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News & ArtsMonday, March 4, 2013
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Sample Sizes
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 5:37 PM
I'm a female in my early 20s and have been seeing my boyfriend for a couple years now. Our sex has always been good but it lacks in one specific area: I am completely bypassed when it comes to foreplay. He will go down on me or finger me before we have vaginal intercourse once every couple of months or so but he wants me to give him head or to jerk him nearly every time we fuck. I love his dick so going down on him isn't a problem and I'm happy to jerk him a little bit when I don't feel like going down on him. I don't need him to focus on me every time before we have sex but this "once every few months" business has made me a bit bitter. He reasons that I'm too hard to get off so he's given up. It's true that I am hard to get off but it's not impossible. In fact, he's the only man to have ever gotten me off without the use of a vibrator, which has only happened twice but proves it possible.
He claims that he never had problems getting past lovers off and I'm the only one who he's had this problem with. That statement bothers me for multiple reasons.
1. I highly doubt all those woman he was with before were actually coming. I hate women that fake it and ruin it for us honest women. It blows men's egos up and makes it seem like there's something wrong with women who are honest about needing more than a quick roll in the hay to achieve orgasm.
2. It makes me feel inadequate and defective, like a man that can't hold an erection. When he does go down on me or fingers me I feel like I need to hurry up before he gets tired so I never enjoy it and end up giving up and moving on to the sex before I get off.
I have expressed my unhappiness with his lack of desire to want to please me, and he will sometimes make an effort but, again, I can't enjoy it because I know he's only doing it because I've nagged him and not because he actually wants to pleasure me. Which leads me to my last issue. I've had this problem with just about every guy I have slept with: "Give me head and then I'll fuck you and then were done." Only once have I been with a man who cared just as much about my pleasure as his and he was eleven years older than me. Which leads me to my questions.
1. Are older men better in bed than younger men because of their experience and maturity?
2. Or was the older man I was with more attentive because he was extremely small and was perhaps trying to make up for it in other ways?
3. How do I get my boyfriend to learn my body with me to achieve an orgasm without him feeling like its a chore and me feeling pressure to preform?
Pissed Off About Not Getting Off
My response after the jump...
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
1. You were lucky enough to fuck one older guy who was good in bed, POANGO, but that's not proof all older guys are good in bed. You can't make assumptions about a given population based on a sample size of one. Trust me: some older guys suck in bed. And while a bad-in-bed young guy can improve with time and experience, he's gottawanna improve. Impatience and selfishness are the main barriers to improvement. You're in a better position to judge if your guy is fatally impatient and/or selfish.
2. Studies with sample sizes larger that one—studies I'm too busy to look up right now but may come back later and add a link—have shown that the sex partners of men with smaller penises report higher levels of sexual satisfaction than the sex partners of men with above-average penises. It would seem that guys with smaller dicks are "trying to make up for it in other ways." And they're not just trying. They're succeeding. Maybe that was the case with the one older guy you slept with, POANGO, or maybe he's just a considerate lover and he would've been just as awesome in the sack even his dick was enormous. Again, hard to extrapolate from a sample size of one.
3. Maybe we should cut your boyfriend some slack. By your own admission, POANGO, you're not easy to get off, you've had this problem with previous boyfriends, and this guy is the only guy who's ever gotten you off without an assist from a vibrator. But necks cramp, tongues give out, fingers go numb. Since you know a vibrator gets you there quicker, POANGO, I think you should keep a vibrator handy when you're having sex. Give the boyfriend permission to use it if and when his neck/tongue/fingers need a break. If you know he's free to transition to the vibrator when he gets tired, you'll be able to relax and enjoy his tongue/fingers without guilt. If he knows he can transition to the vibrator when he gets tired, he'll be less reluctant to initiate tongue and/or finger action.
Just having the vibrator around—as a backup—will take the pressure off you both. And less pressure means less performance anxiety and less performance anxiety generally leads to more and better orgasms.
1
And if he isn't okay with using the vibrator to pleasure you, then dump him. A good lover cares about your pleasure, and if you are giving him a reasonable way for both of you to be happy and enjoy sex, then he's not worth being with if he doesn't take it.
3
You let the boyfriend off easy, Dan. Having a guy you've been dating for a couple of years(!) say that it's not worth trying to get you off because you're especially difficult is not something a good boyfriend says.
I see no reason to tell this woman to continue wasting her time with a man who has no real vested interest in her pleasure. DTMFA. (Or, if you're not quite ready to dump, be more assertive. Engage in foreplay for your pleasure every time, regardless of whether an orgasm is forthcoming. Make foreplay required for any non-quickie sex. This whole non-reciprocal oral and manual thing is bullshit.)
I see no reason to tell this woman to continue wasting her time with a man who has no real vested interest in her pleasure. DTMFA. (Or, if you're not quite ready to dump, be more assertive. Engage in foreplay for your pleasure every time, regardless of whether an orgasm is forthcoming. Make foreplay required for any non-quickie sex. This whole non-reciprocal oral and manual thing is bullshit.)
5
"I have expressed my unhappiness with his lack of desire to want to please me, and he will sometimes make an effort but, again, I can't enjoy it because I know he's only doing it because I've nagged him and not because he actually wants to pleasure me".
DTMFA!!!!!!!!
He does not care about your pleasure, even non orgasmic pleasure that comes with fingering or oral.
DTMFA!!!!!!!!
He does not care about your pleasure, even non orgasmic pleasure that comes with fingering or oral.
6
Only once have I been with a man who cared just as much about my pleasure as his and he was eleven years older than me. Which leads me to my questions.
1. Are older men better in bed than younger men because of their experience and maturity?
One thing is definitely true: whether a man cares as much about a woman's pleasure as he does about his own is an individual thing. For example, even as a teenager, with my first girlfriend, I always took the time to make sure she got off. And I've been that way with every woman since. Conversely, I'm sure you can find older guys who are quite self-centered.
Another thing may be true: it may be that, in general, older guys are less self-centered -- and therefore, at least better in that respect -- than younger guys.
1. Are older men better in bed than younger men because of their experience and maturity?
One thing is definitely true: whether a man cares as much about a woman's pleasure as he does about his own is an individual thing. For example, even as a teenager, with my first girlfriend, I always took the time to make sure she got off. And I've been that way with every woman since. Conversely, I'm sure you can find older guys who are quite self-centered.
Another thing may be true: it may be that, in general, older guys are less self-centered -- and therefore, at least better in that respect -- than younger guys.
7
1. Are older men better in bed than younger men because of their experience and maturity?
Only one way to find out. You need to fuck more older men.
(Whether or not older men are better, they have at least had more time to be educated by a partner on the importance of being GGG.)
Only one way to find out. You need to fuck more older men.
(Whether or not older men are better, they have at least had more time to be educated by a partner on the importance of being GGG.)
8
Having a vibrator around is depressing in a situation like this--trust me, I've been there. May I recommend my book, The Orgasmic Diet?
9
Agree with#3, this guy sounds totally selfish and much like practically every guy I've been with. The kind of guy who expects sex to be porno sex, every time, and tries to guilt trip you if you want/need otherwise.
And Dan, what are you talking about with foreplay? As a hot blooded woman who can also be "hard to get off", I think of foreplay as great kissing>necking>titty sucking and caressing every where. If I get that, without any impatience and attitude, and special attention to the titties, then I'm easy to get off. Oral is great, if the guy can do it right (which is hard to come by) and fingering I usually hate because how most men do it hurts. When I've asked specifically for how I like it and demonstrated, sure they try but it's rushed and half assed so of course it doesn't even feel good.
How'd he like a rough, feeling less blow job that rushed and delivered with an attitude - can you get off yet? hurry up....ah well I'm not even gonna try. Who's going to enjoy that let alone get off? And every few months he'll "try"?
Come on, the guys just a fucker, literally, and a selfish asshole.
To Pissed Off About Not Getting Off:
Give him one more shot, tell him what you want, don't feel like you have to be nice about it and mince your words. State it clearly, if he wants to be with you and continue fucking - together - then he's got to shape up, put in more effort and do it how you like it atleast half the time. And never have the attitude or say again, "you're too hard to get off.
If he reacts and doesn't do it, consistently, then DTMFA.
And Dan, what are you talking about with foreplay? As a hot blooded woman who can also be "hard to get off", I think of foreplay as great kissing>necking>titty sucking and caressing every where. If I get that, without any impatience and attitude, and special attention to the titties, then I'm easy to get off. Oral is great, if the guy can do it right (which is hard to come by) and fingering I usually hate because how most men do it hurts. When I've asked specifically for how I like it and demonstrated, sure they try but it's rushed and half assed so of course it doesn't even feel good.
How'd he like a rough, feeling less blow job that rushed and delivered with an attitude - can you get off yet? hurry up....ah well I'm not even gonna try. Who's going to enjoy that let alone get off? And every few months he'll "try"?
Come on, the guys just a fucker, literally, and a selfish asshole.
To Pissed Off About Not Getting Off:
Give him one more shot, tell him what you want, don't feel like you have to be nice about it and mince your words. State it clearly, if he wants to be with you and continue fucking - together - then he's got to shape up, put in more effort and do it how you like it atleast half the time. And never have the attitude or say again, "you're too hard to get off.
If he reacts and doesn't do it, consistently, then DTMFA.
10
Ditto to what @3 said.
You must be getting soft (No Pun Intended! Really!) in your old age, Dan, because she's been going out with him for 2 years and things haven't gotten better? Not to mention:
He claims that he never had problems getting past lovers off and I'm the only one who he's had this problem with.
That says he's decided it's "her problem" and he's not inclined to work on it any harder.
I'm not the biggest DTMFA cheerleader out there, but that sounds like DTMFA to me.
You must be getting soft (No Pun Intended! Really!) in your old age, Dan, because she's been going out with him for 2 years and things haven't gotten better? Not to mention:
He claims that he never had problems getting past lovers off and I'm the only one who he's had this problem with.
That says he's decided it's "her problem" and he's not inclined to work on it any harder.
I'm not the biggest DTMFA cheerleader out there, but that sounds like DTMFA to me.
11
I think I dated POANGO's boyfriend a few years ago. After months of being extremely GGG myself, and trying to get him to care about my pleasure (and I'm not that difficult to please, believe me), dude finally broke up with ME over this issue. Like POANGO's guy, he somehow thought women come easily with no foreplay or clitoral stimulation, just PIV sex. And here I come along with my *sex drive* and my *asking* for things. For him, I would have to blame porn as well as his selfishness and lack of imagination.
My opinion (and some experience): small guys are often awesome lovers, and older guys ARE better than younger guys in the GGG department.
BTW, it's totally rude for POANGO's boyfriend to compare her with past lovers in this regard. MOST women are difficult to get off using his favorite method (no foreplay, straight to PIV and impatience), so he's either been lied to or he's lying.
I'm not going to be the person to say, "withhold sex a little bit to get his attention" but that is a viable option. Obviously, trying to set an example of GGG behavior isn't causing any changes in his behavior or attitude, so withholding the blowjobs temporarily (it can be done playfully) might be an option to help him understand your frustration.
My opinion (and some experience): small guys are often awesome lovers, and older guys ARE better than younger guys in the GGG department.
BTW, it's totally rude for POANGO's boyfriend to compare her with past lovers in this regard. MOST women are difficult to get off using his favorite method (no foreplay, straight to PIV and impatience), so he's either been lied to or he's lying.
I'm not going to be the person to say, "withhold sex a little bit to get his attention" but that is a viable option. Obviously, trying to set an example of GGG behavior isn't causing any changes in his behavior or attitude, so withholding the blowjobs temporarily (it can be done playfully) might be an option to help him understand your frustration.
12
I agree with what Dan wrote, but I want to think beyond this relationship. I have noticed, M'am, that women who have had a lot of experience getting themselves off have an easier time getting off with a partner. Your orgasms are more complex than ours and require more experience getting there to reliably get there.
But there are some peculiarities about men. From about age 13 to about age 25 we are afflicted with this horrible drug, testosterone, at very high levels. We spend all day and all night chock-full of this drug that makes us want to kill someone or fuck someone, or both, and in no particular order. That's what smooth dudes like Dan refer to as "impatient" or "selfish". About age 25 the level of T starts to drop and we begin to notice that there is a partner on our penis. It isn't so much that "older men" are better; it's that men over 25 are better.
Regarding this relationship, remember that two years is a tiny period of time in your life. This one doesn't look promising.
But there are some peculiarities about men. From about age 13 to about age 25 we are afflicted with this horrible drug, testosterone, at very high levels. We spend all day and all night chock-full of this drug that makes us want to kill someone or fuck someone, or both, and in no particular order. That's what smooth dudes like Dan refer to as "impatient" or "selfish". About age 25 the level of T starts to drop and we begin to notice that there is a partner on our penis. It isn't so much that "older men" are better; it's that men over 25 are better.
Regarding this relationship, remember that two years is a tiny period of time in your life. This one doesn't look promising.
13
Marrena @8, I'm here to provide the opposite perspective: For me it has been very helpful to know that the vibe is there as a guilt-free marital aid. We mix it up, fingers (his & mine), tongue, vibe, tongue, fingers...in a love-fest that leads me to great orgasms where I can't even remember what finally pushed me over the edge.
POANGO, I tend to think this relationship has gone over the bitter edge; you love his dick but don't seem to love him much. But if you want to try to fix things, I recommend a major overhaul. Say you remember some amazing times with him, and want to try to get your sex life really sexy again. Then brainstorm together: crazy fantasies, crazy positions, crazy kinks. If you're willing to try acting like a Domme, for instance, that might be a more reliable way to get what you want than begging for it. Another thing to try is to reserve Friday night for your favorite thing; if you're happy then Saturday night is for his favorite thing (with other days being for the regular sex you both like)... If he can't bring his A game on Friday with the promise of extra fun stuff on Saturday, then that should help convince you the relationship is over.
POANGO, I tend to think this relationship has gone over the bitter edge; you love his dick but don't seem to love him much. But if you want to try to fix things, I recommend a major overhaul. Say you remember some amazing times with him, and want to try to get your sex life really sexy again. Then brainstorm together: crazy fantasies, crazy positions, crazy kinks. If you're willing to try acting like a Domme, for instance, that might be a more reliable way to get what you want than begging for it. Another thing to try is to reserve Friday night for your favorite thing; if you're happy then Saturday night is for his favorite thing (with other days being for the regular sex you both like)... If he can't bring his A game on Friday with the promise of extra fun stuff on Saturday, then that should help convince you the relationship is over.
14
I've never understood people who don't want to be awesome in bed. It's really not that hard to figure out. I explained it to a friend in like to text messages right before they slept with a girl for the first time and they got lots of complements.
15
@8 If your book was that good, you wouldn't need to bash vibrators to build it up. As young Paul Atreides said, the drowning man who climbs on your shoulders to save himself is understandable - except when you see it at the dinner table. And, I should add, in blog comments.
Vibrators aren't depressing. They are a fun toy for both parties.
I suppose a guy who, after some period, sighed, rolled his eyes and reached for the vibrator in obvious irritation might be a moodkill, but that problem is with the guy, not the vibrator.
Vibrators aren't depressing. They are a fun toy for both parties.
I suppose a guy who, after some period, sighed, rolled his eyes and reached for the vibrator in obvious irritation might be a moodkill, but that problem is with the guy, not the vibrator.
16
Older men are better in bed because they're grateful.
Also, they've been trained up a bit, which doesn't hurt.
Also, they've been trained up a bit, which doesn't hurt.
17
Why is the vibrator delegated to backup? Why not just fuck her with the vibrator as part of foreplay or in addition to eating her pussy? Vibrators are a useful and fun tool to use during sex.
18
@12 - The testosterone levels you're referring to have never been conclusively proven to have the aggression effects you describe on males. They have seen that males are more sensitive about social status when increased testosterone is introduced. An interesting example, from the NIH: The Influence of Testosterone on Human A…. It may also increase sex drive, but not nearly as much as external and internal stress, diet and your attitudes regarding sex itself do.
Separately, this guy sounds fucking (ha!) awful. DTMFA
Separately, this guy sounds fucking (ha!) awful. DTMFA
19
Dear POANGO, your boyfriend is a selfish, self-centered jerk. Many young men are; so are many older men. Fortunately, there are plenty of men, both younger and older, who aren't. Some men who have smaller penises are motivated to improve their skills in bed, but many perfectly normal sized (and no doubt, large-dicked men, too) are equally interested in acquiring skills and polishing technique. You should DTMFA and find one of them. He won't mind your vibrator, either. He'll be turned on by the pleasure you take in it, and in him.
It doesn't matter whether the older gentleman you met was representative of either older men his age, or men with small penises; what matters is that your boyfriend, regardless of his age or penis size is a selfish and ungenerous ass who doesn't care whether you're satisfied or not.
It doesn't matter whether the older gentleman you met was representative of either older men his age, or men with small penises; what matters is that your boyfriend, regardless of his age or penis size is a selfish and ungenerous ass who doesn't care whether you're satisfied or not.
20
You let the boyfriend off easy, Dan. What happened to your usual rule that "oral comes standard"? What happened to talking about how she might want to reevaluate this relationship if the guy only cares about his own pleasure?
21
If I were Mr Fortunate, I might speculate on whether there is an actual right answer on the male side of this situation, but amazingly I am sparing myself pointless exertion and not wondering whether this is like trying to decree the exact amount of responsibility for the failure of a relationship a LW should take to optimize how favourably (s)he will be viewed by the commentariat. One need not have any shred of a stake in this one to be quite clear that the male in this case has gotten it quite wrong. Then again, I haven't at all taken to the LW either, and suspect that Mr Savage might have gone easy on the BF out of annoyance with question 2.
Ms Erica, you didn't cross the line this time, but please be careful not to start suggesting inane (and apparently blatantly insincere) platitudes for LWs to utter that could have come directly from the High Priestess of Self-Satisfied Mediocrity Herself.
On the whole, I am actually almost encouraged to see so many DTMFAs (present and potential) without a YDB attached. I don't always disapprove of a You Deserve Better, but it just feels sloppy to see how often people see fault on one side and assume merit on the other, however little substantiation there may be.
Ms Erica, you didn't cross the line this time, but please be careful not to start suggesting inane (and apparently blatantly insincere) platitudes for LWs to utter that could have come directly from the High Priestess of Self-Satisfied Mediocrity Herself.
On the whole, I am actually almost encouraged to see so many DTMFAs (present and potential) without a YDB attached. I don't always disapprove of a You Deserve Better, but it just feels sloppy to see how often people see fault on one side and assume merit on the other, however little substantiation there may be.
22
Way to easy on the boyfriend. He's not going down on her or going manual until he gives up because it takes so long. He's not even doing those things to get her excited before sex. According to her description, he hardly ever bothers with foreplay at all, and when he does it's only after she complains, only grudgingly, and only temporarily. She feels under pressure to perform, but he seems to give less than two shits about helping her along the way.
Only POANGO can be the judge of whether her boyfriend has enough redeeming qualities to make another chance worth a go. If he does then prior to dumping him, she should gve him one last chance. Explain that foreplay isn't optional. It also is a piss-poor excuse that she can't come from it. She likes it, so that should be enough to incorporate it as often as she incorporates head. If he wants to keep her he will engage in foreplay without prompting or nagging, and he will do so for more than the week he thinks it will take for her to cool down, or you're done.
That probably won't work, so POANGO should also know that a disinterest in mutual pleasure during sex is a disqualifier for a relationship, so she should avoid long comittments with men who display the same behavior, once she inevitably becomes single again.
Only POANGO can be the judge of whether her boyfriend has enough redeeming qualities to make another chance worth a go. If he does then prior to dumping him, she should gve him one last chance. Explain that foreplay isn't optional. It also is a piss-poor excuse that she can't come from it. She likes it, so that should be enough to incorporate it as often as she incorporates head. If he wants to keep her he will engage in foreplay without prompting or nagging, and he will do so for more than the week he thinks it will take for her to cool down, or you're done.
That probably won't work, so POANGO should also know that a disinterest in mutual pleasure during sex is a disqualifier for a relationship, so she should avoid long comittments with men who display the same behavior, once she inevitably becomes single again.
23
"She Comes First" should be mandatory reading. Before it covers any technique, it goes into how feeling rushed and feeling like the licker isn't into it can make orgasm impossible. She should read it and ask for specific things. He should read it too, and if he balks she should DTMFA. I tolerated a 1/10 mine:his situation for a long time because I didn't know any better, but she does know better. I wouldn't tolerate it again not should she. It's a life quality issue damnit.
25
Wow, Dan, I'm disappointed w/ this letter (as is the Greek chorus above). It's not like this is a little fling..this woman has been putting up with not getting off for a couple of *years*, and been made to feel like it's her fault somehow. Yeah, fingers get tired, jaws get tired..but you're usually pretty on the ball to tell the ladies who aren't getting the kinda loving they need that they should find someone who can help.
Orgasm is surely not the end-all, be-all, only reason we have sex. But someone that uninterested in their partner's pleasure after that much time invested should be an easy DTMFA, especially since the LW has had the type of orgasmic connection - & more importantly, concern for her pleasure! - she's seeking with another person, before.
There's nothing wrong w/ bringing the vibrator into things, but it's more worrying that he doesn't *care* whether she's having as much fun as him. :/ She sounds bored w/ her current guy, & it's like there's a bad pattern she has w/ previous partners too. So, if the pattern proves unbreakable with this lover, she finds someone new..and BEFORE blowing them/fucking them..before fucking is even looking likely..have lots of dirty talk if possible. IM's, texts..be very explicit..but in some way or another make clear that pleasure is a two-person ride. & to ride her ride, the next guy to roll in should prove he's okay with going down. Not just once, not just for her birthday, but it's something he enjoys, because making her feel good turns him on too. No good with his tongue/hungup./shy? That can take time..he's still got fingers.
Life's too short to put up w/ inconsiderate lovers. Inexperienced can be worked with; "practice" can be fun. Selfishness, not so much; especially if the behavior pattern is set. He's already getting the sex he wants..why should he change..? Move on & set a better pattern early on next time.
More...
Orgasm is surely not the end-all, be-all, only reason we have sex. But someone that uninterested in their partner's pleasure after that much time invested should be an easy DTMFA, especially since the LW has had the type of orgasmic connection - & more importantly, concern for her pleasure! - she's seeking with another person, before.
There's nothing wrong w/ bringing the vibrator into things, but it's more worrying that he doesn't *care* whether she's having as much fun as him. :/ She sounds bored w/ her current guy, & it's like there's a bad pattern she has w/ previous partners too. So, if the pattern proves unbreakable with this lover, she finds someone new..and BEFORE blowing them/fucking them..before fucking is even looking likely..have lots of dirty talk if possible. IM's, texts..be very explicit..but in some way or another make clear that pleasure is a two-person ride. & to ride her ride, the next guy to roll in should prove he's okay with going down. Not just once, not just for her birthday, but it's something he enjoys, because making her feel good turns him on too. No good with his tongue/hungup./shy? That can take time..he's still got fingers.
Life's too short to put up w/ inconsiderate lovers. Inexperienced can be worked with; "practice" can be fun. Selfishness, not so much; especially if the behavior pattern is set. He's already getting the sex he wants..why should he change..? Move on & set a better pattern early on next time.
26
Yea, this chick needs to DTMFA immediately. The way she's describing it, sex doesn't seem remotely fun for her, and her bf sounds like a selfish douche.
When I was early 20s I had never gotten off from a guy...EVER. I thought my body was just difficult, sort of the way this chick is talking. Then I met a guy who was 1) very determined and 2) very talented, and holy hell. I learned what it takes for a guy to get me off, and I'm not afraid to ask for it now.
Sex isn't just about the PIV. DTMFA and find a guy who loves exploring your body, finding what feels good and what gets you hot. and loves putting in the time to get you off. Even if it doesn't work every time (still doesn't for me, sometimes my body just isn't in the mood), that kind of attention and intimacy is ultimately what sex is all about.
When I was early 20s I had never gotten off from a guy...EVER. I thought my body was just difficult, sort of the way this chick is talking. Then I met a guy who was 1) very determined and 2) very talented, and holy hell. I learned what it takes for a guy to get me off, and I'm not afraid to ask for it now.
Sex isn't just about the PIV. DTMFA and find a guy who loves exploring your body, finding what feels good and what gets you hot. and loves putting in the time to get you off. Even if it doesn't work every time (still doesn't for me, sometimes my body just isn't in the mood), that kind of attention and intimacy is ultimately what sex is all about.
27
I agree with #9 that mouth and finger on pussy is a pretty goddamned full-frontal assault interpretation of foreplay. How about plenty of kissing, neck nuzzling, ear nibbling, nipple tweaking, and inner thigh stroking?
Once the genitals are directly being stimulated, it isn't foreplay. Its sex. As Dan has argued many times in the past, typically to people who think only penetrative sex counts as sex, but which he mysteriously declines to remind people of on occasion. Including this occasion.
This sweet-sounding letter writer deserves better than this selfish putz of a two-year boyfriend. DTMFA.
Once the genitals are directly being stimulated, it isn't foreplay. Its sex. As Dan has argued many times in the past, typically to people who think only penetrative sex counts as sex, but which he mysteriously declines to remind people of on occasion. Including this occasion.
This sweet-sounding letter writer deserves better than this selfish putz of a two-year boyfriend. DTMFA.
28
DTMFA. He's having orgasms everytime, and you are not. That's not him making love with you. That's him jerking his load into you, and making sure you won't go anywhere by letting you know you won't find better elsewhere, because you are defective.
The older guys I've met were good in bed. As for size, one is above average, the other two are average. But I wouldn't say every older guy is good in bed.
A guy who likes you will not have an orgasm before you do, and will prefer to forego sex for cuddling if sex is not pleasurable enough for you. A guy can put no pressure on you at all to get or not get to orgasm, because he feels he's there to share nice sensations with you, whatever they might be - and not there only to empty his gonads into the first comfy hole in sight, because it's something he can easily do in his hands on his own time if needed. That's what a decent guy is like.
Your boyfriend is egocentric and manipulative. DTMFA.
Dan, first time I'm disappointed. Your advice sucked. No pleasure in two years and you tell her to stick around still ? Gosh.
The older guys I've met were good in bed. As for size, one is above average, the other two are average. But I wouldn't say every older guy is good in bed.
A guy who likes you will not have an orgasm before you do, and will prefer to forego sex for cuddling if sex is not pleasurable enough for you. A guy can put no pressure on you at all to get or not get to orgasm, because he feels he's there to share nice sensations with you, whatever they might be - and not there only to empty his gonads into the first comfy hole in sight, because it's something he can easily do in his hands on his own time if needed. That's what a decent guy is like.
Your boyfriend is egocentric and manipulative. DTMFA.
Dan, first time I'm disappointed. Your advice sucked. No pleasure in two years and you tell her to stick around still ? Gosh.
29
@15, you've got it the wrong way around. My experience was exactly like POANGO's, except more so. All these comments here about her dick boyfriend, you are overlooking that she says this isn't the first time she's had this sort of problem in her relationships.
Like it or not, there ARE women who come easily from penentration, without any foreplay whatsoever. I'm one of those women and I've helped other women gain the same ability. Her boyfriend isn't lying about his previous girlfriend--women like us are out there. Vaginal orgasms don't replace clitoral orgasms--both are good, but the ability to have both made my relationships a lot easier.
Now everyone is going to say that vaginal orgasms are some kind of mythical lie. Which is wrong. I'm tired of dragging out the science. Also I'm not saying that women who can only have clitoral orgasms are substandard in any way. But women who can have both, especially when having clitoral orgasms is extremely difficult for the woman, can sometimes see more clearly that their boyfriend is a douchebag. It was only after I gained the ability to have vaginal orgasms that I realized my ex was simply a selfish jerk. It cleared up my peripheral feelings of inadequacy.
Like it or not, there ARE women who come easily from penentration, without any foreplay whatsoever. I'm one of those women and I've helped other women gain the same ability. Her boyfriend isn't lying about his previous girlfriend--women like us are out there. Vaginal orgasms don't replace clitoral orgasms--both are good, but the ability to have both made my relationships a lot easier.
Now everyone is going to say that vaginal orgasms are some kind of mythical lie. Which is wrong. I'm tired of dragging out the science. Also I'm not saying that women who can only have clitoral orgasms are substandard in any way. But women who can have both, especially when having clitoral orgasms is extremely difficult for the woman, can sometimes see more clearly that their boyfriend is a douchebag. It was only after I gained the ability to have vaginal orgasms that I realized my ex was simply a selfish jerk. It cleared up my peripheral feelings of inadequacy.
30
Glad others beat me to the DTMFA. If he were only at the point of communicating to LW that he was frustrated and wanted to find a way to please her, then there might be room for giving him an assist via mutual masturbation or starting with vibrator, etc.
But his "I got my quota of clit pressing in, now get me off" attitude is a no-go, no more, DTMFA. The only bad thing is that he will eventually end up with an easy-to please woman and he'll just be reinforced in his laziness and selfishness.
But his "I got my quota of clit pressing in, now get me off" attitude is a no-go, no more, DTMFA. The only bad thing is that he will eventually end up with an easy-to please woman and he'll just be reinforced in his laziness and selfishness.
31
She's in her early 20s, which could mean she has a little way to go in learning how to have orgasms. Dan could also have recommended she spend more time learning more ways to get herself off and passing that knowledge on to her boyfriend.
But yes, @30 has it right - the boyfriend sounds like he doesn't care about getting her off and never has. There are plenty of men whose sexual satisfaction is locked into making a woman come. Why not try one of those? They're not all that hard to find.
But yes, @30 has it right - the boyfriend sounds like he doesn't care about getting her off and never has. There are plenty of men whose sexual satisfaction is locked into making a woman come. Why not try one of those? They're not all that hard to find.
32
Sorry, Dan, but that pathetic excuse of a bf does not deserve to be given such delicate treatment. Even if the LW brought out a vibrator as an assistive device, I'd bet he'd hate having to use it (as a threat to the almighty power of his magic cock, dontcha know) and would have yet another reason to toss unhelpful comparisons in her face (none of my previous partners needed a vibrator, yadda-fucking-yadda).
He just doesn't care about her NEEDS. As long as he's getting his, DEMANDS fulfilled, he's fine. There's no quid pro quo, merely status quo.
OTOH, the LW should be encouraged to find PIV positions that stimulate her G-spot, though I'd bet he wouldn't cooperate if he knew that was her goal. Because it's still too much trouble and effort on his part.
He just doesn't care about her NEEDS. As long as he's getting his, DEMANDS fulfilled, he's fine. There's no quid pro quo, merely status quo.
OTOH, the LW should be encouraged to find PIV positions that stimulate her G-spot, though I'd bet he wouldn't cooperate if he knew that was her goal. Because it's still too much trouble and effort on his part.
33
LW, take responsibility for the own state of your relationship. It's not the fault of the women who came (err, didn't come) before, especially since as others have pointed out, some women genuinely do have "vaginal" orgasms. (In these cases though, it's worth pointing out that what is being stimulated, is in fact STILL the clitoris, albeit through the vaginal wall.)
Also, rather than blame the women who feel compelled to lie, one should ask, why do women feel the need to lie about this? One could just as easily "blame" men who ask if their partner gets an orgasm, because it's tied up in some sort of manhood complex, but when it is difficult, they simply call the woman defective because they don't want to make the effort.
ANYWAY. If he's unconcerned with her pleasure, as he sounds like, or simply finds it a chore to get her off, time to DTMFA. I find it bizarre though that she doesn't mention using toys to help her get there, since she knows this works and the use of toys isn't "cheating".
Also, rather than blame the women who feel compelled to lie, one should ask, why do women feel the need to lie about this? One could just as easily "blame" men who ask if their partner gets an orgasm, because it's tied up in some sort of manhood complex, but when it is difficult, they simply call the woman defective because they don't want to make the effort.
ANYWAY. If he's unconcerned with her pleasure, as he sounds like, or simply finds it a chore to get her off, time to DTMFA. I find it bizarre though that she doesn't mention using toys to help her get there, since she knows this works and the use of toys isn't "cheating".
34
This guys sounds like a loser. Dump the mother fucker! Find someone who'll actually try to get you off before saying its impossible. Sounds like he doesn't really give a shit and the girl has obviously thought alot about this
35
POANGO - you ask him to do something and he does, but it's no good because you had to ask? That kind of attitude will kill a relationship. He loves you enough that when you want something from him and vocalize it, he obliges. So relax and just fucking enjoy it. With your attitude, there is no way you'll be happy. You're choosing to be miserable here ...
And have him use a vibrator - if you want things to go differently, then you need to try different things.
And have him use a vibrator - if you want things to go differently, then you need to try different things.
37
DTMFA. Not just because the sex isn't great, but because he's making it all YOUR fault. I would be willing to bet* that he makes other things your fault, too--if you need something emotionally, does it become an argument about how needy you are and how you are the one who is unsupportive? If you ask him to do other (nonsexual) things, does it become a discussion about how busy and stressed he is and how a supportive partner would be more understanding?
I bet it does. He sounds inconsiderate. He sounds narcissistic. He sounds entitled. He sounds like someone who is perfectly willing for you to internalize something as "your problem" rather than solve the problem.
(*I might just be conflating this guy with my ex-husband. ;) But the attitude is totally the same, even if the precise issue was different!!)
I bet it does. He sounds inconsiderate. He sounds narcissistic. He sounds entitled. He sounds like someone who is perfectly willing for you to internalize something as "your problem" rather than solve the problem.
(*I might just be conflating this guy with my ex-husband. ;) But the attitude is totally the same, even if the precise issue was different!!)
39
Yikes, I've gotta add my disapproval here. LW says "he's given up" and Dan thinks he should be cut some slack? Nope, he doesn't care about your pleasure and is clearly happy to pathologize your libido ("he never had problems getting past lovers off and I'm the only one who he's had this problem with"). DTMFA, and spend some time getting to know your OWN body, and figuring out what works for you.
40
Adding to the DTMFA and YDB.
Dan, you really, really blew this one. And not in the good way.
Only thing I can add, is that this IDGAF attitude by all too many men is why women don't want casual sex as much as men do. Dan, if you were expected to take personal risks (STDS/Pregnancy/Assault/Slut Shaming) AND service someone else's needs without getting an orgasm in return EVER, would you really be willing to do it?
Dan, you really, really blew this one. And not in the good way.
Only thing I can add, is that this IDGAF attitude by all too many men is why women don't want casual sex as much as men do. Dan, if you were expected to take personal risks (STDS/Pregnancy/Assault/Slut Shaming) AND service someone else's needs without getting an orgasm in return EVER, would you really be willing to do it?
42
Thinking about the age thing — I read a lot of feminist stuff written in the ’60s and ’70s. There were a lot of women complaining about sex being defined as him getting off and going to sleep, and if she wanted an orgasm she’d have to look after it herself while he ignored her. I thought that was bizarre when I was reading this stuff as a pre-teen and a teen and my own experience with boys and men my age in ’80s was nothing like that at all. My partners were committed to my pleasure, communication was free and open, I had a good time and we both learned stuff.
Then came the internet. Everyone has easier access to porn than they do to live partners and sex is back to what my mother’s generation complained about. (In my limited experience these days, men a little younger than I am are worse lovers than men a little older than I am. It seems like more of a generational thing than an age thing.) It’s really depressing. Yes there is more to sex than men getting off, despite what porn might tell you. Why does this message get lost so easily?
Maybe it’s not about porn at all, but it seems to me that men who came of age in the 70s and 80s were in some kind of sweet spot.
Probably not. Probably just a combination of sampling error and confirmation bias.
Then came the internet. Everyone has easier access to porn than they do to live partners and sex is back to what my mother’s generation complained about. (In my limited experience these days, men a little younger than I am are worse lovers than men a little older than I am. It seems like more of a generational thing than an age thing.) It’s really depressing. Yes there is more to sex than men getting off, despite what porn might tell you. Why does this message get lost so easily?
Maybe it’s not about porn at all, but it seems to me that men who came of age in the 70s and 80s were in some kind of sweet spot.
Probably not. Probably just a combination of sampling error and confirmation bias.
43
Thinking about the age thing — I read a lot of feminist stuff written in the ’60s and ’70s. There were a lot of women complaining about sex being defined as him getting off and going to sleep, and if she wanted an orgasm she’d have to look after it herself while he ignored her. I thought that was bizarre when I was reading this stuff as a pre-teen and a teen and my own experience with boys and men my age in ’80s was nothing like that at all. My partners were committed to my pleasure, communication was free and open, I had a good time and we both learned stuff.
Then came the internet. Everyone has easier access to porn than they do to live partners and sex is back to what my mother’s generation complained about. (In my limited experience these days, men a little younger than I am are worse lovers than men a little older than I am. It seems like more of a generational thing than an age thing.) It’s really depressing. Yes there is more to sex than men getting off, despite what porn might tell you. Why does this message get lost so easily?
Maybe it’s not about porn at all, but it seems to me that men who came of age in the 70s and 80s were in some kind of sweet spot.
... or not. Probably just a combination of sampling error and confirmation bias.
Then came the internet. Everyone has easier access to porn than they do to live partners and sex is back to what my mother’s generation complained about. (In my limited experience these days, men a little younger than I am are worse lovers than men a little older than I am. It seems like more of a generational thing than an age thing.) It’s really depressing. Yes there is more to sex than men getting off, despite what porn might tell you. Why does this message get lost so easily?
Maybe it’s not about porn at all, but it seems to me that men who came of age in the 70s and 80s were in some kind of sweet spot.
... or not. Probably just a combination of sampling error and confirmation bias.
44
OMG this guy sucks. If my gf even implied that it was too hard to make me come and therefore she was just not going to try anymore, I would be in the driveway with the car in reverse in 3 min flat.
Also, I've been w/ girls who take way longer than me to come. But they were fucking hot and worth the effort. Jesus. Sex w/ a girl you're attracted to is one of the greatest things that can happen in your entire life. Obviously this dude is not that into his gf.
Lastly, maybe I'm old fashioned, but vibrators during sex are lame, and I say this as a lesbian. Not my thing at all. Not hot. I do think it's a reasonable to prefer a device-free sexual experience. Just as it's reasonable to want to include them. Takes all kinds.
Also, I've been w/ girls who take way longer than me to come. But they were fucking hot and worth the effort. Jesus. Sex w/ a girl you're attracted to is one of the greatest things that can happen in your entire life. Obviously this dude is not that into his gf.
Lastly, maybe I'm old fashioned, but vibrators during sex are lame, and I say this as a lesbian. Not my thing at all. Not hot. I do think it's a reasonable to prefer a device-free sexual experience. Just as it's reasonable to want to include them. Takes all kinds.
45
Also, he's a two-timer, 'cause POANGO's guy IS my bf. Here's the thing: unlike POANGO, none of my exes have ever been like this! So I thought my bf's extreme selfishness was kinda kinky and special-- in a dom / sub kinda way. Okay, yeah: I'm a fucking moron. Two weeks ago, after YEARS of this crap, I finally said I wouldn't get him off again until he at least *tried* to get me off. Later, he admitted that he'd heard that as "I never want to have sex with you again, ever."
46
Pivoting off 44, this is one that benefits from reversing the genders. What would you tell an LW whose girlfriend told him that he was just too hard to get off, and so sex would consist of him performing oral until she came, or him penetrating her until she came, and then they were done for that session? Unless you have a dom/sub setup like 45, that's really not appealing.
POANGO, since this is a pattern for you, after you dump him I'd suggest being single for a bit and trying to figure out how to break the pattern. Your one considerate lover had both age and a smaller penis to help him figure out some moves beyond "Look! I have a dick! You should have an orgasm now!" but I doubt that's all it was. He probably did things before you hit the sheets that indicated he cared about your feelings and how much fun you were having: what were they?
POANGO, since this is a pattern for you, after you dump him I'd suggest being single for a bit and trying to figure out how to break the pattern. Your one considerate lover had both age and a smaller penis to help him figure out some moves beyond "Look! I have a dick! You should have an orgasm now!" but I doubt that's all it was. He probably did things before you hit the sheets that indicated he cared about your feelings and how much fun you were having: what were they?
47
@45, uhm, he IS your boyfriend? Please tell me you wrote that out of habit when what you meant to say was that he WAS your boyfriend, since you naturally DTMF jackass?
48
@36: Then perhaps all the Alpha Males should just get together and jerk each other off and leave the rest of us out of it, eh?
50
@46, my husband told me he couldn't get off from oral, and he didn't like the pressure. So I sucked his dick for my own pleasure, but didn't worry about finishing that way since he seemed to think it wasn't his thing. After we opened up our marriage (after 14 years), a more experienced woman helped him come from oral, and then I figured it out (with his more eager assistance), and now I can regularly get him off from oral.
I don't think switching the genders makes any difference to the issue. If a couple is sexually compatible, then they have an assortment of sexual activities they both enjoy. Finding that assortment is what dating is for; if you don't have enough overlap, or if one person feels neglected (as with POANGO), then you're probably not compatible. Better to end the relationship and find someone compatible. If you ARE compatible, it's also good to be open-minded about things you think don't work for you. Our bodies change, and even without the help of third parties, we can learn to love something over time.
I don't think switching the genders makes any difference to the issue. If a couple is sexually compatible, then they have an assortment of sexual activities they both enjoy. Finding that assortment is what dating is for; if you don't have enough overlap, or if one person feels neglected (as with POANGO), then you're probably not compatible. Better to end the relationship and find someone compatible. If you ARE compatible, it's also good to be open-minded about things you think don't work for you. Our bodies change, and even without the help of third parties, we can learn to love something over time.
51
Erica: It's one thing for person A to say "I don't come from X and don't like the pressure" and completely different for person B to say to person A "You're slow to bring off from X so I'm not going to bother, even though you love it and I expect you to do a comparable act on me." Plus "In fact, I'm not going to do anything that gets you off, or even gives you physical pleasure short of orgasm, because it takes time and my previous lovers (or the girls I watch in porn--this guy is young enough I'm skeptical about his supposed string of previous lovers providing honest feedback about how they came all the time with no foreplay) didn't need that foreplay stuff."
Some women have a hard time climaxing (or can't at all) and don't want to feel pressured to come every time. And I imagine most women, at some point or many points, have had the reaction "You know, I'm miles away and the last thing I want to do is turn this into a grim trudge to get me there." POANGO's partner is not only refusing to do the stuff that would get her off, he also seems to be refusing to do anything beyond what he needs to get to his own climax.
Some women have a hard time climaxing (or can't at all) and don't want to feel pressured to come every time. And I imagine most women, at some point or many points, have had the reaction "You know, I'm miles away and the last thing I want to do is turn this into a grim trudge to get me there." POANGO's partner is not only refusing to do the stuff that would get her off, he also seems to be refusing to do anything beyond what he needs to get to his own climax.
52
12/Ballard Pimp: But there are some peculiarities about men. From about age 13 to about age 25 we are afflicted with this horrible drug, testosterone, at very high levels. We spend all day and all night chock-full of this drug that makes us want to kill someone or fuck someone, or both, and in no particular order.
18/goodjobguy: @12 - The testosterone levels you're referring to have never been conclusively proven to have the aggression effects you describe on males.
When I was in my teens and twenties I wanted to fuck (or masturbate) all the time, but didn't have that physically aggressive impulse so many younger guys seem to have.
18/goodjobguy: @12 - The testosterone levels you're referring to have never been conclusively proven to have the aggression effects you describe on males.
When I was in my teens and twenties I wanted to fuck (or masturbate) all the time, but didn't have that physically aggressive impulse so many younger guys seem to have.
53
42/Alison: Then came the internet. Everyone has easier access to porn than they do to live partners and sex is back to what my mother’s generation complained about. (In my limited experience these days, men a little younger than I am are worse lovers than men a little older than I am. It seems like more of a generational thing than an age thing.) It’s really depressing. . . . Maybe it’s not about porn at all, but it seems to me that men who came of age in the 70s and 80s were in some kind of sweet spot.
I've seen other women on Slog attribute the selfishness of the guys they've been with to porn. While I tend to think that's not the case, I suppose there could be something to it.
I've seen other women on Slog attribute the selfishness of the guys they've been with to porn. While I tend to think that's not the case, I suppose there could be something to it.
54
@51: Sounds like we agree with each other. I just thought that 46 was unnecessarily bringing up gender. Everyone already thought POANGO should leave her partner, and changing the genders wasn't necessary to see that. Conversely, if POANGO were happy with her sex life, and just eager to improve a good situation with more orgasms (as my husband was), there wouldn't be any need to leave her boyfriend, just to educate him.
55
@53: It's not exactly porn in and of itself, but the sheer amount of mainstream porn that depicts the same kind of stuff gives the impression that it all must be like this, and since kids don't get very much sex education on what sex is actually supposed to be like, it's an impression that isn't getting corrected very well. It's as if love were a taboo topic but romantic comedies were extremely widely available. I have no problem with porn- I have a problem with inadequate sex education. Merely explaining that porn is more about what is easy to film or visually stimulating to the target audience than it is about showing what sex is like would help a lot of young people, IMO.
56
"When he does go down on me or fingers me I feel like I need to hurry up before he gets tired so I never enjoy it and end up giving up and moving on to the sex before I get off."
Wait, wait, wait wait, hold up there... Are you saying that to you "foreplay" means that he has to bring you all the way to orgasm before intercourse? If so, and it takes you 45 minutes of active, focused stimulation to get there, then he has a point. Do you have to blow him for 45 minutes straight including getting an ejaculation out of him before the two of you are "allowed" to fuck? Do you suppose your jaw might get just a little bit cranky, and you a little bit reluctant to get started, if you had that to look forward to every time?
Don't get me wrong: the place where he is going off the rails is in giving up completely, and that is and should be a dealbreaker. On the other hand, you need to come to terms with the fact that you are indeed slow to come, and not let your ego wallow in "I'm Not Broken, Damn You" games. Figure out some routines that allow him to take a break, change things up, incorporate sex into the overall experience, and end by making sure you finish satisfactorily -- yes, probably after he does, but as long as he doesn't give up and you actually get yours -- rather than requiring 45 minutes of nonstop tongue-calisthenics out of him (and unrealistic, mood-killing expectations out of you) during the opening act.
Wait, wait, wait wait, hold up there... Are you saying that to you "foreplay" means that he has to bring you all the way to orgasm before intercourse? If so, and it takes you 45 minutes of active, focused stimulation to get there, then he has a point. Do you have to blow him for 45 minutes straight including getting an ejaculation out of him before the two of you are "allowed" to fuck? Do you suppose your jaw might get just a little bit cranky, and you a little bit reluctant to get started, if you had that to look forward to every time?
Don't get me wrong: the place where he is going off the rails is in giving up completely, and that is and should be a dealbreaker. On the other hand, you need to come to terms with the fact that you are indeed slow to come, and not let your ego wallow in "I'm Not Broken, Damn You" games. Figure out some routines that allow him to take a break, change things up, incorporate sex into the overall experience, and end by making sure you finish satisfactorily -- yes, probably after he does, but as long as he doesn't give up and you actually get yours -- rather than requiring 45 minutes of nonstop tongue-calisthenics out of him (and unrealistic, mood-killing expectations out of you) during the opening act.
57
Yeah, Dan. Though I think it's great your advice to incorporate the vibrator and also that you explain that tongues can get tired--I think you blew it by not spending much language on supporting this woman against her boyfriend's protests that pretty much attempt to justify a long trend of him taking and her not getting--and of him guilt tripping her because his other girlfriends could get off. You said you were busy so maybe you just blew past it--but I expected a little more here as I think had it been a guy complaining you would have talked more about the selfish lover if he/she doesn't take more interest in solving the problem. I happen to think you advocate for women very strongly, in general--but, come on, this was a bit lame. Please let's not return to a time where guys could justify taking pleasure without reciprocation, just because it takes a woman a longer. I very much know you don't think that at all. But I know that boyfriend in reading your answer isn't going to start taking the girlfriend's dissatisfaction very seriously. And that is just a shame. He needs to be told he has to be part of solving this issue, and that this issue should be very important to him--not just to her.
58
re #56 -- to say the same thing in simpler words: I predict that he would be a lot more willing to engage regularly in ten minutes of fingers and tongue at the beginning to get you aroused, followed by twenty minutes of fucking, and fifteen minutes to finish you off, than forty-five minutes of fingers and tongue to finish you off followed by twenty additional minutes of fucking. (In the latter case, wouldn't _he_ be the one feeling pressure to hurry up and get off because you were obviously done?)
59
@56/58 -- do note that LW would be fine with getting off once in a while and not every time they had sex; she's already being quite accommodating and reasonable here. There's no mention of what he is like, but a lot of dudes don't want to do anything after getting off, and if PIV doesn't do it for her, it could mean that she'd have to start over again on getting off after PIV. While not stated, it sounds like BF has the attitude that sex is done when he's done, and in that case, him finishing her off after isn't an option. And she definitely should no longer be obligated to blow or jerk him if he's not willing to put forth effort for her.
I do agree that LW should take some time to learn her own sexuality and feel comfortable with getting herself off around a partner (lots of time for that after DTMFA). If she's able to go into sex confident that she can orgasm when she wants, then it's less of a limited commodity the he would hold the power in doling out.
I do agree that LW should take some time to learn her own sexuality and feel comfortable with getting herself off around a partner (lots of time for that after DTMFA). If she's able to go into sex confident that she can orgasm when she wants, then it's less of a limited commodity the he would hold the power in doling out.
60
@42: "I read a lot of feminist stuff written in the ’60s and ’70s. There were a lot of women complaining about sex being defined as him getting off and going to sleep, and if she wanted an orgasm she’d have to look after it herself while he ignored her. I thought that was bizarre when I was reading this stuff as a pre-teen and a teen and my own experience with boys and men my age in ’80s was nothing like that at all. My partners were committed to my pleasure, communication was free and open, I had a good time and we both learned stuff.
Then came the internet. Everyone has easier access to porn than they do to live partners and sex is back to what my mother’s generation complained about. (In my limited experience these days, men a little younger than I am are worse lovers than men a little older than I am. It seems like more of a generational thing than an age thing.) It’s really depressing. Yes there is more to sex than men getting off, despite what porn might tell you. Why does this message get lost so easily?"
Access to porn doesn't lead to being an uncaring, uninteresting partner, I'm not sure why you missed the point to the writing you mention and blame anything but a dude who's uninterested in taking care of their needs. There are other forces at work than internet porn here, and your personal anecdotes run counter to your own claims that everything is worse.
What's different today? Why is the average person complaining whereas before only the avowed feminists did so in the past?
People are better educated.
People better know what they're missing out on.
People are more honest to their partners and friends.
People actually talk about sex in public.
More reported problems is not more problems.
More...
Then came the internet. Everyone has easier access to porn than they do to live partners and sex is back to what my mother’s generation complained about. (In my limited experience these days, men a little younger than I am are worse lovers than men a little older than I am. It seems like more of a generational thing than an age thing.) It’s really depressing. Yes there is more to sex than men getting off, despite what porn might tell you. Why does this message get lost so easily?"
Access to porn doesn't lead to being an uncaring, uninteresting partner, I'm not sure why you missed the point to the writing you mention and blame anything but a dude who's uninterested in taking care of their needs. There are other forces at work than internet porn here, and your personal anecdotes run counter to your own claims that everything is worse.
What's different today? Why is the average person complaining whereas before only the avowed feminists did so in the past?
People are better educated.
People better know what they're missing out on.
People are more honest to their partners and friends.
People actually talk about sex in public.
More reported problems is not more problems.
61
@53: They're likely messing up the order of what happens. Guys who don't give a damn might prefer the uncomplicated fantasy of porn to actual contact, but by her own stories, these guys existed when porn was only visible at stag parties. Porn didn't create the issue, nor does it cause the issue in specific men, no matter what the conservative anti-obscenity movement likes to cite anecdotes for (obviously the poster here is not making that argument, but there is certainly a twinge of their arguments to ban pornography for the good of relationships being repeated here.)
It's a lot easier to shift blame to porn than it is to address someone's lack of interest in or capability for a healthy sex life.
It's a lot easier to shift blame to porn than it is to address someone's lack of interest in or capability for a healthy sex life.
62
@56, Why do you find it more reasonable that he should come first every time than that she should come first? Either they should take turns coming first, or the person who is better at staying engaged in the sexual play after (a first) orgasm is the one who should come first more often.
63
@56, a lot of women need continuous stimulation. That is, 4x 10 minutes with "breaks" does not equal 45 minutes of stimulation. Also, hate to say it, but many men seem to feel "done" with sex once they come, or they get very tired, thus it is unfair that she should always come second.
>>"and not let your ego wallow in "I'm Not Broken, Damn You" games."
Wow. The LW is being very accommodating, and if she is wallowing at all, it is because her boyfriend is the one implying she's broken!
>>"and not let your ego wallow in "I'm Not Broken, Damn You" games."
Wow. The LW is being very accommodating, and if she is wallowing at all, it is because her boyfriend is the one implying she's broken!
64
(Also, I realize men need continuous stimulation to stay hard too. The main difference is that for most women, PIV sex is not very stimulating in and of itself.)
65
@63: I was guessing that she might get *something* pleasurable out of intercourse? It's not like "taking breaks" means getting up and going to the bathroom. It means changing positions, implements, maybe switching to sex for a bit. Surely sex is pleasurable? And surely one or both of them can be helping out with fingers (or toys) on the more sensitive bits while they fuck? Does she expect to lay there for 45 minutes while he goes to town on her?
If she really requires 45 minutes of completely uninterrupted, focused, clitoral stimulation to get off at all, then get a damned Rabbit, rather than accusing her partner of being lazy.
I mean, yes, it's totally fair to accuse him of being lazy for throwing his hands in the air and giving up on her. I'll be the first to say, "Dude, get your ass in gear and start helping out. You don't get to simply say it's too much work." But I don't think it's fair to demand 45 minutes of manual labor before getting any attention in return. I think they could be going about it more creatively.
"Also, hate to say it, but many men seem to feel "done" with sex once they come, or they get very tired,
Agreed. This is precisely the part that I am saying the men _don't_ get to get away with. If you've had yours, then you owe her hers. Just preferably without involving tongue cramps.
If she really requires 45 minutes of completely uninterrupted, focused, clitoral stimulation to get off at all, then get a damned Rabbit, rather than accusing her partner of being lazy.
I mean, yes, it's totally fair to accuse him of being lazy for throwing his hands in the air and giving up on her. I'll be the first to say, "Dude, get your ass in gear and start helping out. You don't get to simply say it's too much work." But I don't think it's fair to demand 45 minutes of manual labor before getting any attention in return. I think they could be going about it more creatively.
"Also, hate to say it, but many men seem to feel "done" with sex once they come, or they get very tired,
Agreed. This is precisely the part that I am saying the men _don't_ get to get away with. If you've had yours, then you owe her hers. Just preferably without involving tongue cramps.
66
@62: It's not a race to get over the finish line first. It's making sure both people are satisfied. Who comes first is irrelevant, as long as both of them come before calling it quits. The problem here is that someone seems to be making it important unnecessarily, by bringing her from a cold start all the way to orgasm in one long march. If that is the expected sequence, I can see him getting a little tired of the prospect of 45 minutes of uninterrupted work to bring her off.
True, he's totally in the wrong for ignoring her completely at the beginning. Going straight to sex without any foreplay to get her aroused is potentially injurious, and just plain rude even with a bottle of lube. Likewise not making the effort at the end because it's just too hard. He doesn't get to get away with that.
I just think that maybe it might be sufficient to get her aroused and have some enjoyable sex together, which hopefully should also have the benefit of getting her closer -- rather than what appears from the description to be taking turns masturbating the other person from start to finish while they lie there and take it. If the sex serves to get her closer, then it's not as much work to get to the finish line in one go. Unless sex does nothing for her, it becomes less work for more orgasms, so what's not to like?
True, he's totally in the wrong for ignoring her completely at the beginning. Going straight to sex without any foreplay to get her aroused is potentially injurious, and just plain rude even with a bottle of lube. Likewise not making the effort at the end because it's just too hard. He doesn't get to get away with that.
I just think that maybe it might be sufficient to get her aroused and have some enjoyable sex together, which hopefully should also have the benefit of getting her closer -- rather than what appears from the description to be taking turns masturbating the other person from start to finish while they lie there and take it. If the sex serves to get her closer, then it's not as much work to get to the finish line in one go. Unless sex does nothing for her, it becomes less work for more orgasms, so what's not to like?
67
@57: and of him guilt tripping her because his other girlfriends could get off."
Him guilt-tripping her over the other girlfriends? I think that's a serious stretch. More like her asking why he is unwilling to put in a marathon, him saying none of the other girlfriends required a marathon, and her freaking out and feeling like damaged goods.
To hear her talk, there are no women who come after only five or six minutes of the right sort of stimulation, there are only the ones like her and the ones who fake it. That was one of the lines that prompted my comment about "I'm Not Broken, Damn You." Letter Writer, you take a long time to come. Own it. Demand that he take care of your needs (or dump him if he won't). But don't go around pretending there is no such thing as a woman who comes more easily or more quickly than you do, in order to shore up your fragile ego. If a man went around claiming "There are six-inchers, and there are liars" you would laugh at him.
Him guilt-tripping her over the other girlfriends? I think that's a serious stretch. More like her asking why he is unwilling to put in a marathon, him saying none of the other girlfriends required a marathon, and her freaking out and feeling like damaged goods.
To hear her talk, there are no women who come after only five or six minutes of the right sort of stimulation, there are only the ones like her and the ones who fake it. That was one of the lines that prompted my comment about "I'm Not Broken, Damn You." Letter Writer, you take a long time to come. Own it. Demand that he take care of your needs (or dump him if he won't). But don't go around pretending there is no such thing as a woman who comes more easily or more quickly than you do, in order to shore up your fragile ego. If a man went around claiming "There are six-inchers, and there are liars" you would laugh at him.
68
@64: "Also, I realize men need continuous stimulation to stay hard too."
Well, not necessarily physical stimulation. True, if they get distracted by baseball scores or stock trades, things are going to subside. But most of the time, if they are paying any interest at all, the fact that there's a naked woman in their line of sight is more than sufficient.
"The main difference is that for most women, PIV sex is not very stimulating in and of itself."
There are all manner of positions in which one or both partners have at least one hand free to help out. This is exactly what I am suggesting to Letter Writer as a way to make things more, well, efficient. If prolonged manual stimulation is what gets her off, is there some reason why involving his dick at the same time would make it worse for her?
Well, not necessarily physical stimulation. True, if they get distracted by baseball scores or stock trades, things are going to subside. But most of the time, if they are paying any interest at all, the fact that there's a naked woman in their line of sight is more than sufficient.
"The main difference is that for most women, PIV sex is not very stimulating in and of itself."
There are all manner of positions in which one or both partners have at least one hand free to help out. This is exactly what I am suggesting to Letter Writer as a way to make things more, well, efficient. If prolonged manual stimulation is what gets her off, is there some reason why involving his dick at the same time would make it worse for her?
69
@68:
Actually, having a dick involved (PIV) can be a little distracting when working up to an orgasm, if what one needs is to concentrate on one focused area/sensation. So yes, it might make it worse.
Actually, having a dick involved (PIV) can be a little distracting when working up to an orgasm, if what one needs is to concentrate on one focused area/sensation. So yes, it might make it worse.
70
Ugh. Sounds like my exboyfriend. I'd be VERY surprised if this was the only thing he was being selfish about. This person will never change and you'll start to resent him even more. DTMFA. Best decision I ever made. My boyfriend now would NEVER be so selfish (in bed or out). Oh, and I hope I never hear "this is the first time I've had this issue because my dick is so damn amazing and ugh now I have to tryyyy???" again. He's an idiot and needs to grow up.
71
@69: Possible, yes, depending on the person and the mood, but the important thing is, have they tried it?
72
Many posters keep stating that it takes the letter writer 45 minutes of constant stimulation to get off-- her letter doesn't state how long, just that he isn't usually willing to put ANY effort at all in. In fact, she says that not only with him, but with previous lovers, sex has mostly consisted of her giving head followed intercourse, the end.
I can't imagine taking that deal from any man, much less a succession of them. She should tell this guy to fuck off. And then, she might want to do some serious introspection regarding how she keeps getting into relationships with men who are utterly disinterested in her pleasure.
I can't imagine taking that deal from any man, much less a succession of them. She should tell this guy to fuck off. And then, she might want to do some serious introspection regarding how she keeps getting into relationships with men who are utterly disinterested in her pleasure.
73
@72: What she did say was "It's true that I am hard to get off but it's not impossible." I pulled the number 45 minutes out of the air as something that would approximate that. I agree it would be better to get an actual average value from her, but I also know from personal experience that 45 minutes is not exaggeration.
(As far as that goes, even 10 minutes of uninterrupted tongue lashing can be pretty damned demanding.)
It could also be that he has tried until he got tired or discouraged enough times that he has come to the conclusion that he doesn't have the knack for it with her. Look for the Cautionary Tale in the next SLLOTD. A guy who relentlessly pursues an orgasm that isn't forthcoming can be just as bad as one who doesn't try.
I'm not giving him a free pass for not trying. I am suggesting that the two of them probably need to figure out a different approach. She needs to lay down the law, but she also needs to work with him to figure out how to not make it take 45 minutes, if it is taking that long.
(As far as that goes, even 10 minutes of uninterrupted tongue lashing can be pretty damned demanding.)
It could also be that he has tried until he got tired or discouraged enough times that he has come to the conclusion that he doesn't have the knack for it with her. Look for the Cautionary Tale in the next SLLOTD. A guy who relentlessly pursues an orgasm that isn't forthcoming can be just as bad as one who doesn't try.
I'm not giving him a free pass for not trying. I am suggesting that the two of them probably need to figure out a different approach. She needs to lay down the law, but she also needs to work with him to figure out how to not make it take 45 minutes, if it is taking that long.
74
POANGO, to answer your implied question: Yes, you are defective. Just thought you'd want to know. You're welcome.
75
> how to not make it take 45 minutes
Or, not 45 of one uninterrupted physical motion. Returning us to Dan's advice: "keep a vibrator handy when you're having sex. Give the boyfriend permission to use it if and when his neck/tongue/fingers need a break"
Or, not 45 of one uninterrupted physical motion. Returning us to Dan's advice: "keep a vibrator handy when you're having sex. Give the boyfriend permission to use it if and when his neck/tongue/fingers need a break"
76
@73- It doesn't seem to me that the real issue is that she is hard to get off, the real issue seems to be that she is consistently settling for sex that consists of her performing head followed by intercourse with no focused on her activities at all, And, worse, it seems she has settled for this in past relationships as well. So, yes, he is an asshole. But the big problem is that she keeps choosing assholes.
77
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