 15, 2014 at 11:58 AM · Report this
106
A customer made you upset?.....she should grow some balls.
Posted by dude wheres my car on July 15, 2014 at 12:31 PM · Report this
T 107
As @85 said, knowing how to pick one's battles is a very valuable life skill. If Dylan is going to take to task everyone who calls her "man," be it colloquially or antagonistically, she's going to become a very negative, bitter person. This whole thing got blown WAY out of proportion, and that's more the fault of the manager than anyone else. There will always be asshole customers, and her supervisor should have had her back, not fired her. The manager needs to get the boot or at the very least, a demotion, as they don't have any business managing other people.

But now she's planning to file a complaint after the owner of Pagliacci's has done everything he could to right the situation? That's dumb, and a waste of everyone's time. If she wants to continue doing good, she should join up with a trans-focused nonprofit or something.
Posted by T on July 15, 2014 at 1:01 PM · Report this
108
@106 errr, how d'ya think they make the meatball special at Pagiacci? With the offended tears and testicles of the the sexually confused.
Posted by I identify as a cat call me pussy on July 15, 2014 at 1:13 PM · Report this
109
@88 Is this the only comment in the whole thread that mentions how ludicrous it is that an incident like this can lead to someone being fired? Saying 'Pagliacci doesn't care'? Heh?

I must say I am not terribly surprised by that however. I have a good friend who is a chef so I am well aware just how shitty restaurant employees are treated, especially kitchen staff. Indeed if there is one part of the work force above all others that desperately needs to be unionized, it would be restaurant workers.
Posted by Rhizome on July 15, 2014 at 1:27 PM · Report this
110
the guy just wanted some pizza.
Posted by whiskeypony on July 15, 2014 at 1:33 PM · Report this
111
Grow some thicker goddamn skin. We are a society of pussies!
Posted by seatownr on July 15, 2014 at 1:59 PM · Report this
112
Turn the outrage meter up to TRANNY!
Posted by Do my testicles make me look butch? on July 15, 2014 at 2:02 PM · Report this
113 Comment Pulled (Trolling) Comment Policy
114
"Ansel, I saw my boss fuck prepubescent children up the ass in his office!"

Do you need proof if he works at Uber?
Posted by Identify as a cat. Call me pussy on July 15, 2014 at 2:32 PM · Report this
115
I'm all for refusing to serve someone who's being abusive, regardless of what motivates it (transphobia, misogyny, or just general assholery), but it sounds like Dylan overreacted and then overstepped her bounds. It should be up to the manager to deny service, and I'd have a hard time criticizing them if they had a quiet word with this customer but didn't 86 him for what he said. This sort of misunderstanding is within the definition of stuff you have to be prepared for when dealing with the public. There's no way it meets a legal definition of harassment.

It's really cool of Matt Gavin to take this as seriously as he is. I'm not sure he's not overreacting, too, but that's his right as owner. If you have to err to one side or the other, erring to the side of promoting respect for all your employees is the right way to go. It beats what the power of business owners is usually used for.

Dylan really ought to recognize that and ease up.
Posted by Centrists Rule the World today on July 15, 2014 at 2:52 PM · Report this
116
Pull that kind of crap in my cab, and you're walking. My boss will back that up, too.
Posted by eddieVroom on July 15, 2014 at 4:35 PM · Report this
117
@109, I think someone else hinted at it somewhere up there. Maybe you have to witness a couple trans* people's lives be shattered by daily harassment about their appearance before you develop empathy for situations like this.
Posted by Spike1382 on July 15, 2014 at 4:37 PM · Report this
118
@59 FTW
Posted by I Got Nuthin' on July 15, 2014 at 5:17 PM · Report this
119
116, not if your boss or you like your job. It is a criminal act in this state to discriminate based on gender or sexuality. Just ask Arlene's Flowers & Gifts how fighting this is going. Or you can look at Elane Photography v. Willock, the Klein case in Oregon, or the Phillips case in Colorado. Given the massive amount of evidence that this is a crime, and even considered such in places like New Mexico, I think your boss would fire you. If not, his boss would fire you both.
Posted by Really, "eddieVroom"? on July 15, 2014 at 5:49 PM · Report this
120
Just about midway through my shift working the til at Pag’s he showed up again, waiting at the slice bar for service. I stepped over to him and said, “The last time you were in here I corrected you on my gender and you laughed at me. That was really rude, and I’d like you to apologize.”

He replied, “I don’t really care what’s happening in your life, man, I just need my pizza.”

____________

How is this harassment, exactly? Rudeness is now considered harassment?
Posted by Escapee from S. Idaho on July 15, 2014 at 6:05 PM · Report this
121
@120, the second use of man, intentionally to harass, after being corrected, is harassment and discrimination based on gender. Rudeness without the gender based insult would have been fine. The second use of "man" is what makes it harassment.
Posted by Does this really need to be explained in 2014? on July 15, 2014 at 6:22 PM · Report this
122
@121, referring to Dylan as a "he" after being corrected would be disrespectful, and continuing to do so would be harassing her. But, again, the "hey, man" usage does NOT imply gender. It just doesn't. So yes, Dylan should be respected at work. But should she be able to demand that someone change their speaking patterns if they have nothing to do with gender? I don't think so. If "man" and "dude" are ingrained in your speech, you're not going to be able to just drop them in an instant, especially under stress, so that second "man" seems yet again probably unrelated to gender. Did this guy even understand the complaint based on these brief interactions?

And since what seems to have happened is someone said "thanks, man," was corrected with "actually, I'm a 'ma'am'," which may have just confused him, to have someone march up and get in his face a few days later is pretty confrontational. Dylan probably is not aware that no gender disrespect was most likely initially intended, but again, this really doesn't sound like "harassment." More like, and totally understandably, if you're a hammer, everything does start to look like a nail.
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 6:52 PM · Report this
123
122, the use of "man" does not imply gender? Continuing to do so twice (with a span of four days between incidents) is harassment by your admission, yet somehow not harassment in this case when it is exactly what happened? Nobody is asking anybody to change their speaking patterns when they have nothing to do with gender. If this was a case of "man" being used as common vernacular, the accused had two occasions when they could have mentioned that. Instead, they reacted with hostility. What is stressful about getting pizza during lunch on a community college campus? It does not matter whether the accused understood they were committing a crime or not. A person doesn't get away with murder or assault because they didn't realize they were committing a crime. You're just making pathetic excuses.

"if you're a hammer, everything does start to look like a nail."

While I'd love to respond to this, my urge to self-Godwin will be restrained. Suffice to say this line of logic can be used to excuse all kinds of atrocities if used in the manner you are attempting.
Posted by Come on, people. This is 2014, not 1984. on July 15, 2014 at 7:10 PM · Report this
124
"@120, the second use of man, intentionally to harass, after being corrected, is harassment and discrimination"

Err, it's not discrimination in any legal way. It's perfectly legal and quite frankly the perfect response to this drama queen.
Posted by I identify as a cat call me pussy on July 15, 2014 at 7:13 PM · Report this
125
Oh lordy, call the speech po'lice!
Posted by What if I call him 'it'? on July 15, 2014 at 7:16 PM · Report this
126
So what is he decides he's a cat next week, do I have to call him Pussy and put kitty litter out?
Posted by Or would that make him crazy? on July 15, 2014 at 7:18 PM · Report this
127
@123:

I am saying that the first time was "thanks, man" and does NOT sound like it had anything to do with gender. When the reply to that was "actually, it's ma'am" the customer may have been confused and laughed because of that, or out of embarassment at being mistaken. Because, again, when does "thanks, man" have anything to do with gender? Are we to require people who are corrected out of the blue for something they haven't done, around a sensitive topic like gender, to have the perfect response in this unexpected situation?

The second usage sounds like the same thing. The customer didn't say "sir" or anything like that..."man" was used in the same way it was initially. Which, again, sounds like it could STILL have been unintentional. He STILL might have had no idea what Dylan was going on about. You seem to be saying that this customer should have taken this opportunity to instruct Dylan on how "man" is used in casual speech. I'm saying I think he was probably not aware of what had gone down the first time, so to walk in and have someone get in your face and say, in a possibly agitated voice, "you were rude and I would like an apology" was probably off-putting and confusing and if you didn't think you'd committed any slight, then saying "I don't care what's going on in your life, man" sounds a lot more like "hey, what's your problem?" then "I refuse to acknowledge your correct gender.

Murder, really? Jesus. All we're talking about here is some guy saying "thanks, man" and an employee who thought that had something to do with gender.

Please do respond to the hammer/nail thing if it upset you so much. You know what that analogy means? I didn't invent it. And I said QUITE UNDERSTANDABLY, as in, I think the response is probably unjustified but I can see how she'd react that way anyway. As in, if you are trans and have had issues with people mistaking your gender and being rude to you and disrespecting you, then even in a situation like this where no misgendering is intended, you might still perceive it. What's so wrong with that statement? And "atrocities"? Again, "THANKS, MAN" is what we're talking about here. The first response, all we know is that Dylan says he laughed. We don't know if that was truly hostile or more as I speculated above. The second one may have been hostility, or it may have been any number of things - confusion, defensiveness for someone being angry over something that maybe didn't actually happen, etc.
More...
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 7:26 PM · Report this
128
" committing a crime"

What crime, exactly, did the customer committ? Failure to translate Calfornia surfer speech into stick-up-ass, politically correct Seattle speech?

Welcome to Seattle's Trans-Taliban.
Posted by The flaming TTs on July 15, 2014 at 7:31 PM · Report this
129
@124, the use of the term Drama Queen towards Dylan Paul in his presence would also be harassment based on sexuality or gender identity. It is also discrimination, and is considered such in at least 4 states in the Union (Washington, Oregon, New Mexico, and Colorado). Three of those states have already had judges rule to that effect, with at least one using up all appeals and having their case thrown out by the state and Appellate Courts.
Posted by Not calling you anything, even with consent on July 15, 2014 at 7:31 PM · Report this
130
" It is also discrimination, and is considered such in at least 4 states in the Union (Washington, Oregon, New Mexico, and Colorado"

Horseshit. It's protected free speech. This customer is guilty of no crimes you moron, in this state or any other.
Posted by Dumb Fucker on July 15, 2014 at 7:34 PM · Report this
131
TL/DR: There's no way the initial "thanks, man" meant the customer thought Dylan was a guy. So everything that came after seems as likely to be confusion/embarrassment/awkwardness than hostility, and in the case of the "I don't care what's going on in your life, man," possibly hostility, or possibly being miffed at being accosted as a hatemonger for no reason. I don't think Dylan should be declared a victim here just because she perceived a slight where maybe none was intended or even technically delivered.
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 7:36 PM · Report this
132
I can call you anything I fucking like. Faggot, poof, katoey, tranny, drama queen, nancy boy and there's no law to stop me. No cop would arrest me. No prosecutor would charge me. Learn the law you dumbshit.
Posted by Ducking Frama Queen on July 15, 2014 at 7:41 PM · Report this
133
#127, when does "thanks, man" NOT have everything to do with gender? The perfect response is not required, no. But that does not justify harassment based on sexual identity.
Nobody but you cares if this was intentional or not. It was. It happened. Who cares what the motivation was? We have means, opportunity, and evidence. That's easily enough to convict, even in criminal court.
I am not saying that the accused should have tried to enforce a gender dichotomous paradigm on the victim. That would be stupid and disingenuous. The accused should have apologized. Trying to say "It's okay, it's just casual speech." is precisely the kind of backhanded harassment that anti-discrimination law is designed to prevent.
Yes, murder. Crime is crime, full stop. That you choose to quantify the level of criminality, for whatever reason, has nothing to do with me or the behavior in question. Your moral relativity has no place here.
Using you hammer/nail analogy, one could justify the Holocaust. "If you're a Jew, every internment camp looks like a concentration camp." "If you're a black person, every white person looks like a racist." Your analogy is awful. It is woefully ignorant of labelling to negate, and in point of fact seems to support it. In short, the foundation of modern psychology would suggest it is a dangerous and anti-social position, one that encourages sociopathy and diminishes the community.
There is nothing understandable about the level of dysfunction you advocate. In point of fact, it is downright inhumane.
#128, you also seem to want to hand-wave harassment away after projecting your own person on that of the accused. I don't care whose speech it is where. That justifies nothing. It saddens me to even see people trying to justify this as colloquial speech, as if that had any bearing on the act itself.
More...
Posted by Losing faith in the humanity of my fellow people. on July 15, 2014 at 7:47 PM · Report this
134
I love how no one thinks a Trans* Woman is capable of rationally assessing someone's tone and intent and concluding they are being derisive.
Posted by Spike1382 on July 15, 2014 at 7:48 PM · Report this
135
"is precisely the kind of backhanded harassment that anti-discrimination law is designed to prevent."

What law? Please site the law and code number.

"The accused"

Accused in what court?
Posted by Let me guess, you're not a lawyer on July 15, 2014 at 8:18 PM · Report this
136
@133, are you not familiar with "man" as non-gendered speech? I thought I was pretty clear about what I meant, and a few others have mentioned it too. I'm not trying to excuse anything. I'm saying it TRULY has NOTHING to do with gender in this context! Watch "The Big Lebowski" and "Up In Smoke" and some beatnik movies and get back to us, maybe?
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 8:30 PM · Report this
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 8:30 PM · Report this
138
@130, this is already settled law in Oregon, New Mexico, and Colorado. It was in New Mexico that the case was denied by both the State Supreme and Federal Appellate Courts. New Mexico didn't even have a law protecting alternative sexualities against discrimination when the suit was filed and they still ruled in favor of these kinds of laws.

Bullshit it is protected free speech. It is no more protected than saying "I'm going to kill you, you GD N-gg-r!" (sans censoring) or "Fire!" in a crowded theatre.

@131, how do you know? Were you there? Even if what you are saying is true, it still doesn't change the fact of the matter. The harassment happened. What the customer thought is completely irrelevant.

@132, if you said as much to my face, I'd call the cops and pursue civil litigation. And I'd win, too. I could use the money. Where shall we meet? BTW, the state AG has already prosecuted for similar. Not only would prosecutors charge you, they already have charged similar, and are in the process of convicting for similar in this state right now.

@135, it is buried in RCW 19.86. The same law that protects consumers from being harassed by companies over their sexual orientation also prohibits employees from being harassed over their sexual orientation while it work. It is deep in the legalese, but it is a matter of settled law. The AG can prosecute, but the litigation is civil in nature. Still, a finding of guilt by the AG does have credence in those legal proceedings. How the AG determines guilt in these cases isn't mentioned in 19.86.
Posted by This is Seattle. We're smarter than this, right? on July 15, 2014 at 8:36 PM · Report this
139
@144, I don't think anyone is saying a trans woman is incapable. But are you saying that a trans woman is automatically assumed to be in the right?
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 8:37 PM · Report this
140
@138, the customer may have thought Dylan was a guy. I'm saying "thanks, man" doesn't indicate that. Not sure how I can be more clear.
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 8:38 PM · Report this
141
@138, I'm also saying that IF my alternate interpretation is accurate (who knows), then the harassment DIDN'T HAPPEN. A genderless "thanks, man" is not harassment. Later, responding rudely after being accosted for something you didn't do (again, IF my alternate interpretation is correct) is conceivably understandable. If someone is being unreasonable and in your face, they don't get a free pass just because they perceive harassment where none is being delivered. Again, IF. I don't see how this exchange is being elevated to the level you're elevating it to. Can you truly not see what I'm saying? That the guy could only be guilty of being short with someone who got in his face and got confrontational about something that wasn't even real? (IF.)
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 8:43 PM · Report this
142
In New Orleans, men and women of various ages call other men and women "darlin'." If I went around New Orleans demanding they stop and claiming I was being sexually harassed, that would just be ridiculous. I think asking people to wipe non-gendered "man" or "dude" from their vocabulary and insisting on applying meaning that isn't there is similarly pointless. You should expect someone to refer to you by the correct gender pronouns after correcting them, if they're a decent person. But asking that they desist from saying things that don't refer to your gender like "thanks, man" is asking too much, I think. And if you think it DOES refer to gender when used in that way, there's nothing else I can say to convince you. But I'm not making it up. Good night!
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 8:50 PM · Report this
143
'Bullshit it is protected free speech. It is no more protected than saying "I'm going to kill you, you GD N-gg-r!" (sans censoring) or "Fire!" in a crowded theatre".

Wait, are you really that stupid you really think that me calling you a drama queen, poof or tranny is illegal?

Again, show me the Washington State law. Give me the RCW # please the shows me calling you a drama queen is illegal. Or calling a tranny a man is illegal.
Posted by Because it isn't illegal and any US state on July 15, 2014 at 9:29 PM · Report this
144
"@135, it is buried in RCW 19.86. The same law that protects consumers from being harassed by companies over their sexual orientation also prohibits employees from being harassed over their sexual orientation while it work"

That law doesn't protect you from me, a member of the public coming into business and calling you an Nancy boy. It has no legal jurisdiction over that. The business would have a right to not serve me but it could be prosecuted for calling you a 'drama queen' or tranny. Otherwise Dan Savage would be in jail.
Posted by Learn some law on July 15, 2014 at 9:34 PM · Report this
145
@140, you've made yourself very clear. You've also shown an inability to then explain why it happened twice. You've also shown more concern for the mindset of the accused than for the victim. You've shown us quite a bit, really. Maybe a little more than you realized.

Even if your alternate interpretation is correct, it changes nothing. That you continue to shove a tangential hypothetical down our throats in a vain attempt to justify the unjustifiable has also shown us all quite a bit. There is nothing genderless about "Thanks, man", and to further support that ludicrous assertion is to dig yourself deeper and deeper into the hole you appear to enjoy being in. That you are trying to "convince me" smacks of gaslighting. I assure you I am not attempting to do the same. Rather, I am pointing out your dysfunction to the other readers, so that they may not follow your lead.

@144, I suggest you read RCW 19.86 a lot closer. Pagliacci's did, and they are coming down on the manager in charge at the time because they know how right I am. They're trying to avoid being sued by the way they handled this.

Try to look at this from an adult perspective for a change. The owner of a medium-sized chain business is personally getting involved, saying they would have thrown the customer out. Why would he say or do that if the customer didn't do anything wrong? Why risk the PR hit? Businesses follow the CYA model. They don't cover up just for shits and giggles. Millions of dollars and hundreds of employees have already said you're wrong better than I ever could.
Posted by Yes, go. Learn some law. Please. on July 15, 2014 at 9:57 PM · Report this
146
@145, gaslighting? Really? What I am saying is TRUE. People DO NOT mean "thanks, male person" or "hey, male person" or "oh, male person, I am so tired" or whatnot. They just don't. For me to make that simple assertion to you means that I'm some nefarious trans-hating monster? I have "dysfunction"? What the hell, man? Which I just typed automatically without thinking about its application to this topic, seriously. I'm sure you'll accuse me of something there too. Sigh.
Posted by g on July 15, 2014 at 10:12 PM · Report this
147
@146
"gaslighting? Really? What I am saying is TRUE."
Better proof could not have been written by anybody.
"I have "dysfunction"? What the hell, man? Which I just typed automatically without thinking about its application to this topic, seriously."
Your train of thought goes beyond illogical and irrational, reaching the realm of either the absurd or the dysfunctional. You are either so out of touch with reality you don't know what you are saying, or you are trolling on the internet.
Are you trolling?
Posted by Yes, gaslighting. You just did it again. on July 15, 2014 at 10:53 PM · Report this
148

this type is shit is what happens when you let the freaks of society think they are normal.

Dylan belongs in some serious therapy or a nuthouse.
your confusion over your sexuality is NOT my fucking problem.
and for gods sake, pull that silly shit out of your face.

reading the comments has cemented the fact that seattle is truly home of the biggest oversensitive pussies on the planet. you dont even realize how pathetic you are.

Posted by hey dylan, THANKS MAN! on July 15, 2014 at 11:29 PM · Report this
149
146, meet 148. You share the same position, but one of you comes across as clueless while the other comes across as some kind of 50's era Neanderthal.
Posted by Maybe the looking glass will help you see. on July 15, 2014 at 11:45 PM · Report this
150
Oh my god. Y'all need to go outside. Run around. Pet a dog, kiss a kitten, SMILE!
G is completely rational and correct by the way and Maybe the Looking Glass etc etc seems like the troll here so it does no good to engage. That Big Lebowski clip was great btw. I need to see that movie again. A classic.
Posted by Claire Johnson on July 16, 2014 at 12:34 AM · Report this
151
Ah yes, argumentum ad hominem. Completely expected after the argumentum ad nauseam and breakdown into absurdity. I'm a little surprised that g themself isn't the culprit though. They certainly showed an ability to devolve into such petty tactics, and I never would have guessed that other people would want to so willingly jump onto the informal fallacy train.
Posted by Keep proving my point for me. on July 16, 2014 at 12:46 AM · Report this
152
Let me help you out here, loony leftys. You're assuming that your personal sensitivity is somebody else problem. But here's the thing.
You DO NOT have a god given right to choose a strange lifestyle or ask others to help you deny objective reality AND to be treated like a normal, sane person. Want to play 'let's pretend I'm really a woman!' Dylan? Whatever. Your problem. Want to throw a temper tantrum when sane people refuse to play? Yeah, that's a problem, young man.

I'm going to be charitable and assume this boy is disturbed. What he needs is not societal enabling of his disorder. What he needs is competent mental help bringing his disturbed mind into some kind of functionality
Posted by Seattleblues on July 16, 2014 at 7:55 AM · Report this
153
I have a hard time seeing this employee's continued problem with the company. I mean the owner found out and has reached out personally, apologized for not having a clearer policy, and is investigatin the managers for not being more supportive. This really sounds like a bad manager and not a bad company. It feels a little bit like it is being milked at this point with the legal action and all that.

And there are some significant problems with the way she went about handling the situation. Since she wasn't a manager, I am guessing it is way out of line for a crew member to be threatening to refuse service to a customer, or even confronting a customer for that matter--regardless of how valid the reason might be. The first interaction makes sense, but walking up to the customer the second time and confronting him instead of informing the manager is just bad judgment, and not acceptable employee behavior.

And I also thought what g did. "Man" in the way she is saying it was used is usually not gender specific, it is like "dude." And Ma'am is certainly not what you would replace it with. Makes me wonder if Dylan is a transplant. That being said, the fact that he laughed instead of saying he was sorry and/or that he didn't mean it that way sort of makes it irrelevent. Plus, sometimes people are being obviously antagonistic and thier intentions are clear, even if their words seem open to interpretation on paper. That may very well be the case here. But, that is sort of the reason that you are supposed to go to your manager if you have an issue with a customer instead of confronting them yourself.
Posted by brent.b on July 16, 2014 at 10:04 AM · Report this
154
What if the "accused" is a woman ? Can she sue Dylan for threatening her ? Dylan's confrontation sure sounds threatening to the customer in my eyes.
Posted by neo on July 16, 2014 at 10:17 AM · Report this
155
I honestly can't believe you people are doing this. I mean, I know this is one of the most liberal and thus inane sites on the internet, and I guarantee this comment will be up for about five minutes before I'm either inundated with speech about how all cis white men should die (I'm not white, but I know that won't matter to you) or my comment will be pulled for "obvious trolling", even though everything I'm about to say is 100% true and backed by fact.

Fact number one. This person is a MAN. Period. He's not a "man in a woman's body" a "woman in a man's body" or someone who's looking to "find themselves". Dylan Paul is a male by every metric we have to measure maleness or femaleness. The subject of his mind is another matter. Which brings me to:

Fact number two. Because Dylan says that he is really a woman trapped in a man's body, that does not make him a unique special snowflake deserving of internet accolades, that makes him mentally ill. If I were to say that I, as a demi-otherkin tiger must eat people to survive and I'll only be happy when I become a cannibal, you wouldn't think of me as special, you'd think I was insane and would get me treated. Likewise, if someone said they were hearing voices in their head that were telling them to kill their family, they'd say that that person was mentally ill and needed help. But somehow, if you're "born as the wrong gender" or now, even "as the wrong species", we don't say "Hey, you may be harmless, but your brain is still messed up and you need to get some treatment for that," we say, "Hey! You're absolutely perfect just the way you are and anybody that says otherwise is just a white cishet BIGOT."

It's interesting on two points, actually, that the majority of the modern wave of Tumblr transgenders are often elder teenagers or young twenty-somethings with autism, and often a poor life at home. I'm sure that I will get "Correlation doesn't equal causation, you shitlord!" shouted at me, which is true, but saying those four words does not give you carte blanche to ignore any contradictory evidence to your worldview.

Fact three: Even *with* corrective surgery, transsexuals and transgenders are still committing suicide at a rate that is well over the general population. The fact is, the best-case analysis of this indicates that corrective surgery is not fixing the root of the problem--which is of course their mind. A more realistic analysis of this, however, would take decades. And as this has only really begun to enter the public sphere, it will take time before a 20+-year research project can be considered even remotely "complete".

Fact four: Transsexuals, transgenders, and the rest of the LGBTQQIA (or whatever they're calling it now) make up 2% of the population. That's right. TWO PERCENT. Yet everything is being geared around them now. If you don't have a gay romance in your videogame, you're a bigot. If you don't have transgender bathrooms in your university, you're bigoted. If you refuse to serve a wedding cake to a couple getting married in New York (not what happened, and it's not like there are hundreds of other cakeries in NYC that would DIE to serve you and be progressive), you're run out of business. I thought democracy was about the will of the majority?

Please note in your attacks that not once have I said that transsexual and transgender people are an abomination, that any violence should be levied against them, or that they're any kind of "freak of nature". That would be cruel of me. I'm trying to inject some objective, scientific facts into this debate--something that has been sorely lacking.
More...
Posted by Anonymizer on July 16, 2014 at 10:40 AM · Report this
156
As someone who worked for Pags for many years, I knew Matt Galvin personally, and know he is taking this very seriously. He always had am open door policy and cares immensely for his employees. This resounds throughout the company. Though I didn't agree with them on some things, I always thought they did the right thing by their employees on the store level.

Just because the issue concerns a trans employee does not mean the company can be said to have issue with trans people. Dylan deserves to be treated with respect and care, just as the company's values tout, and this customer had a definite poor choice of words, and I see how it was offensive, but also he sounded nervous maybe, and it was the worse time if he meant to use "man" casually like that.

The manager maybe made a hasty call that the reputation of the company overrides the respect of a single employee. This sounds like a big misunderstanding on how to deal with a bad customer. Give folks a chance to make right and they probably will.
Posted by ShhhhImListeningToReason on July 16, 2014 at 10:44 AM · Report this
157
@152: This is not an issue of her being trans. This is most likely an issue of her being young and probably new to being able to be who she is. It's actually people like you who are the cause of her angst and why she is so sensitive (at least, that's what it seems with the information I have). Most trans people will grow out of this angst and learn to tune people like you out, or learn to better assess who's actually being offensive versus the people who are unintentionally offensive. For example, YOU are actually being offensive. The guy that Dylan was berating, possibly not so.

I know trans business owners, and my friend works with trans people at Starbucks corporate. I even have a trans fraternity brother, and he, along with the previous people I mentioned, are very competent individuals. I'm sorry if that doesn't jive with your prejudiced views against trans people, but it's the truth.

That being said, and moving on to the actual story at hand: I do agree with others that this story reads like one big misunderstanding between the customer and Dylan. These stories really don't help out the trans community at all. There are a lot more severe and blatant cases of transphobia (e.g #152) that are more desevering of the limelight.
Posted by Mr Lova Lova on July 16, 2014 at 11:28 AM · Report this
sissoucat 158
How the hell could the customer find out that she was transgender ? This is the picture of a young female, there's nothing even remotely male about her !

I don't think the customer intended to do transgender-hatred, but just normal, usual woman-hatred, directed at anything female, either cis or trans. I suppose he got his kicks on seeing how offended she became ?
Posted by sissoucat on July 16, 2014 at 11:42 AM · Report this
159
Seattleblues, try picking up a modern DSM. Dylan has no disorder, and his mind is not disturbed. This is not Dylan's problem. It is our problem for permitting this as a society. Dylan didn't do this. "We" did. We killed Kenny. We're bastards. Continuing to deny these facts only speaks to your dysfunction, not anybody else's.

Brent_b, "Dude" is a gender laced term. From 1867 to present, it has only referred to men. It was originally synonymous with dandy. The feminine is dudette. You see this in popular culture all the time. Ever heard of the song "Dude (Looks Like a Lady)" or the movie "Dude, Where's my Car?". Look through the last 20 years of dude use in popular culture. It is pretty much exclusively male.

#54, where to begin. The brain is part of the body. If Dylan's brain is not fully male, then Dylan isn't fully male. This is why brain scans are used as an indicator of gender dysphoria. You won't catch me calling for the death of white cisgendered men, because for the most part, I am one.

You are technically correct with fact number two, but you are using it to obfuscate. The customer acted reprehensibly. If he started calling a white cismale "Chick" I'd be just as upset. The gender of the accused and the gender of the victim are irrelevant. Harassment through gender discrimination is wrong, full stop. Also, your diatribe, accusing many transgendered people of being autistic, is both uncalled for and statistically untrue. Neither people on the Autism Spectrum nor twenty-somethings have any higher rate of gender dysphoria. This is about as accurate as most of your "facts".

Fact three, while again technically true, is followed up by simply horrible diatribes and attacks. There is nothing in a gender dysphoric person's mind that needs to be fixed. They aren't broken.

Fact four is playing fast and loose with numbers. First of all, you're off by about half. Intersex people alone make up one percent of the world's population. Even at two percent, you may be happy to write off and dismiss 140 million people, roughly a third of the US population. That however, is a mental disorder covered by the DSM. That's a sociopathic neuroses. Even then, the thought that everything is being geared towards the LGBTQI (the Q covers the A) community is so out of touch it is laughable. Very rarely do video games include non-heterosexual couplings (The Dragon Age and Mass Effect series are two notable exceptions, and they both have received terabytes of complaints for it).

Democracy is about the will of the majority. The majority has spoken. They say you're wrong, out of touch, and possibly in need of therapy.

Calling gender dysphoric people autistic minorities with broken brains that are catered to at every turn is cruel. It is calling them a freak of nature. You just pulled an "I'm not a racist, but..." and apparently can't even see it.
More...
Posted by Wow. In Seattle too. I'm speechless. on July 16, 2014 at 11:48 AM · Report this
160
After more than 100 comments, no one knows what really happened, due to the Stranger's unfortunate so-called reporting: It's a one-sided story (the customer was never interviewed) and the report differs with what even Dylan reports on her blog. It's laughable journalism, leaving readers to take sides without really knowing what happened. Why was this allowed to run?
Posted by JPierce on July 16, 2014 at 11:58 AM · Report this
161
One look at its picture was enough for me. Thanks for the laugh, maaaaaaaan.
Posted by Nice weed whacker haircut on July 16, 2014 at 2:20 PM · Report this
162
Dudette? No one says that.
Posted by clashfan on July 16, 2014 at 6:47 PM · Report this
163
Wait, is this from the same Stranger writer who posted the story about the evil evil cop who shot the innocent helpless bank-robbing gun-wielding restaurant worker?
Posted by g on July 16, 2014 at 7:38 PM · Report this
164
Ansel Herz sniffs out some damn fine stories. And then he pisses on them, leaves them, and moves onto the next. Sure seems to net the comments though...
Posted by tabski on July 16, 2014 at 11:17 PM · Report this
wilbur@work 165
you mean there's a crazy person on Cap Hill who wants a slice of 'za, and there's another crazy person who works at the 'za shop who doesn't want to serve him, cause he's a different kind of crazy?

Shocking, man!
Posted by wilbur@work on July 16, 2014 at 11:53 PM · Report this
166
This is an entirely disturbing story, to me. I work for Matt Galvin, and he is a great guy, and I am slightly horrified that he has to be dragged into this. He actually really cares about this sort of thing. I also have six friends who are trans (though ftm, maybe it's different, somehow...), and I cannot imagine any of them doing this. And I am mildly autistic. And work in retail and have had the occasional complaint about me for my supposed slights, which I never meant, which I tried to rectify, due to my slight social difficulties. Just, no. Entirely stupid reaction, over-reaction, to relatively nothing. It was not entirely nothing to Dylan, obviously, but such is life. It sucks. You don't get what you want, you don't get treated in the ideal way, but you muddle through and deal with shit like a big girl. You don't know what your customer was going through that day or in his life, just as he didn't know what you were going through that day or in your life. Maybe he was having a fucking bad day. Maybe you fucking ruined his day by getting mad at him the second time around, maybe he (probably not, but who knows) was autistic like me and didn't fucking recognize your fucking face, or couldn't even fucking discern anything about you from your fucking face. I cannot. I cannot tell most faces apart, also, discern gender from faces, even with my intimately knowing gender is very personal and variable.
I have no point here. I am drunk. This whole thing just angered me, on at least two personal levels.
Posted by weelittlegirl on July 17, 2014 at 6:43 PM · Report this
167
If you're in the service industry, you serve. I'm a server with the same age as Dylan, and I don't bring my problems and issues to the workplace. No one in any job should. Customer is having a bad day? Smile then go talk shit about them afterwards. He needs to chill out and realize not everyone cares about your personal problems. Grow the fuck up
Posted by Sushi Server on July 18, 2014 at 1:33 PM · Report this
168
"Misgendering is harassment" ? Give me a freaking break. The LEGAL definition of harassment is the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The customer did not make threat nor demanded Dylan do any unwanted actions; it's the other way around. The management went out of their way to let Dylan not have to deal with this customer. It's people like Dylan make people not taking equal rights for all seriously.
Posted by akasha on July 18, 2014 at 2:06 PM · Report this
169
#168, this is a case of systematic and continued unwanted actions of one party. While there were no threats or demands, that whole "including" word means that is not a comprehensive list. A customer intentionally misgendered Dylan in an effort to harass.
Posted by Why give Akashics a bad name? on July 18, 2014 at 6:03 PM · Report this
170
#37 - Stop being a junior lawyer. They may have said go to the back to avoid the jerk. It is not trans-discrimination. She may have been fired for perceived bad attitude. Folks like you are why reasonable employers may avoid hiring people who may pose challenges when things are not going swimmingly. It is hard to prove discrimination in hiring, as one always has a legal reason to choose someone else. If you hire a white American born, protestant straight guy who is 30, and fire him down the road, he can't claim race, age, national origin, gender, sexual preference, religious or other discrimination. If you hire a minority or other protected class person, which the majority of people fall into, and fire them down the road, you may have to defend against some sort of claim. Any employer who has had enough hires and fires, has gone through the mill of having to defend and perhaps settle a discrimination claim when no discrimination took place. It is not necessarily enough to preclude hiring, but it is in the back of many employers minds as the human beings they are, who learn from sad experience.

Dylan Paul sounds like a self-righteous bitch. The owners response was nothing short of extraordinary. Closing down a business during the busy hour, to do training on gender awareness. Complain to the city Dylan, waste all of our tax money on an investigation, and likely no action in light of the proactive response. Or lawyer up and really cost us money in defending it. If it is the principle, you've more than won. If you are greedy, sue and complain away.

I would never hire someone like you if you showed up at my business and I was aware of your woe is me, drama queen history. It is perfectly legal to discriminate against assholes.
Posted by Park Place on July 18, 2014 at 6:58 PM · Report this
171
#170, then you must be discriminated against wherever you go, since you like to call people junior lawyers, self-righteous bitches, and drama queens rather than show an ounce of compassion. If I knew what your business was, I'd be sure to never darken its doors on principle alone.
Posted by Mankind should be your business, remember? on July 18, 2014 at 9:11 PM · Report this
172
171 - Your compassion is selective. Compassion for the boorish customer perhaps? How about for the boss who thought he is running a pizza restaurant but has to take on dealing with this circus. Consider how potentially disruptive to the lives of others Ms. Paul appears to be. She gets a pass but everyone else is held to a higher standard?
Posted by Park Place on July 19, 2014 at 12:14 AM · Report this
173
@172 It's its hormones. They're raging.
Posted by Maaaaaan on July 19, 2014 at 9:17 AM · Report this
174
The customer may have intentionally insulted Dylan in a passive-aggressive manner by disguising his disrespect as a colloquialism. His use of "man" in the second visit, when he had no doubt it was her specific point of contention, almost proves it. And that kind of biting sarcasm and malicious intent can sting worse than a more conventional insult because it's so much more nuanced and contrived.
But it still doesn't excuse Dylan for taking matters into her own hands and demanding an apology. Customer service involves taking a bit of abuse and disrespect. If it crosses the employee's comfort level, it's their responsibility to take it up the chain, or at least know in advance how much leeway management affords them. Protected classes are not indemnified from this basic and long-standing fact of life in customer service. If Dylan thinks things are too tough at Pagliacci, wait till she has to deal with the spoiled entitlement of caffeine junkies.
Posted by Jim Detwiler on July 19, 2014 at 3:01 PM · Report this
175
Relax man.
Posted by Pub Defender on July 20, 2014 at 2:14 AM · Report this
176
I don't think it "almost proves it." If he wasn't aware the colloquialism was the point of contention (and three days later, why would he be?), then it slipping into his speech again proves nothing. I asked a few of my older-than-24 friends, male and female, and none of them thought "man" (or "dude") had anything to do with gender when used this way.

But, of course, we're all just speculating. Armchair referees. All we have is one person's side, and an incomplete version of that as it is.
Posted by g on July 20, 2014 at 8:49 AM · Report this
177
Guess a proper response to Paul would have been "Fuck Off BITCH"!!! My ex was very masculine looking, pants, short hair, athletic build, no make up etc. She often got the "Yes Sir" response even though she was a very attractive woman. Vicki would flash a breast to correct the errors.
Posted by pupuguru http://www.godsweed.org on July 20, 2014 at 8:51 AM · Report this
178
And once again, I read @175's comment a couple of times and didn't relate it to this thread...just thought they were telling people to chill. That's how ingrained in my head "man" is, and how unrelated to anything except the usage I'm describing it is to anyone over the age of 30 or thereabouts, I would guess.
Posted by g on July 20, 2014 at 8:52 AM · Report this
179
Okay, 40.
Posted by g on July 20, 2014 at 9:09 AM · Report this
180
@172, had the customer shown so much as apologized once with sincerity, they'd have my compassion too. Is that a low enough barrier of entry for you?
The head of Pag's has my compassion already.
Calling Dylan "potentially disruptive"? Priceless. You've shown everyone exactly how compassionate you are right there with your labelling to negate.
Posted by Whatever, Ebenezer Scrooge on July 21, 2014 at 9:59 AM · Report this
181
@181, aka myself, this is what you get for trying to post before breakfast but after a migraine. Let this be a lesson to us all.
Posted by Think, then type. on July 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM · Report this

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