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News & ArtsThursday, March 14, 2013
Religion How Does a Megachurch Pastor Treat Depression?
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 1:00 PM
The last time I was stressed, exhausted, and depressed, I didn't fuck a sixteen-year-old who came to me seeking advice. I took a vacation. But then I'm not a bible-humping, family-values-espousing, gay-bashing pastor of some shitty megachurch.
Once again: if kids got raped at Denny's as often as they get raped in churches—if kids got raped at Denny's half as often as they get raped in churches—people would call CPS on parents foolish or reckless enough to take their kids to Denny's. It would be illegal to take your kids to Denny's.
2
I'm with you on this one Dan. As a parent, I wouldn't let my kid go anywhere near a church ,the boy scouts or any other "morally superior" institution. I coach Little League mostly because I'm a baseball junkie but also so I know who is coaching my son. Words cannot express my anger and disgust at assholes that prey on the vulnerable while hiding behind the bible. I'm speechless when it comes to the parents that send their kids into that environment with no protection because they believe a "man of god" wouldn't harm their kids.
4
I've often felt a little bit raped eating at a Denny's...but I guess I WAS asking for it...hell, I even paid for it!
5
@2 Not all churches fetishize sexual repression. Not all churches are Bible-humping. Not all churches are "family-values"-espousing. Not all churches are gay bashing. Not all churches are populated by assholes that prey on the vulnerable.
6
Religion is about control. Rape is about control. Chocolate, meet peanut butter.
You got some religion in my rape! NO. You got some rape in my religion.
Hey, look! A new Pope.
You got some religion in my rape! NO. You got some rape in my religion.
Hey, look! A new Pope.
7
The problem with your analogy, Dan, is that people don't believe that what they are getting from their church is equivalent to trips to Denny's.
I'd probably say that adherents think of it more like the hospital; sure, at that point your child might be among the small fraction of children treated to be raped, but at least your child was saved.
It's not that your statement isn't interesting or enlightening, it's just that it isn't explanatory.
I'd probably say that adherents think of it more like the hospital; sure, at that point your child might be among the small fraction of children treated to be raped, but at least your child was saved.
It's not that your statement isn't interesting or enlightening, it's just that it isn't explanatory.
10
Didn't The Stranger recommend eating at Denny's after they kicked out some cops for having their guns?
12
@7: Child molesters are soul killers. The Church is supposed to save it. So bringing your child into an institution that systematically houses, coddles, and protects child molesters is antithetical to the exercise. Going to Denny's for family time and having your child raped achieves the same grisly principle.
13
Valpey @5: Don't tell us that. Tell them that.
I think there was something in that book about eyes and a mote and a log, wasn't there?
I think there was something in that book about eyes and a mote and a log, wasn't there?
15
@12 No one would question a parent who brought their child in for a life-saving procedure, even if there was 1% chance of permanent disability (say, blindness), or even an order of magnitude higher.
The percentage of children known to have been molested in the Catholic Church (perhaps the only one big and powerful enough to make itself complicit, on such a wide scale), is much lower than that.
None of that makes the rape (or complicity) right, good, excusable, etc., it's just that it's different than a trip to Denny's.
The percentage of children known to have been molested in the Catholic Church (perhaps the only one big and powerful enough to make itself complicit, on such a wide scale), is much lower than that.
None of that makes the rape (or complicity) right, good, excusable, etc., it's just that it's different than a trip to Denny's.
16
@15 I meant that a tiny minority of people would would question a parent bringing their kid into a hospital for a life-saving procedure; unfortunately, those objecting would do so primarily on religious grounds.
17
Look on the bright side: we're finding out about this in a court of law, not from some files the Church had to be sued to release, detailing the decades of sexual molestation.
18
@15: It's not just the incidents of rape in the Church. It's the complicity within the whole institution. If a hospital permanently disables your child, there's an INTERNAL investigation that will lead to consequence for the staff and the resolution to never allow such a thing to occur again. That's not just the ethos of an individual hospital, it's the ethos of the medical community. Would I take my child to a hospital that had lost a patient due to malpractice? Yes, because I know that the mistakes made were addressed and corrected. Would I take my child to a church that had previously been the locus of a child rape scandal? Hell no, because evasion and complicity has been the ethos of the Catholic Church for decades. So if Denny's the company's policies leaned towards cover-up with regards to child rape in general, would take my child to any of their franchises? Again, hell no. I don't we're disagreeing on the principle so much as the analogy. I think it's sound.
19
@18 Yes, I am definitely arguing the analogy.
In my hospital counter-analogy, I was actually thinking the procedure simply carries the risk, much like the Catholic Church without reform in this area, continues to have potential rape and cover-up side-effects for some percentage of the children given it's soul-saving procedure.
In short, there is a risk-analysis that adherents would say clearly comes down in favor of continued adherence, in a way that I think is ignored by the Denny's analogy.
In my hospital counter-analogy, I was actually thinking the procedure simply carries the risk, much like the Catholic Church without reform in this area, continues to have potential rape and cover-up side-effects for some percentage of the children given it's soul-saving procedure.
In short, there is a risk-analysis that adherents would say clearly comes down in favor of continued adherence, in a way that I think is ignored by the Denny's analogy.
20
Prejudice. Bigotry. Hate.
Ugly things.
Ugly Ugly things.
That distort and contort those who embrace them.
Something bad happens.
It's done by someone you hate.
In your Hate and Intellectual Laziness you extrapolate it to EVERY member of the group.
Blacks.
Jews.
Faggots.
Xtians.
The targets vary.
The Hate and Bigotry and Prejudice are the same.
Ugly Ugly things.
So easy to see in others.
So hard to see in yourself, Danny.
Ugly things.
Ugly Ugly things.
That distort and contort those who embrace them.
Something bad happens.
It's done by someone you hate.
In your Hate and Intellectual Laziness you extrapolate it to EVERY member of the group.
Blacks.
Jews.
Faggots.
Xtians.
The targets vary.
The Hate and Bigotry and Prejudice are the same.
Ugly Ugly things.
So easy to see in others.
So hard to see in yourself, Danny.
21
@19: With regards to the risk analysis, it only holds true for adherents. If religion and spirituality are requirements- and not Catholicism specifically- one could just take one's child to another church (perhaps non-denominational). The same way one would take their family to another restaurant if their children were abused at Denny's. And that is exactly what's happened (to the Church) in actuality.
22
@20: Finger-wagging at Dan for bigotry while referring to gays as "faggots" kind of deflates your argument and makes you a hypocrite, don't you think?
26
@15 Are you comparing a visit to a Catholic church to a life saving medical procedure?
If yes, then 'wow'.
Else 'wtf are you talking about?'
If yes, then 'wow'.
Else 'wtf are you talking about?'
27
wow
its just too bad he wasn't a lesbian.
then the reaction to the
whole 'fucking a 16 year old'
would just be a 'tut-tut'...
Right Danny?
its just too bad he wasn't a lesbian.
then the reaction to the
whole 'fucking a 16 year old'
would just be a 'tut-tut'...
Right Danny?
28
@26 "Are you comparing a visit to a Catholic church to a life saving medical procedure?"
If you are amazed that there is a large portion of Americans who believe something analogous to this, you are not paying attention.
@21 "one could just take one's child to another church [...] And that is exactly what's happened (to the Church) in actuality."
Is it? According to CARA (Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate), there are more self-identifying Catholics (78.2m v. 48.5m), and more Catholics in The Official Catholic Directory (66.3m v. 45.6m), than there were in 1965.
cara.georgetown.edu/
CARAServices/
requestedchurchstats.html
Admittedly, Catholic elementary attendance fell pretty dramatically over this time frame, but the overall membership numbers are trending up.
(While CARA is clearly self interested, I chose them because having a chart was handy and it was easy to find. Feel free to pull census data or something else authoritative, if you think the numbers are bullshit.)
If you are amazed that there is a large portion of Americans who believe something analogous to this, you are not paying attention.
@21 "one could just take one's child to another church [...] And that is exactly what's happened (to the Church) in actuality."
Is it? According to CARA (Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate), there are more self-identifying Catholics (78.2m v. 48.5m), and more Catholics in The Official Catholic Directory (66.3m v. 45.6m), than there were in 1965.
cara.georgetown.edu/
CARAServices/
requestedchurchstats.html
Admittedly, Catholic elementary attendance fell pretty dramatically over this time frame, but the overall membership numbers are trending up.
(While CARA is clearly self interested, I chose them because having a chart was handy and it was easy to find. Feel free to pull census data or something else authoritative, if you think the numbers are bullshit.)
29
Are we still arguing analogy or is it statistics now? No offense, but I'm kind of exhausted. Let's agree to disagree.
31
@29 A little of both, I guess.
I still think the Denny's frame doesn't work very well, but I do see it a bit more fully now.
Thanks for arguing with me.
I still think the Denny's frame doesn't work very well, but I do see it a bit more fully now.
Thanks for arguing with me.
32
@31: Anytime. You're very well-informed, which is such a relief from the trolls. Have a good one.
34
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