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Friday, May 2, 2014

SL Letter of the Day: He's Single, Ladies

Posted by on Fri, May 2, 2014 at 4:05 PM

Offered without comment...

This is a response for TIRED in your column from the April 16-22 issue.

I recently got out of a relationship where I treated the woman much as your boyfriend treats you, TIRED. I wanted to know who she slept with. I wanted to know how they fucked her. I wanted to know if she liked it. I wanted to know why she gave herself to them. (For the record, as if it matters, she ended it, after I ended it a half dozen times and kept coming back. Yeah, the sex was that epic.)

She was my property, my sex slave, the recipient of my penetration. Yes I come from a long line of dominant males, originating all the way back from when mammals first evolved. I was born this way. No I am not insecure, I just require my woman to submit to me. The relationship will not work otherwise. Every couple has a leader and a follower, a dominant and a submissive. Some more subtly distinct than others. But always, one person takes the lead, if not at all times, at the very least a slight majority of the time. Without this leadership, conflict dominates as "equality" get sought on a constant basis.

Which is not to say I don't enjoy a challenge. So these roles I cast us in, they need not go spoken. Because my last girlfriend, she was a work in progress. And she did show signs of slowly coming over to the dark side. To my side. She resisted, and that turned me on even more. The liaison did not suffer from lack of passion. I got her wetter than ever.

So before you heed Savage's advice and resolve that this dude's just an "asshole," and before you even listen to the boyfriend who pouts and claims insecurity, consider that he may not have found himself yet. Consider some role play, an element I believe absolutely imperative to a healthy relationship. Take turns, but remember, in the end he's the boss. Because from what you wrote, that seems what he evidently desires.

Or you could just end it and find a sissy boy.

Look for a guy who doesn't give a shit about your past. Look for a guy who wants you to fuck him with a strap on—because anatomy matters, and the way men and women are designed, guys obviously deserve to be on top more, or play the active, assertive role more often. Not always, but more often. You may be happier with a guy who doesn't give a shit about your past and wants you to fuck him. But such a guy would not care about you enough to rush into a burning building to rescue your ass.

Wearing The Pants

Thanks for the second opinion, WTP. But TIRED? You might wanna consult this chart before you pick a guy based on WTP's burning building scenario.

 

Comments (134) RSS

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seatackled 1
LW sounds like a whiny bitch.
Posted by seatackled on May 2, 2014 at 4:17 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 2
Somewhere a future mail order bride awaits her destiny as this schmuck's partner.
Posted by Matt from Denver on May 2, 2014 at 4:18 PM · Report this
3
Um...letter from Mark Driscoll by any chance?
Posted by gnossos on May 2, 2014 at 4:30 PM · Report this
4
*shudder*
Thank you for running letters like this Dan. How they make me love my blue-collar, manly, tatooed but somehow not a controlling asshole husband!
Posted by chi_type on May 2, 2014 at 4:33 PM · Report this
5
"So these roles I cast us in, they need not go spoken."
" Without this leadership, conflict dominates as "equality" get sought on a constant basis."

You play the caveman part well, don't try for intellectual too. It's embarrassing.
Posted by portland scribe on May 2, 2014 at 4:35 PM · Report this
masque of owls 6
I just threw up a little.
Posted by masque of owls on May 2, 2014 at 4:40 PM · Report this
7
I actually guffawed when LW said "healthy relationship" like he knew what the fuck one looked like.
Posted by wxPDX on May 2, 2014 at 4:41 PM · Report this
8
Somewhere out there is a woman seeking an abuser just like this asshole.
Posted by Schweighsr on May 2, 2014 at 4:42 PM · Report this
9
Wow, what a charmer. Single, you say?
Posted by Jenkitty on May 2, 2014 at 4:44 PM · Report this
10
@3 A ha ha ha ha
Posted by Westside forever on May 2, 2014 at 4:51 PM · Report this
11
Aw. In the words of Patton Oswalt, this guy's gonna miss everything cool and die angry.
Posted by Amanda on May 2, 2014 at 4:51 PM · Report this
12
Has Mr Savage used the word "gentleman" at all this year? Even if he has, I'm sure the L:G ratio is excessively high.
Posted by vennominon on May 2, 2014 at 4:54 PM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 13
6, really? I thought it was hysterical. That's comedy gold right there. He's like the male version of Andrea Dworkin.

AD: "Sex is about domination & that's a bad thing!"

LW "NO! Sex is about domination & that's a good thing!"

Lather, rinse, repeat.
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on May 2, 2014 at 5:03 PM · Report this
Kevin_BGFH 14
Dear Mr. Pants,

I am just so, so shocked that you are single.

Sincerely,
Everyone
Posted by Kevin_BGFH http://biggayfrathouse.typepad.com/blog/ on May 2, 2014 at 5:03 PM · Report this
Pridge Wessea 15
He's probably the type of guy that would meet my man and I and then ask which one of us is the woman.

The idea that I can't be in charge and must submit because I'm "the recipient of my [husband's] penetration" is both asinine and amusing because in the same breath I'm calling him daddy, I'm also calling the shots. But anatomy and sissy boys or something.

Please, nobody procreate with this Neanderthal.
Posted by Pridge Wessea on May 2, 2014 at 5:17 PM · Report this
16
See, if this nimrod would just "openly state" these desires, he could have a perfectly good - maybe even hot - dominant/submissive relationship with a partner who would have actually signed up for what he has to offer. Are there women out there who would consciously choose submitting to His Alpha Male Authority? Sure there are.

But instead he takes out unsuspecting women who are in search of one of those tiresome "battles for equality" he so scorns. Why? Solely so he can be a dick about it, I guess.

See, this is why "consent" is such a magic word. If he were upfront about his little alpha male fantasy, he could be a thriving dominant (at least in theory). Without the disclosure, he's just a controlling, abusive asshole.
Posted by Pope Buck I on May 2, 2014 at 5:24 PM · Report this
Posted by Dr. Z on May 2, 2014 at 5:27 PM · Report this
Printer 18
Dude, your insecurity does not entitle you to be an asshole.
Posted by Printer on May 2, 2014 at 5:28 PM · Report this
19
15

TMI
Posted by everyone is thinking it on May 2, 2014 at 5:29 PM · Report this
20
Do people even use the word "sissy" anymore? I usually only hear that from crossdressers who are part of the scene.

Can you say overcompensation?
Posted by Marrena on May 2, 2014 at 5:31 PM · Report this
21
This letter reminds me of a scene from a movie (Hellboy?) where the guy kept going on and on and on about how he would do anything (anything!) for his lady friend but finally drew the line at doing his own dishes.

Talk is cheap. There's more to life than orgasms and burning buildings. And Little Lord Pantswetter here should strongly consider growing the fuck up as soon as his teeny tiny brain allows it.
Posted by stating the obvious on May 2, 2014 at 5:38 PM · Report this
22
@16 The problem is that he seems to get off on the abuse, not just the control. He actively wants a woman to resist, so that he can harm her. He wants to trick a woman into a relationship and then abuse her for as long as he can. There are good dominants out there, but he doesn't seem to be anything like one.

Also, the burning building scenario is hilarious. First off, there's no reason to think he'd be more likely to save someone because he likes being in charge. But if you look at some other common potential scenarios one might want in a mate, like somebody who will take good care of you while you're ill (something much more likely to come up), I wouldn't trust him at all. Even just short term issues, like I needed some serious, temporary care after a surgery, and I was really glad to be a in a relationship with a kind, considerate person who didn't think making sure I had food and drink and assistance with cleaning up and changing bandages and so forth was beneath him. Acts of very limited, quick heroism are easier for some types of people than acts of ongoing care, even though acts of ongoing care are more often needed to help people. Would you want to be sick and vulnerable and relying on this letter writer to make sure you were cared for? *shudders*
Posted by uncreative on May 2, 2014 at 5:39 PM · Report this
Absurdist1968 23
@8:

"Just the one, dear?"
Posted by Absurdist1968 on May 2, 2014 at 5:43 PM · Report this
McJulie 24
"because anatomy matters, and the way men and women are designed, guys obviously deserve to be on top more"

Deserve is a really strange choice of words here. "Let me be on top, baby, I deserve it! Just look at my penis!"

"But such a guy would not care about you enough to rush into a burning building to rescue your ass."

Controlling, misogynistic jerks often like to present themselves as the guy who is going to save you or protect you, but it's not true. Even if they do end up pulling you out of a burning building, it's only because they're the one who set the fire.
Posted by McJulie on May 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM · Report this
Fnarf 25
Why am I thinking that this "relationship" this guy was in actually lasted a couple of hours at most, and his "property"'s part in this conversation he is describing consisted solely of her thinking to herself "oh, god, this guy is such an douchebomb, what was I thinking, I'm never drinking cinnamon schnapps again" as she dressed rapidly and headed for the door?

And he's spent the subsequent part of his life composing this "philosophy" while modeling his fedora in the mirror.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on May 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM · Report this
Absurdist1968 26
I'd be checking the skull structure for Neanderthal morphology. Or maybe it's really dinosaur bones I need to be looking for with this one.

Are we sure that this letter wasn't lost in the snail mail for, like, 70 years or something?
Posted by Absurdist1968 on May 2, 2014 at 5:48 PM · Report this
mikethehammer 27
What was the significance of the chart? I'm assuming it's that southern hick redneck (i.e. "gentlemanly") types are perhaps actually less likely to do the rush into the burning building thing?

Though I really do wonder what accounts for those figures. High death rates seem to also correlate with highly rural populations, which would make sense, given a longer travel time for first responders to arrive. But it can't be that simple and there are plenty of relatively rural representatives in the lower death groups.

Anyone?
Posted by mikethehammer on May 2, 2014 at 5:52 PM · Report this
28
@26 Actually, there's some evidence that neanderthal were reasonably decent creatures. That we've been seriously underestimating them. Admittedly, I've done the 23andme thing, and I know that I do have neanderthal genetics (some small percentage), which is actually pretty common for lots of people. But basically, I think you are unfairly maligning neanderthals by comparing them to this asshole.
Posted by uncreative on May 2, 2014 at 5:52 PM · Report this
29
WTP is a typical inferiority complex sufferer: bravado, overcompensation, and a pathological liar. If he truly understood dominance, he would know the subs hold all the real power. Sadly, this guy is a load of domestic violence just waiting to happen to some poor, unfortunate, meek woman who will take his beatings and believe she deserves them. Sad.
Posted by Chaucer59 on May 2, 2014 at 5:53 PM · Report this
30
I got her wetter than ever.
And she was totally sincere about that. It's not like anyone tosses off "oh baby you're the best ever" in the heat of passion. (Or did you ask? Suddenly I think you might have asked.)

@22 Acts of very limited, quick heroism are easier for some types of people than acts of ongoing care.
This always struck me when that "I would throw myself on a grenade for yoooouuuu" song was on a few years back. Okay, you'd take a bullet, leap on a grenade, but how about the stuff that's more likely to actually come up? Will you come home on time, let me know if you'll be late, be a great dad? Or will you be chillin' until a grenade actually enters the picture?
Posted by IPJ on May 2, 2014 at 5:55 PM · Report this
31
@27 Yeah, I think it'd make more sense to pair that chart with cases of domestic violence and rates of women killed by their partners to make the point that you have a greater risk from a partner like that attacking you than you have a risk from fire. But that doesn't seem like the point that was being made, as you'd want both charts for that.
Posted by uncreative on May 2, 2014 at 5:55 PM · Report this
32
LW sounds like a real winner.

No wait, whiner. He sounds like a real whiner.

Sorry for the typo.
Posted by Hacksaw on May 2, 2014 at 5:57 PM · Report this
venomlash 33
Someone with actual power, with actual confidence, doesn't feel the need to flaunt it. You learn that in middle school; the toughest kids don't go around picking fights, and sure as shooting nobody goes picking fights with them.
Posted by venomlash on May 2, 2014 at 5:59 PM · Report this
SoUt 34
"They need not go spoken" that's the scariest bit of it all. The stuff nightmares are made of.
This might make me take a vow of chastity, but that's letting the terrorists win.
Posted by SoUt on May 2, 2014 at 6:17 PM · Report this
Reverse Polarity 35
Wow, Dan, you get way more interesting letters at work than I do.

Reading a letter like that makes me all the more glad that I'm gay.
Posted by Reverse Polarity on May 2, 2014 at 6:23 PM · Report this
36
OK, so we all know this guy has never actually had a girlfriend, right? That women leave really fast because they can't deal with his shit? That he spends all his time obsessing over what his girlfriend would be like if a girl would pay attention to him? That's the thing with MRA guys - they have no real experience with women and it's obvious.

A real alpha male doesn't care about his girlfriend's past because he doesn't feel threatened. And if a guy assumes missionary is somehow more "natural" than women on top because of some bs-science thing he just made up? He has very little sexual experience and has no idea what gets women off. Any straight guy on here will tell you.

Honestly, Dan just posted someone's fanfic.
Posted by statetheobvious on May 2, 2014 at 6:28 PM · Report this
37
The chart implies that the likelihood of dying in a fire is relatively low for Washingtonians so you'd probably be better off risking it than being with this guy. True for any state, really.

Personally, I'd rather die fairly quickly in a fire than live my life in misery with this guy. So yeah, even if the chances of death-by-fire were high...fire it is!
Posted by stating the obvious on May 2, 2014 at 6:29 PM · Report this
38
@36 While I agree that calling one sexual position more natural or superior is ridiculous, I don't like your implied bashing of man on top. Personally, I think that the "best" sexual position depends on a lot of specifics of the people involved. There's a lot of variation in size, angles, and desired type of stimulation that really makes it important to experiment and find the best position for specific people - and sometimes that is man on top. Not that I'd expect any couple to always use one position, but it's good to find a position that both partners tend to really enjoy and find very workable for your more day-to-day sex. And some day-to-day sex can be really good. Trying all sorts of positions can be interesting, but some more creative positions aren't actually that much fun beyond the novelty.

And really, a ton of factors play into best position. For example, woman on top can be quite unpleasant for the woman if she has knee problems. It's all a matter of working together to find something mutually pleasurable.
Posted by uncreative on May 2, 2014 at 6:39 PM · Report this
seatackled 39
The LW actually sounds a lot like the LA Clippers owner. Check out what he said about one of his previous mistresses, A. Castro, about halfway down the article.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/d…
Posted by seatackled on May 2, 2014 at 6:43 PM · Report this
milemarker 40
Translation: You talkin.. you takin to me? You talking to me?
Posted by milemarker on May 2, 2014 at 6:44 PM · Report this
41
I've read tons of Dan's letters received, many of them anatomically graphic, or deeply kinky. This one icks me out more than any of those. No woman should be GGG for Mr Pants.
Posted by originalcinner on May 2, 2014 at 6:47 PM · Report this
ferret 42
Wears the Pants may not be insecure, but he is an asshole.
Posted by ferret http://https://twitter.com/#!/okojo on May 2, 2014 at 6:53 PM · Report this
43
He should wear asbestos pants and die of cancer.
Posted by are we sure this isn't a Mars Hill member? on May 2, 2014 at 6:55 PM · Report this
44
Marrena @20 “Can you say overcompensation?”

Yep. I snorted when I read this part:
>> guys obviously deserve to be on top more, or play the active, assertive role more often. Not always, but more often >>

He doesn’t always want to be the oh-so-domly top. Sometimes (quite often, actually), he’d like to be pegged as the submissive he truly wants to be.
Posted by EricaP on May 2, 2014 at 7:14 PM · Report this
45
There's a fine line between a sissy boy and a domineering asshole. Yes Virginia (LW) it IS possible for a man to be respectful of his partners.
Posted by treehugger on May 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM · Report this
Sandiai 46
WTG, you must have a very SMALL PENIS*

Posted by Sandiai on May 2, 2014 at 7:37 PM · Report this
Sandiai 47
*Not that a small penis is a problem, when worn by the right person.
Posted by Sandiai on May 2, 2014 at 7:40 PM · Report this
48
I have NO beef with dom/sub relationships, and have been in several myself. Nor do I have a problem with people who prefer the man (or woman) to lead, or take on otherwise unequal roles through their own personal preferences. But a guy who DEMANDS his partner be submissive to him and uses psychological manipulation and dishonest head games to rob her of her self confidence? This is not a man by any definition of the word. This person is a grade-A misogynistic asshole who doesn't even deserve to have a partner. I hope that the women he dates see though him and drop him on his ass, and that he grows old and bitter alone.

Just so you know, LW, my partner is by no means a weak person. We function very well in our equal relationship, are very happy, and neither of us has to be a manipulative asshole to get what we want. It's called COMPROMISE. Oh, and FUCK YOU. :)
Posted by blondegrrl on May 2, 2014 at 8:08 PM · Report this
persimmon 49
I would never trust a man's assessment of his ex-girlfriend's arousal.
Posted by persimmon on May 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 50
Whatever. Some women are looking for exactly that guy. Others aren't.

If he's being honest, good. At least it's out there for women to know what they're getting into. Most people aren't quite as honest about whatever their thing is.

His kink isn't my kink but it's ok.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on May 2, 2014 at 8:17 PM · Report this
51
"I recently got out of a relationship where I treated the woman much as your boyfriend treats you, TIRED....For the record, as if it matters, she ended it, after I ended it a half dozen times and kept coming back. Yeah, the sex was that epic.)"

Translation: a half dozen times he threw a hyper-insecure hissy and stormed out on her, because she had some history which he just couldn't handle; and then he would come crawling back because anyone with an ounce of self-respect would look at him and laugh derisively. Eventually, even she got, er, "TIRED" of his bullshit.

Seriously, this guy gives "Pretty Little Hippie" a run for his money in terms of sheer entertainment value.
Posted by avast2006 on May 2, 2014 at 9:00 PM · Report this
52
@34: Yes, exactly. They need not go spoken" is code for "I pull a bunch of heinously twisted head games on her and see how much I can get away with."

He's entertaining as hell as a Letter Writer, but as real-life relationship material he sounds like the worst sort of sociopathic psycho. Though I notice that while he made much of his "last" girlfriend, there is no mention of a present one. He may be Wearing the pants, but I seriously doubt he is Getting Into anybody else's.
Posted by avast2006 on May 2, 2014 at 9:14 PM · Report this
Helenka (also a Canuck) 53
OMG
Actually, I was deprived of internet connectivity for several hours today. Suddenly I'm not feeling deprived.

So ... "anatomy matters", eh? Well, it's just too bad that he has no idea of how good a MAN can feel from being pegged - without turning into a "sissy boy".

I wonder if the only ones (I'm hoping very few) who fall for his evolutionary gobbledygook are very young - and that they run soon after.

[I just shuddered. I think that's a first from reading this column. Ugh.]
Posted by Helenka (also a Canuck) on May 2, 2014 at 9:18 PM · Report this
Dr. Z 54
@25: A fedora with sunglasses. Or perhaps a spiked helmet.
Posted by Dr. Z on May 2, 2014 at 9:44 PM · Report this
55
Well, chiming in late here.
BUT, next time any one piles in with crap about how men need to be More Confident? Remind them of this guy.
Posted by Polyphemus on May 2, 2014 at 9:52 PM · Report this
56
LW doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. I'm in a great marriage, and my husband gives zero fucks about who I fucked before we got together. What he cares about is who I fuck now, which is him. There isn't a "natural" leader. We each have areas of expertise and passion that we bring to the relationship. The engineer should deal with rewiring and all that it entails. The nurse deals with getting food in the house that will hasten our deaths. We both care a hell of a lot about what the other thinks, and we each have a veto card. If he told me not to do something, i wouldn't do it, and I could tell him the same.

LW should just go ahead and join up with some conservative christian circle now where all the women expect this kind of behavior.
Posted by MinnySota on May 2, 2014 at 10:10 PM · Report this
57
Aw shit, I meant delay our deaths. Fucking double shift.
Posted by MinnySota on May 2, 2014 at 10:10 PM · Report this
58
55 - He's not confident at all. He's massively insecure. That's why he plays out all these fantasy scenarios in his head instead of actually going out and living his life and meeting women. If he actually had girlfriends on a regular basis, and female friends and hell, even colleagues he spent any significant amount of time with, his notion of what women are like wouldn't be . . . this.
Posted by statetheobvious on May 2, 2014 at 10:18 PM · Report this
lilmonster206 59
Gross. Just...gross.
Posted by lilmonster206 on May 2, 2014 at 11:16 PM · Report this
60
I don't understand how giving a shit about who a woman has fucked in the past makes you manly.
Posted by MisterBadIdea on May 3, 2014 at 12:56 AM · Report this
lolorhone 61
Yes I come from a long line of dominant males, originating all the way back from when mammals first evolved.

And then those early mammals moved on to mating arrangements more suitable to not simply their survival, but their overall quality of life. You know, just like your ex-girlfriend.
Posted by lolorhone on May 3, 2014 at 1:03 AM · Report this
sissoucat 62
"But such a guy would not care about you enough to rush into a burning building to rescue your ass."

I'm a woman and I would rush in any burning building to rescue anybody's ass. Quite foolishly, obviously, since I don't have the muscle build to take both of us out to safety, but I. definitely. would. Last time there was a burning flat in my building, my then-boyfriend physically blocked me from going in with a silly lone bucket of water - and he had to argue that "the guy who woke us up, asking us by interphone to call the fire brigade, obviously was outside of the fire, and he would have mentioned if there was someone trapped inside, right" ?

See, that's the difference between me "not deserving of topping" frail woman and the self-proclaimed "dominant male" LW. The LW would take enough time to calculate whether he cares enough to risk his precious skin before he boisterously attempts to rescue his beloved (please stop me, awed bystanders, before I actually risk my life) while I would rush in, whoever's trapped inside.

LW is a self-aggrandizing sissy, as is often the case with guys overportraying machismo.
Posted by sissoucat on May 3, 2014 at 1:48 AM · Report this
sissoucat 63
@61 excellent.

Early mammals were a mice-like food staple for small dinosaurs. Here's to having sooo dominant-like ancestors !

And LW : men don't give birth. You physically come from a very long line of females, buddy. As for who exactly had reproductive sex with your foremothers, who knows for certain ? and who cares ?
Posted by sissoucat on May 3, 2014 at 2:24 AM · Report this
Aurora Erratic 64
I like the part where his "property" dumped his ass.
Posted by Aurora Erratic http://www.finemesspottery.com on May 3, 2014 at 3:20 AM · Report this
65
"Without this leadership, conflict dominates as "equality" get sought on a constant basis."

To state that this seeking of equality is a negative says everything. You can be in a great sub/dom relationship and still have equality. What this guy wants is dictatorship, and that's a vastly different thing. That's about the imposition of will, and the dismissal of another's reality is merely a complement to your own.

The reason I have loved reading Dan for years is that I have discovered a huge variety of human experiences that were unknown to me through the people that write to him.

In reading Dan throughout the years I always learn something from someone's letter - either through what they're experiencing or through Dan's answer - it just feels like there's a huge variety of experiences out there.

This is the first letter-writer I actually feel sorry for. This feels like dominance based on fear. Not dominance for fun, which looks and sounds really different than this.
Posted by skyweaver on May 3, 2014 at 7:16 AM · Report this
66
@64,
that was my favorite part too! haha ;)
I particularly loved how much emphasis the guy put on reassuring everyone (especially himself, I think) that she finally dumped him only after he had already dumped her repeatedly in the past, as if that meant anything. How secure, truly dominant and alpha male of him!
Posted by Blackwood on May 3, 2014 at 9:01 AM · Report this
67
Agree with sky weaver @65.
The variety of kinks and relationships I've read via Dan's column is amazing- but this guy?
Yikes.
Posted by aeros66 on May 3, 2014 at 9:03 AM · Report this
68
@65 Don't worry about it. Apparently the MRA 'tude is something it is possible to grow out of, since most of them are under the age of 25.
Posted by gnot on May 3, 2014 at 9:05 AM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 69
@58,
Perception of "confidence" is completely subjective.

A woman who loves an asshole who berates her will say she's attracted to his confidence. Her friends who like him will say he's confident. Her friends who hate him will say he's arrogant. If she dumps him, she'll change her tune and say he was arrogant.

Confidence. Arrogance. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference... if there even is a difference.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on May 3, 2014 at 9:43 AM · Report this
70
@69 You think this little letter exudes confidence?
Posted by gnot on May 3, 2014 at 10:21 AM · Report this
71
@35, as a gay man, haven't you witnessed controlling, abusive partners? I wonder if it happens less frequently with gay couples?
Posted by portland scribe on May 3, 2014 at 10:33 AM · Report this
72
@58--How do you know he doesn't have girlfriends on a regular basis? This is exactly the kind of guy I picture when women swoon about how they want a man who takes the lead and is dominant. And from the sheer number of colleagues/acquaintances I know who stick it out with a controlling/abusive man, there must be a lot more women than I suspected who are initially attracted to this kind of dynamic. I guess it's sexy until he dominates and leads in unpleasant directions. Then you can't really do anything about it because, well, he's dominant and takes the lead. Shocker.
Posted by LateBloomer on May 3, 2014 at 10:49 AM · Report this
Lissa 73
I hesitate to make assumptions about Mr. Pants' current romantic situation, but indeed some young women might mistake some one like him ( which is to say a raving asshole) for what they really might be looking for. Sometimes people mistake a bad person for a good Dom or Domme.
Urgutha, the behavior this letter writer describes isn't a kink or confidence that a disgruntled former lover might reframe as arrogance after the fact. What he describes is trying to control and dominate without consent. He said as much. It suits him to pretend that women want to be dominated so there is no need to even discuss it, and sees forcing them to comply with that paradigm as a fun challenge. He implies that breaking his partner to his will is what he enjoys.
Brrr indeed. Thank god she broke it off. It distresses me to think about the next vulnerable person he will target.
Posted by Lissa on May 3, 2014 at 12:19 PM · Report this
74
@73--So what distinguishes him from a "good" Dom? Is it the informed consent? He's pretty up front about his attitude to women, I can't imagine it would take very long or very much to find out what he's all about. And by choosing to be with him and have sex with him, that sounds a lot like consent to me.
Posted by LateBloomer on May 3, 2014 at 1:05 PM · Report this
75
@74 He's pretty up front about it in an anonymous letter on the internet. He states that he doesn't feel a need to say this to a partner, and that he enjoys "a challenge" and making people "slowly come over" to being his sex slave. That is what abusers do. A good dom would definitely have it be spoken, and there would also be a safeword. Plus, very, very few subs want 24/7 total power exchange. So, it'd be submission during scenes,but true equality a lot of the time. Or there would be negotiated areas of giving up power. A healthy dom/sub relationship discusses which ways the sub wants to be dominated and also checks which ways the sub is totally unwilling to be, and then doesn't do the latter. Amount of this he appears to be doing: zero.

He's an abuser. And he's trying to justify it.
Posted by uncreative on May 3, 2014 at 1:44 PM · Report this
76
Yes actually, it totally is the whole informed consent thing. Agreeing to fuck someone is not the same as consenting to be manipulated. He's upfront with his attitude towards women with Dan, but clearly not with actual living, breathing women. Also, it kinda sounds like women jump ship once they figure out what he's actually about.
Posted by carrot on May 3, 2014 at 1:54 PM · Report this
Sandiai 77
I wish uncreative would register. From @75:

"@74 He's pretty up front about it in an anonymous letter on the internet. He states that he doesn't feel a need to say this to a partner, and that he enjoys "a challenge" and making people "slowly come over" to being his sex slave. That is what abusers do. A good dom would definitely have it be spoken, and there would also be a safeword. Plus, very, very few subs want 24/7 total power exchange. So, it'd be submission during scenes,but true equality a lot of the time. Or there would be negotiated areas of giving up power. A healthy dom/sub relationship discusses which ways the sub wants to be dominated and also checks which ways the sub is totally unwilling to be, and then doesn't do the latter. Amount of this he appears to be doing: zero.

He's an abuser. And he's trying to justify it. "



Posted by Sandiai on May 3, 2014 at 3:39 PM · Report this
78
@77 I've thought about it, but I don't want yet another login on the internet. I have too many of those already. And yeah, I have a program to put my logins all behind a master password, but I don't like to have to log into that very often, so I prefer more day to day logins to be something I can just remember. I've made and forgotten my access to too many accounts already. And I don't think anything I have to say on Slog is so vital that if people don't see it it actually matters.
Posted by uncreative on May 3, 2014 at 3:52 PM · Report this
Roma 79
33/venomlash, I'm not so sure that "Someone with actual power, with actual confidence, doesn't feel the need to flaunt it." I think that's like saying "someone with wealth doesn't need to flaunt it. " Some people with wealth indeed don't need to flaunt it but others (plenty of others, I'd say) do. And it may be the same way with people who have power (wealth is, after all, a form of power.)

I could be wrong but it seems like, among animals, the alpha males need to constantly show how badass they are to other males. This doesn't mean they'll pick fights, but they do (I think) tend to express their dominance in other ways, such as vocalizations and physical displays.

You learn that in middle school; the toughest kids don't go around picking fights, and sure as shooting nobody goes picking fights with them.

Well, you learned one thing in your schools; I learned another. In my junior high school and high school -- aside from one big guy who was the "gentle giant" type -- it was the biggest and toughest kids who picked fights and bullied others.

Posted by Roma on May 3, 2014 at 3:53 PM · Report this
80
@75--Okay, but someone who negotiates areas of power, conscientiously checks in with what is okay and what is not okay, welcomes and respects a safeword and openly discusses which way the sub wants to be dominated [your words, my emphasis], does not sound like someone who is dominating to me. He/she sounds like a kind, kinky, balanced individual with interesting hobbies and good people skills who listens to and accommodates his/her partner. You want someone who's genuinely dominant, I believe LW is on the market.

I've known several people like the LW, and they make my skin crawl. But at least they are a known entity. Completely baffling to me are those who are attracted to them, and apparently there's no shortage. In the isolated rural area I grew up in, sprinkled amongst my idealistic outdoorsy neighbors, was a man who raped his daughters, a guy who beat the bejesus out of his wife, another his kids, a guy who threatened me with a loaded shotgun for getting too close to his livestock (I was 9), and a really rough but good-looking Harley driver with anger issues who raised a sociopath (now behind bars). They all had a similar vibe to the LW--no self-doubt, entitled, dominant. And they all had committed wives who made a conscious decision to wed and stay with them. Why? Were they attracted to dominant types? (Well--Harley guy's wife, a lovely, warm woman, got out after many years, but she has to keep her whereabouts a secret.)

Those guys are what I think of when someone says, "I like a guy who's a real man, who's confident, who takes the lead." I mean, if you do (generic you), that's fine, but be aware that that means you're asking for someone like the LW. And in expressing those tastes, you are supporting the personal philosophies of people like the LW. There's a ton of them out there, and I suspect a ton more who feel like the LW but don't have the balls to openly admit it.

What you describe, uncreative, is something different. That's a real man who at bottom understands negotiation, and who may pretend to take the lead for short bursts to everyone's mutual satisfaction. Totally different. And definitely not dominant.

And in passing, don't you find it uncomfortable that someone like the LW can be so easily mistaken for an actual, caring Dom? That's not a ringing endorsement of "good" Doms.
More...
Posted by LateBloomer on May 3, 2014 at 4:01 PM · Report this
81
@80 I was answering the question what is the difference between the letter writer and a good dom. And you are right, they are completely different. As to your question about being easily mistaken, I think that is a matter of lack of education. And I think very few people actually do want a dominant partner in the form that you describe or the letter writer is. I think many people are kinky and want a good dom (at least some of the time) and do not know that there are ways to get that in a healthy, balanced relationship. It's not exactly taught and few people have models for healthy BDSM relationships. So, many people think they want a dominant type, when actually, they want a good dom. But they don't even have a mental model of what a good dom would be. So assholes like the LW get into relationships. And people who get involved with them get stuck trying to decide how much the bits they enjoy are worth compared to the horrors they do not. And, of course, once deep into such a relationship, it is dangerous to get out. As you mention, one such woman has to keep her whereabouts a secret. Many women are killed for trying to leave an abusive relationship. It's truly a shame we don't teach people what options exist when they are young, so that they can tell the difference between a good dom and an asshole.
Posted by uncreative on May 3, 2014 at 4:25 PM · Report this
Roma 82
80/LateBloomer, as you noted, there are women who are attracted to very dominant/controlling men. My guess is that most of them have issues of some kind, but I wonder if all of them do. People are so different in what they want, in what turns them on, that it seems quite plausible to me that some women who are "normal", who don't have issues, are attracted to very dominant/controlling men.
Posted by Roma on May 3, 2014 at 4:30 PM · Report this
Bonefish 83
50: There’s kinky, and then there’s creepy. Here’s a guide.

If you just like to be dominant in the bedroom, you’re kinky. However, if you:

1) Use a bunch of pseudo-scientific evo-psych bullshit to paint your dominance as the “natural” way things are universally supposed to work between the genders,

2) Believe that men who don’t share your sexual proclivities are “sissies,”

3) Believe that anyone who strives for equality in their relationship is doing it “wrong,”

4) See any need to get genuinely pissed at a partner for the mere fact that they were with other people BEFORE THEY EVER MET YOU,

5) Devote considerable amounts of time and mental gymnastics to convincing yourself that everything, up to and including getting dumped, is somehow a sign of your own sexual superiority to others,

6) Manipulate people into getting your way regardless of their desires (!!!),

Then you are not kinky, but creepy. There’s D/S play, and then there’s genuinely believing that other people are your property. Do not confuse the two.
Posted by Bonefish http://5bmisc.blogspot.com/ on May 3, 2014 at 6:26 PM · Report this
Lissa 84
@80: you are expressing your interpretation of a word, which does not coincide with the accepted usage in the BDSM community, or frankly the world at large. The people you used as examples are criminals, abusers, and sociopaths, not "real men, who take the lead". They are bad people, and bad people still get laid, but being a bad person isn't what makes a Dom or Domme. Being a dominant personality doesn't mean you are an asshole. Being sexually attracted to a dom/sub dynamic does not mean you are tacitly supporting the personal philosophies of criminals, abusers or sociopathies, nor does it mean you want to sign up for domestic violence.
And may I offer my sympathy for what experienced growing up. I'm glad you got out of there.
Posted by Lissa on May 3, 2014 at 6:50 PM · Report this
85
Women are not attracted to being mistreated or abused. They might be attracted to a person who mistreats or abuses them, but it is not the mistreatment or abuse the woman wants or enjoys.
Posted by Gamebird on May 3, 2014 at 7:46 PM · Report this
86
@83--thankyou. This lw is an idiot, but most comments call him on it. I'm glad you also call out his dipshit (wrongheaded) evolutionary justification. I didn't have the energy.
Posted by jdc4 on May 3, 2014 at 7:49 PM · Report this
87
@80 - adding to Lissa's comment: the men you describe as "dominant" are actually just domineering. Guys who beat and otherwise abuse their wives and kids aren't typically dominant men. They're insecure bullies and assholes, always careful to avoid altercations with anyone larger or more skilled than themselves. You're right, though: there are always women around weak and insecure enough to find that type attractive. Most will spend their adult lives as punching bags.
Posted by Chaucer59 on May 3, 2014 at 9:45 PM · Report this
88
@84--"Being sexually attracted to a dom/sub dynamic does not mean...you want to sign up for domestic violence." No, but if you are attracted to dominant personalities, then you are naive if you think that you are not more likely to be signing up for domestic violence. It isn't the kind, gentle personalities that are walloping their wives.

BDSM aside, by my definition a dominant personality is one that wants to be in control of situations--and in a relationship, to be in control of the decisions and the dynamic, both domestic and sexual, of that relationship. If this is not the definition of the world at large, let me know.

People who are comfortable allowing themselves the freedom to act that way are often the same people who feel entitled to be in control, not just of situations, but of others as well. They are not great at negotiating in good faith, or thinking of others' needs, or respecting boundaries, or setting reasonable limits on themselves. So when people say, "I am attracted to dominant types," I hear, "I am attracted to selfish, controlling assholes who might or might not be dangerous."

Can you give me an example of a dominant guy who does not act like an asshole when he doesn't get what he wants? Because I can offer lots of ones who are abusive. And I maintain that downplaying or romanticizing or otherwise giving the thumbs up to dominant behaviour, as I define it anyway, is just fuel to the fire for guys like LW. He didn't develop his theories in a vacuum.
Posted by LateBloomer on May 3, 2014 at 10:01 PM · Report this
sirkowski 89
>tips fedora
Posted by sirkowski http://www.missdynamite.com on May 3, 2014 at 10:33 PM · Report this
Gou Tongzhi 90
"guys obviously deserve to be on top more, "

BWAH HA ha ha ha ha

I like to be dominant myself, in the sheets, though also considerate of all my girlfriend's needs, and an egalitarian in the streets, of course. And to a true dominant, woman on top can be oh so super hot.

This guy sounds like he's pretty shitty at sex.
Posted by Gou Tongzhi on May 3, 2014 at 11:07 PM · Report this
91
@88 This is a dangerously naive view of yours. Only one style of abuse is based on someone acting dominant. Another style of abuse is based on someone acting weak - too weak to control themselves, too easily hurt. So the abused person has to be strong and walk on eggshells and always do exactly what they want, because the poor, frailer partner can't handle it. This can even involve the abuser being physically abusive or destructive to property, but they can't help themselves. Of course they say they don't mean it, but...

Going for a guy who doesn't act dominant doesn't mean avoiding abuse - or necessarily improving your odds. What you need to do is learn to detect red flags. And remember, guys like this letter writer don't tell women the dynamic they want, because he likes "the challenge" of forcing it. We have very little idea what he says or how he acts while courting. Odds are decent that he's charming, many abusers are. Especially in public. Although he seems a bit less good at hiding his abusive tendencies and being charming, so he's probably less good at trapping people in abuse, which is handy.

But telling people avoiding dominant personality types is the secret to avoiding abuse is ridiculous. And yes, I do know dominant men who are not abusive. They channel their sexual kinks into healthy, consensual sexual or BDSM activities. Someone who is very well-educated in consent is likely someone less likely to abuse you, but that is no guarantee either. You really always need to watch for potential red flags, because abusers don't come with black hats and t-shirts that say, "I am an abuser".
Posted by uncreative on May 3, 2014 at 11:16 PM · Report this
92
" I wanted to know who she slept with. I wanted to know how they fucked her. I wanted to know if she liked it."

Are we certain he's not getting off on that part too?
Posted by the other one on May 4, 2014 at 6:51 AM · Report this
93
@88 Some folks who appear to others to be very sweet, loving men are actually, in private, abusive assholes. My pop is a big, dominant type guy, and he's never laid a hand on my mother, and doesn't pitch fits when disappointed. Everyone's experience colors their perceptions, but that doesn't mean one's perceptions are always accurate.
Posted by clashfan on May 4, 2014 at 7:32 AM · Report this
94
LW was writing satire, parody, making fun of such a character (himself) as he describes. The guy was a joke. Just silly.
Posted by Not my real name or yours on May 4, 2014 at 9:09 AM · Report this
95
I can't tell if WTP is talking about his cat or his Princess Leia action figure.
Posted by Chase on May 4, 2014 at 11:01 AM · Report this
Lissa 96
@88: Off the top of my head I can give you four. Three men and one woman.

A commercial real estate developer and as alpha a male as you will ever meet. Has been a rally racer, sail boat captain, and is currently training for the Olympics in sailing. He's also a pilot and built an amazing island retreat pretty much just him and his tiny little wife. He is the epitome of a take charge, get things done guy. And he is not an asshole.

A flight test engineer, former DJ, and hard core sadist. 6'2", and the guy you want with you in a mosh pit. Likes to sew buttons in pretty patterns down a gal's back, will beat you bloody with a car antenna while whispering sweet nothings in your ear. And he is not an asshole.

6'4" former dealer and rock/punk show security, now devoted husband and father. A force of nature on the dance floor or in a fight, and to see him with a baby his hip would make a gal's uterus do a back flip. And he is not an asshole.

And finally, a bouncer who will throw you on the hood of your car and make you call her mommy, who despite tumors in her head and crazy home life worked multiple jobs, went to school, and took care of her mom. And she is not an asshole.
Posted by Lissa on May 4, 2014 at 2:24 PM · Report this
Roma 97
[he] will beat you bloody with a car antenna while whispering sweet nothings in your ear.

I sure wouldn't get off on whipping a woman until she bleeds, even if she wanted it, but to each their own. It's lovely that people like this find each other.
Posted by Roma on May 4, 2014 at 3:41 PM · Report this
98
Ok, breaking it down:

"I recently got out of...

--Was relieved of my duties by my commander/gf

"...a relationship where I treated the woman much as your boyfriend treats you, TIRED. I wanted to know who she slept with. I wanted to know how they fucked her. I wanted to know if she liked it. I wanted to know why she gave herself to them."

--I'm a cuck, but too cowardly to do it in real life. I really love the humiliation though of being able to relive how much enjoyment she got out of fucking other men.
--I'm using her experience level as a sexual scorecard so that I know if she's with me, that I'm at least better than all these other guys. I know it's not true but I cling to it, because there's no other visible sign of her enjoyment.

" (For the record, as if it matters, she ended it, after I ended it a half dozen times and kept coming back. Yeah, the sex was that epic.)"

--For me anyway. I asked her over and over again if she liked it too as I am deeply insecure, and she said yes, so it must be true.
--I ended it many times but neglected to tell her that. The sex existed, which is rare for me.

"She was my property, my sex slave, the recipient of my penetration."

--She showed up.

"Yes I come from a long line of dominant males, originating all the way back from when mammals first evolved. I was born this way."

--You were also prenatally effectively female and the only reason you now have balls is that your mother's womb flushed some testosterone at you in key moments. Otherwise those puppies would be on the inside.
--I doubt your "dad" had a paternity test performed. And his "dad", and his "dad". So, basically you don't know.
--My ancestors before that were total flamers though.

" No I am not insecure, I just require my woman to submit to me."

--I don't tell her this of course. But because she sometimes likes missionary or doggy that she's totes submitting to me.

"The relationship will not work otherwise. Every couple has a leader and a follower, a dominant and a submissive. Some more subtly distinct than others."

--In fact, to many, our relationship looked like she was in charge. It was that subtle.

"But always, one person takes the lead, if not at all times, at the very least a slight majority of the time."

--I suggested TexMex once and she said yes.

"Without this leadership, conflict dominates as "equality" get sought on a constant basis."

--So that part where I ended it like six times? That's where I clearly was demonstrating the effortless dominant mastery of an unbroken line of Doms since the dinosaurs.

"Which is not to say I don't enjoy a challenge."

-- I do like being her bitch.

"So these roles I cast us in, they need not go spoken. "

--Because I'm not a total idiot. They'd all leave. Or laugh.

"Because my last girlfriend, she was a work in progress. And she did show signs of slowly coming over to the dark side. To my side. She resisted, and that turned me on even more."

--She would eventually give in to my relentless nagging. But I preferred it when she ignored me completely. I found it hot.

"The liaison did not suffer from lack of passion. I got her wetter than ever."

--I know because I watch videos she's taken with exes all the time. Why? No reason, no reason.
--She has to keep telling me that the whole time or I can't keep it up.

"So before you heed Savage's advice and resolve that this dude's just an "asshole," and before you even listen to the boyfriend who pouts and claims insecurity, consider that he may not have found himself yet."

--I sure as shit haven't.

"Consider some role play, an element I believe absolutely imperative to a healthy relationship."

--Turns out this is the only way anyone will allow me to "take charge" of anything.

"Take turns, but remember, in the end he's the boss. Because from what you wrote, that seems what he evidently desires."

---But don't speak it, don't say it. Cause then she'll leave.

"Or you could just end it and find a sissy boy."

--Like all those other guys who were better in bed than me.

"Look for a guy who doesn't give a shit about your past. Look for a guy who wants you to fuck him with a strap on—because anatomy matters, and the way men and women are designed, guys obviously deserve to be on top more, or play the active, assertive role more often. Not always, but more often."

---EricaP got this one. He's a bottom. He's just too timid to actually ask to be pegged.

" You may be happier with a guy who doesn't give a shit about your past and wants you to fuck him."

--Unlike me. I insist we discuss all your former lovers and the explicit details before each and every sexual encounter we engage in. No reason.

" But such a guy would not care about you enough to rush into a burning building to rescue your ass."

--Unless you tell him to. Because as the girl you would be in charge.

"Wearing The Pants"

--"Of Loneliness".
More...
Posted by gnot on May 4, 2014 at 3:48 PM · Report this
Roma 99
87/Chaucer59: Guys who beat and otherwise abuse their wives and kids aren't typically dominant men. They're insecure bullies and assholes, always careful to avoid altercations with anyone larger or more skilled than themselves.

I'd be interested in seeing research that supports that assertion. I don't buy this notion that abusive people or bullies are always (or mostly) insecure people (see my post at 79 about my experience in school) although I would certainly agree that they're assholes. I think it may very well be that, in many cases, the bully is a dominant personality who gets off on pushing other people around.

For example, here's the first two parargraph from a WSJ article about alpha males:

One evening a week, a group of CEOs meets in a Manhattan psychiatrist's office and engages in an ancient ritual. Ostensibly, it is a support group. Inevitably, it becomes a battle for dominance.

"Whenever you put alpha males together, the most aggressive will overpower the others," says T. Byram Karasu, the veteran psychiatrist who has run the sessions for the past 23 years. The fighting is subtle, but it's vicious. "Even giving advice is geared toward lowering the others' self-esteem. Those at the lower end of the group come away doubting themselves, and their testosterone falls. They tell me they can't have sex for three or four days afterward."


It's like I mentioned about animals (also at 79): it seems like, among animals, the alpha males need to constantly show how badass they are to other males.
Posted by Roma on May 4, 2014 at 4:01 PM · Report this
Roma 100
P.S. from the same article:

Beta males, by contrast, are nice guys, peacemakers and team players. They make good husbands, fathers and friends. Some experts say they tend to be happier than alphas, since they aren't driven by the need to be on top.
Posted by Roma on May 4, 2014 at 4:05 PM · Report this
101
He is the kind of asshole who would insist his girlfriend is a virgin--checked by a doctor--when he starts with her, just to not have to admit he can't FIND a girl who will be with him.
Posted by BG on May 4, 2014 at 5:49 PM · Report this
XiaoGui17 102
@88 "It isn't the kind, gentle personalities that are walloping their wives."

WRONG! The abusive types typically don't walk right up and act domineering when you meet. They present as Prince Charming, White Knight, Nice Guy at first. They are hopeless romantics. But they snap when the script they have in their head of rescuing their damsel in distress doesn't play out as planned.

It's not that abusers consider themselves "dominant" or take-charge. It's that they're throwing a hissy fit like a child who didn't get his way, except a three-year-old lacks the physical strength to break a person's nose.

All that crapola you claim to have heard from the battered women about how they "like a man who takes charge" is retroactive justification, not what actually attracted them to the man in the first place. I've also heard excuses like, "He's so much sweeter when he's sober," or "The poor dear lost control, he can't help it!" Things of that nature.

@91 & @93 NAILED IT!
Posted by XiaoGui17 on May 4, 2014 at 6:19 PM · Report this
AFinch 103
Glad to hear she got away! This was an epic letter Dan...
Posted by AFinch on May 4, 2014 at 6:32 PM · Report this
Posted by Chicle Atomico on May 4, 2014 at 6:55 PM · Report this
105
@54, I'm thinking a trilby, not a fedora.
Posted by Marrena on May 4, 2014 at 7:09 PM · Report this
106
Too good to languish in obscurity @98:

Ok, breaking it down:

"I recently got out of...

--Was relieved of my duties by my commander/gf

"...a relationship where I treated the woman much as your boyfriend treats you, TIRED. I wanted to know who she slept with. I wanted to know how they fucked her. I wanted to know if she liked it. I wanted to know why she gave herself to them."

--I'm a cuck, but too cowardly to do it in real life. I really love the humiliation though of being able to relive how much enjoyment she got out of fucking other men.
--I'm using her experience level as a sexual scorecard so that I know if she's with me, that I'm at least better than all these other guys. I know it's not true but I cling to it, because there's no other visible sign of her enjoyment.

" (For the record, as if it matters, she ended it, after I ended it a half dozen times and kept coming back. Yeah, the sex was that epic.)"

--For me anyway. I asked her over and over again if she liked it too as I am deeply insecure, and she said yes, so it must be true.
--I ended it many times but neglected to tell her that. The sex existed, which is rare for me.

"She was my property, my sex slave, the recipient of my penetration."

--She showed up.

"Yes I come from a long line of dominant males, originating all the way back from when mammals first evolved. I was born this way."

--You were also prenatally effectively female and the only reason you now have balls is that your mother's womb flushed some testosterone at you in key moments. Otherwise those puppies would be on the inside.
--I doubt your "dad" had a paternity test performed. And his "dad", and his "dad". So, basically you don't know.
--My ancestors before that were total flamers though.

" No I am not insecure, I just require my woman to submit to me."

--I don't tell her this of course. But because she sometimes likes missionary or doggy that she's totes submitting to me.

"The relationship will not work otherwise. Every couple has a leader and a follower, a dominant and a submissive. Some more subtly distinct than others."

--In fact, to many, our relationship looked like she was in charge. It was that subtle.

"But always, one person takes the lead, if not at all times, at the very least a slight majority of the time."

--I suggested TexMex once and she said yes.

"Without this leadership, conflict dominates as "equality" get sought on a constant basis."

--So that part where I ended it like six times? That's where I clearly was demonstrating the effortless dominant mastery of an unbroken line of Doms since the dinosaurs.

"Which is not to say I don't enjoy a challenge."

-- I do like being her bitch.

"So these roles I cast us in, they need not go spoken. "

--Because I'm not a total idiot. They'd all leave. Or laugh.

"Because my last girlfriend, she was a work in progress. And she did show signs of slowly coming over to the dark side. To my side. She resisted, and that turned me on even more."

--She would eventually give in to my relentless nagging. But I preferred it when she ignored me completely. I found it hot.

"The liaison did not suffer from lack of passion. I got her wetter than ever."

--I know because I watch videos she's taken with exes all the time. Why? No reason, no reason.
--She has to keep telling me that the whole time or I can't keep it up.

"So before you heed Savage's advice and resolve that this dude's just an "asshole," and before you even listen to the boyfriend who pouts and claims insecurity, consider that he may not have found himself yet."

--I sure as shit haven't.

"Consider some role play, an element I believe absolutely imperative to a healthy relationship."

--Turns out this is the only way anyone will allow me to "take charge" of anything.

"Take turns, but remember, in the end he's the boss. Because from what you wrote, that seems what he evidently desires."

---But don't speak it, don't say it. Cause then she'll leave.

"Or you could just end it and find a sissy boy."

--Like all those other guys who were better in bed than me.

"Look for a guy who doesn't give a shit about your past. Look for a guy who wants you to fuck him with a strap on—because anatomy matters, and the way men and women are designed, guys obviously deserve to be on top more, or play the active, assertive role more often. Not always, but more often."

---EricaP got this one. He's a bottom. He's just too timid to actually ask to be pegged.

" You may be happier with a guy who doesn't give a shit about your past and wants you to fuck him."

--Unlike me. I insist we discuss all your former lovers and the explicit details before each and every sexual encounter we engage in. No reason.

" But such a guy would not care about you enough to rush into a burning building to rescue your ass."

--Unless you tell him to. Because as the girl you would be in charge.

"Wearing The Pants"

--"Of Loneliness".

Posted by gnot on May 4, 2014 at 3:48 PM
More...
Posted by Chase on May 4, 2014 at 7:15 PM · Report this
107
Following on 91 and 93, a dominant type outside the bedroom (e.g. titan of industry) who wants to sub in the bedroom is an unsurprising dynamic. What makes it erotic is that it's forbidden in their outside-the-bedroom life. (I imagine there are some meek people who would be turned on by being dominant in the bedroom, same forbidden aspect, but being meek they have a harder time arranging this and have to make due with porn.)

Agree with those getting a cuckoldry vibe off the whole "tell me about the past guys and exactly what they did to you and exactly how it made you feel" thing.

And as 102 says, a guy who sweeps you off your feet and is ridiculously charming and romantic may well be an abuser. Guys who present as assholes are going to have a much harder time luring someone in.
Posted by IPJ on May 4, 2014 at 7:27 PM · Report this
108
@72: This is exactly the kind of guy I picture when women swoon about how they want a man who takes the lead and is dominant.

Based on my reading of romance novels in years past, I'm going to disagree with this. The "dominant" type in a romance novel is someone who is secure and confident and has translated this into some level of worldly success. (Usually financial, but may take the form of respected expert in his field.) He does not tell the heroine that he gets to be on top because of evo psych babble or try to make her his sex slave and get turned on by her resistance to this; he does make her feel desired and cherished and safe (in multiple ways). I think most romances hit at "a desirable mate desires me, values me, and wants to protect me."

Posted by IPJ on May 4, 2014 at 7:38 PM · Report this
109
I think when he says he made her wetter than ever he means "she peed on me".

I'm imagining WTP reading this comment thread, weeping and furiously beating off over and over again.
Posted by Chase on May 4, 2014 at 7:57 PM · Report this
ShifterCat 110
Heh. Mr. "Since mammals first evolved" clearly has no idea of the wide range of mammalian sexual behaviour.

Even if he amended it to, "since humans first evolved", it wouldn't help. Despite people using the idea of the caveman to justify male dominance, the truth is that we have almost no clues about what paleolithic humans actually believed.
Posted by ShifterCat on May 4, 2014 at 9:01 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 111
@83,
Meh. One person's kink is another person's creep.

Assuming this guy isn't lying and has had girlfriends who liked his dominant whatever, then apparently some people disagree with your assessment of what's kinky and what's creepy.

I think this guy is a loser, but then again, there are boatloads of guys I thought were losers who also happened to fuck boatloads of women who just couldn't get enough of that "confidence."

This guy's got his thing, and I completely disagree with it, but if it makes some women happy, then whatev..
Posted by Urgutha Forka on May 4, 2014 at 9:57 PM · Report this
112
@98,
amazing.
Posted by Blackwood on May 5, 2014 at 5:41 AM · Report this
113
Chicle Atomico @104 - Exactly right -- thanks!

LateBloomer, I'm not sure what people mean when they say someone is dominant, but I think it's a value-neutral description of someone who might be either domineering or self-confident.

Most people I enjoy spending time with have a balance of self-confidence & insecurities which allows them to take charge at times (but with a willingness to take advice), and follow others at times (but with a willingness to offer suggestions).

My own D/s relationship is built on my own kink to submit (despite my loud personality) and my husband's kink to be in charge (despite his awareness that he's not infallible).

So I think it's a mistake to look at whether someone presents as a take-charge kind of person and decide that they're clearly an asshole. If a take-charge person can take suggestions without getting defensive, then they're generally not an asshole. In my experience.
Posted by EricaP on May 5, 2014 at 9:51 AM · Report this
114
This letter so perfectly refutes the writer's own viewpoint that you really have to wonder whether it is sincere or satire.
Posted by brent.b on May 5, 2014 at 12:45 PM · Report this
115
@75/78 I agree that you ought you register! *YOU* may not think that what you wrote is that essential, but I guarantee you that someone out there still needed to read it.
Posted by sugar7898 on May 5, 2014 at 1:06 PM · Report this
116
@85 I would like to cross-stitch your comment onto a lovely decorative pillow, if doing so would not reinforce gender stereotypes.
Posted by sugar7898 on May 5, 2014 at 1:16 PM · Report this
117
A person can be self-confident, a risk-taker, strong, a strong personality, comfortable with having authority, driven, etc, without needing to be dominant. Someone who is dominant, as I understand it, needs others to dominate. Hence the cognate words. Their sense of self-worth stems from being in charge of others, of feeling above others.

Someone with the need to dominate is distinct from someone who is comfortable with authority and being in charge, as a necessary means to an end, but who knows when and how to limit themselves, and to listen, and to negotiate. I suspect that's what people who read IPJ's romance novels @108 are looking for. Yet somehow, in looking for that type of person, they end up falling for someone like the LW. Why is that?

My personal prejudice is that it's because people focus too much or too misguidedly on the dominance part, which in some cases, yes, is a by-product of social success, and an indicator of the positive attributes I listed above. But in many other cases it's just a psychological need, possibly stemming from insecurity, possibly not, doesn't really matter.

Long and the short is, if you are drawn to dominant personalities, then it should come as no surprise if you find yourself in a relationship that involves being dominated. If you like a guy who takes charge of others, don't be surprised if he tries to take charge of you. Kind of self-evident, no? It's not inevitable, but it's certainly much more likely than with other personality types.

(I realize the abusers amongst us don't wear t-shirts, but there's certain clues. If someone needs to dominate a conversation, doesn't listen well, takes up a room, talks about themselves a lot, self-aggrandizes, is exaggeratedly deferential to authority figures, exaggeratedly chivalrous, they're likely full of shit. A truly self-confident, successful, self-controlled individual doesn't need to talk about himself a lot, and brings out the best in others.)

I just realized--the whole issue is complicated by those who feel the need to be dominated in the bedroom (and only in the bedroom), which dynamic is a closed book to me. Do they let their sexual desires influence what they find attractive socially? IDK.
More...
Posted by LateBloomer on May 5, 2014 at 2:10 PM · Report this
118
@LIssa--thanks for the character sketches. I realize I've set up a No True Dominant argument where, if someone is capable of channelling their instincts, and knows how to listen and negotiate, then they are not what I think of as dominant. They have removed the arrogance, or callousness, I consider the calling card of being dominant.

Just curious, though, the hardcore sadist--did he leave a lot of wreckage behind until he learned how to channel his needs into consensual relationships?
Posted by LateBloomer on May 5, 2014 at 2:21 PM · Report this
119
I'm not Lissa, but I'll say that I've never seen a vicious, out-of-control sadist tamed into a sadist with appropriate boundaries. If someone enjoys hurting people against their will, they generally stay that way.

Instead, the awesome hardcore sadists I know are people with appropriate boundaries, who only learned to release their sadism after meeting people who loved to be hurt.
Posted by EricaP on May 5, 2014 at 3:41 PM · Report this
120
@119--Phew.
Posted by LateBloomer on May 5, 2014 at 4:00 PM · Report this
Lissa 121
@118: I agree with Erica, that has been my experience as well. The gentleman in question entered the scene in his early 20s and to the best of my knowledge has been very popular for lo these many years since, for the reasons she has stated. I know and am friends with a number of his partners past and present, including his first wife and they all give him very high marks both in and out of bed. Which is one of the many reasons I married him. ;)
Posted by Lissa on May 5, 2014 at 8:53 PM · Report this
Corylea 122
This guy's so over-the-top that I wonder if this is a troll, not someone who actually believes what he wrote to Dan. If he IS a troll, he was well fed for his efforts. :-)
Posted by Corylea http://corylea.com/ on May 5, 2014 at 10:49 PM · Report this
123
It looks to me as if this guy is a troll from the 'Traitor to the Mens' thread over on John Scalzi's Whatever. They get very upset by everyone there laughing at them and travel off to find someplace where grown men can roam free.

The whole alpha male concept has taken a hammering from the scientists, which upsets them even more :)
Posted by dice on May 6, 2014 at 5:19 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 124
@123: Exactly, they're self-parody, but entirely sincere in that they think people will believe them. After all, all the guys on Reddit totally believed their stories.
Posted by undead ayn rand on May 6, 2014 at 7:40 AM · Report this
125
@121--Ha! Well played--and congratulations.
Posted by LateBloomer on May 6, 2014 at 8:46 AM · Report this
126
I skip all the registered comments (so boooring), and read only the unregistered ones.
Posted by get a life on May 6, 2014 at 9:54 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 127
@51: I'm glad I'm not the only one who might ship Pretty Little Hippy/This Guy, and I'm not even into fanfic.
Posted by Eudaemonic on May 7, 2014 at 6:02 AM · Report this
sissoucat 128
@102 "WRONG! The abusive types typically don't walk right up and act domineering when you meet. They present as Prince Charming, White Knight, Nice Guy at first."

That's my experience as well.
The shitty ex-husband would never pick a fight with anyone dominant, male or female.

But tell me behind closed doors that "cheating on me had just saved his life" while I pondered, crying, what divorcing that asshole would entail for our poor kids' lives (the third one still a toddler), oh yeah, that he could manage. Christmas night 2006.
Posted by sissoucat on May 9, 2014 at 2:05 AM · Report this
129
@128--Charming. Glad you don't have to put up with that shit anymore.

Uncreative had a great post explaining how abuse can come from a position of weakness. And fair enough. But for the record, I never said abusers are exclusively dominant types. I said, basically, dominant types are more likely to want to dominate, so don't be surprised if that's something they do. I was also pointing out that there are women--some have posted on Slog in the past--who are attracted to that kind of guy (of which the LW is an extreme example) for reasons which continue to baffle me. And not necessarily because they are hoodwinked into thinking he's a nice guy: it seems that the dominance itself is the turn-on.

Again, bafflement. To me, it is an unpleasant quality. I have an instant dislike of someone who needs to take control of a room, or jokingly put a guy in his place, or flat-out intimidate others. I can't imagine being attracted to someone who behaves like that, and I struggle to respect those who are.

But to each their own. I have learned to accept that my tastes are not universal. And I seem to associate different qualities with the word "dominant" than others do.
Posted by LateBloomer on May 9, 2014 at 10:56 AM · Report this
sissoucat 130
@LateBloomer Thanks for your kind words.

I myself have never been attracted to dominant/domineering males - allowing for varied meanings of the word "dominant". But I know (not very well) women who seem to find that a domineering/arrogant attitude is a valuable and sexy attribute by itself - as long as it's others and not themselves who are the targets of such animosity.

I think EricaP and Lissa take "dominant" for its sexual meaning - the "take-charge" person, without necesary being the "I'm the most important" person that "dominant" evokes for me and seemingly you as well.
Posted by sissoucat on May 9, 2014 at 1:30 PM · Report this
sissoucat 131
For people who don't know how abusers evolve :

The ex-husband was a totally domineering "I'm the most important" person in the long run, but before I got unavoidably entangled with him (pregnant), I always was "such a different, amazing person" in his own words, and he was "so lucky".

After we became parents my stock steadily declined through the years, while he grew more and more grandiloquent and enamored with himself, to the point of claiming "superhuman abilities" (I kid you not).

Until I got to meet the real him, when he thought he had no further use of me "that bag of constant depression", because there was a mistress who'd marry him on the spot (she didn't) : a man unbelievably callous, cruel, only interested in others as a way to further himself, no morals whatsoever, whose only gimmick is to mimick and to lavishly praise people, to get on their good side.
Posted by sissoucat on May 9, 2014 at 1:34 PM · Report this
132
What a depressing letter. I feel bad for this guy. I hope he loves porn because he will never have mutually satisfying sex with his attitude. Sadz.

There seems to be a general confusion about authority here. Good authority is working with others to achieve a larger interest independent of your own in exchange for some payment. Bad or corrupt authority is acting in your own interest in a position of authority (unless it's agreed). Good authority can't be claimed, it's an agreement. Only assholes claim authority because.. duh.. "Respect my authoritai." Authority ideally comes from expertise. He sounds like a guy who has learned a few ways to communicate that he has expertise in the bedroom, without any actual experience of satisfying a woman. I'm sorry for him but some people are not naturally sensual, and it seems WTP's forefathers were not gifted this way. If he is looking for regular good sex, he'd have more success by searching for a teacher and self educating (porn doesn't count). This focus on how to fake expertise with a generally dominant attitude, or force a woman to stay with him anyway... It seems his parents raised him wrong. I hope he stops being a sheep before he ends up in jail.

I also hope that his ex starts demanding a demonstration of clit expertise before respecting the next guy's authoritai. And I think I can speak for most women that we want a guy who can blow our minds in bed. But some guys are all talk and promises, and some women think that's the best that they can expect, or are surprised by the level of delusion and live in hope.
Posted by Philophile on May 9, 2014 at 3:53 PM · Report this
sissoucat 133
@Philophile

Young women certainly stay with bad-in-bed men, since they've never experienced any better.

The insistence on female virginity of many patriarchal religions is just an insurance against males having to acquire any expertise in bed matters. Never fuck such conservative/religious males : they're lazy.
Posted by sissoucat on May 11, 2014 at 12:50 PM · Report this
134
"I come from a long line of dominant males, originating all the way back from when mammals first evolved"

TWP, take your biotruths and cram them up your arse. After all, you might find you like it.
Posted by Kitchengoblin74 on May 12, 2014 at 9:29 PM · Report this

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