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News & ArtsWednesday, March 13, 2013
Guns / Olympia Washington State's Pro-Suicide House
Posted by Goldy on Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 4:44 PM
If there's one thing both Republicans and Democrats can agree on in Olympia, it's suicide: Both parties are for it! At least, that's the only rational conclusion I can come to following the state House's failure to pass a bill requiring universal background checks on the sale of most firearms.
According to a report in Mother Jones, gun suicide rates are twice those in states that do not require background checks on private handgun sales than they are in those that do. Yet non-gun suicide rates remain about the same. That means suicide rates overall are higher in states that don't require a background check than in those that do.
This largely holds true for Washington state whose rate of 14 suicides per 100,000 residents is consistently higher than the national average of 12 suicides per 100,000. Much of this difference can arguably be attributed to Washington's gun suicide rate of 6.5 per 100,000, two points higher than the 4.5 per 100,000 rate for background check states.
In other words: Our lack of background checks is killing about 138 Washingtonians a year. Just by suicide. Yay for freedom!
How can this be? Well, studies have shown that suicides tend to be impulsive acts of opportunity. Many in crisis who can't easily access a gun will try a less lethal means, or won't even attempt suicide at all. Indeed, a July, 2012 report to Congress from the Military Suicide Research Consortium concluded that "method substitution is rare."
So by refusing to impose background checks on the private sale of firearms, our lawmakers have made it easier to quickly acquire a weapon. And by making it easier to quickly acquire a weapon, they have made it easier to impulsively commit suicide by the most effective means possible.
It's a particular irony for the Republican caucus, which with the exception of Representative Mike Hope (R-Lake Stevens) opposed the background check legislation as a block. So much for being the "Pro-Life" party.
1
Sad but true.
My grandfather (technically my step-grandfather) committed suicide with his hunting rifle when his health failed.
Mind you, we lived in a rural area, and pretty much everyone had hunting rifles, so he probably would have succeeded eventually.
After all, you don't want them driving their car or truck into Puget Sound, do you?
My grandfather (technically my step-grandfather) committed suicide with his hunting rifle when his health failed.
Mind you, we lived in a rural area, and pretty much everyone had hunting rifles, so he probably would have succeeded eventually.
After all, you don't want them driving their car or truck into Puget Sound, do you?
2
Hey Goldy, you lying blowhard, care to tell us why the U.S. suicide rate ranks 18th among OECD countries when virtually (if not all) the ones ahead of us have much tighter gun control than we do? Or are you afraid of the truth, as usual?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OEC…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OEC…
3
Washington has a higher suicide rate because it is further North, leading to a higher rate of Seasonal Affective Disorder. Likewise Scandinavia has a higher suicide rate than Southern Europe.
But once again Goldy rails against our legislature for following the will of the voters rather than the will of David Goldstein and his millionare cohorts, Bloomberg and Nick Hanauer with their bigoted anti-civil rights agenda.
But once again Goldy rails against our legislature for following the will of the voters rather than the will of David Goldstein and his millionare cohorts, Bloomberg and Nick Hanauer with their bigoted anti-civil rights agenda.
4
In this state you can get pills from the doc to finish your life, you can get an abortion, who gives a flying fuck if you off yourself by any method?
6
You got me excited about a "death with dignity" post and then disappointed me with more anti-gun hysteria.
Can we focus on the foundation of this problem instead? Remember the mentally ill people who need help? Remember them?
Can we focus on the foundation of this problem instead? Remember the mentally ill people who need help? Remember them?
7
Well. Actual facts about suicides and gun availability will put a damper on f.u.'s "100% ban" refrain.
8
#7, no it won't. Goldy and his side will keep spouting their bullshit. This won't end until they get an initiative on the ballot, and get their asses kicked again. And then they still will blame everyone but their own obnoxious, self-righteous selves.
9
This is so fucking stupid I almost don't know where to start.
If you're intent on blowing your head off on a whim, you can drive (or take a bus) a few minutes to your nearest Big 5 or Fred Meyer, ask for a shotgun, fill out the form, pass the check, buy the gun and a five shells, walk out to the parking lot and Kurt Cobain yourself right beside the cart return. I'd wager most people reading this could do it in less than 90 minutes.
There is literally no plausible way you could do it faster in a private sale, if it were truly a whim.
Get your shit together, Goldy, this is embarrassing from someone who normally uses at least a thin thread of logic in his writing.
If you're intent on blowing your head off on a whim, you can drive (or take a bus) a few minutes to your nearest Big 5 or Fred Meyer, ask for a shotgun, fill out the form, pass the check, buy the gun and a five shells, walk out to the parking lot and Kurt Cobain yourself right beside the cart return. I'd wager most people reading this could do it in less than 90 minutes.
There is literally no plausible way you could do it faster in a private sale, if it were truly a whim.
Get your shit together, Goldy, this is embarrassing from someone who normally uses at least a thin thread of logic in his writing.
10
"At least, that's the only rational conclusion I can come to following the state House's failure to pass a bill requiring universal background checks on the sale of most firearms."
I don't think "rational" means what you think it does.
To me it implies that your (and others) tendency to exclude everyone with a more nuanced view of guns than yours is impeding even basic legislation.
And the supporting documentation at Mother Jones does not seem to exist.
"If some in a crisis simply can't access a gun quickly, they may not try suicide at all, ..."
You'll have to provide some documentation for that.
I don't think "rational" means what you think it does.
To me it implies that your (and others) tendency to exclude everyone with a more nuanced view of guns than yours is impeding even basic legislation.
And the supporting documentation at Mother Jones does not seem to exist.
"If some in a crisis simply can't access a gun quickly, they may not try suicide at all, ..."
You'll have to provide some documentation for that.
11
@ 10, a starting point.
Suicide is often impulsively decided upon, and it's demonstrably true that closing off easy avenues to committing it prevent people from doing so. It's the reason why your 100% ban refrain is patently false.
Suicide is often impulsively decided upon, and it's demonstrably true that closing off easy avenues to committing it prevent people from doing so. It's the reason why your 100% ban refrain is patently false.
12
@9 Well, I suppose you're free to disagree with all the research out there that says what I say it says. I provided the links. Feel free to disregard it.
And there isn't any global warming either, I guess.
And there isn't any global warming either, I guess.
13
@12
Stop crying your crocodile tears for the victims of suicide, you have not done shit to prevent suicide until you found a point that went well with your little "guns are scary, I don't like the kind people that own them" agenda.
Stop crying your crocodile tears for the victims of suicide, you have not done shit to prevent suicide until you found a point that went well with your little "guns are scary, I don't like the kind people that own them" agenda.
14
@12
Stop crying your crocodile tears for the victims of suicide, you have not done shit to prevent suicide until you found a point that went well with your little "guns are scary, I don't like the kind of people that own them" agenda.
Stop crying your crocodile tears for the victims of suicide, you have not done shit to prevent suicide until you found a point that went well with your little "guns are scary, I don't like the kind of people that own them" agenda.
15
What the hell is wrong with requiring someone to get a background check and training in handling a gun prior to purchasing it? I mean after all it would help in determining if the user was functioning as expected.
Which is as an unbalanced friend of mine recently very patiently explained to me is what "well regulated" means.
Which is as an unbalanced friend of mine recently very patiently explained to me is what "well regulated" means.
16
@12: How about, as @1 points out, there are any number of westernized countries out there with higher suicide rates and tougher gun control laws? And any number of states with higher suicide rates and strict gun laws? Or higher suicide rates and low gun ownership?
But, by all means. Make it about the guns.
But, by all means. Make it about the guns.
17
Look at Vancouver BC suicide rates for year 1997- 2005.
http://www.primetimecrime.com/contributi…
It would be interesting to know if they tightened gun access because there is a mild trend in decreasing gun deaths, yet the overall suicide rate remains static at 510 +- 35. If it's not a gun, it's pills, rope, CO, jumping (wee!), etc. Plot the data, it is a meandering sine curve.
http://www.primetimecrime.com/contributi…
It would be interesting to know if they tightened gun access because there is a mild trend in decreasing gun deaths, yet the overall suicide rate remains static at 510 +- 35. If it's not a gun, it's pills, rope, CO, jumping (wee!), etc. Plot the data, it is a meandering sine curve.
18
#15, the devil's in the details, and the details of the proposed "assault weapons" ban included a sheriff's right to annual inspections of the homes of anyone who own an "assault weapon," which implies registration and confiscation. The sponsors of that proposal lied through their teeth about it, so why should those pushing for background checks be trusted?
19
I see that the lying piece of shit, Goldy, remains afraid of the truth, which is that the U.S. ranks 18th in per-capita suicides among OECD countries, most (and maybe all) of which have tighter gun laws than we do. His claim that gun ownership equals more suicide is bullshit. Take away the guns, and people will find other ways to kill themselves, as they do in places like Japan, Belgium, Sweden, France, and South Korea (strict gun laws, but triple the U.S. suicide rate and #1 in the OECD).
Come on Goldy, you liar, out with it.
Come on Goldy, you liar, out with it.
22
And let's not forget the lucky ones who botch their shots and end up alive, permanently impaired, and sucking away at your tax dollars when they end up in need of life-long medical care at the gubmints' expense. RomneyCare Rules!
23
The Republican Party's 2014 agenda has just been introduced. Here's a clip of a press conference detailing their new policies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2YVRu09n…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2YVRu09n…
24
Actually, there is a much better correlation between percentage of rural population and suicide than there is between firearm ownership and suicide. Which is to say that states with relatively high gun control, that are also rural, have similar rates of suicide to that of states with relatively low gun control but similar amounts of rural residents.
I've provided links to data in the past. You can find 'em or you can find your own.
As far as using Mother Jones as a reference - in their original data on "assault weapons" used by mass shooters, they included ALL long guns, including bolt-action rifles as "assault weapons". Which says that they have even less journalistic integrity than, say, the Seattle PI.
I've provided links to data in the past. You can find 'em or you can find your own.
As far as using Mother Jones as a reference - in their original data on "assault weapons" used by mass shooters, they included ALL long guns, including bolt-action rifles as "assault weapons". Which says that they have even less journalistic integrity than, say, the Seattle PI.
25
So 21. People kill themselves impulsively. What's your solution? Lay it out for us. What do the non-suicidal 340 million US citizens need to do to accommodate the 30k that whack themselves?
26
Wow, the troll is running out of vocabulary. The various personae can't get beyond using some form of the word "shit." Read some more of Goldy's stuff. He knows how to swear creatively.
28
The decline in British suicides after the shift from coal gas doesn't prove anything, because it's not the only major change there with respect to suicide. Or to use a well-worn phrase, "correlation does not equal causality."
Something else happened in Britain during the period that coal gas was being phased out. One is that their economy improved, and living standards went up. Another is that, in 1953, one of the world's first anti-suicide organizations was formed, The Samaritans. It took a while to get going. It didn't spring fully formed from nothing. As it grew, there was more awareness there of suicide, and more avenues of help.
The Samaritans now operates in 38 countries, including the United States. The first Samaritans chapter in this country was established in Boston in 1974. Prior to that, there were isolated crisis lines, often established to help people who were freaked out on drugs. Since the early 1970s, as the awareness of suicide spread and it became more acceptable to discuss it without shame, the U.S. suicide rate has fallen by one-fifth, from roughly 12.5 per 100,000 to roughly 10 per 100,000.
File:Suicide-deaths-per-100000-trend.jpg">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Suicid…
I am in no way pro-suicide. In fact, I was a Samaritans volunteer. I am very aware of this issue, and have my own belief as to the major causes. To the point about impulsive suicides, I'm in favor of a gun purchase waiting period. But again, that's a matter of the details, just like with background checks. The problem is that the gun control forces have lied about those details, so I don't think they can be trusted.
And Goldy, well, he lies as effortlessly as he breathes. It's so typical. Until the gun control lobby is willing to forthrightly deal with the details of their proposals, and not tell the sorts of cheesy lies of the kind that came from Kline and Murray, they've lost me.
More...
Something else happened in Britain during the period that coal gas was being phased out. One is that their economy improved, and living standards went up. Another is that, in 1953, one of the world's first anti-suicide organizations was formed, The Samaritans. It took a while to get going. It didn't spring fully formed from nothing. As it grew, there was more awareness there of suicide, and more avenues of help.
The Samaritans now operates in 38 countries, including the United States. The first Samaritans chapter in this country was established in Boston in 1974. Prior to that, there were isolated crisis lines, often established to help people who were freaked out on drugs. Since the early 1970s, as the awareness of suicide spread and it became more acceptable to discuss it without shame, the U.S. suicide rate has fallen by one-fifth, from roughly 12.5 per 100,000 to roughly 10 per 100,000.
File:Suicide-deaths-per-100000-trend.jpg">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Suicid…
I am in no way pro-suicide. In fact, I was a Samaritans volunteer. I am very aware of this issue, and have my own belief as to the major causes. To the point about impulsive suicides, I'm in favor of a gun purchase waiting period. But again, that's a matter of the details, just like with background checks. The problem is that the gun control forces have lied about those details, so I don't think they can be trusted.
And Goldy, well, he lies as effortlessly as he breathes. It's so typical. Until the gun control lobby is willing to forthrightly deal with the details of their proposals, and not tell the sorts of cheesy lies of the kind that came from Kline and Murray, they've lost me.
30
@28 How much do you get paid to troll here?
You can talk about international suicide rates all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that GUN SUICIDE RATES in states without background checks are TWICE what they are in states that impose background checks. That's the issue here.
And it doesn't change all the studies showing that easy access to guns increases the risk of gun suicide.
But go ahead... change the topic again. That's what trolls do.
You can talk about international suicide rates all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that GUN SUICIDE RATES in states without background checks are TWICE what they are in states that impose background checks. That's the issue here.
And it doesn't change all the studies showing that easy access to guns increases the risk of gun suicide.
But go ahead... change the topic again. That's what trolls do.
31
There are two broad categories of suicide. One is health-related suicides, which are a very different animal than the rest. I predict that Washington State's harshly puritanical approach to prescribing painkillers for chronic pain will increase that portion of the suicide rate here.
If Goldy actually gave a flying fuck about suicide -- which he doesn't -- he'd go after the University of Washington and their friends in the Legislature and the state health bureaucracy for the suffering they are imposing on people with chronic pain. It's cruel to the point of ghastly in some cases, and I think people will kill themselves because of it. If they don't, they will suffer needlessly, all because the state wants to penalize the street trade in vicodin and oxycontin by denying these medications to people who really need them.
Goldy, you're a putrid faker. You don't care about truth, facts, or people. You never have, and you never will. For you, it's always about the jostle for political power. I'd ask you if you had any shame, but we already know that answer.
If Goldy actually gave a flying fuck about suicide -- which he doesn't -- he'd go after the University of Washington and their friends in the Legislature and the state health bureaucracy for the suffering they are imposing on people with chronic pain. It's cruel to the point of ghastly in some cases, and I think people will kill themselves because of it. If they don't, they will suffer needlessly, all because the state wants to penalize the street trade in vicodin and oxycontin by denying these medications to people who really need them.
Goldy, you're a putrid faker. You don't care about truth, facts, or people. You never have, and you never will. For you, it's always about the jostle for political power. I'd ask you if you had any shame, but we already know that answer.
32
Goldy, how much do I get paid to "troll" here? Less than you get paid for being a slimy, pig-sucking, supercilious liberal hypocrite who only pretends to give a shit, and not very well at that. Yep, anyone who disagrees with your arrogant, superior bullshit is a troll. Fuck you and the diseased horse you rode in on, you phony.
33
Oh, and something else Goldy. There are no states "without background checks," you execrable scab. It's a federal requirement. Truth hurts, doesn't it, you piece of shit?
34
@ 28, except for your way too casual tossing around of "correlation is not causation," which makes me wonder if you read the whole story, that's mostly good. But it wasn't just the coal-gas story; there is tons of solid evidence proving that removing easy means to suicide reduces suicide. And guns are just about the most effective means to kill oneself.
Now, I'm not sure to what extent background checks can prevent impulsive suicides. Those who are impulsive usually are not likely to be clinically depressed or bipolar, or suffering other mental disorders that might cause them to be turned down. (Those who are might be saved if they're turned down, but those people are likely to think about suicide for a lot longer, and may be more determined when they finally do it. Still, being forced to try a less-deadly way to commit suicide might prevent them from actually succeeding.) But I would guess that a thorough check would take a lot of time and the impulsive person would either be discouraged from trying, or else would come out of their brief crisis before the check was complete.
Now, I'm not sure to what extent background checks can prevent impulsive suicides. Those who are impulsive usually are not likely to be clinically depressed or bipolar, or suffering other mental disorders that might cause them to be turned down. (Those who are might be saved if they're turned down, but those people are likely to think about suicide for a lot longer, and may be more determined when they finally do it. Still, being forced to try a less-deadly way to commit suicide might prevent them from actually succeeding.) But I would guess that a thorough check would take a lot of time and the impulsive person would either be discouraged from trying, or else would come out of their brief crisis before the check was complete.
35
So, #34, you're going to deny a depressed person the right to own a gun? See, this is why the details count, and why telling the truth counts. Is that what you want to do?
36
Oh wait. Looks like #34 wants to deny an "impulsive" person the right to own a gun. Who makes the determination? On what criteria? What's the sunset provision? What are the appeal rights? After what went down with the "assault rifle" bill, you and your friends in the gun control lobby had better be prepared to have a highly detailed discussion if you want to succeed. Otherwise, file an initiative and watch your ass get kicked.
37
@ 35/36, looks like you didn't even read my comment. Go read it again (that is, really read it), then tell me if you still stand by your remarks.
39
@30
"All the studies"
You mean the ONE study done by Mother Jones, which doesn't really count as an unbiased source.
Also that study does not have nearly enough data points to make the case that it was guns that caused the suicide. It also needs to include income, where the state is located, percent of the state that is rural etc. But cherrypicking a single study seems to be how the gun control crowd does things
Kinda like the absolute falsehood that 40% of guns were sold without a background check that has been parroted by professional liars like David Goldstein and Barack Obama these past few months.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact…
"All the studies"
You mean the ONE study done by Mother Jones, which doesn't really count as an unbiased source.
Also that study does not have nearly enough data points to make the case that it was guns that caused the suicide. It also needs to include income, where the state is located, percent of the state that is rural etc. But cherrypicking a single study seems to be how the gun control crowd does things
Kinda like the absolute falsehood that 40% of guns were sold without a background check that has been parroted by professional liars like David Goldstein and Barack Obama these past few months.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact…
40
Suicide rates and correlation to coal generated power? Really? Dude you might consider cleaning your brain now and then based on your comments it appears a bit muddy in there.
All this chatter about suicides aside. What the hell does any of that have to do with requiring a back ground check and safety training before allowing someone to purchase a gun?
Note my unwashed friend I said nothing about home inspections, or confiscation of legally owned arms. Just a simple back ground check and a bit of safety training.
You know to make sure your not a felon, and at least when you drop into your inevitable paranoid delusional state, you don't shoot yourself while trying to shoot someone else.
Dude I'm trying to help you out here.
All this chatter about suicides aside. What the hell does any of that have to do with requiring a back ground check and safety training before allowing someone to purchase a gun?
Note my unwashed friend I said nothing about home inspections, or confiscation of legally owned arms. Just a simple back ground check and a bit of safety training.
You know to make sure your not a felon, and at least when you drop into your inevitable paranoid delusional state, you don't shoot yourself while trying to shoot someone else.
Dude I'm trying to help you out here.
41
@11
"Suicide is often impulsively decided upon, and it's demonstrably true that closing off easy avenues to committing it prevent people from doing so."
I do not disagree with any of that.
The problem is that YOU then start redefining "impulsively" to include things like getting out of the house, getting cash, driving to a gun show, finding a gun and ammo, purchasing such and then "impulsively" committing suicide.
Walmart
http://www.walmart.com/cp/Guns-Rifles-Am…
Even with your re-defined definition of "impulsively" that still does nothing to stop someone from using a gun to commit suicide IF they're willing to go buy one at Walmart.
"It's the reason why your 100% ban refrain is patently false."
Just because you want it to be false does not make it false.
No matter how many times you make that claim.
As long as people can buy guns there will be people who commit suicide with guns.
Whether they buy them at a FFL shop, a gun show or Walmart.
"Suicide is often impulsively decided upon, and it's demonstrably true that closing off easy avenues to committing it prevent people from doing so."
I do not disagree with any of that.
The problem is that YOU then start redefining "impulsively" to include things like getting out of the house, getting cash, driving to a gun show, finding a gun and ammo, purchasing such and then "impulsively" committing suicide.
Walmart
http://www.walmart.com/cp/Guns-Rifles-Am…
Even with your re-defined definition of "impulsively" that still does nothing to stop someone from using a gun to commit suicide IF they're willing to go buy one at Walmart.
"It's the reason why your 100% ban refrain is patently false."
Just because you want it to be false does not make it false.
No matter how many times you make that claim.
As long as people can buy guns there will be people who commit suicide with guns.
Whether they buy them at a FFL shop, a gun show or Walmart.
42
@33 Again, nice professional trolling technique. Take my short hand in the comment as evidence of a factual error, when in fact the post very specifically states "background checks on PRIVATE handgun sales." That is specifically what we are talking about. And yes, many states (Washington included) does not require background checks on private sales. That's the loophole we're trying to close.
But again, nice job of intentionally driving the thread off topic. You're good at what you do.
But again, nice job of intentionally driving the thread off topic. You're good at what you do.
43
@42
Goldy, didn't your write this?
"If there's one thing both Republicans and Democrats can agree on in Olympia, it's suicide: Both parties are for it!"
So your "topic" is that Republicans and Democrats (in Olympia) are pro-suicide.
This "journalism" thing is just another word to you, isn't it?
Goldy, didn't your write this?
"If there's one thing both Republicans and Democrats can agree on in Olympia, it's suicide: Both parties are for it!"
So your "topic" is that Republicans and Democrats (in Olympia) are pro-suicide.
This "journalism" thing is just another word to you, isn't it?
45
@41 I believe you are confusing back ground checks, which I'll grant you are not enough, with bans. As you yourself explained to me, my Unbalanced friend, it is important that both the armament and the user be functioning as expected.
Given your insistence that both armament and user be well regulated. I don't understand why you keep confusing back ground checks with bans, nor why you would not support mandatory gun safety classes and or tests prior to the purchase of a gun.
We are after all trying to protect the lives of lawful would be gun purchasers.
Given your insistence that both armament and user be well regulated. I don't understand why you keep confusing back ground checks with bans, nor why you would not support mandatory gun safety classes and or tests prior to the purchase of a gun.
We are after all trying to protect the lives of lawful would be gun purchasers.
46
@44 Oh no! A typo in a comment thread! Ignore everything I've ever written! (Asshole.)
I'll just take the general testiness of the pro-gun-suicide folks in this thread as evidence that I've struck a nerve.
I'll just take the general testiness of the pro-gun-suicide folks in this thread as evidence that I've struck a nerve.
47
Oh, boy. Well, I guess I'm not surprised (anymore) at the deep personal offense gun, er.... fans take to the slightest suggestion of gun control. Just background checks for private sales, that's all. A little something to check on the invisible purchase of a small, easy item that can kill at the pull of a trigger. And a little bump to make it a little bit harder for depressed cases averse to jumping, drowning, self mutilation, and strangulation from offing themselves. Yes, there really are people who, had they not had a gun available during their darkest days, would still be around today. Because guns make the death decision really easy, relatively speaking.
So what's wrong with making gun ownership as difficult and regulated as car ownership, at least? No one's talking about taking away your guns. But propose the slightest screening, the option to trade your gun for a gift card, and the gun people get riled up. It's almost pathological.
So what's wrong with making gun ownership as difficult and regulated as car ownership, at least? No one's talking about taking away your guns. But propose the slightest screening, the option to trade your gun for a gift card, and the gun people get riled up. It's almost pathological.
48
@46
"I'll just take the general testiness of the pro-gun-suicide folks in this thread as evidence that I've struck a nerve."
Take it however you want to.
"If there's one thing both Republicans and Democrats can agree on in Olympia, it's suicide: Both parties are for it!"
So a bill that proposes universal background checks fails in this state and YOU go on a rant about how anyone who disagrees with you is pro-suicide.
But the problem couldn't be your characterization of people who disagree with you, could it?
"I'll just take the general testiness of the pro-gun-suicide folks in this thread as evidence that I've struck a nerve."
Take it however you want to.
"If there's one thing both Republicans and Democrats can agree on in Olympia, it's suicide: Both parties are for it!"
So a bill that proposes universal background checks fails in this state and YOU go on a rant about how anyone who disagrees with you is pro-suicide.
But the problem couldn't be your characterization of people who disagree with you, could it?
49
Goldy reminds me of the Al Gore cameos in '30 Rock'.
"A whale's in trouble..I must go!"
Only for him it's, "A white child has been shot...I must exploit it!"
"A whale's in trouble..I must go!"
Only for him it's, "A white child has been shot...I must exploit it!"
50
@48 but according to your reading of the second amendment as you explained it to me, back ground checks and safety lessons are nothing more then a step towards fulfilling it.
After all as you explained, both one's armament and one's militia must be well regulated. Or am I misunderstanding "functioning as expected".
Now I'm confused please help me to regain my balance my unbalanced friend.
After all as you explained, both one's armament and one's militia must be well regulated. Or am I misunderstanding "functioning as expected".
Now I'm confused please help me to regain my balance my unbalanced friend.
51
@46
It isn't something I usually do but I feel that as a "journalist" you should be held to a higher standard than us plebes.
As for striking a nerve, well, I have been working directly with suicidal patients on a daily basis for the last decade. In that time I have seen people bite through their radial arteries, hang themselves with bedsheets, be in various states of overdose with prescription/non-perscription drugs as well as household chemicals. I have personally placed untold combative individuals in restraints in order to prevent injury to themselves and others.
Where as you, David Goldstein, have taken up the anti-suicide torch only because it benefits your personal anti-civil rights agenda. Looks like you are full of shit, but what's new?
The fact of the matter is, you lost.
I wonder if it takes you back to when your father use to say, "David you are always going to be a loser."?
It isn't something I usually do but I feel that as a "journalist" you should be held to a higher standard than us plebes.
As for striking a nerve, well, I have been working directly with suicidal patients on a daily basis for the last decade. In that time I have seen people bite through their radial arteries, hang themselves with bedsheets, be in various states of overdose with prescription/non-perscription drugs as well as household chemicals. I have personally placed untold combative individuals in restraints in order to prevent injury to themselves and others.
Where as you, David Goldstein, have taken up the anti-suicide torch only because it benefits your personal anti-civil rights agenda. Looks like you are full of shit, but what's new?
The fact of the matter is, you lost.
I wonder if it takes you back to when your father use to say, "David you are always going to be a loser."?
52
"I know suicide better then you know suicide, nah nah na boo boo you can't catch me." That's the best you can do Cascading pig boy? Really?
*yawn* Lame, try again.
*yawn* Lame, try again.
53
If I were to propose a government background check and license (all fees paid for by you, of course) to buy a computer and access the internet, you'd all be frothing at the mouth. Why? Because, you'd say, you have a first amendment right that can't be infringed by the government in that way.
Yet those same people who would scream the loudest are the most vocal proponents of infringing on people's second amendment rights.
A right is a right. It's not there to tell you what you can or can't do — it's there to tell the government what they can and can't do.
Yet those same people who would scream the loudest are the most vocal proponents of infringing on people's second amendment rights.
A right is a right. It's not there to tell you what you can or can't do — it's there to tell the government what they can and can't do.
54
@ 41, given that your disbelief flies in the face of studies on the topic and the experience of suicide prevention professionals, I'll just take this as your final admission of your total fanaticism. That means we can dismiss everything you write on the topic.
@ 53, screw that. YOU pay for your background check. Your right to own a gun doesn't include the right to a subsidy out of my pocket. And supposing a background check on the freedom to access information is simply too nonsensical to be taken seriously. The fact that both are protected rights doesn't mean that any old comparison between lawful (and constitutional) restrictions on the two are valid.
@ 53, screw that. YOU pay for your background check. Your right to own a gun doesn't include the right to a subsidy out of my pocket. And supposing a background check on the freedom to access information is simply too nonsensical to be taken seriously. The fact that both are protected rights doesn't mean that any old comparison between lawful (and constitutional) restrictions on the two are valid.
55
Wow, Bacon works with suicide patients? Can yelling "Jump" as you're speeding along Aurora be considered "working with"?
56
@ 53, I think I misread your statement as something about how taxpayers should keep paying for background checks, as they do here in Colorado. Sorry about that. (BUT... I do believe gun purchasers should foot that bill.)
@ 55, he's an orderly or something, not a suicide counselor or some other person whose job would require sympathy for the people, or give them insight. His reckless conflation of one type of suicidal behavior with the very different type that Goldy brought up demonstrates that he actually knows nothing about impulsive suicidal behavior at all.
@ 55, he's an orderly or something, not a suicide counselor or some other person whose job would require sympathy for the people, or give them insight. His reckless conflation of one type of suicidal behavior with the very different type that Goldy brought up demonstrates that he actually knows nothing about impulsive suicidal behavior at all.
57
You did misread that statement, but that's OK — I also think it's an inappropriate tax on the exercise of a constitutional right.
58
@5280: show us where the first amendment notes free speech must also be 'well-regulated'.
We'll wait...
Done? Good. Punch yourself in the face now.
We'll wait...
Done? Good. Punch yourself in the face now.
59
Ah. Another moron who doesn't understand what "well-regulated" means (despite it being explained here a hundred times). If that's how poor your reading comprehension is, it's no wonder things don't make sense to you.
60
Sorry, 5280, sweet-talking gets you nothing with me. Your contributions to Slog, as many others have noted too, are useless.
61
what a bunch of sophistry from our resident gun huggers. 10 comments from unbrainwashed on this thread alone. he's upping the ante, f.u. & c.b. step up your game.
where will the HARM be in requiring background checks in all private firearm sales? inconvenience? reduced profit?
where will the HARM be in requiring background checks in all private firearm sales? inconvenience? reduced profit?
62
@54
"given that your disbelief flies in the face of studies on the topic ..."
All you have to do is show the data that Mother Jones was working from.
Can you do that?
No. You cannot.
Meanwhile, other nations have statistics that contradict Mother Jones' claims.
Why is that?
And, finally, Walmart.
www.walmart.com/cp/Guns-Rifles-Ammunitio…
If what you claim is true was actually true then Walmart should figure heavily in the "suicide by gun" statistics.
But the focus seems to be on gun shows. Which are usually held on the weekends.
So there should be a very visible change in the source of guns for gun suicides, if what you claim is true is true, based upon the day of the week adjust for each state's waiting period.
And yet none of the statistics seem to show that.
"given that your disbelief flies in the face of studies on the topic ..."
All you have to do is show the data that Mother Jones was working from.
Can you do that?
No. You cannot.
Meanwhile, other nations have statistics that contradict Mother Jones' claims.
Why is that?
And, finally, Walmart.
www.walmart.com/cp/Guns-Rifles-Ammunitio…
If what you claim is true was actually true then Walmart should figure heavily in the "suicide by gun" statistics.
But the focus seems to be on gun shows. Which are usually held on the weekends.
So there should be a very visible change in the source of guns for gun suicides, if what you claim is true is true, based upon the day of the week adjust for each state's waiting period.
And yet none of the statistics seem to show that.
64
@63
"what the fuck are you talking about?"
Your claims of "studies" and suicide.
Since you haven't presented any "studies" (only one link to one story that was not a study) I was going with the Mother Jones reference that was part of Goldy's link that started this thread.
Is that too complicated for you?
Meanwhile, here are some statistics for you.
https://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseactio…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas 2,891 25,145,561 11.5 41
California 3,913 37,253,956 10.5 44
Well that kind of contradicts everything you've been claiming.
Texas has no waiting period and yet it is only ranked 41 compared to California's 44.
And California has a waiting period for every gun, including shotguns. Which can be purchased at Walmart.
http://www.walmart.com/browse/hunting/gu…
"what the fuck are you talking about?"
Your claims of "studies" and suicide.
Since you haven't presented any "studies" (only one link to one story that was not a study) I was going with the Mother Jones reference that was part of Goldy's link that started this thread.
Is that too complicated for you?
Meanwhile, here are some statistics for you.
https://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseactio…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas 2,891 25,145,561 11.5 41
California 3,913 37,253,956 10.5 44
Well that kind of contradicts everything you've been claiming.
Texas has no waiting period and yet it is only ranked 41 compared to California's 44.
And California has a waiting period for every gun, including shotguns. Which can be purchased at Walmart.
http://www.walmart.com/browse/hunting/gu…
65
@ 64, there is substantial information within that article. If you're right and I'm wrong, you'll be able to demonstrate either how that information is wrong, or how it is not germane to the discussion.
If you're just a fanatic, you'll close your eyes and not address it.
If you do not address it, then I'll take it as a tacit admission that you're a fanatic.
If you're just a fanatic, you'll close your eyes and not address it.
If you do not address it, then I'll take it as a tacit admission that you're a fanatic.
66
Goldy, how exactly does HB 1588, a bill for Universal Background Checks (not waiting periods) have anything to do with suicide? Despite the MJ article, which appears to provide no references to the data used, how exactly would a background check reduce the number "impulse" buyers?
17 states require a background check on private purchases of handguns, 11 states require a background check on all firearms. Out of those 17 states, 11 also have a waiting period of some sort.
Incidentally, Oregon requires a background check on private handgun sales, but no waiting period - how's their suicide rate? In 2010 (only data I have handy - you can look up other years), Oregon's suicide rate, not including 'assisted' deaths (Oregon's DWDA) was even higher than Washington's:
http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/news/2010news/…
17 states require a background check on private purchases of handguns, 11 states require a background check on all firearms. Out of those 17 states, 11 also have a waiting period of some sort.
Incidentally, Oregon requires a background check on private handgun sales, but no waiting period - how's their suicide rate? In 2010 (only data I have handy - you can look up other years), Oregon's suicide rate, not including 'assisted' deaths (Oregon's DWDA) was even higher than Washington's:
http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/news/2010news/…
67
@65
"there is substantial information within that article."
No, there is not.
There are claims that refer to other items but there is nothing in that article that can be verified.
Meanwhile, I have provided a direct link to statistics and I have directly quoted them.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
"If you do not address it, then I'll take it as a tacit admission that you're a fanatic."
What was that?
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comme…
"Fuck you for resisting my righteous judgment of your disingenuous bullshit."
I've presented real statistics that contradict your claims and you're the one defending a guy who claimed that the Democrats and Republicans in Olympia are pro-suicide.
I don't think I have to worry about your opinion.
"there is substantial information within that article."
No, there is not.
There are claims that refer to other items but there is nothing in that article that can be verified.
Meanwhile, I have provided a direct link to statistics and I have directly quoted them.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
"If you do not address it, then I'll take it as a tacit admission that you're a fanatic."
What was that?
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comme…
"Fuck you for resisting my righteous judgment of your disingenuous bullshit."
I've presented real statistics that contradict your claims and you're the one defending a guy who claimed that the Democrats and Republicans in Olympia are pro-suicide.
I don't think I have to worry about your opinion.
68
@ 67, yes, you can verify it. You just have to do a little thing called "research." Probably the old fashioned kind, at the library.
But you shouldn't need to go so far. Studies about the impulsivity of suicide abound online. You just have to be willing to do a little digging.
Anyway, your "real statistics" address a point brought up by others, not by me. None of them are concerned with the nature of suicide, or the fact that removing easy means to commit suicide saves people from their impulses. Your fanaticism seems to be warping your sense of who said what.
But you shouldn't need to go so far. Studies about the impulsivity of suicide abound online. You just have to be willing to do a little digging.
Anyway, your "real statistics" address a point brought up by others, not by me. None of them are concerned with the nature of suicide, or the fact that removing easy means to commit suicide saves people from their impulses. Your fanaticism seems to be warping your sense of who said what.
69
@68
"yes, you can verify it. You just have to do a little thing called 'research.' Probably the old fashioned kind, at the library."
So when you said that you did have supporting studies for your claims what you meant is that the LIBRARY has supporting studies, maybe. If someone can find them there.
Meanwhile, I can post a link and a direct quote showing that you're wrong.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
"Anyway, your 'real statistics' address a point brought up by others, not by me."
No, they address your claims.
You had claimed that suicide was "impulsive" and then you re-defined "impulsive" to include going out, getting cash, driving to a gun show, buying a gun and ammo and then "impulsively" committing suicide.
California has a waiting period for guns, Texas does not.
California ranks 44 for suicide, Texas ranks 41.
So the real statistics show that your re-defining of "impulsive" is incorrect.
Otherwise the statistics for Texas (no waiting period) would be much higher than for California (10 day waiting period).
"None of them are concerned with the nature of suicide, or the fact that removing easy means to commit suicide saves people from their impulses."
Again, you are re-defining "easy" and the statistics show that you are wrong.
California, 44th with a 10 day waiting period.
Texas, 41st with no waiting period.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comme…
"Fuck you for resisting my righteous judgment of your disingenuous bullshit."
More...
"yes, you can verify it. You just have to do a little thing called 'research.' Probably the old fashioned kind, at the library."
So when you said that you did have supporting studies for your claims what you meant is that the LIBRARY has supporting studies, maybe. If someone can find them there.
Meanwhile, I can post a link and a direct quote showing that you're wrong.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
"Anyway, your 'real statistics' address a point brought up by others, not by me."
No, they address your claims.
You had claimed that suicide was "impulsive" and then you re-defined "impulsive" to include going out, getting cash, driving to a gun show, buying a gun and ammo and then "impulsively" committing suicide.
California has a waiting period for guns, Texas does not.
California ranks 44 for suicide, Texas ranks 41.
So the real statistics show that your re-defining of "impulsive" is incorrect.
Otherwise the statistics for Texas (no waiting period) would be much higher than for California (10 day waiting period).
"None of them are concerned with the nature of suicide, or the fact that removing easy means to commit suicide saves people from their impulses."
Again, you are re-defining "easy" and the statistics show that you are wrong.
California, 44th with a 10 day waiting period.
Texas, 41st with no waiting period.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comme…
"Fuck you for resisting my righteous judgment of your disingenuous bullshit."
71
@70
"I'm not citing any numbers."
And I have been pointing that out, repeatedly, in this thread.
You do not have any supporting material.
You can claim that there is some in the library or that there is some in the story you linked to but the fact is that YOU have been making baseless claims that are easily debunked by real statistics.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
Yet you keep claiming that "easy" access means more suicides.
But the real facts contradict your claims.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comme…
"Fuck you for resisting my righteous judgment of your disingenuous bullshit."
"I'm not citing any numbers."
And I have been pointing that out, repeatedly, in this thread.
You do not have any supporting material.
You can claim that there is some in the library or that there is some in the story you linked to but the fact is that YOU have been making baseless claims that are easily debunked by real statistics.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
Yet you keep claiming that "easy" access means more suicides.
But the real facts contradict your claims.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comme…
"Fuck you for resisting my righteous judgment of your disingenuous bullshit."
72
Interesting - I don't have access to PubMed but the abstract of this CDC study (that seems to get referenced a lot around this topic)...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11924…
...defines "impulsive" as being " if the respondent reported spending less than 5 minutes between the decision to attempt suicide and the actual attempt."
I retract my earlier statement - 5 minutes is more than enough time to find and contact a private seller, meet him or her, examine the gun, transact, and then do the deed. A background check program would completely fix this issue.
On to a referendum...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11924…
...defines "impulsive" as being " if the respondent reported spending less than 5 minutes between the decision to attempt suicide and the actual attempt."
I retract my earlier statement - 5 minutes is more than enough time to find and contact a private seller, meet him or her, examine the gun, transact, and then do the deed. A background check program would completely fix this issue.
On to a referendum...
73
Okay, to go back to something written about impulsive suicides.
Matt from Denver wants to use the background check not for its stated purpose, but for the delay they would impose on a gun purchase (post #34). This is typical of the gun control lobby, which says one thing while having an undisclosed motive. And then the Matts and Goldys wonder why people who otherwise are sympathetic to gun control might wind up going the other way, concluding that the gun control lobby can't be trusted.
As for Goldy, I repeat that he's the worst kind of liar and opportunist. David Goldstein doesn't give a flying fuck about suicide. He is hitchhiking on that issue solely to advance a political cause. And he's willing to tell any lie he thinks he can get away with to do it.
Goldstein, you're scum.
Matt from Denver wants to use the background check not for its stated purpose, but for the delay they would impose on a gun purchase (post #34). This is typical of the gun control lobby, which says one thing while having an undisclosed motive. And then the Matts and Goldys wonder why people who otherwise are sympathetic to gun control might wind up going the other way, concluding that the gun control lobby can't be trusted.
As for Goldy, I repeat that he's the worst kind of liar and opportunist. David Goldstein doesn't give a flying fuck about suicide. He is hitchhiking on that issue solely to advance a political cause. And he's willing to tell any lie he thinks he can get away with to do it.
Goldstein, you're scum.
74
#61, until quite recently I agreed with you. But I changed my mind for reasons I've already given. To you I ask: Exactly what is entailed by a "background check?" Be specific.
75
This thread is completely off the hook. After 20 or so comments, I had to go make popcorn for the finish.
76
Not that the gun control people care about logic -- surely not Goldy, the opportunistic, lying, power-hungry, hypocritical, scumbag zealot that he is -- but what the hell, I'll make the following point anyway.
We don't have any evidence that, despite Matt from Denver's hope expressed in post #34, background checks would slow down the gun buying process. There's a reason they call them "instant" background checks, Matt. Oh wait, he wants to corrupt that part of it, too.
Beyond that, we don't have any evidence of "impulse suicide" of the sort that Goldy (the opportunistic, lying, power-hungry, hypocritical, scumbag zealot that he is) claims the WA background check would've addressed: the idea that someone who's suicidal rushes out and buys a gun in a private sale and then kills himself. All logic is against that scenario, given that private sales take longer to arrange than dealer sales.
"Impulse suicides" by gun, by any logic, would take place among people who already own a gun. They have been suicidal for a long time; something triggers them to do it now, so they go to the closet or dresser drawer, get the gun and blow their head off.
Background checks on private sales would do nothing about that kind of suicide. Goldy knows it, but being the lying, truth-fearing motherfucker he is, Goldy's not going to say so. Not exactly a surprise about Goldy, but still worthy of mention.
We don't have any evidence that, despite Matt from Denver's hope expressed in post #34, background checks would slow down the gun buying process. There's a reason they call them "instant" background checks, Matt. Oh wait, he wants to corrupt that part of it, too.
Beyond that, we don't have any evidence of "impulse suicide" of the sort that Goldy (the opportunistic, lying, power-hungry, hypocritical, scumbag zealot that he is) claims the WA background check would've addressed: the idea that someone who's suicidal rushes out and buys a gun in a private sale and then kills himself. All logic is against that scenario, given that private sales take longer to arrange than dealer sales.
"Impulse suicides" by gun, by any logic, would take place among people who already own a gun. They have been suicidal for a long time; something triggers them to do it now, so they go to the closet or dresser drawer, get the gun and blow their head off.
Background checks on private sales would do nothing about that kind of suicide. Goldy knows it, but being the lying, truth-fearing motherfucker he is, Goldy's not going to say so. Not exactly a surprise about Goldy, but still worthy of mention.
77
And of course, as soon as his betters demolish him in the comment section, what does Goldy do? Calls them "professional trolls," and accuses them of being paid. No, Goldy, I'm not paid. I do it for the fun of putting your lying head on the end of a pike and waving it around for everyone to see.
78
Poor Unbrainwashed can't get his little head around that availability of guns favoring suicide on an impulse AND many variables affecting suicide rate differently in other nations aren't mutually exclusive propositions. Sob, what a sad story.
79
Poor anon1256 can't get his little liberal head around that suicide prevention has nothing whatsoever to do with background checks for private sales, but rather is an attempt to inject tragedy and emotion into what ought to be a question decided by logic.
80
@61
Here's the 'HARM' in banning private sales of firearms (which is what a UBC is if you have to transfer through a dealer).
There is no way to tell if a gun was "legally" sold or not. If I sell someone a gun without a background check and they are caught committing a crime with it, how can you know the gun came from me?
You can't. Not without universal gun registration. There's the harm.
By requiring law abiding citizens to submit to UBCs, you now have a database of gun purchasers and, presto, you're already halfway to gun registration.
Last time a checked, nobody can tell me how UBCs will compel a criminal to legally buy a gun or how a database of lawful gun owners will reduce gun crime.
In order to have confiscation, you must first have registration and gun owners don't trust the gun control zealots and their pipe dream of a gun-free utopia.
Here's the 'HARM' in banning private sales of firearms (which is what a UBC is if you have to transfer through a dealer).
There is no way to tell if a gun was "legally" sold or not. If I sell someone a gun without a background check and they are caught committing a crime with it, how can you know the gun came from me?
You can't. Not without universal gun registration. There's the harm.
By requiring law abiding citizens to submit to UBCs, you now have a database of gun purchasers and, presto, you're already halfway to gun registration.
Last time a checked, nobody can tell me how UBCs will compel a criminal to legally buy a gun or how a database of lawful gun owners will reduce gun crime.
In order to have confiscation, you must first have registration and gun owners don't trust the gun control zealots and their pipe dream of a gun-free utopia.
81
Just set up soundproof suicide booths every 1/4 mile or so with a hole and forward headrest like at the eye doctors. Once you lean your head into the rest a 12ga slug discharges. The booth then seals and the incinerator fires. The suicidal get 100% dead and no drama. No land is wasted with a burial plot. So beautiful.
82
@ 71, LOL. You've been answering numbers I haven't posted.
@ 76, that's why I support waiting periods as well. And you should ... wait for it... READ the article I posted. It tells you exactly how impulse suicides happen. You'll see that people will unquestionably be saved by impediments. No, not the people who already own guns. But hell, sometimes they are saved because the gun is in one room and the ammo is in another.
Get educated. You seem to actually have a brain, which I can't say for f.u.
@ 76, that's why I support waiting periods as well. And you should ... wait for it... READ the article I posted. It tells you exactly how impulse suicides happen. You'll see that people will unquestionably be saved by impediments. No, not the people who already own guns. But hell, sometimes they are saved because the gun is in one room and the ammo is in another.
Get educated. You seem to actually have a brain, which I can't say for f.u.
83
@82
"LOL. You've been answering numbers I haven't posted."
Yes, I've been providing statistics while you've been attempting to re-define "impulsive" and "impetuous" and "easy".
Again, if you were correct then Texas would have a lot more suicides than California.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
Yet you keep claiming that "easy" access means more suicides.
But the real facts contradict your claims.
I can post links and cite specifics.
"LOL. You've been answering numbers I haven't posted."
Yes, I've been providing statistics while you've been attempting to re-define "impulsive" and "impetuous" and "easy".
Again, if you were correct then Texas would have a lot more suicides than California.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
Yet you keep claiming that "easy" access means more suicides.
But the real facts contradict your claims.
I can post links and cite specifics.
84
#82, you supercilious, superior-acting piece of shit, not to mention disingenuous liar, you stated that you support background checks not because they'll screen out suicidal individuals -- you admitted they won't do that -- but because they'll take more time. You ignored the "instant" part of background checks, and blithely discard the trust inherent in the so-called "conversation about guns" that you lying jerkoffs said you wanted after Connecticut.
Your "conversation" consists of lies, half-truths, and misrepresentations, and the conflating of unrelated issues to advance a goal that you are afraid to disclose but is apparent to all. And then you sit there and pretend to wonder why you can't be trusted by the people you're trying to "persuade," and why honest people who once were on your side take a look at you and vomit.
So fuck you, and fuck Goldy. Put your gun control measures on the ballot, and just watch the large majority of voters here tell you to fuck off and go away. It happened in 1997 with I-676, and at that time it puzzled me greatly. But after really looking closely at the gun control lobby that I used to strongly support, I now understand why. Your "conversation" is with your own zealot crowd. It persuades no one, and repels many, and not just in the other zealot crowd.
Your "conversation" consists of lies, half-truths, and misrepresentations, and the conflating of unrelated issues to advance a goal that you are afraid to disclose but is apparent to all. And then you sit there and pretend to wonder why you can't be trusted by the people you're trying to "persuade," and why honest people who once were on your side take a look at you and vomit.
So fuck you, and fuck Goldy. Put your gun control measures on the ballot, and just watch the large majority of voters here tell you to fuck off and go away. It happened in 1997 with I-676, and at that time it puzzled me greatly. But after really looking closely at the gun control lobby that I used to strongly support, I now understand why. Your "conversation" is with your own zealot crowd. It persuades no one, and repels many, and not just in the other zealot crowd.
85
@ 84, no, I supposed that they would. I have no idea if they would, and since they'd probably violate privacy, maybe they wouldn't at all.
I'm mostly thinking out loud here.
Anyway, though, apparently you are a slave to your emotions, which makes you unfit to discuss the topic. That's too bad. I hope you get that under control.
I'm mostly thinking out loud here.
Anyway, though, apparently you are a slave to your emotions, which makes you unfit to discuss the topic. That's too bad. I hope you get that under control.
86
@85
"no, I supposed that they would. I have no idea if they would, and since they'd probably violate privacy, maybe they wouldn't at all."
And yet you posted 15 times in this thread.
That's kind of a lot for someone who claims to be "thinking out loud".
Particularly when your "thinking" consists of repeating your previous claims.
Meanwhile,
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
Yet you keep claiming that "easy" access means more suicides.
But the real facts contradict your claims.
"no, I supposed that they would. I have no idea if they would, and since they'd probably violate privacy, maybe they wouldn't at all."
And yet you posted 15 times in this thread.
That's kind of a lot for someone who claims to be "thinking out loud".
Particularly when your "thinking" consists of repeating your previous claims.
Meanwhile,
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
Yet you keep claiming that "easy" access means more suicides.
But the real facts contradict your claims.
87
#85, you and Goldy are habitual liars. You can't stop. When caught in your lies, you tell more of them. When that doesn't work, you smear the person who caught you. When that doesn't work, you declare your superiority and stalk off. Fine, but guess what? You and Goldy lost on this one. And if your friends file an initiative, they'll get their asses handed to them on a platter just like in 1997.
88
@ 86, I wonder if you'll start quoting "Unbrainwashed" as proof of... whatever it is when you quote myself or someone else.
@ 87, it's one thing to say I'm lying, but another to point out the lie. Can you do that? No.
@ 87, it's one thing to say I'm lying, but another to point out the lie. Can you do that? No.
89
@88
"I wonder if you'll start quoting 'Unbrainwashed' as proof of... whatever it is when you quote myself or someone else."
Do you mean like this where I link to and quote your less rational statements?
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comme…
"Fuck you for resisting my righteous judgment of your disingenuous bullshit."
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
"motherfucker"
"shit stain"
"dog's anus"
So that's 16 of your posts in this thread where you "supposed that they would".
And despite all the facts presented, you have not changed your statements.
I guess that's all part of your "righteous judgment".
"I wonder if you'll start quoting 'Unbrainwashed' as proof of... whatever it is when you quote myself or someone else."
Do you mean like this where I link to and quote your less rational statements?
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Comme…
"Fuck you for resisting my righteous judgment of your disingenuous bullshit."
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
"motherfucker"
"shit stain"
"dog's anus"
So that's 16 of your posts in this thread where you "supposed that they would".
And despite all the facts presented, you have not changed your statements.
I guess that's all part of your "righteous judgment".
90
#88, I've repeatedly noted your lies, and your response is to make up new ones. It's what wingnuts (of the right or the left) commonly do in our increasingly fact-free society.
91
Hmmm. F.u. is now posting in close proximity with brainwashed. I think I've identified a new sock puppet. Interesting.
@ 90, quote it. It won't kill you to rub it in my face, will it? Unless you don't have it.
@ 90, quote it. It won't kill you to rub it in my face, will it? Unless you don't have it.
92
#91, if you didn't read it the first couple times, there's no reason to think you'll read it now. You're a typical sleazebag, just like Goldy. It takes a real jerkoff to drag suicide into the discussion, especially to call those who oppose universal background checks "pro suicide." You and your friend Goldy should be ashamed of yourselves, and would be if you had any shame.
93
@ 92, let me explain it like you're five years old.
You find the lie.
You highlight the lie.
You copy the lie.
You paste it into a new comment.
You post the comment.
You laugh and laugh and laugh...
Last chance. I can hardly fail to read my own quoted words.
You find the lie.
You highlight the lie.
You copy the lie.
You paste it into a new comment.
You post the comment.
You laugh and laugh and laugh...
Last chance. I can hardly fail to read my own quoted words.
94
Man, I wish the people who are against this bill didn't seem like such crazy name-callers.
Here's the deal: If you require instant background checks on all gun sales, you effectively ban people from selling their guns to other people. Private sellers must then involve someone with the ability to perform an instant background check.
Inherent in requiring an instant background check is providing proof of your instant background check. I have never heard of a system where I can provide proof that I checked the background of my gun buyer without also maintaining some kind of official record that my gun buyer passed that background check.
My favorite part of the second amendment is this: When you're casing my house thinking of breaking in and kidnapping my children, you have no way of knowing if I have a gun or not. You have to at least consider that I may be armed. I get all of the benefit of your fear of getting shot without actually having to take on the risk of hurting my family with the gun I may or may not have.
Suicide: Maybe I'm fucked, but I'm generally against telling people what they can and can't do. Commit suicide if you want to. Do drugs if you want to. Buy prostitutes. What the fuck do I care? If you want to make your house more dangerous by owning a gun, by all means, knock yourself out. Freedom!
I would like the murder rate to go down. I would also like the death-by-car rate to go down. I wonder if we can't solve these problems without infringing on rights.
The anti-gun people (can they all fit into a lobby?) should understand how much they sound like the anti-drug people when they go on and on about bans and background checks and waiting periods. The loudest anti-gun people on this thread sound just as irrational and just as hysterical as the DARE people did in the 80s.
I am too lazy to look up any of the MANY anti-suicide bills that have died on the floor in Olympia. Since anti-suicide bills tend to be suggested by anti-abortion and anti-divorce people, I wouldn't be terribly shocked to find Goldy has actually written columns against them.
Someone with time to post twenty comments should do a Bing! search on the subject.
More...
Here's the deal: If you require instant background checks on all gun sales, you effectively ban people from selling their guns to other people. Private sellers must then involve someone with the ability to perform an instant background check.
Inherent in requiring an instant background check is providing proof of your instant background check. I have never heard of a system where I can provide proof that I checked the background of my gun buyer without also maintaining some kind of official record that my gun buyer passed that background check.
My favorite part of the second amendment is this: When you're casing my house thinking of breaking in and kidnapping my children, you have no way of knowing if I have a gun or not. You have to at least consider that I may be armed. I get all of the benefit of your fear of getting shot without actually having to take on the risk of hurting my family with the gun I may or may not have.
Suicide: Maybe I'm fucked, but I'm generally against telling people what they can and can't do. Commit suicide if you want to. Do drugs if you want to. Buy prostitutes. What the fuck do I care? If you want to make your house more dangerous by owning a gun, by all means, knock yourself out. Freedom!
I would like the murder rate to go down. I would also like the death-by-car rate to go down. I wonder if we can't solve these problems without infringing on rights.
The anti-gun people (can they all fit into a lobby?) should understand how much they sound like the anti-drug people when they go on and on about bans and background checks and waiting periods. The loudest anti-gun people on this thread sound just as irrational and just as hysterical as the DARE people did in the 80s.
I am too lazy to look up any of the MANY anti-suicide bills that have died on the floor in Olympia. Since anti-suicide bills tend to be suggested by anti-abortion and anti-divorce people, I wouldn't be terribly shocked to find Goldy has actually written columns against them.
Someone with time to post twenty comments should do a Bing! search on the subject.
95
#94, the bill is dead, so it doesn't matter. But just for the record, look at the headline of this story and then ask yourself who the "crazy name caller" is.
96
@ 95, since you couldn't quote my lie, I conclude that you are the liar, and likely the shill Goldy meant to call you @ 30.
Thanks for playing.
Thanks for playing.
97
@ 94, there are simple facts about how some people commit suicide. You can't save them all, but you can save some. I suggest you read the article I posted way back up @ 11. It's describes exactly the kind of suicidal person who can be saved just by a waiting period.
Nobody is trying to "tell them what they can and can't do." That's not an honest equivalence. Those who survive suicide attempts tell of how they instantly regret their action (say, if they jump off a bridge and survive - they speak for those who jump and do not). They talk to a woman who survived a gunshot to the head and how different her outlook has been since then. It talks about how others were dissuaded by simple inconveniences.
These are the people we can save, people who don't actually want to die. These are the people that the hardcore pro-gun people don't seem to care about, because they'd rather not have to put up with any inconvenience.
As I've said, I'm not sure how a background check can work with regards to these people - I kinda spoke too soon on this thread about that, and Goldy didn't really make a good case on that point. But waiting periods save all kinds of lives. Sometimes people are mad and go get a gun and go kill someone. If they have to wait, they cool down and realize that maybe that's not such a good idea. (I wonder how many murder-suicides are impulsive? I bet the bulk of them are.)
Nobody is trying to "tell them what they can and can't do." That's not an honest equivalence. Those who survive suicide attempts tell of how they instantly regret their action (say, if they jump off a bridge and survive - they speak for those who jump and do not). They talk to a woman who survived a gunshot to the head and how different her outlook has been since then. It talks about how others were dissuaded by simple inconveniences.
These are the people we can save, people who don't actually want to die. These are the people that the hardcore pro-gun people don't seem to care about, because they'd rather not have to put up with any inconvenience.
As I've said, I'm not sure how a background check can work with regards to these people - I kinda spoke too soon on this thread about that, and Goldy didn't really make a good case on that point. But waiting periods save all kinds of lives. Sometimes people are mad and go get a gun and go kill someone. If they have to wait, they cool down and realize that maybe that's not such a good idea. (I wonder how many murder-suicides are impulsive? I bet the bulk of them are.)
98
@97
"You can't save them all, but you can save some."
And you have yet to post any links to any laws that would save anyone from suicide.
"I suggest you read the article I posted way back up @ 11."
I suggest that you read it because it does not contain what you claim it does.
If it did then you could quote the relevant section(s) from that article.
But you don't because you cannot.
But I can link to sites and quote them easily.
https://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseactio…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
So the real facts contradict your claims.
"But waiting periods save all kinds of lives."
The facts contradict your statement.
As has been pointed out to you over and over and over again.
But you keep claiming it.
"You can't save them all, but you can save some."
And you have yet to post any links to any laws that would save anyone from suicide.
"I suggest you read the article I posted way back up @ 11."
I suggest that you read it because it does not contain what you claim it does.
If it did then you could quote the relevant section(s) from that article.
But you don't because you cannot.
But I can link to sites and quote them easily.
https://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseactio…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
So the real facts contradict your claims.
"But waiting periods save all kinds of lives."
The facts contradict your statement.
As has been pointed out to you over and over and over again.
But you keep claiming it.
103
@100
You've been going on about how gun control will prevent suicides since Feb 19, 2013.
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
"But, just to play devil's advocate, do you think waiting periods might not reduce suicide by gunshot? "
And despite all the facts that have been presented to you, you are still making that claim in dozens of posts more than 2 weeks later.
And now you're trying to be flippant about the issue.
You've been going on about how gun control will prevent suicides since Feb 19, 2013.
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
"But, just to play devil's advocate, do you think waiting periods might not reduce suicide by gunshot? "
And despite all the facts that have been presented to you, you are still making that claim in dozens of posts more than 2 weeks later.
And now you're trying to be flippant about the issue.
104
@ 101, yes. Everyone on Slog except me lives in Seattle. ROFLMAO...
@ 102, hopefully you won't be able to do that directly. You'll have to go through some exchange where background checks are done. I have no idea if that's being proposed somewhere, but you shouldn't be able to sell guns to another party as easily as you might sell a CD.
@ 103, and you haven't offered a cogent answer to the evidence. And you and your sockpuppets have an annoying need to get in the last word.
@ 102, hopefully you won't be able to do that directly. You'll have to go through some exchange where background checks are done. I have no idea if that's being proposed somewhere, but you shouldn't be able to sell guns to another party as easily as you might sell a CD.
@ 103, and you haven't offered a cogent answer to the evidence. And you and your sockpuppets have an annoying need to get in the last word.
105
Anomie; that the knowledge of society's patterns of consumption are destroying ourselves and the natural systems which give us life; that the cancer, gluttony, existential decay these patterns condemn us to sits in lazy consolation for tearing our consciousness from the world and narrowing its focus inwards; that because we cannot fulfill the desire to define ourselves meaningfully, our desire are insatiable.
These are the causes of suicide and mass shootings. Guns are incidental.
These are the causes of suicide and mass shootings. Guns are incidental.
106
@104
"and you haven't offered a cogent answer to the evidence."
You have not provided any evidence.
You have posted dozens of times over the past few weeks and you have not provided any evidence.
Yet you claim that it is everyone else who has not provided evidence.
But I can provide evidence.
Here it is, again.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
So the real facts contradict your claims.
"and you haven't offered a cogent answer to the evidence."
You have not provided any evidence.
You have posted dozens of times over the past few weeks and you have not provided any evidence.
Yet you claim that it is everyone else who has not provided evidence.
But I can provide evidence.
Here it is, again.
http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?fuseaction…
State - Number of Suicides - Population - Rate - Rank
Texas - 2,891 - 25,145,561 - 11.5 - 41
California - 3,913 - 37,253,956 - 10.5 - 44
It doesn't get much easier to get a gun than in Texas (no waiting period).
It doesn't get much harder to get a gun than in California (10 day waiting period).
So the real facts contradict your claims.
108
@ 107 - See: pharmaceutical industry since the early 1970s. Also check out the Lancet "2010 Global Burden of Disease", and look at days lost to disability for mental illness since the early 1970s. We're stuffed with crank and anti-depressants to keep us from killing ourselves and others.
109
@108 -- Anti-depressants are our new epiphanies. They help us cope when we come to understand there is no god and we're on our own.
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