Slog
News & ArtsThursday, March 21, 2013
Crime / News / Character Study Newsflash: Murderers Are Assholes
Posted by David Schmader on Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 8:20 AM
So said T.J. Lane, the 18-year-old convicted of killing three students at Ohio's Chardon High School, to the families of his victims at his sentencing this week. From the Associated Press:
T.J. Lane, 18, had pleaded guilty last month to shooting at students in February 2012 at Chardon High School, east of Cleveland. Investigators have said he admitted to the shooting but said he didn't know why he did it.
Lane was defiant during the sentencing, smiling and smirking throughout, including while four relatives of victims spoke.
After he came in, he calmly unbuttoned his blue dress shirt to reveal the T-shirt reading "killer," which the prosecutor noted was similar to one he wore during the shooting.
At one point, he swiveled around in his chair toward the gallery where his own family members and those of the slain teenagers were sitting and spoke suddenly, surprising even his lawyer.
"The hand that pulls the trigger that killed your sons now masturbates to the memory," he said, then cursed at and raised his middle finger toward the victims' relatives.
Lane was given three life sentences with no possibility of parole, but I imagine his sassy mouth will get him slain in prison in no time.
4
@1: Gee how gracious of you, considering that some of the family members who lost their sons could be Republicans.
6
Or maybe they could report on the fact that this guy suffers from psychosis and hallucinations. You know, like he wasn't really mentally competent to stand trial for something he committed as a minor?
Or you could just mply your desire for vigilante justice against the mentally ill.
Or you could just mply your desire for vigilante justice against the mentally ill.
7
#6- I'm pretty sure he was evaluated and found mentally competent. The folks that did the evaluation probably weren't experts like you, though, who can properly evaluate a murderer's mental state through video clips and online articles.
8
I wonder if T.J. is another bullied kid who snapped and turned his hate and anger (and gun) on others instead of on himself. Such a fine line between being a poster child for an anti-bullying campaign and being an asshole murderer or "human piece of shit" as The Stranger called him yesterday.
9
@6: meh, one way or the other on this kid. he seems to fit the school killer profile (aggreived, alienated) more than the schizophrenic profile (Laughner, Holmes).
i'd have preferred the possiblity of parole in the sentence. even charlie manson got that.
i'd have preferred the possiblity of parole in the sentence. even charlie manson got that.
10
This is why I don't support the death penalty, and I hope he lives a nice long life. Decade after decade, in a tiny little cell, growing old confined, seeing the sky through the window and knowing he will never, ever get to be free.
And if it were someone I loved that he killed, I'd be sure to send him a Christmas card each year, just to piss him off.
And if it were someone I loved that he killed, I'd be sure to send him a Christmas card each year, just to piss him off.
12
I don't understand the desire of family/friends of the victims to be at the trial or speak to the defendant.
What's the point of telling an accused murderer that you hate them or pity them or pray for them or whatever?
Move on from the tragedy, let justice take its course, and let the guilty fade away into obscurity.
Giving them attention is probably what they want.
I just don't get it.
What's the point of telling an accused murderer that you hate them or pity them or pray for them or whatever?
Move on from the tragedy, let justice take its course, and let the guilty fade away into obscurity.
Giving them attention is probably what they want.
I just don't get it.
13
I saw the video of his statement and, honestly, it sounded like he'd been rehearsing it to sound bad ass. Unfortunately, it sounded very forced and "Oh shit, I gotta say this!!!"
But, hey, if he wanted to be a badass motherfucker, now he can spend more time with them in the future.
But, hey, if he wanted to be a badass motherfucker, now he can spend more time with them in the future.
14
@5
I, too support the the Death Penalty in this rare case where the defendant is unequivocally guilty and remorseless. While that is not to happen for Lane, to be given the Death Penalty, I remain satisfied that he will remain in prison the rest of his life. What an asshole.
I, too support the the Death Penalty in this rare case where the defendant is unequivocally guilty and remorseless. While that is not to happen for Lane, to be given the Death Penalty, I remain satisfied that he will remain in prison the rest of his life. What an asshole.
15
@12, I don't think the family goes to see the defendant. I think they go to the sentencing hearing in an attempt to influence the judge and to see justice being done. Seeing the killer being sentenced can help the family move on.
17
@ 12, that was a rather pointless comment. If you haven't had the experience, or really meditated on what it would feel like to lose someone you love, especially your child, to murder, then of course you won't get it. Also, given your past hostile opinions regarding children, I think you might simply be incapable of such empathy.
18
you can't reserve the death penalty for special cases; if you have it out there and have criteria for th special cases, you go through lots of trials and effort to weed out one special case from the many not special cases.
the death penalty is a govt. program that does not work, costs too much, serves to giveemployment to guards, judges, lawyers, shrinks, every time we do it we run up MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in attorney fees and costs for the MURDERER almost as if we are into causing ourselves more pain and loss; it ends with nine supreme court judges in washington state writing massive 200 page opinions going over every little thing in the case, another waste of time and effort. and we do make mistakes, whoops. if you take the death penalty you can't just take the cases in which it is deserved, you ahve to take the whole process which includes killing the innocent, kliling those set up by corrupt prosecutors, knowing NONE OF THIS produces deterrence, and all of it mainly enriches defense lawyers -- they are the ones getting the $300 an hour fees -- the govt. lawyers just get salaries. in fact, if you are a conservative, you'd be insane to be for the death penalty as it's govt. run amok in classic form; huge expense, no discernable benefit, lots feeding at the trough. most of all the killer who now gets an additional 15 or 20 years of fame and attention. time for us all to grow up and just have life with no parole, right?
the death penalty is a govt. program that does not work, costs too much, serves to giveemployment to guards, judges, lawyers, shrinks, every time we do it we run up MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in attorney fees and costs for the MURDERER almost as if we are into causing ourselves more pain and loss; it ends with nine supreme court judges in washington state writing massive 200 page opinions going over every little thing in the case, another waste of time and effort. and we do make mistakes, whoops. if you take the death penalty you can't just take the cases in which it is deserved, you ahve to take the whole process which includes killing the innocent, kliling those set up by corrupt prosecutors, knowing NONE OF THIS produces deterrence, and all of it mainly enriches defense lawyers -- they are the ones getting the $300 an hour fees -- the govt. lawyers just get salaries. in fact, if you are a conservative, you'd be insane to be for the death penalty as it's govt. run amok in classic form; huge expense, no discernable benefit, lots feeding at the trough. most of all the killer who now gets an additional 15 or 20 years of fame and attention. time for us all to grow up and just have life with no parole, right?
19
@12 - @15 is correct. Families seem to find some emotional benefit in having their say in court. My jurisdiction (in Canada) used to allow families to submit a letter, which would be read by the prosecutor. When that changed to allowing families to speak for themselves in court, the number of families who chose to do so doubled over the number that had sent letters.
If it weren't for statements by the family, a sentencing hearing would be entirely about the criminal with little to no mention of the victim; legally, it makes no difference whether the victim was a wonderful, much-loved person or a miserable asshole. But I think there's a huge value for everyone involved in the criminal system to hear from the family and know something of the victim.
If it weren't for statements by the family, a sentencing hearing would be entirely about the criminal with little to no mention of the victim; legally, it makes no difference whether the victim was a wonderful, much-loved person or a miserable asshole. But I think there's a huge value for everyone involved in the criminal system to hear from the family and know something of the victim.
21
Just a tragedy all around. I would be interested to know of this kid's childhood. Nobody becomes so mean without a reason.
22
I think plenty of people become so mean without a reason. But yeah, I think the kid is pretty clearly a grade-S troll, and probably severely mentally ill in some way.
23
@15,19
Hm, ok. I guess if it helps some people then more power to them.
I just personally wouldn't ever want to have anything to do with the defendant ever again.
Catalina's comment @10 is baffling... sending an xmas card? Why on earth would you want the killer to know that you can't stop thinking about him/her?
Hm, ok. I guess if it helps some people then more power to them.
I just personally wouldn't ever want to have anything to do with the defendant ever again.
Catalina's comment @10 is baffling... sending an xmas card? Why on earth would you want the killer to know that you can't stop thinking about him/her?
24
To @12's point, it's difficult to predict how I'd feel about speaking in court, either to influence sentencing or to affect the killer. But I recall the Green River Killer's sentencing: One after another, several family members stood up and told him through tears and trembling voices what a monster he is and how he'll burn in hell and so on and so forth. Stoically, he sat there through all of it until a kind old man with a Santa Claus beard and Mork suspenders got up and told Ridgway that he forgave him. Ridgway began crying. That was the only blow that landed. Not the vitriol and hate, but the forgiveness.
To the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO0eRFe-x…
To the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO0eRFe-x…
25
The fact that someone created a fan page about him and people are "liking" it is a trollish sign of the times.
26
I can not comprehend the minds of those of you who sit and visualize the torment of an imprisoned person and take joy in the pain and suffering of this particular other human. In doing so you degrade yourself to the level of the person you demonize and torture in your mind. The fantasies of punishment in your minds are similar to the fantasies of punishment expressed by the shooter. Don't let the assholes turn YOU into shit as well...;-D
27
If I was a relative of one of the victims I would take solace in the fact that masturbation will be the best thing he has to look forward to for the rest of his miserable life.
28
@23,26: I diagnose both of you with pathological poverty of imagination.
If someone had killed your child, and they were rotting in prison, the challenge would be not gloating over their misery. And I can completely see the point of Catalina's hypothetical card: "I want to remind you how fucked your life is, how it is that way because of something you did to someone I love, and how I take some pleasure or comfort from it."
If someone had killed your child, and they were rotting in prison, the challenge would be not gloating over their misery. And I can completely see the point of Catalina's hypothetical card: "I want to remind you how fucked your life is, how it is that way because of something you did to someone I love, and how I take some pleasure or comfort from it."
29
For an 18 year old to act in such a manner almost certainly means he was a victim of remarkable and nonstop abuse.
The thing with child abuse is, if left unchecked and untreated, it essentially kills whatever it is about humanity we call a "soul." This man is not an asshole, but a person who was molded into a cold, remorseless and blood-thirsty being by factors way beyond his control.
Internet trolls are assholes; this person was a victim who grew up to be a victimizer, which is how the cycle of abuse works. I am not saying he does not bear the responsibility of his actions, and does not deserve very second of that punishment, but it is foolish to think he was just some dick who was born that way and grew up in a vacuum.
Whoever made him this way deserves to share some of the blame, if not all of it.
The thing with child abuse is, if left unchecked and untreated, it essentially kills whatever it is about humanity we call a "soul." This man is not an asshole, but a person who was molded into a cold, remorseless and blood-thirsty being by factors way beyond his control.
Internet trolls are assholes; this person was a victim who grew up to be a victimizer, which is how the cycle of abuse works. I am not saying he does not bear the responsibility of his actions, and does not deserve very second of that punishment, but it is foolish to think he was just some dick who was born that way and grew up in a vacuum.
Whoever made him this way deserves to share some of the blame, if not all of it.
30
Buzzfeed informs me that Lane has fans online, including girls who think he's cute. I guess you could say they belong to team killer.
31
@29: The news stories report a history of abuse in his family. I guess the cycle of abuse is as good an explanation as any for his brutality. I do worry that the model, at least as understood at the TV talkshow, pop psychology level, can lead to pathologizing abuse survivors as being doomed to perpetuate the cycle.
32
@25 and 30,
These things aren't unusual. Richard Ramirez got fan mail in prison and ultimately married one of his "fans". I suspect any halfway attractive violent criminal who makes the news gets fan mail and love letters.
These things aren't unusual. Richard Ramirez got fan mail in prison and ultimately married one of his "fans". I suspect any halfway attractive violent criminal who makes the news gets fan mail and love letters.
34
The Judge shouldn't allowed such behavior in his or her courtroom, in many ways, the murderer should had been in handcuffs and ankle bracelets, given he was already convicted for three serious felonies. He should had his statements prepared beforehand,and if he went off track, he should had been removed from the courtroom.
35
@30 Murderers will always have groupies. Scott Peterson had a huge amount of groupies for example. TJ Lane has groupies, mainly girls his age, who think they can understand him better than others, or feel they can connect to him. Besides for a groupie, it is kind of exciting to write to a cold blooded killer,and they can have the power to turn on or off the correspondence. In many ways infamy brings attention. I wouldn't really put a moral judgement on it, as much as it is a social phenomenon that is a by product of media attention.
38
@31: What gets me is that in all this talk about how to stop gun violence, how to stop rape, etc., no one ever mentions really doing something serious to combat child abuse and neglect in this country. Violent people who victimize others are almost always victims of child abuse, and if we could strengthen the prosecution of abusers and the outreach to the abused, violence of all types would drop quickly. People who have not suffered child abuse or childhood trauma very rarely become violent or antisocial.
@33: This is another symptom of the cycle of abuse. Abused women seek out abusers in order to repeat and relive their traumas (all people do this, not just women, but this is the example). So they are attracted to violent, unstable men, even if they do not realize it. Throw in the fact that he can not run off, and is essentially unavailable to only be idealized from afar, and you have the perfect mate for many women who have lived through abuse or trauma.
@33: This is another symptom of the cycle of abuse. Abused women seek out abusers in order to repeat and relive their traumas (all people do this, not just women, but this is the example). So they are attracted to violent, unstable men, even if they do not realize it. Throw in the fact that he can not run off, and is essentially unavailable to only be idealized from afar, and you have the perfect mate for many women who have lived through abuse or trauma.
39
@35,
That's an interesting point about the groupies having the power to turn off communication whenever they want. I wonder if criminals who aren't on death row or aren't serving life sentences get as much (or any) fan mail and love letters.
That's an interesting point about the groupies having the power to turn off communication whenever they want. I wonder if criminals who aren't on death row or aren't serving life sentences get as much (or any) fan mail and love letters.
40
The death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with deterrence or punishment. The death penalty is how modern society imposes revenge on the people who violate its rules, laws, norms, mores, etc..
In my experience, most people who oppose the death penalty have been generously sheltered from the true evil normal people bring to society.
@24 -- Ridgeway cried for reasons we'll never understand. It sure as shit wasn't because one of his victims forgave him. A man who can rape and kill and rape again while his adolescent son waits patiently yards away doesn't shed real tears contemplating another man's pain.
If our society can't exact revenge for the insults against it, what good is our society?
Schmader's expression of joy at the thought of this guy's long miserable life is also an expression of societal revenge.
In my experience, most people who oppose the death penalty have been generously sheltered from the true evil normal people bring to society.
@24 -- Ridgeway cried for reasons we'll never understand. It sure as shit wasn't because one of his victims forgave him. A man who can rape and kill and rape again while his adolescent son waits patiently yards away doesn't shed real tears contemplating another man's pain.
If our society can't exact revenge for the insults against it, what good is our society?
Schmader's expression of joy at the thought of this guy's long miserable life is also an expression of societal revenge.
41
@40: Lane was seventeen when he committed these murders. Do you support the death penalty for juveniles?
42
@40: "An analysis of Georgia cases showed that prosecutors were almost twice as likely to ask for the death penalty when the defendant couldn't afford a lawyer. Nationwide an estimated 90-plus percent of those arrested for capital crimes are too poor to retain experienced private counsel. In Kentucky, a quarter of death row inmates were defended by lawyers who were later disbarred (or resigned to avoid disbarment); other states are similar." - Cecil Adams, 2006.
Maybe if we exacted revenge indiscriminately across racial and socioeconomic lines. As is, most prosecutors won't even try for the death penalty if the defendant can afford a private attorney.
Maybe if we exacted revenge indiscriminately across racial and socioeconomic lines. As is, most prosecutors won't even try for the death penalty if the defendant can afford a private attorney.
44
@42 -- That's Georgia and Kentucky for you. And are you surprised to learn that we don't value poor peoples' lives as much as we value rich peoples' lives in our society?
@41 -- Yes.
@41 -- Yes.
45
I oppose the death penalty because no system of justice is perfect. Wrongful convictions happen, and there isn't much that can be done to rectify it when an innocent person is already dead.
Also, what zivilisierter Wurm said.
Also, what zivilisierter Wurm said.
46
@44: Of course I'm not surprised. What I'm saying is that the death penalty is completely untenable in a system that purports equality under the law. The harshest penalties require the most measured hand - clearly the justice system is inadequate to provide this fairly. If it can't be done fairly, it shouldn't be done at all.
47
The death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with deterrence or punishment. The death penalty is how modern society imposes revenge on the people who violate its rules, laws, norms, mores, etc..What @40 wrote here is entirely correct.
It's too bad too. Revenge is primitive. It's an inability to advance. Being stuck in a certain place in time, being controlled by the very person who committed the evil act.
But since human beings are primitive and barely, barely, more evolved than apes, it's not surprising at all that we act in such uncivilized ways.
48
@46 -- Is our justice system supposed to treat people equally?
Our justice system rests itself firmly on a "jury of peers".
Peers implies we have equals and we have people who aren't equals. Lords are judged by lords, serfs by serfs and all that.
I suspect you're upset we're killing people and using your name to do it. You benefit and suffer unequally in every way in this society. The death penalty can't suddenly become fair in a vacuum.
Our justice system rests itself firmly on a "jury of peers".
Peers implies we have equals and we have people who aren't equals. Lords are judged by lords, serfs by serfs and all that.
I suspect you're upset we're killing people and using your name to do it. You benefit and suffer unequally in every way in this society. The death penalty can't suddenly become fair in a vacuum.
49
Urgutha dear, after all of these years haven't you figured out that I am immensely childish and terribly passive-aggressive?
One never forgets those who die, especially when young and from foul play. (As I have mentioned before, I had a friend who was shot in the face while waiting tables when she was 21). I rather like the idea of sending a Christmas card to the killer and him knowing that while we are all out and about enjoying the season, there he is with another year of his life wasted, and that he will never know a Christmas where he is not behind bars.
It's better than those ghouls who make a party out of executions, you have to grant me that.
One never forgets those who die, especially when young and from foul play. (As I have mentioned before, I had a friend who was shot in the face while waiting tables when she was 21). I rather like the idea of sending a Christmas card to the killer and him knowing that while we are all out and about enjoying the season, there he is with another year of his life wasted, and that he will never know a Christmas where he is not behind bars.
It's better than those ghouls who make a party out of executions, you have to grant me that.
50
@40,
Don't you think this is kind of a blanket statement?
This may be true of some of the people who make a *moral* case against the death penalty. Not that it's wrong because innocent people may be executed or because it's not a deterrent or because it's too expensive, because it's supposedly wrong to kill people full stop. Doesn't matter what the crime was or how vicious the killer continues to be even after capture.
Many of those people probably are overly sheltered.
But I, for one, am not one of those people. I don't have a problem in theory with execution as a form of punishment for murder. I do have many problems with it in practice. Not the least of which is the fact that it costs many times more imprisoning the scumbag for life. So why not just throw him in a hole and let him rot? Why do we have to spend millions of dollars just to make the victim's family feel better? (Supposedly.)
In my experience, most people who oppose the death penalty have been generously sheltered from the true evil normal people bring to society.
Don't you think this is kind of a blanket statement?
This may be true of some of the people who make a *moral* case against the death penalty. Not that it's wrong because innocent people may be executed or because it's not a deterrent or because it's too expensive, because it's supposedly wrong to kill people full stop. Doesn't matter what the crime was or how vicious the killer continues to be even after capture.
Many of those people probably are overly sheltered.
But I, for one, am not one of those people. I don't have a problem in theory with execution as a form of punishment for murder. I do have many problems with it in practice. Not the least of which is the fact that it costs many times more imprisoning the scumbag for life. So why not just throw him in a hole and let him rot? Why do we have to spend millions of dollars just to make the victim's family feel better? (Supposedly.)
51
@48: No, I oppose it because we're killing people and wasting my money to do it. I'm not talking legal history here, but if you want to throw down then as of the 14th Amendment and the equal protection clause you're still full of shit. It's really pretty simple: in its current application, poor people are sentenced to death for capital offenses, while wealthy people are not. If you believe that constitutes equal protection, I can comfortably write off your opinion as a sociopathic shit-smear.
And as for minors - only the Congo, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, and Nigeria continue to execute people under 18. I suggest you move to one of those countries if you are so keen to stone 15-year-olds to death.
And as for minors - only the Congo, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, and Nigeria continue to execute people under 18. I suggest you move to one of those countries if you are so keen to stone 15-year-olds to death.
52
Ask Florida how that 14th amendment is working out.
Look. Some people deserve to die. I'm sorry, but that's how I see the world.
Look. Some people deserve to die. I'm sorry, but that's how I see the world.
54
I support the death penalty for people who would murder someone, then look the victim's parents in the eye and say they masturbate to the memory of it. Arguing against the death penalty due to the imperfection of our justice system in this context is pretty fucking silly.
55
If you support the death penalty, and one innocent person has been put to death by our courts (and trust me, it has to have happened), then you are complicit in a murder, and therefore deserve the death penalty by your own logic.
This is the paradox of capital punishment.
Killing someone because it makes you feel good is wrong. State sanctioned murder of another human who is of no danger to society is barbaric, and has no place in a civilized society. Our courts are imperfect, and should not be in the business of killing people.
No one deserves execution no matter what their crimes. The desire to kill people on this thread is pretty shocking, especially when those same people are talking about how horrible this person is for killing people.
Take a look at yourselves. Your bloodlust is no difference than his.
This is the paradox of capital punishment.
Killing someone because it makes you feel good is wrong. State sanctioned murder of another human who is of no danger to society is barbaric, and has no place in a civilized society. Our courts are imperfect, and should not be in the business of killing people.
No one deserves execution no matter what their crimes. The desire to kill people on this thread is pretty shocking, especially when those same people are talking about how horrible this person is for killing people.
Take a look at yourselves. Your bloodlust is no difference than his.
56
@55
Wait... I didn't say everyone complicit in any murder or accidental death willy-nilly deserves to die. I suggested society maintains the right to execute horrible people who take pleasure in doing really nasty, sub-human things to other people.
Accidentally executing the wrong person on death row is WAY different that intentionally causing pain to the families of the people you've just been convicted of murdering in cold blood.
Our courts are imperfect. If you hold the rest of us to your "never make any mistakes" standard, then we're much much much more guilty of imprisoning (the wrong) people for years / decades / lifetimes than we are of accidentally executing someone.
Of course, you don't get out of responsibility for those accidental and tragic deaths by simply shrugging your shoulders and saying "I'm against the death penalty."
Society killed those people in your name, too.
Wait... I didn't say everyone complicit in any murder or accidental death willy-nilly deserves to die. I suggested society maintains the right to execute horrible people who take pleasure in doing really nasty, sub-human things to other people.
Accidentally executing the wrong person on death row is WAY different that intentionally causing pain to the families of the people you've just been convicted of murdering in cold blood.
Our courts are imperfect. If you hold the rest of us to your "never make any mistakes" standard, then we're much much much more guilty of imprisoning (the wrong) people for years / decades / lifetimes than we are of accidentally executing someone.
Of course, you don't get out of responsibility for those accidental and tragic deaths by simply shrugging your shoulders and saying "I'm against the death penalty."
Society killed those people in your name, too.
57
@55, Yes, they did kill them in my name, which is why I do everything I can to repeal the death penalty, and why it saddens me to no end I am in a society that does so.
The difference is I hate having to bear that responsibility and you seem to enjoy it.
The problem you are having is you think you have a right to decide who deserves to die and for what crime. You do not get to speak for everyone. You want your government to kill citizens you find offensive and problematic.
Also, the families of people wrongfully executed suffer as well, their pain intentionally caused or not. They may not find too much difference at the end of the day. People in prisons have lives, families, and loved ones, as much as you do not want this to be the case. Makes it easier to be ok with murdering them, I guess.
I never said the courts should be abolished because they are imperfect, but perhaps their imperfection should invalidate their ability to leaven the worst, and most permanent punishment possible. Espeically when even a cursory glance at the statistics prove that the poor and minorities are executed at much higher rates.
People who have been wrongfully imprisoned for years may think differently about your idea that there is little difference between imprisoning someone for years and murdering them.
Your bloodlust is not much different than the killer here. You just want the state to kill the people you want dead, so you can avoid the moral problem.
The difference is I hate having to bear that responsibility and you seem to enjoy it.
The problem you are having is you think you have a right to decide who deserves to die and for what crime. You do not get to speak for everyone. You want your government to kill citizens you find offensive and problematic.
Also, the families of people wrongfully executed suffer as well, their pain intentionally caused or not. They may not find too much difference at the end of the day. People in prisons have lives, families, and loved ones, as much as you do not want this to be the case. Makes it easier to be ok with murdering them, I guess.
I never said the courts should be abolished because they are imperfect, but perhaps their imperfection should invalidate their ability to leaven the worst, and most permanent punishment possible. Espeically when even a cursory glance at the statistics prove that the poor and minorities are executed at much higher rates.
People who have been wrongfully imprisoned for years may think differently about your idea that there is little difference between imprisoning someone for years and murdering them.
Your bloodlust is not much different than the killer here. You just want the state to kill the people you want dead, so you can avoid the moral problem.
58
I don't think I have the right to decide who should die, but I certainly think I have the right to offer an opinion on the subject.
I am not sure what is so unreasonable about my opinion. I think people who are wrongly imprisoned should be let free. I think people who are on death row for crimes they aren't guilty of should be let free. I think people who commit heinous crimes but have significant mitigating circumstances which help explain their crimes should not be killed by the State.
But I also we should be allowed to execute people who commit heinous crimes, show no remorse, take pleasure in taunting the families of their victims and don't have significant mitigating circumstances explaining their lack of humanity.
ftfy.
I am not sure what is so unreasonable about my opinion. I think people who are wrongly imprisoned should be let free. I think people who are on death row for crimes they aren't guilty of should be let free. I think people who commit heinous crimes but have significant mitigating circumstances which help explain their crimes should not be killed by the State.
But I also we should be allowed to execute people who commit heinous crimes, show no remorse, take pleasure in taunting the families of their victims and don't have significant mitigating circumstances explaining their lack of humanity.
should invalidate our ability to leaven the worst, and most permanent punishment possible.
ftfy.
59
@58: If you think it is worth executing some innocent people so that you can have the pleasure of executing guilty ones as well, than so be it. I believe the position is unreasonable because there is no reason to want to execute someone other than desire to see them dead and comfort in the revenge feelings it brings you.
Simply put, I believe killing someone for the simple reason that you want to is immoral, and murder. Because that is what your argument is: I want certain people killed, and I want the state to do it for me. The death penalty deters no one, is extremely expensive (dedicated facilities, staff, years and years of appeals, special housing units holding inmates for 50+ years), and makes the eventual mistakes tragically permanent.
If the idea of many guilty people and a few innocent people being killed by the state gives you the warm fuzzies, so be it, but I do not think it is a very good reason to endorse state sanctioned murder of citizens.
A quick question: if you knew for a fact that a certain person committed heinous murders, and that person was chained to the ground in front of you, would you take it upon yourself to kill them? Would it bring you joy?
Simply put, I believe killing someone for the simple reason that you want to is immoral, and murder. Because that is what your argument is: I want certain people killed, and I want the state to do it for me. The death penalty deters no one, is extremely expensive (dedicated facilities, staff, years and years of appeals, special housing units holding inmates for 50+ years), and makes the eventual mistakes tragically permanent.
If the idea of many guilty people and a few innocent people being killed by the state gives you the warm fuzzies, so be it, but I do not think it is a very good reason to endorse state sanctioned murder of citizens.
A quick question: if you knew for a fact that a certain person committed heinous murders, and that person was chained to the ground in front of you, would you take it upon yourself to kill them? Would it bring you joy?
60
@58: Another quick question: how many innocent people being executed a year is it worth to continue to execute guilty ones? If you can not answer this question, I do not see how you can support the death penalty.
61
@Theodore, I'd be perfectly ok with a much higher standard of proof in order to get the death penalty, but I'm quite comfortable with the idea that this pile of shit in the article deserves it. I guess you're leaving the benefit of the doubt that he's not really guilty and this is some kind of sadistic performance art on his part?
63
And I cede the rest of the argument. If your morals say murder is always immoral then I got nothing.
You win.
You win.
64
When I watched the video of this kid, the first thing that came to mind wasn't, "What an asshole". It was more along the lines of, "That's really fucked up. What a sick puppy he must be". Having a loved one murdered seems like a horror beyond anything I can imagine, but so does being incapable of feeling any empathy, or being capable of such mindless violence. At least the people who lost loved ones were able to experience love in the first place.
65
@59: I would rather that the killing be done by someone close to his victims. But if they did not want to do the deed themselves, and the murderer showed no contrition, I would take the axe to him. Someone who slaughters the innocent and shows no remorse is no longer a person in my book, but rather something to be hunted down and dispatched.
66
@59
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
And I haven't been sheltered from the evils of humankind.
I would have liked my abuser to be judged and inprisonned for what he did, but although I will welcome his (natural) death, because of my conviction of humanity being better off with it, I would have had no joy in him being murdered by state.
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
And I haven't been sheltered from the evils of humankind.
I would have liked my abuser to be judged and inprisonned for what he did, but although I will welcome his (natural) death, because of my conviction of humanity being better off with it, I would have had no joy in him being murdered by state.
67
killing the killer doesn't bring anybody back. it doesn't change the outcome. to quote the dalai lama: "...if you sentence someone to death this implies that you have the belief that this person can never change, that this will always be the same person."
68
I think there are people who need killing, and I think fallible humans have no place deciding who needs killing and carrying out that killing, especially when the people thought to need killing are under control and no longer a danger to society. Danger to fellow inmates? Solitary confinement. Nothing more irreversible than lost time.
I am unwilling to accept any broken eggs to make this omelette.
I am unwilling to accept any broken eggs to make this omelette.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
It's Spring! Who's Ready for Street Harassment? by Cienna Madrid
-
New Gun Enthusiast... by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: Gonna Boil My Laptop After Answering This One by Dan Savage
-
America Doesn't Care About Black People by Charles Mudede
-
Bigot Florist Files Countersuit by Dominic Holden
-
US Military Grants Itself the Power to Police American Streets and "Quell" "Civil Disturbances" by Brendan Kiley
-
SL Letter of the Day: Living Discomfortably by Dan Savage
-
Slog Super Poll: Who Should Be Mayor? by Dominic Holden
-
Black Market Elimination Fail: Draft Pot Rules Call for Ban on Hash and Hash Oil by Ben Livingston
-
Tim Burgess Quits the Mayor's Race by Dominic Holden
Stranger Personals
The Stranger
RSSSeattle Art & Performance Quarterly
A complete guide to Seattle's current art, film, dance, and theater season.
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (68) RSS