Slog

Slog Music

Music, Nightlife,
and Drunks

Monday, June 2, 2014

BREAKING: Woman Not Wanted at Gay Orgy! Must Credit HuffPo!

Posted by on Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Let's play let's pretend!

Two women are having lesbian sex in a hotel room. I stroll in—let's say their door was open—and I stand at the foot of the bed, quietly observing the action. The women realize I'm standing there and ask me to leave. I inform both women that, although I am an otherwise shy and reserved person, I am standing in their room at the foot of their bed watching them have sex because I am interested in both lesbian sex and the lesbian community. Very sincerely so. The women angrily insist that I leave. Their behavior makes me feel so uncomfortable and unwelcome that I do leave—but then I stand outside the door to their room loudly complaining to anyone who will listen about how rude these women were to me.

Was I the victim? Is this incident—the refusal of these women to let me watch them have sex—evidence that the lesbian community has a problem with exclusion? Is this incident damning evidence of lesbian misandry? Or am I a stupid, clueless, entitled jerk?

Would your answer change if we were talking about four lesbians having sex in a hotel room? Or eight? Or sixteen? Or more?

Eric Barry, writer, comedian, and creator of the "Full Disclosure" sex podcast, has written the dumbest thing I've ever read about sex at Huffington Post—and that's saying something. (I mean, there's some absolutely mindblowing competition for that honor.) I've met Barry, he's written some great stuff in the past, and I've been a guest on his podcast. But Barry attended the International Mr. Leather Contest in Chicago over Memorial Day Weekend and wasn't happy with what he thought he saw:

[The] amount of women I encountered at the event could more or less be counted on two hands, as compared to the thousands of men I saw. But the more time that I spent at the event, the more I had to question whether or not the ratio of men to women I saw was truly representative of those within the leather community, or whether or not there was some sort of institutionalized segregation of women.

You know why the ratio of men to women at IML wasn't representative of the leather community? Because IML is a gay leather/fetish event. Complaining that gay men made up the majority of attendees at your first IML—and insisting that this is evidence of the exclusionary, misogynist rot at the heart of the leather/fetish community—is like going to the Dinah Shore Weekend in Palm Springs and complaining about how few gay men you saw there. Or going to Bear Week in Provincetown and complaining that hairless twinks must have been kept away by the forces of "institutionalized segregation."

IML is a gay leather/fetish contest and convention. All are welcome to attend. Anyone can stroll into the host hotel (although security guards give a heads up to people who 1. look like they might not be kinksters and 2. might be distressed by what they're going to see in the lobby), anyone can go shopping in the Leather Market (where else can you get dolphin-dong dildos?), or buy a ticket and attend the open-to-all IML parties at various nightclubs (they're basically circuit parties and most IML attendees skip them and party at the hotel instead, which essentially becomes the world's biggest leather bar for four days). But, yes, most IML attendees are fags. Because IML is not "one of the biggest leather and fetish events in the world," it's one of the biggest gay leather and fetish events in the world. IML got its start in a gay leather bar and it continues to be a gay contest for a gay leather title. (Although Seattle—always ahead of the curve—sent a bisexual leatherman to compete for the title nearly 20 years ago.)

Women are, however, more than welcome to attend IML. There were women working the doors at IML this year, there were women selling merchandise in the Leather Mart, there were leatherdykes hanging out in the lobby, and there were scores of (sometimes very annoying) straight women at IML tittering in corners with their gay besties from work. But women were outnumbered at IML. And you know what? Just as women are outnumbered at the annual International Mr. Leather Contest, men are outnumbered at the annual Ms. International Leather Contest. Go figure.

Terry and I go to IML every year. We go so we can see old friends, Terry can swan around looking amazing in leather, and I can personally thank people who've been guest experts in "Savage Love" and on the "Savage Lovecast" over the years and line up guest experts for future columns and shows. (Thanks to Jonathan and Skeeter from Mr. S, Tynan from Twin Cities Leather, and Stephan from Oxballs!) We have cocktail parties in our suite and while our parties are mostly gay—just like IML itself—there are always women at our parties. Because women are a part of IML and they've always been a part of our IML.

But you know when Terry and I don't have women in our room? When we're fucking. Which brings us back to Barry's piece:

I was with my female friend at the time when we were invited to one such party on the 46th floor (the top floor) in a massive suite. Upon entering we found encompassed in near complete darkness, illuminated only by the glow of the city night's lights which the room overlooked. It was also exceptionally humid—I'd estimate there were about 150 bodies crammed into the suite, doing pretty much everything your imagination will let you. But despite the relative anonymity that darkness afforded, it only took five minutes before my friend was asked to leave.

"You can't be here. You're a woman," she was told.

My friend is a naturally shy and reserved person who's recently expressed an interest in the kink and BDSM community. While IML seemed like an opportune time to explore these interests, she was nervous about doing so—intimidation, internal struggle and fear of rejection are frequent barriers when it comes to people openly exploring their own sexuality.

I stepped in, approaching the man who was kicking her out. It was unclear whether this man was the actual tenant of the suite or one of the hundred-plus strangers who had entered into the room and felt threatened by the presence of a woman.

"She's not causing any trouble. She's with me," I said.

"This is a party for men. Women aren't allowed," he retorted.

Here's a coincidence for you: the party Barry's friend was asked to leave was directly across the hall from our suite. This is a picture of Terry and a friend waiting for the elevator—which is how you spend most of your time at IML—and look! We're on Level 46, bitches, top floor, top drawer:

meanwhileonfortysix.JPG

That party on 46 (and everyone at it) was going down while we were having a fully-clothed cocktail party in our room across the hall—a cocktail party with several women in attendance—and if Barry's friend had come to our party I would've made her drink and introduced her to a few people. But I don't care how curious Barry's friend is about gay sex or BDSM or kink or leather. We wouldn't want a women in our hotel room watching us have sex. And our refusal to allow Barry's friend to stay after the party and watch us have sex isn't proof that we hate women or are "threatened" by them. Each of us gets to decide who we want in our room when we're having sex—whether we're having sex with one person or 149 people.

Which brings me to the gist/j'accuse of Barry's piece: A guy takes a female friend to a gay orgy—because a gay orgy is absolutely the best place for a "shy and reserved" woman to begin exploring her sexuality—and she was asked to leave and this, in addition to how few women Barry spotted in the Leather Market earlier that day, is proof that "misogyny [is] exemplified within the gay leather community."

Puh-leeze.

For the record: I don't go to parties like the one Barry dragged his shy and reserved friend to. They're not my scene. But a gay orgy is the last place on earth I would take someone—male or female—who was "naturally shy and reserved." And I have to call bullshit on Barry. (Whom I've met! And liked!) He says his friend is curious about leather and BDSM and that's why she wanted to attend the orgy on the 46th floor. I promise you that there was no BDSM going on in the suite across the hall from us. People don't have BDSM sex in rooms packed with 150 guys. All Barry's lady friend was going to see in that suite was a Hieronymus-Bosch-esque tableaux of guys sucking each other's cocks and jacking each other off. No one would be getting expertly flogged or elaborately mummified or doing an e-stim demo in a crowd like that. All you see at those kind of parties at IML—all you see at the orgies at IML—are vanilla types in tennis shoes having vanilla sex wearing the harnesses they bought earlier that day at the Leather Market.

My rant is now longer than the piece I'm ranting about. Just two more quick points and then I'll shut up: Barry doesn't just hold up the "men only" rule at that gay orgy as proof that the gay leather scene, as exemplified by IML, is misogynistic. It's also proof that the gay leather scene, according to Barry, is deeply transphobic as well.

Barry? I'd like you to meet Tyler McCormick, Mr. International Leather 2010. Tyler just so happens to be... a trans man:

Are there transphobes in the gay leather/fetish community? Of course there are, just as there are homophobes in the straight leather/fetish community. But the the gay leather/fetish community is less transphobic than the wider culture—wake me when a trans woman wins the Miss American pageant—just as the straight leather/fetish community is less homophobic than the wider culture.

Final point: I don't know how Barry identifies. But I've been reading him for a while and he seems to date women exclusively. So I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Barry is a straight guy. Which would make his IML piece another example of a purported LGBT ally barging into a queer space (a queer space he knows nothing about), encountering the limits of his straight privilege in that queer space ("What do you mean I can't bring a woman to this gay orgy?!?"), and then spending the rest of the night self-righteously lecturing queer people about what bad queers we are.

It tells us more about him than it does about us.

 

Comments (201) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
fletc3her 1
I have yet to see a gay male pornographic film to which the Bechdel test can even be applied, let alone expect to pass. And then you pop over to the lesbian side of the video site and it's like they never talk about men at all!
Posted by fletc3her on June 2, 2014 at 4:04 PM · Report this
2
This is nothing to do with equality. I doubt very much that lesbians at a lesbian orgy (are there such things? I'm gay, so I'm merely academically curious) would allow a straight guy to watch and/or participate, but I can't speak for them.
Posted by JJinAus on June 2, 2014 at 4:23 PM · Report this
3
Dan and Terry, "not doing the gay thing right"? That I'd like to see. Oh, crap, I'm a straight female so I can't see it. Bummer.
Posted by originalcinner on June 2, 2014 at 4:34 PM · Report this
4
I call BS on Dan and Terry not having women in the room while they're having sex. Why, I was walking past their hotel room one night while they were going at it and I distinctly heard them calling out for Anna Lingus, Ima Cumming, and Pearl Necklace.
Posted by bobbyjoe on June 2, 2014 at 4:49 PM · Report this
Ophian 5
Too bad Barry's friend listened to Barry. I wouldn't go so far as to say he was setting up a story [there's bound to be some column inches in crashing a gay orgy with a newbie chick], but I don't think he was really focused on picking a venue that would turn out positively for his friend's shy, but earnest, first toe in the water.

I hope she isn't dissuaded, and has better luck next time.

Posted by Ophian on June 2, 2014 at 4:51 PM · Report this
6
Wait, I have to have sex in front of or with women now to not be misogynistic? Can't I just, say, respect them and treat them as equals?
Posted by DJSauvage on June 2, 2014 at 4:53 PM · Report this
brandon 7
Sounds like a straight guy trying to make himself sound more cutting edge and progressive than he actually is by talking about something he knows nothing about, probably in an effort to get laid.

Straight people is so dumb sometimes.
Posted by brandon on June 2, 2014 at 5:07 PM · Report this
8
Not to mention, none of the lesbians I've talked to will let me have sex with them. And I'm a totally nice guy, too! Why are lesbians ALL such bitches?
Posted by Pope Buck I on June 2, 2014 at 5:10 PM · Report this
MacCrocodile 9
My sex partners (and observers) have been overwhelmingly male. I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to women everywhere for this obvious misogyny. I am going to have to have sex with and in front of a lot of women to make this right. I would like to also take this opportunity to preemptively apologize for my ineptitude with women to the women who help me make this right.
Posted by MacCrocodile http://maccrocodile.com/ on June 2, 2014 at 5:12 PM · Report this
Sabotage 10
I'm going to go fuck my husband on the View so I'm not a misogynist.
Posted by Sabotage on June 2, 2014 at 5:39 PM · Report this
11
Barry should have taken the newbie lady over to Shibaricon, the HUGE STRAIGHT BDSM (rope, specifically) convention that was also in Chicago that exact same weekend.
Posted by devianttouch on June 2, 2014 at 6:02 PM · Report this
12
Mr O - So you'd rather think him a cretin than a fiend?

The operative phrase seems to be "when we were invited". Who invited "them" and what was that person's connection to the all-male orgy? Was he alone when he was invited, whether or not the invitation was expanded to include his friend? Was his friend present and clearly presenting as female when the invitation was extended? My guess would be that at best there was a misunderstanding and he didn't realize that the person who invited him and said to bring his friend along thought his friend with a non-gendered name to be male.

The piece itself sounds like a cross between classic straightsplaining and post-gay Utopianism in which we just can't have segregated things any more.
Posted by vennominon on June 2, 2014 at 6:02 PM · Report this
13
Oh, and I forgot my young friend, just coming out, who's been getting grief from women about discriminating against them. I think that may deserve a Ricci Award.
Posted by vennominon on June 2, 2014 at 6:05 PM · Report this
ragu 14
So a bunch of privileged white dudes want to keep their "penises only" boys club going in a semi-public space, a woman is insulted and excluded in a very misogynistic way, which prompts some other white guy writes a whiny but basically innocuous blog piece about it, and that's the battle that digs deep into Dan's soul and makes him pick up his cudgel to defend his male privilege with a big pouty face? Oooookay.
Posted by ragu on June 2, 2014 at 6:06 PM · Report this
15
Oh, Ragu. Someone unjustly accuses all the gay men at IML of sexism, misogyny, and transphobia and I took that seriously - because I take sexism, misogyny and transphobia seriously. Worthy of addressing even. You don't take those issues seriously, it seems, otherwise you wouldn't object to my addressing the writer's point/charges/head-up-assedness.

Have a nice day.
Posted by Dan Savage on June 2, 2014 at 6:15 PM · Report this
16
Oh, and IML is a "bunch of privileged white dudes," says Ragu.

Ragu? Meet Ramien Pierre, Mr. International Leather 2014:

http://chicago.gopride.com/news/article.…

The glare of his white privilege is nearly blinding, isn't it?
Posted by Dan Savage on June 2, 2014 at 6:33 PM · Report this
17
Sometimes I wish I was gay... a 150 person orgy sounds like fun, and I'll bet it was pretty easy to set up. I can't imagine finding 75 straight women that would meet up with 75 straight dudes for that kind of fun.
Posted by Or at least a little bi... on June 2, 2014 at 6:39 PM · Report this
18
Ragu,

How the fuck is a private suite a semi-public space? How is it misogynistic to politely explain to a woman that she has happened upon a male-only sex party to which she was clearly not invited? Private sex parties, even ones with lots of people, are not semi-public.
Posted by mshawn on June 2, 2014 at 6:41 PM · Report this
19
Um, isn't Ragu a satirical spoof of Raku? Kudos.
Posted by Genius on June 2, 2014 at 6:46 PM · Report this
Sandiai 20
lol, good job, "Ragu."
Posted by Sandiai on June 2, 2014 at 6:55 PM · Report this
21
Worth pointing out here that this guy is also not helping the feminist cause either by calling out something as misogynist that is clearly nothing of the sort. Thanks, fella, for making it even HARDER to get taken seriously when there actually IS misogyny going on. Ten bucks says his article is already the toast of dozens of MRA forums illustrating some bullshit point about bitches be crazy. Ugh.
Posted by Zoe A on June 2, 2014 at 6:59 PM · Report this
22
Ah! Ragu! Raku! I felz for it!

Ha ha! I'm a dolt. xxxooo
Posted by Dan Savage on June 2, 2014 at 7:01 PM · Report this
23
So has Dan not figured out that ragu is a parody of raku yet? Or is he proceeding as if it's real just to stay on the right side of Poe's Law?
Posted by chi_type on June 2, 2014 at 7:07 PM · Report this
24
Haha. Questioned answered. It is really tough to tell sometimes...
Posted by chi_type on June 2, 2014 at 7:09 PM · Report this
25
I agree that this guys is an idiot and the shy friend he dragged up there was probably relieved to get the fuck out but...
" Each of us gets to decide who we want in our room when we're having sex—whether we're having sex with one person or 149 people. "
Isn't it kinda the nature of an orgy that you DON'T get that much say in who joins in? If there's someone who is a total turn-off to you do you get to vote him out? And did they poll the crowd for bisexuals who might've been into a woman joining in?
I'm mostly joking but I have no idea of orgy etiquette so it's a somewhat genuine question.
Posted by chi_type on June 2, 2014 at 7:15 PM · Report this
26
Can gay guys even really be misogynistic? I always kind of thought of misogyny as the particular resentment straight guys feel toward women based on women's ability to withhold sex from them. Most of the women haters here on Slog, you know who you are, seem to be motivated by that.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on June 2, 2014 at 7:15 PM · Report this
27
When I went to college the frats were exclusively for men, how misogynistic... Also in our own backyard O'dea High School has banned women, truly, sexism is alive and well...
Posted by Everyoneissosexist on June 2, 2014 at 7:26 PM · Report this
Cat in fez 28
@49 Misogyny takes many forms -- all the word means is hate of women. I've met a very misogynistic gay guy (I hope he grew out of it, he was young) and he was glacially cold in his detestation of women. If he could have pressed a button and had us all keel over dead, I kinda think he would have. Because he had no use for us at all.

I'd guess there are probably a few gay misogynists who are just trying to get Manly Points by slagging off women (just like there are probably some girls who hang out with straight bros who like to score One of the Boys points with homophobic jokes), but I haven't met any.

I don't think the guy who wrote the Huffpo article has met either type, at least not in the course of researching this piece. What an asswipe.
Posted by Cat in fez on June 2, 2014 at 7:28 PM · Report this
Ophian 29
Mr. ven @12, I suppose that there may have been some honest misunderstanding about what was going on, and who was invited or not, but--for anyone of any reflection--that should have prompted an article about his oops [in whatever contextualization he might choose] rather than about IML's institutional misogyny. So, a cretin, a fiend or a doofus, take your pick I suppose.
Posted by Ophian on June 2, 2014 at 7:50 PM · Report this
30
As someone who attends BearPride and IML almost every Memorial Day, I agree with everything Dan has said here.

Although IML welcomes voyeurs to enjoy the multitude of exhibitionists, IML is not a gay zoo for straight men or women to visit for their misguided amusement, especially when expressed through alternating giggles and gasps like silly, rude and ignorant adolescents and religious prudes.

Second, if you come to a play party, you came to play, whatever role you choose. Play parties really aren't for casual observers.

If you want to watch without being involved, the IML sells some of the best BDSM and leather porn found anywhere for you to watch in the safe and completely uninvolved space of your own hotel room.

If you want to observe BDSM demonstrations, several sessions are held by vendors in the IML market; they welcome you to observe, to learn and, if you're lucky, to participate.

If you want to experience a fetish community for the first time, seek out a friend or sponsor who is a member of the community to help introduce, interpret and acclimate you. If you don't know anyone who will serve as your "buddy" at IML, perhaps, you shouldn't attend until you better understand the community. Perhaps, you need to start by making that friend or group of friends back home or online before you make the jump into the deep end by attending IML or a play party.
Posted by Leather Bear on June 2, 2014 at 7:52 PM · Report this
31
Wait, so women can't be gay now? Did we just genderize "gay" so that it's only men?

I mean, not like that isn't how the world acts already, though. Lesbians are about as invisible as straight women, so big surprise if Dan the Gay Man is going to go stomp all over gay women the way straight men do to, you know, everyone else.
Posted by InvisibleGayWoman on June 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM · Report this
32
Dan, is it possible that like a typical, scared little straight puppy in any situation where gay men are the majority that Barry wanted to go to the play party but brought his female friend as his "safety word" for a quick exit just in case he couldn't handle the reality of the situation?

Poor girl.
Posted by The trouble with being Barry's Beard on June 2, 2014 at 8:02 PM · Report this
sirkowski 33
If it wasn't for the login, this was straight up genuine Raku.
Posted by sirkowski http://www.missdynamite.com on June 2, 2014 at 8:06 PM · Report this
34
@31: Wow, you're an idiot. Women "genderized" gay in the 1970s when they insisted that gay = male and insisted on "gay and lesbian community" in place of "gay community."

Read some history, then blog indignantly. Not the other way around.
Posted by Dan Savage on June 2, 2014 at 8:08 PM · Report this
35
@33: Are Ragu and Raku... the same person?
Posted by Dan Savage on June 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM · Report this
36
Mr O - "Why have you to fight when I could have the cretin or the fiend?" is a line from The Lion in Winter. They don't run to a doofus, alas.

I was just coming up with the best case I could deem plausible for the writer. He does manifest fairly classic post-gay thinking typical of the straight man who kinda sorta thinks the world would be a better place if nobody were an exclusive same-sexer, and so that's what his grasp of post-gay leads him to project, that there is no more icky exclusive homosexuality and no segregated-by-orientation spaces.
Posted by vennominon on June 2, 2014 at 8:11 PM · Report this
37
This whole kerfuffle has been an education for me. I never heard of IML or Dinah Shore weekend before this post. After reading Dan Savage for 5 years, I'm still learning.
Posted by Pablo Picasso on June 2, 2014 at 8:17 PM · Report this
38
More photos of Terry at IML, pleeeeease.
Posted by Leather Bear on June 2, 2014 at 8:40 PM · Report this
debug 39
@34 Thanks for the verification that gay = homosexual man. Seems I can't use the word gay lately in an online conversation without some putz chiming in that gay means homosexual women as well and I should be more clear, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Only thing worse that a word nazi is a stupid word nazi.
Posted by debug on June 2, 2014 at 8:57 PM · Report this
40
Everything in your write is awesome and I completely agree except for the part that you write "All you see at those kind of parties at IML—all you see at the orgies at IML—are vanilla types in tennis shoes having vanilla sex wearing the harnesses they bought earlier that day at the Leather Market."
After already stating you do not attend these orgies I am not surprised you said that.
The play parties I attend are amazing hard core fun and intense..
Posted by David-sf on June 2, 2014 at 9:09 PM · Report this
41
I've gone to IML every year since 2002 and I have YET to be invited to a men-only orgy.

HELP HELP, I'M BEING OPPRESSED!

Shit, I spend more time hanging out in the smoking area out front catching up with friends I only get to see once a year... or hanging out with the bootblacks because bootblacks are awesome.
Posted by Izzy_Bootblack on June 2, 2014 at 9:15 PM · Report this
42
Ugh.. THANK you... Barry's bratty entitlement as a straight guy is abhorrent. Thinking he and his girlfriend can just waltz into any private sex party to watch - like they're at the science fair - and when asked to leave, fly into the faux rage of "WHAT ABOUT GENDER QUEER PEOPLE?!?!" makes me wish the gay movement was still underground.

And he has the fucking gaul to call himself a "sex-positive, GBLT ally."

Sorry... Barry... you're not an ally. You like your gays like you like the fish in a tank. They're pretty to watch and funny to laugh at. But no... you are not an ally if you come to one of our events with the OBVIOUS intention of calling us "woman haters" because we wouldn't let your girlfriend watch us fuck.
Posted by ScudGobang on June 2, 2014 at 9:25 PM · Report this
long-time reader 43
Well, I learned something today.

Hadn't known that Dinah Shore is a lesbian icon. Actually, I hadn't really known who she was at all. I am a friend of a friend of Dorothy, though.
Posted by long-time reader on June 2, 2014 at 10:11 PM · Report this
mikethehammer 44
@35,

Ragu & Raku aren't the same person. Most of Ragu's work is easily recognized as a satirical parody of Raku. It's actually worth checking out Ragu's profile and reading through their comments. It's really well done and pretty freaking funny.
Posted by mikethehammer on June 2, 2014 at 10:11 PM · Report this
mikethehammer 45
Not even the first time Dan got trolled by ragu. I thought this one was kinda funny, as Dan's post/headline was just a Hitler laden Godwin exploit that seemingly obviously shouldn't be taken seriously. But such is raku's reputation that she still riled some feathers.

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
Posted by mikethehammer on June 2, 2014 at 10:26 PM · Report this
46
Okay, I get that some straight women fantasize about gay sex in much the same manner as some straight men obsess about lesbians.

But, seriously, ladies, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and the men's play party door seems more than reasonable.

Frankly, it's just too creepy and weird for you to be there or to want to be there.

We love you, but we have to have some boundaries that are respected.

Gay men are way more tolerant of straight women in their spaces or at their events than lesbians ever would be of straight men (men, period) at their spaces and events.

Lesbians wouldn't let a straight man near the covered dish club meeting, much less their BDSM event.

Hell, even with all of my lesbian family and friends, I've never even heard of an annual lesbian event with group play parties (orgies). Is there such a thing? No, stop, don't tell me; I don't want or need to know that about my lesbian sisters.
Posted by There are no "ladies" leaving a gay play party on June 2, 2014 at 10:42 PM · Report this
47
Warning: Rant Ahead.

Why can’t there be just one place where GAY men can go to be away from women? Why do women have to insert themselves into every corner where GAY men go? NEWSFLASH: Ladies, gay men are GAAAAYYY. They don’t want your tities or vaginias. Got it? They don’t WAAAAAAAAANNNNNTTTT YOU!

Last weekend at Bearracuda (the Seattle Eagle event where larger “bear” type men strip down to their underwear to enjoy each other’s company) I counted at least FOUR (4) fucking women. Who the hell is so goddam stupid that they drag in their gal-pals to ruin an event like Bearracuda? Yes it is illegal to bar women from the premises. They DOES NOT mean you girlies were welcome there. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing KILLS the GAY erotic energy in a room faster than a fag-hag screeching at the top of her lungs for attention. And yet, there she was, with her piercing cackle and everything was so GODDAM FUCKING FUNNY!

I loathe women in the Eagle. It’s a gay bar - do you get that? There isn’t another Eagle for 1000 fucking miles and you idiots have to drag your snatch to the Eagle to scream her head off and be the loudest bitch in the room. There are literally thousands of bars in Seattle that cater to women, but that’s not enough. No - you have to go to the Eagle, too. {insert C-word here}

I would not dream of going to a Lesbian bar. Ever. Not because I don’t think I would be let in, because I don’t want to be the asshole who so ignorantly fouls an all-lesbian space with my male energy. To this day I have never been to the Wild Rose or any other lesbian space because I’M NOT A LESBIAN! But that sort of consideration is WAY beyond you ladies (you don’t give a fuck, do you?).

Go to the Cuff (you ruined it a long time ago). Go to Pony - with their gay porn on the walls and the nearly naked bio-hazard tattoo boy dancing on the bar if you have to (after all, what better place to find early twenty-something girls with ponytails more than Pony?). Even go to Diesel if you absolutely, positively have to brush your filthy pillows against a bunch of bears, but stay out of the fucking Eagle!
More...
Posted by montex on June 2, 2014 at 10:50 PM · Report this
48
Does IML still need press this point? Why are they still giving out press passes to gawkers?
Posted by Duchess of Milton on June 2, 2014 at 11:12 PM · Report this
collectivism_sucks 49
@47
I totally agree. I'm not into a lot of the gay bar scene but even I've seen that there is nowhere where a guy can go and just be with the guys. Maybe there should be a members only club or something to bar women. Nothing against women, but if they can have lesbian clubs galore, why can't we have just one club of our own?
Posted by collectivism_sucks on June 2, 2014 at 11:17 PM · Report this
collectivism_sucks 50
@47
Actually, there was this one gay bar in NYC that NEVER had women in it...it was a gay sports bar. No shows, no loud music, just us regular guys who like sports and are also gay/bi. Gay and a sports bar...what incentive do women have to go there?

Why couldn't there be a gay sports bar in Seattle? Add that to the list of why this city sucks.
Posted by collectivism_sucks on June 2, 2014 at 11:20 PM · Report this
collectivism_sucks 51
Dan is full of it! Women are invited to gay orgies all the time...ever see any of the "Bi-Maxx" videos? *wink*

But in all honesty, this is indeed the dumbest thing I've read in awhile. Why can't women get that sometimes gay men want to be gay men and the "fag hags" or "fruit flies" or whatever you want to call them aren't always welcome?

I can't stand the way some of these women are towards us...like we're cute fucking puppies or something who exist just so they have someone "fun" to hangout with.
Posted by collectivism_sucks on June 2, 2014 at 11:24 PM · Report this
52
Well, we didn't hear from the woman who got dragged to that party by the guy who wrote the article, but I would bet that if anyone asked her, she was probably feeling REALLY uncomfortable and was probably GLAD that they got "kicked" out.

I've been to my fair share of play parties (women only and mixed) and I know that *I* would feel uncomfortable at a men's play party even if I had been invited (which I can't imagine why I would be invited...)

Barry, it wasn't a wine and cheese party, it was an orgy. Did *YOU* really even want to be there? Or did you really just show up to prove a point?
Posted by Izzy_Bootblack on June 2, 2014 at 11:34 PM · Report this
53
@49, 50 & 51

I think a lot of women just have difficulty believing that every man, regardless of sexual orientation, does not desire her 100% presence in all things, all the time. It really doesn't matter how many times I use all-caps to clarify how serious I am, there will always be women who aggressively want to ruin the mood gay men have for each other as a way to punish them for being gay.

We still have two gay bath houses we can go to and be away from the feminist hordes, although we must risk STD's in order to enjoy that privilege (which is exactly what women want us to have to deal with). Yea yeah, that masoginsitic (intentionally misspelled). Whatever.
Posted by montex on June 2, 2014 at 11:35 PM · Report this
54
@Collectivism_sucks, that's a lot of anger your carrying around. Ya' might want to put it down at some point.
Posted by Machiavelli was framed on June 2, 2014 at 11:41 PM · Report this
55
Utopian dreams and repressed anger don't really work out well. Just saying.
Posted by Machiavelli was framed on June 2, 2014 at 11:42 PM · Report this
56
As I walked around the vender mart and the drive(smoking area). I saw women actively participating in the activities of IML. A Mistress even flogged her sub in the hotel lobby. This guy took a female to a private all me event in a private room. This was not an official IML event and not a pan sexual event. I have no problem playing in a pan sexual space and see were these events can bring the leather community together. However I also have noticed that the gay male leather scene is slowly disappearing from our local areas. Having a woman at all male play party just to watch can be uncomfortable for some and hot for others. If she was there because she identified as male and not to just gauwk that would have been a different matter. Yes IML is predomnantly male but women are not excluded from the official events in fact I was surprised to see as many women there as I did.
Posted by Bearmanii Daddy Tim on June 3, 2014 at 12:41 AM · Report this
57
Not ALL straight men!
Posted by madcap on June 3, 2014 at 1:10 AM · Report this
58
@53, Feminist Hordes.. That sounds scary. And they force you boys into STD infected bathhouses? Rude rude..
And Dan, seeing you're
In voice here today, giving @31 an earful( calling her an idiot? Cause she's not up to date with 70s Feminism?), perhaps you could jump in here.. @53.. Point out his delusional mind/ as if ALL women
Desire 100% attention.
Also, women who have sex with women still do call themselves gay/ guess they missed the directive coming thru the pipeline from those earlier Feminist Hordes..
Posted by LavaGirl on June 3, 2014 at 1:41 AM · Report this
59
Guys you don't have to fuck in front of to make me feel in included, just make me a Margarita and we're good.
Posted by msanonymous on June 3, 2014 at 1:57 AM · Report this
60
I am a lesbian who has been to IML and I think it is ridiculous for a female to expect entry into private sex parties there--or anywhere. I stuck to public spaces and supported vendors by spending money, and worked against the (sadly accurate) stereotype of lesbians being rotten tippers by treating bartenders and other service workers appropriately.
Posted by InwoodMary on June 3, 2014 at 2:25 AM · Report this
61
And one more rant before I go to bed. Don't call gay guys misogynists. That is demonstrably false. Gay men love women, their icons are almost exclusively women, they often have more women friends than men. HOWEVER. That doesn't mean we want them or encourage them to watch us fuck.

There is some anti-male bullshit going on here. Some weird lefty feminist agenda that hates all men.
Posted by JJinAus on June 3, 2014 at 3:05 AM · Report this
62
@61 .. So these weird lefty feminists who hate all men, they come in hordes too?
Posted by LavaGirl on June 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM · Report this
63
Again @61, calling some women fag- hags, sure sounds like some of you gay guys don't like some women/ and again Dan- you make no comment about these comments??
Posted by LavaGirl on June 3, 2014 at 3:33 AM · Report this
64
@53, if you're going to bathhouses to get away from "feminist hordes," you're probably doing in wrong.
Posted by Duchess of Milton on June 3, 2014 at 3:45 AM · Report this
65
Sorry Dan/ just realized it may be middle of the nite over there.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 3, 2014 at 4:00 AM · Report this
66
Ragu continues to make the world a better place by proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that racism, sexism, and homophobia are thriving among the very worst people on the far left.
Posted by Functional Atheist on June 3, 2014 at 4:36 AM · Report this
67
@47 and 49. I have never been bothered by the presence of a woman in a gay bar. Not once. Ever.
Posted by Clayton on June 3, 2014 at 5:36 AM · Report this
68
Ms Lave - It doesn't often happen that Mr Savage comments in these threads. Multiple comments from him in one thread are quite rare.

The FH term was generally not negative at one point in time, although it seems to have become so recently. It could be a reflection of how old-fashioned someone is, although, of course, where you are things might be different.

As for Mr JJ's point, speaking as a gay man with a narrow majority of friends in the F column and assorted female role models, of course gay male misogyny exists. It's a major reason why I couldn't seriously go full-on separatist. (Maybe I could in a matriarchy, in which the counterpart would have the systemic backing it lacks here.)
Posted by vennominon on June 3, 2014 at 5:40 AM · Report this
69
*International Ms Leather
Posted by Hobbit on June 3, 2014 at 5:47 AM · Report this
70
If any straight man went to Michfest I guaran-damn-tee you you'd be barred at the gate. Why do women feel they need to be part of everything? I'd have thrown that woman out of the orgy too. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE PART OF THAT. And you'll never come up with a reason valid enough.
Posted by Vida Boeheme on June 3, 2014 at 6:52 AM · Report this
71
If any straight man or gay man went to Michfest I guaran-damn-tee you you'd be barred at the gate. Why do women feel they need to be part of everything? I'd have thrown that woman out of the orgy too. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE PART OF THAT. And you'll never come up with a reason valid enough.
Posted by Vida Boeheme on June 3, 2014 at 6:55 AM · Report this
72
My apologies for the double post.
Posted by Vida Boeheme on June 3, 2014 at 6:57 AM · Report this
73
@LavaGirl: I think the point Dan was trying to make is that the term "gay" is (unfortunately) ambiguous. It can refer either to both gay men and women, or to only gay men (which, as he says, was because lesbians in the 70s didn't want to have to be lumped in with gay men). Therefore, he is not ignoring or attacking lesbians if he uses the word "gay" to refer to men, despite the ambiguity of the term.

I think Dan has made it very clear over the years that he's an important leader for the whole GLBT community. Let's not get so caught up on semantics that we forget that and end up attacking someone who is doing all he can for the rights of the whole community.
Posted by TenrSinger on June 3, 2014 at 7:15 AM · Report this
74
I have been to iml several times and have been told and from what I have seen it is not a gay event it is a leather fetishevent. I have seen misstresses and their subjects. I have seen master with their female subjects. I have seen male with male as well.
However, if you are invited to a private party in someone's suite and then you get their and are told no women it is the up to the person who rented the suite.

This article is the stupist thing I have in a veryb long time.

The only reason you may have thought iml was a gay event os that so many of us go to iml. But it is a leather for everyone.
Posted by fetishedbear on June 3, 2014 at 7:17 AM · Report this
75
I haven't been to IML... yet... but this story resonates with me. I'm from Toronto and usually haunt the Eagle on Church during Pride and over the last few years there has been what I can only call female millennial tourists that are taking up more and more space year after year as if it was some sort of stamp that they needed for a Pride passport. I am not against women going to the Eagle but I am against, as Dan described, 'tittering' women there so that they can tell their office pals on Monday about the 'crazy gay leather bar' they went to. Last year there was a couple young women who looked like exchange students dressed in conservative J Crew snapping selfies with patrons, some of whom told them to f-off. In the same way that lesbians ask for women-only spaces (and us gay men honor their wishes) can there be some spaces that are men only? This is not misogynist. I've seen leather dykes and daring straight women at the Eagle and in similar 'hard core' venues and they are welcome but when we start to get invaded by people (men or women) who are there for what appears to be 'water-cooler bragging rights', let's just say the spirit of the place dies a little. There are Women's Only gyms in Toronto that are part of my gym club chain and I am not permitted to work out there lest my male sweat laced with testosterone offend the finer sensibilities of women. I suspect, however, if I opened a Men Only gym there would be a line up of offended people like this author to stand up for 'equality' and to make sure that my desire to sometimes only be in the company of men should be removed. Le sigh.
Posted by Steve McApe on June 3, 2014 at 7:19 AM · Report this
76
Thank you. That is all.
Posted by MrEasy on June 3, 2014 at 7:19 AM · Report this
Cato the Younger Younger 77
What I am hearing is Seattle is in desperate need of a men's only gay bar. But I've got news for you: the days of the men's only gay bars died with the gentrification of the gay ghetto and our attainment of civil rights.And frankly it's a small price to pay for equality.

That being said: no gay guy wants a vagina anywhere near where they are fucking or trying to hook up with someone to fuck. I'm glad that women who try to are made to feel uncomfortable because they should be.
Posted by Cato the Younger Younger on June 3, 2014 at 7:30 AM · Report this
78
@67, thank you for that. As a woman who used to frequently go to gay bars, I will give you the four reasons why women like to go.

1.) There are women like me who are into crossdressers, and that was the one place I could go to meet them. Bisexual crossdressers will go to gay bars if they have crossdresser nights, like the gay bar I went to did.

2.) Going to a gay bar is a blessed relief because it is the one bar where men are not constantly hitting on you. Although even there, one time a straight guy who had come to meet a friend tried to pick me up. Sometimes a woman just wants a drink in peace.

3.) Women have gay friends, and it would be unfair if they always went to straight bars to drink. I want to reassure montex that we don't want to have sex with you. Bars are a place to be social, they aren't just a place to find hookups.

4.) Yes, there is the curiosity factor, but that's a damn good thing. I remember as a young college student thinking the Ramrod here in Boston was a place of disturbing mystery--gay men were The Other and more than a bit scary. 25 years later I became a weekly regular. And it's straights like me, who saw gay men, even gay men in a group, as ordinary who helped get LGBT rights expanded.

I want to make it clear that I totally agree with Dan. There are places that women are welcome and places they are not. Gay orgies are no place for a woman, but I would hope that gay bars are, or at the very least if the gay bar is in actuality a place for orgy, that they at least have a front room with a bar where men can come up for air, where women can have a drink.
Posted by Marrena on June 3, 2014 at 7:35 AM · Report this
79
The women 'tittering' comment got me. I'm from Toronto and frequent the Eagle here. The last few Prides there have been an increasing number of what appears to be 'tourist' millenial-aged women that show up at the Eagle and start snapping selfies to presumably post and show their friends how 'hard core' they are. I have no issue with women at the Eagle but what I can't abide is what appears to be women there simply to have bragging rights with their peers as if the Eagle was a stamp that they needed to get on their Pride passport. Gay men respect lesbians when they request that some spaces be 'women only.' Is it too much to ask that we gay men can't simply have some 'men only' spaces? This author seems to think it is misogynist for same sex identified people (men) to not have the opposite sex present for a gay orgy. I would ask him to start his equality campaign at the chain of Women's Only gyms in my city - they are part of my gym chain (Goodlife) but some of their clubs are women only. I suspect if I opened a Men's Only gym (there are none that I know of) that he would be among the people lecturing against its very existence. If this author is straight then, as Dan pointed out, he is merely running into the limits of straight priviledge and his argument is that of a weak sophomore university student. So nice of him to be a tour guide for women at gay men only spaces. How thoughtful of him. Le sigh.
Posted by Steve McApe on June 3, 2014 at 7:39 AM · Report this
80
Whoops - I didn't think that my first comment posted - it apparently did - ah well, now there is two versions of the same sentiment lol
Posted by Steve McApe on June 3, 2014 at 7:45 AM · Report this
81
Great commentary, Mr. Savage, and I agree with your perspective wholeheartedly! Thanks.

Now, the following comment has nothing to do with the point of your editorial, but just for the record I would like to point out, that IML technically is NOT "a gay leather/fetish contest and convention." At least, not by IML's contestant criteria. It IS a men's leather contest, to be sure, and both the contest and weekend is most definitely vastly populated by gay men. But it is not a gay contest. Straight men, bi men, trans men, gay men -- all may compete and the contest has always been open to such (that being said, trans men might be a newer admission... I'm not sure about that).

If you want to cite a strictly gay contest, I'll point you to American Brotherhood Weekend (ABW) and the titles of American Leatherman and American Leatherwoman. www.americanbrotherhood.com In order to compete for those titles, you must identify and operate as gay/homosexual/lesbian. And be biologically male (American Leatherman) or female (American Leatherwoman). Contestants for the American Leatherboy title, which rounds out the American Leather Family, can be any gender, but must identify as a boy. That event happens in October.
Posted by dcoral on June 3, 2014 at 7:54 AM · Report this
82
After re-reading both my posts and everyone else's I need to modify my post; I do have a problem with women at the Eagle. I am not opposed to women ever going to the Eagle but there are times that I just want to have a men's only space. If I want to go into the back room and grab someone's cock I don't want to be thinking "hmmm, I wonder if that woman on the other side of the pass-thru is going to walk back here?"
Sexuality is a very personal thing and women need to respect that gay men do not want them around when the cocks come out.
I love women and have many female friends but being able to go to a place like the Eagle and have it just be guys is not any different for the same reason that straight guys don't ask women along on their 'boys weekend camping trip'. Guy energy needs to flow sometimes and it absolutely changes the atmosphere when that female energy is around.
I would ask this of Barry, the author; What is a straight guy doing there? If you do not identify as gay then get the f*** out of a gay orgy and take your tour group with you, please. I suspect that whomever asked Barry to drop in on the 46th floor did not invite the female companion and also presumed that Barry was gay (he was, after all, a man at a gay man's event).
This message is as important for straight men as it is for women to understand: Unless you are going to 'go gay' and whip out your cock, or you're gonna suck some, go away, we don't want you as a spectator. It's not a zoo, it's an invite only gay orgy. Apparently an invite was extended to you in error.
Posted by Steve McApe on June 3, 2014 at 8:26 AM · Report this
83
Dan,

What great commentary on the article that pissed a lot of us off! I'm female, a long time member of the "Leather Community", a former international title holder, and yes, I was at IML with my hot (female) fiance. And guess what-- I was hugged, kissed, and welcomed by hundreds of gay leathermen. While, it is true that there aren't a lot of females present at IML, it has never been a "hostile" environment for me-- mostly because I don't try to go where it would be stupid to visit. A bit of a correction-- it's International Ms leather (IMsL), but otherwise your response was spot on.

Pony
International Ms Bootblack 2009
Posted by PonyImsBB2009 on June 3, 2014 at 8:29 AM · Report this
84
I'm one of the Leatherwomen who attends (and volunteers!) at IML. I am also a Chicagoan. I publicly invited Mr. Barry to join me on a trip to the Leather archives so he could be educated on leather culture and history at the, but he was too busy to go with me before he wrote his fauxpology that just HAD to be published today.

He had an article he wanted to write when he walked in the door. He wanted to write it on the backs of women and gender nonconforming people and he thought he would get away with it in Chicago. He learned otherwise.

Thank you, Dan, for using your voice to clarify the truth of the matter. And for the record, I'm a skirt-wearing Leatherwoman who never has trouble finding a party that I am welcome at during IML - of course, I'm also not trying to attend the men-only orgies because, you know, I'm not a man.
Posted by Belladona Logan on June 3, 2014 at 10:14 AM · Report this
85
@60 Jesus christ, that's a lesbian stereotype? I need to update my spreadsheet.

Posted by LRH21 on June 3, 2014 at 10:19 AM · Report this
86
@78 says
2.) "Going to a gay bar is a blessed relief because it is the one bar where men are not constantly hitting on you. Although even there, one time a straight guy who had come to meet a friend tried to pick me up. Sometimes a woman just wants a drink in peace."

Yes I am sure it is really tough to have men approach you, a single woman sitting in a bar, and seeking out your company.

But don't you also see the humor: A straight woman dresses so straight men are aware of her tits, her ass etc and then complains about it. Or even just sits there looking demure and proper but she is female. But she gets "hit" on because the guy responds and says "hello." That's cause for complaint. Funny in a weird way. And I don't believe it.

(Obviously if a guy is being obnoxious and unpleasant and not taking no for an answer, that is a different matter. But that is not what you said. You said I am just so tired of men approaching me. Bullshit.)

Sometimes I wish I were gay so I wouldn't have to bother with crazy women.

Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 10:33 AM · Report this
87
While I am in no way supportive of women attending a men's orgy, I find some of the comments here disturbing. It seems like some of the commentors are taking this as an opportunity to talk shit about women in general. I notice that these commentors who are generalizing this woman's experience to all women are forgetting that she was guided there by a man. where is the vitriol for him? Why isn't he being held up as an example of straight people transgressing?

This woman was taken somewhere that her inexperience would not have prepared her for. i think Dan is quite right in laying the blame at the feet of the experienced dood who took her there. *HE* should have known better.

As for women in gay male spaces, remember that not every where has a strong lesbian community. In my city, there's *a* lesbian bar, and it's often populated by straight men. So, I and other queer women will go to the gay men's bars. Is it so wrong that we want to be surrounded by other members of our community?
Posted by DarthKelly on June 3, 2014 at 11:55 AM · Report this
88
@86 oh FFS, I've had enough with the meta already at dKos. Single women being constantly hit on at a straight bar isn't a bad thing. It's a good thing! From my point of view it's a chivalrous thing, especially in my case--I'm old, fat and letting my hair go gray.

But sometimes...I just want to have a drink at a bar by myself, undisturbed. A gay bar is a nice relief because those social expectations are missing. I can have a drink the way a man might at a straight bar.

It's too bad that social expectations aren't switched around the other way, where women are expected to do the asking and men are expected to wait quietly and look pretty. I think men as a gender would have an easier time of it being sex objects, being pursued, etc. My two gender cents.
Posted by Marrena on June 3, 2014 at 12:01 PM · Report this
89
@88

Why have a drink to be alone in a public place? Puzzles me (and somewhat different question of course.) Why not have a drink at home? (Assuming you live alone.) And then why sit at the bar per se (rather than at a table where one is more isolated)?

I, too, like to get out and have a drink in a public place - but it is for the express purpose of meeting some old fat gray-haired woman (though it _never_ happens.)
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 12:15 PM · Report this
90
@56

Hey, Tim.

How's OKC?
Posted by Tramps Like Us on June 3, 2014 at 12:19 PM · Report this
91
I had a fruit fly friend once who would get soooo angry when only males would get invited to an after party, calling the host(s) "faggots." I tried to explain to her why she's not invited . . . .eventually I no longer could tolerate her as a friend even if I'd known her from kindergarden, as she needs to accept gay men were not created for her entertainment. We are not a fashionable hand bag Carrie Bradshaw.
Posted by kufratboi on June 3, 2014 at 12:35 PM · Report this
92
@91

If the genders in this story were reversed, no one would even have to think twice about why a man was not allowed into the lesbians-only play party.

Barry and his girl friend deserved to get the boot. Regardless of their feelings of entitlement, they did not have the right or any good reason to be at a private, play party that was explicitly for men only.

Wrong assholes.
Wrong place.
Wrong time.

Barry can sell his butt-hurt indignation somewhere else.
Posted by Nothing for YOU to see here...Move along on June 3, 2014 at 12:58 PM · Report this
93
@89 I'm not even sure how to answer that, seems almost part of the Turing Test to understand why a person would want to be able to occasionally have a drink at a bar alone in a big city. Also, being at a table in a bar only slightly decreases the being hit on effect.

I'm going to say the words "male privilege", even though they have been overused the last week.
Posted by Marrena on June 3, 2014 at 1:09 PM · Report this
Max Solomon 94
this thread is comedy gold.

1. ragu is NOT SERIOUS. ragu is HILARIOUS.
2. raku, you will notice, has stayed the fuck out of this conversation. even though, as a vegan, she could correctly point out that leather is murder.
3. the idea that gay men can't be misogynists is laughable, as I have directly heard gay men say things, and do things, to straight women that would get straight men deservedly slapped or kicked in the nuts. if you think drag doesn't have an undercurrent of misogyny to it, you're delusional.
Posted by Max Solomon on June 3, 2014 at 1:19 PM · Report this
95
What does male privilege got to do with _your_ own personal experience of why you like to "have a drink at a bar alone"? For any sex?

The drink part I get. Being in a bar I get. The alone part I don't. But "occasionally " may be so seldom that it becomes insignificant to discuss.

So now I have a different question (if you care to answer):

1. Why do you think my question has anything to do with male privilege?
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 1:26 PM · Report this
96
Sorry. My answer @95 is for question @93
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 1:28 PM · Report this
97
@96 I invoked male privilege because you seemed to have a hard time understanding why a person might want to have a drink alone at a bar. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that your difficulty in understanding it comes from always being able to do that at any time without any complications.
Posted by Marrena on June 3, 2014 at 1:39 PM · Report this
98
@97
So you'd want to have a drink alone at a bar just to have the pleasure of _being able_ to be alone at a bar? The "alone at the bar" is not as important as the "being able" part?
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 1:46 PM · Report this
99
@99 No. I actively enjoy walking around a big city by myself. I find it exhilarating. As a mom, I don't have a lot of solitude, so I enjoy my time alone. Sometimes when I'm alone I stay at home and do indulgent things like long baths and reading books, but I also like wandering around someplace where there are lots of people around me, but where I can still be alone. I will often go to movies alone. There I don't get hit on because it's harder to tell I'm by myself. And I like being able to go to a restaurant alone. There I can drink too without getting hit on, but sometimes I'm just in the mood for a drink by itself.

This is a perfectly normal human impulse, stop trying to make it seem like some kind of freakish behavior. Dan posts things all the time which seem to indicate he's hanging out in a bar alone, or wandering around a big city alone. It's fun.

Of course I like going out and doing things with friends too, or my boyfriend. I like both.
Posted by Marrena on June 3, 2014 at 2:17 PM · Report this
100
@99
"stop trying to make it seem like some kind of freakish behavior."

You are the one who made the point about wanting to be alone in a public place and NOT wanting human contact. I was and am curious. I said nothing about "freakish behavior". Anyway, thx.

Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 2:45 PM · Report this
101
@87 - Speaking as a gay man in a city with a smallish gay community (Nashville), I can say with reasonable certitude that *MOST* women are welcome at our gay bars *MOST* of the time. We have one lesbian bar (that's really only "lesbian" on Fri/Sat nights) but our sisters are always welcome at "our" bars. Too, we're pretty welcoming when it comes to our own & each others fruit flies...if you're there with one of the gays, you're family and that's that.

The problem is (for lack of better terminology) the "unattached" women, the "titterers", the bachelorette parties & their ilk...the ones that treat the gay bars & the gays within like zoos that they come to gawk at when they get tired of the str8 guys at the str8 bars. Case in point: just this past Saturday night, we were out at our (gay) dance club. I was in a harness (not my normal club clothes) because there had been a leather event at a bar down the street. (We don't have an actual leather bar...just semi-regular leather nights at a couple of our regular bars.) I must've had a dozen girls over the course of the night decide that it was perfectly acceptable to grab on & give my harness a yank...and yes, I'm talking about the c-strap. Finally, toward the end of the night, I'd had enough when one girl started pulling on it from behind...I turned, gave her the Luigi Death Stare, and said "That's not yours. Would you like it if I started yanking on your bra??" She acted offended & stalked off.

All that to say No, it's not wrong to want to go out with others in your community, and here at least, you'd be welcome. We don't mind women...we mind women that don't know how to act.
Posted by RoughRugger on June 3, 2014 at 3:08 PM · Report this
102
@87 - Speaking as a gay man in a city with a smallish gay community (Nashville), I can say with reasonable certitude that *MOST* women are welcome at our gay bars *MOST* of the time. We have one lesbian bar (that's really only "lesbian" on Fri/Sat nights) but our sisters are always welcome at "our" bars. Too, we're pretty welcoming when it comes to our own & each others fruit flies...if you're there with one of the gays, you're family and that's that.

The problem is (for lack of better terminology) the "unattached" women, the "titterers", the bachelorette parties & their ilk...the ones that treat the gay bars & the gays within like zoos that they come to gawk at when they get tired of the str8 guys at the str8 bars. Case in point: just this past Saturday night, we were out at our (gay) dance club. I was in a harness (not my normal club clothes) because there had been a leather event at a bar down the street. (We don't have an actual leather bar...just semi-regular leather nights at a couple of our regular bars.) I must've had a dozen girls over the course of the night decide that it was perfectly acceptable to grab on & give my harness a yank...and yes, I'm talking about the c-strap. Finally, toward the end of the night, I'd had enough when one girl started pulling on it from behind...I turned, gave her the Luigi Death Stare, and said "That's not yours. Would you like it if I started yanking on your bra??" She acted offended & stalked off.

All that to say No, it's not wrong to want to go out with others in your community, and here at least, you'd be welcome. We don't mind women...we mind women that don't know how to act.
Posted by RoughRugger on June 3, 2014 at 3:12 PM · Report this
103
@99

Btw, down-thread I wrote "(Assuming you live alone.)"
Which was not correct factually but that was my assumption.

If I had known right away that you had no solitude, that would have made things different.

And I would have said that "Yes, gay bars sound perfect for you". Lacking solitude at home you do have a reason to be able to go out by yourself to a bar.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 3:13 PM · Report this
104
There are not enough words in the English language to begin to articulate how thankful I am that this was posted, because I've seen similar articles before (although admittedly from sites like Jezebel where the question "Why was my bachelorette party at the local bear bar poorly received?" will get a round of applause rather than confusion) and it utterly boggles the mind why there is a (sadly somewhat growing, though still small) trend of crying "sexism!" when gay/bi men want to get with... surprise! Other gay/bi men! The analogy of you standing there watching lesbians have sex and then being offended at being asked to leave is spot-on. This is a brilliant post, Dan. Thank you again!
Posted by Enatai on June 3, 2014 at 3:46 PM · Report this
105
Thank you!! The ignorance his piece displayed was unlike anything i've read on HuffPost. He publicly attacked an historically marginalized community without any real insight into who and what that community was. Barry told me that he "heard" from "Friends" (including someone with the twitter name "buckangel" hopefully not the same buckangel we all know) that the leather community was transphobic and misogynistic. One of his friends told me that she believed the leather community was misogynist without anything to back it up. What kind of journalist writes a piece like that based almost entirely on what he heard from others?
Posted by UCSDgrad on June 3, 2014 at 4:40 PM · Report this
106
Thank you!! The ignorance his piece displayed was unlike anything i've read on HuffPost. He publicly attacked an historically marginalized community without any real insight into who and what that community was. Barry told me that he "heard" from "Friends" (including someone with the twitter name "buckangel" hopfully not the same buckangel we all know) that the leather community was transphobic and misogynistic. One of his friends told me that she believed the leather community was misogynist without anything to back it up. What kind of journalist writes a piece like that based almost entirely on what he heard from others?
Posted by UCSDgrad on June 3, 2014 at 4:45 PM · Report this
107
@73... I was responding to Dan calling a ( unregistered ) female
Writer@31, an idiot/ @34/ then as the posts got more nasty towards women fromen/ no comment came from him.. That he has supported GLBT is relevant how in this context?
Posted by LavaGirl on June 3, 2014 at 6:02 PM · Report this
108
Hey 86, I sure as shit don't dress to attract men, but I still get hit on because there are some men who will hit on anything with tits in hopes of getting a hook-up. And telling them that I am gay isn't ever a deterrent, it becomes a "challenge" for them. They always think that *they* will be the one to "convert" me. Nope, not gonna happen.

Posted by Izzy_Bootblack on June 3, 2014 at 6:27 PM · Report this
109
Author's question is flawed from the outset:

"How do groups that have traditionally been marginalized create a safe-space for themselves without simultaneously enacting the same exclusionary policies they've been fighting against?"

Such groups announce by saying "PRIVATE PARTY - GAY MEN ONLY".

Then when those same gay men go to work (at whatever they do in the world) they observe the law and treat everyone (i.e. women, hetero men and whatever else) fairly/equally.

Seems like the author just wanted to write an article.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 6:36 PM · Report this
110
@108
Just to clarify, since maybe I am misunderstanding, what do YOU mean when YOU use the term "hit on"?

Is it
1. "Hi, I'm Joe. Is this seat taken?"
2. "Hi, I'm Joe...Is this seat taken?....Uh...Beautiful day wasn't it?"
3. "Hi, I'm Joe...Is this seat taken?....uh...Beautiful day wasn't it?....Gosh can I get you a refill?"
4. "Hi, I'm Joe...Hot dress, babe...You know you have really fabulous tits."
5. "Hi, I'm Joe and super-cool. Like to suck my cock out in the parking lot?"

So where does "hit on" start?
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 6:45 PM · Report this
111
Why the big surprise that women might be eroticised by men only
Parties? Fruit flies/ fag hags- ugly name tags/
Straight men openly express being eroticised by thoughts of lesbian sex.
Imposing oneself into situations where one is not welcome/
Yep rude.. And some women behaving disrespectfully towards gay men/ also rude..
Not sure I'd find walking into a room of men sucking each other off, all that erotic/ but the freedom ( one assumes) gay men have when they congregate , I find erotic.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 3, 2014 at 7:21 PM · Report this
112
@110: I'm certain that Marrena is glad to know you approve of her lifestyle choices. Good thing you followed that through, to be certain that her behavior was acceptable.

And women know what 'hit on' means. We're adults, we know when someone is just making conversation and when they're trying it on. Pretty sure Izzy doesn't need to explain herself to you, pal.
Posted by clashfan on June 3, 2014 at 7:52 PM · Report this
113
Barry's piece is just an irresponsible first-person blog. It is neither journalism nor well-informed. He can write whatever he wants. The fact that a respected outlet like HuffPo deemed this reportage and representative is disappointing. Barry's getting credentials for one media outlet then submitting to an unapproved (by IML) second publication with a different agenda is unethical; it doesn't give IML a choice in whether they want this representation from an unvetted contributor. Pieces like this make it that much harder for experienced, conscientious media to gain the trust of their subjects.
Posted by supernova on June 3, 2014 at 7:54 PM · Report this
114
@112
Lighten up.
Learn to read.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 3, 2014 at 7:56 PM · Report this
115
@75 - Thank you.

And for the rest of you ladies who cannot draw a conclusion from the VERY specific set of circumstances outlined in my original post (48), I will now spell it out for you v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y: I did not say all women everywhere have to be kicked out of all gay bars everywhere. In fact, I made reference specifically to the Seattle Eagle bar. And I conceded that you gals had already polluted every other bar in town, I just wanted to see one - the Seattle Eagle - be left alone to the gays.

But of course, Miss Poor Comprehension chimed in and made the usual claim that as long as one woman out of 3.5 billion is the exception to the rule, then rest of them get a free pass. I never said every woman wants to go to the Eagle on Bearracuda night and screech her stupid head off for attention - just one did that. It would have been a completely different story if it was a hunky, hairy bear laughing loudly in the crowd because that is what the event was for! You won't get it, though. You will just dress up next weekend with a pretty dress and cutie-pie bows in your hair and titter the night away at the Seattle Eagle just because you're a wild and awesome girl. Tee hee hee!
Posted by montex on June 3, 2014 at 8:36 PM · Report this
116
On more thing for LavaGirl; what the hell is up with the poor sentence structure and the stupid slashes? Do you believe that by murdering English as a written language that somehow makes you a more impressive personality? It doesn't. It makes you look uneducated and sloppy. Maybe this is the new feminist code you use to alert the hordes of your latest screed. In that case, very clever but unnecessary. I can tell by the content of your message that you are not someone I would spend five minutes of my life talking to.
Posted by montex on June 3, 2014 at 11:00 PM · Report this
117
Gee Montex, I'm real upset bout that/ I was sure hoping you'd call me over/ we'd have some D&M/ and maybe I could steer you towards looking at what really is the problem you have with women..


Posted by LavaGirl on June 4, 2014 at 12:52 AM · Report this
118
And Montex, just set up a bar in your garage/ in that space you can keep those pesky creatures with vaginas and bows out.

Posted by LavaGirl on June 4, 2014 at 1:16 AM · Report this
119
@101, 102

Grizzlies!!

...btw, love the Wall of Sin.
Posted by Rugger Bugger on June 4, 2014 at 3:07 AM · Report this
Canadian Nurse 120
He posted a "politicians apology" today (i.e., I'm sorry people felt offended or that people felt like I was focusing on the leather community. Really, all gay sex parties are horribly misogynist)

The IML community is not accepting his apology.
Posted by Canadian Nurse on June 4, 2014 at 5:12 AM · Report this
121
@78

In MOST gay male spaces you will be welcome, but you need to respect the space and remember that it's not for you in the same way a lesbian space isn't for me. We need our safe spaces because let's be honest, most straight people are cool with us theoretically, but actual direct exposure to gay culture is icky or treated as an anthropology exhibit. We need to have our spaces where we can be ourself, whatever that is.

Speaking of which, your first reason is terrible, a straight woman hitting on guys in a gay space is guaranteed to make people uncomfortable, even if you're managing to be 100% accurate. As a bi man, it would make me uncomfortable in a gay space. We don't go to gay spaces to be hit on by straight people much like you visit a gay bar to avoid being hit on by straight guys, given that it's also supposed to be our safe space, that's pretty much the worst thing you can do.

2 and 3 are fine, as long as you respect that you're not who the space is for, have your drinks in peace and meet your friends.

4 is iffy, if curiosity is sated by mingling and making friends and being respectful in our space then it's fine, but we are not anthropology exhibits, we are not spectacles for your amusement.

Please stop 1 immediately, and make sure to always ask yourself whether you're being disrespectful to the space. Maybe consider whether your behavior would be acceptable if an outsider to a women's space was doing it.

@97 When one can go out to drink without getting hit on, it's a STRAIGHT male privilege, in a gay space going out to drink usually means that you're gonna get hit on. Just because he doesn't understand why, doesn't mean that it's coming from the same place, consider that maybe for him being hit on is WHY he goes out to drink in gay spaces. Not that it's wrong to call him out for not understanding why, but it's silly to assume that a gay man is acting out a point of male privilage which is unique to straight men.

And can we stop the misogyny in the comment section? Yes some straight women do not know how to act properly in gay spaces, that doesn't mean that we should generalize women, nor trivialize their issues. Yes, they have straight privilege and certainly there are plenty that don't know how to act in gay spaces, but they have their own issues with privilege and just like they don't understand the gay experience, we don't understand the experience of being women.

Both gay men and straight women are equally capable of marginalizing each other.
More...
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 4, 2014 at 5:24 AM · Report this
122
@25 a bit late but no one answered your question about orgy etiquette -- even at open door orgies there is an understood door policy, some are pangender (anyone gets in), some are for a specific kink or understood to be a certain demographic, furthermore within the sex party there is generally an "ask first" code -- "asking" can simply be eye contact and a slow approach, but someone who gets a "no" which can include a hand brushing you aside or a shake of the head who persists will rightly get thrown out. A transman who has undergone hormone and top surgery to affirm his gender will appear typically male and generally be welcome at a gay male-only sex party, phalloplasty is not a requirement. Many cis males have such tiny cocks you can't tell the difference from a few feet away, and many sex parties are basically hand jobs and body rubs, too crowded and not comfy enough for advanced stuff though one can often see some wilder stuff over by the slings.
Posted by delta35 on June 4, 2014 at 5:32 AM · Report this
123
@97 I was replying to a straight guy when I was talking about male privilege. He was doing his #notallmen routine, and I let him keep talking and now every women in this thread knows he's super-creepy.

And I reassure you, the #1 reason I gave is a valid one. The gay bar I used to go to here in Boston is complicated. It had straight nights as well, and I only went specifically on crossdresser nights. The mistress of ceremonies encouraged me to come and would nudge me towards those she knew were interested. And I didn't hit on drag queens.

Also I haven't been back in a couple years--I'm in a happy relationship and no longer looking--it would cause feelings of jealousy too. Now I just go out alone to the occasional straight bar and fend off the menfolk.
Posted by Marrena on June 4, 2014 at 5:45 AM · Report this
124
Oy, I meant @122 in my previous post.
Posted by Marrena on June 4, 2014 at 5:50 AM · Report this
125
@121, if women are allowed into these bars, then they are not really gay spaces. Maybe gays go to certain bars to meet up, but if it's a public space then unless you are the bar owner, what right have you got to say who goes there/ or tell them what their motivation should be?
Any bar has people in it whose behaviour may piss off others in the bar/ in that situation, you just leave the bar.
Gross assumptions of power going on here. From you, from other men on this thread. The rudeness towards women is just amazing.
I'm not saying that having a gay space is not acceptable. I am saying that assuming you or others can tell someone how they have to be/ who they have to be, in a public bar- is just assuming way too much power.
If you want a man only environment , then create one in your own houses. Keep Women, , African Americans, Jews out (wherever your prejudice leans too).
I'm so pissed by the disgusting put downs of women here. Replace the word " Women"( or fruit flies/ fag hags/ c....),in many of these posts here, with "Jews "or "African American" and all hell would break loose.. But no, when it's Women being demeaned a slightly raised protest. Nothing more.
Some disgusting attitudes.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 4, 2014 at 6:18 AM · Report this
126
I think that the same etiquette -- if not gay, be cautious (or absent) in gay bars, same for lesbians etc -- applies in straight spaces. If you are not open to the prevailing social customs of the place, be aware that you may not be in the right place. So a man who goes into a sports bar (and doesn't want to enter into a conversation about whatever team is on the TV) may expect to get some funny looks. Or realize that someone is severely depressed.

So a person is inappropriate if s/he goes into a straight space like a bar and doesn't want to be willing to engage in some casual conversation. And if none of the people in that bar are interesting enough to talk to, go to a different bar where that place meets your requirements.

So just to get a level playing field, what does "hit on" mean? Where does "hit on" start?
Where along that continuum? Where does "casual conversation" end and "hit on" start?

Woman is sitting at the bar. Empty seat beside her. Is it:

1. "Hi, I'm Dan. Is this seat taken?"
2. "Hi, I'm Dan...Is this seat taken?....Uh...Beautiful day wasn't it?"
3. "Hi, I'm Dan...Is this seat taken?....Uh...Beautiful day wasn't it?....Uhm...Gosh can I get you a refill?"
4. "Hi, I'm Dan...Is this seat taken?...Hot dress, babe...You know you have really fabulous tits."
5. "Hi, I'm Dan...Is this seat taken?....I'm super-cool....Like to suck my cock out in the parking lot?"

So where does "hit on" start?

And just btw, do you really think that men LIKE to hit on women? Like to always have to make conversation? To always have to fit into the male role to be the aggressor? Dream on babe.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 6:22 AM · Report this
127
@123
Please get off your high horse about men. It is so fucking pretentious.

I asked why you would drink alone in a PUBLIC bar and I even asked whether it was that you had no place alone at home. (Go read.)

But then you go off on some weird BS about whatever when you could have simply said is "I go out to a public place to be alone because I don't have a private space at home where I can be alone."

That would have answered my question very easily. But instead you have to do your condescending woman thing about men. Fuck that.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 6:34 AM · Report this
128
@126, 127. You really don't think women hit on men in bars?
They do. If they want to. Sometimes they just wanna sit in a bar, amongst other people, and be alone.
None of those lines you suggested sound at all good. Just try some inner intuition first. Look around, see if women are also looking around. See if any women notice you.
Then , just start with hi.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 4, 2014 at 6:46 AM · Report this
129
@ 125

We're talking explicitly about gay male spaces and this rule holds just as well for lesbian spaces.

I'm sorry but no, you're the one who has the privilege here, but at the very least you should recognize that EVERY marginalized group deserves their safe spaces, a space where they get to be free from what privilege does, a place where they can simply be the norm. This is true of African americans, gaysians, women, and gay men.

Safe spaces isn't exclusionary necessarily, but it means that you need to respect the group the space is designed for. If you can't, then you shouldn't be there.

Let's be frank here, women are as much a group that protest is raised about as any of the others you mentioned. The fact that you consider having a safe space for a group without privilege, any group without privilege, equivalent to privileged people excluding those less privileged most spaces means that you both know nothing about the struggles of the gay movement and furthermore know nothing about the struggles of gender equality, because establishing safe spaces for women IS a major part of feminism.

Your straight privilege is showing, educate yourself on gay issues before speaking on this, and educate yourself on feminism while you're at it.

Meanwhile, people who aren't gay men are still welcome in most gay male spaces, as long as you chose to respect us. Those spaces that you aren't welcome are usually sexual in nature and then it becomes a matter of consent.
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 4, 2014 at 6:49 AM · Report this
130
@128
Please don't act the innocent.
Women only "hit on" good-looking men.
I am not good-looking.
Thanks for reminding me.

My question is (and you refuse to take it seriously) what does "Hit on" mean? To you or anyone? The way this other woman "Marrena" -- aka "I vant to be alone!" -- was acting (and yes she was posturing big time) makes it sound as if "Hi" = "Hit on".

So my question is real, as I wouldn't want to hurt the tender sensibilities of a woman sitting at a public bar having a drink if I make a huge faux pas by saying "Hello."
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 7:03 AM · Report this
131
@123

Ok, i'm sure that was aimed at me though mine shows as 121.

Oh you're right, I misread him. So ya that is coming from a place of male privilege. Though I will agree with him on one thing, male gender roles can be suffocating. It did seem like something a gay guy could say if they appreciate the attention.

I'm sorry but none of that really excuses the behavior unless said person was essentially acting as a go between. If the bi guy makes the first move, either directly or in practice then it's ok, otherwise don't. It's really uncomfortable for a woman to be hitting on men in a gay male space, not just for the people involved but for everyone around them, it makes you seem predatory.

@lava-girl: I will agree with you on one thing, the general misogyny in this comment thread is pretty disappointing as I stated before.
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 4, 2014 at 7:22 AM · Report this
132
"Male privilege"
"Hit on"

Utter cant. (No pun).
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 7:26 AM · Report this
133
ummm, ya the expectation that you can hit on a woman pretty much wherever regardless of whether or not she displays openness to it is straight male privilege.

What you said earlier about things like her clothes telling the story for example, fashion sense displays personality, not whether she's open entertaining a potential sexual partner. That's body language and what she says. If she doesn't indicate that she wants to talk to you, respect that.
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 4, 2014 at 7:43 AM · Report this
134
@133
Please don't patronize; please just answer the fucking question.
And maybe learn how to read?
And get a sense of humor?
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 7:46 AM · Report this
135
@131--Honey, I AM predatory. Also, let me explain. In this gay bar, in a specific room it was crossdressers' night. I was not going out in the general bar area and hitting on your standard gay man. I was hitting on men in dresses, and I left before the queens and chasers showed up at midnight. You can ask Dan--the odds are pretty high that a crossdresser (as opposed to a trans woman or drag queen) is mostly straight and bisexual only through circumstance (i.e., that many women won't have sex with them).

If there were other places to easily meet them, I wouldn't have gone there. But it's hard, even in a big city. Crossdressers (understandably) are pretty shy about congregating.
Posted by Marrena on June 4, 2014 at 7:47 AM · Report this
136
@134

I can't answer for women because I'm not a woman. "It's just a joke", isn't a defense if it's a joke that reinforces privilege rather then ridicules it.

@135

Ok, then that's not really a gay space even if it IS technically a gay bar. That I can understand, but it's not really a reason to be hitting on guys in a gay space, it's just a space traditionally thought of as gay that really isn't.
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 4, 2014 at 8:14 AM · Report this
137
@136.
First of all, I didn't say "It's just a joke" so don't distort things.
Then, I have no idea what you are talking about what would lead you think I have "male privilege"?

1. I asked Ms. I-vant-to-be-alone why she likes to go to a public space to drink to be alone. Finally, after much BS,she was able to explain.

2. Then I ask what does "HIT ON" actually mean? I tried to make it easy to offer a continuum of social gambits. Some were OBVIOUSLY absurd and in fact so absurd as to be HUMOROUS. But I guess you didn't get them.

Is asking questions "male privilege"?
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 8:37 AM · Report this
nocutename 138
Dear not my name or yours:
Please take a nap. You're pretty cranky. Also, maybe consider how much people enjoy civil discourse.

And don't tell people simultaneously to "learn to read," "answer the fucking question," and to "lighten up" and "get a sense of humor." You've sworn at posters at least twice. Are they supposed to have a "sense of humor" about that?

As far as being hit on goes, you know it when you experience it. There is no specific "hit on" phrase. While it can be extremely direct, the phrase "I'm super-cool....Like to suck my cock out in the parking lot?" is not a come-on--it's something else (and unlikely to get you the result you want). Being hit on isn't necessarily a matter of an exact phrase. It's often comprised of nuance, of body language, of intonation, of the amount of eye contact. But you know that. You're just trying to bait these posters.

I'm sorry that you aren't hit on by women, if you want to be. But having read your posts, I can say with reasonable assurance that it's not your looks, or lack of them, that's the cause; it's your combative, hostile attitude.
Posted by nocutename on June 4, 2014 at 8:43 AM · Report this
139
@138

Go back and read the thread and what I wrote.

My questions were pointed -- that's what questions are for -- but totally civil until I received responses from jerks, like you.

Don't like it? Too bad :)
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 8:56 AM · Report this
140
@137

You told me to "get a sense of humor", so ya you did dismiss it as a joke. I wasn't talking about the situations you displayed, I was talking about your general assertion that women being in a public space and what they wear is an invitation to being hit on.

That's male privilege, plain and simple.

Now I'll agree that there is the countering gender role that men have to be the aggressor, but it's all part of a complex web that establishes power relationships and social privilege.
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 4, 2014 at 9:01 AM · Report this
nocutename 141
@139: I did read the thread. I read your attacks on Marrena, on AdumbroDeus, on Clashfan. Not one of those people was as rude to you as you were to them. And now me. I'm not surprised, because it's perfectly in character, but I do wonder how am I a jerk? For telling you that swearing at people isn't compatible with telling them to "lighten up?"

Posted by nocutename on June 4, 2014 at 9:02 AM · Report this
142
Damnit, I should have said most trans women are straight. My excuse is that I'm an old person--still getting trying to get this right.

Also, nocutename, as an old person, my being hit on rituals are different than the ones you were asking. Men my age when hitting on lady usually offer to buy her a drink, as an intro. Then the lady politely refuses or accepts, and then goes on to indicate whether she is interested in conversation or not. It's pretty clear cut. The one time I stumbled in this process was the one time at the gay bar when the straight guy tried to pick me up. I thought he was gay and was just trying to be friendly by buying me a drink, so I accepted (I didn't want to offend with a refusal of simple friendliness). I apologized profusely when I found out my error and offered to buy him one in return.

It's fine to hit on women in bars. What's not fine is judging the general behavior of those women. I do especially enjoy my solitude out and about now that I'm a mom, but I also engaged in the same behavior when I was young and living alone. Sometimes a woman wants to go to a bar and is not in the mood to meet strangers. Maybe she just wants to people watch or enjoy the music or finds a particular cocktail delicious. And that's okay.

Posted by Marrena on June 4, 2014 at 9:16 AM · Report this
143
Blah, did I mention I'm old? That comment was directed at not my name but yours.
Posted by Marrena on June 4, 2014 at 9:20 AM · Report this
nocutename 144
Marrena, I'm probably older than you. I wasn't asking about "hitting on" rituals--I was telling not my name or yours, who had asked what constituted a "hit" that there wasn't necessarily a specific word or phrase, though I agree that the offer to buy someone you don't know a drink is always a come-on.

I wasn't passing judgement on women's rights to be in bars free from being hit on, or on women's abilities to do the hitting. I've got no issue with any of that.
As to the original story this whole comment thread is about, I don't think a woman or a straight man had any business being at a gay male orgy. And it wasn't discriminatory to want them not to be there. But that's not what you and not my name or yours have been talking about.
Posted by nocutename on June 4, 2014 at 9:25 AM · Report this
nocutename 145
@142, 143, 144: Oops: Confusion, posts crossing, all good now!
Posted by nocutename on June 4, 2014 at 9:29 AM · Report this
146
Many of you are not able to read.
Good bye.
Not worth the energy to answer to such idiots.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 9:32 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 147
Has the Stranger attracted a new troll? I simply don't have the inclination to read all this stuff to find out, so I'd appreciate it if someone would take pity on my lazy ass and just tell me.
Posted by Matt from Denver on June 4, 2014 at 10:07 AM · Report this
148
Don't think he's a troll, just a straight guy that doesn't realize his own privilege and sees any attempts at calling it out as being a jerk
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 4, 2014 at 10:12 AM · Report this
149
@147 @148
Again, please go back and re-read the thread.
I am fully aware of male privilege -- in fact of my own WHITE male privilege.
I am all the nicest things you could imagine and I am very accepting of everything -- except cant and bullshit.

As I think one of you said, there is plenty of BS everywhere in humanity and LGBT not immune.

So just go back and re-read. It starts with a very simple question about why someone would go out in public to have a drink by oneself. The answer has nothing to do with gender or sexual preference but only with not having privacy at home. Just a reminder: many straight white males have no privacy to drink alone in their own home (because they have family/room-mates etc.).

Had the writer been clear/polite enough to simply explain that fact -- "I have no privacy at home so I have to get out by myself" -- she could have told me and I would have said "Ah. I see. Good point. I somehow assume that everyone like me -- especially on SLOG -- lives alone. Me dumb."

Instead we get this stupid conversation.

And if you don't like my explanation or are too lazy to read the thread, fuck off again.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 11:52 AM · Report this
150
Savage was accurate but overly-long in explanation.

The core of the author's question was flawed from the outset:

"How do groups that have traditionally been marginalized create a safe-space for themselves without simultaneously enacting the same exclusionary policies they've been fighting against?"

It's such a stupid question and the answer is easy: you do it in private.

It's OK to erect barriers in certain constitutionally-protected situations like private parties. It's OK to announce by saying in your home or hotel room "PRIVATE PARTY - GAY MEN ALLOWED ONLY".

It is Not OK when those same gay men go to work (at whatever they do in the world). In a PUBLIC situation (the office, construction site etc etc) they must observe the law and treat everyone (i.e. women, hetero men and whatever else) fairly/equally.

I think that the author of the underlying article just didn't think it through clearly.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 12:22 PM · Report this
151
Weren't you leaving?
Posted by clashfan on June 4, 2014 at 12:49 PM · Report this
152
@151
I was having fun. )
U 2 I gather.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 12:57 PM · Report this
153
@129. These are still public spaces you are talking about? Public bars- where gays meet up/ bars by their very nature are places where shitty drunken behaviour can and does happen.
Anyway, my point was not about any groups having a drinking meeting space/ gay women, gay men. Was pointing out the
Quick to freak out and be abusive to women words, coming from many posters. If the male gay community want respect for themselves to congregate in these public bars/ then trust those who understand your marginalized status will respect you.. Demand it like thugs, different story.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 4, 2014 at 2:38 PM · Report this
154
I thank Ms Nurse for the link to the fauxpology. He seems to present as having almost an anthropological interest in the event, and might even have attended the event with the idea of stirring up a bit of Leather-v-LGBT (well, G at least) discord.

Also, isn't it up to the allied party to bestow Ally status on an outsider?
Posted by vennominon on June 4, 2014 at 2:49 PM · Report this
155
@152

The sum of all your comments reveals the character of the act and the actor.

Spoiled Child.
Entitled Prick.
Petty Tyrant.
Narcissist.
Misogynist.
Sadist.
Manic.
OCD.

Troll.

If this list doesn't honestly represent who you really are, then bravo, thespian, for your convincing portrayal of all these traits and more.

Otherwise, troll, we're sure you'll soon find your misguided place in the Slog like so many other pricks and assholes who have stumbled into this space and never left.
Posted by Troll we name thee on June 4, 2014 at 3:04 PM · Report this
156
@147

Matt, it's just another straight, white male who confuses bad behavior with flirting because it got him what he wanted - the attention of a couple of women who reacted to his troll bait.

Posted by Nothing new to see here. Same Slog, Different Day. on June 4, 2014 at 3:16 PM · Report this
157
Some folks confuse "troll" with someone who asks a question.
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 3:38 PM · Report this
158
Not my name or yours, think nocutename explained
Pretty clearly . Yet you dissed on her. If you were serious about your questions, then pay people who make the effort to talk with you, some respect- as they respond.
First off, why does it matter why a woman or man wants to sit quietly in a bar? Don't wanna talk. Don't wanna be picked up. They just do.
As I said above, trust your intuition. Or maybe, develop it. People can very clearly send out nonverbal messages/ you just read em. No words needed.
Being good looking is not an issue( you rich? No just kidding).
And yes, maybe just saying hi could be constructed as a " hit-on line", and it is, isn't it? So, be real with yourself why you're in the bar.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 4, 2014 at 3:44 PM · Report this
159
@158
R U serious? Giving advice?
My advice to U is "Don't be a twit." I wasn't asking for advice so don't offer it.

Again: I was asking a question about why someone would go to a public place and not want to engage in conversation. It was totally sincere. It was a perfectly reasonable non-sneering question. It was non-sexist. It was MY question. If you don't like it, don't answer. In fact, the woman who did answer FINALLY explained that she had no privacy at home so couldn't get away alone anywhere else except a bar. Why should I not ask a question like that? It doesn't violate her privacy etc etc And SHE could have just ignored my question.

What is YOUR problem?
Posted by unregistered 9182 on June 4, 2014 at 3:57 PM · Report this
160
Dear Mr Last Word @159. sorry.. But can't you read? Think way back you asked some qus about when it becomes a hit-on- then you proceeded to give some examples. As well as asking why someone would want to be in a bar alone.
Some unasked for advice/ comment; you seem to have poor impulse control. Quick to anger? Big turn off for most women. So it wouldn't much matter what words you'd use in your " hit- on" scenario. Cause it wouldn't take long for the woman to get the picture.. More uncalled for advice. Do some therapy. Learn to control yourself.. Good luck.
Posted by LavaGirl on June 4, 2014 at 4:35 PM · Report this
Ophian 161
Mr. ven @ 36, I'm peeved that I didn't catch the Lion reference. [I was Philip in a high school production that definitely ran with the same-sexer context of the roles.]
Posted by Ophian on June 4, 2014 at 4:38 PM · Report this
162
@ 153 I will completely agree with you that what some of the posters said was uncalled for and misogynist, something I called them out on.

However keep in mind the intrusion in the article was not a public space, it was a private space so you can understand why people would be annoyed.

Furthermore there is certainly a line between poor drunken behavior and sexual harassment, there is also a line between poor drunken behavior and treating underprivileged people like a zoo for your amusement.

I will also say this, as every activist movement learned you don't get better treatment by being silent, you get it by demanding and refusing to be ignored. The spirit of stonewall is what began our march to equality and I'll be damned if we back down quietly now. That doesn't mean being an asshole, but it does mean demanding to be treated like human beings.
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 4, 2014 at 4:50 PM · Report this
Ophian 163
@160, as someone who loves to bring a book or cross-word to a bar for some "alone" time [I have a home full of housemates], and as someone who has been hit-on in that context by women and men [I'm a bi, cis, white male, for whatever that is worth], I have to admit that I am just about as clueless as @110 when it comes to hitting-on people.

I've dealt with the attentions of men/women that I found tiresome. I've had men go for a grab or a kiss, when that was not at all what I thought was going was going on, and had to figure out how to respond. And, while less so, I've dealt with a couple of women who got a little too grabby. So I know what getting hit-on is in the bad way.

But many of those people who "interrupted" to asked me what book I was reading [a great conversation starter, and way to vet someone who may/may not be hitting on me BTW] turned out to be people I did enjoy talking to, fucking and/or dating. So I know what getting hit-on is in the good way.

But if I dress to my best advantage, and choose to put myself in a social space [a bar], I consider being approached as part of the deal. It can be delightful or very uncomfortable, but anyone with reasonable intentions--even if totally inept--are just other people to be dealt with as kindly as possible.

I know that I don't have to deal with the same frequency that some women do, and that being a man receiving unwanted attention from a man is not the same as a woman fending of a man [sexual violence dynamics are totally different], but I am mystified by how one hits-on a person "the right way."

So, everything else aside [I haven't read the whole thread in detail], what are the cardinal DOs and DON'Ts of approaching a person of interest? Seriously.
More...
Posted by Ophian on June 4, 2014 at 5:18 PM · Report this
Canadian Nurse 164
Mr Venn @154: I definitely agree. You can aim to be an ally, but you don't get to say, "I know this looks phobic, but it can't be! I'm an ally!"
Posted by Canadian Nurse on June 4, 2014 at 6:11 PM · Report this
165
My husband, a white man, recently told me that he used to go to a Korean bar in his neighborhood where people were friendly, but that he eventually stopped going because he felt as though he was kind of invading the Korean patrons' space.
Posted by tsewah on June 4, 2014 at 7:10 PM · Report this
Lissa 166
Damn montex. I don't take exception to you wanting a strictly gay space, but I do take exception to your general misogyny. You could have made your point with out all the pejorative adjectives and adverbs to gussy it up.
Just sayin'
Posted by Lissa on June 4, 2014 at 7:34 PM · Report this
167
Mr O - Well, it was a mere paraphrase. Sounds like a fun play.
Posted by vennominon on June 4, 2014 at 8:01 PM · Report this
168
Hey AdumbroDeus, I agree, although this thread moved away from a private party, to complaints about bars. And of course no one has
The right to engage in sexual harrasment towards anyone, or treat them like an object.
That the thread degenerated into such generalized attack on women, ALL women, with such ugliness, was a shame.
I would expect, after the struggles and pain of the last 40 yrs for gay ,lesbian and trans* people to stand tall and proud and keep vigilant about any attacks . ( a few silly women in a few gay bars, though/ just ignore them). And I, as a straight woman , am happy to stand in support of you. Regards.

Posted by LavaGirl on June 4, 2014 at 9:22 PM · Report this
169
@163. No idea. Really. It obviously is a hit/ miss type scenario.
And yes, if one is in a bar alone, others may assume one is open to being approached. Though, like you- I like to sit in public with a book. That to me would/ should be clear indication to others, that I'm occupied. Truth is, at my mature age, I'd be fine with a reasonably presented man joining me..
And , the poster I was talking with, may have just been stirring . But he sure got cross very quick. A few posters did try to share with him, myself included. But got crossed at. But he was cool, if a tad inconsistent. All grist for the Savage Mill, I guess..
Posted by LavaGirl on June 4, 2014 at 9:48 PM · Report this
170
@ 168

Some people did, and they have been chastened, the one real remainder is a surprise surprise, straight guy. You should not however, generalize our community, we are individuals to the point that some are misogynists, just like some women (even feminists) are homophobes. It's not the gay community expressing misogyny, it's gay people.

As far as vigilence, keep in mind that these issues are systematic of a larger problem, of gays being treating as a sex object, or a zoo display, or fashion accessory. The only way to address to deal with these underlying systemic issues is to deal with them at the source and address them, and that means actually saying something to those women that are objectifying us by holding a bachelor party at the eagle.

Privilege is mostly subtle things that people think nothing of doing, and doesn't get addressed unless people actually say something, and doesn't get fixed unless seen as a symptom of a larger issue.

@163 it all comes down to the fact that you never have a right to somebody's attention and what is too much is subject to the standards of the person on the receiving end, not yours.

But in this case, it's somebody going to a space that generally isn't frequented by people who would be interested in her for that purpose, I really don't see the issue.
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 4, 2014 at 9:50 PM · Report this
sissoucat 171
@35 Dan

How to tell that Ragu isn't Raku : Ragu always leaves it at one comment. Raku can't control her angst.

@Ragu : fucking brilliant.
Posted by sissoucat on June 5, 2014 at 1:48 AM · Report this
sissoucat 172
@163 I'm not surprised you don't need to hit on other persons, you gorgeous you.
Posted by sissoucat on June 5, 2014 at 1:53 AM · Report this
173
@157

No confusion here, sweetie.

You didn't simply ask a question. You made a judgement and posed it as a question.

It's a beginner's provocation - sloppy and second hand at best. No skill. No finesse.

When her response was dismissive instead of being an earnest explanation, you responded in kind by escalating the exchange to badgering.

Not only are you a troll, dear, you're not really good at it, are you?

Well, that's all the time we have to play with you.

Get better soon.
Posted by Game Over...Would You Like To Play Again? on June 5, 2014 at 5:24 AM · Report this
174
There are a lot of sentences, and the headline, where 'gay' must specifically mean 'gay male' to make sense. As lesbian sex is mentioned in the first sentence, does the omission of fag sex mean the word reclamation failed? In which case, can a new word be chosen for male gay, or is homo the only gender neutral word left?
Posted by Philophile on June 5, 2014 at 6:09 AM · Report this
175
@174 Well interesting the reason why gay tends to refer to men has to do with the lesbian movement choosing to differentiate itself from gay men (something I actually learned from a poster here), it didn't fully stick however so now "gay" is sort of gendered but not entirely whereas lesbian refers to only women.
Posted by AdumbroDeus on June 5, 2014 at 8:04 AM · Report this
176
@174

The word "gay" is both gender neutral and gender specific; context reveals it.

Of course, the first sentence of Dan's second paragraph might have been better and more succinctly written as "Two lesbians are having sex in a hotel room."

However, considering how many people in Dan's audience demand to be narrowly defined and specifically labeled by group and sub-group identities, I am understanding when he uses an overabundance of words to be accommodating.
Posted by Context on June 5, 2014 at 8:09 AM · Report this
Alison Cummins 177
Why was @110 reduced to unregistered troll status? He was unhappy and frustrated but had real questions he wanted answered so he could understand better.

1) Hitting on is not a bad thing in itself. Sometimes it leads to something more, sometimes it doesn’t but is a compliment, sometimes it’s just tedious.

2) Harassment is something else. Harassment is when you’ve communicated that you aren’t interested but the contact continues or escalates.

3) All those examples are “hitting on” and will work some of the time. I knew someone whose preferred method of hitting on women was to drop his pants. He got intensive work with social workers and psychologists helping him understand other people’s points of view and developing alternative communication strategies. He was taken to the police station where police officers explained the consequences of dropping your pants in public. Nothing worked, until one day he dropped his pants in front of the right woman and they started dating. Then the public pants-dropping stopped.

4) The reason women might find being hit on tedious is that sometimes they don’t want to be forced to interact with other people. Sometimes they just want to enjoy being surrounded by people without having to spend energy on tactfully declining offers. Another reason could be the little voice warning that she’s attracting too much attention and she could be in danger.

5) Privilege and Entitlement are different things.
> Women understand what it’s like to have to invest energy in navigating men’s expectations of them when they are out in public. Men not having that understanding is *privilege*: the privilege of being able to freely go out in public without worrying about whose sexual attention they might attract.
> Men who believe that they have the right to hit on any woman, any time and to be treated respectfully are demonstrating *entitlement*: the entitlement to women’s sexual services (including the verbal sexual service of an attractive woman hinting ‘perhaps some other time...’). If you hit on someone, they are annoyed and you immediately back off respecting their right to feel annoyed, that’s not necessarily entitlement. (It might be, depending on context — work is not a good place to ask for sexual services no matter how respectful you are of their right to feel annoyed at the request.)
More...
Posted by Alison Cummins http://cleanmyscreen.peghole.com/ on June 5, 2014 at 11:12 AM · Report this
Alison Cummins 178
Some people thought that ‘gay’ was gender-neutral until they started replacing it with ‘gay-and-lesbian’ and ended up with some nonsensical statements like, “bathhouses are an important part of gay and lesbian sexuality.” “Gays and lesbians are at increased risk of contracting HIV.” “Boyz Magazine is a gay and lesbian publication.”

It then became clear to gay men that lesbians had concerns and interests of their own, and that just because something was very interesting to gay men didn’t mean it was a universal part of the same-sex experience.

In the seventies and eighties, the lesbian community had a significant overlap with the feminist movement — they were feminists who happened to love other women. In the eighties and nineties, lesbians developed a culture of their own, separate from both feminism and gay men. In the nineties and noughts, feminism kind of fell away and the overlap between the GSD communities became more salient.
Posted by Alison Cummins http://cleanmyscreen.peghole.com/ on June 5, 2014 at 11:24 AM · Report this
179
When I was growing up I disliked the faggot/lesbian dichotomy. I wish Dan had reclaimed faggot, and I'll still keep using faggy as hot (keeping with the fire base/cigarette meanings). But I'll start using homo as my gender neutral word, apparently decades behind others. It's so clinical though! But then you can joke about everyone being homo.. sapien. Um and don't drink and post.
Posted by Philophile on June 5, 2014 at 3:19 PM · Report this
180
178: You are mistaken if you truly believe lesbians did not have a culture and community of their own before the 80s. Have you not read 'Stone Butch Blues'?
Posted by clashfan on June 5, 2014 at 6:05 PM · Report this
181
Ophian @163 "what are the cardinal DOs and DON'Ts of approaching a person of interest?"

If they look occupied, you can say "excuse me" and ask a question that seems relevant:
"I heard about that book, do you like it?"
"Do you come here often? I gather they have live music some evenings, is that right?"

Or if you're not actually interrupting anything, then you can use a wider range of small talk, like: "some coffee!" or "hot weather we're having."

Then pay attention to their reaction. If they don't look directly at you, and only mumble an answer, then leave them alone. If they respond with a smile, that starts the dance where you each decide if you enjoy talking to the other person.

Alison @177, thank you for sharing the public pants-dropping story. Eye-opening.
Posted by EricaP on June 5, 2014 at 6:17 PM · Report this
robotbutler 182
Serious question unrelated, kind of, to the post. I see a lot of instances now where people use "women" when discussing an individual person. Is this a thing? Or do typos just really bother me? Should I be using only "women" now? Am I going to be called a pig or chauvinist if I use "woman" I have to know!
Posted by robotbutler on June 5, 2014 at 6:29 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 183
@177: "Why was @110 reduced to unregistered troll status? He was unhappy and frustrated but had real questions he wanted answered so he could understand better."

You must be constantly surprised that trolls aren't actually interested in your explanation. They're looking to feel like a victim, but their lines never change or evolve.
Posted by undead ayn rand on June 5, 2014 at 7:23 PM · Report this
184
M? Butler - Perhaps it's because "womyn" has become plural as well as singular. I mentioned the singular use of "women" a while back, but it seems to have been dying down lately.

Mr O - Send a footman with a note. (Broadway Damage)
Posted by vennominon on June 5, 2014 at 8:46 PM · Report this
Alison Cummins 185
clashfan @180,

Have you not read Radclyffe Hall’s The Well of Loneliness? Or Sappho’s poetry?

Yes of course there was lesbian culture before the 1980s. I expressed myself extremely poorly. Lesbian-feminism was a thing in the 1970s to 1980s but isn’t any more. It was one of the dominant paradigms but didn’t survive the sex wars or intersectionality.
Posted by Alison Cummins http://cleanmyscreen.peghole.com/ on June 5, 2014 at 10:34 PM · Report this
186
Ms Cummins - Perhaps the radicals swallowed what was left of it; some members of the TERF crowd sound quite like people or writings I used to know back in the days when some events were for "wymyn-born-wymyn" only.
Posted by vennominon on June 6, 2014 at 3:36 AM · Report this
187
@178, how can you make such a blanket statement that
Lesbian - Feminism, is a thing of the past?
What, Lesbians no longer women interested in having a voice? Maybe radical separatist- feminism- as a big movement, is in the past. Not needed as much these days, women ( and men), have confronted a lot of male ( cultural) assumptions. That needed to happen with much force in late 60s-70s..
And yes, how does someone who was registered suddenly get unregistered?
Posted by LavaGirl on June 6, 2014 at 4:14 AM · Report this
Alison Cummins 188
vennominon, that would be the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, still going strong.
Posted by Alison Cummins http://cleanmyscreen.peghole.com/ on June 6, 2014 at 8:17 AM · Report this
Fortunate 189
@169 : "Though, like you- I like to sit in public with a book. That to me would/ should be clear indication to others, that I'm occupied."

Since the discussion was about bars I am assuming you are talking about bringing a book to a bar.

I don't see why you would assume that if you are in a place like a bar. People don't typically read in a bar, so pretty much anything you do in a bar is often interpreted as something to enhance conversation or an opening to meet people. It might not always be the correct interpretation, but in that context it is not an unreasonable one.

People in bars often do things that would intentionally provide an opening to discussion. Be it a witty slogan on a t-shirt, some outlandish accessory, or something as simple as a book.

A book is a great conversation starter. "Hi, I was thinking of reading that book. What do you think of it?"

Unless you are in a place where it is clear that you just want to read, say a library, then you shouldn't be surprised if people see the display of something like a book as a conversation starter rather than an implied "do not disturb" sign.
Posted by Fortunate on June 6, 2014 at 10:22 AM · Report this
190
And by his "apology" he has no clue why people are upset.

http://www.fdpod.com/2014/06/an-apology-…
Posted by JimmyCap on June 6, 2014 at 12:38 PM · Report this
Alison Cummins 191
Fortunate,

It’s like reading or working in a café. Many people like just sitting in the wash of humanity without actively participating. A hint of someone’s intentions might be whether they are seated such that as many people as possible can easily see what they are reading, or so as to be as inconspicuous as possible.

The difference being that in a bar, the reader will probably become more receptive to interaction as their blood alcohol slowly rises. It’s possible the ostentatiously inconspicuous reader will change orientation after having gotten up to pee.
Posted by Alison Cummins http://cleanmyscreen.peghole.com/ on June 6, 2014 at 1:21 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 192
@189: "I don't see why you would assume that if you are in a place like a bar. People don't typically read in a bar, so pretty much anything you do in a bar is often interpreted as something to enhance conversation or an opening to meet people. It might not always be the correct interpretation, but in that context it is not an unreasonable one."

Assuming that women only do anything, INCLUDING READING for male attention is pretty shitty of you.
Posted by undead ayn rand on June 7, 2014 at 11:18 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 193
@190: Gah.

"My experience at IML was referenced solely as a jumping off point for this discussion."

It wasn't his experience at IML, it was his experience trying to get a friend to crash a private party related to IML.

I wonder what he told her ( that it was just another part of the event?)

I wonder how uncomfortable she would've been made by his deception had she gotten in? Like, is she supposed to just sip a glass of wine uncomfortably?
Posted by undead ayn rand on June 7, 2014 at 11:29 PM · Report this
Fortunate 194
@192 "Assuming that women only do anything, INCLUDING READING for male attention is pretty shitty of you."

I didn't say anything about what women do. What I said applies to anyone, not specifically women to men. That's your assumption. I just happened to be addressing a woman, but her gender was irrelevant to my comment.

What I am saying is that if you are doing something in an environment where it is very conspicuous and not the norm, no matter your gender or the gender of the others there, expecting that to be a clear sign that you don't want to be bothered is not realistic.

If a straight guy was at a straight sports bar while the Super Bowl was on TV and they were reading a book most likely someone would be curious and ask them what they were reading. It doesn't necessarily have to do with being hit on. It is just a behavior that actually attracts attention and invites questions.

Particularly that people generally go to bars to socialize, so assuming that people do things in an environment geared towards socialization as a means to facilitate socialization isn't unreasonable, or a shitty assumption.

But feel free to make your own assumptions all you want.

Posted by Fortunate on June 8, 2014 at 9:06 PM · Report this
Fortunate 195
@191 "Many people like just sitting in the wash of humanity without actively participating."

No doubt, but still, being surprised that someone might not assume that, but rather assume that you wouldn't be opposed to interaction when at a bar isn't realistic in my opinion.

There are all sorts of reasons to do all sorts of things, but when your actions are not the norm for the environment it shouldn't be surprising if people assume you are there for the same reason as the majority. If you aren't then a polite, "sorry, I just want to read" is all that is needed, but that someone would not jump to the confusion that you don't want to be bothered in that particular situation isn't unreasonable.
Posted by Fortunate on June 8, 2014 at 9:12 PM · Report this
196
Well said! I shudder to imagine the day when I run afoul of Dan Savage.... :)
Posted by CogInTheMachine on June 9, 2014 at 8:04 AM · Report this
197
@ 195, well I'm sure I can be a pretty ferocious chick- so if I'm sitting in a bar reading and having a drink/ and that's exactly what I want to do there (not using the book as a prop, waiting for someone to offer company).. Then it would be a brave fucker who approached me. A bar is a place to go to get a drink..
Posted by LavaGirl on June 12, 2014 at 9:26 PM · Report this
198
Dan, the relevant comparison is not you walking in to a lesbian sex party, it is you walking in to a straight-people-only sex party. Lots of girls get off watching men fuck men. The problem is that there are not enough bi orgies - at least, not where male bisexuality is as welcome as female (which is often taken for granted). I don't blame men for objecting to the presence of a woman at a party intended for gay male sex, only. But is it so crazy that a woman might want to attend a party where men have sex with men? If billed honestly, such a party would only attract men who enjoy women joining in with the men fucking men. Your rant makes it sound like no man in his right mind would ever have gay sex in the presence of a woman. I don't mean to imply that having gay safe spaces is somehow discriminating against bisexuals and their fans; it's not, no more than it is discriminating against women. I'm not defending Barry at all, just pointing out a separate issue: it is straight privilege that makes women or men demand entry to gay or lesbian orgies, but it is patriarchy that makes female bisexuality a treat for straight men and male bisexuality pervasively discouraged.

It is absolutely the right of gay men to have sex parties for gay men, only. Just sayin': where are the bi orgies??
Posted by Argentum on June 12, 2014 at 11:42 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 199
@198: "But is it so crazy that a woman might want to attend a party where men have sex with men?"

It's crazy to crash a private event where you would make people feel uncomfortable at. It's not a cocktail party.

"where are the bi orgies??"

Start your own splinter-party, M4M and all others welcome.
Posted by undead ayn rand on June 13, 2014 at 5:26 PM · Report this
200
@199: The offense here is not really that someone crashed a private event, thus making people uncomfortable. The offense is that a female intruded on a male-only sex party. The host was a man who wanted women nowhere near his sex - as is certainly his right. Most if not all the gay men in attendance were of the same mind - as is certainly their right. To suggest that gay men are sexist for not fucking women is obviously ludicrous.

I do plan on starting my own party, because gay male sex parties abound and there's no popular equivalent for bisexual men that welcome women. You can interpret this to mean that there's simply more gay men than bi men in the world. Or you can interpret this as a sign of institutionalized power differentials between various groups, including (but not limited to) straight men, bi men, gay men, gay women, bi women, and straight women. @1 brought up the Bechdel test, and I see a parallel; just as accusing any one particular film of failing the test completely misses the point, so does blaming any one party for not allowing women. NEITHER ARE EVIDENCE OF MISOGYNY. It is merely the overwhelming lack of films that pass the test (or of parties that celebrate MMF) that reveals a disturbing pattern. I am not smart enough to distill exactly what the root causes of these discrepancies are, but I do see the overall patterns as hints of a problem. The solution, I agree, IS to start the parties you want to attend. I'll be spreading those M4M and all others welcome events!
Posted by Argentum on June 14, 2014 at 12:39 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 201
200: Cool, positive energy towards that effort. I never found it crazy, just irrelevant in the context the writer was trying to harmfully inject it into.
Posted by undead ayn rand on June 16, 2014 at 5:39 PM · Report this

Add a comment

Advertisement
 

Want great deals and a chance to win tickets to the best shows in Seattle? Join The Stranger Presents email list!


All contents © Index Newspapers, LLC
1535 11th Ave (Third Floor), Seattle, WA 98122
Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Takedown Policy