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Wednesday, January 22, 2014

SL Letter of the Day: That Kind of Guy

Posted by on Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 2:05 PM

Originally posted on October 19, 2011

I broke up with a girl who wasn't hot enough for me. I tried my whole life to not be that kind of guy. I treated her carelessly because she wasn't that important to me. I was self-indulgent and rude and disrespectful, and it made her cry. She's perfectly attractive, but not in an obvious way, which is what I want. I don't want to abandon her, because she is a pillar of support that I truly need. She's the first girl I ever fucked, and I'm the first guy she ever dated. She is 28 and I am 24. We have known each other for one year. Is it a bad idea to maintain a relationship with her while I pursue other women? Would it be better to end all contact? What is a man who is pathologically worried about being an asshole to do?

Must Remain Anonymous

My response after the jump...

So... you were a virgin at age 23 when you met this woman.


I'm guessing you're not all that conventionally attractive yourself, MRA. You're attractive, of course, just not in a conventional sense. You're attractive in the same way that, say, your ex-girlfriend is attractive. Perfectly attractive. Just not obviously attractive.

Not hot.

But you feel entitled to a woman who is attractive in obvious ways. You want a woman who's objectively hot. And you may get one. There are lots of obviously hot women out there with guys who aren't anywhere near as hot. Helps if the dude's a billionaire. But a word of warning: If you had to wait until age 23 for a woman to come along who was willing to fuck you and put up with your shit, MRA, the wait for a hot woman who's willing to fuck you and put up with your shit could be a long one. But you can live in hope.

What you can't live in, MRA, is an alternate reality where you haven't been an asshole. You emotionally abused this woman for failing to be something she wasn't when you met her (and something that you're not, either): conventionally, objectively, and obviously attractive. You weren't obligated to stay with her forever just because she was kind enough to fuck you and put up with your shit for a while, of course, and you're free to follow your dreams and pursue hot women. But you were obligated to treat this woman with kindness and consideration. Instead, you went out of your way to act like an asshole.

Under the circumstances, MRA, I think it's best to end all contact. It's nice that you're willing to keep her in your life in order to get the support you need, all the while providing her with jack shit in return—no, wait. That's just more assholery. Cut her from your life. It's the only decent thing to do.

It may be the only decent thing you've ever done for her.


Comments (37) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
Also get yourself some therapy:

>>I don't want to abandon her, because... I truly need [her]. >>

Posted by EricaP on January 22, 2014 at 2:18 PM · Report this
You've been that kind of guy now, your acronym is perfect. I hope she got you out of her life and found someone not a dick to be with.
Posted by Hanoumatoi on January 22, 2014 at 2:25 PM · Report this
I'm thinking from the acronym and situation this has to be a joke letter. Spot on advice though. Plenty of real people have strung along their SOs and could use a slap in the face through writing.
Posted by Impulse on January 22, 2014 at 2:43 PM · Report this
Chelydra_serpentina 4
@4 - I've heard Dan sometimes makes up the pseudonyms and thus the resulting clever acronyms. It's possible this is one of those times. Just Dan's little way of calling the guy an asshole one more time.
Posted by Chelydra_serpentina on January 22, 2014 at 2:55 PM · Report this
Oh honey, you can stop worrying about being an asshole, sounds like you have it down.
Posted by bpinsea on January 22, 2014 at 3:00 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 6
What an oddly written, thoroughly strange letter. It barely makes any sense and has no point or real question attached.

I'd say it's fake, but it's almost too weird to be fake.

Maybe the writer has Asperger's or was drunk when he wrote it or something?
Posted by Urgutha Forka on January 22, 2014 at 3:03 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 7
A member of the league of extraordinary "nice guys" of Ok Cupid, apparently.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 22, 2014 at 3:07 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 8
@6: To an extent I agree, but when "your" head is up your own ass that far, everything comes out as the narrative you think you're trying to express about yourself, and everyone around you can tell how untrue it is. It sounds like a story because it is a story.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 22, 2014 at 3:12 PM · Report this
The day has finally come in which a Savage Love letter is repeated and I've read it before. I guess I'm an old timer now. :(
Posted by Jackmm1301 on January 22, 2014 at 4:12 PM · Report this
While I do think the guy should cut her loose and not try to have his cake and eat it too (so to speak) - he also should realize that it's rare that one's first sexual partner becomes one's lifelong partner.... I hope they both enjoyed the experience, but I bet both of them need to do a lot more sampling before settling down anyway... So you aren't abandoning her; you're breaking up with her like so many men break up with so many women (and v.v.) for so many very different reasons and, given this is your first sexual relationship, this is not unexpected.

Treat her well as you leave; karma does come back to bite (even though I don't really believe in karma, it does seem to happen)
Posted by abrock_ca on January 22, 2014 at 5:15 PM · Report this
Dear LW please, please, come crawling back to this woman once you're realized that millionaire bikini models don't want to date you. It'll probably do her a world of good to see you wallowing in the mess you've made. And please try to learn and grow from this.
Posted by msanonymous on January 22, 2014 at 6:10 PM · Report this
AFinch 12
I think this is asshole week on SLOTTD.
Posted by AFinch on January 22, 2014 at 7:30 PM · Report this
This must be THE most incredibly FAKE Savage Love letter in years. No 24 year old str8 guy has even 1/10th this amount of self awareness or humility. I am 100% certain this was written by a bitter woman who was dumped for a younger, hotter (likely thinner) model. Honestly Dan, the advice is sound but publishing such and obvious fake letter is beneath you.
Posted by montex on January 22, 2014 at 7:49 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 14
@13: "No 24 year old str8 guy has even 1/10th this amount of self awareness or humility"

Lol, what self-awareness or humility?

This is exactly what they'd sound like.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 22, 2014 at 8:16 PM · Report this
@7, flashbacks. It's worse than 'Nam. "I TRIED to be nice to your ugly fat ass, but you rejected m(ed note: y balding, short, fat, old, lying, bland, uninventive, sheltered, cloistered)...I'm 'amazing' (quotes added). HUFF. HUFFHUFFHUFF." Oh, I'm terribly sorry that, while I am packing a few (and I do mean *a few*) extra pounds (which all my pictures show clearly), I wasn't wooed by the lies you tried to tell. Best departure ever: "can I drive you home?" "Oh, no, it's out of your way and I'll be just fine." "WELL, FINE...I DIDN'T WANT TO FUCK YOUR FAT ASS ANYWAY." Wow, dude, I tried to let you down gently...but since you're going to make a big deal over it "hey, {friend}, yeah, my date was a total douche. Drinks in 10?"
Posted by Ms. D on January 22, 2014 at 10:12 PM · Report this
What. A. Putz.

I can't even read letters like that. They make me sad for both parties. I hope they left each other alone, learned a lot from their crappy experience, and are each doing much better today.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on January 22, 2014 at 11:05 PM · Report this
Relax. It's fake.
Posted by montex on January 22, 2014 at 11:08 PM · Report this
I have to agree with #14. There is no self awareness or humility, and no reason to think this letter is fake any more than most letters.

The real question is, which LW is a bigger piece of shit: this guy or the guy who wants to dump the wife who just had a kid for being fat? I'm going to say this guy by a nose. If anyone else wants to join in the discussion, I'd be happy to elaborate.
Posted by DrVanNostrand on January 23, 2014 at 2:17 AM · Report this
AFinch 19
@2 - I had to google that acronym, and whoa! yes, perfect.
Posted by AFinch on January 23, 2014 at 5:10 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 20
@18: I'll take the other side of that; at least this guy hasn't reproduced yet and left someone with a kid to take care of.

...I'm confident in that prediction, since after rejecting the one woman who would have sex with him, I'm guessing he hasn't found many other applicants for the role.

Both LWs should have received answers in the form of a prepaid card good for one free vasectomy at the nearest available location. That would've been more useful than advice.
Posted by Eudaemonic on January 23, 2014 at 5:35 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 21
@18: It depends on whether this person is seriously pathological and having constructed a firm "I can't be an asshole, therefore..." persona or whether they can be reached with enough badgering and "YOU ARE ACTING LIKE AN ASSHOLE" from a friend or stranger.

Yeah, the guy who's sick of his wife post-child is "worse", but might be more reachable. Might.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 23, 2014 at 7:45 AM · Report this
I think I dated this guy.
Posted by snoozy on January 23, 2014 at 8:19 AM · Report this
I'm guessing you're not all that conventionally attractive yourself, MRA

Yes.... or the guy isn't wrong that he could have a girlfriend who isn't just hot but who has the looks others find hot more than his former older girlfriend. For one thing, the ex didn't date until 27 right... that is even older than 23.

It could be his looks that kept him from getting laid or, you know, something else like his personality. Dans bet is that he is just too much of an asshole, but read the letter again:
- He dates a girl who doesn't look like a model, didn't date until 27 and then courts a 5 year younger guy she is close with and who depends on her as a friend... She doesn't sound like a happy camper to begin with. All we know is he made her cry once, possibly during the breakup, and feels terrible about it.
- He dumped someone because she was pretty but not in a way obvious to others.. after a year of fucking and dating just fine

Its great you not once made any partner cry Dan, but most of us either have done a lot worse than this guy or are not being honest with ourselfs. We are human beings with human flaws like wanted to fuck hot people more. The defining characteristic that sets apart the true assholes that that they are completely oblivious to even the possibility that they could be an asshole. Assholes always think they are awesome, otherwise we would tolerate a lot more of the mistakes we made ourself as well.

Obviously this letter doesn't fit that. Almost all of the letter is self-criticism and self-doubt.

Ask yourself this: What sort of, pardon me, social moron, apologizes for being perpetually worried about being a quote “asshole”? Only someone who doesn't yet have the social skills to realize people read over that while mentally replacing each and ever word with “BS, BS, BS, BS....” Someone who innocently and sincerely believes apologies about future behavior (staying friends or not) get taken seriously.

Why would someone who has issues (aspergers has been suggested) and finally gets laid at 23, needs the friendship and likes the girls looks and the sex just fine for a year worry about whether other people see he finally dates that skinny blond (all other attributes undiscussed) girl whose hots are obvious to everyone?

He didn't get laid until 23 while spending the, what ten years, he trying to get laid unaware of his bad looks. Ugly 18 year old guys who overconfidently overestimate their looks (IE assholes) get laid just fine. Helps if its not obviously pretty chicks who don't date until 27.

This guy staid away from people until twentysomething and was suddenly no longer that awkward 14 year boy. It really gets way better for guys in their twenties. He still doesn't go out of his way to hook up with the hot girls he wants, but there is this older someone who is “important” to him, a friend. She courts him (maybe she could not keep her hands to herself?), they end up in bed and a relationship. He knows for a year long he can do better. He knew that before they met. Only now he has a pillar of support, a friend and has seen first hand girls will fuck the guy who was an especially awkward teen after all. Now he dares to finally try courting a girl he chose himself. Someone who isn't his only older trusted friend who took advantage of his problems to solve her 27 and never dated problem.

His problem is he has to break up with his only friend, he is awkward, she isn't pretty so it they are a “us against the shallow world” couple. He doesn't want to be that guy he really really want to stay friends. He needs her pillar of support, that why he goes out of his way to write a letter asking Dan for permission.

The guy isn't ugly, he is shy (the APA calls that aspergers) and wants a obviously hot girl on his side to prove others and himself he finally can get laid. Maybe its a shy sensitive (reading the letter again, self deprecating, maybe even funny) 24 year old. Maybe he is good looking maybe he is average looking either way he is clearly smart and sensitive enough not to misunderstand whether he can do better.

He would stay with his one and only true friend but he knows what people (assholes) say behind his back about him having an older less than obviously pretty girlfriend. This reason this gossip hurts is because he is still insecure. A true asshole would not even know people gossip about him. A true asshole might even assume the prettiness of his girlfriend would be obvious to all because she is after all his girlfriend...

This is why the self confessed asshole didn't even bring up the obvious option of cheating which is the asshole move that would have “solved” his close average friend + want hot sex problem the asshole way. The reason he is breaking up, cant unequivocally say whether he finds her pretty and feels about the relationship that he treated her carelely and took her for granted is because he loves her intensely as a friend but never really had strong feelings for her. He is a guy who stays with someone he doesn't truly love for a year because of fear and worry about her feelings.

There is nothing there to say anything about his looks. Girls, especially American ones tend to be way less likely to throw themselves at hot guy than vice versa. If an American guy is hot but doesn't dare ask girls out he can stay single for quite some time. American girls will do a lot with a guy they barely met, but they will never be the first to ask for a phonenumber because that would make them a slut.

And can we get a ruling on the older woman who was a friend, a pillar of support to a really young sensitive guy. The one who instead of supporting a younger friend with some sort of issue... fucks the guy. The guy is a horny virgin to be sure and find her looks are okay but he didn't find her hot and he really needed the pillar of support from his older friend. If you reverse the genders on that doesn't the older guy with problems getting a date sound like an asshole with no regard about potentially violating the campfire rule by fucking the dependent younger virgin friend with issues?

My advice would be to be careful calling sensitive anonymous letter writers with emotional issues ugly assholes who nobody will love unless they are millionaires. Especially if their history is a pretty good fit for aspergers.

My advice to the letter writer is that relationships end and try to get to a place where both can move on.

Instead of your friend being your pillar of support offer to be hers. Consider telling her you know you were an asshole to break up, understand if she doesn't want to talk to now or ever. Obviously you have to make crystal clear you will never fuck her again and she needs to move on. But also tell her how much her support meant to you and how her friendship pulled you trough.... whatever, the letter doesn't say an I don't want to assume. Tell her to hold on to your number and that she can call day and night and that you will always be there for her if she needs a friend but not a lover/fuckbuddy. If she was your pillar of support you owe that to her.

It could be you ended up in the fucked up spot where a critical friendship ended up with fucking because you are an asshole and were thinking with your dick, it could also be plain bad luck and the universes idea of a joke.
Posted by wasd on January 23, 2014 at 9:34 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 24
@23: "Instead of your friend being your pillar of support offer to be hers. Consider telling her you know you were an asshole to break up, understand if she doesn't want to talk to now or ever."

Mostly cool advice, but potentially problematic with the suggestion that he be "support" and a person to "talk to", as he's already codependently entangled and not really the most reliable dude to offer actual support. Though, even if he was, he should probably back off anyway.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 25
23 wins the thread, but 24's correction is right on: He can't really provide any kind of "support," since either he's an asshole who's been using her, she's an asshole who's been using him, or--by far the most likely--they're two very damaged people who've been enabling each other for too long already. That's not the best position for mutual support.
Posted by Eudaemonic on January 23, 2014 at 10:30 AM · Report this
AFinch 26
@23 - it's a nice spin; I suppose my quibble is: Aspberger's people aren't 'assholes' in the traditional sense that they intentionally set out to be callous but the mangled social cues and responses often amount to the same thing.

To echo @25, @24 is right: you can't 'be friends' and a 'pillar of support' after you break up with a romantic partner, at least not right away, and being oblivious to the pain you might cause them by having an ongoing presence in their life is pretty much selfish and assholish, whether intended or not.

Besides, the whole letter reeks of dumper's regret after a shallow move. I'm don't this person is oblivious or lacking any self-awareness - I think he feels guilty for something he's perfectly aware he did. Seems to me that part of growing up is looking back and realizing what a shit you once were as an adolescent.
Posted by AFinch on January 23, 2014 at 12:10 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 27
@26: And I've fell prey to that as well, everyone who brags about how they're friends with "all their exes", I thought it was cool and a good idea, oh gods no. It makes me wonder how many of those people who brag about that ever had something serious, ever had something fail horribly, and why they would still keep that attitude around them. Distance, certainly right after, is good. Staying the hell away is for the best, and better for both in the long run. (Especially if their attitudes are as derpy as the OP.)
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 23, 2014 at 2:48 PM · Report this
I can't believe people are buying into #23's bullshit. I don't know how "I treated her carelessly because she wasn't that important to me." and "I don't want to abandon her, because she is a pillar of support that I truly need." add up to anything but selfishness and assholery. The wild speculation about the guy's mental health and a predatory older woman is utterly ridiculous, and in no way supported by the letter written by this ASSHOLE... unless you're playing some game where you fabricate crazy details to every letter to flip the narrative for kicks.
Posted by DrVanNostrand on January 23, 2014 at 4:15 PM · Report this
I think the reason I think this guy is worse is that he actually seems entertain the idea of staying with her because he "needs her", while simultaneously pursuing other women (and presumably continuing to treat her like shit). I can't imagine anything more selfish and shredding for his girlfriend. The other guy seems like a more conventional level of asshole, but the whole infant child thing definitely kicks it up a notch.
Posted by DrVanNostrand on January 23, 2014 at 4:22 PM · Report this
This just sucks all around and I hope everyone involved is doing better now. If anything though he should have just broken up with her sooner instead of emotionally abusing her over an extended amount of time. Especially, if she was as important a friend as he describes.
Posted by Really Now... on January 23, 2014 at 6:24 PM · Report this
AFinch 31
@27 - I was speaking from personal experiences of which I remain ashamed when I recall them; not often, no use in beating myself up, just trying to avoiding repeats. I've been on both sides of it.

Totally agree with you about being suspect of "friends with all my exes" - the last one like that I was involved with I later came to find out there was an ongoing very unhealthy (to my relationship) entanglement. I am on OK terms with my ex-wife (long term relationship) but it took a good five years of cold war animosity to get past the bad feelings. We would never have bothered to get past them except for the length of the relationship and the fact that there were parts of the relationship that worked very well. We have both been supportive of each other (if not pillars) at different difficult junctures since then, but it still seems weird to me and we are not daily besties.

I guess the thing is getting over the fact that you can't go through life flawlessly - you will hurt someone, probably badly, no matter what a good, moral human being you are. I think of the whole "never harm another living thing" and accidentally killing a bug, bacteria, whatever. It's just a part of life. Recognize when you're going to do it and try to be as humane about it as you can.

"I'm don't this" - a fine construct, if I do say so myself. Cheers!
Posted by AFinch on January 23, 2014 at 6:34 PM · Report this
@11 There really isn't a round two after something like that.
Posted by Really Now... on January 23, 2014 at 6:41 PM · Report this
God what a dickhead. I really hope he's still jerkin it to this girl while she's moved on to much greener pastures.
Posted by jujubee80 on January 23, 2014 at 9:26 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 34
@28: "I can't believe people are buying into #23's bullshit."

Eesh, you're right. There's so much weirdness. Honestly, I sort of drone out when an unregistered has paragraphs and I just quoted something that seems pertinent.

The weird references to "American girls", ugh.


"My advice would be to be careful calling sensitive anonymous letter writers with emotional issues ugly assholes who nobody will love unless they are millionaires. Especially if their history is a pretty good fit for aspergers."

Sorry, I know a few people with asperger syndrome. They have asperger syndrome. They are not assholes as this guy is (due to immaturity or whatever reasoning.)

Cut the whiny MRA act. Having emotional issues doesn't keep you from being called out when you're being douchey, you're never going to learn anything from fucking up unless you can get called out on it by others, and by yourself. "I can't be an asshole" is an incredibly harmful and regressive attitude. Everyone has the potential, the best way to keep yourself from being one is to accept the possibility that when things go bad, not everything you're doing could be in the other party's favor.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 23, 2014 at 11:53 PM · Report this
This guy probably doesn't have aspergers, but he's fucked up enough that he almost certainly has a disorder of SOME sort. That's not an excuse for him to demand support from somebody he says is not important to him, and it's not a reason to be nice to him either.
Posted by TheLastComment on January 24, 2014 at 10:15 AM · Report this
Eudaemonic 36
@29: I can't imagine anything more selfish and shredding for his girlfriend.

You've got a pretty feeble imagination.
Posted by Eudaemonic on January 24, 2014 at 11:33 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 37
@35: Eh, it doesn't have to be pathological, but there's not really enough info to know if it is. There are more inconsiderate dicks than there are sociopaths or persons with NPD, so why not speak to them first? The latter wouldn't listen to you anyway. They don't even listen to their therapists.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 24, 2014 at 2:08 PM · Report this

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