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Friday, June 20, 2014

Falling Out of Love With New Pope

Posted by on Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 7:24 AM

Last week New Pope invited the head of Manif Pour Tous, France's violent anti-gay group (endorsed by neo-Nazis and NOM), to a private mass at Vatican City. This week New Pope came out against legalizing pot and other recreational drugs:

Francis told delegates to a drug-enforcement conference in Rome that even limited attempts to legalize recreational drugs "are not only highly questionable from a legislative standpoint, but they fail to produce the desired effects.... Let me state this in the clearest terms possible: the problem of drug use is not solved with drugs!"

If the drug you're using failed to produce the desired effects... maybe you're using the wrong drug? Or not enough? Or too much? And most of the "problem[s] of drug use"—black markets, gang violence, mass (and racist) incarceration, adulterated drugs—stem from drug prohibition, not drug use. Solve the problem of prohibition and you'll solve most of the problems of drug use.


Comments (77) RSS

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Cept the problem of kiddos od'ing on pot brownies in Colorado. Doesn't solve that problem.
Posted by Confluence on June 20, 2014 at 7:29 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 2
I'm not much of a fan of full legalization of drugs, but throwing people behind bars for half their life for getting high makes even less sense. Too bad we can't come up with some sort of a middle ground. "Decriminalization," but not "legalization." I know 99% of you guys won't agree with me, but drug use isn't a good thing. don't encourage it, but don't ruin peoples' lives over it either.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty on June 20, 2014 at 7:32 AM · Report this
Like you, Dan, I was raised Catholic and about 20 years ago realized it was doing nothing for me. Too much institutionalized bullshit. But for the first time in, well, ever, I at least see possible hope for less bullshit with this new pope. He seems to be much more along the Jesuit-y lines of "don't be an asshole and help people who need help" rather than drawing lines around groups and people and deeming them bad or wrong. This is by way of saying that my first thought is that I wonder if he's invited the groups there as a way to open a dialogue - them on one side saying 'fags should die' and him on the other saying 'don't be an asshole' but dressed up in nicer language. I have no idea, maybe he's an institutional pope asshole in sheep's clothing, but so far I've been pleasantly surprised by some of the things he's said and done.
Posted by skyweaver on June 20, 2014 at 7:34 AM · Report this
Fortunate 4
None of this is a surprise to those of us who aren't easily taken in by good PR talk. I have been criticized by people for not accepting this guy as some great reformer, and told that even a change in tone, even if it hasn't yet resulted in a change in any policy, is a good thing.

No, it's not. Not when the change in tone is just Bullshit PR talk meant just to bring lax Catholics back to the church.

He is now showing his true colors. He's still just as much of a gay hating, anti freedom tyrant as every other Pope before him. He just talks nicer and knows how to leverage his Dotting Old Grandfather vibe. Underneath there is little difference between him and Pope Palpatine.

I was wondering how long he could keep up the BS. Apparently 1 year, 3 months.
Posted by Fortunate on June 20, 2014 at 7:39 AM · Report this
Fistique 5
While the legalisation of drugs is obviously the only humane option, and all our institutions are further damned in the eyes of history every day they delay this outcome, the global recession/feudal reconfiguration is likely to contribute to cultures of mass addiction. I see these already in pockets of the UK and mainland Europe, particularly in the case of the legal drug alcohol, and I suspect it is likewise in the hollowed-out neighbourhoods of the US.

We must think beyond legalisation, to build societies which ensure all humans have lives that are bearable enough that they don't require constant anesthetisation to survive.
Posted by Fistique on June 20, 2014 at 7:56 AM · Report this
Pope Peabrain 6
He's against a lot of things. But he doesn't run a real country. It would make more sense for him to tell his followers not to do drugs than dictating laws. But what do you expect from an inherently disordered religion that has a history of crimes against humanity?
Posted by Pope Peabrain on June 20, 2014 at 7:58 AM · Report this
So apart from libelous assertions how is this Manif group violent?

Here's a tip, Little Danny. Using advocacy blogs as news sources makes you look what you are- unintelligent, ignorant and essentially lacking in integrity.
Posted by Seattleblues on June 20, 2014 at 7:59 AM · Report this

Having spent a lot of time and research trying to help my late nephew kick heroin, and with respect, you're wrong.

Depression or a general lack of perceived self worth that lead to addiction- these aren't curable with objective reality.

My nephew had friends, a girl who loved him, a good work ethic and the respect that brings. He was smart and intuitive with an innate sense of the underlying structure of things. He'd have been a good engineer or architect.
He was considerate, empathetic and unendingly loyal to those in his life.

But these things didn't change whatever caused him to see himself as insufficient, not liked or smart ir worthwhile. His addiction fed that perception in a vicious circle that ended in an OD and death.

It isn't circumstance but perception of it that leads to the escapism of drug use.
Posted by Seattleblues on June 20, 2014 at 8:11 AM · Report this
Phoebe in Wallingford 9
@6 - Yes. It isn't worth the time, emotions, spirituality, to fall in "love" with this Pope or any other Pope. We can revere only a few of his teachings, and some we can only despise. To try to extract more from His Holiness, is just nuttiness.
Posted by Phoebe in Wallingford on June 20, 2014 at 8:16 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 10
Anyone who thought a septuagenarian pope would have the time to effect real reform wasn't thinking clearly anyway. JPII was able to do what he did because he was 58 when he assumed the papacy. I highly doubt Francis will be pope for 25 years.
Posted by Matt from Denver on June 20, 2014 at 8:24 AM · Report this
Banna 11
Just like any relationship, where you can't love anyone who doesn't 100% agree with everything you believe. Just ask my wife.
Posted by Banna on June 20, 2014 at 8:25 AM · Report this
I'm with @4. I'm surprised so many people were taken in by the PR with Francis. A lot of it was mistranslated or clearly out of context to the extent that day-after rescissions were common. Glad to see the mass delusion fade.
Posted by wxPDX on June 20, 2014 at 8:34 AM · Report this
What has this Pope done which has so enamored those on the Left that they have openly declared their "love" for him? I don't get it. He probably will not deviate from church doctrine in any meaningful way (or he'll be reigned in by more conservative Catholics) and won't make any real waves.

He's a nice-ish, older man. That's it. Never felt the love.
Posted by Patricia Kayden on June 20, 2014 at 8:36 AM · Report this
@4, 12

Whatever. If a person didn't believe the core doctrine of Catholicism how likely do you think they are to be elected Pope?

What you and the thing that calls itself Danny Savage want is a cross between Sawant and Hitchens for Pope. Hate to disappoint, but that ain't gonna happen.
Posted by Seattleblues on June 20, 2014 at 8:41 AM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 15
@14: No, decent people just want a pope who makes a stand against human misery, rather than keep the child rape machine humming along, and making sure as many Africans and women die painfully by withholding medical treatment and AIDS prevention materials.

But it does not surprise me that you have no problem with all this.
Posted by Theodore Gorath on June 20, 2014 at 8:47 AM · Report this
He's the pope.

You were expecting some sort of moral force for the greater good?
Posted by GermanSausage on June 20, 2014 at 8:51 AM · Report this
blip 17
Catholics tend to be pretty liberal so the Vatican has a vested interest in shifting leftward, or at least appearing as such. All the positive press for New Pope comes across like an attempt to make up for the embarrassment of Nazi Pope.
Posted by blip on June 20, 2014 at 8:52 AM · Report this

I see. Chalk you up as "virulently bigoted against Christianity" than? Noted.


I mentioned AIDS or child rape not at all. And you're an idiot.
Posted by Seattleblues on June 20, 2014 at 8:54 AM · Report this
Let me state this in the clearest terms possible: the problem of drug use is not solved with drugs!

Seems he is speaking of recreational drug use. In which case:

a) The point is to get high. At which point you are not capable of doing various things, like caring for small children or driving a car. (One thing I will say for nicotine and alcohol is that they can be consumed in such a way that you are not impaired, e.g. the one-drink-with-dinner folk.*) I can see why the pope looks down on that. Particularly given a strong background in charity work, in which one would encounter parents who would rather get high than care for their preschoolers, and the heartbreaking effects on the children. One can argue that the problem is despair, poor economic options, etc, sure, but I'm not going to argue with the dude that these problems can, so, be solved with some good pcp.

b) A reasonable number of people are consuming drugs (alcohol or pot or opiates or whatever) as a way to attempt to deal with the pain in their life. Again, it makes sense to me that the pope would think people should turn to God and not opiates: he is the pope, he's supposed to come up with that as a solution.

I don't get why "meets with violent anti-gay Nazi-endorsed group" and "believes people should not turn to drugs" are in the same paragraph?

*If every person who drank did it in this way, as a small serving to complement food, I would buy the distinction between legalizing alcohol and not pot.
Posted by IPJ on June 20, 2014 at 8:58 AM · Report this
JonnoN 20
"Catholics tend to be pretty liberal"

not sure I've heard anyone claim that before...
Posted by JonnoN on June 20, 2014 at 8:59 AM · Report this
Fortunate 21
@14, no, what I want is for the Pope to tell his own congregation what to do and leave the rest of us alone. Of course he believes in Catholic Doctrine. Which is why I didn't by any of the rhetoric that was being attributed to him from the start.

I am not surprised at all because, of course he holds to Catholic doctrine. I didn't expect anything else.

What I want? I want him to leave the rest of us alone. I'm not a Catholic and not a Christian and I shouldn't have to live under the superstition of these institutions. The Pope is allowed to tell his flock how they can and can not live, and if they want to remain in his flock they have to listen.

But when he tells me how I have to live by trying to have his superstitious believes enshrined in law that's where I draw the line. If he stayed out of politics and world affairs and just tended his flock I wouldn't care one whit what he said or did.
Posted by Fortunate on June 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM · Report this
fletc3her 22
I hope we can applaud the forward steps the Catholic church takes while still acknowledging there is a lot about their leadership that is plain backward.
Posted by fletc3her on June 20, 2014 at 9:06 AM · Report this
Fortunate 23
@20, American Catholics lean towards the liberal side. Other parts of the world your results may vary. But in the USA Catholics are either in line with the majority of Americans, or slightly more liberal than average.

They are almost identical in acceptance of abortion. They noticeably more accepting of same sex relations and marriage than the average American (a majority favor same sex marriage being legal). They are less in favor of the death penalty than the average American. They are more accepting of having children out of wedlock than most Americans. Just slightly more OK with Stem Cell Research. Noticeably more OK with sex outside of marriage in general. Over 70% are OK with divorce, noticeably higher than the average. And even MORE OK with gambling.

Their leadership may be regressive and old school, but in the US at least (and I am willing to bet good chunks of Western Europe) Catholics are far more liberal than their religious leaders would care to admit (to themselves or others).
Posted by Fortunate on June 20, 2014 at 9:11 AM · Report this
nocutename 24
He's a pope. He's better than a lot of popes before him, and I like that he eschews a ton of pomp and falderal, but he's still a pope.
The Catholic Church has never been a progressive, forward-thinking institution. Despite his name, Francis is a a Jesuit, not a Franciscan.

American Catholics tend to be a fairly liberal bunch politically; liberation theologists also have a liberal cast about some--not all--issues. Nuns in the Leadership Conference of Women Religious rock. Jesuits are learned men; Franciscans work with the urban poor, and thus are likely to have a better understanding of the differences between say, marijuana and heroin.

But American-style Catholicism, as well as the religion as practiced by the laity, have little in common with the institution of the Catholic Church, of which the pope is the highest authority.

Don't expect too much of any pope.
Posted by nocutename on June 20, 2014 at 9:13 AM · Report this
Fortunate 25
@22, Sure, what steps forward has the Catholic Church taken recently exactly (I mean, sure we can go way back and appluade them for no longer burning people alive, but what about in the past 20 years say)? Other than some reforms of the Vatican Bank (because they were assisting in the laundering of money apparently and the Pope didn't like that), and slapping the hand of a Bishop who spent too much money renovating his mansion, what has the Pope actually done? Not what has he given a nice talk on, but what changes has he actually made?
Posted by Fortunate on June 20, 2014 at 9:14 AM · Report this
Pobody's Nerfect in Popeland.

Also, Catholics are completely crazy anyway.
Posted by Amanda on June 20, 2014 at 9:36 AM · Report this
I heard myself say, ‘oh sure that Christian guy believes it’s wrong that I’m gay, but at least he doesn't actively try to limit my rights!’

Then I realized that I treat religious people like they have a moral/ethical disability. In other words, based on how religious the Pope is you’d expect him to be way more hateful. So we should be grateful…?
Posted by Jeffmks on June 20, 2014 at 9:36 AM · Report this
JonnoN 28
@23 that's terrific. So why do they give their time and money to an organization that actively opposes their ideals?
Posted by JonnoN on June 20, 2014 at 9:38 AM · Report this
Anyone who fell in love with Pope Francis in the first place was a deluded idiot. All talk, no walk.
Posted by Escapee from S. Idaho on June 20, 2014 at 9:58 AM · Report this
monkey 30
He's still the leader of the largest cult/crime syndicate on the planet.
Posted by monkey on June 20, 2014 at 9:59 AM · Report this
The Pope's "tsk tsk'ing" on recreational drug use would be a lot more plausible if he were to, say, come out against the recreational use of alcohol.

It the cherry picking of recreational drugs, saying that this one is okay and that one isn't, that rubs me the wrong way.

And I am in no way in favor of the prohibition of alcohol. I just think it has historically destroyed more lives than marijuana use, so if destructive behavior is the enemy, Francis should be going after all drugs, not just the ones of which he personally disapproves.

Posted by Clayton on June 20, 2014 at 10:09 AM · Report this
The principles, the core, of Christianity hasn't changed since the death and resurrection of Christ.

Yes, details will change. But if you've got it right change isn't just pointless, it's counterproductive.

No true Christian will ever condone homosexual behavior. No true Christian will ever support the attack on family and morality that is gay so called marriage. Not ever. Open and unrepentant sin, homosexual lifestyle choice or other, will never ever be condoned by anyone truly Christian.

If that change is what you require to love this Pope, the false love of enabling your self destructive lifestyle choice, I wouldn't hold your breath.
Posted by Seattleblues on June 20, 2014 at 10:13 AM · Report this
Fistique 33
@8, I don't think we actually disagree, it's just that you're talking about your personal experience with your relative, and I'm talking about the aggregate effect of society-wide changes. It's weird to claim that "objective reality" doesn't have /some/ statistical effect on drug use, even if in the specific case you mention, a superficially pleasant reality was insufficient to counter suicidal depression.
Posted by Fistique on June 20, 2014 at 10:24 AM · Report this
Fortunate 34
@32, you completely miss my point.

I don't care what this Pope thinks. I don't need his approval of the approval of his superstitions. I don't expect him or the Church to change in what they believe or teach.

I don't expect to ever love the Pope, and don't care if he ever becomes someone I would love. I don't care what you personally think either. The cesspool of your mind is your problem.

What I want is for him to stay the hell out of the lives of non Christians / Catholics.

You Christians can fight it out over who is a true Christian. Why would you think I care one whit if you think other people who call themselves Christians are the "true" Christians or not? As far as I am concerned it's about as significant as arguing over who would win a fight, Superman or the Hulk.

You guys fight over who's is interpreting your imaginary friend more accurately, but keep it to yourselves.

My life doesn't need some old guy or his followers' approval. But when you start trying to legislate that insanity then the gloves come off. Do what you want and live how you like, but leave the rest of us alone.
Posted by Fortunate on June 20, 2014 at 10:25 AM · Report this
kickerofelves 35
Does Dan Savage believe everything he reads without caring about the veracity of the statement? Or did he just need to fill up space this week?

It's unfortunate that Dan or some of the clown collective here doesn't mention Francis' meeting and mass with a pro-gay activist priest named Michele de Paolis earlier this year. He even--gasp--kissed Father de Paolis' hand. No, that wouldn't fit into the narrative BS people here seem to want.

"Manif Pour Tous, France's violent anti-gay group (endorsed by neo-Nazis and NOM)"

Try reading French news. La Manif Pour Tour's POV is shit in my opinion but they haven't been behind any organized violence. What neo-Nazis have 'endorsed' la Manif Pour Tous? Where did MPT reach out for that endorsement? The US Communist Party endorsed Obama during one election and a Tea Party leader endorsed Obama's call for immigration reform.

A pity Dan can't read French. If they did they'd also see where MPT has reached out to gays, banned homophobic banners and speeches, enlisted support of gay organizations on issues, etc. Doesn't lessen the shit POV of their position but this ain't the USA we're talking about--you'd never see the Tea Party or other right-wing American loons reaching out to gays and banning homophobic outbursts from their meetings. The level of hate in France is usually far less than the good ol' USA.

FFS because he had a mass for someone who's other than acceptable to hipsters he's now Satan again. Francis has also had dozens of private masses with union leaders, socialists, prisoners, etc. And even one pro-gay activist priest.
Posted by kickerofelves on June 20, 2014 at 10:29 AM · Report this
Fortunate 36
@35, he held mass with one moderately pro gay priest, and excommunicated another, more strongly pro gay priest, so I call that a wash:…

As for anti gay rallies and violence in France:…

He can have a mass with whom ever he wants. But when he has a mass with people who fan the flames against people just trying to live their lives in peace and equality we have the right to judge him for it. He had already made it clear where he stands, this just confirms it and makes it clear to those who were being taken in by his gentler speech and fooled into thinking this was a kinder, gentler church.

This is just a reminder to the gullible that this is the same old church with the same old backwards beliefs and that expecting them to change is not realistic. If you value freedom then they are not on your side.
Posted by Fortunate on June 20, 2014 at 10:53 AM · Report this

You're the one who asked about change. I realize the mind of one who has chosen the homosexual lifestyle is by definition disordered, but I'd think you could remember what you yourself wrote.

And in democratic governments we Christians have as much right as depraved disgusting things like Savage to advocate for legislation in line with our values. If your sexual choices put you in the minority votes wise, that's the price you pay for them. Or, more accurately, the price an adult would understand.

Posted by Seattleblues on June 20, 2014 at 10:54 AM · Report this
"attempts to legalize recreational drugs are not only highly questionable from a legislative standpoint, but they fail to produce the desired effects"

I'm wondering how the Pope knows this. The Lord told him? What are the 'desired effects'? Less poor people in prison perhaps? Coming from someone who claims to care deeply for the poor, this is extreme hypocrisy.
Posted by Rhizome on June 20, 2014 at 10:54 AM · Report this

Well! Americablog (whose every title in your link is 'extremist' or the laughable 'anti-gay') AND Joemygod!

Gee. With those unimpeachably unbiased sources I'm terribly embarrassed to have ever questioned you....
Posted by Seattleblues on June 20, 2014 at 10:59 AM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 40
@22- Sure we can. Just tell me when they take some steps forward and I'll start applauding.

I'm not going to clap for them talking about maybe taking some steps forward.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings on June 20, 2014 at 11:10 AM · Report this
Fortunate 41
@37, your reading comprehension is lacking. I asked someone who was suggesting that we should applaud the change that the Pope has initiated to list what these changes were, knowing there weren't any.

But I shouldn't be surprised that someone with such delusional thinking wouldn't comprehend that.

I never said I expected change. I just asked those saying there has been change to give some examples. Still haven't seen any, so there you go.

In a government with a constitution you don't get to trample other's rights just because you are in the majority. Perhaps some Civics 101 refreshers will do you some good. You can vote and push for what you want of course, and the rest of us can oppose you and judge you for it. It goes both ways. When the Pope interferes we can judge him for it. When he stops we will leave him and the rest of you alone. That's how it works. Democracy goes both ways.

And remember, you won't always be in the majority. On this issue you are already the minority as the majority of Americans support same sex marriage now. But go ahead and whine some more. Despite your money machine and your vaunted superiority you are still loosing this one. And one day you will be in the minority in on all issues. And on that day when you are moaning and crying because you and your medieval way of thinking have been relegated to the dust bin I am sure someone will remind you, "Well, it's a Democracy. Suck it up sweetcakes".

And there are no unbiased sources. You and your ilk use your biases sources, and we use ours. Modern life sweetheart, deal with it. You have never uttered an unbiased comment in your life I will wager. Your depraved ilk are constitutionally unable to.
Posted by Fortunate on June 20, 2014 at 11:12 AM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 42
@32: No true Christian would ever believe and do the shit you claim to believe and do.

See, anyone can engage in bullshit fallacious reasoning!
Posted by Theodore Gorath on June 20, 2014 at 11:16 AM · Report this
kickerofelves 43
@Fortunate; Nice try. Nothing--not a word--in that link suggest la Manif Pour Tous--who Savage's article is about & who I specifically mentioned--was involved in or organized any violence.

Reynolds was not excommunicated for advocating gay relationships but over advocating the female priesthood during mass after being told to knock it off. Not for holding the belief, nor for publicly stating it but for doing it during his masses again and again. Shitty? Yeah I think so female priests are almost certainly good for Catholicism, but a different kind of shitty.
Posted by kickerofelves on June 20, 2014 at 11:31 AM · Report this
keshmeshi 44
The opiate of the masses doesn't want any competition.
Posted by keshmeshi on June 20, 2014 at 11:40 AM · Report this
Fortunate 45
They started the protests, the protests turned violent. Remember the old saying, "The Buck Stops Here"? They are responsible.

As for Reynolds, the excommunication document didn't cite the reason for the excommunication. While I have no doubt his stance on women's ordination played a part there is no justification for denying that his stance on gay marriage didn't play a part.

Pretty much every news report I can find on it cites three reasons. Celebrating mass when he wasn't supposed to, promoting the ordination of women, and supporting same sex marriage.
Posted by Fortunate on June 20, 2014 at 11:53 AM · Report this
The gay hating Christians have begun to opine that they are being persecuted and held up to public ridicule for screaming their hateful ignorance for all to hear. The comments of SB cause me to fervently wish that SB and its ilk be subjected to the same kind of treatment that they have been dishing out to LGBTs forever. Karma is a bitch, SB. Your zombie carpenter can't save you from Karma. Besides, didn't Jeebus say that you will reap what you have sown? And yeah, the Pope is a fraud. If you didn't understand that from day one, you were naive.
Posted by kwodell on June 20, 2014 at 12:44 PM · Report this
blip 47
@46, Anyone carrying around as much obsessive, irrational contempt as seattleblues is already suffering enough. Pity the poor thing.
Posted by blip on June 20, 2014 at 1:45 PM · Report this
JonnoN 48
@32 all christians are bigots. Got it.
Posted by JonnoN on June 20, 2014 at 1:51 PM · Report this
Ophian 49
No, no.The Pope is right. It's just a fact that alcohol in moderation is morally fine, but any use of marijuana whatsoever is morally destructive. I can prove it: I just had a shot of rum and a toke, and my soul was definitely only imperiled after the toke. It's just basic science, people.

Now where're my cigarettes?
Posted by Ophian on June 20, 2014 at 2:19 PM · Report this
Fortunate 50
What @47 said. A mind diseased by the infection of fundamentalism is it's own punishment.
Posted by Fortunate on June 20, 2014 at 2:32 PM · Report this

My comment so terrified the Stranger editors it was pulled. It wasn't full of foul language, unsubstantiated claims of violence on anyone else part, attacks on anyone- no it merely stated that neither this pope nor any other Christian leader can condone the unrepentant sin of homosexual behavior or support the attack on marriage called gay marriage. And it said that hate is not trying to help others realize their self destructive path and turn from it.

What a miserable way to live that a calmly and politely stated opinion on anothers part must be hidden and run away from. How sad for you folks. If that's what you call bigotry (hint- you might check a dictionary BEFORE using words you don't understand) then I'm a bigot, at least in your warped understanding.
Posted by Seattleblues on June 20, 2014 at 2:33 PM · Report this
Oh, and thank you Stranger editors. I always knew yours a childish and inherently ridiculous worldview. Your intolerance of anything but ideas you entirely share show precisely who the hateful bigots really are.
Posted by Seattleblues on June 20, 2014 at 2:37 PM · Report this
Seattleblues, Why do you think your side is losing not only court battles, but ballot measures, and public opinion. NOM's March for Marriage had fewer than 2000 people. What will you do when same sex marriage is law nationwide?
Posted by Are you panicking yet? on June 20, 2014 at 2:37 PM · Report this
blip 54
@51, If being verbally abusive is your idea of calm, polite discourse you're even sicker than I thought.
Posted by blip on June 20, 2014 at 2:54 PM · Report this
Lissa 55
@52: Your comment @51 will stay up while your other one was pulled. You express the same sentiment in both, but use abusive language in the one that was pulled.
Now think, think hard.
Was it your position, or the horrible hateful names you called gay people in general, and Dan in particular that got you in trouble?
Com on now, you can figure this out. Think!
Posted by Lissa on June 20, 2014 at 2:57 PM · Report this
@1 Thanks for showing up, Helen Lovejoy. Your input is always so informative.…
Posted by mtiffany71 on June 20, 2014 at 4:10 PM · Report this
@52 Why do you think that so many, historically, christian societies have moved in the direction of greater acceptance of homosexual behavior, SB?
Posted by Ken Mehlman on June 20, 2014 at 5:34 PM · Report this
Subhumanblues, it surprises me not at all that you have no knowledge of the decades long legal and political ecclesiastical debates that have been going on within the various Protestant denominations in the USA. In fact I doubt you have knowledge of let alone an understanding of the legal and political structure of whatever denomination your a member of.

So I'll keep this short. You are Loosing there too, you just don't know it.

Posted by Machiavelli was framed on June 20, 2014 at 6:52 PM · Report this
Posted by Machiavelli was framed on June 20, 2014 at 6:57 PM · Report this
Cynara 60
@Fortunate: You win the internet! If we could just get everyone to live by those rules and mind their own damn business, live as they please, and let the rest of us live as we please.

The only religious doctrine I'm willing to embrace is the Wiccan one: "An ye harm none, do what thou wilt."

Or maybe if Christians weren't so attached to cherry picking items from Leviticus, they might notice that Jesus said "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself".
Posted by Cynara on June 20, 2014 at 8:55 PM · Report this
@59 Amen!
Posted by pat L on June 20, 2014 at 10:08 PM · Report this
I want to get high with Dan Savage and the Pope and explain some things.
Posted by admiralobvious on June 21, 2014 at 4:57 AM · Report this
sissoucat 63
Let me tell you that this "Manif pour Tous" is not well-liked at all in France. Opinion is strongly against them.


One perverse effect of the "Manif pour Tous" is that, in order to prove that they're not retrograde homophobes, but just 'concerned by the children', the Catholics have had to admit publicly that homosexuality is not bad by itself. For the first time ever.

I remember progressive catholics being asked about homosexuals 20 years ago. Their faces went instantly "yerk". They said it was bad, horrible, and that they wouldn't want to say anything over horrible stuff. Nowadays, they've had to learn to keep a straight face when interrogated. They've had to learn to say "what happens in their bedroom is not what we're against". They've had to progress, before they could even attack gay marriage...

I find it amusing.
Posted by sissoucat on June 21, 2014 at 5:54 AM · Report this
Ms Sissou - Thank you for your report from the scene. Very well phrased about progressives actually having to progress.
Posted by vennominon on June 21, 2014 at 6:18 AM · Report this
Seattleblues seem to have run to his gay panic room, where he is balled up in the fetal position, crying.
Posted by Poor Seattleblues on June 21, 2014 at 8:21 AM · Report this
I feel a bit sorry for seattleblues. He seems to be suffering from
" Repetitive Thought and Word Disorder"
( think it's somewhere along the fuckwit spectrum), he just seems to think and say the same words over and over and over.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 21, 2014 at 7:15 PM · Report this
When people ask for a middle ground between decriminalization and legalization, the answer is regulation. We don't put people in jail for drinking, selling alcohol, or even manufacturing or importing it, as long as those things are done within the regulations that exist.
Posted by L0k1 on June 22, 2014 at 6:32 AM · Report this
@58, 59

There are "Christian" denominations which consider Christ allegorical rather than historical and divine.

But they are no more Christian than congregations which see the unrepentant sin of homosexual behavior and, so called, marriage to be encouraged.

They're free of course to call themselves Christian or heretical, just as they like. Though if they were honest the second is accurate and the first laughable.
Posted by Seattleblues on June 22, 2014 at 9:48 AM · Report this
venomlash 69
@32: "The principles, the core, of Christianity hasn't changed since the death and resurrection of Christ."
DEAR GOD ALMIGHTY, you are incredibly wrong. Do you want to know how wrong you are? Read and I shall tell you.
Saul of Tarshish, also known as Paul the Apostle. He was not acquainted with Jesus in life, but claimed a divine visitation from him a few years after the Crucifixion. At the time, Christians were Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah sent to liberate the world from all evil; for the most part they followed the laws, traditions, and practices of Judaism. After all, Jesus himself had proclaimed that he was not there to change the Law (Torah), but to fulfill the covenant made between God and humanity.
Paul the Apostle changed that; he is known as the Apostle to the Heathens for a reason. Paul preached Jesus's teachings to Gentiles but omitted Jesus's emphasis on the old Law. He overwrote Jesus's "follow and fulfill the old law" with "believe in Jesus and everything else you do is okay". How very unlike Judaism, which believes in forgiveness through personal repentance and good works, and how very like today's Christianity, which believes that Jesus's sacrifice is sufficient to forgive the sins of others without qualification beyond faith!
To my understanding, the spread of Paul's ideology was where Christianity stopped being Jewish and started to be Roman. Your claim that Christianity hasn't changed at its core since the Crucifixion is illustrative of your deep and distressing ignorance.
Posted by venomlash on June 22, 2014 at 9:58 AM · Report this
Lissa 70
@68: like the Presbyterians? 1.9 million members of 10,000 congregations in the US, not Christians? Episcopalians? Not Christians? The Church of England? You are such a buffoon.
Posted by Lissa on June 22, 2014 at 11:00 AM · Report this
@69 And that's just the beginning of the Apostolic Age, to be followed by the Ante-Nicene period, and those periods only cover the first 325 years prior to the First Council of Nicaea.

@70 Don't forget Evangelical Lutherans, the UCC, the Metropolitan Community Church, The Evangelical Network, Friends General Conference (Quakers), I could go on.
Posted by Machiavelli was framed on June 22, 2014 at 11:45 AM · Report this
Canadian Nurse 72
@68: I'd encourage you to read The Civil War and Theological Crisis. The Christians and the pro-slavery side all said that Christians who were pro-abolition were heretical, unbiblical, not true Christians. They had the bible on their side, the abolitionists had the arc of justice on theirs. We know who won that debate, in the end.

The tree of Abolition is evil," declared Reverend Henry Van Dyke, "and only evil—root and branch, flower and leaf, and fruit; that it springs from, and is nourished by an utter rejection of the Scriptures."
Posted by Canadian Nurse on June 22, 2014 at 5:32 PM · Report this
sissoucat 73

Add to that that the birth and youth of Jesus, with emphasis on Mary the Virgin, was inserted in the story a long time afterwards (like two centuries, I think ?)...
Posted by sissoucat on June 23, 2014 at 7:31 AM · Report this
There is no such thing as "ODing" on pot, but I suspect that most sloggers know that.
More magic brownie than you meant to get means a talk with entities who are (arguably) not present, or a short period of severe paranoia (which guides some damn fools to the emergency room), or just going to sleep with your shoes on because you forgot how to untie them.
I have experienced the first two (but in the latter case I went to my bed, with my shoes off, not to the fucking emergency room because I am not an idiot).
Posted by SifuMark on June 23, 2014 at 9:00 AM · Report this
Feeling vindicated! ://
Posted by LukeJoe on June 23, 2014 at 9:16 AM · Report this
People can be Christian if, and only if Seattleblues deems them worthy. He alone owns the trademark.
Posted by Seattleblues is the new inquisition on June 23, 2014 at 9:25 AM · Report this
ɥsɐןɯouǝʌ 77
@76: He also is the final arbiter of what is or isn't a mental illness, regardless of what the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association say. Additionally, he can tell just by looking out his window that the universe couldn't have come to be except by continual divine direction. He even knows better than the Supreme Court as to what is or isn't constitutional! Finally, he knows for certain that scientists are lying about things like climate change, evolution, and the existence of sexual orientation.
I know all this because he said so and we can clearly take his word for everything he says without needing any evidence to back him up or anything.
Posted by ɥsɐןɯouǝʌ on June 23, 2014 at 11:04 AM · Report this

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