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Wednesday, July 31, 2013

SLLOTD: Accidental Sex

Posted by on Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 11:38 AM

I'm on vacation this week but the "Savage Love Letter of the Day"—a.k.a. "SLLOTD"—must go on! Subbing for me this week...

Chris Savage is an industrial chemist by day and Michigan's most widely read progressive political blogger the rest of the time. His work covering Michigan's take over by corporatist Republicans has been featured on MSNBC, The Nation magazine, the New York Times Magazine and beyond. Rachel Maddow calls Chris's blog Eclectablog "The indispensable Michigan politics source—the essential Michigan blog". And get this: His last name is "Savage." That makes Chris the natural and obvious choice to take over the "SLLOTD" in my absence. In addition to his writing, Chris is a local organizer for the Michigan Democratic Party where work is already underway to return control of the state government to Democrats in 2014. He also coordinates a community garden that provides (literally) tons of fresh produce to a local food bank. Chris is married to photographer Anne C. Savage. They live on their suburban homestead just outside of Ann Arbor with their cat and pit bull—that's right, Sloggers, I'm allowing the owner of a PIT BULL to take over the SLLOTD for a week—where they tend a large organic garden. You can follow Chris on Twitter (@Eclectablog) and his Facebook page.

Chris will be answering your questions all week. This is his first crack at sex-and-relationship advice so… be gentle with him in the comments, okay? –Dan

Hello Dan. I'm a 19 year-old female in a straight GGG relationship with my boyfriend of 9 months. Neither of us have had sex. Before meeting me, he was absolutely a wait-until-marriage kind of guy. He is game for anything that doesn't include down-there penetration, so we frequently engage in all sorts of frisky teenagerish dry-humping/frottage/anything that isn't actually vaginal or anal sex.

Since meeting me, he's become comfortable with the idea of having sex before marriage, but he wants to wait a loooong time. I'm comfortable with this because he is without a doubt a man worth waiting for.

However, two days ago, there was an issue. After he returned from a 5-day trip, we got WAY too frisky in the shower, and with the slipperiness, awkward positioning in the bathtub, and hormones raging out of control, there was brief, painful vaginal penetration.

I would have gotten over it the moment it stopped hurting, but he is beside himself. He is upset about hurting/'violating' me, angry at himself for not keeping it under control, and grief stricken that this is how we 'lost' our virginities.

I've tried explaining that I don't feel violated or like any less of a virgin. My hymen broke a long time ago, and honestly the shower-incident was so painful, quick, and unexpected that it hardly qualified as actual sex. And it was an accident that we were both complicit in. But he won't seem to listen to my reasoning. He is distraught.

I'm worried about how this will effect us sexually and emotionally. I really wish this was one of those things where it might just blow over, but even two days after it happened I'm getting the feeling that it most definitely won't. How do I rebuild trust after something like this? I know many couples experience mildly traumatizing sexual mishaps, and how do both parties move on from them?

Accidental Shower Sex

My response after the jump...

Well, ASS, given that the two of you were completely naked in the shower together when you "accidentally" got poked, especially since you two already seem to have had plenty of sexual experiences together of the non-penetrating kind (including what was happening right before you had "accidental" shower sex), I'm going to put you both in the category of "not virgins" even before he deflowered you. The reality is that sex involves everything from fully clothed dry humping to BDSM orgies and everything in between. Nothing makes the act of penetration particularly sacrosanct so why would it require waiting a loooong time before you can engage in it but not all that other stuff you do? It's just one more sexual act in a long continuum of fun sex that you can have.

This attitude reminds me of Michigan Republicans: they tell us that they aren't fucking us with their anti-women laws, their anti-worker laws, and their "tax the poor to give tax breaks to the rich" laws. But, the reality is, yeah, they're fucking us.

As far as how to get your man out of his head on this, try refocusing it on something else. For men, this is embarrassingly easy. Start teasing that future day (after he's waited the requisite " loooong" time, of course) when he will truly violate you to your mutual, orgasmic pleasure. Some day when he's not expecting it, whisper in his ear, "I can't wait until for the day you REALLY violate me…" The next time he's on a business trip, sext him something like "I am aching for when I lose my [insert sex act you haven't done yet] virginity to you…" Slip a note into his wallet that says "This coupon redeemable for 1 hour of me, naked, doing whatever you tell me to while you fuck me."

My guess is he'll forget that shower scene in a throbbing heartbeat.

P.S. "Accidental" sex can lead to STDs and unwanted pregnancies, too. Get tested for both.


Comments (53) RSS

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rob! 1
Run. Anybody who, these days, is this ignorant and/or obsessed with conservative religious perfectionism, will ultimately prove to be a terrible husband and parent. Now you have a glimpse of how he will likely behave when he thinks the housework or the cooking or your personal appearance isn't up to snuff and he blames you rather than himself (by the way, he will probably eventually end up blaming you for his dick-slip).

Imagine if you both, some months ago, had made a rational decision to have regular all-options sex together and had planned contraception, gotten tested for STDs, arranged a romantic getaway, etc. By now you would know if this man-worth-waiting-for is actually worth marrying.
Posted by rob! on July 31, 2013 at 12:07 PM · Report this
seatackled 2
I agree with @1 about run. Not so much because of the decision to "wait," but more because of the way he reacted to the partial penetration: how will he react if, god forbid, the LW ever becomes a sexual assault victim? He'll treat her like tainted goods.
Posted by seatackled on July 31, 2013 at 12:13 PM · Report this
scary tyler moore 3
chris savage made all these letters up to talk about michigan politics.
Posted by scary tyler moore on July 31, 2013 at 12:15 PM · Report this
Max Solomon 4
your boyfriend is an idiot.
Posted by Max Solomon on July 31, 2013 at 12:16 PM · Report this
Hernandez 5
Hopefully, for his sake, at some point he'll come around to moving on from the conservative repressed sexuality that obviously afflicts him right now. But it's not your responsibility to break him out of those patterns, nor is it likely that you'll even be able to. Continue at your own risk.
Posted by Hernandez on July 31, 2013 at 12:26 PM · Report this
gttim 6
Michigan Republicans are idiots.
Posted by gttim on July 31, 2013 at 12:36 PM · Report this
very bad homo 7
You lost your virginity at the first blowjob, my dear. And so did he.
Posted by very bad homo on July 31, 2013 at 12:38 PM · Report this
Milo.On.My.Head 8
Not all decisions to wait are religion based. My high school sweetheart and I started slow and had all sorts of sexual encounters, but decided to wait on vaginal sex until our marriage when we hit 20 (still WAY too young) as something special to look forward to. We didn't consider ourselves virgins, and were very happy with the sex we were having anyway. The marriage didn't last, but we're still friends and I have zero regrets (no kids together). But I agree that the reaction is juvenile and portends many future problems if this dude doesn't grow up quick!
Posted by Milo.On.My.Head on July 31, 2013 at 12:48 PM · Report this
Posted by beef rallard on July 31, 2013 at 1:07 PM · Report this
ScrawnyKayaker 10
Hey beef, that comment's kinda jerky.
Posted by ScrawnyKayaker on July 31, 2013 at 1:17 PM · Report this
which part?
Posted by beef rallard on July 31, 2013 at 1:20 PM · Report this
@11 the part where you don't get the joke. Also the part where you didn't get the other joke.
Posted by eptified on July 31, 2013 at 1:30 PM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 13
Sex advice segueing into a specific political situation was funny the first time, amusing the second...

....and now the joke is stale.

Are you going to go full-on SNL & keep repeating the joke unto self-parody?
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on July 31, 2013 at 1:34 PM · Report this
I am suddenly finding myself having to contemplate the possibility that the dumb michigan politics fixation is supposed to be funny. If so, I would like to change my original complaint to "get better jokes."

Posted by beef rallard on July 31, 2013 at 1:36 PM · Report this
ScrawnyKayaker 15
Anything would be better than my lame "beef jerky" joke.
Posted by ScrawnyKayaker on July 31, 2013 at 1:52 PM · Report this
Registered European 16
Why should these people get tested for STDs if neither of them has had sex before?
Posted by Registered European on July 31, 2013 at 1:56 PM · Report this
sirkowski 17
Christ, what a fag.
Posted by sirkowski on July 31, 2013 at 2:14 PM · Report this
Jaymz 18
Gotta try that bacon jerky now - dried up seasoned meats on my mind... huh? What were we... oh, yeah DETROIT APPARENTLY IS NOT FUNNY or something. Plus virgin STDs
Posted by Jaymz on July 31, 2013 at 2:16 PM · Report this
@1 Yes, he's immature and has issues, but he's also something like 19 years old and in his first relationship. Everybody is immature and has issues under those circumstances, including her, I expect. His particular flavor is a problem - if it continues as he grows up. But he's already showing signs of maturing and slowly getting past it. If she thinks he's generally awesome, giving him some time to get past it seems reasonable to me. She has no obligation to do so, but this isn't a clear run away situation. Now if he were 27 that would be a clear run away, his issues are too deep issue.

@16 They are called sexually transmitted infections or sexually transmitted diseases because that is a common avenue of transmission, but you do not need to have sex of any form to get one. They are either transmissible through bodily fluids or through physical contact, depending on the infection in question. You can get genital herpes from your parents or a daycare provider changing your diaper in infancy without having washed his/her hands first. HPV is also touch-based and can be spread non-sexually. You can be born with HIV, hepatitis, etc. (Fortunately there is a hepatitis b vaccination these days, so the risks are lower, which is good, because you can get hepatitis from week old room temperature dried blood that has been on a random surface if you have a cut in your hand for it to enter... hepatitis is scarily contagious). HIV is harder to catch, as it is much more fragile, but can still be contracted in non-sexual ways through bodily fluid contact. Anyhow, either of them could have had blood or touch exposure to something nasty at some point in time without even being aware of it. The odds are lower, but it can happen.
Posted by uncreative on July 31, 2013 at 3:00 PM · Report this
Alicia 20
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that advising the lady to make jokes/sexy suggestions about future 'violations' to this dude is going to backfire pretty epically. Reinforcing this guy's association between one oops-ouch moment of penetration and THE SCARY WORD 'VIOLATION' is just going to make more work for this couple in the long run.
Posted by Alicia on July 31, 2013 at 3:21 PM · Report this
@20 agreed. Better advice: give it more time. Talk about other stuff. Do fun non-sexy things together. Do fun sexy things together. Try to minimize how much you talk together about that shower mishap.

After a month, if he's still harping on about this and unable to relax and have fun messing around with you, tell him that his obsession is an issue he needs to deal with, because you're not going to listen to this any more.

But also: take a lesson from this event that sometimes our bodies get carried away and demand things our rational brains didn't want. Alcohol increases the odds of that happening, but horniness can do it all by itself.
Posted by EricaP on July 31, 2013 at 3:43 PM · Report this
The guy is probably mostly upset cause he caused you pain. Most people beat themselves up when they cause the person they love any type of pain, and the rest of why he is upset is probably why he wanted the "first time" to be mutually pleasurable... as in you not in pain. This is actually really sweet that he cares about you so much.

The guy is going to have to get over this himself. No amount of talking is going to get him over it, though I'm sure he appreciates the support. Just drop the subject, and show him through action you are still VERY interested in doing kinky stuff with him. He'll get over it eventually.

On a side note, why would any of them need to be tested for STDs if they are both virgins? That advice was dumb. And yes, Dan should leave instructions for his column not to be used to rehash stale political jokes over & over. It's just down right annoying and I'm considering not reading until Dan gets back. At least Dan makes funny political jokes. Chris's jokes are rather lame.

And I have to disagree with Chris on his definition of a virgin. Females only lose their virginity through penetration of a penis. She was technically a virgin until this, although yes she was "experienced" in other sexual acts. If you go off of Chris's definition, then a girl can lose her virginity solely by mutual masturbation, and how exactly do you expect to measure how many times you must be masturbated before you are no longer a virgin? Something that gray just does not cut it.
Posted by toenail on July 31, 2013 at 3:49 PM · Report this
23 Comment Pulled (Trolling) Comment Policy
Maybe he's upset because he feels like he violated an agreement with God? That this is more of a religious crisis for him, that now he is tarnished goods and can't marry a virginal woman (which would also make his gf not a virgin, so can't marry? Only kind he can marry now? Unclear on that.). The whole purity ring thing?
Or maybe he just had this idea of it being really special or something, like we usually train girls to think, and doin' it in the shower wasn't on the list.
Or maybe he feels like he raped her because it was non-consensual penetration (not really but in his mind?). Because he actually did do it on purpose then immediately regretted it, compounded by her probable "ouch" reaction? So now he's got the sads since he's thinks he's a bad guy instead of listening to the actual person he penetrated and relaxing about it?
I dunno. I think he meant to save penetration for his wife, which is why he wanted to wait a looong time, to make sure the gf was the one (they could then have sex before marriage in the sense that they could have sex once essentially engaged), and now he can't go untainted to the marriage bed (so also disqualifies himself from demanding a virgin bride)? I guess his solution would be to get married. That'll go well. How did we manage to sell the virgin 'till marriage thing, first time so so special thing to the guys? Hell of a PR job.
Posted by gnot on July 31, 2013 at 6:13 PM · Report this
Thought - has he ever seen the gf be penetrated by toys or similar? Because if he has this idea that she never has been penetrated before, and she can correct that error, then he might calm down at least about the idea that he wrongfully violated her precious sacred bits, making him feel like less of a bad guy? I'd show him using something really dramatically large, were it me, but then again a teenage boy probably has enough to deal with re: inadequacy, might not be the kindest tack to take. Something his size or smaller. But still sizable.
Posted by gnot on July 31, 2013 at 6:20 PM · Report this
@22 The magic penis argument. So all lesbians are virgins 'til death?
Posted by gnot on July 31, 2013 at 6:21 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 27
@8: Well, not all bad decisions are religious in origin.
Posted by undead ayn rand on July 31, 2013 at 6:23 PM · Report this
To continue the thought from 25

You could then get a harness, and have him fuck you with a strap on. Which according to his rules still seems like it would be fine. I admit I don't really get his rules. But you'd still both somehow be virgins, is my thinking. He would be anyway. Right?
Posted by gnot on July 31, 2013 at 6:26 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 29
@21: "After a month, if he's still harping on about this and unable to relax and have fun messing around with you, tell him that his obsession is an issue he needs to deal with, because you're not going to listen to this any more."

Just wait until they ACTUALLY HAVE SEX and how much that's going to break his head.
Posted by undead ayn rand on July 31, 2013 at 6:28 PM · Report this
Being from Michigan, I'm really enjoying Chris's posts. Feels like a twofer.
Posted by Alice Dreger on July 31, 2013 at 6:33 PM · Report this
Yes, a lesbian who has not been penetrated by a penis is a virgin. Lesbians can do sexual acts with one another all day long, but that is all just masturbation and other sex acts, like oral sex. The actual loss of virginity involves anal or vaginal penetration by a penis. Women don't have penises. Or are you going to honestly say being eaten out and screwed with a strap on count as losing ones virginity, or masturbating a person with your fingers deflowers them. They are all sexual acts, but it does not count as virginity loss. If being penetrated by something like a strap on counted, then I could lose my virginity to a tampon. And if being masturbated by someone else counted, then dry humping and fingering someone would equal virginity loss. I doubt very few ladies would consider themselves non-virgins after those types of acts.
Posted by toenail on July 31, 2013 at 8:36 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 32
@31: It's all very arbitrary, really. If you're talking "innocence", it counts. It isn't only used to refer to penetration.
Posted by undead ayn rand on July 31, 2013 at 9:17 PM · Report this
rob! 33
I can see there's really a lot of work to be done in order to convince people what a dopey idea "virginity" is—the whole concept was cooked up to give some people leverage and power over others and to create artificial states of sin, ruin, and spoilage.

Note that while the concept exists for men, it's really only ever enforced on women based on the broken hymen (a bullshit benchmark) or on pregnancy (itself a somewhat error-prone indicator).

Almost as many angles and pitfalls as the very useful notion of internalized homophobia.
Posted by rob! on July 31, 2013 at 9:56 PM · Report this
Can we redefine virginity to mean the first time someone else gives you an orgasm?
I mean for a lot of (not all) women straight PIV sex is enjoyable and possibly meaningful but not the be-all-end-all. If she is anything like me and other women who can't orgasm from penetration alone then he's really only saving a mind-blowing experience for himself.
Plus with this new def I can totally say I saved my virginity for my husband (tho obvs not til marriage!!).
Posted by chi_type on July 31, 2013 at 10:07 PM · Report this
Plus this can be as totally rational as anonymous ridiculous definitions. If sex-crazed multiply-orgasmic lesbians can be called virgins then I think missionary-position close-your-eyes-and-think-of-the-queen wives totally deserve the title.
Posted by chi_type on July 31, 2013 at 10:12 PM · Report this
If you're fucking, then you're probably fucking.…
Posted by planned barrenhood on July 31, 2013 at 11:19 PM · Report this
In general I think in order to be a virgin you need to not have had sex with anyone else. And I always liked this definition of sex: "The sexual urge or instinct as it manifests itself in behavior." (American Heritage Dictionary)

Expressing the sexual urge upon yourself clearly does not de-virginize you, but oral sex, anal sex, expressing the sexual urge by finger-fucking your girlfriend until she squirts hard enough to soak the ceiling, any expression of sexual urge with someone else should count.

Plus I think this means there are a number of teenage boys who lost their virginity to a circlejerk...
Posted by tal on August 1, 2013 at 12:08 AM · Report this
Ugh, I think this advice is awful. If there's a sex act this young man is uncomfortable with, his girlfriend should respect that and persistant comments about how much she wants him to fuck her are out of line. He'll get over his hangup in time - subtle encouragement would be more helpful than badgering. If the genders were flipped and it was the girl who was hesitant to engage in penetrative sex and was upset about an accident, we'd all be shouting DTMFA if the boy wrote texts like the ones suggested by Mr. Savage.

Meanwhile, "P.S. "Accidental" sex can lead to STDs and unwanted pregnancies, too. Get tested for both." Are you serious? Two near-virgins and a single moment of penetration are very, very, unlikely to get pregnant or infected. Panicking and getting tested would probably just add to the boy's hangups.
Posted by ridia on August 1, 2013 at 3:51 AM · Report this
I'd agree that this advice could make things worse. First she needs to show him that she understands his disappointment and upset, and be sympathetic that he is distressed. She should also point out that this has happened, it can't unhappen, and the best thing to do with accidents is be philosophical and not let them ruin your life.

Assuming after a few days he calms down, the LW might want to ask her boyfriend to make plans. This couple clearly are in the running for another 'accident' soon, so they need to either stop seeing each other or decide when and how they'd like to do this thing that is special to them. The LW could point out that principles are usually informed and reshaped by experience. Where once it seemed that penetrative sex was only appropriate for marriage, now it's clear that pre-marriage relationships can be special enough to put penetrative sex on the table. If it's on the table, it might as well be planned for.

If he's waiting for her to qualify for penetration in some way, he needs to lay out exactly what conditions he expects her or the relationship to meet. She needs to decide if she can put up with whatever it is. If it's about waiting for some unspecified moment that he isn't able to describe, but he will be distraught if intercourse happens before it, that's just ridiculous and she needs to get away from such a silly person.
Posted by misspiggy on August 1, 2013 at 6:02 AM · Report this
undead ayn rand 40
@38: "If the genders were flipped and it was the girl who was hesitant to engage in penetrative sex and was upset about an accident, we'd all be shouting DTMFA if the boy wrote texts like the ones suggested by Mr. Savage."

NOPE. If she was sorry about tainting his "honor", we'd be offering the same advice. Flipping the genders without changing the actual context does not give the same situation.

"Meanwhile, "P.S. "Accidental" sex can lead to STDs and unwanted pregnancies, too. Get tested for both." Are you serious? Two near-virgins and a single moment of penetration are very, very, unlikely to get pregnant or infected. Panicking and getting tested would probably just add to the boy's hangups."

Well, if he's going to have sex, he should do it responsibly. His hangups are irrelevant, if he ever ~wants~ to have sex. Which, considering the shower grindage, is going to happen sooner rather than later. (He's not a particularly smart boy.)
Posted by undead ayn rand on August 1, 2013 at 6:22 AM · Report this
"Nothing makes the act of penetration particularly sacrosanct"

Thousands of years of tradition make it particularly sacrosanct. Anyone has the right to think these beliefs are wrong, but telling someone that they're wrong for feeling the way they feel and to just start ignoring them isn't going to work. Vaginal sex is obviously something different for the LW and her partner and by refusing to accept that they're using the traditional definition of "virgin," you risk giving them advice that they can't use.

1. They were virgins before the day in the shower. They weren't sexually inexperienced but they were virgins. This is what the term "technical virgin" is for. 2. They're virgins of any sort now. Yes, this act counts.

But that wasn't the girl's question. The girl's question was how they can get over this issue emotionally. I'd say that they should focus on their overall record: Think of waiting for marriage/other milestone like a marathon: Just because you don't win doesn't mean you can't be proud of running a decent time. Think of it like smoking: A person who only has two cigarettes a year is going to be way healthier than someone who smokes every day, even if their life goal was never to have one ever. Think of it like baseball: Yeah, it's great to pitch a perfect game, but pitching a game with only one hit is still pretty darn good.

So for this man for whom waiting until marriage/milestone for full sexual intercourse was a personal life goal in which he had invested his energy and his willpower, tell him that he's still done pretty well even though he didn't do a perfect job. Just because he slipped up once doesn't mean they need to feel like crud or give up.
Posted by DRF on August 1, 2013 at 10:00 AM · Report this
EDIT: Sorry. I meant to write "2. They're not virgins of any sort now."
Posted by DRF on August 1, 2013 at 10:01 AM · Report this
Isn't grinding your genitals together without penetration a vector for STDs anyway? Why does it matter how long the penetration lasted?
Posted by beef rallard on August 1, 2013 at 10:49 AM · Report this
lolorhone 44
@41: Their virginities are so technical they're practically conceptual rather than physical. It might be a good idea to get this through their skulls so that, in context, the shower "incident" isn't such a trauma for them.
Posted by lolorhone on August 1, 2013 at 12:26 PM · Report this
@9: Hate to burst your bubble but it was kinda Dan's idea. I'm just sayin'... Today's answer should make you feel more better. Tomorrow's probably won't.

@12: You win the internet.

Posted by Eclectablog on August 1, 2013 at 1:04 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 46
This is NOT great advice, AND the relationship to Michigan politics was much more weakly drawn than previously.

20, 21 & 41 are kinda what I was thinking, too. They shouldn't beat themselves up over it. They can still have an amazing rest of their courtship, & have the wedding night of their dreams (though I myself am a believer in "practice makes perfect", I respect anyone else's timeline/schedule, as applies to themselves). This shower event can be a mountain, or a molehill.

Were I the LW, I'd take my SO out for breakfast somewhere - not home, where the slippery shower is - go out - & have some casual chitchat while ordering. Then just firmly, but kindly, I'd just come out with it: that I know that what happened in the shower wasn't planned, but instead of viewing it as a setback or a violation (brrr), it's an "oops". When trying to diet, we might have a chocolate cake night, an oops. But we pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, & start over again the next day with healthier eating/working out. (Eating breakfast helps w/ the food metaphors, y'see.) & when we marry, we can have all the chocolate cake (sex) we want! This was an oops & just proof of how very into each other we are. Then, I'd project as much reassuring vibe as I could muster & change the subject. Movies, current events, anything but showers & soapy bubbles. ;) Frank discussion can make a mountain back into a molehill, but the advice of sexy violation notes - or trying to not have the discussion - can make a molehill - which is really all the Shower Incident should be, in the grand scheme of things - into the Rocky Mountains.

Of course, I wouldn't be in that situation. Not necessarily because I don't believe in waiting that long, but because the boyfriend does sound..scheduled. If they couldn't just talk about this on their own, if such a small happening is already a huge deal, I fear for the couple's long-term compatibility. Also, he sounds controlling. :/

Best of luck, LW/ASS.

& Mr. Savage - Chris, not Dan - this was a nice try, but this reader disagrees. Now is NOT the time for sexytimes notes of any sort.
Posted by Eva Hopkins on August 1, 2013 at 11:23 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 47
@43: This is probably a guy raised on abstinence-only sex ed, he doesn't sound well-versed in the biology.
Posted by undead ayn rand on August 2, 2013 at 6:04 AM · Report this
@44 "Getting that through their heads" would require them to drastically change the way they think about sex, virginity and self-control. In other words, you'd be telling them. "You're wrong to think the way you do. You're wrong to feel bad about things you feel bad about. Be like me instead. I have no proof that I am right, but if you don't agree with me, you're stupid and silly."

That would put your goal in the not-going-to-happen category and you in the jerk category. If you want to help them, you have to engage with them.

Telling someone that the strict definition of virginity is silly is the same kind of thing as (but but less severe than) "Oh, you think God's mad at you? You know God doesn't exist, right?" People aren't going to become atheists over one mistake and they're not going to change their concept of virginity because of one mistake, especially if no one can prove that their concept of virginity is wrong.
Posted by DRF on August 2, 2013 at 8:27 AM · Report this
Sir Hungalot 49
Agree with early comments: run away from this religious fanatic. Just imagine living with some guy who pokes his girlfriend in the shower and then calls it an "accident". The guy is not in touch with reality, and he sure isn't capable of accepting responsibility for his own actions.
Posted by Sir Hungalot on August 2, 2013 at 11:10 AM · Report this
lolorhone 50

Whoa, aggression. "Get this through their skulls" was a simple turn of phrase (qualified with "It MIGHT be a good idea to") from which you've extracted an awful lot of entirely imagined hostility and condescension. All those quotes are from you, not from me. My stated goal was to make the shower "incident" LESS traumatic for them. That would not include barking at them about being stupid and naive. That was the agenda and perspective YOU invented for me. And projecting your own bullshit onto another party puts you squarely in the jerk category.
Posted by lolorhone on August 2, 2013 at 1:27 PM · Report this
@50 That's right. You said "heads" and not "skulls" and entirely dismissed the idea that their unprovable opinions about virginity might be just as valid as your own unprovable opinions about virginity.

If you want to make the shower incident less traumatic for them, then telling them that they're wrong to think of themselves as virgins before sex—wrong to feel traumatized in the first place—is going to be countereffective.
Posted by DRF on August 3, 2013 at 7:46 AM · Report this
lolorhone 52
@51: That's wrong. I said "skulls" and not "heads". And I wouldn't tell them they're WRONG so much as try to give them a different perspective- I believe virginity is lost in stages, and they've given actual penetration a hallowed status (as the end of the road) that has not necessarily been broken here. An accident like the one the LW described is not a willful breach of the Final Frontier- and the will to have intercourse should matter here, seeing as how the will to NOT have intercourse has defined every other aspect of their- yes, in fact, it is- sexual behavior. So if they see themselves as sexual practitioners who have not crossed the ultimate threshold yet (because an accidental slip is different than a determined thrust), the incident should be less of a trauma for them. I could have told you all of this earlier had you not been so busy wagging your finger while putting words in my mouth. Seriously.
Posted by lolorhone on August 3, 2013 at 3:39 PM · Report this
Are there a whole lot of 19 year olds who go on business trips? I have a feeling he went on a family vacation or something.
Posted by emilywhat on August 7, 2013 at 2:22 PM · Report this

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