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Monday, June 9, 2014

SL Letter of the Day: Come A Little Closer

Posted by on Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 2:50 PM

I'm 19 and I've been sleeping with a 39-year-old for a few months—which I know sounds like a really bad idea but he's really kind and I've enjoyed the time we've spent together and I'm really attracted to him. My problem is I've never been able to cum with a partner in any capacity, I can't even make myself cum in front of them, I've just kind of accepted that I can't cum with another person only on my own. I knew it bothers the guy I've been sleeping with he's tried really hard to get me cum with his mouth hands, and dick. He's said that he thinks I'm mentally having problems letting go, which is absolutely true but I still can't cum. The other day I went over to his place and he had bought like 4 different types of dildos anal beads and a vibrator. I still didn't cum, I don't know what to do. I want to continue to sleep with him but I feel if I continue not to be able to cum he won't want to. I have a lot of issues with my self including body dysmorphia disorder, eating disorders, and problems with self harm that I'm trying to work through. I feel that this is why I can't cum though I've never told him about any of that and I really don't want to but I really think that's why it's so hard for me to be open. I am really attracted to him, and I really like sleeping with him. What else do you think I should try to do to solve this issue?

Come On Already

My response to COA—and hers to mine, and mine to hers—after the jump...

A quick note before we get to my exchange with COA: I somehow misread the first line of her email as "I'm 39 and I've been sleeping with a 19-year-old." Adult onset dyslexia—is that a thing? Suffice it to say, Slog, I probably wouldn't have sent my initial two-word response to COA if I had realized that she was the teenager in this relationship. Anyway...

Try pot.—Dan

I smoke often.—COA

Have you tried masturbating alone in a room while he is somewhere else in your apartment?—Dan

No only when he's in the same room watching me.—COA

But you come fine when you masturbate solo?—Dan

Yes it's pretty easy to cum alone.—COA

My advice for you: plant that boy outside your bedroom door—your closed bedroom door—and masturbate solo. Put a pair of headphones on him and play some loud music so he can't hear you. If you can come that way, try again with the door open but still with your boytoy blindfolded and headphoned. Come that way? Great: next time put him in the room, at the foot of the bed, sitting in a chair—also blindfolded, also headphoned. Now you can see him, COA, but he can't see or hear you. Gradually bring him a little bit closer after each successful masturbation scene until he is in your bed without a blindfold or headphones on. It'll take some time to get there, COA, but think of all the orgasms you'll have along the way.—Dan

Ok I'll give that a try. Thank you!—COA

I didn't realize my mistake—COA is 19, her boytoy is 39—until I pulled her letter up for the SLLOTD. Oops. I would've mentioned the "campsite rule" and the "tea and sympathy rule" to COA if I had caught the mistake while we were emailing. I probably should've urged COA to tell her 39-year-old boytoy to stop pressuring her, as that's probably not going to help. There's a difference between being invested in your partner's pleasure and putting pressure on your partner to perform pleasure for your benefit.

 

Comments (92) RSS

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1
19? 39? No, no. I'm sorry; I'm sure there are exceptions. But a 39-year-old man and a 19-year-old young woman? Who's apparently dealing with her own inner issues that make her vulnerable? While the man is putting heavy pressure on her and making her feel guilty over what's really a non-issue? Bad idea. It would be bad enough even with the ideal older man and the emotionally healthy young woman. A 39-year-old man and a 19-year-old woman are at way different stages in life with very different goals and motivations.
Posted by And I say this without having met them on June 9, 2014 at 3:08 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 2
So... did she come?
Posted by Urgutha Forka on June 9, 2014 at 3:11 PM · Report this
nocutename 3
This is more than pressure. This guy is far too invested in whether or not she orgasms and he's making her feel anxious and stressed.

They are the perfect storm for some kind of damage: she's full of insecurities (I have a lot of issues with my self including body dysmorphia disorder, eating disorders, and problems with self harm that I'm trying to work through. ), and now she's fearful that he'll withdraw himself and the sex if she doesn't orgasm for him (I want to continue to sleep with him but I feel if I continue not to be able to cum he won't want to. )

He had stocked his house like it was the warehouse at Adam and Eve and then hounded her about her ability to orgasm, telling her it's her fault for not being able to let go.

Jeez, who could let go under those circumstances! He's almost twice her age--talk about a power imbalance. Not only does this motherfucker pick a girl who's half his age, he's chosen one who has serious psychological issues, some of which involve self-esteem and body image. That can't be coincidental. He's chosen someone he can prey on and manipulate.

This girl needs to DTMFYesterday and to get some support and help along the way. The guy is verging on emotional abuse.

I know you got the ages wrong, Dan, but it's not enough to put this up and say "oops." You should write this girl back and give her very different advice. You owe her that.
Posted by nocutename on June 9, 2014 at 3:13 PM · Report this
4
@3: I will direct her to the comments.
Posted by Dan Savage on June 9, 2014 at 3:18 PM · Report this
5
LW, if you want to orgasm with someone, that's cool. And you can work toward that. But don't do it just because your partner wants you to. It's a bad mindset, and it won't work well, and will probably make things worse. Feeling obliged to orgasm is arousal-killing. Here's what you need to think about: Are you happy with the sex you're having? Is your partner enjoying it from his perspective? If you both enjoy it, then why does he have a problem with how you enjoy it? A good partner will accept that you can enjoy something in your own way. If he can't, dump him. And only start working on ways to orgasm with a partner when you desire it for yourself because you think it'd be fun and enjoyable and is something you want to do. But you never owe a partner you orgasming, and it's really unreasonable for a partner to complain about how you are enjoying the sex you're having. There isn't a right way and a wrong way to enjoy sex. If you're enjoying it, you're enjoying it.
Posted by uncreative on June 9, 2014 at 3:32 PM · Report this
6
I agree that this relationship does not sound healthy. Given her issues, I'd suggest therapy (individual, let me stress, not couples and not sex therapy)
Posted by Jude Fawley on June 9, 2014 at 3:35 PM · Report this
7
I agree with #3. I think the LW needs to put more time into dealing with the self-harm and eating disorders than in pleasing her boyfriend. Who seems to be making her orgasms all about him instead of about her pleasure.
Posted by msanonymous on June 9, 2014 at 3:36 PM · Report this
8
Ms Cute - While "almost" could technically be true by now and will be true within the next two years, may I venture to guess that you were given the "Math is hard!" Barbie as a child and have never recovered from the experience?

I wish Mr Savage had used gender-neutral language to refer to the LW; female-typical issues with male-typical spelling make for quite an interesting combination.
Posted by vennominon on June 9, 2014 at 3:37 PM · Report this
9
#3 had it. Even if the ages were reversed she should dump him, but the power dynamic here is beyond icky.
Posted by genevieve on June 9, 2014 at 3:41 PM · Report this
10
You also didn't tell her to spell it "come" like a grown-up. :| Ugggghhhh at "cum."
Posted by JenV on June 9, 2014 at 3:42 PM · Report this
11
Jesus Christ! She's nineteen. Her sexuality is barely begun. She won't reach her peak for another 12 or 15 years.

If whatever she's doing now is fun, and the relationship is otherwise healthy, then leave it be. If it's not fun, or the father/daughter age thing is unhealthy, then stop doing it.

In either event, treat it as an affair. It's apparently not the first, and it won't be the last.

And, don't neglect those other issues. Being in love with someone may take your mind off your troubles, but it doesn't make them go away. Find the right therapist if you haven't already, and get the support/do the work.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on June 9, 2014 at 3:44 PM · Report this
nocutename 12
Mr. Ven, I agree that the spelling suggests COA is male, And I wasn't entirely sure that COA is female--the dildos and anal beads could indicate a person of either sex, and even the vibrator, while typically pointing to use by a woman, could be used by a man. But the specific issues the lw mentions, body dysmorphia, eating disorders, and self-harm, point me more towards thinking that the lw is a female. In the end, I don't know that it matters, where advice is concerned. In this case, I see a poisonous situation: a vulnerable, much younger person with lots of psychological issues wanting desperately to please a lover 20 years older than his/her 19-year-old self who is making the younger partner's ability or inability to orgasm an occasion of super-added anxiety, and seems to be either explicitly or implicitly threatening the younger partner with the withdrawl of his affections if the younger one can't orgasm. The armchair psychologist in me would suggest that the lw has "daddy issues" and not in the sexy way.

I cop to the heteronormativity, but ultimately the sex of the younger partner is really irrelevant.

Why the I hate math charge?
Posted by nocutename on June 9, 2014 at 3:52 PM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 13
When I was younger, I had problems coming with other people. Too self-conscious, too nervous, too much thinking about what others think, too much pressure. At a certain point in the course of the event, I got tired of my partners/boyfriends trying. Moshe needs to deal with her issues about perception and image before she anything. And she needs to tell the guy to lay off the pressure and let her be comfortable with herself.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on June 9, 2014 at 3:53 PM · Report this
nocutename 14
@Brooklyn Reader: If whatever she's doing now is fun, and the relationship is otherwise healthy, then leave it be. If it's not fun, or the father/daughter age thing is unhealthy, then stop doing it.

Does what the lw describes sound like fun to you? Does it sound like the relationship is healthy?

She sounds kind of tormented to me.
Posted by nocutename on June 9, 2014 at 3:54 PM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 15
@14 Did she bring these issues to the relationship? Or, is the relationship aggravating the issues?

I got the sense that the issues pre-dated the relationship, but I wasn't able to determine which came first.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on June 9, 2014 at 4:20 PM · Report this
DAVIDinKENAI 16
"Adult-onset dyslexia" is totally a thing. I've used that exact term for 31 years now.

I mean 13 years.
Posted by DAVIDinKENAI on June 9, 2014 at 4:53 PM · Report this
Cat in fez 17
Dan calls the letter-writer 'her' in his remarks. Maybe he knows something we don't, like her email handle?
Posted by Cat in fez on June 9, 2014 at 4:57 PM · Report this
DAVIDinKENAI 18
"Gradually bring him a little bit closer after each successful masturbation scene. . . "

No. No, no, no. Just no. It's not quite how to de-sensitive an anxiety or phobia and it's not how you gain comfort in a previously self-conscious setting. It's close though.

After you successfully come with the BF far, far removed, do it again and again AT THAT DISTANCE (3 to 5 times-ish) until it holds NO emotion charge or triggers for you. When you're as relaxed in that setting as you would be totally alone, only then have him get a little closer.

And work in whatever positive reinforcements you can. Orgasming is one, clearly. But what would be relaxing, satisfying and comforting to the GF? Maybe that's a back rub with no sex allowed. Maybe he tucks her in and lets her drift off to sleep. Maybe it is the BF doing PIV with her until he comes so she doesn't feel guilty about him "going without". Whatever is most relaxing to her.

He's got it good. A much younger, GGG GF who "enjoys the time we've spent together " even when she's not coming. Hopefully, he'll patiently assist in her SLOWLY becoming comfortable with him around for her climaxes.
Posted by DAVIDinKENAI on June 9, 2014 at 5:06 PM · Report this
Alison Cummins 19
nocutename @12,

The boyfriend is *more than* twice her age, not *almost.*

19 x 2 = 38 < 39
Posted by Alison Cummins http://cleanmyscreen.peghole.com/ on June 9, 2014 at 5:08 PM · Report this
20
@13 agreed, however, she need not be celibate while working through her issues. An understanding, compassionate partner can be a really excellent cushion during the very hard work that is effective therapy. LW, by being with this asshole, you're closed off from being with somebody who would actually be an asset. DTMFA
Posted by wxPDX on June 9, 2014 at 5:14 PM · Report this
MacCrocodile 21
"mouth hands"
Posted by MacCrocodile http://maccrocodile.com/ on June 9, 2014 at 5:39 PM · Report this
22
Isn't it even more important to spell out the campsite rule to the younger person in the relationship? Given the number of letters along the lines of "I followed the campsite rule except for 2 out of the 3 parts, but my intentions were good and that counts more than any shit I actually do to the kid, right?" With occasional bonus "Why are they not willing to have sex with me anymore, and can you tell them that's not okay because I really didn't mean to hurt them?"

Fwiw, interpreted lw as female until "cum" and then as male, but when Dan uses a gender I always assume he knows more than I do.
Posted by IPJ on June 9, 2014 at 5:50 PM · Report this
23
LW: "My problem is I've never been able to cum with a partner in any capacity."

She has other issues, but this is what she wrote Dan about. I like the advice @18. I'd add to bring in whatever masturbation aids work best when you're alone (vibe, position, specific videos or stories).

Posted by EricaP on June 9, 2014 at 5:53 PM · Report this
24
I'm not anti-pot, but I think encouraging a person who says she has massive mental-health issues to smoke pot (or to self-medicate with any other drug) seems like a terrible idea. (and yeah, even leaving out the age, a guy who brings along a whole toy store because his partner doesn't orgasm is creepy).
Posted by adam.smith on June 9, 2014 at 6:23 PM · Report this
25
I was in this EXACT same situation at 19. Words of experience--DTMFA. If a 39-year-old man can't see that he's pressuring this girl, he's more invested in her as midlife crisis proof of his manhood. In his mind she's a red sports car, not a girlfriend. I'm not saying May-November can't work, but not with this dynamic. He's supposed to be bringing maturity and experience and focus on her to the relationship. Instead, it's become all about his "sexual prowess".
Posted by Marrena on June 9, 2014 at 6:41 PM · Report this
26
Bleah, he made me watch that creepy Woody Allen film with Mariel Hemingway. Memory popped up while writing this second comment.

I was going to add that my problems orgasming with a partner went spectacularly away later in life. Will not plug my book here, because that's not what this young woman needs, but I am EXTREMELY orgasmic with partners now, along the lines of Guinness Book of World Records, so just wanted to give some encouragement to her that things change and it gets better.
Posted by Marrena on June 9, 2014 at 6:46 PM · Report this
seandr 27
I'm with EricaP - let's answer the question she asked based on the information she provided rather than jumping to conclusions based on our scorn for older men who date younger women.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with this guy taking the initiative as long as she's on board, which she seems to be. I've been on the other side of this with a woman who'd never had an orgasm at all, and who, like this 19 year old girl, was far too inhibited and repressed and psychologically, um, complicated? at the time to take the initiative herself. So I did, and things worked out well. Efforts like these can have happy endings.

I have a lot of issues with my self including body dysmorphia disorder, eating disorders, and problems with self harm that I'm trying to work through. I feel that this is why I can't cum though I've never told him about any of that and I really don't want to but I really think that's why it's so hard for me to be open.

And here is the crux of the issue. Until you really connect with a guy - i.e., trust him, let him in emotionally, share your history and worries and insecurities - the orgasm project is doomed to failure. So, decide whether you can be emotionally close with this guy. If so, let him closer and see what happens. If you can't, either because you're not ready or because you don't trust him, just tell him it ain't gonna happen.
Posted by seandr on June 9, 2014 at 6:52 PM · Report this
28
@27 there is a difference between taking the initiative and pressuring, and this guy is old enough to understand the difference between the two. Age should count for something.
Posted by Marrena on June 9, 2014 at 6:58 PM · Report this
29
Didn't see the LW ask for guidance on whether she should end this relationship. She does say he is kind/ though obviously a little too enthusiastic and yes a bit too pushy.
LW, at least you don't try and fake it, as many of us women have done for untold yrs.. Took me a while as a young woman to find the position during sex, where I could cum( haven't got the memo yet that this word is " not adult enough").
Reaching orgasm with another does involve being vulnerable. Maybe some therapy to help you unravel the issues that are behind the symptoms you present, would be very beneficial.
And perhaps, ask your lover to back off a bit.. Reassure him of your enjoyment of his company. If he leaves you because you can't cum in his presence, it would be a pretty shallow reason to end a connection..
Posted by LavaGirl on June 9, 2014 at 7:19 PM · Report this
30
Joyce Maynard and JD Salinger. Just sayin
Posted by anonymous healthcare worker on June 9, 2014 at 7:29 PM · Report this
31
@14 What I think doesn't matter. It's her decision. I just laid out what I thought was the question she has to answer. I don't know what her life was like before this guy or whether anything about this relationship is fun or important to her right now. Sounds like she thinks it might be, and if the comments here don't talk her out of it, it might still be a mistake, but it's hers to make. Hopefully, it'll at least be a stepping stone to some better relationship in the future and not three steps back.

As far as being tormented goes, been there, done that. Love is grand. Love is blind. Love hurts. But, if you survive the broken hearts, you might eventually get it together enough, meet the right person, and realize what you've got.

Meanwhile, I stand behind the therapy suggestion.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on June 9, 2014 at 7:43 PM · Report this
very bad homo 32
I don't trust a 39 year old man who would date a teenager. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just feel like there's something not quite ok with that.
Posted by very bad homo on June 9, 2014 at 7:49 PM · Report this
seandr 33
@Marena: there is a difference between taking the initiative and pressuring

Yes, there is, although it's a fine line, and it only gets finer when your partner is holding you at arm's length, emotionally speaking.

There's also a difference between wanting to give your partner an orgasm and "he's more invested in her as midlife crisis proof of his manhood. In his mind she's a red sports car, not a girlfriend." A pretty big difference.

Posted by seandr on June 9, 2014 at 8:31 PM · Report this
34
Dan, why would you explain the campground rule to the 19 year old? Shouldn't you have explained it when you thought COA was 39?
Posted by idaho on June 9, 2014 at 9:11 PM · Report this
35
@33 LOL, you keep telling yourself that.
Posted by Marrena on June 9, 2014 at 9:26 PM · Report this
seandr 36
@very bad homo: I don't trust a 39 year old man who would date a teenager.

In the end, I guess I'd have to agree, even if it completely contradicts everything I previously said. At this point in my life, the only reason I would subject myself to an emotionally and sexually undeveloped woman, whatever her age, is out of pure desperation.

Posted by seandr on June 9, 2014 at 9:31 PM · Report this
nocutename 37
A few years ago my mother was visiting from out of state and she accompanied me to the doctor for a routine visit. As we were leaving, we stopped by my friend the plastic surgeon's office, so I could say hi and set up a lunch date, and my mother decided to do one of those "while I'm here, could you take a look at _____" presumptions on the doctor's friendship with me. Mom wanted to know about getting a mole removed for cosmetic purposes. My friend indulged her but noticed a different mole--one that she thought might need a closer look from a dermatologist. She made the suggestion, and my mom made an appointment (thankfully, it wasn't cancerous).

So yes, the lw asked Dan about how she can get over whatever block she has to coming (or in her case, cumming), in the presence of a partner. But Dan, like my friend the plastic surgeon, could see something else if he chose to, something that might need a bit more attention than the problem the advice-seeker was asking about. There is something that looks more disturbing in this letter.

Now hopefully the situation is as benign as my mother's mole was. But it warrants a closer look, even though that's not what the lw was asking about.

The insistence, the priority, that the middle-aged man is putting on this teenager's needing to come to make him happy, to the point where she is utterly anxious and afraid of losing him, the power imbalance inherent in the age difference (and presumably life experience differential), the fact that she's afraid she won't hold on to him if she fails to deliver on the orgasm front, the myriad of emotional/psychological issues she describes--any advice giver would be remiss if he didn't suggest that she consult a specialist and get a closer look.

Once her general health is assured (or once treatment for the restoration of it is underway), then the issue of how to relax enough with a partner to orgasm with a partner present can be undertaken.
More...
Posted by nocutename on June 9, 2014 at 9:53 PM · Report this
38
"Adult onset dyslexia—is that a thing?" -- yep, I have this. One of its many symptoms: In the olden days I knew right from left almost instinctively. Not any more.

Posted by Swobbie on June 9, 2014 at 11:16 PM · Report this
seandr 39
@nocutename: That's a useful analogy.

However, from my male perspective, there are two points that just do not resonate with me based on what I'm reading in this particular letter.

1) The power differential. 39 and 14? Sure. 39 and 19? She's an adult. If there are power issues, they are just as likely to go either way.

2) The priority of making her come. Yes, there's some male ego wrapped up in that, just like there's female ego wrapped up in being able to get your man randy and hard. That's just how normal human sexuality works.

But for a man, making a woman come is also about creating intimacy and closeness and strengthening the bond. I can still remember the fist time I made every single one of my LTRs come. It was a big milestone in every one of those relationships. If this guy is overly fixated with making her come, it's because he senses, correctly, that she's holding back, and he's standing on thin ice.

Is the relationship going go the distance? Probably not, if only because LW may not be ready for real relationship. Frankly, it's probably better for her to play the "I'm going to hide my true feelings" game with some desperate older guy than a naive younger one. Is it cancerous, as your analogy would suggest? Only if you make some rather bleak assumptions about men.
Posted by seandr on June 10, 2014 at 12:14 AM · Report this
seatackled 40
I think the Math and Barbie comment is my favorite this years.
Posted by seatackled on June 10, 2014 at 12:35 AM · Report this
Alison Cummins 41
seandr @39 “I can still remember the first time I made every single one of my LTRs come.”

Interesting. I remember the first time my first boyfriend made me come. It was a big deal. After that, I was the one coming. Nobody was ‘making me’ come, I was coming with my [collaborative] partner.

I remember the first times I did something new/ was shown something new. I remember the first kisses that confirmed a connection with someone new. I don’t remember showing each partner how I prefer to come.
Posted by Alison Cummins http://cleanmyscreen.peghole.com/ on June 10, 2014 at 2:24 AM · Report this
42
Ms Cute - My post nearly consisted of one word: "Almost?" Of course, you could be right if she's close enough to twenty, but that we can't assume. One other thing that struck me was the repeated use of the word, if I'm awake enough to count, eight times in six of eleven sentences.

Ms Cummins - Actually, the word he typed was "fist", which adds several dimensions to his post, and could make the nominations for Typo of the Year.

Ms Jen - Perhaps this is one of those situations in which something (the spelling used by LW) is juvenile when done by a man and empoweringly feminist when done by a woman. Or perhaps Mr Savage went for a subtle rebuke in the creation of her signature.
Posted by vennominon on June 10, 2014 at 3:54 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 43
While I agree that a 39/19 relationship should raise some eyebrows... wow. One of the most recent threads here was about how awful it is when men don't care if you come or not. Today, it's about how creepy it is when men do care if you come or not.

If I hate your kind of people when they're outside, and hate them when they're indoors, what am I?
Posted by Eudaemonic on June 10, 2014 at 6:25 AM · Report this
nocutename 44
@seandr: I'm making no bleak assumptions about men.

I understand that having your partner come is important (sissoucat should use this as an example of the extreme opposite of the kind of men she's overwhelmingly run into), and I get how significant it is to be part of it, to "make" someone come (although I tend to agree with Alison Cummins, about whether or not someone is making someone else come).

To me this isn't about whether or not this relationship is going to go the distance. It's probably not. But that's not the point.

One needs to be relaxed to orgasm and she's already said that she's not. She says that she thinks her issues are why she can't orgasm, but she also said that she "really" doesn't want to share any of her body-related issues with him. He intuits that it might be more a mental issue rather than a physical one, and what does he do? Does he try to create an environment where she can relax and share some of those issues with him? Does he reassure her that her body is working fine the way it is? Paradoxically, that could help, because if the pressure is off and if she feel enough acceptance, she might be able to relax enough to come with him. After all, this issue isn't that she's anorgasmic--it's that she can't come with a partner present--she can't even masturbate to orgasm in front of one. It probably is a "let it go" issue.

Nope, his response to thinking that she's "mentally having problems letting go" is to bring out as much heavy artillery as he can find--he appears to have maxed out his credit card on didos, anal beads, and a vibrator. How is walking into his home and seeing this arsenal supposed to relax the lw? She just feels added pressure for her body to perform. I suppose he thinks that if he subjects her to enough stimulation, her body will triumph over her mind, but that's not how it works, and most of us have figured that out by the tine we get to be close to 40 years old. If age is supposed to confer maturity, that hasn't happened here. She senses that he's going to stop having sex with her if she can't orgasm--another level of pressure ratcheting up.

I once had a boyfriend who watched me like he was studying me for a science experiment. He stared and stared and said things like "how about this?" "Does this feel good?" "Do you like this?" But he wasn't saying those things in a sexy way; he was ticking them off a sort of mental checklist that seemed to be imprinted on a clipboard in his head. It was anxiety-producing. Instead of focusing on how good I was feeling, I just felt anxious and as if I was letting him down. I felt pressure to perform, which was one of the reasons that I decided to stop sleeping with him. In both of our defense, we were both 20 years old.
More...
Posted by nocutename on June 10, 2014 at 6:28 AM · Report this
nocutename 45
Eudaemonic: There's caring about whether your partner orgasms, and there's making them nervous because their body isn't performing satisfactorily for you. There's being enthusiastic and there's projecting an attitude that tells your partner that you'll stop having sex with them if their body fails to act the way you want it to.

Things aren't as black-and-white as hating your kind of people when they're outside, and hat[ing] them when they're indoors; things are more nuanced than that.

Posted by nocutename on June 10, 2014 at 6:34 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 46
@44: ...he appears to have maxed out his credit card on didos, anal beads, and a vibrator.

Sorry for going after you here, but this is more interesting than the LW's (everyday) problem (which has ably been addressed. LW, if you're reading this, scroll back up and read 3 and 27 again). Think about your statement for a moment--his partner was having trouble reaching orgasm, so he bought a couple of toys to try. If this sounds familiar, that's because it's exactly what everyone here recommends to men who have anorgasmic partners--"try some toys." But for some reason, you said that about him. Try to imagine saying that about a person in this situation who you didn't hate. Would you accuse them of maxing out their credit cards on an "arsenal," or would you, you know, talk about them as if they were a human being who's partner has a problem and is trying to help?

@45: There's caring about whether your partner orgasms, and there's making them nervous because their body isn't performing satisfactorily for you.

Agreed. Do you have any reason whatsoever to think LW's partner is doing the second one? Or is it the same as the evidence that he's "maxed out his credit cards," i.e. evidence that you made up?
(The fact that she's nervous isn't it, because a) men don't actually have mind-control powers, and b) someone with her psychological issues being nervous doesn't mean anything, because that's normal.)

If you need to make things up in order to make the LW's partner look bad, then you want the partner to look worse than he does. Think about that. Why do you want him to be an asshole? Like, what's in it for you?
Posted by Eudaemonic on June 10, 2014 at 6:55 AM · Report this
nocutename 47
Eudaemonic: Sorry. I had a very thoughtful response almost all the way written for you, and then I clicked a button and the internet or my computer ate it. I don't have the time or energy to redo it.

Posted by nocutename on June 10, 2014 at 7:17 AM · Report this
nartweag 48
This!!!!!
"I once had a boyfriend who watched me like he was studying me for a science experiment. He stared and stared and said things like "how about this?" "Does this feel good?" "Do you like this?" But he wasn't saying those things in a sexy way; he was ticking them off a sort of mental checklist that seemed to be imprinted on a clipboard in his head. It was anxiety-producing. Instead of focusing on how good I was feeling, I just felt anxious and as if I was letting him down. I felt pressure to perform..."
Sex is suppose to be fun. Playing around to find what a partner likes is fun.... mental checklist isn't.
For some people, like myself, often even encouragement to come can set back the intensity of an (already started) orgasm. It can feel like a performance.
Posted by nartweag on June 10, 2014 at 7:44 AM · Report this
49
If this sounds familiar, that's because it's exactly what everyone here recommends to men who have anorgasmic partners--"try some toys."


noooooo. If your partner has no problems masturbating to an orgasm (i.e. not an anorgasmic partner), then "try some toys" is most certainly not the answer and it doesn't sound familiar, either, at least not in this space.
The answer is invariably "take the pressure off the big O." And that's the answer that Dan has given dozens of times in similar circumstances.
Why on earth should toys help when it's quite obvious--even to the boyfriend--that the problem is psychological, not mechanical?
Posted by adam.smith on June 10, 2014 at 7:51 AM · Report this
50
I haven't made it far through the comment thread yet but @3, 7, and 9 hit the nail on the head. The problem is not the orgasms. The problem is a 19-year-old with apparently profound psychological issues, dating a guy more than twice her age, who makes her feel like damaged goods. Take some time off from dating, dear child, and get your own shit right. You are not ready for a relationship, as evidenced by the choices you have made thus far.
Posted by sugar7898 on June 10, 2014 at 8:33 AM · Report this
51
Ms Cute @47 - Oh, I so hate when that happens. My sympathies.
Posted by vennominon on June 10, 2014 at 9:26 AM · Report this
nocutename 52
Mr. Ven, Thanks. I think it might have been the universe sparing readers already tired of me!

And I finally see what the Barbie comment was a response to. Ha! I was only focused on the fact that someone was bound to say that the age difference wasn't an issue--I was just anticipating if I said "twice her age" that I'd get grief for it, because it wasn't literally true, so I made sure to be not as precise. I guess I could have made my point even stronger had I accurately said "more than twice as old as she is."

But I mean you've got Eudaemonic upthread @46, taking my hyperbole at face value and thinking I'm really suggesting that the guy maxed out his credit cards by buying 4 dildos, anal beads, and a vibrator, so I can't win. (In self-defense, my credit card is so near its limit that I would be in danger of maxing it out with that purchase, especially if I bought one of those fancy, hipster vibrators!).
Posted by nocutename on June 10, 2014 at 9:36 AM · Report this
53
@49 Because most women can't orgasm from vaginal penetration alone, so the problem IS -- to some degree -- mechanical. When women masturbate, it's all about the clit, an area that tends to get neglected during p-in-v sex.

But I'd be surprised if dude would go for toys. He sounds like the kind of dude whose manhood would be threatened by a vibrator.
Posted by Kalakalot on June 10, 2014 at 9:59 AM · Report this
nocutename 54
@ 53 (Kalakalot): You said, I'd be surprised if dude would go for toys. He sounds like the kind of dude whose manhood would be threatened by a vibrator.

I don't think so.

From the original letter: "The other day I went over to his place and he had bought like 4 different types of dildos anal beads and a vibrator. "

So I don't feel the need to tar that guy with this particular brush. Contrary to what seandr and Eudaemonic might think, I'm not ani-male and I'm not applying "all men are selfish, stupid assholes who are always in the wrong" thinking in my responses to COA.
Posted by nocutename on June 10, 2014 at 10:22 AM · Report this
55
@45: There's caring about whether your partner orgasms, and there's making them nervous because their body isn't performing satisfactorily for you.

@49: The answer is invariably "take the pressure off the big O."

I think these cover the desired attitude.

To gender-flip this I'm going to borrow Seandr's point that the female equivalent of "see, I am a good lover and this person is turned on by me" is the male getting hard, fast. So imagine that when he's really tired, this doesn't happen, and her attitude is not to unpressuredly adapt to either going to sleep or letting him work on her, but to SOLVE THIS MALFUNCTION. She is going to rub until he gets hard, damn it. And the next time he gets off a 12 hour plane flight from Japan he can expect an array of toys so they can figure out what he needs to do to fit the script she has.
Posted by IPJ on June 10, 2014 at 11:49 AM · Report this
56
@53—except we're not talking p-in-v. We're talking all different types of stimulation:
he's tried really hard to get me cum with his mouth hands, and dick.

including the author masturbating herself:
I can't even make myself cum in front of them

so yes, this is most definitely psychological and psychological only.

@55 - I was thinking of the gender-switched analogy, too—well put!
Posted by adam.smith on June 10, 2014 at 5:10 PM · Report this
57
Maybe , some men just get so many mixed messages about what they should be doing... The old " slam , bam, thank you ma'm", no longer gonna cut it.. Modern western women demand their desires are taken care of.. So, some guys, I assume- do the check list thing-
So they won't get into trouble..
At 19, the maturity is maybe just not there to say/
"yep, you know what. Can't come in another's presence . Got some issues, I'm working on them.. No reflection on you, enjoy our time tog. But putting pressure on me, makes it much harder. Spotlight orgasm is a big turn off"..
Posted by LavaGirl on June 10, 2014 at 7:09 PM · Report this
Philophile 58
I don't think that she's a great candidate for the tea and sympathy rule, nor he for the campsite rule. At 19, I would suggest dating around, trying mutual masturbation with guys until she finds one who she can get there with. But Dan's advice is great if she decides to stay with him.

Self harm seems to be the worst problem mentioned.
Posted by Philophile on June 10, 2014 at 8:51 PM · Report this
59
To the guys out there this might shock you but women are people. We're not interchangeable. One woman's issue with coming may be completely different from another woman issue with coming.

And motivation counts. There's a different between wanting your partner to orgasm because you really like them, orgasms are great, and you want to share that with your partner.

And wanting them to come because you view them as some sort of malfunctioning machine that should be fixed or else you'll lose 'Man Points' because everything is about your penis.
Posted by msanonymous on June 10, 2014 at 10:51 PM · Report this
Eudaemonic 60
@54: Contrary to what seandr and Eudaemonic might think, I'm not ani-male and I'm not applying "all men are selfish, stupid assholes who are always in the wrong" thinking in my responses to COA.

That's why I was curious about the motivation. When an unusually-honest person goes all-in on "I've decided this person is evil and I'm okay with having to make up reasons to believe it," there's always something strange and interesting going on.
Posted by Eudaemonic on June 11, 2014 at 5:53 AM · Report this
61
@59--Just wanted to point out you are making the same kind of sweeping generalizations about men that bother you when they are made about women: "To the guys out there"; "because everything is about your penis".

This might shock you but guys are people. We are not interchangeable. We are not universally motivated, and your assumptions about Man Points are ignorant and condescending.
Posted by LateBloomer on June 11, 2014 at 5:59 AM · Report this
nocutename 62
Eudaemonic: My "motivation" was in reading the original letter carefully. I think the points made in posts @49, 50, and 55/56 say what I was going to in response to you (but rather more succinctly and effectively).

I don't have an anti-male agenda; I don't always see every man as being in the wrong. I most particularly don't have a "damned-if-they-do-damned-if-they-don't" attitude. The letter was disturbing to me for several reasons, and my main concern was for the emotional and psychological well-being of the young woman who wrote it.
Posted by nocutename on June 11, 2014 at 7:36 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 63
@62: I don't have an anti-male agenda; I don't always see every man as being in the wrong. I most particularly don't have a "damned-if-they-do-damned-if-they-don't" attitude.

I know. That's why I got curious about what was going on here.

The letter was disturbing to me for several reasons...
I got that, too. I was asking what those were, since the ones so far presented are demonstrably not the case. There's got to be something going on here, because this seems so out of character.

...and my main concern was for the emotional and psychological well-being of the young woman who wrote it.

I don't really believe this, though--if that had been the case, wouldn't "advise the LW to get therapy" have been a stronger urge than "make up negative-but-obviously-false stories about the LW's partner?" If the falsehoods had been for the LW's benefit, I feel like more effort would have gone into making them convincing.

I think the points made in posts @49, 50, and 55/56 say what I was going to in response to you (but rather more succinctly and effectively).
Odd choice of 4 posts. 49 makes false statements about the advice we usually give here, 50 falsely assumes that LW's boyfriend has mind-control powers, 55 tells the same lie about advice we give here (remember all those times when we've advised male partners to try using something other than just their own body? I do too. The people who say we don't do that? They are ignorant or lying).

56 lies about this even more directly, and takes the novel step of actually quoting the part he's lying about, removing any chance for us to fail to notice he's lying:
@53—except we're not talking p-in-v. We're talking all different types of stimulation:

"he's tried really hard to get me cum with his mouth hands, and dick."


So, he hasn't tried vibrators. When we're not in Cloud Cuckoo Land, under those circumstances we say "Have you tried a vibrator?" Since vibrators have been mentioned extensively in this thread, it's impossible that he doesn't know what a vibrator is. Therefore, when he quotes "mouth, hands, and dick," it's impossible for him to actually think that means "we're talking all different types of stimulation." It's impossible for him to be telling the truth.

Therefore, adam.smith is lying. Why are you pointing to someone who is painfully obviously lying and saying "They said what I was going to, but more succinctly and effectively?" It might have been succinct, but it was also obviously false.

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Posted by Eudaemonic on June 11, 2014 at 8:01 AM · Report this
nocutename 64
Eud: You and I have different definitions of "lying." This isn't the first time you have accused someone of lying when they reach a different interpretation than you did. I prefer to give all but the most egregious trolls the benefit of the doubt and assume that we all bring our own biases, history, and issues in when we read and respond to a letter--which is a static thing. Some of us project quite a lot of our own issues onto these letters. I try my hardest not to do that, but of course, I'm only human. But you also seem to have a very black-and-white and literal way of looking at the world and reading: people are either truthful or lying, and also are a very literal reader: you took my obvious exaggeration when I said that the bf had maxed out his credit card literally. While I appreciate your willingness to stay closely connected with the text, which is where a lot of readers here start to project their own issues onto letters and the participants described in them, I think this literalness doesn't allow for you to read nuance very well. So I'm going to try to be as literal as possible, which is going to make for a long response here.

So for example, you accuse adam.smith of making false statements about the the advice given here when s/he says that the advice to try some toys isn't universally given, and that furthermore, considering the specific circumstances of this letter: "the answer is invariably "take the pressure off the big O." And that's the answer that Dan has given dozens of times in similar circumstances." But adam.smith is right. Not only are those true statements as they pertain to Savage Love (Dan often uses the expression, "take ____ of the menu for now"), but they are useful ones that would be given to almost anyone by almost anyone under the circumstances as related in this particular letter.

@56, adam.smith quotes the lw to support his/her point that by trying to use his mouth and hands, the bf isn't just relying on his penis alone to do the trick, which is when the advice to use toys but more often mouths and sometimes fingers is usually given. Some guys have not even wanted a woman to touch her own clit while fucking, and then were frustrated when she doesn't orgasm. These are often the men and their girlfriends to whom Dan is speaking when he says that 75% of women don't come from intercourse alone. But intercourse alone means that: it doesn't mean "no toys." It means that 75% of women require further stimulation than merely a penis thrusting into a vagina in order to come. That stimulation can be (and often is) given with another human body part: a finger (either her own or her partner's) on her clit, either coupled with the thrusting or separate from it, or through oral sex. It doesn't mean that 75% of women require a vibrator to come.

Back to the particular letter at hand: in this case, I read a letter that told me that the lw could masturbate to orgasm when alone, but not in the presence of a partner. She further says that her boyfriend thinks that she's "mentally having problems letting go," and she agrees. That tells me she isn't anorgasmic, so the general advice "try a vibrator" doesn't apply and isn't necessarily the issue, unless she's leaving out crucial info like when she masturbates alone she uses a vibrator and she hasn't brought one into the sex she's had with any of her partners. That she didn't mention it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't the situation, but I'm going with that assumption. "Try a vibrator" is often the suggestion that is given when a woman says "I've never had an orgasm, either with my boyfriend or when I try to masturbate." Try a vibrator is sometimes suggested when a man says, "all my former girlfriends could come with me, but my current girlfriend isn't coming. She says she's never had an orgasm." This woman is capable of giving herself orgasms. It's hard to understand her through this fused sentence but here it is, and I'm going to highlight the part where she tells us she is capable of orgasm: My problem is I've never been able to cum with a partner in any capacity, I can't even make myself cum in front of them, I've just kind of accepted that I can't cum with another person only on my own.

So the issue isn't likely to be resolved through bringing in toys. It's an issue of being relaxed, of letting go, of feeling comfortable.

And It's really, really hard to relax when someone is so invested in your getting to orgasm in kind of "you're-not-working-right" way. The letter writer may have included the information about what I (jokingly) called an arsenal to say that "even with all those tools my boyfriend lovingly provided me with (the 4 dildos, the anal beads, and the vibrator), I wasn't able to come. He was so considerate, and I feel like such a failure." That's a possible interpretation, and it may be the correct one. But given the rest of the letter, I read the statement He's said that he thinks I'm mentally having problems letting go, which is absolutely true but I still can't cum. The other day I went over to his place and he had bought like 4 different types of dildos anal beads and a vibrator and I thought that no matter how well-meant on the boyfriend's part that might have been, that scenario would be very anxiety-producing, which is the antithesis of what the lw needs. I also thought that since he already intuits that her problem is mental/psychological, rather than physiological and given his age, he might have been able to predict that not only would a large selection of toys not solve the problem, but that the pressure represented by them ("Does this work? No? How about this one? No? Try this. Come on, relax. We're going to get you there. What if we try this?" is the way I imagined the scenario going) was far more likely to exacerbate the problem.

It seemed to me that this boyfriend was far more invested in making the lw come than she is (she says she's resigned to not being able to come with a partner). Although I hope that her body's response will change as she (1) gets older, (2) gets more comfortable with and about her own body (3) finds a partner whom she can trust and with whom she can fully and completely relax, she's not there yet--at 19, with myriad body-related "issues," and a partner who is more than twice as old as she is who seems to be putting pressure on her to come for his own sense of gratification, so much so that she says she's afraid he will stop having sex with her if she can't perform adequately for him (btw, this is one reason why women fake orgasms): "I want to continue to sleep with him but I feel if I continue not to be able to cum he won't want to."

These are all reasons I don't think this man is good for this woman. She knows she has issues, she suspects that they are responsible for her inability to orgasm in his presence, and she doesn't feel comfortable enough with him to let him know what they are: "I have a lot of issues with my self including body dysmorphia disorder, eating disorders, and problems with self harm that I'm trying to work through. I feel that this is why I can't cum though I've never told him about any of that and I really don't want to but I really think that's why it's so hard for me to be open."

You say if I really was concerned for her well-being, I would have responded differently, and you then accused me of lying when I said that: I don't really believe this, though--if that had been the case, wouldn't "advise the LW to get therapy" have been a stronger urge than "make up negative-but-obviously-false stories about the LW's partner?" If the falsehoods had been for the LW's benefit, I feel like more effort would have gone into making them convincing.

Well, I wasn't responding directly to the lw, for one thing. My initial response was to Dan, telling him that I thought he gave the wrong, really, reaaally wrong advice, and that he needed to do more than say "ooops," which is what he had done. I saw this as a clear DTMFA issue. As to getting therapy, I'm not sure that she's not already doing that. And besides, there were already readers (EricaP and seandr prominently) who just addressed her stated question about how to be orgasmic with her partner present, while in my way, I was trying to address what I saw as a bigger issue this letter raised: the incompatibility of these two people. I believe that my answer to DTMFYesterday actually was a perfectly appropriate, on-topic answer to the question she literally asked, which was: "What else do you think I should try to do to solve this issue?"

I suppose I could have told Dan that he should have told her to get therapy, but the fact that I didn't doesn't mean I'm not concerned for her well-being, and it's insulting that you tell me that my statement that I am is a falsehood because I didn't respond the way you think I ought to have if that statement was true. I didn't make up any negative but obviously false statements about the partner. I said that the age difference was a cause for concern to me, which it is, that he seems to be putting a lot of pressure on her, which is how it appears to me, that being pressured that heavily is not conducive to achieving orgasm, which in my experience is true, and I said that she seems anxious that she'll lose him if she fails to satisfy him in this way, which the letter supports. I inferred that he has some need for her to orgasm which has less to do with his own affection for her and desire to see her satisfied for her own sake and pleasure and more to do with his own needs and possibly ego. I acknowledged that to some extent that is true for everyone, but that it seemed to be less healthy in this situation.

That was my interpretation of the situation based on my reading of the letter. Naturally I bring my own life experience into my interpretation. It may not be the same as yours; we may read the same letter and still reach different conclusions about the "reality" of the situation. I may be wrong; you may be wrong. Both of us may fail to truly grasp the true nature of the relationship. Or both of us may be only partially and imperfectly understanding. But we are trying our best to understand, and my response is based on my reading of that letter. Please don't call me a liar because I interpret differently than you would and/or respond differently than you would or you think I should if I interpret it the way I say I have.
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Posted by nocutename on June 11, 2014 at 9:35 AM · Report this
65
@59 I was generalizing but I do see this a lot. Guys being genuinely shocked when women turn out to not be the borg, and I think it's part of a larger problem in our society with how women are still seen as objects to some degree.

And yeah there a lot of good guys out there who don't do this but I'm not sure I'd trust the LW boyfriend to be one.
Posted by msanonymous on June 11, 2014 at 11:08 AM · Report this
66
@65--Great, then address your comments to the LW's boyfriend, and not to all men everywhere, like you did @59.

If you want to challenge false generalizations about women, fine. But how about not doing it by making false generalizations about men.
Posted by LateBloomer on June 11, 2014 at 12:25 PM · Report this
67
@66 But the LW isn't the only problem, a lot of male commenters were doing the same. Perhaps I should've aimed my post at them individually, but quite frankly that' takes more effort than I'm willing to give for this.

But hey you endlessly defensive posts really do a good job of convincing me of your maturity and sensitivity.
Posted by msanonymous on June 11, 2014 at 2:18 PM · Report this
68
@12, knowing only that their present ages are 19 and 39, there's a 25% chance of the older one being less than twice as old.

For example, someone who turned 39 this month compared to someone who turned 19 11 months ago.

Apparently, calendar math _is_ hard.
Posted by saccade on June 11, 2014 at 10:45 PM · Report this
Philophile 69
If she can come by herself when he's not there, and can't make herself come when he's near her, the only cause of this difference must be his presence. Which is not a physical stimulation difference; it is a difference in perception or psychological.

Four dildos a vibrator and anal beads is an excessive step that implies desperation in my experience anyway.

Eudaemonic - I find your posts to be pretentious, aggressive, and ignorant. These seem like dare I say it _obvious_ points that you are arguing should not exist. I summarized for others who may have been confused by your trolling.

I'm sure if I were pulling a burned cap out of a circuit board you would be over my shoulder hounding "it looks fine I don't think that's the problem this heat damage looks like the problem stop trying to fix it the board is broken cant' you tell? This is the first board I've examined and I can tell! DUH!" In other words, you may want to learn from others' experiences and views instead of declaring them wrong because "obviously"

I'm bothering with this because your opinions actually seem decent not hateful and maybe you're unaware that your speech can often be hateful; question more, berate less please.
Posted by Philophile on June 12, 2014 at 6:30 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 70
@64: First--thanks for taking the time to respond. I really do appreciate it.

You and I have different definitions of "lying." This isn't the first time you have accused someone of lying when they reach a different interpretation than you did. I prefer to give all but the most egregious trolls the benefit of the doubt and assume that we all bring our own biases, history, and issues in when we read and respond to a letter--which is a static thing.

How do you square this with the fact that lying is something that most people do, and that they do it pretty often? Our own biases, history, and issues are the things that make us lie. That's why--when someone does it and doesn't seem to be using it to serve an agenda--it means they've got a story they probably want to tell (and if they already seem wise, that story is probably worth hearing). I don't see noting when people lie as failing to acknowledge that they're human and have basic human failings, because lying is one of those basic human failings.

Some of us project quite a lot of our own issues onto these letters. I try my hardest not to do that, but of course, I'm only human.

Yes. Usually, you succeed, and this time it seemed like you didn't. That's why I was so curious--it meant that something's going on here that usually isn't.

But you also seem to have a very black-and-white and literal way of looking at the world and reading: people are either truthful or lying, and also are a very literal reader: you took my obvious exaggeration when I said that the bf had maxed out his credit card literally.

While I agree with your larger point, this is what I was getting at--a part of me wants to say "I'm glad you've finally come to acknowledge that you were making obvious exaggerations"--I've gotten the impression that attacking people with hyperbole isn't your usual MO. It's very hard to read #44 as something other than an expression of contempt, and "contemptuous" doesn't seem like your usual tone.

@56, adam.smith quotes the lw to support his/her point that by trying to use his mouth and hands, the bf isn't just relying on his penis alone to do the trick, which is when the advice to use toys but more often mouths and sometimes fingers is usually given.
Here's the part of 56 to which I was referring:

We're talking all different types of stimulation:

he's tried really hard to get me cum with his mouth hands, and dick.


Maybe I'm being to literal here, but "all" doesn't mean "some," and his point completely falls apart if it does mean "some," so he probably doesn't.
So, the possibilities are:
1. adam.smith doesn't know what vibrators are
2. adam.smith doesn't think vibrators provide a different type of stimulation
3. adam.smith thinks that the word "vibrators" appears in the list
4. adam.smith is lying... sorry, I mean choosing to say something that he knows is not true but hoping it will be taken as true.

1 is impossible, since he's trying to claim that there's no reason to try vibrators. 2 is highly unlikely. 3 is impossible, since he's trying to claim that it's unreasonable for LW's partner to think they need to try vibrators. 4 is in line with very common prejudices (that when it comes to sex, men are always wrong) and is the only one that isn't basically impossible.
I guess option 5 is "adam.smith doesn't know what words mean," but that doesn't seem likely either, since he writes coherent sentences. Of the five options, four are impossible or ridiculously unlikely, and one is very common, very possible, and very much matches the choices he's making. I am sorry if this seems offensive, but it's very hard to give the benefit of the doubt when there doesn't seem to be room for doubt.

Here's where I'm coming from: I 100% agree with you that LW's partner is wrong about how to approach the issue. I 100% disagree with you that this makes him so uniquely deserving of contempt. I mean, adam.smith lied, in just about the most unambiguous way possible, and he gets the benefit of the doubt. The LW's boyfriend has a problem he apparently doesn't understand, and seems to be ineptly trying to fix, and he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. Why is that?

I suppose I could have told Dan that he should have told her to get therapy, but the fact that I didn't doesn't mean I'm not concerned for her well-being, and it's insulting that you tell me that my statement that I am is a falsehood because I didn't respond the way you think I ought to have if that statement was true. I didn't make up any negative but obviously false statements about the partner.

Wait, so now we're back to saying that you weren't using obvious hyperbole? I mean, either you do think he maxed out his credit cards, or you don't. If it was hyperbole, then "making up negative and obviously false statements about the partner" is literally exactly what happened. I mean, I'm describing what hyperbole is, and you seem to be alternating between saying "that was hyperbole" and "I was making obvious exaggerations" and saying "I never did either of those." Do you understand why I have trouble believing the second part?

If I say "Hat. Hat hat hat hat. Chapeau. Baseball cap. Beret. Bowler. Hat," and then tell you that I haven't said the word "hat" or named any kind of hat, I assume you wouldn't think the second statement was true. I further assume that if you thought I was an unusually honest person, and had good reason to think I know what a hat is, you might bring this to my attention and ask what was up. Even more so if talk of hats in the first place seemed unusual coming from me.
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Posted by Eudaemonic on June 12, 2014 at 7:36 AM · Report this
nocutename 71
For fucks' sake! The fact that I said "maxed out his credit cards" doesn't render my entire post a falsehood.

Nothing is "up" with me--I told Dan that his response was wrong; I think this boyfriend is wrong for the lw. That's it.
Posted by nocutename on June 12, 2014 at 7:53 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 72
@69, Philophile: Since, yesterday, you said you believe that asking a partner to come with you when you move is "abusive," I hope you'll understand why I don't value your opinion.

If I did, I would ask why you seem to be equating being desperate with being contemptible, because I don't think they're closely connected (even if they're often seen as such).
Posted by Eudaemonic on June 12, 2014 at 7:55 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 73
@71: Fine. Is there some part of what I said that seems to call your entire post a falsehood? There was only one aspect that looked wrong to me, and I didn't mean to be throwing shade at anything else.
Posted by Eudaemonic on June 12, 2014 at 8:22 AM · Report this
74
msanonymous--it's interesting that quoting you back to yourself is considered being defensive. Perhaps you still can't see it, but from where I'm sitting, you have the most glaring double standard, and if you're trying to get men to understand women better, it doesn't help, especially if you're unaware of it.

So once again: not only do you indulge in the same misinformed, lazy generalizations that you criticize in men--actually, while criticizing them in men--you are also willing to give yourself a pass when it's pointed out to you.

I don't know, maybe you were just trying to be funny @59 and I missed it, but that's because your post came across as more snarky and condescending than funny.
Posted by LateBloomer on June 12, 2014 at 9:11 AM · Report this
Philophile 75
@72 Still berating and misreading I see. Maybe you're not so innocent ignorant, but just trolling..

I don't know why you think I mean contemptible when I write desperate. Ok I'll get trolly too.. Any other questions that you can't bring yourself to ask?
Posted by Philophile on June 12, 2014 at 9:42 AM · Report this
76
Think the full moon is making everyone a little itchy- scratchy.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 13, 2014 at 12:16 AM · Report this
Philophile 77
@76 Nice hypothesis. I wish the only time I was impatient was on full moons. Sarcasm is a hard habit to break.

Eudaemonic - Why do I bother when you are utterly unappreciative.. but I read 70 and think I can help..

Lying is intentionally issuing a false statement.
Lack of clarity is not lying. Misunderstanding is not lying. Stating opinions without reasoning is not lying. And hyperbole is not lying; it's not meant literally but is used to emphasize a point, in this case excessive behavior.

"Not just piv stimulation but all stimulation" is impossible; there's no time in one life to try every possible kind of stimulation. If you're (reasonably) reading it as "common types of stimulation" so you think it should include vibes but doesn't, well maybe Adam has a different idea of what is common (hands mouths&piv). It's unclear or hyperbole but to call it lying is.. well.. either it's lying or a misunderstanding of what lying is. For another example:

"you said you believe that asking a partner to come with you when you move is "abusive,"
Did you mean to lie or was it a mistake? My actual position is easy to cut and paste -
"it's dubious to make a huge request like moving cities and not accommodate the time and space she needed to process or follow him" and "asking for huge sacrifices without deep commitment is abusive".
Posted by Philophile on June 13, 2014 at 3:58 AM · Report this
78
@74, caught my eye you saying " if women want men to know them better",
I realize it was in the middle of a sentence. It is nice to see a man articulate the qu like that.
My take on how men could understand women..or as you put it, know them better/
The female principle embodies the Goddess- why ? Because the female form , has the potential to carry the young. A powerful task, but a very vulnerable one.
Hence the Masculine Principle, protects this energy( in order that the young survive).
It's a creative process. But yes, it can get prickly.
But it's a real conversation, or can be. Between men and women, but lots of pragmatic issues can get in the way. Running a family, for a man and a woman is hard core work/ as all the parents know.
Taking care of our young.. So in order to share this immense task together, some play has to stay.
If the women you wish to get to know better are younger women- then you gotta have your wits about you.. Because they are supper tuned in to any male assumption of privilege ..
And so they should be. Cause if it's a mate she would like to find, she wants one who knows about equal power/ or however she is running with her erotic life/ equal power is expected. ( except of course the Baptist wives, just there to serve those boys)..
And in turn, the man needs to be in his story..
It can be done with respect.. And play.

Posted by LavaGirl on June 13, 2014 at 5:13 AM · Report this
79
@70. Touché - some of your reasonings I couldn't quite grasp, but overall agreed with your analysis. Though I can understand concern shown for this young woman. Older men, by virtue of that age gap- can wield way too much power. And this girl, sounds vulnerable.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 13, 2014 at 5:30 AM · Report this
sissoucat 80
@LW if you don't feel like telling a partner about your issues, it's your right not to, as long as you're not at the stage of planning a lifelong entanglement, like kids.

@44 You're right about this guy being the opposite of what I've run into. But it doesn't mean I would love to stumble upon a gift of 4 dildos and anal beads (the vibrator is okay). Feeling like one is someone's science project, as you mentionned, is repulsive.

I wouldn't go against nocutename's assessment of the LW's partner. It might not be a truthful assessment of the guy, but it's a truthful assessment of what nocutename felt of the LW's description of the guy.

We have only the words of an enamored and anxious LW to know him by : but her viewpoint of him, though perhaps unfair, is of someone pressuring her for orgasms. And that's absolutely worthy of our attention.

How LW perceives him shows us that her relationship with him is stressful for her. And since she's deeply in love, she most certainly doesn't see that the relationship she describes is something she should gladly walk away from : so she should be told what we perceive from her words, which is something worrying.

And she should consult a specialist to tend to her issues.
Posted by sissoucat on June 13, 2014 at 7:09 AM · Report this
sissoucat 81
@seandr 36

"the only reason I would subject myself to an emotionally and sexually undeveloped woman, whatever her age, is out of pure desperation. "

I absolutely agree. The 20-years age gap does not reflect as badly on the LW's partner, as does the fact that he chose an inexperienced and not fully developped partner with issues.

That points to him also having severe issues. Is he desperate ? Is he immature ? Is he so full of shit that the more experienced women dump him fast ? Or does he need to have a much younger partner in order to show off to his friends, like men who go after models do ?
Posted by sissoucat on June 13, 2014 at 7:22 AM · Report this
82
Good points @ 80 @ 81. Nocutenames intensity then, a woman sensing danger for a younger woman.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 13, 2014 at 12:16 PM · Report this
83
Eudaemonic, the purpose of nocutename's intentional hyperbole was not to mislead. Nocutename wasn't trying to convince anyone that the LW's boyfriend actually maxed out his credit cards. There was no need for her to acknowledge her exaggeration because it was the point. It was a joke. Nocutename is not lying. adam.smith is not lying. What is challenging about this? Are you this willfully obtuse in your daily life?!
Posted by chicago girl on June 14, 2014 at 6:25 PM · Report this
84
@74 I would care but what's the point? You've already shown you have no interest in things like 'reality' or 'what I actually meant' and every interest in protecting your oh so frail ego from the mean, evil, woman who dares to point out that guys aren't perfect and sexism is a thing that exists and still affects people.

So go fuck yourself. I'm sure that you can understand.
Posted by msanonymous on June 14, 2014 at 7:17 PM · Report this
85
@84--Sigh. I didn't say, or imply, that guys are perfect, I said we're not all the same. Nor did I say sexism isn't a thing. I think what I did say is that lazy, sexist attitudes can go both ways. And you've done a bang-up job of demonstrating that. But if you can't see the sexism and condescension in your first comment, I can't help you.

Anyway, here's your stick back, I think I'm done beating this horse. Before I go, one more thought: how do sexist men often react when they're called on their sexism? Oh that's right--they get defensive, and blame others for being too sensitive.

Or insist that that's not what they actually meant.

Or get abusive and start swearing. Sound familiar?
Posted by LateBloomer on June 14, 2014 at 11:45 PM · Report this
sissoucat 86
@LateBloomer

I agree with you. Sexism often prevents us, humans, from a better understanding of our partners. Females bear the worse of sexism because our society is male-oriented, but that doesn't mean females can't have sexist viewpoints as well.
Posted by sissoucat on June 15, 2014 at 2:33 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 87
@83: Okay, I'll explain one more time:
There was no need for her to acknowledge her exaggeration because it was the point. It was a joke.

A joke which she many times claimed not to be making. Either something is the literal truth of what's in the letter, or it is an exaggeration. No one was asking if she was making hyperbolic attacks on the LW's boyfriend--though it was weird that nocutename decided to deny doing it--I was asking why this dude merited hyperbolic attacks when almost nobody else did.

After that, I was confused by the way she spent the rest of the thread oscillating between saying the obvious-- "It was hyperbole! It wasn't true!"-- and saying "nothing I said in this thread was not true." I was confused because that is confusing.

What is so challenging about this? In your daily life, are you too obtuse to understand that saying "I did X," and then, when asked why you did X, saying "I did not do X" is confusing?
Posted by Eudaemonic on June 16, 2014 at 6:16 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 88
@85: It was a noble effort...

It's a shame when people like that can't figure out that they're providing a textbook example of what sexist dipshits act like when someone calls them on being a sexist dipshit. That she thought she was calling out the specific kind of sexism she was displaying just makes it sad.
Posted by Eudaemonic on June 16, 2014 at 6:19 AM · Report this
nocutename 89
@Eudaemonic: I apologize if I confused you.

To be clear:
1) The hyperbole was meant to be a joke. The use of the word "arsenal" and the phrase "maxed out his credit card" were hyperbole. They were not meant to be taken literally, but they were meant to get at my issue figuratively. I think the description of what the lw found waiting for her at her bf's house was overkill and would be rather more intimidating than helpful, especially in light of the fact that she's already feeling pressure to perform to his standards. There are perhaps times when walking into a bf's house and finding what looks like--
--(TRIGGER WARNING: THE NEXT STATEMENT IS HYPERBOLIC--hyperbole/figurative language: joking to make a serious point)--
--the clearance table at Babeland might be welcomed, but given the rest of this letter, I don't think this qualified as one of them.

2) Everything else I wrote was serious. Even the jokes were in the service of making a serious point.

I thought I was clear and then when you suggested otherwise I thought I clarified. I don't think anyone else was misled by my comments. Even the commenters who initially seemed to take my statements as anti-men were, I hope, reassured that that wasn't my attitude. I don't quite understand how you could repeatedly misconstrue me so badly--it's like you're looking at each individual word and not the bigger picture of the message, like you almost want to misunderstand me--but I hope that now it's clear.
Posted by nocutename on June 16, 2014 at 7:41 AM · Report this
90
@85 Decent non-sexist asshole guys can do things like 'recognize sarcasm and hyperbole in an internet discussion' and 'not rush in screaming the tiresome tirade about how not all guys are jerks when women point out how sexist behavior hurts them'.

You are incapable of doing either thing.

So I'll tell this the adults are talking now sweetheart. I'm sure there's a Call of Duty game you need to be playing with your racist, sexist, rapist friends. And a Men's Rights group you need to post to.
Posted by msanonymous on June 16, 2014 at 2:43 PM · Report this
91
@88 No it wasn't. But hey I managed to confuse a guy who makes point of misunderstanding people so he never, ever have to be wrong about anything. I'm sure you two will be best buds forever!

And sissoucat it's nice to see you not playing the victim for once. But I get the feeling that stepping out your role must be scary for you. I miss the days when everything was your evil ex's fault. Don't worry I won't judge when you go back to hiding behind your tragic past.

And 85 I bet you can't leave this post alone. You will respond because gosh darn your penis needs a champion because God knows no one else wants anything to do with it.
Posted by msanonymous on June 16, 2014 at 2:54 PM · Report this
92 Comment Pulled (Spam) Comment Policy

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