Slog
News & ArtsMonday, March 18, 2013
Mailbag Someone Who Just Moved Here Tells Us About Seattle
Posted by Dominic Holden on Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 4:59 PM
A reader sent a letter to the editor in response to Anna Minard's "Are Seattle Schools Racist?" Estlin Graves writes:
Is this a rhetorical question?
When I tell Seattle folk that I'm a recent transplant from the Deep South, one of two general reactions typically occur. The first is an empathetic nod and a pat on the shoulder with "Yeah, man, me too. Don't all these passive-aggressive West Coast pricks drive you mad?" And the second, more common reaction is a disparaging forced smile and a slight eye twitch, carefully concealed immediately thereafter, as if to say "Now that I know I'm speaking with ignorance manifested, I'll try to keep my composure until I can find a way to evade deep conversation."
As I drove across the country a few months ago with nothing but the shit I could fit in my tiny car on my way west, I got to see and study the social climates of some of the USA's most defining cities—New York, D.C., Chicago—but what stands out to me still is the time I spent in Milwaukee.
One toothless laborer I met in a bar there boasted that Milwaukee is "among the top three most segregated cities in America," and indeed, my aimless walks around the city's various neighborhoods revealed abrupt shifts in culture every few blocks. The wealthy (almost entirely white) folks lived in small mansions looking over the city's (almost entirely nonwhite) slums. At the risk of sounding like a liberal arts student, I thought "Christ, this place is an embodiment of our entire nation's social and racial situation."
The northwest, though, is different. I wasn't quite sure what to expect when I got here, because if you say "Seattle" in most of the South, folks tend to look at you like you said "Cambodia," so far removed is its progressive culture.
The truth is, what I've found here is hardly any different than hellish Milwaukee. The west coast is no less racist than the rural parts of the Carolinas; it's just better at pretending to not be racist.
That's not a good thing. While I've suffered plenty of piercing glares from older black folks in the South who had likely seen a white man who looked a lot like me spray their loved ones with a fire hose in the streets, I feel a thousand times shittier here, because eye contact between myself and a nonwhite individual seldom, if ever, even occurs. He or she treats me as though I were invisible, and I, failing to make any human connection, reluctantly do the same.
That's not any one person or institution's fault, of course. I cannot pretend to speak from experience, though I imagine that if I'd been the lowest common socioeconomic denominator through no fault of my own, I'd be a bit spiteful toward lily-skinned pussies who, despite sitting pretty atop nearly every undeserved boon, still find something to complain about—my coffee is too cold; my phone sucks—I'd be in a state of almost constant anger; anger which might boil, in time, into resentment, then hatred, and, finally, disillusionment. I would resign myself from the impossible "American Dream" I was taught to believe in, and transform into something resembling a pure self-preservationist, knowing well that my culture is not designed to catch me when I fall unless I were to magically wake up tomorrow as some narrow suburban honky.
In sum, the question is not "Are Seattle schools racist?"—the question is "Is America, even in its most progressive parts, rife with ignorance and separatism?" And at either rate, the answer is a resounding YES.
But where do we go from there? I, for one, am no seer, no strategist, no sage—but I'll offer this: See yourself as a cell, an integral and irreplaceable part of a larger organism called society. Now, what if you were to make a supreme effort to be honest with yourself about what you take for granted? Who knows, you might just mutate—evolve, even—and maybe, just maybe, you'll start to infect other cells with your new brand of compassion until the whole damn organism starts to learn how to heal.
Estlin Graves
1
Or maybe you're just bad at making friends and project your awkward eye contact or lack of eye contact onto some elaborate racial storyline.
You're probably a little right, too. A little from column a, a little from column b.
You're probably a little right, too. A little from column a, a little from column b.
2
Um, he does realize that a lot of the people he thinks are one race are multi-racial, right?
Only someone from back East would think we don't intermarry around here.
Only someone from back East would think we don't intermarry around here.
7
That's funny, I have a guy (friend of a friend) from the Deep South living in my basement right now. He's a naturally empathic, compassionate person and he's loving it up here and is having no trouble making new friends (suck it, "Seattle Freeze"). But he also moved here very excited about the possibilities of life in a new city.
His impressions of his first weeks here are pretty much the opposite of the sentiment espoused by this Estlin Graves person. I guess the attitude you bring with you matters a lot!
His impressions of his first weeks here are pretty much the opposite of the sentiment espoused by this Estlin Graves person. I guess the attitude you bring with you matters a lot!
8
I think if I had a name as good as "Estlin" I'd be the sort of person who could wear a hat without looking silly.
9
Eye contact is... forgive the expression... a whole ball of wax in its own right.
If you want to talk about eye contact and the lack thereof, male/female dynamics may be at least as strong a factor as racial dynamics. As a woman, I avoid eye contact equally with all colors of the rainbow.
If you want to talk about eye contact and the lack thereof, male/female dynamics may be at least as strong a factor as racial dynamics. As a woman, I avoid eye contact equally with all colors of the rainbow.
10
Estlin Graves is dead on of course. No one likes their self-image of cultural superiority challenged, but anyone who's traveled the country and actually got out of their comfort zone, knows Seattle has no special claim to any relative absence of racial bias. We mostly just pretend we do and think that is enough to make it so - the arrogance of cultural bigotry.
12
Nothing more irritating than morons who move to Seattle from some pissant small town thinking Seattle will be some sort of left wing paradise and than get angry when it doesn't measure up to their pissant lives. Fuck off back where you came.
13
And btw this report on school punishment? I bet, like the so-called 'achievement gap' it doesn't exists for Asian and African immigrant kids.
'Alarming' new test-score gap discovered in Seattle schools
For the first time, Seattle Public Schools officials have broken down test scores by specific home language. The recently announced results revealed a surprising trend that may have implications for policy around the district.
By Brian M. Rosenthal
Seattle Times education reporter
Student test scores by language spoken at home
District officials, who presented the finding at a recent community meeting at Rainier... (December 18, 2011, by Love Rain and Fog) Read more
All the money in the world will not teach little Jonnie to read. If little Jonnie isn't... (December 18, 2011, by Donttreadonme) Read more
The immigrants have a better work ethic while our home grown are represent the result... (December 18, 2011, by 1000% Common Sense) Read more
Read all 511 comments >Post a comment >
African-American students whose primary language is English perform significantly worse in math and reading than black students who speak another language at home — typically immigrants or refugees — according to new numbers released by Seattle Public Schools.
District officials, who presented the finding at a recent community meeting at Rainier Beach High School, noted the results come with caveats, but called the potential trend troubling and pledged to study what might be causing it.
Michael Tolley, an executive director overseeing Southeast Seattle schools, said at the meeting that the data exposed a new achievement gap that is "extremely, extremely alarming."
'Alarming' new test-score gap discovered in Seattle schools
For the first time, Seattle Public Schools officials have broken down test scores by specific home language. The recently announced results revealed a surprising trend that may have implications for policy around the district.
By Brian M. Rosenthal
Seattle Times education reporter
Student test scores by language spoken at home
District officials, who presented the finding at a recent community meeting at Rainier... (December 18, 2011, by Love Rain and Fog) Read more
All the money in the world will not teach little Jonnie to read. If little Jonnie isn't... (December 18, 2011, by Donttreadonme) Read more
The immigrants have a better work ethic while our home grown are represent the result... (December 18, 2011, by 1000% Common Sense) Read more
Read all 511 comments >Post a comment >
African-American students whose primary language is English perform significantly worse in math and reading than black students who speak another language at home — typically immigrants or refugees — according to new numbers released by Seattle Public Schools.
District officials, who presented the finding at a recent community meeting at Rainier Beach High School, noted the results come with caveats, but called the potential trend troubling and pledged to study what might be causing it.
Michael Tolley, an executive director overseeing Southeast Seattle schools, said at the meeting that the data exposed a new achievement gap that is "extremely, extremely alarming."
15
Estlin Graves sounds like the sort of recent college graduate that takes himself way too seriously. He'll likely get over it in a few years.
16
Please tell me a place where there is no racism. I think what sets the south apart is their wistful embrace of racism as something natural and good for society. Yeah, we're racist. America is racist. We live in America. At least we are ashamed of it. We would rather not live in a racist place. But here we are. We are trying to get better.
also maybe people are avoiding eye contact because of your face tattoos and wide-open eyes. Eye-avoidance has many causes besides racism.
also maybe people are avoiding eye contact because of your face tattoos and wide-open eyes. Eye-avoidance has many causes besides racism.
18
White people in Seattle aren't great at eye contact, either. I know, I lived there for almost a decade.
Anyway, the west on the whole can be like this (aside from California, which is a culture unto itself). You're just thinking waaaaaay too hard about this, intellectualizing things that aren't really there into being. Hopefully you'll grow out of it.
Anyway, the west on the whole can be like this (aside from California, which is a culture unto itself). You're just thinking waaaaaay too hard about this, intellectualizing things that aren't really there into being. Hopefully you'll grow out of it.
19
Sounds like Chapter 234,567 in a book that'll never be finished, titled Please Don't Hate Me, I'm Not Like The Mean White People
By the way, I grew up in Milwaukee. Yep, it's segregated. Always has been, but it's worse now because the factories that once employed a lot of blacks at union wages have closed down. The neighborhoods don't shift every three blocks. The mansions aren't small, and they don't overlook the slums.
By the way, I grew up in Milwaukee. Yep, it's segregated. Always has been, but it's worse now because the factories that once employed a lot of blacks at union wages have closed down. The neighborhoods don't shift every three blocks. The mansions aren't small, and they don't overlook the slums.
20
You know, there are a lot of things to be used as evidence for Seattle racism. Lack of eye contact is really not one of them.
22
So . . . if wrestling is pronounced wrasslin' in the South, does that mean Estlin is pronounced Asslin?
23
Spot on @10. I moved to the PacNW from the South a decade ago. I love it here, and plan to stay. But there is a lot of racism swept under the carpet, and allowed to linger here... and a lot of denial about the situation. To be fair, most of the racism is embedded in the older white enclaves... and in the adverse impacts of related decisions (e.g., parents foolishly chasing test scores rather than great teachers). Younger west-siders are as cool about race as people come though.
25
As a native of Massachusetts (just outside of Boston) and current resident of Baltimore, I fantasize about a place where eye contact isn't required for all social interactions, including just passing someone on the sidewalk. If one more person rudely tells me that I'm not friendly enough, I think I'm going to crack.
27
p.s.: If Estlin was able to take aimless walks around Milwaukee's various neighborhoods, he must have one hell of a set of legs. Milwaukee is many things, but compact isn't one of them. I've never heard of anyone walking aimlessly around the "various" neighborhoods. More likely, he spent a little time in one or both of the East Side or River West.
What do ya say, Estie? Did ya get around town for real, or just take a short stroll through one of the only semi-integrated neighborhoods in town and make a casual extrapolation or three?
What do ya say, Estie? Did ya get around town for real, or just take a short stroll through one of the only semi-integrated neighborhoods in town and make a casual extrapolation or three?
28
So..should I stare every person I see on the streets in Seattle down until they freak out so I'm not racist? That's really I took away from this article.
29
So is he saying that minorities don't look him in the eye because they're scared of him? Or because they're the racist ones? What bearing does eye contact have on racism?
30
One thing this correspondent is definitely wrong about is Seattleites being passive aggressive. The comments sure do prove him wrong on that!
31
@27: As much as I hate to agree with you, UBW, I gotta say that anyone who refers to a cross-country roadtrip as "study[ing] the social climate of... the USA" is completely full of shit. I've driven cross country many times. Never once was I stupid enough to think that I got anything but the most cursory glance at any of the places I stopped, even when I was there for a non-trivial amount of time.
32
Damn y'all are ig-nint.
THE most racist areas of Seattle are the Negro areas. If you spent ANY time down there, you would know this to be true. Time spent in your High School cultural studies classroom does not count BTW.
Please spare us the racial navel-gazing. It gets us nowhere.
THE most racist areas of Seattle are the Negro areas. If you spent ANY time down there, you would know this to be true. Time spent in your High School cultural studies classroom does not count BTW.
Please spare us the racial navel-gazing. It gets us nowhere.
34
I love all the catching on about eye contact. It's absolutely true. I was on a date once and felt compelled to say "So, you,re not from here, right." "Right," she said, "how did you know?" "Because you've been making eye contact with me since we started speaking."
(For the record, I find it charming on a date, but in every other context I find it discomfiting and aggressive.)
(For the record, I find it charming on a date, but in every other context I find it discomfiting and aggressive.)
35
As a fourth-generation Seattlite and a white woman, I am well-versed in Seattle's favorite Stranger Danger game: "Crazy, Jesus, Money, or Sex?" I don't want to hear about Jesus, I won't give you $3, I'm not going to fuck you, and I don't care about your belief that Greg Nickels is stealing your socks.
I'll make eye contact when I fucking feel like it, not when it makes you happy.
I'll make eye contact when I fucking feel like it, not when it makes you happy.
36
I for one prefer concealed racism to overt racism.
After living in St. Louis, it's nice to go out to bar and not hear the n-word once.
After living in St. Louis, it's nice to go out to bar and not hear the n-word once.
37
@20, How about going to a job interview wearing dark skin, a suit, a tie, no black patois and granny glasses and having the white (and in one case asian) interviewer look at you with either bug eyed shock, jawdropping shock, or anger? Or maybe having the interviewer look at you with fear in his/her eyes while interviewing you. Or the interviewer truncating the interview for no discernible reason with stern serious look on her face--no vocal faux pas or anything of a kind?
@7, Was the southerner black?
@16, It's good to know you're working on it
@7, Was the southerner black?
@16, It's good to know you're working on it
38
It's the "Seattle Freeze." People don't make eye contact, and dread any type of confrontation. If you are honest and open, that makes them nervous. They are afraid you will expect them to be that way and/or they are afraid of making friends. In some places social awkwardness is treated, but in Seattle it is par for the course.
Oh yeah, and they whine like babies, can't make decisions and brake at green lights.
Oh yeah, and they whine like babies, can't make decisions and brake at green lights.
39
Estlin Graves seems to be an intelligent writer who keeps his (her) eyes open. The Stranger could use another person of that caliber.
41
@31 it was the first time out of his little bubble. He's trying to impress us. I guess he's 23 and mom and dad paid his trip.
42
It doesn't take more than a non-trivial amount of time in another geographic culture for it basic differences from our's to become apparent. You don't have to conduct a comprehensive study to realize the very clear differences in things like public body language, eye contact, general friendliness or lack of it, etc. In deed it's how different these things appear with limited exposure that demonstrates how tangible that difference really is.
I frankly think a lot of folks here are offended when they're not complimented for their cultural superiority. Advice to newcomers who want to fit-in; You LOVE Seattle! Besides, if you say it enough to those you meet, it eventually becomes your reality anyway.
I frankly think a lot of folks here are offended when they're not complimented for their cultural superiority. Advice to newcomers who want to fit-in; You LOVE Seattle! Besides, if you say it enough to those you meet, it eventually becomes your reality anyway.
43
@38 for the win.
@40 actually, you kind of do. Most people live along the coast, so it's kind of how it's done. You head up to NY and then end up heading West after you realize it's not the place to stay.
@40 actually, you kind of do. Most people live along the coast, so it's kind of how it's done. You head up to NY and then end up heading West after you realize it's not the place to stay.
44
@32 Dude, you try waaaaaaaaay too hard. Besides, if you want to find success trolling Slog you really need to work an angle – like, Gay Republican or Transgendered Vegan. The Contrarian Frat Boy thing just isn't going to take you places. We've had a number of your type apply over the years and eventually they get bored and move on.
45
Of course Seattle is racist. If we weren't racist, we'd have fixed our own racist police force, instead of needing the Feds to make us fix it with a court order.
White Seattleites care far more about the perfectly legal killing of a freaking non-endangered octopus in Elliott Bay than the beating or even death of a brown person at the hands of our cops. White people here literally will tell you to your face that they are powerless to stop our racist cops. And they want you to swallow that excuse and give them a pass. They're embarrassed to be thought of as racist, but not enough to take action.
It's because they secretly believe that what the cops in this city do to minorities is necessary.
White Seattleites care far more about the perfectly legal killing of a freaking non-endangered octopus in Elliott Bay than the beating or even death of a brown person at the hands of our cops. White people here literally will tell you to your face that they are powerless to stop our racist cops. And they want you to swallow that excuse and give them a pass. They're embarrassed to be thought of as racist, but not enough to take action.
It's because they secretly believe that what the cops in this city do to minorities is necessary.
46
I bet Estie spent all his time in a few hip city neighborhoods -- Adams Morgan or Eastern Market, Lower East Side or Williamsburg, Wicker Park or Logan Square, Milwaukee East Side or River West, and now Capitol Hill or Georgetown or Ballard. In between, he took the Interstates.
47
Seattle is filled with the dumbest smart people you'll ever meet who, after either taking a road trip or spending a week in either a. Ko Samui or b. Amsterdam, think they're worldly. Exactly like this asshole; he'll fit right in.
49
#47, it gets worse. They take a vacation to Amsterdam and then come back here and want to force everyone to ride bicycles.
50
Estlin sounds like a lot of 21-and-younger kids-- has some brains, is desperately trying to understand his world, is suspicious of what he was taught as a kid but isn't willing (yet) to completely give up on some of his mostly deeply-held beliefs, and feels that sometime very soon, perhaps w/in the next 6-8 months, he'll have 'figured it all out.' I get the strong impression that he left on his trip w/ the idea of using his experiences to write The Great American Novel.
Mr. Graves, WADR, you've figured out nothing, and you never will. No great writer has. All they have is a unique point of view, so work on that. And, quite frankly, that needs a lot of work. Folks from the deep South wagging their fingers at Northern cities after they're shocked, shocked I say, to discover racism here as well are so numerous, you could pave I-5 w/ them. Probably have enough left over to do the floating bridges as well.
Mr. Graves, WADR, you've figured out nothing, and you never will. No great writer has. All they have is a unique point of view, so work on that. And, quite frankly, that needs a lot of work. Folks from the deep South wagging their fingers at Northern cities after they're shocked, shocked I say, to discover racism here as well are so numerous, you could pave I-5 w/ them. Probably have enough left over to do the floating bridges as well.
51
@49. Which reminds me, time to go fuck with the urbanists at Seattle Transit Blog and tell them about my new Audi.
52
@45 for another win. In many cases, white seattleites will say in response to the beating of a brown skinned person that "the cops have a tough job" and "it was just an isolated incident", i.e., the brutality is ok because it helps to maintain the power relationship between the races in the city.
53
#51, if we're lucky, we'll get to vote on any tab fees to replace the $20 King County fee that expires this year. I can hardly wait to hear the whining when it gets rejected.
56
In Europe, there is racism. The Romanians hate the Hungarians, the Bulgarians hate the Turks, and everyone hates the Jews and the Roma. I don't mean the word "hate" in a casual sense. I mean it in a very active sense. Volen Siderov leads a nationalist party in Bulgaria with seats in their Parliament that advocates for genocide. In Romania, the Romania Mare party does the same. Their leader, Vadim Tudor, has suggested that the solution to his country's woes is to gather up all the Roma, Jews, and gays in a stadium, and then murder them all with automatic gunfire. This rant won him a seat in his country's Parliament. Another party in that same country, Noua Dreapte, advocates the same position.
In Sudan, the Messariya Arab, Dinka, Nuer and other populations alll hate one another. there, the hate is manifested with real warfare, guns and mortar shells. In Rwanda, racism there erupted into a full blown genocide.
There is no place on Earth inhabited by humans where racism does not exist. To say that you are not racist or this or that place is not racist or that person is not racist or this group is not racist is to deny reality.
There are many things inherent to being human that one benefits from struggling against. Another human characteristic is the tendency toward violence. By resisting that urge too, we benefit. We benefit from resisting the suicidal impulse. We benefit from refusing to allow ourselves to become addicted to things. We benefit from resisting the urge toward selfishness.
Self-control is the greatest gift a person can give to oneself. By realizing that you are racist, and that by resisting that racist urge you benefit yourself as well as everyone else, you improve yourself. Your life becomes better thereby.
So, when you say, "Is Seattle racist" I say, of course it is! But we are beautiful because here we see that racism, and we grapple with it, and we wrestle it to submission, rather than letting it control our minds. Are we always successful? No. But like Cool Hand Luke, no matter how many times we are knocked down, we get back up again and we fight.
That's the Seattle I love. Its the city that refuses to capitulate to its more destructive instincts.
More...
In Sudan, the Messariya Arab, Dinka, Nuer and other populations alll hate one another. there, the hate is manifested with real warfare, guns and mortar shells. In Rwanda, racism there erupted into a full blown genocide.
There is no place on Earth inhabited by humans where racism does not exist. To say that you are not racist or this or that place is not racist or that person is not racist or this group is not racist is to deny reality.
There are many things inherent to being human that one benefits from struggling against. Another human characteristic is the tendency toward violence. By resisting that urge too, we benefit. We benefit from resisting the suicidal impulse. We benefit from refusing to allow ourselves to become addicted to things. We benefit from resisting the urge toward selfishness.
Self-control is the greatest gift a person can give to oneself. By realizing that you are racist, and that by resisting that racist urge you benefit yourself as well as everyone else, you improve yourself. Your life becomes better thereby.
So, when you say, "Is Seattle racist" I say, of course it is! But we are beautiful because here we see that racism, and we grapple with it, and we wrestle it to submission, rather than letting it control our minds. Are we always successful? No. But like Cool Hand Luke, no matter how many times we are knocked down, we get back up again and we fight.
That's the Seattle I love. Its the city that refuses to capitulate to its more destructive instincts.
58
Estin, as you can see, this gaggle of comments from defensive Seattle idiots who wish to embrace their vapid lives only serves as support for your evaluation. It's why I don't reside there. I encourage you to move to Bellingham. More folk will appreciate your insight and I think you'll find a healthier, diverse culture to blossom in. Sorry Seattle. but but your coffee fetish is making your progressive wheels spin.
59
Wow, there are a lot of really defensive response posts in this thread. Almost zero"that's an intersesting perspective." If you're feeling that uncomfortable folks, it's probably because the shoe pinches.
60
as a white guy who loves seattle and grew up near (and likes) milwaukee, I've now been informed that YES, I am a fucking honky racist.
Yay, me!
Yay, me!
61
"diverse culture to blossom"
In Bellingham? Oh my god, laugh my ass off. Bellingham diverse? Ha ha ha ha, ho, ho, ho ho… sorry, gotta wipe the tears off my keyboard.
Thanks the shits and giggles Bellingham boy; now get back on your bicycle and head down to the coop to get some locally made goat cheese. Say hi to all the other bearded white dudes with diverse facial hair.
In Bellingham? Oh my god, laugh my ass off. Bellingham diverse? Ha ha ha ha, ho, ho, ho ho… sorry, gotta wipe the tears off my keyboard.
Thanks the shits and giggles Bellingham boy; now get back on your bicycle and head down to the coop to get some locally made goat cheese. Say hi to all the other bearded white dudes with diverse facial hair.
62
Yes, Estlin, that African-American woman on the bus didn't just fail to notice you. She was not preoccupied with her own life and thoughts in the way people of all colors on the bus are. No, Estlin, the truth is obviously that in Seattle uniformly live their days with a special contempt for white people that is somehow found _nowhere_ else in America and grounded entirely in a deeper understanding of the shallowness of Seattle's white population. And you, Estlin - somehow only _you_ had the unique insight to discover and fully appreciate that contempt.
Estlin, you're kind of a pompous ass.
Estlin, you're kind of a pompous ass.
63
@59, that kind of psychpop went out a long time ago. The posts were offensive, rather than defensive, and saying something's wrong doesn't automatically mean you in your heart know it's right.
64
YEAH all you White "holier than thou" racists in Seattle make me sick. Nasty ass bunch that you are. ALL of you. Every single last one of you is a racist. Estlin Graves says so. Stop denying it. When did you stop beating your wife?
65
@ 56, I wish I lived in that Seattle when I lived in Seattle. (It isn't as sweaty as Cool Hand Luke, is it?)
66
I think I saw this guy. He was on the bus dressed like a hillbilly screaming:
"Look at me! LOOK AT ME, GALL DURN YOU! Into my eyes. MY EYES!... wha? Why won't you look into my eyes, you... you racists!"
And then broke out singing Camptown Races. Yes. I thought it was odd, too.
"Look at me! LOOK AT ME, GALL DURN YOU! Into my eyes. MY EYES!... wha? Why won't you look into my eyes, you... you racists!"
And then broke out singing Camptown Races. Yes. I thought it was odd, too.
67
@58: b-ham, a town which is 99.99% white, is less racist than an actual city with the most diverse zip code in america? perhaps because b-ham doesn't have any diverse races trying to deal with each other.
68
I drove through Tennessee once and couldn't understand anything anybody said to me. So I made sure to avoid all eye contact.
69
"If you're willing to work hard, it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, what your last name is - you can make it if you try"
President barack Obama. March 18th, 2013
God bless the USA and our great president (did I mention he's black?)
President barack Obama. March 18th, 2013
God bless the USA and our great president (did I mention he's black?)
70
@38
You nailed Seattle. Nice!
@30
Yeah, on an *anonymous* message board they're direct. To your face, they're totally phony and insincere. This behavior is what they equate with "politeness" and they think it's how all decent people should behave.
You nailed Seattle. Nice!
@30
Yeah, on an *anonymous* message board they're direct. To your face, they're totally phony and insincere. This behavior is what they equate with "politeness" and they think it's how all decent people should behave.
71
Not sure what part of the Deep South this person hails from, but I just moved from Seattle to the Mississippi Delta this past year.
And the winner for racism is.....The Delta! That doesn't mean Seattle is a utopian society, but man, it's hard to out-racist Mississippi.
I could provide reasoning that uses beautiful verbiage and thought provoking analysis, but it's all deadwood--as is this post.
And the winner for racism is.....The Delta! That doesn't mean Seattle is a utopian society, but man, it's hard to out-racist Mississippi.
I could provide reasoning that uses beautiful verbiage and thought provoking analysis, but it's all deadwood--as is this post.
72
#56, as someone who's spent a lot of time in Europe, everyone in Europe hates someone else in Europe.
73
I live in the CD and I make eye contact with people of color every day. We even take turns speaking with each other! It’s true! I will say, “Hello,” the person of color will respond in kind, and then we go about our lives. In fact, the only times I find myself surrounded by white folks is when I vicariously through other white folk such as Estlin who paint with such broad strokes as to completely whitewash a city full of people from every race, color, and creed.
74
@67; apparently a republican, since facts don't matter and you can say whatever in a Palinesque sort of way. Anyway, I was referring to a more diverse state of mind. Don't ever change Seattle, just keep on being whatever it is you cherish so much. Nearly utopia, I'm sure.
75
Go down to Rainer ave and Henderson at 11pm newbie, pull out your iPhone and just wait til some friendly locals come to mix it up with you. Just be careful what you wish for.
76
@67, Bellingham's a great town. Western is a great school, with an incredibly progressive atmosphere. But you don't have too step too far away from campus before finding a bunch of dumb racist hillbillies. It's not as bad as rural whatcom county, but there are still plenty in town.
77
@74 a "diverse state of mind" in Bellingham? What the fuck does that mean? You can get that with 4 hobos and a case of Four Loko.
78
How else can you tell if your Southern Baptist neighbors are drinking on the sly if they don't look you square in the eye? Shaming is a lot harder if everyone isn't looking over everyone else's shoulder and keeping careful notes of what they see.
79
I will not make any assumptions about this person, but I moved here from NYC in '95, had no problems with 'eye contact', found people less concerned about other peoples heritage, and I had no illusions that racism would not exist here. (Of course it does because it is everywhere.)
And when I drove west I managed to avoid the Deep South, but I suppose all roads lead to New York.
And when I drove west I managed to avoid the Deep South, but I suppose all roads lead to New York.
80
It's an important characteristic of Seattleites to hate Seattle. It comprises the bulk of any cocktail conversation here. You'll do fine.
82
@80: Surely you mean transplanted Seattleites? As a born and bred Seattleite (who has both lived and visited other places), I love Seattle. In all its passive-aggressive, freezy, racism-denying glory.
I nearly died of carbon monoxide politesse at a four-way stop this evening, but I'm not complaining.
I nearly died of carbon monoxide politesse at a four-way stop this evening, but I'm not complaining.
83
@38 is dead on. People here are negative, sarcastic, and bitchy to no end. They will complain about anything given the chance - their job, the weather, their commute, their ever-aging techy gadgets that are usually less than 2 years old. I always thought the Seattle Freeze was a myth, an urban legend. It wasn't until my partner moved here from the midwest that I realized it's the unspoken law of the land. Which isn't to say I'm totally innocent. I've kept people at arm's length with jokes and ignored texts from would-be friends. But now that I know how fucked this place is, I want to be better. I've built a strong circle of friends over the last two years since realizing how shitty Seattle people are to each other (let alone outsiders). Most of those friends are not Seattle natives, and I've never been happier to live here.
Shape the fuck up, Seattle. Look your neighbor in the eye. Say hi to your coworkers. Don't be afraid, we don't bite.
Shape the fuck up, Seattle. Look your neighbor in the eye. Say hi to your coworkers. Don't be afraid, we don't bite.
86
Christ you all have no idea what you are talking about. Seattle is racist? I moved here from Spokane, where as a child people would lean out of their car and call me the n-word, and I'm not even black. People would call me a beaner and spic in high school, and then stare blankly at me when I explained that I'm not even hispanic.
Yes, Seattle is racist. This whole fucking planet is racist. In case you haven't noticed, Caucasian people are still hoovering up most of the world's resources. People in China are still climbing over the suicide fence to end it so they wont have to make Ipads for middle class white kids anymore. But let's be real here: Seattle is a HELL of a lot less racist than Washington's second largest city, 300 miles to the east. And let's talk about Northern Idaho, where I spent a year as a brown 8 year old kid in Hayden Lake. Do not EVER talk to me about how racist Seattle is. Trust me.
Once you accept that racism is pretty much a universal human trait, you need to evaluate racism based on degrees. And no, being passive aggressive does not equal being racist. And Seattle, as far as my experience tells me, isn't that racist at all. Once you cross the I-90 bridge over Lake Washington bridge, you can watch that racism meter start to climb steadily.
Yes, Seattle is racist. This whole fucking planet is racist. In case you haven't noticed, Caucasian people are still hoovering up most of the world's resources. People in China are still climbing over the suicide fence to end it so they wont have to make Ipads for middle class white kids anymore. But let's be real here: Seattle is a HELL of a lot less racist than Washington's second largest city, 300 miles to the east. And let's talk about Northern Idaho, where I spent a year as a brown 8 year old kid in Hayden Lake. Do not EVER talk to me about how racist Seattle is. Trust me.
Once you accept that racism is pretty much a universal human trait, you need to evaluate racism based on degrees. And no, being passive aggressive does not equal being racist. And Seattle, as far as my experience tells me, isn't that racist at all. Once you cross the I-90 bridge over Lake Washington bridge, you can watch that racism meter start to climb steadily.
87
What @71 said.
More...
"The west coast is no less racist than the rural parts of the Carolinas."That's just stupid bullshit. Yes, it's racist in the West. No, we are not as racist as the rural parts of the Carolinas.
"Eye contact between myself and a nonwhite individual seldom, if ever, even occurs."It's a city, not some hick town. We're busy. If you want to make eye contact with nonwhite individuals, then make friends with us, don't expect us to give you the time of day just because you've got some goofy-ass grin on your white face.
"Is America, even in its most progressive parts, rife with ignorance and separatism?"At least in Seattle, they teach social studies in the schools. What kind of dumbass question is that?
"If I'd been the lowest common socioeconomic denominator through no fault of my own, I'd be a bit spiteful toward lily-skinned pussies who, despite sitting pretty atop nearly every undeserved boon, still find something to complain about."Guess what, Estlin. We people of color don't think about you much and really don't give a shit about you. Shocked? We don't CARE if you're privileged. Sure, it would be great if you didn't own everything and fuck us over. But life is pretty damned good for us. We have our families, our churches, our friends and neighbors, our homes, our work. Yes, like anyone, we have our troubles, but we don't sit around pissing and moaning because some moron thinks that racism will magically disappear if only he smokes enough pot and stares at his navel long enough. So no, Estlin, we are not in a "state of almost constant anger; anger which might boil, in time, into resentment, then hatred, and, finally, disillusionment." We have not given up on the American Dream. We realize--obviously--that we have to work twice as hard as white folks to attain it, but we sure as fuck don't need your condescending pity.
88
@58 - Are you on crack? What diverse culture? I moved to Bellingham from Selma, AL and couldn't believe how few black people there were in Bellingham. I'd never seen so much white in all my life.
90
Along with Pittsburgh, Seattle is the nicest place I've ever lived in America. People actually don't cross against the light here. They have a naive, idealistic belief in democracy and fairness. They don't conclude a priori that everyone else is cheating and breaking the rules. We haven't become cynically jaded, is what I'm trying to say, and that's something that I find precious. There truly is - I believe - a small-town sense of community. Neighbors in apartment buildings will help each other out. Drop four inches of snow and it's an instant block party. (And that's all it takes to shut down this city.) The idea of volunteer community service is strong here. I've never had a hard time starting up engrossing conversations about anything with total strangers in this city, and in King County in general. That's something very special. And I know it's not just me, because people who visit me from the East Coast, where I'm from, tell me the same thing. Seattle really, truly is nice - We're a little shy! We're not flamboyantly extroverted. Maybe that's what this Southerner is referring to (Southerners are warmly extroverted, right?) - but we are generally sweet at heart.
And if you're a young gay or lesbian or transgender/sexual/ whatever (sorry, I'm still confused about those terms), it's hard to move to a better place than Seattle. Did I tell you that you can get married to someone of the same gender as you in Washington State? Can't say that about most of the country. And the biggest reason for that is King County. We carried that baby over the top.
I actually haven't seen that much racism here, on a personal level (you can certainly read about it in the papers), and this actually a fairly diverse place. There's a ton of Central Americans here and Eastern Asians, a lot of Africans, specially Eastern Africans, and a ton of Eastern Asians. I've worked with all of them at various jobs and we always got along fine. You have to experience overt racism to get some perspective and I have. If you want to see what actual racism looks like, just take a drive over the mountains to Palin's Real America and hang out with some Tea Party rednecks. You'll also get a sense of what cynical and nasty looks like. You'll come running back to Seattle.
More...
And if you're a young gay or lesbian or transgender/sexual/ whatever (sorry, I'm still confused about those terms), it's hard to move to a better place than Seattle. Did I tell you that you can get married to someone of the same gender as you in Washington State? Can't say that about most of the country. And the biggest reason for that is King County. We carried that baby over the top.
I actually haven't seen that much racism here, on a personal level (you can certainly read about it in the papers), and this actually a fairly diverse place. There's a ton of Central Americans here and Eastern Asians, a lot of Africans, specially Eastern Africans, and a ton of Eastern Asians. I've worked with all of them at various jobs and we always got along fine. You have to experience overt racism to get some perspective and I have. If you want to see what actual racism looks like, just take a drive over the mountains to Palin's Real America and hang out with some Tea Party rednecks. You'll also get a sense of what cynical and nasty looks like. You'll come running back to Seattle.
91
@87 You are amazing. There are mountains of whatever genitals you prefer waiting for you in your afterlife.
92
#87, as the resident white redneck, something tells me that you and me might get along okay if we met in the real world
93
I love it when people move to Seattle and start bitchin' about it not being all that and how it holds itself in higher regard than what's justified. And how it is no better than where one if from...and yet you still come and stay and bitch instead of heading back home.
94
@38 for the win.
Eye contact? Sheesh. I tell my son: "Hey, you ain't seen racism til you get to the South, but,by golly, you have a good chance there of getting invited to a lot of peoples homes within hours of arriving and making lots of friends very quickly," something on the rarer side here. I'm from Northern California and the "freeze" is not as bad as here, but honestly, that Southern kind of friendliness makes me a little nervous even though it can grow on you after a while. Culturally, when I was young I used to think New Yorkers were assholes who literally wanted to provoke me to insult and perhaps physically attack them, but I discovered I was wildly misinterpreting their intent and opinions of me.
Seattle is way more racist than it thinks it is, and that can be irritating, but it ain't the South. Face it King County voted 69 to 28 for Obama, with Seattle supporting Obama even more strongly I'm sure. The size of the Romney votes by Whites in the South shows a dramatic racial bias.
for 2013:
"90 per cent of white voters in Mississippi supported Romney.... Obama won about 49 percent of the white vote outside the South and 27 percent of the white vote in the South. "
"Southern whites did vote for Romney at about the same rate (around 70%) that Hispanics and Asians voted for Obama. Non-Southern whites were almost evenly split between Romney (51%) and Obama (49%)."
Eye contact? Sheesh. I tell my son: "Hey, you ain't seen racism til you get to the South, but,by golly, you have a good chance there of getting invited to a lot of peoples homes within hours of arriving and making lots of friends very quickly," something on the rarer side here. I'm from Northern California and the "freeze" is not as bad as here, but honestly, that Southern kind of friendliness makes me a little nervous even though it can grow on you after a while. Culturally, when I was young I used to think New Yorkers were assholes who literally wanted to provoke me to insult and perhaps physically attack them, but I discovered I was wildly misinterpreting their intent and opinions of me.
Seattle is way more racist than it thinks it is, and that can be irritating, but it ain't the South. Face it King County voted 69 to 28 for Obama, with Seattle supporting Obama even more strongly I'm sure. The size of the Romney votes by Whites in the South shows a dramatic racial bias.
for 2013:
"90 per cent of white voters in Mississippi supported Romney.... Obama won about 49 percent of the white vote outside the South and 27 percent of the white vote in the South. "
"Southern whites did vote for Romney at about the same rate (around 70%) that Hispanics and Asians voted for Obama. Non-Southern whites were almost evenly split between Romney (51%) and Obama (49%)."
95
I lived in Oklahoma for a time, which is not the deep south, but it certainly isn't the midWest either. I was called Yankee in so many different ways - hostile, offhand, slightly leery, questioning, sometimes friendly - but it was ALWAYS there. My not having any drawl was a source of constant comment. And I found the eye contact, the endless cups of nicely brewed iced tea, as part of the southern charm strategy that backfires after a Yankee overstays her welcome in that part of the world.
Which is no comment on the racism aspect of Estlin's note. I think all white people are racists - just some of us try to do something about it with varying degrees of failure.
Which is no comment on the racism aspect of Estlin's note. I think all white people are racists - just some of us try to do something about it with varying degrees of failure.
96
Like many big cities and metropolitan areas that are surrounded by largely unpopulated rural areas, Seattle attracts damaged, disillusioned and arrogant people who come here with the belief that Seattle somehow yields every magical, healing solution that they all imagine exists somewhere, out there beyond their little, rural town. The damaged seek safety and acceptance. The disillusioned seek something to believe in, something real to connect with. The arrogant seek validation that they are as brilliant, unique and amazing as they imagine.
Eventually, when they cannot find everything they seek, they craft a lie and defend it rather than accept failure in the pursuit of an illusion, or they accept that it was fun trip down the rabbit hole or that it was a waste of life and resources to chase a phantom.
They get stuck, or they grow. The question is whether you can grow past it and become or create what you need instead of continuing to obsess about something or someone that you imagine is somewhere out there.
Remember, dearest, the world doesn’t change, we do.
In the mean time, as a "Southern expat" in the Northwest, may I share some advice. Seattle is a collective of social cliques that are largely exclusive of one another; the best way to connect with people is by getting involved in a micro-community that shares a particular interest, hobby or obsession...or fetish that holds attraction, purpose or meaning to you.
Seattle is like a huge, university campus. Everyone is busy doing their own thing. No one gives a fuck whether you succeed or fail. You'll find plenty to enjoy and to dislike here. If you want to succeed, though, find what works for you and make it work.
However, if you still want to be around people who are more friendly and familiar like the culture of some of the smaller cities in the South, I would recommend that you live in smaller cities outside the "metropolitan" area, which can be found north of Everett, south of Tacoma, east of Issaquah and west of Seattle on the peninsula and the islands. You'll know that you're in the right place when the locals don't like their idea of Seattle, but confess that they've never actually lived in Seattle or, perhaps, even visited it. In other words, if you liked the small town culture where you were, you can find it again here in Washington, but it won't be Seattle. Seattle is not a small town of friendly folk who all know each other. No big city is.
A friend of mine from the South visited a few years ago, and she had an amusing take on this city. To her, Seattle is like a bitchy, old house cat. She's somewhat polite, but mostly indifferent to new people, places and ideas. She doesn't make new friends easily. She is anti-social and passive-aggressive, especially to the new, hyper kittens on campus. She attacks first for fear of being hurt or losing autonomy. She doesn't like what she doesn't understand, and she lost her curiosity with her youth. She's seen everything and isn't easily impressed. But, give her time and she'll eventually stop hissing and growling at you and curl up nearby once you've become an older, "Seattled" cat too.
More...
Eventually, when they cannot find everything they seek, they craft a lie and defend it rather than accept failure in the pursuit of an illusion, or they accept that it was fun trip down the rabbit hole or that it was a waste of life and resources to chase a phantom.
They get stuck, or they grow. The question is whether you can grow past it and become or create what you need instead of continuing to obsess about something or someone that you imagine is somewhere out there.
Remember, dearest, the world doesn’t change, we do.
In the mean time, as a "Southern expat" in the Northwest, may I share some advice. Seattle is a collective of social cliques that are largely exclusive of one another; the best way to connect with people is by getting involved in a micro-community that shares a particular interest, hobby or obsession...or fetish that holds attraction, purpose or meaning to you.
Seattle is like a huge, university campus. Everyone is busy doing their own thing. No one gives a fuck whether you succeed or fail. You'll find plenty to enjoy and to dislike here. If you want to succeed, though, find what works for you and make it work.
However, if you still want to be around people who are more friendly and familiar like the culture of some of the smaller cities in the South, I would recommend that you live in smaller cities outside the "metropolitan" area, which can be found north of Everett, south of Tacoma, east of Issaquah and west of Seattle on the peninsula and the islands. You'll know that you're in the right place when the locals don't like their idea of Seattle, but confess that they've never actually lived in Seattle or, perhaps, even visited it. In other words, if you liked the small town culture where you were, you can find it again here in Washington, but it won't be Seattle. Seattle is not a small town of friendly folk who all know each other. No big city is.
A friend of mine from the South visited a few years ago, and she had an amusing take on this city. To her, Seattle is like a bitchy, old house cat. She's somewhat polite, but mostly indifferent to new people, places and ideas. She doesn't make new friends easily. She is anti-social and passive-aggressive, especially to the new, hyper kittens on campus. She attacks first for fear of being hurt or losing autonomy. She doesn't like what she doesn't understand, and she lost her curiosity with her youth. She's seen everything and isn't easily impressed. But, give her time and she'll eventually stop hissing and growling at you and curl up nearby once you've become an older, "Seattled" cat too.
97
72,
That's true the world over. Given the human tendency toward tribalism, I wonder how it is that our species has survived as long as it has. We've certainly had many close shaves.
As late as 1995, we almost blew the planet to bits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_r…
And today, when I look at a map, I see so many places where the distance between where we stand and the brink is so small. India-Pakistan, North Korea-Japan-China-Philippines Israel-Palestine-Egypt, Somalia, Sudan-South Sudan-Darfur-Uganda-Congo, Chechnya-Russia-Georgia-Azerbaijan-Moldova.... how is it that we're still here? And how much longer can we hold on?
Racism, homophobia, misogyny, religious intolerance, all these tribalisms hold our species hostage.
That's true the world over. Given the human tendency toward tribalism, I wonder how it is that our species has survived as long as it has. We've certainly had many close shaves.
As late as 1995, we almost blew the planet to bits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_r…
And today, when I look at a map, I see so many places where the distance between where we stand and the brink is so small. India-Pakistan, North Korea-Japan-China-Philippines Israel-Palestine-Egypt, Somalia, Sudan-South Sudan-Darfur-Uganda-Congo, Chechnya-Russia-Georgia-Azerbaijan-Moldova.... how is it that we're still here? And how much longer can we hold on?
Racism, homophobia, misogyny, religious intolerance, all these tribalisms hold our species hostage.
98
"He's from the Deep South and drove to Seattle via NYC. Sounds like a crappy driver."
At least he found the city where that attribute will fit right in.
At least he found the city where that attribute will fit right in.
99
Is this Mr. (or Ms.?) Graves related to the Stranger's own Jen Graves? They both seem unnaturally obsessed with wallowing in the guilt they feel for being born with white skin. Maybe it's a mental illness that runs in the Graves family. At any rate, fuck 'em both.
100
You know that asshole at the 4 way stop who looks at you morons sitting there, hits the gas and leaves you all looking angry and confused and shaking their mental fists at the gas guzzler's exhaust? That's me.
101
@88 It's true. There were damned few slave ships that pulled into western Washington ports in the 1700s to do business at the auctions in Bellingham. Three cheers for Alabamian diversity.
103
@ 102 several others. I spend 4 years on the west coast, and still miss it often in its passive aggressive, Seattle-freeze glory, but now I live in Baltimore, in the rapidly gentrifying Canton neighborhood.
@87 Nicely put.
@87 Nicely put.
106
1) caucasians are not qualified to evaluate racism. that voids about 97% of the comments in this thread. 2) consider the source: the stranger is lefty/progressive/feminist/gay/alt but most definitely not multi-cultural. It's not much of a stretch to say that it caters to the same demographic. Someone please correct me, but Mizzell and Mudede are pretty much the only non-caucasian folks on staff.
When I read this publication, I have a good sense of the inherent bias. I read it mostly for entertainment, that and listening to the progressive echo chamber. It is the wrong venue for discussing racism for a host of reasons: Too much faux white guilt (See #87), lack of diversity in staff and readership, to name a few.
When I read this publication, I have a good sense of the inherent bias. I read it mostly for entertainment, that and listening to the progressive echo chamber. It is the wrong venue for discussing racism for a host of reasons: Too much faux white guilt (See #87), lack of diversity in staff and readership, to name a few.
107
What is a "Seattle Freeze" and why do foreigners to the city complain about it? Do they understand that the other folks within the city are not here to entertain them, and that they'd have a better chance at making friends by *gasp* interacting with them?
108
sigh. most of this is right on. many in seattle don't even know what friendship is, mistaking it for politeness, or shared discussions of technical things like the quality of snow or a hike; it's impersonal and polite, like at a nordstrom's counter. relentlessly cheerful. a mask. not real. not that interesting either.
often if I wear a red scarf that draws comments simply for being outside the norm. there is an enforced culture of conformity here that is about as puritan as it gets .... and one thing lacking is
introspection.
so if you noitce the freeze and talk about it, yes, then you get a negative reaction -- a dismissive one. not a fascinated one, not one leading to a two hour conversation in a bar. believe me, go to nyc, go to the south, you can have a two hour conversation in a bar.
here, the moment you say anything people pull away; often they're simply scared to be out with themselves as this violates the reigning cultural norm of projecting a normalness and okayness; everyone seems to think they should project some level of ...oh competence or something much like a billy brand ikea boookshelf....i am okay, dont challenge me, don't engage me, do not talk to me, is the message.
if an opinion is voiced, usually the voice lowers...if often feels like every one is as polite as they would be in a after church hot pot buffest in oh, northern minnesota or something. it's just minnesota woebegoneness with a pastiche of of a thin layer of putamayo on top.
often if I wear a red scarf that draws comments simply for being outside the norm. there is an enforced culture of conformity here that is about as puritan as it gets .... and one thing lacking is
introspection.
so if you noitce the freeze and talk about it, yes, then you get a negative reaction -- a dismissive one. not a fascinated one, not one leading to a two hour conversation in a bar. believe me, go to nyc, go to the south, you can have a two hour conversation in a bar.
here, the moment you say anything people pull away; often they're simply scared to be out with themselves as this violates the reigning cultural norm of projecting a normalness and okayness; everyone seems to think they should project some level of ...oh competence or something much like a billy brand ikea boookshelf....i am okay, dont challenge me, don't engage me, do not talk to me, is the message.
if an opinion is voiced, usually the voice lowers...if often feels like every one is as polite as they would be in a after church hot pot buffest in oh, northern minnesota or something. it's just minnesota woebegoneness with a pastiche of of a thin layer of putamayo on top.
109
@107 -- your refusal to engage in an introspective way that comes out to open conversation is a good example of the seattle freeze. you description of "foreigners" is too -- your otherization. the notion that peopl don't exist to entertain each other refelcts a freeze type isolationism -- in most parts of america, yes, people do enjoy and entertrain each other constantly via conversationa nd social intercourse. it's what society is largely about? the fellow writing and others commenting on seattle freeze ARE saying they tried to interact, but the natives don't. the hostile reaction is a defense mechanism proving the charge of freezyness.
in ny or atlanta, making a comment about local mores would be more likely to lead to lively conversation including comments like "so true, we in nyc are jerks, but we love it!" or other comments comparing and contrasting ny with atlanta with seattle debating pros and cons of each: engagenement; revelation; entertainment. NOT the kind of "hey shut up don't engage me!" comment you have posted at 107.
in ny or atlanta, making a comment about local mores would be more likely to lead to lively conversation including comments like "so true, we in nyc are jerks, but we love it!" or other comments comparing and contrasting ny with atlanta with seattle debating pros and cons of each: engagenement; revelation; entertainment. NOT the kind of "hey shut up don't engage me!" comment you have posted at 107.
110
@ 107, how does such "interaction" begin, if not with eye contact? Do you want strangers to grab you from behind?
111
@89 It's the northwest region of MS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi…
There is a majority black population, but the most of wealth and business is owned by, go figure, the white minority.
There is a majority black population, but the most of wealth and business is owned by, go figure, the white minority.
112
"caucasians are not qualified to evaluate racism"
Tell that to Kris Krimes, James Paroline and Tuba Man.
Tell that to Kris Krimes, James Paroline and Tuba Man.
113
@83
Except when they're not. Then they're being passive aggressive.
People here are negative, sarcastic, and bitchy to no end. They will complain about anything given the chance - their job, the weather, their commute, their ever-aging techy gadgets that are usually less than 2 years old.
Except when they're not. Then they're being passive aggressive.
114
Whatever. Seattle is not the South or New York, so people who come here from the South or New York, who find out that this place doesn't match their expectations, and who are predisposed to hate the socially progressive strain in our culture, will rebrand those failed expectations, those differences, as faults.
And Seattle, with its devoted commitment to fairness and consideration of other perspectives, will too easily accept that narrative - we're cold, passive aggressive, or whatever. Go back and read the posts by the haters and tell me who's negative, cold, angry, and passive aggressive. A lot of the time, those pointing the finger are the ones guilty of the criticism. All that outward sociability masks a sharply critical perspective. They're haters, in other words, and you don't need more haters in your life.
So ignore them, Seattle. Hopefully they'll even go back to that fantasy place outside of King County where everyone is not as damaged, cold, frozen, passive aggressive, etc., as they are here. (But of course, we're so horrible and racist here that people keep moving in. If only we were like Eastern Washington, Mississippi, or Oklahoma.)
And Seattle, with its devoted commitment to fairness and consideration of other perspectives, will too easily accept that narrative - we're cold, passive aggressive, or whatever. Go back and read the posts by the haters and tell me who's negative, cold, angry, and passive aggressive. A lot of the time, those pointing the finger are the ones guilty of the criticism. All that outward sociability masks a sharply critical perspective. They're haters, in other words, and you don't need more haters in your life.
So ignore them, Seattle. Hopefully they'll even go back to that fantasy place outside of King County where everyone is not as damaged, cold, frozen, passive aggressive, etc., as they are here. (But of course, we're so horrible and racist here that people keep moving in. If only we were like Eastern Washington, Mississippi, or Oklahoma.)
117
"its devoted commitment to fairness and consideration of other perspectives"
Well, as long as they match the "progressive" agenda that is.
Well, as long as they match the "progressive" agenda that is.
119
I love these anecdotally supported "racist seattle" theories, especially when they come from the "Deep South". Here's the deal... people in the deep south, no matter their feelings on race, find comfort in the stark contrasts and well defined boundaries between the races. They come to Seattle and assume that all the same racism is here, but since they don't see the divsions so clearly makred out for them it makes them uneasy and they just conclude that all our racism is hidden and sneaky. Their overt racism, while racist, is more honorable, more honest racism! WAY TO GO DEEP SOUTH.
Of course the truth is that in Seattle, unlike the deep south, racism is culturally unacceptable and this means that those harboring racist ideology are a small minority and largely kept quiet and when they are exposed they are shunned. We don't tolerate that shit. Its how it SHOULD be.
If Frat boys are the lowest common denominator in the South and Seattle, how about this:
When Obama was reelected the frat boys at Ole Miss rioted. the frat boys at UW didn't. It wasn't because they were "better at pretending not to be racist". Its because they are WAY THE HELL LESS RACIST.
This discussion gets dumber every time we have it.
Of course the truth is that in Seattle, unlike the deep south, racism is culturally unacceptable and this means that those harboring racist ideology are a small minority and largely kept quiet and when they are exposed they are shunned. We don't tolerate that shit. Its how it SHOULD be.
If Frat boys are the lowest common denominator in the South and Seattle, how about this:
When Obama was reelected the frat boys at Ole Miss rioted. the frat boys at UW didn't. It wasn't because they were "better at pretending not to be racist". Its because they are WAY THE HELL LESS RACIST.
This discussion gets dumber every time we have it.
120
@114, As a New Yorker, I don't think you guys are socially progressive enough----King County missed the subway boat by not voting for Forward Thrust back in the day when the feds were generous with public transportation funding; courageous cops busting pidily jaywalkers, no avant-garde jazz to be found--I guess its too noisy for the hipper than thou local indie pop fans; and courageous cops jacking dangerous jaywalkers and profiling blacks, which while they do it in NYC, they've proactively investigated those cops without Seattle's denial of racism in the force.
At least you guys have a bit of a music scene, major league baseball and cheaper rents than NYC and SF.
As the Ramones said "Gabba Gabba we accept you".
At least you guys have a bit of a music scene, major league baseball and cheaper rents than NYC and SF.
As the Ramones said "Gabba Gabba we accept you".
121
@63, still not a lot of willingness to harbor the thought that someone on the outside sees things differently. People do get defensive and hostile all the time, it doesn't have anything to do woth a particular decade. Are there no defensive people now?
123
I've yet to meet anyone not from Seattle who didn't move to Seattle and then go on psychotropic medications.
It's just an anecdote, but one that I've found interesting.
On the other hand, I moved to SoCal and eventually went on anti-depressants. I feel much better about living in this shithole and I'm on a five year plan to get back to my beloved Seattle. I would much rather not have any interactions than the constant disingenuous bullshit that I go through down here.
It's just an anecdote, but one that I've found interesting.
On the other hand, I moved to SoCal and eventually went on anti-depressants. I feel much better about living in this shithole and I'm on a five year plan to get back to my beloved Seattle. I would much rather not have any interactions than the constant disingenuous bullshit that I go through down here.
124
Well bless your heart, author.
I would much rather live up here and have a few honest friends than live in the South and have everyone acting like my best friend to my face. We don't feel the need for all that kissy-kiss, back-slapping, up in your face & your business, gossipy style. Granted, I miss the food, but Catfish Corner helps.
Relax, have some coffee, and quit trying to force the issue.
I would much rather live up here and have a few honest friends than live in the South and have everyone acting like my best friend to my face. We don't feel the need for all that kissy-kiss, back-slapping, up in your face & your business, gossipy style. Granted, I miss the food, but Catfish Corner helps.
Relax, have some coffee, and quit trying to force the issue.
126
Did anyone read The Stranger's story title 'Are Seattle Schools Racist?' and Estlin Graves initial response "Is this a rhetorical question?"
For this story's "situation" my question also is 'Do Seattle Schools Discriminate?' besides presenting being racist.
For this story's "situation" my question also is 'Do Seattle Schools Discriminate?' besides presenting being racist.
127
Dude says Seattle is racist because black people aren't friendly enough to him?
Is that really what we're discussing here?
Is that really what we're discussing here?
128
@113, they'll complain about all that stuff, but they won't complain about you to your face. Instead, they quietly judge, which is passive aggressive. People in New York complain, but it's funny and it's direct.
We can all smile, make eye contact and be a little more open and less judgy. More drinking and sex would also help the collective mindset. Less Whining, More Barking.
We can all smile, make eye contact and be a little more open and less judgy. More drinking and sex would also help the collective mindset. Less Whining, More Barking.
129
@123- I was on Prozac before I came to Seattle and I've quit since then.
(Though to be honest I did have to up my dosage for a bit, but then I terminated the relationship I was in and started exercising more. I'm feeling much better now.)
(Though to be honest I did have to up my dosage for a bit, but then I terminated the relationship I was in and started exercising more. I'm feeling much better now.)
130
Seattle people are chilly. It's true. Not the friendliest. Sue them. That doesn't make them particularly racist. Seattle is the home of liberal whiteness--widespread opposition to overt and mainline racisms but with plenty of assumed privilege running around. That's bad. It's up to the people of Seattle--all of them--to keep working on it.
But the SOUTH?! You're kidding me. You must be joking. Whole TOWNS are defacto segregated from each other. White people and black people RARELY talk. People use the word "nigger" with impunity--white people, addressed toward black people. There are monuments to the Klan. They cover and revise the history of KKK and the Confederacy. There STILL ARE KLAN ALL OVER! Alabama and Mississippi are deeply messed up places where race-baiting plays well socially and politically. I still believe you're either a joker or liar, OP.
But the SOUTH?! You're kidding me. You must be joking. Whole TOWNS are defacto segregated from each other. White people and black people RARELY talk. People use the word "nigger" with impunity--white people, addressed toward black people. There are monuments to the Klan. They cover and revise the history of KKK and the Confederacy. There STILL ARE KLAN ALL OVER! Alabama and Mississippi are deeply messed up places where race-baiting plays well socially and politically. I still believe you're either a joker or liar, OP.
131
Victim mentality. I have a bunch of friends from the south and so do other people I know.
What a miserable rant. I'm sorry I wasted my time reading it all.
What a miserable rant. I'm sorry I wasted my time reading it all.
132
Maybe it's just my native northwesterness, but I just don't really enjoy being around people. It's not passive aggressive, it's an honest-to-God preference to just stay in my own house with the people I love and read and internet and be quiet. It's nothing personal or race-related; I dislike being around all people equally. It's just introversion. Maybe that's what the "Seattle freeze" is all about.
And, oddly enough, race doesn't even cross my mind until someone brings up How Totally Racist Everyone Is, which is almost every day, especially on the Stranger. At work, sometimes I refer to people as "the black patient in room 9," but I do it because it's an easy way to identify someone, not to insinuate anything about their character. Likewise, patients often refer to their nurses as "the Asian lady," or whatever. If that's racism, I guess we're all fucked.
And, oddly enough, race doesn't even cross my mind until someone brings up How Totally Racist Everyone Is, which is almost every day, especially on the Stranger. At work, sometimes I refer to people as "the black patient in room 9," but I do it because it's an easy way to identify someone, not to insinuate anything about their character. Likewise, patients often refer to their nurses as "the Asian lady," or whatever. If that's racism, I guess we're all fucked.
133
I have to join the forced eye contact is creepy camp. If someone is staring me down I think I am going to get in a fight, they are begging for money or worse. Maybe if you stopped staring down random strangers on the street they might talk to you.
134
"Don't all these passive-aggressive West Coast pricks drive you mad?"
Coming from the east coast, the most passive-aggressive people seem to be imports.
Coming from the east coast, the most passive-aggressive people seem to be imports.
136
If you want to scare someone in Chicago or New York, point a gun at them.
If you want to scare someone in Seattle, smile and say "Hi"
If you want to scare someone in Seattle, smile and say "Hi"
137
@136- Strangers in Seattle are so much more likely to talk to you than in New York.
You're so gods damn ignorant.
You're so gods damn ignorant.
138
@136... you are seriously delusional. Maybe a brainwashing would be good for you?
When you're forced to be elbow to elbow commuting with strangers on a daily basis, you have to have some degree of civility and frequently experience really wonderful unexpected moments with people you don't know. When you're in a less dense place and do more commuting by car, it seems to make people a little less likely to speak even when they are forced into contact with each other.
When you're forced to be elbow to elbow commuting with strangers on a daily basis, you have to have some degree of civility and frequently experience really wonderful unexpected moments with people you don't know. When you're in a less dense place and do more commuting by car, it seems to make people a little less likely to speak even when they are forced into contact with each other.
140
OOPS: 136 -- I totally misread your comment. Sorry! My rage and disbelief should be directed at @137 instead.
141
@140- I'm from New York, asshole. You rage and disbelief should crawl up your ass, die, rot, and kill you with their effluvia.
143
@141: "Rage" and might have been poor word choices and I apologize for that. It sounds from your comments that Seattle is a much better fit for you than NYC -- I'm assuming you mean NYC and not upstate New York or Long Island, in which case I'd agree people are slightly more likely to talk to strangers in Seattle than either of those two places -- I left NYC for Seattle because spaces were too small, people were too intense, and there wasn't enough nature. I spent the first two years In the NW feeling isolated and only really broke through in my third year when I made some amazing friends who I still cherish, many of whom were transplants like myself, although I also met some wonderful locals.
Five years later I returned because I missed the frankness, diversity*, cuisine, but most of all the sense of community. I miss my friends in Seattle, and the hiking, but little else. @141: It sounds like you're in the right city for you. I don't know if you're originally from the NE but most of us I've spoken with have had a similar experience to myself. They make peace with it and stay, or resist it and go, but few people have ever described Seattle as outgoing and friendly. I am happy to be back where old ladies pinch me on the subway and tell me receipts are falling out of my bag, I get complimented on my sneakers at the gym, and roughhousing tween girls tell me *I* should say "excuse me" after knocking my phone out of my hands at a bus stop. This may have not been your experience, but it is mine, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.
* Blah, blah, blah, "most diverse area code in the US." But honestly, outside of a few select neighborhoods, Seattle is generally really, really white. It doesn't make the town racist, just un/intentionally segregated.
Five years later I returned because I missed the frankness, diversity*, cuisine, but most of all the sense of community. I miss my friends in Seattle, and the hiking, but little else. @141: It sounds like you're in the right city for you. I don't know if you're originally from the NE but most of us I've spoken with have had a similar experience to myself. They make peace with it and stay, or resist it and go, but few people have ever described Seattle as outgoing and friendly. I am happy to be back where old ladies pinch me on the subway and tell me receipts are falling out of my bag, I get complimented on my sneakers at the gym, and roughhousing tween girls tell me *I* should say "excuse me" after knocking my phone out of my hands at a bus stop. This may have not been your experience, but it is mine, and I wouldn't trade it for the world.
* Blah, blah, blah, "most diverse area code in the US." But honestly, outside of a few select neighborhoods, Seattle is generally really, really white. It doesn't make the town racist, just un/intentionally segregated.
144
@143, glad you finally figured out where you really want to be. I wish the New Yorkers who moved to Seattle would stop trying to turn it into New York. If they don't like Seattle, they should do what you did.
145
@144 -- some ex new yorkers like seattle better, but believe it's okay, even informative, entertaining and sociable, to chatter about what's to like and not like about this place or any other place, instead of being too uptight about it all and declarating if you mention ANYTHING you're "tryihg to turn it into New York!"....the effect of
"if you don't like something, move away" is to shut down conversation which is valued by some of us as an end in itself; and this reinforces the seattle freeze stereotype.
believe me, in nyc, in the south, back east, in st. louis, they will happily talk with you for hours about the pluses and minuses of those places. only seattle is so intolerant of a good chat. why, it's as if the seattle freeze stereotype is true!
"if you don't like something, move away" is to shut down conversation which is valued by some of us as an end in itself; and this reinforces the seattle freeze stereotype.
believe me, in nyc, in the south, back east, in st. louis, they will happily talk with you for hours about the pluses and minuses of those places. only seattle is so intolerant of a good chat. why, it's as if the seattle freeze stereotype is true!
146
@132 - word. I'm not comfortable with any form of forced social interaction, and trying to make eye contact with me is just going to freak me out. I'm Asperger's, I can barely make eye contact with people I have intimate relationships with. I would be utterly miserable in a social climate where I was expected to make chit-chat - I've never learned how - or where people felt free to drop by my house uninvited (I don't care if it's a neighbor with a pie, I don't like surprise visits, ever. Maybe from Publisher's Clearing House.). I recognize that not everyone has these antisocial tendencies. There are other cities where most people are not like me. I'm happier here, where the percentage of unsocial freaks is higher.
147
Racism isn't "allowed to exist". No society or culture can "allow" its existence. Don't get me wrong -- racism and racial divide do constitute a societal problem. However, the responsibility for a solution lies within each and every individual -- not an entity known as society -- because racist attitudes lie within the hearts and minds of the individual.
And, sadly, racism is harbored in the hearts and minds of certain individual persons within almost any given race, culture or society.
We each need to take personal responsibility for ourselves and stop calling upon "society" to fix the problems which we, as individuals, cause and perpetuate. Society didn't create us -- we created society. Off my soapbox now. Thank you for your time.
And, sadly, racism is harbored in the hearts and minds of certain individual persons within almost any given race, culture or society.
We each need to take personal responsibility for ourselves and stop calling upon "society" to fix the problems which we, as individuals, cause and perpetuate. Society didn't create us -- we created society. Off my soapbox now. Thank you for your time.
148
@128
"We can all smile, make eye contact"
You don't get it. We don't want to smile and make eye contact. We are introverts. Seattle is an introverted city. Not chilly, not hostile, not (necessarily) passive-aggressive, not more racist than other places. Introverted. It's not that hard to figure out.
"We can all smile, make eye contact"
You don't get it. We don't want to smile and make eye contact. We are introverts. Seattle is an introverted city. Not chilly, not hostile, not (necessarily) passive-aggressive, not more racist than other places. Introverted. It's not that hard to figure out.
150
@143- You've experienced a completely opposite world than I have. Stop posting from Bizzaro land. (I'm from Upstate, BTW. "Stay the hell off my land." territory.)
151
*Yawn* Another three-digit long circle jerk comprised mostly of people not from Seattle complaining about a bunch of other people, also mostly not from Seattle, who, strangely, treat them just like they were treated in the shit-hole small towns they all couldn't wait to get out of because nobody liked them much there, either.
Yep, never seen THAT before...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Yep, never seen THAT before...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
153
Ummm...how did you end up in New York en route to Seattle if you were driving here from the "deep South" [which shouldn't be capitalized like that, by the way]? That adda up to an extra 1000 miles of driving onto your trip. Unless the point was to waste gas, time and money driving to your new home, I'm not sure what was accomplished. Since your fancy liberal arts university degree didn't cover basic geometry, let me give you a little tip:
when trying to get from point A to point B, don't travel in a right angle. It's faster and more efficient to go diagonally [the hypotenuse]. I just saved you days of travel time and tons of gas money for when you leave. You're welcome.
Also, there are MANY things about Seattle that suck ass. And somehow you failed to get any of them right you idiot.
when trying to get from point A to point B, don't travel in a right angle. It's faster and more efficient to go diagonally [the hypotenuse]. I just saved you days of travel time and tons of gas money for when you leave. You're welcome.
Also, there are MANY things about Seattle that suck ass. And somehow you failed to get any of them right you idiot.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
All You Motherfuckers Complaining That aPodments Are Too Small at 200 Square Feet by Dominic Holden
-
SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!) by Dan Savage
-
Rightwing Anti-Gay French Activist Commits Suicide at Notre Dame Cathedral by Dan Savage
-
It's Spring! Who's Ready for Street Harassment? by Cienna Madrid
-
Spoiled Rotten: Star Trek Into Darkness by Paul Constant
-
America's Epidemic of Toddler-on-Toddler Gun Violence Continues by Goldy
-
Slog Overnight by Dan Savage
-
Saint Genet Re-Creates "Shoot" by Brendan Kiley
-
Dutch Artist Turns Dead Cat into Remote-Controlled Helicopter by Bethany Jean Clement
-
New Gun Enthusiast... by Dan Savage
Stranger Personals
The Stranger
RSSSeattle Art & Performance Quarterly
A complete guide to Seattle's current art, film, dance, and theater season.
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (154) RSS