Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, March 19, 2013
Guns Because Guns Make Us Safer
Posted by Goldy on Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 4:17 PM
Sixten-year-old Caleb Gordley was grounded for not cleaning his room. But, you know, he was 16, so he snuck out of his house to attend a party.
When he left the party about 2 a.m., Caleb needed to sneak home. His friends dropped him off and helped hoist him through a back window. But Caleb had been drinking and had gone to the wrong house. The brick homes on his street are similar, and Caleb was two doors down from his own.
The homeowner heard his burglar alarm sound, grabbed his gun and went to investigate. When the two met on the stairs inside the house, the man said he told the teen to leave and fired a warning shot, according to a law enforcement official with knowledge of the investigation.
Caleb didn’t stop, and the home-owner fired again, striking and killing the teen, the official said.
If only Gordley had cleaned his room like he'd been told, this tragedy never would have happened. But we're all safer for the fact that his neighbor owns a gun.
2
Well, ahem, I have a problem with drunk teenagers. And he was in somebody's home he had broken into AND the homeowner fired a warning shot. That doesn't mean he should pay with his life, but it's not a surprise that he did. Have you ever called the police to tell them someone is breaking in? I have and they told me there was a disturbance downtown and it would be at least a half hour.
6
@5
It could be legitimate, skeeter, but that doesn't mean it wasn't fucked up. Most of us, in the homeowner's situation, might be able to experience the dual feelings that we were scared shitless that there was an apparent break-in in our home as we slept and that we regret shooting the kid who lived 30 feet away.
It could be legitimate, skeeter, but that doesn't mean it wasn't fucked up. Most of us, in the homeowner's situation, might be able to experience the dual feelings that we were scared shitless that there was an apparent break-in in our home as we slept and that we regret shooting the kid who lived 30 feet away.
7
This doesn't quite tug the heartstrings like the stories about younger, sober children who are accidentally shot.
In fact, it's not hard to repaint this as a drunken hooligan attempting to assault a homeowner. "Caleb didn’t stop" - seriously? After someone discharged a firearm nearby?
In fact, it's not hard to repaint this as a drunken hooligan attempting to assault a homeowner. "Caleb didn’t stop" - seriously? After someone discharged a firearm nearby?
9
@5 Regardless of the victim's poor judgment, the shooter's rights, and your lack of empathy, this was an unnecessary death. The shooter may have legitimately felt threatened—and thus within his legal right to shoot—but he wasn't actually threatened. Assuming he'd never used his gun for legitimate self-defense before (and most gun owners never do), then this gun clearly did not make anybody safer.
A harmless kid is dead, and least partially because he lived in an armed society.
A harmless kid is dead, and least partially because he lived in an armed society.
11
The term "friends" should be used loosely in this story, as they clearly didn't know where their "friend" actually lived.
12
All firearms deaths are justifiable (and ancient). It is necessary for our freedoms to shoot as many people as possible wherever and whenever we can. It is your DUTY. This boy was guilty; we are all guilty. We all deserve to be shot, over and over. Why are you sitting here on Slog when you could be out killing people, as God intended?
13
you don't know the kid who lives 2 doors down the street? THAT is why america is fucked up. anomie.
other reasons: cookie cutter mcmansions, the South, another dead black kid.
other reasons: cookie cutter mcmansions, the South, another dead black kid.
14
If a drunken 16yo makes you fear for your life, you have mental health issues and shouldn't own a gun.
15
@9 bullshit. the kid was belligerent enough to break into the wrong house, disobey verbal orders, and ignore a warning shot.
This is just like CNN covering Steubenville, your eagerness to paint the agressor the victim is idiotic and misplaced. This drunk asshole committed B&E and moved toward a homeowner in what *any* reasonable person would consider an agressive manner.
This is just like CNN covering Steubenville, your eagerness to paint the agressor the victim is idiotic and misplaced. This drunk asshole committed B&E and moved toward a homeowner in what *any* reasonable person would consider an agressive manner.
16
I hope that congress will finally address the dangers of suburbs building all their houses looking exactly the same. I, for one, never trust the mental state who thinks architectural conformity is an appealing aesthetic for a neighborhood.
17
@11,
I had a friend in high school who lived on a street populated with cookie cutter homes. I got grief from him almost every time I stopped by to pick him up because I'd almost invariably drive by, not able to figure out which house was his. I guess, according to you, we weren't really friends.
I had a friend in high school who lived on a street populated with cookie cutter homes. I got grief from him almost every time I stopped by to pick him up because I'd almost invariably drive by, not able to figure out which house was his. I guess, according to you, we weren't really friends.
18
It's high time we childproof all of society, including our homes, to make them safe for drunk hooligans...
This is natural selection at work. I feel much worse for the homeowner than the dumb ass kid.
This is natural selection at work. I feel much worse for the homeowner than the dumb ass kid.
19
I'm not sure why everybody believes the gun owner when he says the kid ignored a warning shot? How drunk would you have to be not to react to that in some way? It sounds more like the owner shot at someone in the dark (because he was probably legitimately frightened) and it didn't turn out so well. He was totally within his rights to do that. It's still pretty fucked up.
20
Who the hell names their kid Caleb?
Anyone with half a brain knows that if you name your kid Caleb, he's gonna die an unfortunate and incredibly stupid death.
Anyone with half a brain knows that if you name your kid Caleb, he's gonna die an unfortunate and incredibly stupid death.
21
Gotta love the commenters painting the confused drunk kid as an "aggressor" and a "threat" and as deserving to die. And if there's a universal meaning of warning shots, I don't know it: like as not, there really was a warning shot, and the panicked kid didn't have the desired response to it, didn't correctly interpret its meaning. Do you know how you'd respond to a warning shot, stone cold sober? Would you even recognize it for a warning shot, rather than an attempt to kill you? Now try it drunk, disoriented, and halfway sure you're being attacked in your own home.
What the homeowner did was probably legal. You can see how it came about, how he might have thought he was doing the right thing. But it was terrible: he caused a human death, one that in no way needed to happen, and all because he had an incredibly convenient, incredibly efficient machine designed for the sole purpose of killing human beings. Our gun culture has traumatized the homeowner, who for the rest of his life will have to live with the knowledge that he killed a neighbor, a kid, and it didn't need to happen. It's not the same as the pain felt by the family and friends of the dead kid, but everyone in this sorry tale has been harmed by our gun culture.
What the homeowner did was probably legal. You can see how it came about, how he might have thought he was doing the right thing. But it was terrible: he caused a human death, one that in no way needed to happen, and all because he had an incredibly convenient, incredibly efficient machine designed for the sole purpose of killing human beings. Our gun culture has traumatized the homeowner, who for the rest of his life will have to live with the knowledge that he killed a neighbor, a kid, and it didn't need to happen. It's not the same as the pain felt by the family and friends of the dead kid, but everyone in this sorry tale has been harmed by our gun culture.
22
@17, every time I drive by one of those giant complexes in Tukwila or Bellevue or someplace, I thank my lucky stars I don't live in one, because every night I'd either be trying my key in the wrong lock, or tearfully calling Mrs. Fnarf and asking "Goddamnit, sweetie, are we in Building G or Building H? Plus I'd be having my car towed away from my neighbor's spot every night, so I wouldn't be able to get to work (these places never have mass transit for shit).
23
Goldy what the fuck is the point of this asinine post? The gun DID make the homeowner safer and he did nothing wrong.
24
@23: THE POINT IS: the gun owner was never in danger, it was only his next door neighbor's drunk kid, so he didn't need to be made safer. but the gun was already there, and the law says go ahead & shoot intruders, so it was the right tool for the job.
when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
25
@19,
I didn't believe it right away, but I assume a full investigation will reveal whether there's a bullet lodged in his ceiling somewhere.
I didn't believe it right away, but I assume a full investigation will reveal whether there's a bullet lodged in his ceiling somewhere.
26
@24 When you see a strange black male in your house at 2am you empty the magazine and ask questions later. You can bet your life on him being in the wrong house but I'm not.
27
So Goldstein are you saying society would be safer if we allowed drunks to break into our houses in the middle of the night?
28
@5 C'mon 5280 - how many gun defence courses advocate a 'warning' shot? That is exactly where this shooting goes wrong.
By feeling secure enough to provide warning, the shooter weakens his position that there was imminent danger. So, more to come as the investigation continues.
By feeling secure enough to provide warning, the shooter weakens his position that there was imminent danger. So, more to come as the investigation continues.
29
@24:
It may or may not apply to this instance, but those statements don't logically flow from one another.
the gun owner was never in danger, it was only his next door neighbor's drunk kid, so he didn't need to be made safer.
It may or may not apply to this instance, but those statements don't logically flow from one another.
31
I was never a big binge drinker, but once in my early twenties a friend invited me over to his new apartment to barbecue and drink and swim. It was a huge rabbit warren of a complex, with multiple linked three-story blocks with inward-facing balconies overlooking a pool in each block.
My buddy crashed after dinner, and I stumbled down to swim some more, then got out and went up some stairs and around some corners... and walked right into someone else's apartment.
Fortunately the occupant was another young guy passed out on his couch opposite the front door.
Never occurred to me until now I could have died that night.
My buddy crashed after dinner, and I stumbled down to swim some more, then got out and went up some stairs and around some corners... and walked right into someone else's apartment.
Fortunately the occupant was another young guy passed out on his couch opposite the front door.
Never occurred to me until now I could have died that night.
32
@31 it never occurred to me how many people are pretty much totally OK and/or blase about how this scenario ended up. There is a classic Russian movie where the plot is exactly the same situation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irony_o…
I guess the modern American version of that movie would be a lot shorter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Irony_o…
I guess the modern American version of that movie would be a lot shorter.
33
Assuming that everything went down as described in the article, then this is a tragedy, and nothing that has a place in the discussion about guns. I don't think any of @9's points are supported by the known facts.
36
@ 14 How did he know it was a drunk 16 year old and not a dangerous criminal?
@ 17 A friend would have known the address, not been lazy.
@ 17 A friend would have known the address, not been lazy.
37
The weird thing is, even if I had a gun, and even if the police told me they weren't coming for me right away while somebody is breaking in ... if it was just me in the house ... I'd try to GET THE FUCK out of there. If I couldn't, I'd lock myself in (surely somebody who has the forethought to arm herself also has a lock on the bedroom or bathroom door...?). If he came for me and it came down to a confrontation, I'd still have a gun, no?
Never in a million years would it occur to me to go FIND this intruder and try to put myself in a situation to shoot someone. What if he came up behind me? What if he had an accomplice I didn't know about? What if he had a gun?
Yes, this person is breaking into MY house. But I'd rather lose some stuff than have to live with shooting someone, even a burglar. Jesus.
Does 911 normally advise you to stay put? Of course, we don't all trust 911, obviously....
Never in a million years would it occur to me to go FIND this intruder and try to put myself in a situation to shoot someone. What if he came up behind me? What if he had an accomplice I didn't know about? What if he had a gun?
Yes, this person is breaking into MY house. But I'd rather lose some stuff than have to live with shooting someone, even a burglar. Jesus.
Does 911 normally advise you to stay put? Of course, we don't all trust 911, obviously....
38
So from what I'm seeing on this thread, the standard gun-rights advocate position on a tragedy like this is "so what?"
Seems kind of callous.
Seems kind of callous.
39
Guns sure did make the homeowner safer! She appropriately stood her ground, using the “Castle Doctrine."
You are right for once Goldy ! Good job.
You are right for once Goldy ! Good job.
40
Guns sure did make the homeowner safer! She appropriately stood her ground, using the “Castle Doctrine."
You are right for once Goldy ! Good job.
You are right for once Goldy ! Good job.
41
@33 This story totally has a place in the discussion about guns. The stats are overwhelming that a gun in a house is far more likely to result in the death of an innocent person than protect you from danger. This is another instance of that.
It doesn't matter that there are stories of someone using a gun to protect themselves. It doesn't negate the statistical fact that someone with a gun like this guy is far more likely to have his gun result in an innocent death.
Whatever you blood thirsty gun nuts may say about it, this kid was innocent, as in without bad intent or even dangerousness. Having the shooting justifiable as self-defense does not negate the victims innocence.
You gun nuts see each shooting a justifiable because you see every dead person as someone who had it coming, if not them than their parents or some other BS justification for your fetish's fundamental purity of purpose.
I had a friend in the late 70s in a similar situation. Drunk teen breaks into the wrong house, completely delusional. Homeowner pulled a gun out, but realized the guy was totally drunk, so he went to the other room and called the cops. They came and hauled my friend away. In today's climate, the home owner might have felt it was immoral not to just up and shoot the incoherent teen drunk.
It doesn't matter that there are stories of someone using a gun to protect themselves. It doesn't negate the statistical fact that someone with a gun like this guy is far more likely to have his gun result in an innocent death.
Whatever you blood thirsty gun nuts may say about it, this kid was innocent, as in without bad intent or even dangerousness. Having the shooting justifiable as self-defense does not negate the victims innocence.
You gun nuts see each shooting a justifiable because you see every dead person as someone who had it coming, if not them than their parents or some other BS justification for your fetish's fundamental purity of purpose.
I had a friend in the late 70s in a similar situation. Drunk teen breaks into the wrong house, completely delusional. Homeowner pulled a gun out, but realized the guy was totally drunk, so he went to the other room and called the cops. They came and hauled my friend away. In today's climate, the home owner might have felt it was immoral not to just up and shoot the incoherent teen drunk.
42
@41 purity of purpose? Like denying the countless examples of a gun owner protecting themselves from being raped or murdered? In order to stay pure to your lefty pc horseshit (like pushing feel good legislation that solves nothing) you would comdemn everyone to a society where only predators have weapons.
43
Cracked-
Lots of words there, not a lot of meaning.
You are assuming that the "room-temp kid" was innocent.
Lots of words there, not a lot of meaning.
You are assuming that the "room-temp kid" was innocent.
44
@42 The number of accidental shootings and shootings of family members that would not have occurred if there had not been a gun in the house vastly vastly outnumber the number of instances of gun owners protecting themselves from home intruders. You can choose to own a gun for home protection and accept the way higher likelihood that it will end up being used to kill an innocent person, or you can lie to yourself, but it won't change the statistical facts.
46
@43 There is no one in the story suggesting that Caleb had any criminal intent, but you are suggesting it because you need all the victims to deserve to die to justify your weird-ass fetishism of this tool of death.
It was a fucking accident that wouldn't have happened if Caleb hadn't been disoriented drunk, and wouldn't have happened if the homeowner hadn't had a gun. But you gun nuts are so deep in your never give an inch justification and persecution complex that you can't even allow that the presence of guns leads to accidents.
It was a fucking accident that wouldn't have happened if Caleb hadn't been disoriented drunk, and wouldn't have happened if the homeowner hadn't had a gun. But you gun nuts are so deep in your never give an inch justification and persecution complex that you can't even allow that the presence of guns leads to accidents.
47
Any witnesses to Caleb "advancing" on his killer, or do we take his word on that? Some people just really want to pull a trigger. This drunk high school teen may have just shown up at one of those times.
The loss of this young man will hurt so many people for the rest of their lives; that has been my experience, anyway. The homeowner may indeed remain free.
I think it's easier to blame the victim. Who remembers every single stupid mistake they've ever made, especially as a teen? Easy to pretend that foolish, impulsive things we did in our own teen years would never have resulted in gunfire or death.
The loss of this young man will hurt so many people for the rest of their lives; that has been my experience, anyway. The homeowner may indeed remain free.
I think it's easier to blame the victim. Who remembers every single stupid mistake they've ever made, especially as a teen? Easy to pretend that foolish, impulsive things we did in our own teen years would never have resulted in gunfire or death.
48
Yes Cracked, and I will also keep knives in my kitchen, though I might accidently cut myself with one someday.
I'll just have to take that statisitcal chance...
Probably will keep my car too.
I'll just have to take that statisitcal chance...
Probably will keep my car too.
50
...and pulling vague statements out of your ass like concluding shootings you know nothing about only occurred because a gun was owned by someone involved. What are you omnipotent? it doesn't prove shit even if that was right.
51
@45 I know you can come up with a list. Like I said, you are willing to have a larger number of innocents sacrificed in order to have the possibility of protecting yourself. The sacrifice is worth it to you. I think it makes society more dangerous. Certainly, it makes any home with a gun in it more dangerous to dwellers and guests than they would be in a home without a gun.
52
@9
"Regardless of the victim's poor judgment, the shooter's rights, and your lack of empathy, this was an unnecessary death. "
What was that?
"... your lack of empathy."
And wasn't it you who chose the "sarcastic" headline?
"The shooter may have legitimately felt threatened—and thus within his legal right to shoot—but he wasn't actually threatened."
The drunk stranger had just broken into that guy's house.
Why don't you list all the mistakes that kid made that night which, combined, led to him being killed.
But you won't do that, will you?
You'll just blame the gun.
"Regardless of the victim's poor judgment, the shooter's rights, and your lack of empathy, this was an unnecessary death. "
What was that?
"... your lack of empathy."
And wasn't it you who chose the "sarcastic" headline?
"The shooter may have legitimately felt threatened—and thus within his legal right to shoot—but he wasn't actually threatened."
The drunk stranger had just broken into that guy's house.
Why don't you list all the mistakes that kid made that night which, combined, led to him being killed.
But you won't do that, will you?
You'll just blame the gun.
53
One minute on google:
"Another 2003 study, by Douglas Wiebe of the University of Pennsylvania, found that females living with a gun in the home were 2.7 times more likely to be murdered than females with no gun at home. "
from American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine: " it was concluded that homes with guns were not safer or deter more crime than those that do not. In fact, it was found that in homes with children or women, the health risks were even greater."
Another study found the same for the elderly.
So, it may be less of a higher risk for adult men (the primary gun nut demographic) in a home with a gun in it, but for everybody else it should be a deal-breaker.
"Another 2003 study, by Douglas Wiebe of the University of Pennsylvania, found that females living with a gun in the home were 2.7 times more likely to be murdered than females with no gun at home. "
from American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine: " it was concluded that homes with guns were not safer or deter more crime than those that do not. In fact, it was found that in homes with children or women, the health risks were even greater."
Another study found the same for the elderly.
So, it may be less of a higher risk for adult men (the primary gun nut demographic) in a home with a gun in it, but for everybody else it should be a deal-breaker.
54
@53: I can certainly see how correlation wouldn't necessarily imply causation in this case, though. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a woman who has applied for a restraining order is at a higher risk for violent crime than the general population. It also seems likely that she'd also be more inclined to own a firearm. It does not stand to reason that the firearm in this case is a contributing factor to her increased risk of violence, despite the correlation. The increased risk of violence is what effected firearm ownership.
Even so, I don't know how common that type of situation is, or if it's statistically significant. Did the article say anything about it?
Even so, I don't know how common that type of situation is, or if it's statistically significant. Did the article say anything about it?
55
I was in the neighbors shoes once, or at least my house mate who knew how to handle a gun was as the rest of us who had no idea how to handle firearms decided we did not want to know where the gun was. I woke up to 'stop or I will shoot'. Happily for all our sanity the kids from two doors down was not shot or killed.
Kid was wasted, helpless and confused, and had broken a window thinking he was locked out of his house. His Dad was over right after, and got the window fixed, along with the flowerpots on the elderly women's porch next to us that had been knocked over.
Later, my Dad told me that his Dad had a gun for a time during the roughest days for the family during the depression. When a neighbor making noise outside his window just going to his home, caused Grandpa to jump out of bed with his gun ready to fire, Grandpa decided he was too trigger happy to have a gun.
Competence with a firearms seems to be something that can be sorely missing.
Kid was wasted, helpless and confused, and had broken a window thinking he was locked out of his house. His Dad was over right after, and got the window fixed, along with the flowerpots on the elderly women's porch next to us that had been knocked over.
Later, my Dad told me that his Dad had a gun for a time during the roughest days for the family during the depression. When a neighbor making noise outside his window just going to his home, caused Grandpa to jump out of bed with his gun ready to fire, Grandpa decided he was too trigger happy to have a gun.
Competence with a firearms seems to be something that can be sorely missing.
56
Things did not occur as recounted by the gun owner.
Still, what a terrible mistake, by each of them.
Still, what a terrible mistake, by each of them.
57
@54
"Did the article say anything about it?"
This seems to be the link because it contains the sentence:
"Another 2003 study, by Douglas Wiebe of the University of Pennsylvania, found that females living with a gun in the home were 2.7 times more likely to be murdered than females with no gun at home."
http://www.mirrorofjustice.com/law-quest…
Read it and come to your own conclusion.
"Did the article say anything about it?"
This seems to be the link because it contains the sentence:
"Another 2003 study, by Douglas Wiebe of the University of Pennsylvania, found that females living with a gun in the home were 2.7 times more likely to be murdered than females with no gun at home."
http://www.mirrorofjustice.com/law-quest…
Read it and come to your own conclusion.
58
@54 I've heard a lot about this fantasy of women getting guns to protect themselves from domestic abusers. First, every single instance of suggesting this I've read as a general proposition has showed a profound ignorance of the psychological dynamics of domestic violence. Second, despite stories we hear, the domestic male killers most often are living with the woman at the time, the relationship which would be included in the subjects of the studies I referred to. Example, that football player who killed his partner a while back. The instance of a male gun owner ignoring a restraining order just makes for a more interesting news story than the man shooting the woman in the living room, especially since so many people celebrate court ineffectiveness in order to support one argument or another, but it is also another example of why easy gun access make situations so much more lethal.
Furthermore, you have done it again, taken the group most likely to be victims and responded with a hypothetical to explain the whole thing as their fault. Face it. The man of the house is buying most of the guns, but the women, children and elderly are dying disproportionally when a gun is present.
Furthermore, you have done it again, taken the group most likely to be victims and responded with a hypothetical to explain the whole thing as their fault. Face it. The man of the house is buying most of the guns, but the women, children and elderly are dying disproportionally when a gun is present.
59
Without reading any comments first, i'm going to say that it's a terrible mistake, but i really don't blame the homeowner. Protecting your home, confronting the intruder, warning shot, and the threat is dead. Only 2 houses away, though. He didn't recognize the teen?
60
Here's what the boy's family said: "Between the darkness and him being under the influence of alcohol, his mistake turned into the ultimate tragedy."
There are many stories every day that show why reasonable gun control is important. This isn't one if them.
There are many stories every day that show why reasonable gun control is important. This isn't one if them.
61
@57 Thanks for linking. Yes, there was a kind of answer there. But not the answer to the actual question of @54, whether these women who get restraining orders AND guns are more likely to be harmed by the gun they have introduced into the home.
"In domestic violence situations, the risk of homicide for women increased eightfold when the abuser had access to firearms, according to a study published in The American Journal of Public Health in 2003. Further, there was “no clear evidence” that victims’ access to a gun reduced their risk of being killed." This quote doesn't distinguish between the killer living in the home or not living in the home, so it doesn't address the restraining order question.
I was trying to limit my comments to the question of the gun in the home killing someone in that home.
"In domestic violence situations, the risk of homicide for women increased eightfold when the abuser had access to firearms, according to a study published in The American Journal of Public Health in 2003. Further, there was “no clear evidence” that victims’ access to a gun reduced their risk of being killed." This quote doesn't distinguish between the killer living in the home or not living in the home, so it doesn't address the restraining order question.
I was trying to limit my comments to the question of the gun in the home killing someone in that home.
62
@59 and @60 . You are not wanting address the issue at hand. A gun in the home is way way more likely to cause an accidental death or lead to the death of innocent person than it is to protect against and intruder.
Bet a lot of people in the shooter's situation would be waking up in the days ahead wishing they hadn't had a gun. (despite gun nuts and racists telling him the 16 yo high school kid had it coming.) This guy probably never shot at anyone in his life for any purpose unless he was in the military. What a shitty big moment.
Bet a lot of people in the shooter's situation would be waking up in the days ahead wishing they hadn't had a gun. (despite gun nuts and racists telling him the 16 yo high school kid had it coming.) This guy probably never shot at anyone in his life for any purpose unless he was in the military. What a shitty big moment.
63
The gun is good. The gun shoots death and purifies the earth of the plague. Go forth and kill. Fnarf has spoken.
All firearms deaths are justifiable (and ancient). It is necessary for our freedoms to shoot as many people as possible wherever and whenever we can. It is your DUTY. This boy was guilty; we are all guilty. We all deserve to be shot, over and over. Why are you sitting here on Slog when you could be out killing people, as God intended?
The gun is good. The gun shoots death and purifies the earth of the plague. Go forth and kill. Fnarf has spoken.
64
@60 I'm not sure the issue here is a gun control question, but more a question of whether one of the justifications for gun proliferation is supported by the facts, and/or the question of whether the benefit of gun ownership is likely to outweigh the dangers. Personally, I would prefer fewer guns that don't have true hunting purpose. The other guns just spread around and increase the overall danger to me, my family, and others, while at the same time being used to justify the creation of a more militarized society.
65
Caleb's parents have forgiven the shooter, FWIW.
I wonder how many of the commenters here who are so blasé about this bit of collateral damage, the usual pro-gun suspects, have ever shot somebody, or seen somebody get shot, or have had a relative or friend lost to a gun. One thing is to talk about violent death. It's another to see it first hand.
cracked, I'm with you man, but I think part of the problem is that, in our fervor to prove our point, we have drained these stories of their humanity and reduced them to theoretical abstractions, legal technicalities. That's why I wonder whether our gun-fanatic friends have ever pulled a trigger on a person and then watched what happened. In real life, I mean.
I wonder how many of the commenters here who are so blasé about this bit of collateral damage, the usual pro-gun suspects, have ever shot somebody, or seen somebody get shot, or have had a relative or friend lost to a gun. One thing is to talk about violent death. It's another to see it first hand.
cracked, I'm with you man, but I think part of the problem is that, in our fervor to prove our point, we have drained these stories of their humanity and reduced them to theoretical abstractions, legal technicalities. That's why I wonder whether our gun-fanatic friends have ever pulled a trigger on a person and then watched what happened. In real life, I mean.
67
@62 & @64: you raise good questions, but Goldy's chosen example doesn't illustrate your point. In this situation, the gun owner was personally safer by having had the gun, and even the victim's family ackowledges the son was doing something horribly, tragically unsafe.
68
@62
"A gun in the home is way way more likely to cause an accidental death or lead to the death of innocent person than it is to protect against and intruder."
Except that in the example that Goldy posted, the gun WAS used against an intruder.
In that specific example, it was a series of bad choices by the kid that lead to his death.
1. Disobeyed his parents (cleaning room).
2. Disobeyed his parents (grounded but left any way).
3. Underage drinking.
4. Binge drinking.
5. Trying to sneak back into his house (but it wasn't his house).
While the guy who (apparently) believed that he was defending himself from a stranger who broke into his house does not appear to have done anything wrong.
Except that he used a gun which Goldy does not approve of.
"A gun in the home is way way more likely to cause an accidental death or lead to the death of innocent person than it is to protect against and intruder."
Except that in the example that Goldy posted, the gun WAS used against an intruder.
In that specific example, it was a series of bad choices by the kid that lead to his death.
1. Disobeyed his parents (cleaning room).
2. Disobeyed his parents (grounded but left any way).
3. Underage drinking.
4. Binge drinking.
5. Trying to sneak back into his house (but it wasn't his house).
While the guy who (apparently) believed that he was defending himself from a stranger who broke into his house does not appear to have done anything wrong.
Except that he used a gun which Goldy does not approve of.
69
I live in Ballard and I know all of my neighbors within 2 to 3 blocks from my house. How could someone who lives two houses away not recognize his neighbor's son? Oh yeah, he was black. I get it now. Must have been wearing a hoodie -- stand yer ground!
71
Goldy (#9), you pus-filled, seeping, stupid open wound on our society. the homeowner fired a warning shot, and the intruder kept coming. He was definitely a threat. You and your kind want to require homeowners to die first. Move your sorry ass back to wherever you came from, you pro-criminal motherfucker. And tell your best friends not to crawl in my window, because they won't get a warning shot.
72
I love all the swing-and-miss posts in this thread :D
The idea is not that the shooter was legally wrong or reacted weirdly - but that had the shooter not been armed with an object designed solely for the purpose of murdering humans, the child would have stumbled away with perhaps a few less teeth in his mouth instead of dying pointlessly.
The idea is not that the shooter was legally wrong or reacted weirdly - but that had the shooter not been armed with an object designed solely for the purpose of murdering humans, the child would have stumbled away with perhaps a few less teeth in his mouth instead of dying pointlessly.
73
#72, and if the intruder hadn't invaded someone's home and then ignored a generous warning shot, he'd be alive. Lesson: Break into someone's house, and you might die.
74
Gee Goldy, what should the homeowner have done in the middle of the night? Started a "Courageous Conversation?"
75
If I was the homeowner, I'd sue the kid's parents for the costs of the cleanup, and for my psychiatric bills.
76
#22
You know, that makes me think..I have lived in several places where "all the houses look the same" yet, I am always able to find mine by the tell tale signs that make each individual...the bit of trim, the hanging on the door, the car in the driveway, the view inside the picture window.
Ok, so he was drunk and somehow didn't notice, or maybe he just moved there. Then how did he get in the front door of his neighbor's house with no key? Did the kid not wonder why his own front door was open? Did his neighbor who brings a gun downstairs at the first sound of someone on the steps also leave his door open? Why...so he could ambush home invaders. Well...?
You know, that makes me think..I have lived in several places where "all the houses look the same" yet, I am always able to find mine by the tell tale signs that make each individual...the bit of trim, the hanging on the door, the car in the driveway, the view inside the picture window.
Ok, so he was drunk and somehow didn't notice, or maybe he just moved there. Then how did he get in the front door of his neighbor's house with no key? Did the kid not wonder why his own front door was open? Did his neighbor who brings a gun downstairs at the first sound of someone on the steps also leave his door open? Why...so he could ambush home invaders. Well...?
77
#76, the intruder didn't go through the front door. He went in the back window. In the middle of the night. The homeowner confronted him, fired a warning shot, and told him to get out. The warning shot has been confirmed by the police, who found the bullet hole in the ceiling. The intruder, who had broken and entered, kept coming.
Too bad the intruder died, especially given that he was just a drunken kid, but that's not the homeowner's fault. By the way, I got plenty drunk in my teenage years, but I never broke into anyone's house. Not even my parents.
Goldy is a piece of shit from the word go.
Too bad the intruder died, especially given that he was just a drunken kid, but that's not the homeowner's fault. By the way, I got plenty drunk in my teenage years, but I never broke into anyone's house. Not even my parents.
Goldy is a piece of shit from the word go.
78
I think Goldy's overarching point is that if I'm in my own home and I hear someone break into my house in the middle of the night and they start to come up my stairs and continue to advance after a verbal warning and a freaking warning shot... then I need to remember that I'm not the real victim here.
The real victim is the tragically misunderstood home invader and the world would be a better place if homeowners were banned from having guns to protect their home and family from burglars and rapists.
Seriously?
This is probably the stupidest piece I've read on The Stranger since Grant Cogswell said the McDonald's at 3rd & Pine was racist for playing country music to drive away crack dealers.
Hell, I'm a liberal and this is farcical bleeding-heart bullshit even to me.
The real victim is the tragically misunderstood home invader and the world would be a better place if homeowners were banned from having guns to protect their home and family from burglars and rapists.
Seriously?
This is probably the stupidest piece I've read on The Stranger since Grant Cogswell said the McDonald's at 3rd & Pine was racist for playing country music to drive away crack dealers.
Hell, I'm a liberal and this is farcical bleeding-heart bullshit even to me.
79
Are we 100 sure the drunken kid was trying to get back home and say... not doing B&E to score some loot from unsuspecting homeowner? The kid was in the wrong, drunk and break into a neighbor's house. We'll never know if the kid went in on accident or with negative intentions. Regardless, he was breaking the law and paid the ultimate price. His fault entirely. By his willful regard for his family and the law, he has forever fucked up his neighbor and his family. He deserves the Darwin award.
80
Well-said, @78, and thank you for that. Goldy has turned into a caricature. It's truly laughable.
I'll tell you one thing: If someone breaks into my house, I won't be firing any warning shots. And I won't be shedding any tears afterwards either.
I'll tell you one thing: If someone breaks into my house, I won't be firing any warning shots. And I won't be shedding any tears afterwards either.
81
@58: All I did was point out an example of a correlation where a causal link would not be implied, freely admitting that I had no idea how common it may be, and that the situation may not even be statistically significant, anyway. Then you immediately amp it up to 11 assuming that I'm a domestic violence apologist or some other nonsense. Not only that, but you also imply that I've done it in the past. Get a fucking grip.
I'll tell you what, explain to me how my post suggests that domestic violence is the victims' fault, and you get to win the thread, or whatever.
I'll tell you what, explain to me how my post suggests that domestic violence is the victims' fault, and you get to win the thread, or whatever.
83
The gun owner is a cold murderer and we have a dead 16 year old kid to support that claim.
He fired a WARNING SHOT? BULL FUCKING SHIT!!! The gun owner fucked up, and knows it, and is trying to cover their ass after the fact.
He fired a WARNING SHOT? BULL FUCKING SHIT!!! The gun owner fucked up, and knows it, and is trying to cover their ass after the fact.
85
Well, I guess it's good to know whose houses we can break into in the middle of the night with complete impunity. Not that any of them are likely to have anything worth stealing anyway.
86
cracked @41, I have a pretty solid record arguing in favor of sensible gun control measures. So it's ignorant of you to call me a gun nut. I neither own nor like guns.
But this post had no point, other than to inflame those who just want this to be a gun-free country, which is immature. We have a real problem in this country, and countless examples of shootings proving that we need to do better. This simply is not one of them, and picking in this gives fuel to the "THEY GONNA GRAB OUR GUNZ" fire when we need to smother that.
As I said, this is a tragedy. The boy made a series of bad decisions which led to his death. That's not to "blame" him, it's to bring this back to the facts. Nobody here would blame the car he was in if he'd ended up killed in an accident caused by his drunkeness. Nobody here has any good reason to blame the homeowner or his gun for this, either.
Now, how about getting back to ensuring that those with restraining orders have to surrender their guns, and waiting periods, universal background checks, and magazine restrictions?
But this post had no point, other than to inflame those who just want this to be a gun-free country, which is immature. We have a real problem in this country, and countless examples of shootings proving that we need to do better. This simply is not one of them, and picking in this gives fuel to the "THEY GONNA GRAB OUR GUNZ" fire when we need to smother that.
As I said, this is a tragedy. The boy made a series of bad decisions which led to his death. That's not to "blame" him, it's to bring this back to the facts. Nobody here would blame the car he was in if he'd ended up killed in an accident caused by his drunkeness. Nobody here has any good reason to blame the homeowner or his gun for this, either.
Now, how about getting back to ensuring that those with restraining orders have to surrender their guns, and waiting periods, universal background checks, and magazine restrictions?
88
83
Fucked Up?
How?
He is not in legal trouble.
The dead kids parents don't blame him.
How did he Fuck Up?
Fucked Up?
How?
He is not in legal trouble.
The dead kids parents don't blame him.
How did he Fuck Up?
89
Here's an update for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/poli…
This is definitely no "cookie-cutter" home, BTW.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/poli…
This is definitely no "cookie-cutter" home, BTW.
90
@ 89, no, but they're similar enough. Especially if you're drunk. Too drunk to heed verbal warnings and a gunshot.
http://m.washingtonpost.com/local/loudou…
http://m.washingtonpost.com/local/loudou…
91
@86 You ignored my first response to you. When a gun is present in the home an accidental pointless death is way more likely to happen than a home protection gun event.
You and the (other?) gun nuts keep trying to turn this point on its head by acting as if my argument is a personal attack on the shooter in this case, to the point of even making shit up about the drunk kid. I do not believe this shooter would have shot this kid if he had known the circumstances. He intended to defend against a dangerous intruder, but instead did something else. That is the definition of an accident, which is why no one is talking about negligent homicide or anything like that.
Upshot, I will not stop telling people that they and their families and anyone who comes to their house are way safer without a gun in the house. This is especially true for woman and any children they wish to protect. They should really stop listening to the justifications of their male gun owning significant others.
You and the (other?) gun nuts keep trying to turn this point on its head by acting as if my argument is a personal attack on the shooter in this case, to the point of even making shit up about the drunk kid. I do not believe this shooter would have shot this kid if he had known the circumstances. He intended to defend against a dangerous intruder, but instead did something else. That is the definition of an accident, which is why no one is talking about negligent homicide or anything like that.
Upshot, I will not stop telling people that they and their families and anyone who comes to their house are way safer without a gun in the house. This is especially true for woman and any children they wish to protect. They should really stop listening to the justifications of their male gun owning significant others.
92
#86 There is nothing that doesn't make the gun nuts say ""THEY GONNA GRAB OUR GUNZ" as they have been taught to do by their puppetmaster gun manufacturers who run the NRA. That is one of the key tenets of their code. As we see from the assault ban bill's failure, even overwhelming public support won't get a bill passed. We have to shine the light of facts and reality on the insanity inherent in their justifications. Women DV victims just need to get guns? Sheesh.
93
@ 91, I did see that. But this isn't an example of that. The homeowner had every reason to feel threatened - burglar alarm, an intruder ignoring warnings and continuing to come at you?
But YOU are ignoring MY comment, or skimming over it and cherry picking because you need me to be a gun nut when I'm pro gun control.
So - please - read @ 86 again. And keep in mind that this had nothing to do with assault weapons.
But YOU are ignoring MY comment, or skimming over it and cherry picking because you need me to be a gun nut when I'm pro gun control.
So - please - read @ 86 again. And keep in mind that this had nothing to do with assault weapons.
94
@91
"You and the (other?) gun nuts keep trying to turn this point on its head by acting as if my argument is a personal attack on the shooter in this case, to the point of even making shit up about the drunk kid."
So tour comment was not a personal attack despite your usage of the term "gun nuts".
"I do not believe this shooter would have shot this kid if he had known the circumstances."
Probably not.
But once you bring omniscience into a discussion you lose.
That is because the same thing could be said of the kid.
Or his friends.
Or parents.
Etc.
"You and the (other?) gun nuts keep trying to turn this point on its head by acting as if my argument is a personal attack on the shooter in this case, to the point of even making shit up about the drunk kid."
So tour comment was not a personal attack despite your usage of the term "gun nuts".
"I do not believe this shooter would have shot this kid if he had known the circumstances."
Probably not.
But once you bring omniscience into a discussion you lose.
That is because the same thing could be said of the kid.
Or his friends.
Or parents.
Etc.
98
@93 I have never said the shooter in this case is a "gun nut." I have not said he didn't have a reason to feel threatened. I am saying that if the home owner hadn't had a gun, that kid would be alive and he wouldn't have to walk around the rest of his life knowing he shot and killed the very ordinary high school kid down the street in an accident with no ultimate benefit to anyone.
The gun nuts appear to have no compromise position. They think the status quo is a compromise, as they have learned to think from their manufacturer funded NRA puppetmasters. The chances of freeing them from those psychological strings is practically nil, so the only way to change anything is to work around them. This does have something to do with assault weapons because home protection is one of the gun nut talking points for having assault weapons, and it is one of their most compelling arguments if unexamined.
The gun nuts appear to have no compromise position. They think the status quo is a compromise, as they have learned to think from their manufacturer funded NRA puppetmasters. The chances of freeing them from those psychological strings is practically nil, so the only way to change anything is to work around them. This does have something to do with assault weapons because home protection is one of the gun nut talking points for having assault weapons, and it is one of their most compelling arguments if unexamined.
99
@97 the kid being drunk isn't going to do anything to make the shooter feel better about the accident.
100
@ 98, he likely would be alive, but he could still have been severely injured if the homeowner had what I have (a dog and a baseball bat). If those were the only two options, I'm sure the kid would prefer the dog and the bat.
But this is where we need to be pragmatic. Break-ins happen. People are sometimes assaulted, raped, and/or murdered by intruders, not just robbed. Most people believe we have a right to defend ourselves, and we do in fact have the right to bear arms. That the intruder was, in this case, just a dumb kid who broke his parents' rules and was trying to avoid getting in trouble, isn't going to make a difference to anyone, because the homeowner did everything right. He wasn't some psycho looking for an excuse to kill someone, or else he would have just shot the kid right away, and probably multiple times.
That's the thing, so I'll say it again - the homeowner did everything right. All the other accidental shootings happen when the person with the gun does something wrong.
Goldy's larger point - that guns put the owners and their families at greater risk, statistically speaking - isn't supported by this. Someone who wasn't a criminal ended up intruding a neighbor's house and was tragically killed, because he was apparently too drunk to know what was going on. It's sad, but it's not a five year old finding a loaded gun and killing himself or a friend or sibling or parent with it. It's not a gun bought for "protection" but instead used in a murder-suicide.
If the parents aren't blaming the neighbor, I think that even those who truly feel that this proves Goldy's point should respect that family's forgiveness and not make a cause celebre out of this.
But this is where we need to be pragmatic. Break-ins happen. People are sometimes assaulted, raped, and/or murdered by intruders, not just robbed. Most people believe we have a right to defend ourselves, and we do in fact have the right to bear arms. That the intruder was, in this case, just a dumb kid who broke his parents' rules and was trying to avoid getting in trouble, isn't going to make a difference to anyone, because the homeowner did everything right. He wasn't some psycho looking for an excuse to kill someone, or else he would have just shot the kid right away, and probably multiple times.
That's the thing, so I'll say it again - the homeowner did everything right. All the other accidental shootings happen when the person with the gun does something wrong.
Goldy's larger point - that guns put the owners and their families at greater risk, statistically speaking - isn't supported by this. Someone who wasn't a criminal ended up intruding a neighbor's house and was tragically killed, because he was apparently too drunk to know what was going on. It's sad, but it's not a five year old finding a loaded gun and killing himself or a friend or sibling or parent with it. It's not a gun bought for "protection" but instead used in a murder-suicide.
If the parents aren't blaming the neighbor, I think that even those who truly feel that this proves Goldy's point should respect that family's forgiveness and not make a cause celebre out of this.
101
I'm a little surprised that no one has offered any culpability to the adult that provided enough alcohol to a teenager that he couldn't even recognize his own house.
103
@100. A lethal accident that wouldn't have happened absent a gun. Just one more way it can happen. That's the point. It can happen, and be lethal, even when you do everything "right."
I don't think we are having an honest discussion of the risks, certainly from the public health standpoint we are not. Which is why the NRA worked hard to shut down public agency examination of the public health effects of guns. They don't want a fully informed fact based public discussion of the health risks associated with guns.
I don't think we are having an honest discussion of the risks, certainly from the public health standpoint we are not. Which is why the NRA worked hard to shut down public agency examination of the public health effects of guns. They don't want a fully informed fact based public discussion of the health risks associated with guns.
104
"Accident?" Wait a fucking minute, that was no "accident." The kid broke into somebody's house and got wasted for it. Do it to me and you'll get the same result, every time.
105
@ 103, I agree about the risks and how they ought to be addressed. Back when Goldy first posted that idea, I thought that was a brilliant stroke, and I still do. But pragmatically, if you want to illustrate the facts and figures with anecdotes, there are ones that will resonate much more strongly with the average citizen than this, because they aren't likely to see this as proving the danger of guns for the reasons I outlined. This will only resonate with people who want to eliminate guns, which as a goal is both childishly unrealistic and only able to give the other side a CONCRETE example that that's what gun control is all about.
If reducing gun violence is a political goal, it has to be pursued with a realistic strategy. Goldy has claimed that these posts are part of his strategy, but this one in particular has more potential to boomerang than to affect anyone's way of thinking.
If reducing gun violence is a political goal, it has to be pursued with a realistic strategy. Goldy has claimed that these posts are part of his strategy, but this one in particular has more potential to boomerang than to affect anyone's way of thinking.
106
@105 Dude, if Sandy Hook can't get you an assault weapons ban and a magazine limit, I don't know what will. It certainly isn't the Chamberlain in Checko approach. I wrote more, but I erased it. I'm done for this thread. @104's fantasy of having his own chance to kill drunk disoriented teenagers kind of beat me down.
107
@106 Because you know for 100 percent that the kid accidentally broke into the house and say... not break into his wealthy neighbors house for the sake of robbing? The kid ignored and disobeyed his parents, broke the law in two instances, and failed to understand a warning shot.
If the kid ignored his parents on cleaning his room and snuck out to party, whose to say this kid wasn't a criminal? And in his drunken stooper decided to rob a house? We won't know and we won't ever find out. A shame this kid decided to willfully ignore his parents and break the law and he paid the ultimate price.
But he deserves the Darwin Award.
If you do stupid shit, you could get yourself killed. This is has been true throughout human history.
If the kid ignored his parents on cleaning his room and snuck out to party, whose to say this kid wasn't a criminal? And in his drunken stooper decided to rob a house? We won't know and we won't ever find out. A shame this kid decided to willfully ignore his parents and break the law and he paid the ultimate price.
But he deserves the Darwin Award.
If you do stupid shit, you could get yourself killed. This is has been true throughout human history.
108
@ 106, have you seen what's happened in Colorado lately?
These things take time. If a battle has been lost, that doesn't mean the whole war has. You can't expect instant results.
These things take time. If a battle has been lost, that doesn't mean the whole war has. You can't expect instant results.
109
@ 107, um, EVERYTHING about the kid's life says he isn't a criminal.
I think Goldy is merely wrong to use this to advance the cause of gun control, but the bullshit coming from your side (fact-free attempts to recast the kid as a criminal) are just shameful. You'll end up making this a win for gun control after all, once you've repulsed everyone with those lies.
I think Goldy is merely wrong to use this to advance the cause of gun control, but the bullshit coming from your side (fact-free attempts to recast the kid as a criminal) are just shameful. You'll end up making this a win for gun control after all, once you've repulsed everyone with those lies.
110
Swing and a miss. Sure, this story has a place in the conversation about gun control, but I'd expect it to be coming from the NRA side of the discussion. All the details of the story fall by the wayside when you boil it down to one simple fact: The kid broke into the dude's house and didn't leave when he had the chance. Doesn't matter that the kid lived a few doors down, the guy had no clue what the kid was doing in his house or if he had a weapon himself.
I don't keep a gun in my home, but I do have a baton in my nightstand, and you can bet your ass I'll beat the ever-loving shit out of someone who threatens me, my family, and my home. I'm not going to fault this guy for choosing to keep a gun at home and using it justifiably in self-defense. Yes, this story is tragic and the death needless, but that tragedy rests on the shoulders of a dumb, drunk teenager. I've read far worse accounts of B&E gone wrong.
I don't keep a gun in my home, but I do have a baton in my nightstand, and you can bet your ass I'll beat the ever-loving shit out of someone who threatens me, my family, and my home. I'm not going to fault this guy for choosing to keep a gun at home and using it justifiably in self-defense. Yes, this story is tragic and the death needless, but that tragedy rests on the shoulders of a dumb, drunk teenager. I've read far worse accounts of B&E gone wrong.
111
i've known people so blind drunk that they peed in their closet thinking it was the bathroom despite someone yelling at them to stop. so i can see how this kid "kept coming", he probably thought he was going to his fucking bedroom.
apparently, the sentence for B&E in America is now death, with the sentence to be carried out immediately, sans trial. and remember that case where the exchange student knocked on a door in texas & got executed for that crime? trespassing is also an immediate death penalty.
can Slog's gun lovers foresee any situation where they might mitigate their response and not hand down a instant death penalty? nope, not even if it's the neighbor's drunk kid. he was black after all.
as Charles says, what a country.
apparently, the sentence for B&E in America is now death, with the sentence to be carried out immediately, sans trial. and remember that case where the exchange student knocked on a door in texas & got executed for that crime? trespassing is also an immediate death penalty.
can Slog's gun lovers foresee any situation where they might mitigate their response and not hand down a instant death penalty? nope, not even if it's the neighbor's drunk kid. he was black after all.
as Charles says, what a country.
112
Matt, stay tuned on "what's happened in Colorado lately." With 74% of the population opposed to these laws (Denver Post poll), they won't be with us for long.
113
@ 112, that's not coming up for me. Can you give me a link? (Or a quote directly from the article - that will help me find it.) I ask because the last poll I saw showed solid support among Coloradans for these bills.
114
Oh, hell, I'll never be able to find it on demand. The next time I run across it, I'll e-mail it to you.
115
I've seen Americans post about how backwards and primitive the Saudis are for cutting off a hand as a punishment to theft and now I'm watching them turn around and support a de facto death penalty for even being suspected of the same. I wonder how you reacted to Malala's attempted murder in Pakistan? Did you have more sympathy for a man who killed 20 elementary school children and his mental illness than the Taliban? The real lesson here is that it's OK for progressive Westerners to shoot and kill people, because they have their reasons, but everyone else is a monster. This kind of hypocrisy angers me. *Everyone* who defends gun culture as it is currently is culpable in tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths every year.
116
A B&E often involves much more than theft — that's why it's legal to shoot people who do it.
Oh, and it's not "tens of thousands" of deaths either.
Come back when you know what you're talking about.
Oh, and it's not "tens of thousands" of deaths either.
Come back when you know what you're talking about.
119
@27- Yes, I would say that. People get drunk and do stupid things. People would be safer if we didn't execute people for being drunk and careless. The homeowner's own account doesn't make it sound like the victim did anything to endanger him, only that he was frightened so he killed someone.
120
@ 119, good lord that's dumb. Most break-ins are not simple mistakes. And you think that a burglar alarm going off, and someone plodding on, ignoring a verbal warning and a warning shot, is "nothing that endangers the victim"?
With 20/20 hindsight, we know exactly what happened. But on that night, the homeowner had no reason to believe that the neighbor's boy simply got drunk and broke into the wrong house. Yes, the homeowner was frightened. But because there was someone who broke in and was not heeding any warning. You would be every bit as frightened if it were you.
You don't need a gun for protection - there are other options. But the homeowner did nothing wrong here. It's sad, but it would have also been sad if the boy had tried to drive home and went off a bridge and died, too. Some things are just tragedies and nothing more.
With 20/20 hindsight, we know exactly what happened. But on that night, the homeowner had no reason to believe that the neighbor's boy simply got drunk and broke into the wrong house. Yes, the homeowner was frightened. But because there was someone who broke in and was not heeding any warning. You would be every bit as frightened if it were you.
You don't need a gun for protection - there are other options. But the homeowner did nothing wrong here. It's sad, but it would have also been sad if the boy had tried to drive home and went off a bridge and died, too. Some things are just tragedies and nothing more.
121
@118, ~9,000 at last count. Which includes legitimate shootings. Don't think you're going to get far by throwing numbers around here; we've been all over this ground before.
123
#119, he wasn't executed. An execution is an orderly affair, usually done pursuant to law. This was a two-man melee, not an execution. And the kid wasn't killed for being drunk and careless. He was killed for breaking and entering in the middle of the night, and for disregarding a warning shot and a verbal order to leave.
125
11,078 firearm homicides in 2011. 11,670 homicides in 2010, across all races, genders and age groups reported to the CDC. 6,468 non-suicide violent deaths in 2009 in 16/50 states. Or are we going to pretend that guns are collectively being set up by Karl Rove's evil-liberal mustachioed twin?
127
@120 When an innocent person is dead, someone did something wrong. Being scared is no reason to pull the trigger. Actually being threatened is, and a blundering drunk who hasn't offered violence isn't a threat. Don't be a coward.
128
#127, he wasn't "innocent." He broke into someone's house, disregarded a warning shot, and didn't leave when he was ordered out. Too bad he's dead, but it was his own fault.
129
@ 127, sorry, but the boy broke and entered into someone else's house. He was badly mistaken, but he was not innocent.
I'm not so callous at @ 128 and others about it. It's a terrible tragedy and I wish the boy were alive. But you don't get to change the facts. The homeowner was threatened. The boy didn't mean to do it, but that was what he was doing.
I'm not so callous at @ 128 and others about it. It's a terrible tragedy and I wish the boy were alive. But you don't get to change the facts. The homeowner was threatened. The boy didn't mean to do it, but that was what he was doing.
130
It doesn't matter how "callous" I am. Maybe if Goldy wasn't such a boil on the ass of the body politic, and if we didn't have the usual weeping around here, I'd be nicer about it. No one can be happy about the kid's death, but to call the kid an innocent victim is complete horseshit. He was a drunken fool, and occasionally drunken fools die.
Hey, a lot of the drownings are caused by mixing alcohol, boating, and swimming. So should we return to Prohibition? And most of the rattlesnake bites happen when drunken 20-something males decide to try to pick one up with their bare hands. So should we kill all the snakes?
Hey, a lot of the drownings are caused by mixing alcohol, boating, and swimming. So should we return to Prohibition? And most of the rattlesnake bites happen when drunken 20-something males decide to try to pick one up with their bare hands. So should we kill all the snakes?
131
@ 130, No need for quotation marks around this word, because there's nothing ironic or incorrect about calling you callous.
Anyway, if you've been following what I've said closely, you'll know that I'm pretty much in agreement with you regarding this tragic incident, aside from the fact that I feel for both the kid and the homeowner. Goldy has not selected a good example to support his point.
Anyway, if you've been following what I've said closely, you'll know that I'm pretty much in agreement with you regarding this tragic incident, aside from the fact that I feel for both the kid and the homeowner. Goldy has not selected a good example to support his point.
132
I live not too far from where this occurred & there is that certain cookie-cutter sameness to many of the houses around here, from the apartments, to townhouses, & then right on up the line. When driving around I will often hum the theme song from "Weeds" - "Little boxes made of ticky/tacky / & they all look just the same." Bigger houses - McMansions - frequently exist in similarly-styled clumps. I believe both that Caleb was 100% well-meaning..he just wanted to go home! & as mentioned above, he sounds like he was a super young man..AND that the homeowner wishes he could have that 5 minutes back. But he can't.
I'm in favor of clearly-defined, evenly enforced, sensible, gun legislation, & I feel it's easier for someone to get killed in a house with guns than w/out. I've lived in some rough neighborhoods w/ only baseball bats for protection & felt mostly safe. Less so in VA, sometimes, ironically. Many of my pals here are gun owners.
Mixed feelings. Caleb's family seems to understand it was a horrible mistake. I wish for peace for all involved, & will read forthcoming information with keen interest. Definitely want confirmation of that warning shot.
I'm in favor of clearly-defined, evenly enforced, sensible, gun legislation, & I feel it's easier for someone to get killed in a house with guns than w/out. I've lived in some rough neighborhoods w/ only baseball bats for protection & felt mostly safe. Less so in VA, sometimes, ironically. Many of my pals here are gun owners.
Mixed feelings. Caleb's family seems to understand it was a horrible mistake. I wish for peace for all involved, & will read forthcoming information with keen interest. Definitely want confirmation of that warning shot.
133
You know, it's really easy: If you want to avoid "accidents" like this, just don't break into other peoples' houses. It's not that hard. In 61 years of life, I've managed to never do it even once. And yes, that includes plenty of times where I was pretty damned blotto.
135
#132, you should see the new crap they're putting up in Seattle. Just as cookie cutter as anything back there. In any case, the drunken kid wasn't "well meaning" when he broke into a house and disregarded a warning shot and an order to leave. He was criminal, and sometimes criminals die.
136
IF things happened exactly as the homeowner said, then yeah. Tragedy all 'round. If there was no warning shot or warning to leave, he was within his legal rights, just, that's morally dubious.
I have zero idea how I would have reacted. Not saying the homeowner's a bad person. But how quick people here seem to be to assume Caleb was *trying* to break in, that he was a criminal with intent - it's not an either/or thing. He coulda been a perfectly 100% normal fine kid, AND the homeowner within his rights to defend himself. Drunken hijinks aren't some huge failing on the part of a teenager, nor is defending yourself evil. Of course I wish he'd been able to shoot to maim rather than kill, & that he'd known his neighbors two houses away. Others have mentioned that already.
We as a nation are pretty quick on the trigger compared to others.
I don't think I ever walked into the wrong house by mistake, despite varying levels of drinking, but, also never lived somewhere where the houses all looked the same before. Used to get lost when coming down here to visit. In broad daylight, as a 30-something adult. If I was a drunken 16 year old trying to access my home via the back, I imagine that issue would be much more complicated.
I'd be sad if Seattle was adopting more cookie-cutter housing. When I visited a few years ago & fell in love with the city, its distinctive neighborhoods & buildings, its individuality, was part of its charms.
I have zero idea how I would have reacted. Not saying the homeowner's a bad person. But how quick people here seem to be to assume Caleb was *trying* to break in, that he was a criminal with intent - it's not an either/or thing. He coulda been a perfectly 100% normal fine kid, AND the homeowner within his rights to defend himself. Drunken hijinks aren't some huge failing on the part of a teenager, nor is defending yourself evil. Of course I wish he'd been able to shoot to maim rather than kill, & that he'd known his neighbors two houses away. Others have mentioned that already.
We as a nation are pretty quick on the trigger compared to others.
I don't think I ever walked into the wrong house by mistake, despite varying levels of drinking, but, also never lived somewhere where the houses all looked the same before. Used to get lost when coming down here to visit. In broad daylight, as a 30-something adult. If I was a drunken 16 year old trying to access my home via the back, I imagine that issue would be much more complicated.
I'd be sad if Seattle was adopting more cookie-cutter housing. When I visited a few years ago & fell in love with the city, its distinctive neighborhoods & buildings, its individuality, was part of its charms.
137
@ 135, there's that cold callousness again.
I think, inasmuch as any B&E can be called "well meaning," this one fits the bill. He only meant to sneak back into his home and go to bed. That's pretty well meaning - can you honestly say that it isn't? You think alcohol didn't affect his ability to perceive a verbal warning or warning shot, when it obviously affected his ability to know which house was his? (See my link @ 90 - the houses are similar, but laid out in a mirror image of one another. The kid didn't notice that the garage was on the wrong side of the house.)
Eva @ 136 is just about the only other person on this thread who gets it.
Eva, when you note "how quick people here seem to be to assume Caleb was *trying* to break in," you're noting how some people have that old "Make My Day" attitude that has already cost people like Trayvon Martin their lives. It's a depressingly common fantasy. Some people just want to legally kill someone. I think it's rooted in being shoved around as kids, perhaps even bullied. That happened to me, too, and I used to harbor resentments and revenge fantasies, but then I realized that forgiveness and compassion were much better medicines, and I moved on. But some people never get over childhood injustices.
I think, inasmuch as any B&E can be called "well meaning," this one fits the bill. He only meant to sneak back into his home and go to bed. That's pretty well meaning - can you honestly say that it isn't? You think alcohol didn't affect his ability to perceive a verbal warning or warning shot, when it obviously affected his ability to know which house was his? (See my link @ 90 - the houses are similar, but laid out in a mirror image of one another. The kid didn't notice that the garage was on the wrong side of the house.)
Eva @ 136 is just about the only other person on this thread who gets it.
...it's not an either/or thing. He coulda been a perfectly 100% normal fine kid, AND the homeowner within his rights to defend himself. Drunken hijinks aren't some huge failing on the part of a teenager, nor is defending yourself evil.
Eva, when you note "how quick people here seem to be to assume Caleb was *trying* to break in," you're noting how some people have that old "Make My Day" attitude that has already cost people like Trayvon Martin their lives. It's a depressingly common fantasy. Some people just want to legally kill someone. I think it's rooted in being shoved around as kids, perhaps even bullied. That happened to me, too, and I used to harbor resentments and revenge fantasies, but then I realized that forgiveness and compassion were much better medicines, and I moved on. But some people never get over childhood injustices.
138
#135, there is no such thing as a well-meaning B&E unless you're having a health crisis and the neighbiors break down your door. If some drunken kid breaks into your house and ignores a warning shot and the order to leave, it's modern art time.
You have no idea what was on the kid's addled brain. You figure that because he's young, black, and drunk, he must be not just innocent but a saint. I say he's target practice, and I wouldn't have warned him to begin with. Yep, I'm cold, callous, and horrible. If you don't like it, don't B&E at my place, and tell everyone you know the same.
MAKE MY DAY
GET OFF MY LAWN
You have no idea what was on the kid's addled brain. You figure that because he's young, black, and drunk, he must be not just innocent but a saint. I say he's target practice, and I wouldn't have warned him to begin with. Yep, I'm cold, callous, and horrible. If you don't like it, don't B&E at my place, and tell everyone you know the same.
MAKE MY DAY
GET OFF MY LAWN
139
@ 138, you may not have any idea what was going on in his head, but I'm more educated, experienced with people, and able to read than apparently you are. So I do have a very good idea what was going on in his head, and it's what I say it was.
I won't tell anyone not to B&E at your place, or any place, but I'll also warn people not to date you, as you're probably the jealous and insecure type.
I won't tell anyone not to B&E at your place, or any place, but I'll also warn people not to date you, as you're probably the jealous and insecure type.
140
Wow, @138 - "modern art time" - about another human being's life? Right, you are a totally calm & reasoned advocate for your position. The way you sound, bloodthirsty, is why people are gonna never be able to agree on how gun laws should proceed & lends credence to the idea that some people want a legal reason to kill another person.
I didn't know the guy shot him in the back, either. Caleb wasn't facing him or threatening him, he was trying to go up the stairs.
I didn't diss the homeowner. I agree that people have the right to defend themselves. Why do you have to assume the worst about this kid? Didn't you do anything dumb when you were 16?
Have fun making presumptions about what I think. I grew up in a rough, urban environment; I don't assume anyone's a saint. But as I mentioned, I live in this area, houses really do look alike, & if I was 16, drunk, & trying to sneak into my house & some other house looked just like it..maybe I woulda done the same thing.
My original opinion stands..this is a tragedy, & was a poor example for Goldy to have chosen for an anti-gun argument.
I didn't know the guy shot him in the back, either. Caleb wasn't facing him or threatening him, he was trying to go up the stairs.
I didn't diss the homeowner. I agree that people have the right to defend themselves. Why do you have to assume the worst about this kid? Didn't you do anything dumb when you were 16?
Have fun making presumptions about what I think. I grew up in a rough, urban environment; I don't assume anyone's a saint. But as I mentioned, I live in this area, houses really do look alike, & if I was 16, drunk, & trying to sneak into my house & some other house looked just like it..maybe I woulda done the same thing.
My original opinion stands..this is a tragedy, & was a poor example for Goldy to have chosen for an anti-gun argument.
143
@Eva, if you should happen to B&E my house in the middle of the night and disregard my warning shot and my order to get the fuck out of my house, your entrails will decorate my walls. And Washington State law will be 100% on my side.
As for your criminal friend being shot in the back, there's more to the story. This from the right wingnut Huffington Post:
"The sheriff's office said Thursday that the homeowner gave verbal warnings and fired a warning shot, but Caleb continued up the stairs. Caleb was shot in the back after passing the homeowner in a hallway and walking toward a bedroom where others were located."
But of course you are on the criminal's side. Fuck you.
As for your criminal friend being shot in the back, there's more to the story. This from the right wingnut Huffington Post:
"The sheriff's office said Thursday that the homeowner gave verbal warnings and fired a warning shot, but Caleb continued up the stairs. Caleb was shot in the back after passing the homeowner in a hallway and walking toward a bedroom where others were located."
But of course you are on the criminal's side. Fuck you.
144
Nice. I've consistently expressed sympathy for both parties involved, but you are hearing what you wanna hear. That's fine. The kid wasn't my friend. I'm just saying it's complicated.
145
@ 144, it's the complications that @143 can't handle. Everthing must be black and white, or Hulk get mad.
146
There's nothing complicated about this story. Invader B&Es a house in the middle of the night. Won't leave, ignores warning shot. He dead. Tough shit.
147
@ 146, yeah, except the fact that it was an innocent mistake. Whoops, now it's a bit gray, isn't it?
149
You don't know that it was "free of malice." It looks that way in retrospect, but until you're a mind reader you simply don't know. And if someone B&Es, disregards a warning shot and an order to leave, and walks past the armed homeowner toward a bedroom where other people are sleeping, he'd better be wearing Kevlar.
150
@ 149, I do know it was free of malice. Absolutely. Because I can read.
What have I been saying about the homeowner? Have you not paid attention?
Why do you enjoy this kid's death so much, anyway?
What have I been saying about the homeowner? Have you not paid attention?
Why do you enjoy this kid's death so much, anyway?
152
You people will never be happy. Two days ago a Ponca City OK man shot a home intruder in the ass 3 times with the cops on the phone.
NOW liberals are complaining three bullets are too many. Here's a quote: "You should protect your house, but if he was shot once, why continue to keep shooting?"
Are you people for REAL? Willfully ignorant. And It's their LIVES they're defending.
Last month a San Antonio mother defended her children in her home, shooting the home invader 5 times as he approached and he STILL was able to turn and leave the home and drive down the street.
Your fantasy is nowhere close to reality.
NOW liberals are complaining three bullets are too many. Here's a quote: "You should protect your house, but if he was shot once, why continue to keep shooting?"
Are you people for REAL? Willfully ignorant. And It's their LIVES they're defending.
Last month a San Antonio mother defended her children in her home, shooting the home invader 5 times as he approached and he STILL was able to turn and leave the home and drive down the street.
Your fantasy is nowhere close to reality.
153
I blame Hollywood, @152. For generations now, they've been showing us that people get blown out of their boots and sent flying through plate glass windows when they get shot. It's no surprise that people believe it must be true.
154
If you read through this thread, it becomes (once again) clear how much the usual Seattle types are all in favor of the criminals in this society, and want to abolish the right of armed self-defense. This particular case couldn't have been much clearer: someone breaks into a house in the middle of the night, disregards a warning shot and an order to leave, and advances toward a room where people are sleeping.
Yet, because the intruder is a young, unarmed, drunken black male, and the homeowner an armed middle aged white male, the homeowner is pronounced guilty by many commenters, while the intruder is pronounced innocent. It is this sort of "conversation about guns" that makes gun owners reject gun control.
Yet, because the intruder is a young, unarmed, drunken black male, and the homeowner an armed middle aged white male, the homeowner is pronounced guilty by many commenters, while the intruder is pronounced innocent. It is this sort of "conversation about guns" that makes gun owners reject gun control.
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