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Monday, June 9, 2014

The Walmart Man Who Would Be Alive Today If He Didn't Have a Concealed Weapon

Posted by on Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:13 PM

According to CNN, a married couple (Jerad Miller and Amanda Miller) under the impression that they were starting a revolution shot and killed cops in a pizza place, and then...

...ran to Walmart where Jerad Miller fired off one round and told people to get out...
A shopper, identified as Joseph Wilcox, told his friend he was going to confront the suspects. "He was carrying a concealed weapon, and he immediately and heroically moved towards the position of Jerad Miller. Upon completing that action, he did not realize that Amanda Miller was with Jerad Miller," [Second Assistant Sheriff Kevin McMahill] told reporters.
He continued: "As soon as he began to confront Jerad Miller with his firearm, Amanda Miller removed her firearm and shot him one time in the ribs area where he immediately collapsed."
Wilcox, 31, "died attempting to protect others," Gillespie [a Walmart witness] said.
Amanda ended the revolution by killing her husband and herself.

As for the armed man she shot, he never made it near the status of hero. All he did was make a very bad situation worse by picturing himself in the NRA fiction of good guys with guns dealing with bad guys with guns. That fiction cost him his life. The reality is that a situation like this is always clouded by confusion. And throwing more guns into it only adds more danger to this confusion.

This Is What Most Walmarts Look Like
  • CM
  • This Is What Most Walmarts Look Like

 

Comments (97) RSS

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Boring Dad is Boring 1
So if guns confuse you and make you piss your own pants, don't have one. Problem solved. Just cross your fingers and think happy thoughts.
Posted by Boring Dad is Boring on June 9, 2014 at 3:46 PM · Report this
2
I don't see a problem here. 3 gun nuts dead with no other injuries.
Posted by garumph on June 9, 2014 at 3:54 PM · Report this
Allyn 3
"Amanda ended the revolution by killing herself and her husband."

In that order?
Posted by Allyn on June 9, 2014 at 3:56 PM · Report this
Fnarf 4
@1, if the gun idiot had just crossed his fingers and thought happy thoughts he'd still be alive today. Instead he's dead because of his brain-damaged gun ideology.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on June 9, 2014 at 4:00 PM · Report this
Charles Mudede 5
@3) fixed.
Posted by Charles Mudede on June 9, 2014 at 4:00 PM · Report this
seatackled 6
Clearly, Chuckie, this American Hero died because you faggy communist liberal pussies forced him to conceal his weapon instead of openly carry it.

@3

A powerful enough gun would be able to penetrate two bodies, like when Nick Nolte shot Eddie Murphy to kill the bad guy with a gun behind Eddie Murphy in one of those 48 Hrs. movies. So she could have killed herself and then her husband.
Posted by seatackled on June 9, 2014 at 4:05 PM · Report this
Sir Vic 7
Did the Millers refer to each other as "Honey Bunny"?
Posted by Sir Vic on June 9, 2014 at 4:13 PM · Report this
Hernandez 8
The poor, deluded fool. Sacrificed himself at the altar of American Gun Hero Fantasies.
Posted by Hernandez http://hernandezlist.blogspot.com on June 9, 2014 at 4:13 PM · Report this
kellyllek 9
so the good guy with the gun got killed? there goes that argument...
Posted by kellyllek http://www.youtube.com/user/pike024 on June 9, 2014 at 4:14 PM · Report this
Rotten666 10
@2,@4

Regardless of your beliefs the guy didn't deserve to die, he was trying to do the right thing and protect others. Your comments are ugly just for the sake of being ugly.

Posted by Rotten666 on June 9, 2014 at 4:17 PM · Report this
seatackled 11
@7, @9

Maybe the good guy with the gun was Honey Bunny and Mrs. Miller was the Bad Motherfucker.
Posted by seatackled on June 9, 2014 at 4:18 PM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 12
Basic handgun training does not include steps called “moved towards the position“ and/or “confront” under these circumstances.

The correct course of action is to immediately deliver a controlled pair of shots to the thoracic cavity as quickly as possible (followed immediately by a single shot to the cranial optical cavity if the subject is not incapacitated) and then take cover and scan for other aggressors.

With basic proper training, all of this is possible in 3-4 seconds and with good accuracy from a concealed draw at 40 feet. (I know 70 year old women who have mastered it in 3 days of training). The error that cost him his life wasn’t bringing a gun to Walmart. It was failing to bring adequate training on how to use that gun in a live fire situation to Walmart.
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on June 9, 2014 at 4:20 PM · Report this
13
@6 superhero died because Jared had his 6 covered.
Posted by #oo on June 9, 2014 at 4:21 PM · Report this
seatackled 14
@10

No one deserves to die, not even the Millers. He may have been trying to protect others, but he certainly wasn't doing the right thing, which would have been to get the fuck out of there along with everyone else and let people with actual professional training handle the situation.
Posted by seatackled on June 9, 2014 at 4:21 PM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 15
We know from the trend of the last 40 years that the sanest of gun owners have been reacting to this kind of news by realizing how useless guns are and getting rid of them. Leaving only the kooks of the kooks to keep the faith. That trend continues.

So some of today's gun owners will come to their senses. You won't hear from them; you'll hear from those still in the grip of the delusion. Those guys, they will close the circle tighter with the fervor of dead-enders on a mission whose goal they no longer remember.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on June 9, 2014 at 4:23 PM · Report this
16
We don't know enough yet.

But my sense is that Wilcox might have been a gentleman and sexist and didn't believe that Amanda could be a killer. He may have assumed that a little 'ol sweet thing like Amanda needed to be protected.

As to @6, yup those damn holsters slo u down. I advise open carry, safety off and finger on trigger in any WalMart. And do it with a buddy. Never shop alone!
Posted by Peter von Wanker on June 9, 2014 at 4:24 PM · Report this
17
@6, he was killed because he was forced to conceal his gun? But he already drew his gun. Did those two cops they shot first have concealed guns?
Posted by GermanSausage on June 9, 2014 at 4:24 PM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 18
Admittedly, good handgun training also says to take any other option available (in this case, apparently, “get out”) and only draw your weapon as a last resort.

So again… Poor training.
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on June 9, 2014 at 4:27 PM · Report this
19
@14 writes
"No one deserves to die, not even the Millers."

How do you get that? EVERYONE dies at some point and the Millers brought it on themselves NOW. Their murder/suicide saved us a lot of money and waste of legal time and some ridiculous "political trial" where they could scream about liberty.

But worry about the Millers death? no loss at all except in the most general vaguest sense that life has tragic elements and had they a better family upbringing and more mental health counseling, they'd be fine productive citizens, maybe even Obama supporters. Cry for people who deserve it, like the cops'/Wilcox families. (Wilcox obviously erred but he was trying to do the right thing.)
Posted by Peter von Wanker on June 9, 2014 at 4:38 PM · Report this
Backyard Bombardier 20
@12, @18 Do I take your comments to mean that you are in favour of requiring all purchasers of handguns to show proof that they have "basic proper training"?

If so, I salute your commitment to the "well-regulated" clause of the Second Amendment.
Posted by Backyard Bombardier on June 9, 2014 at 4:38 PM · Report this
Rujax! 21
The delusions of the Gun Fetish Death Cult shattered.

Shame, that.
Posted by Rujax! http://rujax.blogspot.com/ on June 9, 2014 at 4:46 PM · Report this
22
@1: Seeing that Jerad Miller had a gun clearly caused Joseph Wilcox to piss himself in fear. Otherwise he could have safely vacated the premises along with all of the other survivors (you know, EVERYBODY else) instead of just being another tally on the Miller Body Count.
Posted by treehugger on June 9, 2014 at 4:46 PM · Report this
Rujax! 23
@10...

The guy was an idiot vigilante.
Posted by Rujax! http://rujax.blogspot.com/ on June 9, 2014 at 4:48 PM · Report this
Lew Siffer 24
So if John Meis got shot in the head instead of disarming the shooter would troll him for trying to be a hero?
Posted by Lew Siffer on June 9, 2014 at 4:52 PM · Report this
Fnarf 25
@12, in real-world situations, virtually no one has that ability, not with a handgun at a range of more than a few yards. Even highly trained military personnel need constant range training to be any good -- training that no one gets at the local gun-nut range. Friggin' COPS can't do it most of the time.

Your cowboy fantasy is a danger to others. This isn't the way people are supposed to behave. At no point in our history have we had so many people poised to start shooting in common areas like stores and schools with no idea what they hell they're doing.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on June 9, 2014 at 4:56 PM · Report this
26
I am inferring from this: "He continued: "As soon as he began to confront Jerad Miller with his firearm, " that he did something like point his gun at the shooter and tell him to drop it. If I am incorrect, I retract this. If not:

Do not draw a gun you don't intend to shoot, and don't point a gun at anyone or anything you don't intend to kill. Draw and shoot immediately, or do not draw. Guns are not for intimidation.

(This whole thing is a giant pile of horrible and I'm very sorry for the loss of the loved ones of the innocent victims.)
Posted by drivel on June 9, 2014 at 5:03 PM · Report this
Bonefish 27
20 ftw
Posted by Bonefish http://5bmisc.blogspot.com/ on June 9, 2014 at 5:05 PM · Report this
Leishalynn 28
She was the weak, he was the tyranny of evil men and the hero? He was trying, Ringo, trying real hard to be the shepherd.
Posted by Leishalynn on June 9, 2014 at 5:10 PM · Report this
COMTE 29
@24:

Poor equivalency argument. At the time Wilcox confronted the Millers by brandishing his own weapon, they were already carrying not only their own firearms, but the two dead cops service revolvers, so they already had him massively out-gunned before he even had a chance to fire off a round. Meis, on the other hand, faced a situation where his assailant was actually in the process of reloading a shotgun - something that requires a bit of time and dexterity to accomplish - and presumably didn't appear as a direct threat, because, no obvious weapon was visible.

Wilcox was armed and exposed, his killers knew it, and one of them (who he may not even have realized was an accomplice) eliminated him as a threat. In short, his gun did absolutely nothing to protect him; in fact, it did exactly the opposite.
Posted by COMTE on June 9, 2014 at 5:14 PM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 30
@20
I would go further. I say bring back high school ROTC and make it mandatory. Even if you never plan to own a gun, you should know how to use one safely. Knowledge is power people.
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on June 9, 2014 at 5:15 PM · Report this
Fnarf 31
@24, Jon Meis didn't have a gun. That's kinda the whole point here.

Your worldview is a cancer.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on June 9, 2014 at 5:16 PM · Report this
32
Everyone should learn to handle and carry a handgun if everyone had one then these two idiots would have been vastly outnumbered
Posted by Hawkofshadows on June 9, 2014 at 5:33 PM · Report this
33
The problem is not in the ownership of guns per se but in the hysterical need by many people to be unregulated.

Most countries have gun control far tighter than ours. Take a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of…
There are a lot of prosperous capitalist countries out there which seem to get by fine with tight regulation. And people do own guns. Plenty enough for sport, hunt and self-defense. (How many guns can you shoot at the same time?)

My own theory is that we are still fighting the Civil War and since LBJ and then Obama, the racists have gotten even more scared that they will lose.

It's too bad that Obama doesn't emphasis more of his own white roots.
Posted by Peter von Wanker on June 9, 2014 at 5:50 PM · Report this
Backyard Bombardier 34
@30 So rather than simply requiring that prospective gun owners show proof of proper training before they purchase a gun, you are proposing mandatory military training for the entire population? You have a fascinating approach to individual rights.
Posted by Backyard Bombardier on June 9, 2014 at 5:51 PM · Report this
seatackled 35
@17

Try getting a stepladder.
Posted by seatackled on June 9, 2014 at 5:55 PM · Report this
36
Are there any instances of a random 'good guy with a gun' stopping one of these events? It seems like the most common outcome besides the shooters either suiciding or getting taken out by the authorities is for unarmed bystanders to tackle them while they're reloading. Heck, in the Giffords shooting, the 'good guy with a gun' almost made things worse by rushing onto the scene too late and nearly firing on the unarmed people who tackled the shooter.
Posted by Avi on June 9, 2014 at 6:04 PM · Report this
Boring Dad is Boring 37
@31: So what are you going to do about it besides rage away here on some Internet forum? Do you feel powerless? You sound like maybe you have some anger issues.
Posted by Boring Dad is Boring on June 9, 2014 at 6:07 PM · Report this
38
@37

I know what you mean and some people here do vociferate a bit. Easiest thing to do is respond gently with a nice firm "STFU". That always settles 'em down.

And since you seem like a good egg, I am glad that you are going to join in and support I-594. Good on ya! as we say in New Zealand.
Posted by Peter von Wanker on June 9, 2014 at 6:14 PM · Report this
raindrop 39
Or he could have succeeded and only one person would be dead instead of three. Given that most mass shooting ends either by suicide or other lethal force, there are many permutations.
Posted by raindrop on June 9, 2014 at 6:16 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 40
@ 37, you should be aware that you're describing yourself.
Posted by Matt from Denver on June 9, 2014 at 6:17 PM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 41
@34
We basically did, (for men at least) until the 70's.
Seems to be working for the Swiss.

I support your assertion that the "well-regulated" clause of the Second Amendment requires it.

And how is requiring a broad basic education an infringement of individual rights?

Next you will be calling for the elimination of the US Department of Education.
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on June 9, 2014 at 6:30 PM · Report this
42
@#24
The problem isn't that Miller tried to intervene, hoping to save lives. That's the good part! The problem is that a lifetime of indoctrination told him that his gun made him a superman, that he thought because he had a gun he could save the day right away.

Meis on the other hand knew the limitations of his pepper spray and waited for an opportunity.
Posted by Warren Terra on June 9, 2014 at 6:33 PM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 43
@34
Mind you, I don’t object to your proposed approach. I just think it can be improved upon.
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on June 9, 2014 at 6:34 PM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 44
@42
I highly doubt that if Meis had been killed by a second gunman during his attempt to disarm Ybarra with pepper spray he would be being treated the same way as Wilcox is here.
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on June 9, 2014 at 6:44 PM · Report this
venomlash 45
Bad form, Mudede. I'd consider Mr. Wilcox a hero. Why? He put his own life in jeopardy, ultimately losing it, in an attempt to stop two murderers. He could have stayed where he was, but he went in to try and protect others. Whether or not he was successful takes nothing away from his valor.
Inveigh against Neo-Nazis and the Teahadi fringe. Mock the NRA. But respect and honor Mr. Joseph Wilcox, because he laid down his life to protect his fellow citizens without anyone asking.

@39: Um, what? They had already murdered two cops. If he had succeeded in stopping them, there would be anywhere from two to four dead.
Posted by venomlash on June 9, 2014 at 6:47 PM · Report this
long-time reader 46
@14, yes, they deserved to die; and I hope they burn in hell.

@26 is correct. You do not point a gun at anybody/anything you do not intend to destroy posthaste.

And @45 is also correct. Wilcox had the best of intentions, and I respect him for that, but his poor execution (pun not intended...okay, somewhat intended) cost him his life.
Posted by long-time reader on June 9, 2014 at 7:02 PM · Report this
47
@42

The lesson which I think you are indirectly suggesting is that general public needs more self-defense training. What is best, smartest thing to do in different crisis situations?

Starting with ideal situation...suppose Wilcox was an off-duty cop. A beat cop with street- smarts. He's at the cash register and 50' something starts to happen. What should/could he have done? You start with the ideal scenario for a trained person _with_ a gun and then everyone else not trained has to back off from that behavior. Did Wilcox do exactly what a trained cop would have done?

So maybe the lesson is "know your limitations" and if you don't even know them, do nothing.
Posted by Peter von Wanker on June 9, 2014 at 7:17 PM · Report this
COMTE 48
@32:

Does it really require pointing out that all 3 of the Miller's victims were armed, and that 2 of them had extensive training?

The only thing that would have been guaranteed in your hypothetical scenario is a lot more casualties due to collateral damage.
Posted by COMTE on June 9, 2014 at 7:31 PM · Report this
passionate_jus 49
@41

You must not know much about the military, if you think that being in high school ROTC (or the regular military for that matter) means that you know anything about using guns. I bet that very few high school ROTC's ever even get close to a gun.

Since I was in the military for 8 years and went through ARMY basic at Fort Sill, OK in 1994, let me tell you how it works. Unless you are in the infantry you don't get that much training with guns. The vast majority of people in the military are not in the infantry. Think personnel clerk, truck driver, gas attendant, doctor, radio specialist, etc etc.

The vast majority of military members, both enlisted and officers had a similar experience to what I had:

I learned how to take apart, clean, put back together and shoot an M-16. I had to be good enough to qualify, which wasn't really that hard. You don't have to be proficient in order to stay in the military, just decent enough.

I also got to shoot an M-16 at night, with tracers, an M-60 and throw two grenades. Each time I asked my DI where I was aiming. I was told to just aim downrange and to throw the grenades over a wall. Nothing else. There was no point to it; they were just marking off boxes on forms that were required by their superiors.

I, like most other soldiers (think Elvis!), never learned how to fire any other types of weapons. Just the M-16. No handguns, no shotguns, no other types of rifles. Most of what we did was for show, like throwing the grenades. Marking off little boxes.

After basic we had to qualify on the M-16 every so often. I think maybe every year or every other year. And it wasn't that hard. Most soldiers aren't marksmen.

I bet you the Swiss Army (and probably every army) is the same way, since they have about a ZERO chance of ever needing their training in an actual combat situation. Hell, I bet you even the average Israeli soldier isn't that great with weapons. Every army on earth has more support staff than actual infantry soldiers on the front lines.

So, no, bringing back the draft would do NOTHING to ensure that gun owners are properly trained. NOTHING.
More...
Posted by passionate_jus on June 9, 2014 at 8:21 PM · Report this
50
Check this:
60% -- Americans who supported a handgun ban in 1959
26% -- Americans who supported a handgun ban in 2011
Fascinating.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/09/politics/b…
Posted by Peter von Wanker on June 9, 2014 at 8:49 PM · Report this
51
Note sure where that quote came from, but the Gillespie is the Sheriff, not a witness. Great Reporting.
Posted by Causticmatt on June 9, 2014 at 10:19 PM · Report this
52
So that comment was what first came to mind including the typo. I meant to simply say "Not sure where that quote came from, but Gillespie is the Sheriff." I realized who it came from didn't really matter for the story. My apologies for the initial passive aggressiveness that the site published although I had edited it.
Posted by Causticmatt on June 9, 2014 at 10:26 PM · Report this
53
@42:
The problem is that a lifetime of indoctrination told him that his gun made him a superman, that he thought because he had a gun he could save the day right away.
Where is your evidence for this assertion?

In my mind, Meis and Wilcox did the same thing. They both risked their lives to end an active shooter event. Meis was successful; Wilcox was not. The prevailing theme here seems to be that Wilcox fucked up, and consequently died, and is therefore deserving of scorn. I think that's pretty unfair.
Posted by seilo on June 9, 2014 at 10:44 PM · Report this
seandr 54
My takeaway? Owning a gun greatly increases one's likelihood of getting shot.
Posted by seandr on June 9, 2014 at 10:48 PM · Report this
55
So you want a revolution. Well, you know...
Posted by We all want to change the world on June 9, 2014 at 11:03 PM · Report this
56
Has Boogie Nights taught us nothing??
Posted by Tippy Katz on June 10, 2014 at 1:07 AM · Report this
Dirtclustit 57
another ultra classy bullshit job of reporting what either never happened or if it did the journalist's telling of the story is so far from reality it's essentially a lie.

People with integrity and a spine are able to address the topics directly, people who are interested in resolution are the only ones qualified to take part in resolving the issues that plague the human race.

Idiot sensationalists, political strategists, and others who believe in manipulation over a well framed constitution of law, are the people who labor to confuse the public.

They are reason we have such a confused majority within The People.

Because they themselves are extremely confused and completely ignorant, and the ones who are not that labor to confuse are the definition of the evil and tyranny of wicked men

either way, fuck you charles
Posted by Dirtclustit on June 10, 2014 at 2:27 AM · Report this
Dirtclustit 58
The tell tale of spineless journalism, "according to blah blah blah" in this case drunk Kevin over at CNN, and without mentioning the thieving of images and intellectual property, and even if the authors names weren't synonymous with spineless, bullshit journalism, anybody who was at the hypothetical Starbucks with at least one very attractive transgendered person, would be able to tell you why -- if the entire story is not completely fabricated -- that the details and images used are complete and utter bullshit.

What exactly is the point of publishing such manipulative information?

only a man's man could tell that, only someone with the typical male ego, which so often reaches levels that can only be described as a disease, could tell you what would possess a person to publish this sort of reporting.

Journalists whom are not respectful of the truth are the exact ones whom daily abuse the rights that some people respect and hold dearly, there is a reason that right was the first amended, but ignorant people are not likely to ever understand why it's important to exercise your rights responsibly

go fuck yourselves Charles and Kevin et al
Posted by Dirtclustit on June 10, 2014 at 2:46 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 59
Posts like this are exactly the reason why Slog has absolutely zero credibility any more. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty http://www.nra.org on June 10, 2014 at 5:42 AM · Report this
60
@2 - ummm, I think you're forgetting the two police officers who were killed while eating pizza.
Posted by Charlie Mas on June 10, 2014 at 6:13 AM · Report this
61
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
And the only thing that stops that good guy with a gun is a bad girl with a gun.
And the only thing that stops a bad girl with a gun is that same bad girl with that same gun.
Posted by maschu on June 10, 2014 at 6:17 AM · Report this
62
Some of you are so dillusional, and are totally missing the point. The REALITY is that just because you have a gun, if you are not trained to use it, you are going to get yourself, and possibly others, killed. This guy had NO BUSINESS trying to confront someone, but he felt bold and brave because he had his gun on him, and all he did was get himself killed. He's not a hero, sorry to say, because what he did was not heroic, it was careless and reckless. I am sorry that he lost his life, and I am sorry for his family that has now lost a loved one due to stupidity.

One more thing: those of you who say this wouldn't have happened if was able to openly carry, are you even thinking logically? Even if he had his gun out, waving it around, do you really think those two crazy "Patriots" would have been scared of him? They had already killed two police officers, so some guy at Wal-Mart wasn't going to stop them.

Posted by Cane_4_Life on June 10, 2014 at 7:57 AM · Report this
Foggen 63
Do you say the same thing when police get shot?
Posted by Foggen on June 10, 2014 at 8:03 AM · Report this
JonnoN 64
OMG YOU GUYS - 5280 says you have no credibility!! Quick, dry those tears and fix everything before he leaves!
Posted by JonnoN http://www.backnine.org/ on June 10, 2014 at 8:43 AM · Report this
seatackled 65
@64

Well, I did call Charles "Chuckie" and everyone else a bunch of faggy communist liberal pussies who caused the death of this American Hero with their anti-Freedom activism @6 above, so surely I must have some credibility and need not be ashamed.
Posted by seatackled on June 10, 2014 at 8:59 AM · Report this
66
"The reality is that a situation like this is always clouded by confusion. And throwing more guns into it only adds more danger to this confusion." Charles, that's the smartest thing you've ever written. Amen.
Posted by NotYourStrawMan on June 10, 2014 at 9:45 AM · Report this
67
God, I hate to find myself agreeing with Mudede, but...I find myself agreeing with Mudede. The guy tried to be a hero - I think we can laud his action on an individual level while criticizing its social policy implications - but he did step into a very volatile situation in the misguided belief that his gun gave him control he didn't have.

Now twice we've seen that a good guy with a gun isn't the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun. Time to retire that self-serving fallacy.
Posted by Centrists Rule the World today on June 10, 2014 at 10:03 AM · Report this
evolume 68
The problem is he wasn't a well regulated militia.
Posted by evolume http://twitter.com/evolume on June 10, 2014 at 10:19 AM · Report this
69
The man tried to help. He took his chances. Doing nothing is always the safer route than trying to protect others. Glad some people still opt for the latter.
Posted by seatownr on June 10, 2014 at 11:33 AM · Report this
70
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-ve…
Posted by SeaTownRefugee on June 10, 2014 at 11:40 AM · Report this
71
"Amanda ended the revolution by killing her husband and herself."

Disgusting attempt to confer any sort of honorable status on either of these two shitbags. But in any case, turns out it was the police who killed Jerad Miller, not his wife.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-ve…

Sorry, Charlie.
Posted by SeaTownRefugee on June 10, 2014 at 11:51 AM · Report this
72
Ohhh, so it's not the fault of the person who shot him, it's his fault for trying to intervene to save others. Gotcha.
Posted by laceymical on June 10, 2014 at 12:48 PM · Report this
Texas10R 73
"The Walmart Man Who Would Be Alive Today If He Didn't Have a Concealed Weapon "
–Charles Mudede

How nice; a grammatical error in the headline.

Note to Charles: One of the best ways to dispel a setreotype is to AVOID PERPETUATING IT.
Posted by Texas10R on June 10, 2014 at 1:31 PM · Report this
Texas10R 74
Pardon, should be:
"stereotype"
Posted by Texas10R on June 10, 2014 at 1:33 PM · Report this
TCLballardwallymont 75
FUD and hypocrisy, the pillars of the Fear of Guns Cult are on full display in this thread.

What do any of you know about Mr. Wilcox and his beliefs, aside from the willingness to risk his own life in defense of others?

By all means folks, keep telling each other how Mr. Wilcox was fearful, deranged, indoctrinated, and stupid. That's exactly how I would characterize you people, so it all balances out nicely.
Posted by TCLballardwallymont on June 10, 2014 at 3:29 PM · Report this
COMTE 76
@75:

The late Mr. Wilcox's stupidity is irrefutable. The fact that we now have to append "the late" to his name is a pretty clear indicator of that. He didn't "risk his life in defense of others" for the simple reason that the Miller's quite specifically allowed everyone in the Target store to escape unharmed. Wilcox chose to ignore this, to squander the opportunity to escape with everyone else because he was mistakenly, fatally under the delusion that he was "the good guy with the gun" who would vanquish the "bad guy with the gun", while completely failing to perceive there was more than one "bad guy (gal) with a gun" to prevent him from realizing his fantasy.
Posted by COMTE on June 10, 2014 at 5:06 PM · Report this
77
I was informed that staff at "the Stranger" have multiple mock profiles and leave comments on articles like this simply to drum up controversy surrounding their article, with the intention that it be shard or liked more often. Sometimes these mock "people" don't even believe as their comments state they are just lookin to get a rise out of people. That's bullshit. Let your writing stand on its own merit. You who do this are the lowest form of filth.
Posted by Joe Bawden on June 10, 2014 at 6:54 PM · Report this
78
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell
Posted by Leftygunowner on June 10, 2014 at 7:26 PM · Report this
COMTE 79
Uh-oh look out, @77 has finally caught on to the concept of "trollbaiting". Welp, I guess that's a wrap everyone, the Internets are over. It was good while it lasted, but clearly we can no longer continue now that our deep, dark secret has been burned like a wayward moth against the glaring torchlight of reason.

See you at the bar...
Posted by COMTE on June 10, 2014 at 7:27 PM · Report this
TCLballardwallymont 80
@75

From the accounts given, he was worried they were going to kill someone, a fear that was well founded by the now cold, dead bodies of their victims, and the fact that Jerad had begun firing his weapon.

The only thing he did wrong was to not shoot Jerad the instant he had a chance.

Your fictional, biased story, ascribing judgements and decisions to Mr. Wilcox that no one will ever be privy to is frankly disgusting. You can't spin Mr. Wilcox into an anti gun narrative. The only way that works is if you attack the character of a man who died trying to stop murderers. I don't often say this, but Fuck You if you think that's ok. Fuck you and get shot in the face at a walmart, or while you're eating pizza please.

Mudede I expect this shit from, he did refer to bridge jumper suicides as drama queens who should just go kill themselves quietly after all. I thought you might have more class.

@77 "I was informed that staff at "the Stranger" have multiple mock profiles and leave comments on articles like this"

I heard the worst one was a Stranger Staff account by the name of 'Charles Mudede'. Huge troll.
Posted by TCLballardwallymont on June 11, 2014 at 12:00 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 81
@ 80, given that the investigation is ongoing, you can only be describing a fantasy because the facts are not known, other than that he pulled a gun and did no good with it. All else is your bias and the effects of NRA propaganda.
Posted by Matt from Denver on June 11, 2014 at 8:02 AM · Report this
82
@17, Urban dictionary is your friend. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…
Posted by ML77 on June 11, 2014 at 11:12 AM · Report this
COMTE 83
@80:

Are you ranting at yourself? I presume not. So, you want some facts. Try these on for size:

There were numerous eyewitness accounts to what transpired when the Millers ran into the Walmart store after shooting the two cops. Here's how it was described in the initial news report:

"The duo then left the restaurant and walked over to a nearby Walmart, where Jerad Miller fired a shot into the air and told people to get out, shouting that it was 'a revolution,' (Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Assistant Sheriff Kevin) McMahill said."

Miller would have had no way of knowing what had previously transpired, and YOU have absolutely no idea what went through his mind. All we do know is what he told his companion at the time: "Bystander Joseph Robert Wilcox, 31, who was carrying a concealed weapon inside the store, spotted Jerad Miller and told a friend he would confront him, according to authorities. As he neared Jerad, he was shot in the ribs by Amanda and later died, McMahill said." This, AFTER Miller fired the warning shot and AFTER he told bystanders to leave.

Here's the testimony of Wilcox's friend Jeremy Tanner:

"Wilcox, was with Jeremy Tanner, a longtime friend at a Las Vegas Walmart when the Millers walked through the door. Tanner recalled seeing Jerad Miller come into the store, seeing Miller dressed in some kind of fatigues and wearing gear.

Tanner had to very quickly process what was happening.

He heard Miller shout, "This is the beginning of the revolution! Everybody get out! You will be shot!"

Tanner looked at his friend Wilcox. He knew Wilcox had a concealed carry permit and sometimes had a gun on him. Customers and staff were fleeing the store.

Wilcox 'had the option to go left to exit the store to safety,' Tanner told CNN. But he chose not to leave. Wilcox instead stayed inside and confronted Jerad Miller, Tanner said.

Tanner told CNN his friend was unaware that Jerad Miller was with Amanda Miller. Wilcox was shot, authorities said."

So, the only pertinent question here is: why DIDN'T he leave with everyone else when he had the clear opportunity to do so? It certainly wasn't to "protect" anyone, as you have speculated, because by the time he acted, everyone else was in the process of high-tailing it out of the store. We don't know at this time if anyone else there was carrying, but regardless, we DO know that Wilcox was the ONLY person who felt compelled to confront Miller, and apparently the only reason he felt that way was because he had a gun. So, it's not at all unreasonable to surmise he did so because he thought the gun would somehow protect him, which it most certainly did not.

But you do bring up one interesting point: Why, if Wilcox was so intent on "saving lives" didn't he just shoot Jerad Miller when he had the chance? According to other reports, he approached Miller from behind, so he even had the element of surprise to some extent. But for some reason, he didn't even draw his weapon until he was in close proximity, and by then Miller's wife, who was herself already armed and seeing him approach, apparently moved in behind him, shooting him when he finally did draw.

So, again: why did he feel it necessary to walk up to a man whose weapon was already drawn and attempt to confront him? It doesn't take a person with even a modicum of tactical firearms training to recognize that was a pretty stupid move on his part: to openly approach the shooter, thus eliminating the advantage of cover and distance, to have no stituational awareness of a potential accomplice, and to have no actual plan other than to "confront" an armed man.

According to another news report, his mother claimed he "had long wanted to be a police officer. But she had warned him that the job was dangerous." Other reports confirm he had applied to the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Force, but had been rejected. Now, what does all THAT tell you about his mind-set?
More...
Posted by COMTE on June 11, 2014 at 11:24 AM · Report this
84
We live in a country where pussy liberal douchebags think standing up for yourself or others is not the right thing to do. They blame the guns being used for these horrible acts instead of the sick twisted individuals committing them. Gun control not solving the sickness that is destroying our society. You all make me sick and are turning people into monsters willing to do anything to get away from you.
Posted by slk78 on June 11, 2014 at 6:00 PM · Report this
85
Also @80 what makes you qualified to say what he had to be thinking? Where you there? Maybe you're a psychic? I know you're a superhero Captain Hindsight. The police obviously don't even know what happened their story keeps changing. For all you know he thought he could save a civilian or police officer's life. Good job Captain
Posted by slk78 on June 11, 2014 at 6:16 PM · Report this
86
Good God, the level of idiocy in these comments is amazing. Yes, this guy, trying to help, got ambushed. So that somehow proves that all people with concealed carry licenses should never intervene? The police got ambushed too, or did some of you forget that? Using the logic on this site, then I guess the theory of waiting for police to intervene is also out the window; so I guess we should let lunatics shoot up the country with impunity.

To answer one of the questions this site, yes, concealed carry permit holders have stopped shootings, there are many examples, including the Oregon mall shooting. In that case, the individual just had to show his weapon, and that caused the shooter off himself. Most of the time, when a concealed carry permit holder intervenes, doesn't become a "mass shooting," it's stopped well before it gets that far.
Posted by Sven79 on June 12, 2014 at 6:14 PM · Report this
87
All these people bad mouthing the man that went out of his way to try to stop these two nut-jobs should be ashamed. He took a chance and it didn't pan out. If it had then the Anti-gun Left would now be going over the what-ifs to make the man look like a trigger happy nut. The man was a hero with bad luck and just because he died doesn't mean that his noble sacrifice should in any way be cheapened. If a nut-job shooter walks into a Walmart near you let's hope that you can run fast enough or that there is someone in there with guts and a concealed firearm.
Posted by MrApple on June 12, 2014 at 6:28 PM · Report this
88
Am so tired of hearing disparaging comments regarding Mr Wilcox!!!! How does ANYONE on this forum know to what extant his training was? Training DOES NOT equal success or ability to survive EVERY confrontation. No one is perfect. No training is perfect. Practice doesn't necessarily equate with perfect. So, please get off this man's back. Leftist keep saying that we have to "DO SOMETHING" about violence. Well, he did. He confronted it. Yes, he was unsuccessful and was killed. He couldn't have known that the woman pushing a shopping cart was an accomplice. He saw an attacker with a gun and he took action. It's not been stated what kind of firearm Mr Wilcox was carrying. Most carry guns are not well suited for shots at 50 feet. And that is a dilema that armed civilians have....and attacker does not care about whomever else he may shoot. He just fires away. So if you're going to bash Mr Wilcox, then why not bash the two cops who were ambushed while having lunch. Weren't THEY supposed to be the trained ones? Next time you make a mistake in your given profession...think about how well "trained" you are!
Posted by Jason Perry on June 12, 2014 at 7:17 PM · Report this
COMTE 89
@87:

It wasn't "bad luck" and Wilcox didn't "take a chance" - it's not like what he did was akin to throwing craps and hoping for the easy seven - he did something incredibly stupid and ill-thought through and he paid the price for his stupidity and lack of tactical decision-making. And speaking of "what-ifs", it wouldn't have mattered if he HAD been successful - he still would have been stupid for having done it. Luck and intelligence aren't correlational.

And in this particular instance, you articulate exactly what he SHOULD have done, what Jerad Miller gave him the chance to do, and what his grieving family and friends probably wish he had done - run like hell away from the scene. Remember, he WAS the guy in there with the concealed firearm. Throwing his life away for no good result doesn't make him a hero -the only thing his "guts" and his gun made him was dead.
Posted by COMTE on June 12, 2014 at 7:47 PM · Report this
90
You ammophobes have NO idea of what your talking about......
Posted by Roger V. Tranfaglia on June 12, 2014 at 9:49 PM · Report this
91
How many people were able to run to safety while the killers were focusing on the "good guy with a gun"?
Didn't mention that aspect, did you?
I know why...
Because people like you are inherently selfish. So the guy died. Tragic, but his death saved more lives than we'll ever know. How many lives did he save by drawing the attention of the killers? How many people were able to get away because they heard the gunshot that killed him instead of an innocent bystander?
But no. In your mind, because he didn't survive himself, his death was meaningless.
That man was willing to confront an armed man to protect total strangers. And you're all laughing at him because it wasn't what you would have done.
You're all pathetic cowardly charlatans with no concept of self-sacrifice.
Put yourself in that Wal-mart, in that crowd, and realize that this guy died to protect you, even though in your eyes, he was stupid and deserved it.
Posted by Jeff Fisher on June 13, 2014 at 5:18 AM · Report this
92
As opposed to the thousands each year who are alive because they had a gun?

You people sensationalize statistically rare individual incidents like emotional drama queens in fits of hand-wringing bed-wetting, nanny-state liberalism, the while ignoring statistically-proven facts.

Gun sales are up, violent crime is down. See: FBI UCS.

Spare us. Please.
Posted by teebonicus on June 13, 2014 at 8:11 AM · Report this
93
As opposed to the thousands each year who are alive because they had a gun?

You people sensationalize statistically rare individual incidents like emotional drama queens in fits of hand-wringing bed-wetting nanny-state liberalism, the while ignoring statistically-proven facts.

Gun sales continue to trend up and gun owner demographics continue to expand, while violent crime continues to trend down, per the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics.

Spare us. Please.
Posted by teebonicus on June 13, 2014 at 8:15 AM · Report this
94
Forgive the duplicate.
Posted by teebonicus on June 13, 2014 at 8:16 AM · Report this
95
To Comte

So we should all run like hell from from people who have murdered policemen? To only save our own lives??? That would be great our whole country just running away from criminals! So what do you think would happen then? Read the news it's happening in Iraq right now. He is a hero he tried to stop 2 killers but unfortunately did not. What would you do if that was one of your loved ones they were about to kill? Run and save your own life? By your posts I think you would. Some of us are willing to put our lives at risk to save others whether or not guns are involved. If he would have died trying to save lives in a car accident by using his own car would you still call it "STUPIDITY"??? Think about it!
Posted by rgh1972 on June 15, 2014 at 8:42 AM · Report this
96
To Comte

So we should all run like hell from from people who have murdered policemen? To only save our own lives??? That would be great our whole country just running away from criminals! So what do you think would happen then? Read the news it's happening in Iraq right now. He is a hero he tried to stop 2 killers but unfortunately did not. What would you do if that was one of your loved ones they were about to kill? Run and save your own life? By your posts I think you would. Some of us are willing to put our lives at risk to save others whether or not guns are involved. If he would have died trying to save lives in a car accident by using his own car would you still call it "STUPIDITY"??? Think about it!
Posted by Rgh1972 on June 15, 2014 at 8:48 AM · Report this
97
I find it so strange that some people can think that the gun he carried was the cause of his death. With the same logic wouldn't the cops guns also caused their death? So where are the anti gun people clamoring to take away guns from the police? When you look at the facts, the two police officers were also ambushed and supplied the two loons with more fire power. So let's make sure that the police are unarmed across America. This way we will all be safe?
Posted by duey on July 2, 2014 at 6:54 PM · Report this

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