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News & ArtsSaturday, March 9, 2013
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Double Bi Standard
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 10:34 AM
Originally published April 27, 2006:
My boyfriend and I have been together for a little over four years. I love him more than I thought possible.
One of the things that makes us so compatible is our similar take on jealousy and fidelity. I'm a bi woman, he's a straight man. I don't mind who he sleeps with, he doesn't mind who I sleep with. (Provided, of course, that we use proper protection at all times.) Not an issue, right?
Well, over the last four years I've been pretty busy with my career, and it hasn't left me a lot of time to go looking outside my relationship. He's had more free time on his hands, and has had some brief affairs with other women. For a little while, we were both seeing the same woman. We still have sex three or four times a week, and it's good and satisfying and enthusiastic.
But here's the rub.
A few weeks ago, I met a guy that I think is amazingly shiny—and I slept with him. My boyfriend encouraged me to enjoy myself, so I did. But now it's eating at him. He makes little needling comments about my leaving him for the new lover. I've tried to reassure him that I love him and I want to share my life with him, but it hasn't seemed to help.
At first, I felt bad for sleeping with someone else, since it obviously bothered him so much, but the longer this goes on, the more irked I'm getting. The new lover isn't interested in a relationship with me, and I'm not interested in a relationship with him. But I've caught nothing but hell over this, and I'm getting a little fed up. We've always been very open and honest with each other—at least I have, anyway. Should I ask him to tell me what, exactly, is bothering him about this whole situation? Or should I just bite my tongue and not sleep with other men?
Irked By Double Standard
My response after the jump...
You know as well as I do what's bothering your boyfriend, IBDS. He doesn't believe that you, the bisexual woman he loves, would leave him for another woman. And he's probably right about that. Very few bisexual women wind up "sharing their lives" with other women; like most bisexuals, male and female, you are in—or were in—a stable, loving, committed, opposite-sex relationship. And, hey, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm a fan of stable, loving, committed, opposite-sex relationships. Really. And I no longer believe that most bisexuals wind up in them because you're all liars and cheats, or that you're all dying to access societal perks reserved for heterosexuals, or that you're all cowards and it's hard out here for a homo. I think most bisexuals wind up in heterosexual relationships because most bisexuals are mostly hetero. You may be physically attracted to both sexes, but most of you can only fall in love with an opposite-sex partner.
Yes, yes—there are some bi guys out there with guys and bi girls with girls. But they are the exceptions to the rule and there's nothing bi-phobic about calling attention to their rarity. And before angry bisexuals start pounding away at their keyboards, consider this: My current position on bisexuals winding up with opposite-sex partners (you're mostly straight) is a hell of a lot more charitable than my previous position (you're cowards, liars, cheats, etc.).
Back to your boyfriend, IBDS: Since he consciously or subconsciously believes that you're only attracted to women physically, not emotionally, your same-sex affairs don't threaten him. But he's living proof that you can fall in love with men, so your recent opposite-sex affair has left him feeling insecure.
So what do you do?
First, you point out that he's had affairs with other women—affairs that, theoretically at least, present the same threat to you that your affair with a man presents to him. If he wants to have an open relationship, he has to trust that you won't leave him for another man, just as you trust that he won't leave you for another woman. Second, you tell him he needs to get a grip—which he may be on his way to doing. When he needles you, IBDS, he's seeking reassurance, which you're giving. Once he's completely reassured, the needling should stop. If it doesn't stop, well, then the needling isn't about reassurance. It's about making your life so miserable that you'll think twice about having an affair with a guy again. If that's his game, then he's not emotionally mature enough to be in an open relationship.
2
@1
Do I detect annoyance with Savage?
If the answer is yes, instead of getting your hackles up over a position held by the columnist seven years ago, why not take the opportunity to ask where he stands now? Dan Savage is hardly the end-all-be-all authority on bisexuality. I'm sure he'd be first to admit that.
Savage is also right. A pretty clear majority (but obviously not all) of Bi folks end up with opposite sex long-term partners.
Is your issue with that point, or with Savage's snarky/bitchy attitude from seven years ago?
Do I detect annoyance with Savage?
If the answer is yes, instead of getting your hackles up over a position held by the columnist seven years ago, why not take the opportunity to ask where he stands now? Dan Savage is hardly the end-all-be-all authority on bisexuality. I'm sure he'd be first to admit that.
Savage is also right. A pretty clear majority (but obviously not all) of Bi folks end up with opposite sex long-term partners.
Is your issue with that point, or with Savage's snarky/bitchy attitude from seven years ago?
3
I don't think bisexuals ending up in opposite-sex relationships is because they are secretly more straight than gay. I think it is just simple math.
If I were a bisexual guy, truly equally attracted to both sexes, simple math tells me that there are far more women available to date than men. 95-ish% of women are straight, and potential mates. 5-ish% of men are gay, and potential mates (plus a small percentage of either that are bi). Even if there were no social pressure or discrimination whatsoever, it would still be way easier for me to find a female mate than a male mate, strictly based on the numbers in the dating pool.
If I were a bisexual guy, truly equally attracted to both sexes, simple math tells me that there are far more women available to date than men. 95-ish% of women are straight, and potential mates. 5-ish% of men are gay, and potential mates (plus a small percentage of either that are bi). Even if there were no social pressure or discrimination whatsoever, it would still be way easier for me to find a female mate than a male mate, strictly based on the numbers in the dating pool.
5
Also in the category of simple math, since there are far more hets than gays, it makes sense that there would be a lot more "mostly hets" (Kinsey 1s and 2s) than "mostly gays" (Kinsey 4s and 5s).
8
Thanks @3 for putting it so succinctly. Love you Dan, but why you gotta make generalizations about all bisexuals? Don't see how it's relevant to the discussion at hand, which is about insecure double-standard-holding dick boyfriend.
9
This was 7 years ago...and I imagine there was plenty of keyboard pounding. Hasn't he re-addressed his "current" opinions since?
10
...just think, seven years ago! Everything was a grainy standard definition..no iPhones...twitter was just being developed... I hadn't even been forced onto facebook yet!
11
I call "projection."
I have a sneaking suspicion that boyfriend is leaning toward the other woman, and picking fights so that bi-girl will break up with him.
I have a sneaking suspicion that boyfriend is leaning toward the other woman, and picking fights so that bi-girl will break up with him.
12
What @3 said:
Dan, why are you so bad at math? You have regularly made the argument that there are many people you can round up to "the one":
now there are 9x as many opposite-sex potential partners as same-sex potential partners. If all bisexual people had no preference, what exactly do you think is the probability of finding the same-sex "almost-one" first?
If you said it should be 50/50, you need to go back and take a basic math class.
Dan, why are you so bad at math? You have regularly made the argument that there are many people you can round up to "the one":
now there are 9x as many opposite-sex potential partners as same-sex potential partners. If all bisexual people had no preference, what exactly do you think is the probability of finding the same-sex "almost-one" first?
If you said it should be 50/50, you need to go back and take a basic math class.
13
Maybe most bisexuals end up in opposite-sex relationships because the pool of their potential partners is disproportionately opposite-sex. There are more straight men than gay women, so a bi woman is more likely to end up with a straight man than with a lesbian.
Remember, that study showed that some bisexual men are more straight than gay but that others are more gay than straight.
Considering that that study came out after 2006 has got me wondering. So long as they're printing these old letters, what if Mr. Savage added an addendum saying what if anything he'd do differently if he got the letter today. There have been studies on bisexuals and on opposite-sex friendships and all sorts of political developments that might change Mr. Savage's perspective (or the writers' situations). Even an "I was right then and I'm right now, HEAEAHAHHAAHAHAA!" would be fun.
Remember, that study showed that some bisexual men are more straight than gay but that others are more gay than straight.
Considering that that study came out after 2006 has got me wondering. So long as they're printing these old letters, what if Mr. Savage added an addendum saying what if anything he'd do differently if he got the letter today. There have been studies on bisexuals and on opposite-sex friendships and all sorts of political developments that might change Mr. Savage's perspective (or the writers' situations). Even an "I was right then and I'm right now, HEAEAHAHHAAHAHAA!" would be fun.
14
@3 word.
Hope Dan has evolved, realizing it's not just math but also that gay men didn't use to be interested in LTRs as much.
First, most people are straight. So, if you're bi, most potential partners will be other sex -- especially in everyday situations.
Second, today young gay men are interested marrying, but it didn't used to be that way.
Gay youtubers like Will & RJ or your favorite gay marines are looking at LTRs in their early to mid 20s, just like many straight couples. But a generation ago, like Dan's age or even Davey Wavey's age, to be gay was to be firmly single throughout your 20s.
So while some bi guys are happily single in their 20s, if you were a bi guy in your 20s looking for a LTR you'd have slim pickings among gay men of your own age. Today it's different and I think you'll see some changes, although the math thing will always be there.
Hope Dan has evolved, realizing it's not just math but also that gay men didn't use to be interested in LTRs as much.
First, most people are straight. So, if you're bi, most potential partners will be other sex -- especially in everyday situations.
Second, today young gay men are interested marrying, but it didn't used to be that way.
Gay youtubers like Will & RJ or your favorite gay marines are looking at LTRs in their early to mid 20s, just like many straight couples. But a generation ago, like Dan's age or even Davey Wavey's age, to be gay was to be firmly single throughout your 20s.
So while some bi guys are happily single in their 20s, if you were a bi guy in your 20s looking for a LTR you'd have slim pickings among gay men of your own age. Today it's different and I think you'll see some changes, although the math thing will always be there.
16
I am not complicated enough to be either bi or hetero. Too many variables in the bi scene and women are a total enigma to my homo brain. Plus, I really am terrible at math.
17
Well, shit. I have to go anon for this. This is per @3.
I am male, 40's, and I've had sex with a few hundred men, I suppose, depending on what counts as sex. I don't use the term "bisexual", though I did for about a year when I was 18 or so. I simply don't identify.
The sex I've had with women has been really, really good. But I don't pursue it much.
OK, here is why a guy who identifies as "bi" will not have as many female sex partners as male: because guys are sluts and because most women are conflicted about sex.
Women, I'm sorry to say that. It's not your fault. The problem is being raised in this country, where being horny makes you a bad person, somehow.
Guys, I'm not sorry I called you all sluts. It's perfectly true. I'm one, too.
When a woman sucks a dick, it's a favor she does for the man. When a man sucks a dick, it's a favor you do for him.
Finding a female partner can take weeks of hard work and investment. Finding a male partner can take almost no time at all.
Anyways, I'm not sure male bisexuality exists as an identity. I think it exists as a behavior. I think the men who exhibit bisexual behavior have all sorts of sexual identities. Most of them are probably "straight" in that they can only form long-term loving partnerships with women. But they love the cock.
I am male, 40's, and I've had sex with a few hundred men, I suppose, depending on what counts as sex. I don't use the term "bisexual", though I did for about a year when I was 18 or so. I simply don't identify.
The sex I've had with women has been really, really good. But I don't pursue it much.
OK, here is why a guy who identifies as "bi" will not have as many female sex partners as male: because guys are sluts and because most women are conflicted about sex.
Women, I'm sorry to say that. It's not your fault. The problem is being raised in this country, where being horny makes you a bad person, somehow.
Guys, I'm not sorry I called you all sluts. It's perfectly true. I'm one, too.
When a woman sucks a dick, it's a favor she does for the man. When a man sucks a dick, it's a favor you do for him.
Finding a female partner can take weeks of hard work and investment. Finding a male partner can take almost no time at all.
Anyways, I'm not sure male bisexuality exists as an identity. I think it exists as a behavior. I think the men who exhibit bisexual behavior have all sorts of sexual identities. Most of them are probably "straight" in that they can only form long-term loving partnerships with women. But they love the cock.
18
Completely with 3 on this one.
I have one thing to add. I tend not to be the pursuer in relationships, so every person I've ever dated has asked me out. In my experience, guys ask me out, women do not. I've been asked out by 2 women, many more guys. :)
I have one thing to add. I tend not to be the pursuer in relationships, so every person I've ever dated has asked me out. In my experience, guys ask me out, women do not. I've been asked out by 2 women, many more guys. :)
19
Agree with @3, and would add: I know a lot of lesbians have no interest in being with self-identified bi women. I'm not sure if the same is true of gay men, but I suspect it might be. This would further restrict bi people's options for ending up in same-sex relationships.
20
On top of the basic numbers, the fact that straight guys are much more likely to see the bisexuality thing as a plus than lesbians also skews the numbers.
24
While I agree with @3, all the people who are saying "just do the math" are effectively assuming that being bisexual always means being equally attracted to men and women.
I don't think it always works that way, even if it is true for a sizeable portion of the bi population.
So can't it be BOTH factors?
And let's be honest, while we have a reasonable (if constantly shifting) guess that gay and lesbian people are between 3 and 8% of the population, we really have no idea of what the bisexual percentage of the population is.
Everyone, even in this thread, speaks as though any given bisexual is the only one on the planet - it's always discussed in terms of finding a straight partner OR a gay partner - almost never another bi partner.
All that said, I think the percentages are probably the biggest factor, but that the Kinsey scale idea is probably in there somewhere, too.
I don't think it always works that way, even if it is true for a sizeable portion of the bi population.
So can't it be BOTH factors?
And let's be honest, while we have a reasonable (if constantly shifting) guess that gay and lesbian people are between 3 and 8% of the population, we really have no idea of what the bisexual percentage of the population is.
Everyone, even in this thread, speaks as though any given bisexual is the only one on the planet - it's always discussed in terms of finding a straight partner OR a gay partner - almost never another bi partner.
All that said, I think the percentages are probably the biggest factor, but that the Kinsey scale idea is probably in there somewhere, too.
25
@24 -- We have every reason to believe that @3's factor is true, but we have no reason to believe that Dan's hypothesis is true. @3's factor is just statistics. And it doesn't rely on the assumption that every bi person is equally attracted to both sexes; it could be that there's lots of variability.
On the other hand, we have no reason to think that bis are *more* attracted to the opposite sex; why not the other way around? For example, I'm a bi lady with a fairly strong preference for women, but I still ended up (currently) in an opposite sex relationship. Even if you're 90% gay and 10% straight, you're still more likely to end up in an opposite sex relationship, statistically.
Statistics I've seen suggest there are about twice as many bi women as lesbians and lesbians are less than 2%. The stats are against us.
On the other hand, we have no reason to think that bis are *more* attracted to the opposite sex; why not the other way around? For example, I'm a bi lady with a fairly strong preference for women, but I still ended up (currently) in an opposite sex relationship. Even if you're 90% gay and 10% straight, you're still more likely to end up in an opposite sex relationship, statistically.
Statistics I've seen suggest there are about twice as many bi women as lesbians and lesbians are less than 2%. The stats are against us.
26
The Troll usually doesn't intervene when the Perverts&Degenerates are all obsessively navel-gazing and labeling and categorizing and speculating about how many faggotty bis can fit on the head of a pin because,
well,
because it is just so sad....
But today is your lucky day.
Part 1-
"....then he's not emotionally mature enough to be in an open relationship."
haha. good one.
Actually, when folks attain emotional maturity they learn how do do monogamy. It is the most evolved form of human behavior.
Come on, people.
Aspire.
Whoring around?
Chimp behavior. One step above poo flinging. (unless your whoring includes Danny's favorite, ass licking, when it is two steps below poo flinging....)
Jealousy when your squeeze is whoring around?
Don't blame yourself.
That is Darwin.
Trying to speak some sense to you.
Urging you to take the next step in evolution.
Monogamy.
...to be continued....
well,
because it is just so sad....
But today is your lucky day.
Part 1-
"....then he's not emotionally mature enough to be in an open relationship."
haha. good one.
Actually, when folks attain emotional maturity they learn how do do monogamy. It is the most evolved form of human behavior.
Come on, people.
Aspire.
Whoring around?
Chimp behavior. One step above poo flinging. (unless your whoring includes Danny's favorite, ass licking, when it is two steps below poo flinging....)
Jealousy when your squeeze is whoring around?
Don't blame yourself.
That is Darwin.
Trying to speak some sense to you.
Urging you to take the next step in evolution.
Monogamy.
...to be continued....
28
Part 2-
"like most bisexuals, male and female, you are in—or were in—a stable, loving, committed, opposite-sex relationship. "
Why is that?
It is not because bis are "mostly hetero".
Three parts hetero and one part homo, shaken, not stirred.
Right, Danny?
haha. again, very funny.
Bis settle in stable opposite sex relationships (what used to be, before the culture deteriorated, "marriage"). Just like heteros.
Why?
Because opposite sex attraction is how humans Love.
True Love.
Magic.
And True Love doesn't cheat.
It doesn't even want to cheat.
Bonobos don't do True Love.
They do sex.
Chimps don't do True Love.
Homosexuals?
Not true love.
To his credit Danny has never even pretended that what he feels for Terry is strong enough to keep him from wanting to cheat.
From insisting on the right to cheat.
It's not Danny's fault.
It's not Terry's fault.
Blame Darwin.
"You may be physically attracted to both sexes, but most of you can only fall in love with an opposite-sex partner."
'most'?
Try 'all'.
Human True Love is a heterosexual thing.
Danny inadvertently steps in The Truth but wipes it off his feet like so much dogshit and blunders on his clueless way.
"like most bisexuals, male and female, you are in—or were in—a stable, loving, committed, opposite-sex relationship. "
Why is that?
It is not because bis are "mostly hetero".
Three parts hetero and one part homo, shaken, not stirred.
Right, Danny?
haha. again, very funny.
Bis settle in stable opposite sex relationships (what used to be, before the culture deteriorated, "marriage"). Just like heteros.
Why?
Because opposite sex attraction is how humans Love.
True Love.
Magic.
And True Love doesn't cheat.
It doesn't even want to cheat.
Bonobos don't do True Love.
They do sex.
Chimps don't do True Love.
Homosexuals?
Not true love.
To his credit Danny has never even pretended that what he feels for Terry is strong enough to keep him from wanting to cheat.
From insisting on the right to cheat.
It's not Danny's fault.
It's not Terry's fault.
Blame Darwin.
"You may be physically attracted to both sexes, but most of you can only fall in love with an opposite-sex partner."
'most'?
Try 'all'.
Human True Love is a heterosexual thing.
Danny inadvertently steps in The Truth but wipes it off his feet like so much dogshit and blunders on his clueless way.
29
Question to bisexuals - shouldn't we be differentiating between bisexual and bi-romantic people. I have dated a few self-professed bisexual women, who did occasionally have sex with women. None of them had ever been in "relationships" with women. My guess is there are quite a few bisexual people but the number of them who are truly bi-romantic i.e can be equally emotionally fulfilled by both sexes, is a much smaller subset. It's not simply the numbers game suggested by @3.
This seems to be what Savage is saying here: the boyfriend isn't threatened by his girlfriend going with girls because she, like most bisexuals, isn't bi-romantic.
This seems to be what Savage is saying here: the boyfriend isn't threatened by his girlfriend going with girls because she, like most bisexuals, isn't bi-romantic.
30
@29 good question -- bisexual is an identity term and identity is a big thing, includes sexual attractions and romantic attractions. So it can apply equally to bi-sexual and bi-romantic, and some bi people are at different points on the scale. I'm exactly 50-50 in bi romantic but way more into dudes in terms of sex (though not completely, I get subway boners for girls too). Some people are 0 on the bi-romantic side. For some people sex & romance are inseparable -- the "I'm attracted to the person not the genitals" crowd.
@26 @28 the troll is self-identifying as a troll now! Having experienced love with both sexes I can say 100% you are WRONG there is nothing diff. about same-sex true love & other-sex true love, exactly the same. People like you usually turn out to have made the "choice" to be str8 (suppressed same-sex desires and are unhappy). Are you a candidate for pope by any chance? And why so obsessed with Dan's life? Creeps like you probably keep him from posting more of those hella hot pics of him & Terry.
@26 @28 the troll is self-identifying as a troll now! Having experienced love with both sexes I can say 100% you are WRONG there is nothing diff. about same-sex true love & other-sex true love, exactly the same. People like you usually turn out to have made the "choice" to be str8 (suppressed same-sex desires and are unhappy). Are you a candidate for pope by any chance? And why so obsessed with Dan's life? Creeps like you probably keep him from posting more of those hella hot pics of him & Terry.
31
@29 since I was 1st to answer your Q., do I get some free timbits? those things just melt in your mouth...
32
Maybe focus on behavior in the situation. LW to BF: "Feel however you feel, but don't behave like a douche." ?? This is the technique I employ and it almost works, too. sometimes.
35
I'm a bisexual woman who's much more attracted to women than to men. But I still have a husband. It's not just the math, though #3 has a big part of it. It's also that straight people feel free to flirt in any and all situations, whereas most of the queer women I know don't flirt with other women except at queer events or in very casual social situations.
So, straight men will try to pick me up at work, on the bus, in the grocery store, at funerals, EVERYwhere. Queer women will try to pick me up at queer events or at parties given by people they know are queer friendly. Even if the numbers were equal -- and they're really, really not -- society just gives hets way more latitude to search for partners.
So, straight men will try to pick me up at work, on the bus, in the grocery store, at funerals, EVERYwhere. Queer women will try to pick me up at queer events or at parties given by people they know are queer friendly. Even if the numbers were equal -- and they're really, really not -- society just gives hets way more latitude to search for partners.
36
Just to play the contrarian (and ignore that the re-run is ancient, so this comment is at least as hypothetical as it is addressed to the letter writer): So, about this "guy that I think is amazingly shiny"...is it possible that your guy is feeling comparatively, well, not shiny in your eyes? Perhaps even tarnished? Have you been neglecting to keep him feeling polished?
If you get careless with how you fling around all that New Relationship Energy, "I love you and want to share my life with you" can feel an awful lot like "You're Mr. Dependable, Reliable Chump who I can count on to keep my domestic life on track while I'm off sparking with the amazingly shiny guy."
If you get careless with how you fling around all that New Relationship Energy, "I love you and want to share my life with you" can feel an awful lot like "You're Mr. Dependable, Reliable Chump who I can count on to keep my domestic life on track while I'm off sparking with the amazingly shiny guy."
37
Agree so much w/ @3, @25 @32 & others, above. I suppose I'm an unusual? bisexual, in that I've had a few serious romantic relationships w/ women (love letters & all, ugh! I was so sappy) as well as w/ men (3 women, 4 men) but I will say that w/ the women exes (& women I flirt with now) I had/have to make my interest very plain, before they'll respond. & I *have* known plenty of women who were bisexual in bed partners, but not full-on romantic partners.
Also, I've learned over time to be very upfront about the bi thing whether dating a woman or man. Lots of ladies I would have loved to have some fun with, were lesbian & 100% not into being w/ a bisexual woman. Monogamous or whatever our arrangement might have been. & hey, that's their right. I try to not be angry or defensive about it, just these days I bring it up ASAP in the flirting so it's out there & over with.
All of the above makes me realize I need to get better at math BTW. : D
Since this letter is old, I sure hope Dan's position has kept on evolving. I mean, let's just judge all bisexuals as one group w/ one set of behaviors & assumptions about causes of those behaviors. Y'know just like we used t'do about gay people.
Also, I've learned over time to be very upfront about the bi thing whether dating a woman or man. Lots of ladies I would have loved to have some fun with, were lesbian & 100% not into being w/ a bisexual woman. Monogamous or whatever our arrangement might have been. & hey, that's their right. I try to not be angry or defensive about it, just these days I bring it up ASAP in the flirting so it's out there & over with.
All of the above makes me realize I need to get better at math BTW. : D
Since this letter is old, I sure hope Dan's position has kept on evolving. I mean, let's just judge all bisexuals as one group w/ one set of behaviors & assumptions about causes of those behaviors. Y'know just like we used t'do about gay people.
38
@26 Your words are sheer poetry. They're almost enough to make me leave my husband and find a nice woman.
Have you ever considered starting your own blog? Maybe you could write a book!
Have you ever considered starting your own blog? Maybe you could write a book!
39
I believe is not just a math issue, as counted by @3. I also believe that the social perception about this is continually evolving and more people identify as Bi or tend to explore this part of their sexuality. More and more people admits to have same-sex sex and relationships but not necessarily LTRs.
Regarding the current letter, Dan is right: BF feels a guy as a threat to his position in the relationship whereas a girl is perceived more like a treat.
Regarding the current letter, Dan is right: BF feels a guy as a threat to his position in the relationship whereas a girl is perceived more like a treat.
40
@31 - 20 pack of timbits coming your way!
As I tell my wife, you always have time for Tim Horton!
As I tell my wife, you always have time for Tim Horton!
41
So for everyone who's hoping Dan's position on bisexuals has evolved a teeny bit further, how come he's bothering to repost this letter? Is he wanting an angry reaction, so he can feel martyred about it? Love Dan Savage overall, and I think he's done many marvellous activist things, but as a bi woman this sort of thing just reinforces tired old stereotypes.
And you know what?
Here's the thing -- if you want bi people to end up in same-sex relationships, then keep in mind that reinforcing the myth that bi people will always dump their same-sex partner to flee to the warm-fuzzies of heterosexuality [yup, that's sarcastic] makes it just that much harder for lesbian or gay folks to get past that stereotype.
So they post "NO BIS!!1!!1" on their dating profiles and heaven forefend you actually identify as bi, cause no way no how are they gonna want to get involved with you.
Thanks, Dan.
And you know what?
Here's the thing -- if you want bi people to end up in same-sex relationships, then keep in mind that reinforcing the myth that bi people will always dump their same-sex partner to flee to the warm-fuzzies of heterosexuality [yup, that's sarcastic] makes it just that much harder for lesbian or gay folks to get past that stereotype.
So they post "NO BIS!!1!!1" on their dating profiles and heaven forefend you actually identify as bi, cause no way no how are they gonna want to get involved with you.
Thanks, Dan.
43
38
oh dear.
that would certainly be an option...
but keep an open mind.
have you considered hooking up with a bonobo?
(for the sake of womankind)
oh dear.
that would certainly be an option...
but keep an open mind.
have you considered hooking up with a bonobo?
(for the sake of womankind)
44
@42: It means "cool" in the Firefly-verse.
@41: I'm pretty sure the tech-savvy youth selects and posts them, possibly using a random number generator. (There was an old trans one a few months back that... Dan just would not have chosen to post that particular week.)
Also, fascinating that we have to get to 36 for someone to comment on the open relationship not working aspect. I wonder if this was the first guy she slept with, or slept with twice, in the OR? Maybe bf thought he was agreeing to this hypothetical "you can sleep with whomever" but in practice it was "you can sleep with my second girlfriend" and he figured the other guys thing was just lip service?
@41: I'm pretty sure the tech-savvy youth selects and posts them, possibly using a random number generator. (There was an old trans one a few months back that... Dan just would not have chosen to post that particular week.)
Also, fascinating that we have to get to 36 for someone to comment on the open relationship not working aspect. I wonder if this was the first guy she slept with, or slept with twice, in the OR? Maybe bf thought he was agreeing to this hypothetical "you can sleep with whomever" but in practice it was "you can sleep with my second girlfriend" and he figured the other guys thing was just lip service?
45
Nothing like old letters... but seriously, thank you, @29. I have personally used the term "bi-romantic" as opposed to "bisexual" for some time now, and have always wondered why more people don't use that very convenient term.
Oh, and more women are "bi-romantic" than men. That's obvious. There aren't many of them (some women don't even know they are until they fall in love with someone of a previously un-enticing gender), but a truly bi-romantic man is a real rarity (I'm looking at you, #30).
Oh, and more women are "bi-romantic" than men. That's obvious. There aren't many of them (some women don't even know they are until they fall in love with someone of a previously un-enticing gender), but a truly bi-romantic man is a real rarity (I'm looking at you, #30).
46
I'll put it down in the main to how heavily heterocentric the world is in general, which is to a fair extent a sort of addition to what some of the women have said. My friend the opera singer, who presents as just about a Kinsey 3, meets more male potential dates because his life is almost equally balanced between F/M milieux and M/M, so that the numbers game works the other way for him. But he's exceptional in having such balance. For most people, it would be much more work than it would be worth to anyone without a major same-sex lean.
I might take a small piece form Ms Cory's point and the same from Ms Hopkins and wonder how much gender difference there might be. Granted straights get more leeway to pursue in apparently neutral milieux, but, if men perform a majority of pursuit, bi women will have a more tilted field than bi men of about the same lean. That and other considerations, such as the way that apparently outside male partners are viewed with less approval than female, suggests that it might not be equal on both sides.
There are so many possible reasons it's probably pointless to generalize. I'd be interested in how children affect the mix. There's not only dalliances becoming partnerships after accidental pregnancies result, but the factor of whether one strongly wants or doesn't want children leads one to exercise more deliberate choice regarding gender of partners.
I might take a small piece form Ms Cory's point and the same from Ms Hopkins and wonder how much gender difference there might be. Granted straights get more leeway to pursue in apparently neutral milieux, but, if men perform a majority of pursuit, bi women will have a more tilted field than bi men of about the same lean. That and other considerations, such as the way that apparently outside male partners are viewed with less approval than female, suggests that it might not be equal on both sides.
There are so many possible reasons it's probably pointless to generalize. I'd be interested in how children affect the mix. There's not only dalliances becoming partnerships after accidental pregnancies result, but the factor of whether one strongly wants or doesn't want children leads one to exercise more deliberate choice regarding gender of partners.
47
I have no problem with statements about "most bisexuals" or "very few bisexual women," Dan - all I ask is that you link to the study/studies that back these statements up... or are these just your anecdotal impressions from years of reader emails & posts? It's important to let readers know whether these are your generalizations, or based on scientific research
48
@29, @30... yes, i'd agree there is a good point in differentiating between 'sexual' and 'romantic' orientation. i've had many female lovers, and a solid handful of relationships, but only a very few males - and i tend to only get that giddy thing with females, the guys in my life are my friends. given that i find the romantic/emotional thing disturbing/dysfunctional, i live with my best friend, not with my wife. :-)
and... this means that people sometimes assume that i'm straight, or 'mostly straight', just because i have kids and there is a male in the house.
also...lesbians do have a higher tendency to be pro-monogamy, which means they find it more tricky to deal with the 'love me, love my tribe' situation. and i'm over trying to helping people with their monogamy delusions, i have kids to raise.
and... this means that people sometimes assume that i'm straight, or 'mostly straight', just because i have kids and there is a male in the house.
also...lesbians do have a higher tendency to be pro-monogamy, which means they find it more tricky to deal with the 'love me, love my tribe' situation. and i'm over trying to helping people with their monogamy delusions, i have kids to raise.
49
Honestly, I think the only reason anyone sees a distinction between bisexual and bi-romantic is that a lot of bisexuals never find someone they're romantically compatible with of the same gender, since they're usually not looking for someone specifically of their own gender. Thinking about numbers again, if out of every 100 people who want to sleep with me, I only would sleep with 30 of them, and I'd probably only date 2 or 3... and then 90% of the people who want to sleep with me are men... there are going to be very, very few women for me to have a relationship with.
50
hmmm, no. i think it is relevant. the asexual camp differentiates between a-sexual and a-romantic, and i think it's an important thing to take into account. (i'm not for a second suggesting extra 'identity labels' though!!) some people may well be bi-romantic, but i'm not. i would say i'm ambi-sexual and homo-romantic. and i know someone who is hetero-sexual but homo-romantic; not closeted or conflicted, just wired that way. i suspect it's more common than we acknowledge.
51
I dunno, I'm realizing that I'm bisexual, but not especially biromantic (I have been in love with women, but it usually builds over years of friendship, rather than hit me like a lightning strike like it does with men--although it did when I was younger). I don't know if it's just because the playing field is narrower, or what, but I definitely feel the way Dan describes, most of the time.
52
I always thought the whole bisexuals-in-opposite-sex-relationships was more of a probability thing than anything else. There are a lot more heteros than gay people (like, 90% more or something like that?), so odds are much, much more likely that someone equally interested in either would still wind up with a hetero. A bi person would have to weight their preference toward a same-sex partner in order to tip the odds.
53
I am a bisexual woman who has had long term relationships with men and women. I have been single for a while, and I strongly desire to meet a woman now. Experts keep telling me that I don't exist.
54
Gee, thanks for evolving your position from "you're a liar" to "you're confused". Yeah, that's a big move forward. Note, a disclaimer about your newfound lack of biphobia reads like "I'm not biphobic but", and calling out Angry Bisexuals With Keyboards is not exactly the way to make them any happier with your transformation from over biphobic bigot to someone trying desperately to close queer spaces to bisexuals.
Every time I think that maybe, just maybe, you've learned something, you try to throw me under the bus, Dan, and I'm starting to thing it's deliberate.
Every time I think that maybe, just maybe, you've learned something, you try to throw me under the bus, Dan, and I'm starting to thing it's deliberate.
55
I don't know why so many people have trouble with this:
If a chick says she's bi, she's pretty much straight.
If a guy says he's bi, he's pretty much gay
Why's this so confusing?
If a chick says she's bi, she's pretty much straight.
If a guy says he's bi, he's pretty much gay
Why's this so confusing?
56
Dude if you are going to be a wad and spew biphobic hate at us at least write NEW biphobic hate. I understand that all that sweet sweet.hetero money.and love has gone to your head as poster boy for "big gay ( not queer!) Inc but come on! Don't make the hate baiting on tmz and ontd and westboro look better!
57
Jesus, people, the letter's 7 years old. Validating the stereotypes Dan made most of a decade ago does not do anyone any favors, least of all yourselves.
59
Dan, I have to ask... why the fuck did you reprint this pathetic piece of shit column? It was one of the worst fucking things you ever wrote, and I stopped reading your stuff for a couple of years afterwards.
Am I an "angry bisexual"? Sure, but that's because shit like this MAKES me angry.
So fuck you, Dan Savage. Either reprint stuff like this with a "look how fucking shitty my advice was seven years ago when I was a frothing-at-the-mouth biphobic cuntbag" or don't reprint it at all.
Am I an "angry bisexual"? Sure, but that's because shit like this MAKES me angry.
So fuck you, Dan Savage. Either reprint stuff like this with a "look how fucking shitty my advice was seven years ago when I was a frothing-at-the-mouth biphobic cuntbag" or don't reprint it at all.
60
Number 3 said perfectly the point I wanted to make. As a bisexual woman, I have been interested in plenty of men and in plenty of women, and in some people who identify outside the gender binary. You know who has been interested in me? Cis men. Therefore, who have I dated? Cis men. It's a matter of numbers, not a preference for penises.
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