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News & ArtsThursday, March 21, 2013
Gay Marriage Young Opponents of Gay Marriage Are Even Dumber Than Old Opponents of Gay Marriage
Posted by Paul Constant on Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:46 AM
Twitter tipper @solitarymuser alerted me to the existence of this New York Times story about the very few conservative young people who are opposed to gay marriage:
They hear that their cause is lost, that demographics and the march of history have doomed their campaign to keep marriage only between a man and a woman. But the young conservatives who oppose same-sex marriage — unlike most of their generation — remain undaunted.
They identify themselves as part of the “pro-marriage movement” and see themselves at the beginning of a long political struggle, much like the battle over abortion. If they can begin shifting the terms of the debate away from gay rights and toward the meaning of marriage, they say, they have a chance to survive short-term defeats.
Nope! That's not going to happen. The only leverage the anti-gay bigots had was the idea that if gay marriage passed, a bad thing—an amorphous something terrible—would happen to us all. Now that states from coast to coast have approved gay marriage and nothing awful has happened, all their arguments are moot. Making the conversation more about "the meaning of marriage," which presumably means more bullshit Bible talk, isn't going to change that. People are seeing happy married gay couples, and now those who oppose gay marriage aren't just trying to stop something that has never happened before; they're trying to take something that is very real away from people. I'm happy to report that these conservative kids are in for long lifetimes of disappointment.
2
Wasn't it North Dakota that just made abortion illegal? This despite the fact it was ruled a constitutional right decades ago.
4
"In redefining marriage to include same-sex couples, what you’re doing is you’re excluding the norm of sexual complementarity," said Mr. Anderson, the Heritage Foundation fellow. "Once you exclude that norm, the three other norms — which are monogamy, sexual exclusivity and permanency — become optional as well."
The result, proponents of traditional marriage say, would be further rises in divorce rates and out-of-wedlock births.
So the only thing keeping some straight couples from getting a divorce is gay couples not being able to establish next-of-kin and other marriage-only legal constructs.
The result, proponents of traditional marriage say, would be further rises in divorce rates and out-of-wedlock births.
So the only thing keeping some straight couples from getting a divorce is gay couples not being able to establish next-of-kin and other marriage-only legal constructs.
6
The issue of abortion is nothing like gay marriage. A better comparison is sodomy laws. Once they're gone, no one is going to bother to re-implement them.
7
"To be young and conservative means you are brainwashed and can't think for yourself. To be old and conservative you need to have the intelligence and critical thinking skills of a 12 year old."
8
Unless and until every one of these groups publicly announces a campaign to oppose and roll back divorce laws in all 50 states, their "defense of marriage" rhetoric is 100% bullshit.
11
Those nasty conservatives and their biblical marriage:
Solomon had 700 wives, but of course your average patriarch could only afford so many.
Genesis 4:19
And Lamech took unto him two wives.
Genesis 16:1-4
Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai ... gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived.
Solomon had 700 wives, but of course your average patriarch could only afford so many.
Genesis 4:19
And Lamech took unto him two wives.
Genesis 16:1-4
Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai ... gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived.
12
This is nothing like abortion. Abortion debates will always hit a wall because one party considers it the slaughter of infants. When I was young, Catholic, and anti choice, my sincere belief about millions of dead babies wasn't going to be influenced by stare decisis or arguments about bodily autonomy. Because dead babies.
Gay marriage on the other hand doesn't have any of this emotional weight except for extreme homophobes. Even "eww gross" is nothing like the moral outrage over legal infanticide.
Gay marriage on the other hand doesn't have any of this emotional weight except for extreme homophobes. Even "eww gross" is nothing like the moral outrage over legal infanticide.
13
"In redefining marriage to include same-sex couples, what you’re doing is you’re excluding the norm of sexual complementarity," said Mr. Anderson, the Heritage Foundation fellow. "Once you exclude that norm, the three other norms — which are monogamy, sexual exclusivity and permanency — become optional as well."
I have news for Mr. Anderson: heterosexual couple have regarded monogamy, sexual exclusivity and permanency as optional for quite some time. Witness the marriages of conservative standard-bearers (and marriage equality opponents) such as David Vitter, Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh. They were seeing prostitutes and/or divorcing wives long before gay marriage was legal anywhere in this country.
I have news for Mr. Anderson: heterosexual couple have regarded monogamy, sexual exclusivity and permanency as optional for quite some time. Witness the marriages of conservative standard-bearers (and marriage equality opponents) such as David Vitter, Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh. They were seeing prostitutes and/or divorcing wives long before gay marriage was legal anywhere in this country.
14
@11, Fred Clark at Slacktivist has been running a series on "Biblical Families" for years, and it's a lot weirder and creepier than just polygamy. There's also this:
I would ask these Young Republicans who are so sure that their Kampf is going to be just like the abortion fight how the struggle against mixed-race marriage is going these days. That's a much better analogy.
“Concubines.” Look it up. Get out a concordance and do a good old-fashioned evangelical word study. The Bible is teeming with concubines. The Bible is filled with men who kept them, and whose keeping of them is presented as evidence of their prosperity and of divine blessing and reward for their righteousness.
I would ask these Young Republicans who are so sure that their Kampf is going to be just like the abortion fight how the struggle against mixed-race marriage is going these days. That's a much better analogy.
15
I love how these young people act as though focusing on some organic/mystical meaning of marriage is their new idea.
Sorry, troopers, this was Maggie Gallagher's big new idea in 2004-5 and she has pushed it like a mofo and people don't buy it because:
a. It is stupid; and
b. It doesn't accord with what straight people think about their own marriages.
Recycling Maggie Gallagher's failed ideas from a decade ago ISN'T REALLY GOING TO WORK. Just saying.
Sorry, troopers, this was Maggie Gallagher's big new idea in 2004-5 and she has pushed it like a mofo and people don't buy it because:
a. It is stupid; and
b. It doesn't accord with what straight people think about their own marriages.
Recycling Maggie Gallagher's failed ideas from a decade ago ISN'T REALLY GOING TO WORK. Just saying.
17
@12 Here's the problem with your "legal infanticide." You have to redefine the word "infant" to suit your sloganeering purposes. The "traditional" definition of infant is an autonomously air-breathing recently-born person. You know, one of those squally things that screams when the doctor swats it on the bottom just after it pops out into the world. A zygote, a blastocyst, an embryo, none of those are infants. They're merely a potential, God willing, and a mother willing to carry it and nurture it with her own blood long enough to find out what happens. God is under no obligation whatsoever to produce a live infant, or even a healthy embryo from your average blastocyst, and neither should we require a woman to bear it if she doesn't want to.
18
They believe marriage (and normalcy) is defined by the church. We believe marriage (and normalcy) is defined by the state.
I am sure some of these kids are against gay marriage only because it's the latest change to marriage implemented by the state and not the church.
I am sure some of these kids are against gay marriage only because it's the latest change to marriage implemented by the state and not the church.
19
I propose a new method to fighting the anti-gay marriage bigots. Anytime someone expresses that sentiment, just punch em in the face, wether a 25 y/o NFL linebacker, a 5 y/o child, or your own 93 y/o grandmother, just punch em.
Tell em it is god's will.
Tell em it is god's will.
20
this is what you get when you combine the idealism of youth with the dogma of religious bigotry. truly astounding the depth of their denial. then again, i live on capitol hill. i wouldn't say i have a "traditional" world view.
21
@12: The really disingenuous part is that the Bible says that abortion ISN'T infanticide. It says right there in Exodus 21:22-25 that if a man causes a pregnant woman to miscarry, but doesn't harm her otherwise, he has to pay a fine, but serious injury or death is to be repaid in kind. Entirely different offenses.
22
What is up with all this Gay-bully shit lately?
Are there gay gangs too? Do they wear a rainbow-colored handkerchiefs out of their pockets?
What does the gay gang-sign look like?
Are there gay gangs too? Do they wear a rainbow-colored handkerchiefs out of their pockets?
What does the gay gang-sign look like?
24
@22, you really are the stupidest person in the universe, aren't you? It's like you're out of central casting or something -- "we need a typical fat old white racist homophobe, IQ about 60. Yeah, Whoopi Goldberg profile pic, that'd be perfect".
25
@22: In the gay community, handkerchiefs don't advertise your street affiliations so much as your sexual preferences.
26
21
Entirely different.
Like how accidentally causing a miscarriage is Entirely Different from paying someone to kill your baby?
Like That?
Does your post come with a big red nose and floppy shoes?
Entirely different.
Like how accidentally causing a miscarriage is Entirely Different from paying someone to kill your baby?
Like That?
Does your post come with a big red nose and floppy shoes?
28
@17 Good point about the "traditional" definition of "infant."
Personally, I think that abortion keeps hitting the wall because people are inherently, on a gut-check species-instinct level, kind of emotionally conflicted about it. It seems wrong to end a viable pregnancy. It seems wrong to not be able to control rate and timing of reproduction. Either extreme -- all babies or no babies -- threatens the survival of the group. So we sort of hem and haw and dance our way around it.
By keeping their rhetoric carefully wishy-washy and "reasonable" sounding (rape and incest exceptions, for example), the pro-life crew has managed to get a lot of people who just kinda, you know, feel a little squicky about abortion, to go along with their schemes. But I think with the last election cycle they started to lose control of the debate. People AREN'T inherently conflicted about birth control -- they're for it. People AREN'T inherently conflicted about rape -- they're against it. So I think more of the the just-kinda-uncomfortable crowd are latching onto the notion of "safe, legal, and rare," because they see the alternative as a bunch of hate-filled misogynist jerks and weirdos.
Personally, I think that abortion keeps hitting the wall because people are inherently, on a gut-check species-instinct level, kind of emotionally conflicted about it. It seems wrong to end a viable pregnancy. It seems wrong to not be able to control rate and timing of reproduction. Either extreme -- all babies or no babies -- threatens the survival of the group. So we sort of hem and haw and dance our way around it.
By keeping their rhetoric carefully wishy-washy and "reasonable" sounding (rape and incest exceptions, for example), the pro-life crew has managed to get a lot of people who just kinda, you know, feel a little squicky about abortion, to go along with their schemes. But I think with the last election cycle they started to lose control of the debate. People AREN'T inherently conflicted about birth control -- they're for it. People AREN'T inherently conflicted about rape -- they're against it. So I think more of the the just-kinda-uncomfortable crowd are latching onto the notion of "safe, legal, and rare," because they see the alternative as a bunch of hate-filled misogynist jerks and weirdos.
29
@26: Never says anything about accidental or not. It just says that the penalty for causing a miscarriage or premature delivery is a fine to the woman and her family, the amount to be set by her husband. Twist it however you like, the Bible says that abortion isn't murder.
30
I love how they delude themselves into thinking that their problem is "presentation". It's wishful thinking, magical thinking in fact, to suppose that if you just say the right words you can win. Their problem is that the issue has been considered and their position has been rejected on the merits. No phrasing is going to alter the practical reality that gay marriage is a good thing and that there is no rational reason to oppose it.
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