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Monday, January 13, 2014

Did You Convert to Christianity This Weekend Because of That Asshole Tweet Sent Out By That Asshole Mark Driscoll?

Posted by on Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 8:14 AM

The joke is on you:

For those who are sad that the year-end news quizzes are past, here’s one to start 2014: If you have joined a church that preaches a Tulip theology, does that mean a) the pastor bakes flowers into the communion wafers, b) the pastor believes that flowers that rise again every spring symbolize the resurrection, or c) the pastor is a Calvinist?

As an increasing number of Christians know, the answer is “c.” The acronym summarizes John Calvin’s so-called doctrines of grace, with their emphasis on sinfulness and predestination. The T is for man’s Total Depravity. The U is for Unconditional Election, which means that God has already decided who will be saved, without regard to any condition in them, or anything they can do to earn their salvation.... Increasing numbers of preachers and professors teach the views of the 16th-century French reformer. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller—megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors—are all Calvinist.

Driscoll is a nobody who wants to tell everybody about Somebody—Jesus!—who already knows who's going to heaven and who's going to hell. There's literally nothing you can do on earth that will change your fate. You're either going to heaven or you're not. Period. The End. Amen. Accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior won't save you, good works won't save you, sitting in a Ballard warehouse that was "consecrated" by a sexist asshole and listening to him tell you that you're doing marriage, sex, gender roles, etc., etc., etc., all wrong—that won't save you either. If Driscoll is right about Calvinism and Unconditional Election, then spending your Sunday afternoons in a church, any church, is a huge waste of your time.

Driscoll also believes—no, he knows! he's a nobody who knows!—that most Christians are going to hell. Always check the fine print: the wrong kinds of Christians go to hell with all the non-Christians, of course, but even most of the Christians wasting their time in Discroll's own churches are going to hell. Only a tiny, select number of folks—already chosen by our loving father—go to heaven. The rest are condemned—by that same loving father—to an eternity in hell. Praise the lord!


Comments (64) RSS

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MacCrocodile 1
It seems most modern Calvinists drop the absolute predestination but keep the feeling bad about yourself all the time.
Posted by MacCrocodile on January 13, 2014 at 8:18 AM · Report this
seatackled 2
I don't follow Twitter, so I'll have to hope there's another opportunity to be saved.
Posted by seatackled on January 13, 2014 at 8:33 AM · Report this
That's absolutely the problem with that part of Calvinism. If it doesn't make any difference, why do anything differently? I prefer the more common NALT Christian idea of trying to live out Jesus's message of love for everyone and helping your fellow humans without fixating on who's going to Hell (or frankly, whether Hell even exists).
Posted by NotYourStrawMan on January 13, 2014 at 8:38 AM · Report this
oh danny.

let go of all the bitterness and anger.

why do you scour the culture for the biggest asshole losers then rant and rave about them?

find something that brings you happiness and embrace something positive, not forever spewing about the FUCKING ASSHOLES...

otherwise you are letting the fucking assholes win.

frankly everyone needs to develop their own relationship with 'god'.

it is pointless to constantly critique the beliefs of others and their gods. people are entitled to believe whatever they wish.

what is YOUR relationship with 'god'.

tell slog about that.
Posted by should Slog pray for you? on January 13, 2014 at 8:38 AM · Report this
and since driscoll is a nobody why do you waste your own and slogs time with him?

if you chase after every asshole nobody you will get nowhere.
Posted by relax. hell isn't really all that bad, we hear.... on January 13, 2014 at 8:40 AM · Report this
It's my understanding of predestination that accepting Jesus as your personal savior does save your soul. It's just that God knows in advance who is going to do that and who isn't because He is omnipotent and knows everything.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 13, 2014 at 8:42 AM · Report this
It's much, much easier to live my life not worrying about this "god" character. After all, there are earthly things that I can interact with and find fulfillment with. WTF are all these people doing waiting around for death?
Posted by treehugger on January 13, 2014 at 8:43 AM · Report this
Wait, I shouldn't have said "easier." It just makes more sense to live life for the here and now. It's easier to sit around waiting for death.
Posted by treehugger on January 13, 2014 at 8:44 AM · Report this
monkey 9
I think Billy Graham said it best... "Whenever any group claims that they, and they alone, have all the truth about God, then an alarm bell should go off in your heart and mind."
Posted by monkey on January 13, 2014 at 8:53 AM · Report this
Three things I don't give a fuck about: Mark Driscol, Twitter, Hell.
Posted by giffy on January 13, 2014 at 9:02 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 11
When speaking of Hell the (fictitious) place, it should be capitalized. (That's for Mark Driscoll, they guy who ostensibly believes in Hell, not for Dan.)
Posted by Matt from Denver on January 13, 2014 at 9:04 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 12
Also, I think @ 6 is right. But predestination is one aspect of Calvinism that Calvinists tend to forget or at least ignore. I think a lot of their neurotic behaviors came from the inner doubt - that they really are saved - that results from such a belief.
Posted by Matt from Denver on January 13, 2014 at 9:07 AM · Report this
ScrawnyKayaker 13
Mark Driscol is a redneck. Get going on a meme a la "spreading santorum" to label his shit-hole organization Mars Hill Redneck Church, and it might actually hit him in his recruiting efforts.

Clueless newbies should be on notice that if you go to his church, we'll know you're a redneck idiot. Shame the fucking membership of Mars Hill Redneck Church.
Posted by ScrawnyKayaker on January 13, 2014 at 9:12 AM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 14
"Go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company."

-Mark Twain
Posted by Urgutha Forka on January 13, 2014 at 9:13 AM · Report this
Max Solomon 15
the kingdom of god is spread out before you, and you do not see it.
Posted by Max Solomon on January 13, 2014 at 9:15 AM · Report this
Cato the Younger Younger 16
I was double penetrated this weekend: does that mean I'm saved or damned?

Those are the questions Mark should focus on.
Posted by Cato the Younger Younger on January 13, 2014 at 9:25 AM · Report this
Pope Peabrain 17
If going to imaginary heaven meant eternity with Christians, I choose imaginary hell. But the truth is, Christianity uses fear to manipulate stupid people.
Posted by Pope Peabrain on January 13, 2014 at 9:25 AM · Report this
Sir Elroy 18
Vainly claiming to know the exact ins and outs of God and who he accepts - I'm pretty sure one of the 10 commandments (hint: #3) said not to do that.

And didn't Jesus & Paul have pretty harsh words against judging?

Why, yes. Yes they did.

Posted by Sir Elroy on January 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM · Report this
fletc3her 19
Every time you split an infinitive a devil gets its horns.
Posted by fletc3her on January 13, 2014 at 9:38 AM · Report this
venomlash 20
The non-asshole denominations of the Abrahamic tradition usually have a bit to the effect of "be a good person and you'll be rewarded in the next life, even if you weren't pious".

@18: Most branches of Christianity don't follow Commandments 2 or 4 either, and there have been recurring problems with 6 and 9 as well.
Posted by venomlash on January 13, 2014 at 9:56 AM · Report this
I will always remember Calvinism as the origin of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."
Posted by LGBTQWTF on January 13, 2014 at 9:57 AM · Report this
Ophian 22
Another self-satisfied idiot failing at religion, not exemplifying it.
Posted by Ophian on January 13, 2014 at 10:01 AM · Report this
The entire concept of Heaven and Hell is simply organized religion's contribution to maintaining the socio-economic status-quo: "don't focus on how shitty the rich and powerful are treating you NOW, poor folk; you'll get your payback AFTER you die!"
Posted by COMTE on January 13, 2014 at 10:03 AM · Report this
Dan, Dan, Dan. You need to remember to distinguish between those who believe they are Christians and those whom God has actually CHOSEN to be Christians. Those who simply believe they are Christians do not REALLY believe in Christianity--at least, not the right, true kind of Christianity--because they were not CHOSE BY GOD to hold the correct beliefs. Basically, God plays "eenie-meenie-minee-moe," And you, Dan, a godless fag because you are an eenie, not a moe!
Posted by LML on January 13, 2014 at 10:13 AM · Report this
Weird because I was reading the Bible and there was this passage about, "Those who obey the law are blessed but those who obey the law are three times blessed," with a whole passage about a "pagan" person who acted with justice and kindness and how cool God thought that was. I wish I could remember which book it was in.

@23 The most important part about the concept of heaven and hell is whether or not it is true. Since we cannot prove this one way or the other, we should look at the next most important part: The effect it has on society. And studies showed that societies that believe in a punitive afterlife for the wicket have less crime. So yes, the rich may co-opt the idea of damnation to prevent progressivism and social justice, but it also means fewer murders.

I agree with @6. Everyone should understand what it is that they're criticizing. It's not that going to Church doesn't help anyone reach religious enlightenment. It's that the Calvinists believe that God already knows who will succeed. At a Catholic mass, there are Bible readings and then the priest does a homily explaining what they mean and how they're relevant. Even people who don't believe in God should understand that prayer is a form of meditation and meditation makes people think about what they do and the consequences of their actions.

Again, the most important part, whether or not it's true, isn't something that we can prove, but the next most important part, its effects, are observable. If going to church doesn't make you a kinder person, then you're probably doing it wrong.
Posted by DRF on January 13, 2014 at 10:15 AM · Report this
Sorry, "punitive afterlife for the wickeD." I don't know if God has anything against Ewoks or croquet equipment, but I doubt it.
Posted by DRF on January 13, 2014 at 10:16 AM · Report this
@6 Not quite. God not only knows who will believe in Him--he CALLS them to believe. Those who do not believe were not called.

BTW this is not just Calvanism. See St. Augustine--the foundations of Catholicism! Basically, you should obey despots because we can never know if God has called them to be saved. Those who claim to be Christian may or may not be. Those who are not Christian may be called to God on their deathbeds. Humans are evil (due to original sin) and therefore need despotic order to prevent greater sin. Therefore, St. Augustine argues we must obey all rulers, unless they SPECIFICALLY tell us to break the NINE commandments. (Thou Shalt Not Kill is not included. It is necessary for keeping order, and it is not really you doing the killing. It is the state doing the killing using you as a tool. So massacring children is OK with God, as long as you have higher orders. See Nazi Germany!)
Posted by LML on January 13, 2014 at 10:20 AM · Report this
seattlestew 28
Life is too short to give a fuck about what superstitious assholes say, let alone on shitter, er, twitter.
Posted by seattlestew on January 13, 2014 at 10:22 AM · Report this
Which commandments do you mean? Different denominations number them differently...…
Posted by migrationist on January 13, 2014 at 10:25 AM · Report this
Posted by Fnarf on January 13, 2014 at 10:45 AM · Report this
@30 Actually, the Religious Right make quite an effort to turn everywhere into Hell.
Posted by LML on January 13, 2014 at 10:49 AM · Report this
I am clearly not a Calvinist. I have absolutely no concern for anyone else's sins. I am only responsible for my own. Free will and all. I believe it is all about the journey. We are here to learn and grow. But it is a good idea to try not to hurt others along the way. But I think that anyone who tells people that all they need to do is follow him, and he has all the answers, is leading people in the wrong direction. Driscoll is a false profit. I'm probably going to Hell for that.
Posted by SeattleKim on January 13, 2014 at 10:52 AM · Report this
fletc3her 33
@29 That has long been a pet-peeve of mine. The text provides few clues as to how the commandments are meant to be numbered. I guess it tells us there are ten total, otherwise I'd be tempted to number them in the dozens.

It's revealing that the commandments which are about securing the churches priority in society are really long and legal sounding, while the ones that lay out basic morality are short and to the point.
Posted by fletc3her on January 13, 2014 at 10:54 AM · Report this
keshmeshi 34

What studies? And how does that track within the United States where more religious states have higher crime rates?
Posted by keshmeshi on January 13, 2014 at 11:05 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 35
"FEAR, NOT LOVE", the rallying cry of Mars Hill.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 13, 2014 at 11:19 AM · Report this
Dear Mark,

Please move to Texas or Mississippi or some other third world country where they will tolerate your ignorant uneducated bigoted bullshit.



Posted by NineOneFour on January 13, 2014 at 11:33 AM · Report this
@ 25 actually, studies have demonstrated that highly religious people feel entitled to lie to and cheat anyone whom they don't see as a fellow believer.

Also think of all the "Christian" nations that saw no problem with invading "pagan" nations, raping, enslaving, and massacring. Oh, yeah, they then said there own actions were legal, so I guess you can't count that as real crime.
Posted by LML on January 13, 2014 at 11:35 AM · Report this
IndicaDogwalk 38
If there isn't already a clear and directed movement against Driscoll, meant to expose and discredit him, there needs to be. I'll help form it. I'll write for it. I'll lead it! This man needs to be taken down, toppled - removed.

If anyone is interested in this, contact me. Figure out how (it's not that hard) and let's get this going. We need a serious, legal, above-board group of people focused...with a laser-like focus, on bringing Driscoll and his church DOWN. I am 100% serious. Any takers? Any joiners?
Posted by IndicaDogwalk on January 13, 2014 at 12:37 PM · Report this
treacle 39
If you have to go about justifying your statement of judgement and/or disdain for a group you wish to vilify, by claiming that "It's unloving to not" judge other people, then you really have your wires crossed.

Saying horrid things about people you don't know, based on a made-up vision of terrible fate, for them simply not holding a particular belief in their heads (as opposed to, you know, actually engaging in pro-social actions)... is at base, hateful.

Why you such a hater, Driscoll? Why do you hate other people? Why do you need to say negative things about people you don't know?

Oh, right, because keeping your 'flock' fearful and hating "other people" is the best way to keep them together.

Classic brainwashing technique.
Posted by treacle on January 13, 2014 at 12:38 PM · Report this
@39 The difficult question is not why Driscoll does what he does, but why so many people buy what he's selling?
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 13, 2014 at 12:49 PM · Report this
T 41
@32 Driscoll's profits are very real.
Posted by T on January 13, 2014 at 12:58 PM · Report this
If there is a Hell, and anyone is condemned there for eternity, I demand to go there. Any God who condemns a single person, for deeds which take place in this life, to an eternal life of unending torment is no being worth worshiping or even spending time with. As I in this life refuse to spend time with those whose behavior I find execrable, so I will in the next life, if it is (against all odds) real.
Posted by Hanoumatoi on January 13, 2014 at 1:19 PM · Report this
ɥsɐןɯouǝʌ 43
@29, 33: Persistent disregard of "no idols" and "honor the Sabbath", recurring issues with "don't murder" and "don't bear false witness". Respectively: crucifixes and icons, observing the 1st day rather than the 7th, Crusades and Inquisition, Inquisition et cetera.
Posted by ɥsɐןɯouǝʌ on January 13, 2014 at 1:32 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 44
@36: They wouldn't thrive as well without their gimmick of being tattooed and "rebellious" PUNK RAWK traditional patriarchal fundamentalist Megachurch Christians based around "filthy godless liberals and The Gay".

They'd end up judged by their fellow fundie bigots as much or worse than they judge us.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 13, 2014 at 1:32 PM · Report this
That there is wife beater logic.
Posted by CarbunicleTRUE on January 13, 2014 at 2:09 PM · Report this
I grew up with a conservative family in the same denomination as Mars Hill (Reformed). Calvinism is seriously depressing. Whenever I humor my parents by going to church when I visit, I just sit there wondering how they ever attract new members, what with all the gloom and doom.
Posted by Escapee from S. Idaho on January 13, 2014 at 2:13 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 47
@46: What exact denomination are they? I always assumed that these Megachurches are their own spin, which is how they sell their personality and charisma driven brands so well.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 13, 2014 at 2:27 PM · Report this
@46: Hell Sells.
Posted by Hanoumatoi on January 13, 2014 at 2:48 PM · Report this
@34 The person telling me about these studies was speaking out loud, so I don't have a web address for you.

@37 Yep. Edward III raped and pillaged his way across France and still presented himself as a good Christian prince, but let's remember that it's not just Christian nations that invade other nations. Non-religious countries like the Soviet Union and Communist China have done the same thing. War is a human problem, not a religious problem.

@39 But what if the speaker doesn't believe that it's made up and fictional? During the past few centuries, missionaries have gone to convert other people because they believed that they would go to hell if they did not. They acted out of genuine concern for their welfare. Also, what if they're right?

As for your, "but not engaging in prosocial activities," I agree entirely. No reason why people can't also do that.
Posted by DRF on January 13, 2014 at 3:21 PM · Report this
-B- 50
Christians are already in their own delusional hell and they keep eating it up like candy and constantly shitting it out all over rational thinking, moral people.
Posted by -B- on January 13, 2014 at 3:25 PM · Report this
The Max 51
I tend to keep the fact that I actually have a somewhat limited direct line to Jesus Need to Know. This seems like a good time to drop His name. I brought up Tulip Theory a while back and He told me that there's a lot to it. Salvation is a gift. It's generally impossible for most people to earn it or buy it. It's also difficult to cast it away. You have to refuse it repeatedly through increasingly harsh thoughts, words, and deeds. There are very few for whom such regular rebuff is functionally possible. Where Calvin and his descendants get it wrong is that it's very hard to fail to get into heaven. Almost everyone eventually gives up and accepts it. Myself, a few hundred years or so from now, I'm looking forward to getting together with Martin and Ghandi and seeing if Jerry Falwell can be coaxed out of his magnificent mansion where he's holed up all alone.
Posted by The Max on January 13, 2014 at 4:06 PM · Report this
@47: The denomination is, literally, Reformed. As in the Reformed Church in America (RCA). (The Christian Reformed Church split from the RCA way back when.) You sometimes still hear the RCA referred to as the Dutch Reformed Church. I get the feeling Mars Hill is going its own way, but still is just as conservative and hateful as the rest of the RCA. All I know is that my aunt keeps telling me that she has some relatives up here who would LOVE to take me to church at Mars Hill!!
Posted by Escapee from S. Idaho on January 13, 2014 at 4:18 PM · Report this
Sir Elroy 53
@25: Were you referring to Romans 2?

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)"
Posted by Sir Elroy on January 13, 2014 at 4:40 PM · Report this
Calvinism can really make your brain hurt. It seems to condemn everyone (we are all sinners and evil by nature and can never earn heaven) at the same time that it lets everyone off the hook of being responsible for their behaviors (because we were predestined to be saved or damned).

It also provides an answer for the injustice of the world. It is not really injustice; we get what we deserve because an all-knowing god knows in advance who deserves to get some breaks in life and who is so rotten that they deserve for their hells to begin on earth. So the rich deserve to be so; their happier lives are signs they are of the "elect," just as the poor are not to be pitied because they deserve their poverty. In other words, Calvinism is very popular with the 1% and always has been.
Posted by Lindie on January 13, 2014 at 5:22 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 55
@54: It only makes your brain hurt if you assume that they're not some amount of a sociopath.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 13, 2014 at 5:38 PM · Report this
@53 Yeah, that's probably it. Hooray Romans 2!

@50 Except for, you know, the Christians who actually dedicate their lives to helping others or performing their function in society without making a fuss. But they don't make as much noise.
Posted by DRF on January 13, 2014 at 6:24 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 57
@ 54 is right. The Puritans brought that mentality to America and it's been deep in our collective psyche ever since. It's why we are the most pathetic developed nation when it comes to caring for our own.
Posted by Matt from Denver on January 13, 2014 at 6:36 PM · Report this
What's better than roses on the piano?

Tulips on the organ...
Posted by oh-bother on January 13, 2014 at 7:17 PM · Report this
McJulie 59
According to this religious writer, Driscoll's smug, narcissistic understanding of hell is exactly the opposite of what Jesus intended.…
Posted by McJulie on January 13, 2014 at 11:00 PM · Report this
Actually, it's more logical that *all* Christians are going to hell. Simply by virtue of the fact that more than one Christian sect says that anyone who doesn't belong to that sect, is going to hell. It's pretty safe to assume that they're all right (because God is infallible), and therefore, *everyone* is going to hell.

One way or another, there isn't fuck all anyone can do about it, so that frees up a lot of time for snorting equal volumes of E and coke off of a hooker's ass. Preferably more than one at a time.
Posted by gromm on January 13, 2014 at 11:52 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 61
@60: Calvinist indicates that they can snort E and do coke while cheating on their wife and abusing their kids and they'll still be Predestined to heaven, while someone who lives an honestly good life would go to hell, because that's what God intended from the start.

That's why these guys are such dickholes.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 14, 2014 at 8:49 AM · Report this
ɥsɐןɯouǝʌ 62
@61: Nah, the predestination logic goes that if someone is a bad enough person to do all those things, that's just evidence that God's planning on sending them downstairs anyway. To that way of thinking, good deeds don't save your soul; they just confirm that your soul has already been saved. It's bass-ackward in my opinion...
Posted by ɥsɐןɯouǝʌ on January 14, 2014 at 9:24 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 63
@62: "Nah, the predestination logic goes that if someone is a bad enough person to do all those things, that's just evidence that God's planning on sending them downstairs anyway.

That's not the way things work out on Earth.

If you're well off and evil, God must have wanted you to be happy, and therefore you've got it made. The poor and meek are fucked.
Posted by undead ayn rand on January 14, 2014 at 10:13 AM · Report this
The problem is that people allow other people to dictate their faith and not God. There are poor representations of all people supporting many causes distastefully. Church shouldn't soley be based off of a person's belief. The purpose of church is to find like minded people and worship together, almost creating a mastermind group of faith and strengthen your relationship with God. Many people don't read the bible or go to study groups and learn the material first hand. They let a pastor, minister or Priest to do all the work and absorb information based off of that interpretation, rather than God's. People research consumer products and restaurants all the time, why not with your faith?? I don't need a spoke's person to represent the Christian faith. Ghandi said it best: "I love your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."
Posted by Liberal Christian on March 7, 2014 at 8:55 AM · Report this

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