Slog
News & ArtsMonday, March 18, 2013
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: The Gateway Toy
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 3:49 PM
My wife is far more vanilla than I am and over the years our sex life has settled into one fixed routine: start by fondling each other 'til I'm hard and she's wet, then a few minutes (really, only 1-2 minutes) of missionary style fucking, then she roles over and we finish up doggy-style. We do this because she says that this position is best for her. I'm not thrilled with the lack of variety but after having my requests for more denied for many years, I've pretty much accepted that this is it.
The one "non-vanilla" thing about her is, she likes to have her asshole fingered. At some point she will ask or tell me to touch her "back there." I usually don't mind (in fact, it usually turns me on to do this) so I comply; however, sometimes I'd just rather not deal with the poo and somewhat awkward position and just focus on my own pleasure. And that's where the problems start. When I say I'd rather not, things come to a screeching halt while she asks me why not and makes it clear that I'm being selfish by refusing to pleasure her this way. So, for the sake of getting laid, I go ahead and do it. And this is really starting to piss me off. Here she is, refusing to do anything for me, barely interacting with me, but making demands on what I do for her. I think it's complete bullshit.
Am I wrong to not want to finger her butt hole every time? Am I being a selfish lover for saying so, and suggesting we skip it sometimes? Am I wrong for being angry with her for demanding this of me, while not being willing to do anything I want? And finally, how can I talk to her about this and get some kind of resolution, ideally, getting an occasional break from sticking a finger up her ass, and getting her to do more for me?
You Make The Clever Acronym
My response after the jump...
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
TMI alert, overshare dead ahead, etc.
BUY HER A BUTT PLUG!
Don't ask for permission. Don't suggest it. Just buy her a fucking butt plug. Buy her three plugs of varying sizes.
Really, honestly, and I'm speaking from experience here... if your wife likes a finger back there, she will LOVE a buttplug. And not only could a butt plug help you break through the no-variety/no-toys/no-kink barrier, it'll free up your poop-free fingers for other things. It might also free up your wife.
Please don't tell anyone I told you this because my husband is a very private person and he doesn't allow me to write about him or his butt in this space and I normally don't but I'm on a short getaway and I've had a couple of drinks, so.... shhhhh.... my husband was pretty sexually repressed when we met. He wasn't into toys, he wasn't into mixing it up. He was strictly gay vanilla. (Gay vanilla is just like straight vanilla but with lube nougat.) But! He loved having his ass played with. (Slightly naughty for you two, gay vanilla for us.) So I gave him a buttplug for his birthday. He wasn't happy. Actually, he was a little angry with me and with some cause. We'd only been dating for three months and I gave it to him at a party, in front of his friends, and... yeah, just a little angry. But later that same night, after he calmed down a bit, he decided to try it. And he liked it. Today he's a pretty sexually adventurous guy—and I'm convinced (and so is he) that we have his birthday butt plug to thank for that.
Yes, yes: your wife is being a selfish, inconsiderate lover. That's something you should be able to talk with her about, and it's something she should be able to see, but... yeah. For some reason this is a sensitive subject for her and she can't hear feedback/criticism without reacting defensively. Bitches be crazy and shit. (And not all crazy bitches are women. Plenty of crazy bitches out there who are men.) So I don't think telling her she's selfish and inconsiderate in the sack—or telling her that I told you to tell her she's selfish and inconsiderate—will result in her reacting any less defensively. So maybe some non-verbal communication is called for? And who doesn't like getting presents? And check these babies out—beautiful, easy to clean, and easy to tug on!
Here's hoping your wife has the same reaction to her new butt plugs that my husband had to his—meaning, here's hoping she likes her new buttplug so much that she starts to wonder what else she's been missing out on.
2
I do hope Dan asked Terry for his permission to run this.
I also hope Terry negotiated for something special in exchange.
I also hope Terry negotiated for something special in exchange.
3
Terry doesn't know! Don't tell Terry! Terry doesn't know!
Also, straight guy here. Buttplugs are awesome!
Also, straight guy here. Buttplugs are awesome!
5
Finally we get to talk about Terry and his ass. For anyone who hasn't seen it, Terry has a nearly perfect butt that is well presented by his clothing choices. Really, really fine, first-rate, perky ass.
6
Okay, it has to be said: There are few things hotter than the thought of gorgeous twink vanillaboy Terry being gradually (or maybe not so gradually) eased into kinkland by older kinkphile Dan.
I mean, seriously.
Okay, it has to be said: There are few things hotter than the thought of gorgeous twink vanillaboy Terry being gradually (or maybe not so gradually) eased into kinkland by older kinkphile Dan.
I mean, seriously.
9
One additional suggestion for Letter Writer: try having The Talk (you know, the big-picture one, about how it's unfair that she gets to demand things of you and regards you as selfish for sometimes being resistant, while she has spent the last decade blithely brushing off your every request) some time OTHER than when you are in the middle of fucking. I'm thinking maybe the following morning, subsequent to a really good shagging, when the warm-fuzzies-and-good-will balance sheet is running in your favor.
Not saying that will definitely work. But telling her no right when in the middle of sex when she's feeling horny and just asked for it? No wonder things come to a screeching halt. That'd piss off just about anybody.
Not saying that will definitely work. But telling her no right when in the middle of sex when she's feeling horny and just asked for it? No wonder things come to a screeching halt. That'd piss off just about anybody.
12
@8 Or even just making sure there are no "obstructions" and making sure it's clean if he's just fingering. Seriously, basic hygiene if you're asking your partner for anal stimulation.
14
11) Dan posted a vid of him playing a dance video at the neighbors house. You could hunt for that. Otherwise you have to stalk him for yourself. (Try any of the normal gay househusband haunts like downtown nordstoms or the salon)
17
"Dealing with the poo" sounds like they're doing it wrong. Someone get the LW's wife a butt play etiquette book.
18
Ahem. Terry's got some very interesting pics on his instagram account. Some of them very clearly prove the accuracy of Granny Smith's statements. Just saying.
Is it getting warm in here?
Is it getting warm in here?
19
Finger cots, finger cots, finger cots. Cheap, not medical-fetishy like gloves, not pre-lubed and wrinkley-oversized like condoms.
20
and yet,
despite his epically magnificent ass,
Terry can not keep Danny happy.
Danny insists on the right to cheat.
how sad.
how shallow.
how immature.
despite his epically magnificent ass,
Terry can not keep Danny happy.
Danny insists on the right to cheat.
how sad.
how shallow.
how immature.
21
20) you make the mistake of assuming a lack of happiness where only the desire for fun exists. Having desert isn't a condemnation of dinner.
24
Daniel: You are in trouble with Terry - and well you should be. And Booze is Never an Excuse for Bad Behavior. Sober up... and Shut Up. Duck, Dan! That frying pan is headed your way!
25
I second avast's proposal @9 to talk about this when you're not actually having sex. But personally I recommend the following process:
Part 1: On a good day, during a calm time, when you have an hour in front of you with nothing planned, mention that you'd like to have a serious relationship conversation. Some people will not be able to deal with waiting and will want to have it right then (which is why you only bring it up when you both have the next hour free). Other people will want to put it off, maybe with a hint as to the topic. If so, say simply, "it's about our sex life" and but get it scheduled it for sometime in the next week or so.
Part 2: Then give some thought to how to set the mood: make sure she's not hungry or sleepy, get her a glass of wine if that helps relax her, eliminate distractions like tv, iphones, or whiny children. Prepare your speech ahead of time, and bring notes if there's something you might forget or be too nervous to bring up.
Part 3: Have the conversation: "I'm not satisfied with our sex life; I would like more variety so that I can stay feeling interested and connected to you; I would like you to understand that sometimes I'm not in the mood for X and I don't want to be scolded for telling you how I feel," etc. Then encourage her to talk about how she sees your sex life and how she feels about your requests. Listen to her, and try not to get defensive.
Part 4: Evaluate whether she's able to appreciate your concerns or not. If so, continue the conversation (and, in the future, try to bring up these issues earlier so you don't build up years of resentment). If not, bring the discussion to a close and say that you'll be taking up the issue with a therapist and she's welcome to join you in that process if she's interested.
More...
Part 1: On a good day, during a calm time, when you have an hour in front of you with nothing planned, mention that you'd like to have a serious relationship conversation. Some people will not be able to deal with waiting and will want to have it right then (which is why you only bring it up when you both have the next hour free). Other people will want to put it off, maybe with a hint as to the topic. If so, say simply, "it's about our sex life" and but get it scheduled it for sometime in the next week or so.
Part 2: Then give some thought to how to set the mood: make sure she's not hungry or sleepy, get her a glass of wine if that helps relax her, eliminate distractions like tv, iphones, or whiny children. Prepare your speech ahead of time, and bring notes if there's something you might forget or be too nervous to bring up.
Part 3: Have the conversation: "I'm not satisfied with our sex life; I would like more variety so that I can stay feeling interested and connected to you; I would like you to understand that sometimes I'm not in the mood for X and I don't want to be scolded for telling you how I feel," etc. Then encourage her to talk about how she sees your sex life and how she feels about your requests. Listen to her, and try not to get defensive.
Part 4: Evaluate whether she's able to appreciate your concerns or not. If so, continue the conversation (and, in the future, try to bring up these issues earlier so you don't build up years of resentment). If not, bring the discussion to a close and say that you'll be taking up the issue with a therapist and she's welcome to join you in that process if she's interested.
26
Trollboy, nobody feels sorry for these guys. 18 yrs along, tight, healthy happy marriage? Successful careers, healthy kid? People are jealous of what Dan and Terry have. Stop being such a tiredass, boringass wet blanket, already.
Maturity is two adults deciding what works best for them over the long haul. After 18 yrs, proof's in the pudding, my friend. How long have YOU been with your gf? Hmm?
Trollboy, nobody feels sorry for these guys. 18 yrs along, tight, healthy happy marriage? Successful careers, healthy kid? People are jealous of what Dan and Terry have. Stop being such a tiredass, boringass wet blanket, already.
Maturity is two adults deciding what works best for them over the long haul. After 18 yrs, proof's in the pudding, my friend. How long have YOU been with your gf? Hmm?
28
Dude, if I were you, I'd refuse to fuck her again until she agrees to put on a more entertaining show.
29
Wife needs more fiber in her diet. I hope she doesn't have celiac's. (And @ 28 proves once again that he doesn't deserve to be laid ever again, but the patriarchy is in his favor so he probably will.)
30
I second @29's concern... I don't understand why he'd worry about poop fingers if she was making sure everything was clean down there before sex. o.o
@9/@25 are right, it's never a great idea to bring up potentially unpleasant or shocking information when everyone is horny and fucking or getting ready to fuck. Bringing up a discussion about how much your partner sucks at sex while having sex: That's Not Okay.
Also, he could try finding away to say whether a particular sex act is on or off the table before sex really gets heated, (maybe when they're making out and discussing what they want to do to each other) to lessen disappointment during sex.
@9/@25 are right, it's never a great idea to bring up potentially unpleasant or shocking information when everyone is horny and fucking or getting ready to fuck. Bringing up a discussion about how much your partner sucks at sex while having sex: That's Not Okay.
Also, he could try finding away to say whether a particular sex act is on or off the table before sex really gets heated, (maybe when they're making out and discussing what they want to do to each other) to lessen disappointment during sex.
31
I agree with other commenters. But(t) allow me to play devils advocate. What if the wife doesn't particularly like PIV and feels that her allowing it is already a concession? If she feels PIV is something she does for him, and FIB (finger in butt) is the thing he does in return, that might explain her attitude. LW should have the conversation a la @25 and should go into it assuming that she, too, is seething with resentment. No time like the present to start having frank discussions about their sex life.
32
"(Gay vanilla is just like straight vanilla but with lube nougat.)"
I thought gay vanilla was just like straight vanilla but with extra nuts? That's how I've always explained it.
I thought gay vanilla was just like straight vanilla but with extra nuts? That's how I've always explained it.
33
Um, I dunno. I realize one has to work at marriage, but she sounds just awful. One routine? No reciprocity?
I suspect if the LW looked at his marriage as a whole, he would see other examples of rigidity and selfishness.
I suspect if the LW looked at his marriage as a whole, he would see other examples of rigidity and selfishness.
35
@DRF: That's a good idea, but the real problem isn't poopy fingers, it's the fact that the wife is a boring, selfish lay who coerces her husband into thumb-fucking her ass.
If she did something fun every 2 or 3 months, like dress up as Wonder Woman or give him a sock-puppet handjob, husband would have no complaints about cleaning a little poo out of his thumbnail.
If she did something fun every 2 or 3 months, like dress up as Wonder Woman or give him a sock-puppet handjob, husband would have no complaints about cleaning a little poo out of his thumbnail.
36
Dan, don't post when you're drunk. It's not cool to share details that Terry doesn't want shared.
37
I suspect & hope that either A. this is wink-wink not allowed level? Like, he cleared it with Terry first? OR, B. that Dan will sober up & delete the parts about Terry while somehow keeping his advice to the LW.
38
There was just so much wrong with this letter and Dan's response. Jesus Fucking Christ both of them were in total TMI overdrive.
41
I dunno...she sounds like my ideal answer to the 'desert island' question: if I had to be stuck with just one routine, this would be pretty optimal. Have to agree, it needs to be expanded upon and the bitchy attitude addressed (somehow a plug seems, again, the ideal solution). Hubby just needs to quit complaining and start expanding the horizon.
Oh, and everyone complaining about TMI: really? Can this possibly come as a shock that Dan (who has raved about the nJoy before) and Terry like some anal play? I know it's not the gay hole, but fer cryin' out loud: what kind of sensibilities were offended here?
Oh, and everyone complaining about TMI: really? Can this possibly come as a shock that Dan (who has raved about the nJoy before) and Terry like some anal play? I know it's not the gay hole, but fer cryin' out loud: what kind of sensibilities were offended here?
42
@31 - remember dan's assertions, several years back now, that giving oral now "comes standard" and isn't part of an extra trim package? I'm going to go out on a limb that any couple with one (1) standard P and one (1) standard V, PIV "comes standard".
44
26
nobody in Slog's Danny Fanboy Cult of Personality, for sure.
however non-exclusive fuckbuddies who share a house is not a 'marriage'.
at least not the kind of Marriage that builds strong civilizations.
sure,
it may be what passes for 'marriage' in the Qunited States of Gommorica.
But that is a ten year old experiment on a steep greased slope
(LUBE! remember, LOTS OF LUBE!)
to the dustbin of history.
stay tuned.
.
Does anybody feel sorry for Danny?
Probably anybody who has ever been In Love does.
The notion that Danny's 'love' for Terry is not;
AND NEVER WAS;
strong enough to inspire even aspirations of monogamy is beyond heartbreaking.
The notion that Danny may be incapable of that kind of love equally so.
From what Danny says of homosexuals and homosexual fidelity and his feelings toward Terry one might surmise that homosexual 'love' is very different from heterosexual love.
does Danny imagine that getting a piece of paper from the state will transform his relationship into the kind of True Love heterosexuals are capable of?
that some Humanist civil servant playing the role of Blue Fairy would turn Pinocio into a Real Boy?
.
proof. and pudding.
careful there.....
if this pudding goes sour will that PROVE that homosexual 'marriage' is a farce?
if it goes bad will all the homosexuals surrender their marriage paperwork?
is that what you are saying?
nobody in Slog's Danny Fanboy Cult of Personality, for sure.
however non-exclusive fuckbuddies who share a house is not a 'marriage'.
at least not the kind of Marriage that builds strong civilizations.
sure,
it may be what passes for 'marriage' in the Qunited States of Gommorica.
But that is a ten year old experiment on a steep greased slope
(LUBE! remember, LOTS OF LUBE!)
to the dustbin of history.
stay tuned.
.
Does anybody feel sorry for Danny?
Probably anybody who has ever been In Love does.
The notion that Danny's 'love' for Terry is not;
AND NEVER WAS;
strong enough to inspire even aspirations of monogamy is beyond heartbreaking.
The notion that Danny may be incapable of that kind of love equally so.
From what Danny says of homosexuals and homosexual fidelity and his feelings toward Terry one might surmise that homosexual 'love' is very different from heterosexual love.
does Danny imagine that getting a piece of paper from the state will transform his relationship into the kind of True Love heterosexuals are capable of?
that some Humanist civil servant playing the role of Blue Fairy would turn Pinocio into a Real Boy?
.
proof. and pudding.
careful there.....
if this pudding goes sour will that PROVE that homosexual 'marriage' is a farce?
if it goes bad will all the homosexuals surrender their marriage paperwork?
is that what you are saying?
45
Dear Mr. Unregistered Writer of Blank Verse Who So Relentlessly Comments on Any Issue By Trying to Attack Dan's Marriage:
Why do you care? What personal stake do you have in this? If you want to comment on a particular letter, fine, but why are you so bothered by the details of the Savage/Miller marriage? Do you also care what brand of toothpaste they use? Does their commute routine affect you? How about their purchase/use of brand-name over generic paper tissue products or the tv shows they watch, or whether one of them can tell a joke better than the other, but that other always insists on telling the jokes when they are in social situations?
People write in to Dan asking advice, and not only does he give it, but others (including you) have the forum in which to weigh in; Dan advocates (as a lot of people do) for the rights of LGBT people to be able to legally marry whom they want--he doesn't say you have to like it, or you have to perform the wedding, or you have to get gay-married yourself. He doesn't care about your marriage and neither do any of the rest of us. You are free to marry, to have affairs, to get divorced, to have an open marriage. None of it is Dan's business, and I suspect that he cares about none of those decisions of yours. Why? Because it's your life, not his. He's not trying to force you to live the way he wants to live, or to model your marriage on his. HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE. So why do you care so very, very much about the details of his marriage? And how does the way his marriage works or not make a jot of difference in your own?
What's it to YOU how other people's marriage works?
Why do you care? What personal stake do you have in this? If you want to comment on a particular letter, fine, but why are you so bothered by the details of the Savage/Miller marriage? Do you also care what brand of toothpaste they use? Does their commute routine affect you? How about their purchase/use of brand-name over generic paper tissue products or the tv shows they watch, or whether one of them can tell a joke better than the other, but that other always insists on telling the jokes when they are in social situations?
People write in to Dan asking advice, and not only does he give it, but others (including you) have the forum in which to weigh in; Dan advocates (as a lot of people do) for the rights of LGBT people to be able to legally marry whom they want--he doesn't say you have to like it, or you have to perform the wedding, or you have to get gay-married yourself. He doesn't care about your marriage and neither do any of the rest of us. You are free to marry, to have affairs, to get divorced, to have an open marriage. None of it is Dan's business, and I suspect that he cares about none of those decisions of yours. Why? Because it's your life, not his. He's not trying to force you to live the way he wants to live, or to model your marriage on his. HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE. So why do you care so very, very much about the details of his marriage? And how does the way his marriage works or not make a jot of difference in your own?
What's it to YOU how other people's marriage works?
46
Dear NoCuteName:
Danny advocates radically changing the institution of marriage.
In ways that will have grave consequences for our civilization.
That is a matter in which all Americans have a stake.
And a voice.
Danny also holds out his relationship as a piece of evidence to support the changes he seeks.
(that is a poor idea, btw; his family's privacy should not be sacrificed in the interest of advancing his agenda and anecdotal evidence is worse than useless in formulating enlightened social policy but this is how Danny chooses to play the game)
We have never enquired about Danny's marriage.
Or baking habits.
Or anything at all about his family.
He is the one who chooses to dangle those precious tidbits out there for the FanBoys to swoon over.
If you are uncomfortable with the level of discourse about Danny's family (and you would not be unreasonable to feel so) you might have a heart to heart with him.
Danny advocates radically changing the institution of marriage.
In ways that will have grave consequences for our civilization.
That is a matter in which all Americans have a stake.
And a voice.
Danny also holds out his relationship as a piece of evidence to support the changes he seeks.
(that is a poor idea, btw; his family's privacy should not be sacrificed in the interest of advancing his agenda and anecdotal evidence is worse than useless in formulating enlightened social policy but this is how Danny chooses to play the game)
We have never enquired about Danny's marriage.
Or baking habits.
Or anything at all about his family.
He is the one who chooses to dangle those precious tidbits out there for the FanBoys to swoon over.
If you are uncomfortable with the level of discourse about Danny's family (and you would not be unreasonable to feel so) you might have a heart to heart with him.
47
@45
And it is everyone's business in society how everyone else's marriage/arrangement works.
Crummy marriages; as well as, and especially non-married domestic arrangements; have a tendency to create dysfunctional people who create huge social costs that we all must bear.
As Your President would remind you, we live in a village and all must look out for the common good.
And it is everyone's business in society how everyone else's marriage/arrangement works.
Crummy marriages; as well as, and especially non-married domestic arrangements; have a tendency to create dysfunctional people who create huge social costs that we all must bear.
As Your President would remind you, we live in a village and all must look out for the common good.
48
@14 will leave the stalking to you, Granny :-). But only because I live on the east coast.
I did see the video you mentioned. Interestingly, although I think both Dan & Terry are hot from the pics I've seen, in the video I didn't notice Terry's ass at all, was mentally focusing on what a happy family-time scene it was, how I'm glad not to have the responsibility of kids, although a bit sad to miss out on the joys of raising them (my own projection, happens whenever I see any parents w/ kids having a great time).
I did see the video you mentioned. Interestingly, although I think both Dan & Terry are hot from the pics I've seen, in the video I didn't notice Terry's ass at all, was mentally focusing on what a happy family-time scene it was, how I'm glad not to have the responsibility of kids, although a bit sad to miss out on the joys of raising them (my own projection, happens whenever I see any parents w/ kids having a great time).
49
Troll @20, @44, @46, @47: You are really fucking creepy, and completely illogical. Makes me glad I post under an alias.
What about heterosexual, M-F couples who are in love and have made a monogamous commitment -- about half cheat at some time. So their marriages were just a sham? Isn't it better to be open to the possibility of outside-of-relationship sex, so any sex-outside doesn't involve lies?
And surely you are literate enough to read wikipedia or a more scholarly source and realize that the type of marriage you're saying is essential for civilization is a recent development, and in biblical days it was one dude with money, a bunch of women who were treated as property. Hardly monogamous, except for the forced-into-sexual-slavery-wives. In Christian traditions the type of marriage you reference is relatively recent and again, not as it's actually practiced by most Christians.
In terms of social costs and dysfunctional people, that comes from crummy marriages, but monogamish marriages are not crummy. It's the unhappy, fight, cheat, divorce, repeat, that are the crummy marriages.
What about heterosexual, M-F couples who are in love and have made a monogamous commitment -- about half cheat at some time. So their marriages were just a sham? Isn't it better to be open to the possibility of outside-of-relationship sex, so any sex-outside doesn't involve lies?
And surely you are literate enough to read wikipedia or a more scholarly source and realize that the type of marriage you're saying is essential for civilization is a recent development, and in biblical days it was one dude with money, a bunch of women who were treated as property. Hardly monogamous, except for the forced-into-sexual-slavery-wives. In Christian traditions the type of marriage you reference is relatively recent and again, not as it's actually practiced by most Christians.
In terms of social costs and dysfunctional people, that comes from crummy marriages, but monogamish marriages are not crummy. It's the unhappy, fight, cheat, divorce, repeat, that are the crummy marriages.
50
Dear Troll,
Nothing shouts shoddy argument as easily as threats that accepting some social change will assuredly lead to the collapse of civilization. Especially when it comes to changes in marriage. The reality is that marriage is hardly the fixed institution you imagine. It's messier and more complicated to live in a society where all citizens can enter and exit(!) a marriage via their own choices, for sure. But I'll take that any day over arranged marriages, marriages where 1/2 are the legal property of the other 1/2, where divorce is so stigmatized that people are chained to miserable lives with abusers, and so on. Choice and equality will always win for me, especially since the individual choice of a person to get married or stay married or not stay married is none of my fucking business.
As for societal obligations and social harmony, you'd have much more credibility to my mind if you were writing to advocate social, political, and economic policies that encourage all people, regardless of orientation, to stay in workable marriages--sick leave, well-benefitted jobs, parental leave, child care, strong public schools, national health insurance, sex positivity, effective counseling, you name it.
Otherwise, all you're calling for is another Inquisition.
And doing so always suggests, to my mind, that you're most interested in demonizing others' sex lives to draw attention away from the demons haunting your own.
Nothing shouts shoddy argument as easily as threats that accepting some social change will assuredly lead to the collapse of civilization. Especially when it comes to changes in marriage. The reality is that marriage is hardly the fixed institution you imagine. It's messier and more complicated to live in a society where all citizens can enter and exit(!) a marriage via their own choices, for sure. But I'll take that any day over arranged marriages, marriages where 1/2 are the legal property of the other 1/2, where divorce is so stigmatized that people are chained to miserable lives with abusers, and so on. Choice and equality will always win for me, especially since the individual choice of a person to get married or stay married or not stay married is none of my fucking business.
As for societal obligations and social harmony, you'd have much more credibility to my mind if you were writing to advocate social, political, and economic policies that encourage all people, regardless of orientation, to stay in workable marriages--sick leave, well-benefitted jobs, parental leave, child care, strong public schools, national health insurance, sex positivity, effective counseling, you name it.
Otherwise, all you're calling for is another Inquisition.
And doing so always suggests, to my mind, that you're most interested in demonizing others' sex lives to draw attention away from the demons haunting your own.
51
@46: Your rationale is too weak to hold up. Do you also spend this much time obsessively commenting on all marriages that don't meet your ideal?
You appear to be obsessed with Dan Savage, his marriage, and his sexual arrangements. You then try to pass this obsession off as concern about civilization.
Your justifications, along with your quirks (calling Dan "Danny," writing in weird not-quite-versification, using the third person to refer to yourself, spending countless hours daily or weekly making the same illogical points) render you truly pathetic.
By the way, not all dysfunctional people come from "crummy" marriages (and who gets to define "crummy?" Maybe the people actually involved in a marriage should get to decide whether or not it works . Just a, you know, thought.) And not all "crummy" marriages yield "dysfunctional" people (again, I'm not sure what your definition is. Is it someone suffering from anorexia or low self-esteem, is it someone who yells a lot or has a hard time trusting a spouse, or is it only someone whose dysfunctionality directly effects society, like someone who robs convenience stores, or shoots people in an elementary school or a theater, or a rapist or the rapist's friend who, rather than stop a rape, takes video of it and puts that on social media as entertainment, or a Wall Street hedge fund manager?)
Some of the worst psychopaths were products of monogamous opposite-sex marriages, you know.
Some of the best people out there have begun from non-ideal beginnings.
You are entitled to your feelings about what makes a marriage good, but your arguments hold no weight whatsoever, and are a poor cover for your total, rather pathetic, sexual obsession with Dan Savage.
More...
You appear to be obsessed with Dan Savage, his marriage, and his sexual arrangements. You then try to pass this obsession off as concern about civilization.
Your justifications, along with your quirks (calling Dan "Danny," writing in weird not-quite-versification, using the third person to refer to yourself, spending countless hours daily or weekly making the same illogical points) render you truly pathetic.
By the way, not all dysfunctional people come from "crummy" marriages (and who gets to define "crummy?" Maybe the people actually involved in a marriage should get to decide whether or not it works . Just a, you know, thought.) And not all "crummy" marriages yield "dysfunctional" people (again, I'm not sure what your definition is. Is it someone suffering from anorexia or low self-esteem, is it someone who yells a lot or has a hard time trusting a spouse, or is it only someone whose dysfunctionality directly effects society, like someone who robs convenience stores, or shoots people in an elementary school or a theater, or a rapist or the rapist's friend who, rather than stop a rape, takes video of it and puts that on social media as entertainment, or a Wall Street hedge fund manager?)
Some of the worst psychopaths were products of monogamous opposite-sex marriages, you know.
Some of the best people out there have begun from non-ideal beginnings.
You are entitled to your feelings about what makes a marriage good, but your arguments hold no weight whatsoever, and are a poor cover for your total, rather pathetic, sexual obsession with Dan Savage.
52
@annonatroll: You know what will have "grave consequences for our civilization?" Poisoning the Earth's systems we rely on to eat and breathe, while the ignorant tax our resources with ever more ignorant loinfruit. Funny though, that's not a problem with gay marriage. So who's destroying civilization again?
53
Dear Troll: [rational argument]
Troll Response: "Bwarghig gsjgpoid Afoj sadfue !!!"
It's a troll people ... every time you engage it, it wins. It wants to control the conversation. If you ignore it, then it fails to do so. You will not change a troll's mind, because a troll has no mind.
Troll Response: "Bwarghig gsjgpoid Afoj sadfue !!!"
It's a troll people ... every time you engage it, it wins. It wants to control the conversation. If you ignore it, then it fails to do so. You will not change a troll's mind, because a troll has no mind.
55
51
please forgive us our many faults.
however, pathetic? moi?!
tell you what.
when we start boring you with the details of our BUTTPLUG gift choices you can call us pathetic.
deal?
By the way, not all ...........
Some of the worst ..........
Some of the best .............
as we said; anecdotals are a poor foundation for developing social policy.
please forgive us our many faults.
however, pathetic? moi?!
tell you what.
when we start boring you with the details of our BUTTPLUG gift choices you can call us pathetic.
deal?
By the way, not all ...........
Some of the worst ..........
Some of the best .............
as we said; anecdotals are a poor foundation for developing social policy.
57
@53: You are right, and I am sorry for taking up the thread with what I agree was a fruitless attempt to stop the crazy.
I don't generally take the bait, but sometimes I have the stupid idea that if you point out someone's illogicality he will see the light
I don't generally take the bait, but sometimes I have the stupid idea that if you point out someone's illogicality he will see the light
58
The babeland brand of plugs are great, too, and they're really affordable. http://www.babeland.com/pop-plugs/d/1501…
59
Troll aside, I think I know how can Dan repay the posting of Terry's intimate secrets: a new and even better buttplug!
60
@57 When I respond to a troll, it's not because I have any expectation of that troll reasoning or reasonably debating. let alone changing. I try to respond in a way that could reach others who 1. fear confronting bullies or 2. internalize some of the troll's points uncritically. I also think we honor ourselves when we speak our own truth, if you can forgive the namby-pambi-ness of that.
As for this actual letter, I am surprised that this guy's been fingering his wife's ass every go 'round without her stashing wipies by the bed, him putting a condom on his finger, or both of them trying to transition from his finger to other things, whether toys, anal sex, power play, etc. So, I'd try this gateway approach, and if no variety or reciprocity result, it's DMFTA time.
As for this actual letter, I am surprised that this guy's been fingering his wife's ass every go 'round without her stashing wipies by the bed, him putting a condom on his finger, or both of them trying to transition from his finger to other things, whether toys, anal sex, power play, etc. So, I'd try this gateway approach, and if no variety or reciprocity result, it's DMFTA time.
61
@53 so true. I usually skip the unreg. comments but sometimes they are non-trolls and interesting, and sometimes I can't help myself the troll makes me so upset and is so offensive / counterfactual / etc.
Hey butt toy fans, any advice on a prostate vibrator for those of us who do not like anal stimulation but do like prostate stim? I don't like any anal play / penetration, which kind of makes prostate massage difficult. Most vibrating butt plugs and prostate stimulators have the vibrating part in the base to provide anal stimulation too, and the aneros has to be twiddled around to stim the prostate which also requires anal stim. So, I'd like an prostate vibrator (flared base so it doesn't get sucked up, very narrow part for entering the anus, vibrates so I don't have to wiggle it) but the vibrating part entirely adjacent to the prostate. Any recs? Or recs on a vaginal dildo or other toy that would work well?
Hey butt toy fans, any advice on a prostate vibrator for those of us who do not like anal stimulation but do like prostate stim? I don't like any anal play / penetration, which kind of makes prostate massage difficult. Most vibrating butt plugs and prostate stimulators have the vibrating part in the base to provide anal stimulation too, and the aneros has to be twiddled around to stim the prostate which also requires anal stim. So, I'd like an prostate vibrator (flared base so it doesn't get sucked up, very narrow part for entering the anus, vibrates so I don't have to wiggle it) but the vibrating part entirely adjacent to the prostate. Any recs? Or recs on a vaginal dildo or other toy that would work well?
63
Trollboy, you skipped out on one of my main questions:
Are YOU "married"?
Have you even ever been in a relationship?
PS: Why are you not embarrassed by your obssession with Dan's marriage and love life? Because you truly come off jealous, lonely, resentful, and bitter - lashing out at him, day in and day out, like a fucking child, and it's just petty, and low, and small, and frankly embarrassing.
Seriously. Look in the mirror. Pick yourself up off the floor. Get some sunshine. Go find somebody to hang with, or exchange ideas with or fuck. You'll feel better.
Trollboy, you skipped out on one of my main questions:
Are YOU "married"?
Have you even ever been in a relationship?
PS: Why are you not embarrassed by your obssession with Dan's marriage and love life? Because you truly come off jealous, lonely, resentful, and bitter - lashing out at him, day in and day out, like a fucking child, and it's just petty, and low, and small, and frankly embarrassing.
Seriously. Look in the mirror. Pick yourself up off the floor. Get some sunshine. Go find somebody to hang with, or exchange ideas with or fuck. You'll feel better.
66
63
Is that an offer?
Alas. Being the tireless advocate of Truth on Slog is a day in and day out task.
Thank you for your concern.
Don't be embarrassed. It's not your fault. Really.
Is that an offer?
Alas. Being the tireless advocate of Truth on Slog is a day in and day out task.
Thank you for your concern.
Don't be embarrassed. It's not your fault. Really.
67
Come on, 66.
You endlessly pontificate about another's marriage, hence, it's an entirely valid question. Are you married, yourself?
Come on, 66.
You endlessly pontificate about another's marriage, hence, it's an entirely valid question. Are you married, yourself?
68
I get the impression the only woman in the trolls life is his / her / its mom and it would be really hypocritical to advocate for same family marriage and if anything he / she / it isn't a hypocrite. Lets face it, hypocrisy would be a poor foundation for developing social policy.
69
@64 "C|N>K" please explain, I googled and couldn't find it! Linux ref.? Math? What is C, N, K?
@67, you nailed it. That, or troll is a closet case who has made the "choice" to be straight. Or is a deeply unhappy person in some way. Still makes me afraid, must suck to be Dan at times -- he faces the same security problems as rich, famous people but without the big bucks for security.
I was reading PZ Myers' blog recently, he has Christian anti-atheist trolls who literally stalk him and send him weird shit in the mail, the police just don't care as he's not an Important Person (= rich).
@67, you nailed it. That, or troll is a closet case who has made the "choice" to be straight. Or is a deeply unhappy person in some way. Still makes me afraid, must suck to be Dan at times -- he faces the same security problems as rich, famous people but without the big bucks for security.
I was reading PZ Myers' blog recently, he has Christian anti-atheist trolls who literally stalk him and send him weird shit in the mail, the police just don't care as he's not an Important Person (= rich).
70
I so enjoy the fact that the commen count is exactly at #69 as I point this out... ohhh damnnn never mind
71
@ Unregistered Troll -
You realize that marriage as we know it is pretty damned new, right? For a very long time it was a property arrangement.
In ancient Greece, marriage and romantic love had nothing to do with one another. It was understood that romantic love could exist only between equals and as women were not seen as equal to men there was no possible way for a man and a woman to love each other. Men made use of prostitutes and concubines to meet their sexual needs and other men to meet their emotional (and sometimes sexual) needs.
In early Rome, men could beat, sell, or even murder their wives. Later in Roman history, a man and woman were considered "married" if they lived together for a year and were "divorced" if one of them moved out. Romans had no qualms with homosexuality.
In ancient Israel, polygamy was all the rage and brides were purchased.
Early Christianity favored abstinance over marriage. In fact, Paul (yeah, the Biblical one) was quite explicit in his disgust with the thought of marriage. (1 Cor 7:1 It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 1 Cor 7:27 Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.) In fact, as late as the 10th century marriges were not allowed to take place inside the church. They took place outside. Priests didn't officiate until the 13th century.
And modern Christianity? Well, in the 16th century Martin Luther (remember him? founder of the protestant religions) referred to marriage as "a worldly thing . . . that belongs to the realm of government." And English Puritans in the 17th century passed an Act of Parliament asserting "marriage to be no sacrament."
So umm... Traditional marriage? Which kind?
You realize that marriage as we know it is pretty damned new, right? For a very long time it was a property arrangement.
In ancient Greece, marriage and romantic love had nothing to do with one another. It was understood that romantic love could exist only between equals and as women were not seen as equal to men there was no possible way for a man and a woman to love each other. Men made use of prostitutes and concubines to meet their sexual needs and other men to meet their emotional (and sometimes sexual) needs.
In early Rome, men could beat, sell, or even murder their wives. Later in Roman history, a man and woman were considered "married" if they lived together for a year and were "divorced" if one of them moved out. Romans had no qualms with homosexuality.
In ancient Israel, polygamy was all the rage and brides were purchased.
Early Christianity favored abstinance over marriage. In fact, Paul (yeah, the Biblical one) was quite explicit in his disgust with the thought of marriage. (1 Cor 7:1 It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 1 Cor 7:27 Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.) In fact, as late as the 10th century marriges were not allowed to take place inside the church. They took place outside. Priests didn't officiate until the 13th century.
And modern Christianity? Well, in the 16th century Martin Luther (remember him? founder of the protestant religions) referred to marriage as "a worldly thing . . . that belongs to the realm of government." And English Puritans in the 17th century passed an Act of Parliament asserting "marriage to be no sacrament."
So umm... Traditional marriage? Which kind?
72
I'm glad this LW and his wife are married to each other.
They both sound pretty horrible to me, and they're doing everyone else a favor by keeping each other off the market.
They both sound pretty horrible to me, and they're doing everyone else a favor by keeping each other off the market.
73
71
What? Nothing about Neanderthal marriage practices?
Bonobos?
Why don't we stick to America.
One man. One woman.
Any questions?
What? Nothing about Neanderthal marriage practices?
Bonobos?
Why don't we stick to America.
One man. One woman.
Any questions?
74
@42 While agreeing with that sentiment in theory, -- that it's not unrealistic or selfish to expect both PIV/oral from your partner -- I think it's important to not label a person who doesn't like those activities as somehow defective or deficient, or to imply that "normal"/standard people do both. It does however mean that if you're unwilling/unable to go there with a partner, it will take a lot longer to find someone suitable. Personally I don't feel that way about PIV/oral, but I can sympathize with a seemingly innocuous activity being such a turnoff that I couldn't do it, even for my partner.
For all those hatin' on the wife: It takes two to get married and two to build up the level of resentment the letter hints at. Overall @72 is right.
For all those hatin' on the wife: It takes two to get married and two to build up the level of resentment the letter hints at. Overall @72 is right.
75
@74, sure, but if the wife does feel that way, she's got an obligation to say so. If your sexuality is non-standard, that's fine--that's awesome!--but you gotta tell your partner.
76
@69 - it predates Linux, but it is a 'unix-ism' - shell scripting:
"|" pipe character
">" redirect chacter
C = coffee
N = nose
K = keyboard
"Coffee through Nose into Keyboard"
On the "resentment issue" - I doubt very much the wife is feeling highly resentful - resent as an emotion tends to kill libido (in women, not men) at least as directed to the object of resent. In other words: she's still doing him, I doubt she's feeling the resent he is. But, I'm a dude, so I could be completely wrong.
"|" pipe character
">" redirect chacter
C = coffee
N = nose
K = keyboard
"Coffee through Nose into Keyboard"
On the "resentment issue" - I doubt very much the wife is feeling highly resentful - resent as an emotion tends to kill libido (in women, not men) at least as directed to the object of resent. In other words: she's still doing him, I doubt she's feeling the resent he is. But, I'm a dude, so I could be completely wrong.
77
Okay Trollboy, you're busted. Multiple times dodging the question = you're not now and I'll wager never have been married, and I'm going to also guess that you're partner-less. Else, why be so relentlessly bitter and consumed - on a daily basis - with somebody else's happy marriage?
If you're such a deeply fervent believer and uber fan of the institution - if it's SO damned important to you and to society and the world ... why haven't you engaged in it?
Okay Trollboy, you're busted. Multiple times dodging the question = you're not now and I'll wager never have been married, and I'm going to also guess that you're partner-less. Else, why be so relentlessly bitter and consumed - on a daily basis - with somebody else's happy marriage?
If you're such a deeply fervent believer and uber fan of the institution - if it's SO damned important to you and to society and the world ... why haven't you engaged in it?
82
@ 73 - Well, sure, we can stick to America but that won't help your argument any. Bigamy was legal in the United States until 1862. ;)
84
@61 nobody answered your question, but I will! Tristan Taormino recently did a great podcast all about prostate stimulation. Her expert guest made some recommendations. Charlie Glickman (his website is prostatepleasureguide.org) recommends the Aneros MGX for beginners.
Thanks, Dan, for getting me listening to Tristan!
Thanks, Dan, for getting me listening to Tristan!
85
@ 83 - You can look it up if you don't believe me. "Traditional" marriage (as you think of it) is far from traditional. In fact, marriage as we currently know it has only existed in the United States since 1967 (when Loving v. Virginia legalized interracial marriage). What you are actually concerned about maintaining is a very recent and relatively short lived status quo in an ever changing institution. You're familiar with the Constitution as a Living Document? Marriage is the same way. It has to keep evolving in order to maintain its relevance in society. And that's a good thing. "The wind does not break a tree that bends."
As far as troll feeding, I enjoy it sometimes. I also like feeding ducks. =)
As far as troll feeding, I enjoy it sometimes. I also like feeding ducks. =)
86
85
marriage has always been man-woman.
always.
marriage is not evolving.
it is dying.
30% fewer American adults are in a marriage currently than 50 years ago.
half of the children born in this country are born outside marriage.
calling homosexual pairings 'marriage' is not an evolution, it is slapping rouge on a terminal patient and pretending they are getting better.
homosexual 'marriage' is opportunistic infection attacking a terminal patient in the endstage of life.
WE'RE WINNING! the tuberculosis cried; unconcerned that the host only has a few days to live....
marriage has always been man-woman.
always.
marriage is not evolving.
it is dying.
30% fewer American adults are in a marriage currently than 50 years ago.
half of the children born in this country are born outside marriage.
calling homosexual pairings 'marriage' is not an evolution, it is slapping rouge on a terminal patient and pretending they are getting better.
homosexual 'marriage' is opportunistic infection attacking a terminal patient in the endstage of life.
WE'RE WINNING! the tuberculosis cried; unconcerned that the host only has a few days to live....
87
@ 86 - There is a relevant XKCD for that. ^^
http://xkcd.com/1122/
It wasn't all that long ago when you could have said any of the following (in no particular order):
Marriage has always been arranged. Always.
Marriage has always allowed for husbands beating their wives. Always.
Marriage has always been whites with whites and blacks with blacks. Always.
Marriage has always been a state matter in which the Church took no part. Always.
Look, people are waiting until they are older to get married. The average age of first marriage as of 2012 was 28 for men and 26 for women. Compare that with 22 for men and 20 for women in 1960. But marriage is a multi-billion dollar industry. $48 billion in the United States alone in 2011. If it's on its last legs, that's one helluva last gasp.
And as for kids born out of wedlock, there are a lot of factors at play. For example, just because people are older when they get married doesn't mean they are older when they have sex. Abstinence only education delays the onset of sexual activity in teens by only 6 months and states with abstinence only education policies have the highest teen pregnancy rates (because the kids use contraception at a lower rate if they don't receive comprehensive sex ed.) And before you say something snarky about the kids, it's relevant to note that at the time of the Revolutionary War, 30% of colonial brides were pregnant on their wedding day. So I suppose it would be reasonable to pin at least part of the blame for kids born out of wedlock on shotgun weddings no longer being in vogue. And then there is the whole "morality of abortion" issue. Like I said, there are a lot of factors at play with regards to kids born out of wedlock. But gay folks fuckin' is not one of them. ;)
I do understand why you are concerned. Our culture is changing at a terrifying rate. People don't talk to each other any more. It's all texting and tweeting and facebook. It's enough to scare the hell out of anyone. But fighting to keep people who love each other apart cannot be the answer. The end, whatever you may believe it to be, does not justify that as a means. It can't.
More...
http://xkcd.com/1122/
It wasn't all that long ago when you could have said any of the following (in no particular order):
Marriage has always been arranged. Always.
Marriage has always allowed for husbands beating their wives. Always.
Marriage has always been whites with whites and blacks with blacks. Always.
Marriage has always been a state matter in which the Church took no part. Always.
Look, people are waiting until they are older to get married. The average age of first marriage as of 2012 was 28 for men and 26 for women. Compare that with 22 for men and 20 for women in 1960. But marriage is a multi-billion dollar industry. $48 billion in the United States alone in 2011. If it's on its last legs, that's one helluva last gasp.
And as for kids born out of wedlock, there are a lot of factors at play. For example, just because people are older when they get married doesn't mean they are older when they have sex. Abstinence only education delays the onset of sexual activity in teens by only 6 months and states with abstinence only education policies have the highest teen pregnancy rates (because the kids use contraception at a lower rate if they don't receive comprehensive sex ed.) And before you say something snarky about the kids, it's relevant to note that at the time of the Revolutionary War, 30% of colonial brides were pregnant on their wedding day. So I suppose it would be reasonable to pin at least part of the blame for kids born out of wedlock on shotgun weddings no longer being in vogue. And then there is the whole "morality of abortion" issue. Like I said, there are a lot of factors at play with regards to kids born out of wedlock. But gay folks fuckin' is not one of them. ;)
I do understand why you are concerned. Our culture is changing at a terrifying rate. People don't talk to each other any more. It's all texting and tweeting and facebook. It's enough to scare the hell out of anyone. But fighting to keep people who love each other apart cannot be the answer. The end, whatever you may believe it to be, does not justify that as a means. It can't.
89
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The address is :
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Payments Via Check, Payza, PayPal and Liberty Reserve
PS: IT IS NOT A VIRUS"
When you take a break , go and click some advertises and make some tasks, i use clixsens for 1 hour a day, and I earn about 100 dolars in first week.After you create an acount , invite some friends to join this.you will earn comission from their earnings.
The address is :
http://www.clixsense.com/?5244493
We will talk more on the site.You can ask me for help there.
Payments Via Check, Payza, PayPal and Liberty Reserve
PS: IT IS NOT A VIRUS"
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