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News & ArtsMonday, March 4, 2013
Religion John Aravosis on Cardinal O'Brien
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 6:57 AM
The Catholic leadership has long been a fan of “do as I say, not as I do” morality. It’s okay for them to do every “sin,” but for you, not so much. And they’ll even go so far as to cover up the sin, claim they did nothing wrong—and then blame the victims, as Ratzinger himself did as a cardinal, as did another church leader—when it’s one of their own, as we’ve learned time and again with the church’s pedophilia scandal.
Remember, this is a church that once castrated young boys who came forward to accuse church officials of raping them as children. It’s a church that lamented the imprisonment of pedophiles. And it’s a church that gladly gave a full church funeral to a man who raped over 150 kids.
The Catholic Church’s moral hypocrisy appears to know no bounds. I can’t think of any organization, other than the Boy Scouts, that has had such a problem with pedophiles as the Catholic Church. And both, interestingly, are guilty of such moral hubris. This should be the final nail in the coffin of the Catholic Church’s moral authority, but it won’t be. These are men who rape children and routinely cover it up, while then aiding and abetting the rape of even more children, and who have yet to admit full responsibility for their crimes. In that kind of perverted world, what’s one guy who sexually harassed an 18-year-old?
Hell, eighteen is practically geriatric for this crowd.
1
Hating Catholics is some people's religion.
lucky for them in this country you can worship whatever you want...
lucky for them in this country you can worship whatever you want...
2
The tried and true Catholics don't pay attention to this. When I bring up these kind of things they act surprised and truly don't know or want to know what is going on in their own church. They continue to go on about their business. Maybe shock fatigue with the church has set in?
3
Slap Jesus on it and anything goes. This is nothing new. The Catholic Church has been committing atrocities for two thousand years with no consequences. As soon as Christianity was legalized it started throwing others to the lions. Isn't it time it was stopped?
5
Aravosis tops my "refuse to read" list of ham-handed aggregationists. Some of you may be in a similar bind, so here is a fun story to read instead, "Verizon turns in Baltimore church deacon for storing child porn in cloud".
I am no fan of the practice of publishing mug shots, but this one is pretty perfect (h/t stxdhr via reddit):
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/…
I am no fan of the practice of publishing mug shots, but this one is pretty perfect (h/t stxdhr via reddit):
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/…
6
@5
But if you don't read Aravosis, you can't drink a shot every time he reaches the limit of his vocabulary and uses the word "creepy" for something negative. Are you planning to need your liver next Christmas?
But if you don't read Aravosis, you can't drink a shot every time he reaches the limit of his vocabulary and uses the word "creepy" for something negative. Are you planning to need your liver next Christmas?
7
Considering it is an organization that is above the law and is allowed to police itself for some reason, testimony after-the-fact will not be enough to stop or reform the catholic church.
It will take sting operations, recordings and arrests to shake the foundations of this useless institution.
It will take sting operations, recordings and arrests to shake the foundations of this useless institution.
8
Although he clearly abused his position of power, it appears O'Brien at least is not accused of diddling children. Hopefully, he can still find love and come to terms with his wasted life. The church, on the other hand ...
9
I get harassed all the time by 18 year olds...who yell "Fuck You" when I'm riding my bike as they drive by in their parents car.
Mostly I laugh about it.
10
I believe that many people in the Catholic Church don't see it as a systemic problem but one of a few bad apples. The way they are going to see all of this is that individuals chose to not follow the teachings of the Church, not that the Church is wrong. In their minds the hypocrisy and behavior of certain ones can be swept under the rug. It helps that American Catholic Church leadership has worked very very hard to sweep things under the rug.
In the case of the pedophiles, American Catholic Church leadership shipped off offending priests to areas where people were not enpowered or would be believed.
Anchorage Daily News had an article awhile back on the practice of putting offending priests in Native villages. In the continental US they put them on reservations. I put that in present tense because I don't know that the practice doesn't continue.
A church that makes this an acceptable outcome has lost any moral authority. That's not hating Catholics, it is pointing out criminal behavior.
In the case of the pedophiles, American Catholic Church leadership shipped off offending priests to areas where people were not enpowered or would be believed.
Anchorage Daily News had an article awhile back on the practice of putting offending priests in Native villages. In the continental US they put them on reservations. I put that in present tense because I don't know that the practice doesn't continue.
A church that makes this an acceptable outcome has lost any moral authority. That's not hating Catholics, it is pointing out criminal behavior.
12
One of the central ideas of Catholicism - of all Christianity, really - is redemption. We are all sinners, we can all be saved. So, to them, in a way, none of this matters. Raping children and then beating yourself up about it is better than, oh, missing Mass on Easter, and not caring. Because it's all about the feeling sorry and coming to God in the end, and not so much about the not doing it in the first place.
Remember - this is the religion that believes the newborn unbaptized child is more full of sin than the rapist of that child who later feels really bad and tries hard not to do it again. You can't shame these people, because the worse their behaviour, the stronger the message of redemption.
Remember - this is the religion that believes the newborn unbaptized child is more full of sin than the rapist of that child who later feels really bad and tries hard not to do it again. You can't shame these people, because the worse their behaviour, the stronger the message of redemption.
13
'Ol Danny Savage is grinding axes again, against an organization that doesn't approve of his chosen behaviors...
15
Sad and amazing the number of people who minimize or defend the Church's role in protecting pedophile priests.
16
If you're going to go on about the bad things that the Catholic Church has done, you should also remember that it provides food, clothing, medical treatment education and advocacy for more people on a greater scale and for a longer period of time than almost any other organization in human history. Both the good and the bad should be acknowledged.
Yes, the Church should have used one of its many, many other options to stop this problem. (Oh? Don't want to ruin the Church's reputation by turning a priest over to the police? Lock him up in a jail-I-mean-monastery so he can't do it again.)
If anything, the existence of similar predators in the Boy Scouts proves that this isn't a specifically Church problem. It's far more likely that pedophiles seek out positions that will give them access to victims.
Yes, the Church should have used one of its many, many other options to stop this problem. (Oh? Don't want to ruin the Church's reputation by turning a priest over to the police? Lock him up in a jail-I-mean-monastery so he can't do it again.)
If anything, the existence of similar predators in the Boy Scouts proves that this isn't a specifically Church problem. It's far more likely that pedophiles seek out positions that will give them access to victims.
17
@12 "this is the religion that believes the newborn unbaptized child is more full of sin than the rapist of that child who later feels really bad and tries hard not to do it again"
No, the Catholic Church does not maintain this. Please spend ten minutes on Google before you run your mouth. The Vatican even has a website that's fully translated into English; most Church doctrine is available there. If you want something to be outraged about, find something that's actually true. There's plenty.
No, the Catholic Church does not maintain this. Please spend ten minutes on Google before you run your mouth. The Vatican even has a website that's fully translated into English; most Church doctrine is available there. If you want something to be outraged about, find something that's actually true. There's plenty.
18
@16,
Do you have evidence that the Boy Scouts castrated children who accused troop leaders of molestation?
That vast network of charities and hospitals that the Church maintains has also been used to cover up its crimes, and to perpetuate new ones (such as letting pregnant women die to "save" the fetus).
Do you have evidence that the Boy Scouts castrated children who accused troop leaders of molestation?
That vast network of charities and hospitals that the Church maintains has also been used to cover up its crimes, and to perpetuate new ones (such as letting pregnant women die to "save" the fetus).
19
@DRF
In the Catholic Church I see two entities. One is the assembly of its believers, and of its low clergy, that I quite respect. The second is its hierarchy, that I don't.
The part that provides food, clothing, etc. is the assembly of believers and the low clergy. You would be amazed at how uninterested the high clergy is in helping the poor. One of my cousins, who was a priest dedicated to the poor, stopped believing because he was sent to work for a, let's say, not similarily orientated bishop in Northern Africa, who was all and only about personal riches.
The Catholic hierarchy has, for more than 1000 years, mostly spent its time giving a bad name to all Catholics... And all the believers and the small clergy, who do all the work but reap none of the profits, are powerless and voiceless in matters of doctrine. That's bad.
In the Catholic Church I see two entities. One is the assembly of its believers, and of its low clergy, that I quite respect. The second is its hierarchy, that I don't.
The part that provides food, clothing, etc. is the assembly of believers and the low clergy. You would be amazed at how uninterested the high clergy is in helping the poor. One of my cousins, who was a priest dedicated to the poor, stopped believing because he was sent to work for a, let's say, not similarily orientated bishop in Northern Africa, who was all and only about personal riches.
The Catholic hierarchy has, for more than 1000 years, mostly spent its time giving a bad name to all Catholics... And all the believers and the small clergy, who do all the work but reap none of the profits, are powerless and voiceless in matters of doctrine. That's bad.
20
@ 17 The unbaptized child goes to Limbo. The repentant rapist can go to Heaven.
Yes, in order to attain absolution, there must be true repentance, and there must be sincere avoidance of the occasion of sin. But frankly, anyone who can swallow Church doctrine is capable of enough self deception to think that they really did mean it when they said they were heartily sorry for having offended.
Yes, in order to attain absolution, there must be true repentance, and there must be sincere avoidance of the occasion of sin. But frankly, anyone who can swallow Church doctrine is capable of enough self deception to think that they really did mean it when they said they were heartily sorry for having offended.
21
@14- What do you want to bet GeneStoner is GayDudeForRomney/Seattleblues?
@20- Limbo isn't official church doctrine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo#Limbo… I had thought it was official and then abolished, but I think I got that from Sister Mary Ignatious Explains It All To You, which probably isn't as reliable as Wikipedia.
@20- Limbo isn't official church doctrine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo#Limbo… I had thought it was official and then abolished, but I think I got that from Sister Mary Ignatious Explains It All To You, which probably isn't as reliable as Wikipedia.
22
Hmmm, it was Mother John Birkman who told me about it, in Catechism class. Father Otterson had a lot to say about it too.
If it's what ordained clergy and nuns are teaching to children in formal Church sponsored classes in Church run schools, it's Church doctrine. Pretending it isn't is playing legal games. "Oh, we didn't really mean any of the bits that are somewhat embarrassing to own up to" doesn't cut it.
If it's what ordained clergy and nuns are teaching to children in formal Church sponsored classes in Church run schools, it's Church doctrine. Pretending it isn't is playing legal games. "Oh, we didn't really mean any of the bits that are somewhat embarrassing to own up to" doesn't cut it.
23
@19 We're on the same page about the two churches, though I'd characterize the hierarchy as more out of touch than villainous. If you're going to evaluate things that the Catholic Church did hundreds of years ago, then don't compare it to organizations that are around today. Compare it to other organizations that were around at the same time. Yes, the Church of the 1100-1400s fostered Crusades and oppressed people. It also fostered learning and charity tried to get the various Christian countries to stop waging wars against each other. At the same time, Edward III raped and pillaged his way across France. We acknowledge that that isn't quite the same thing as the British monarchy today.
24
@22 The organization that you're criticizing is the Church hierarchy, the part of the Church that covered up the molestation. You claimed that beliefs like Limbo caused or contributed to this crime. Whether or not the people who did the deed actually hold those beliefs is relevant to your point.
25
@ 24, I don't buy that "two churches" baloney, sorry. That's just more slippery - maybe we could call it "Jesuitical" - prevarication. Right up there with "Oh, no, no, that's not Church doctrine, that's just something Catholics are "allowed" to think - that we teach to Catholic children and talk about from our pulpits". Cynical deniability.
Redemption - the prodigal returned, the lost lamb found - is at once the strength and the weakness of the Church. It's what gives less-than-perfect strivers hope of Heaven, but it's also a hiding-place for possibly self-deluding very bad people.
Look, I was raised as a Catholic, and many of the people I love are Catholics. I do not believe that everything the Catholic Church touches is evil. I do, however, believe that the idea of redemption allows those who do evil to side step the true weight of their misdeeds. It's all about their souls, rather than the harm they have done. Did you catch Cardinal Mahoney last week, talking about humiliation? Not a word, not a thought, about those who have been harmed by his actions. No, it was all about how the humiliation he is suffering right now is good for his soul. That's not just the Catholic hierarchy, that's the weakness at the heart of Christianity.
Redemption - the prodigal returned, the lost lamb found - is at once the strength and the weakness of the Church. It's what gives less-than-perfect strivers hope of Heaven, but it's also a hiding-place for possibly self-deluding very bad people.
Look, I was raised as a Catholic, and many of the people I love are Catholics. I do not believe that everything the Catholic Church touches is evil. I do, however, believe that the idea of redemption allows those who do evil to side step the true weight of their misdeeds. It's all about their souls, rather than the harm they have done. Did you catch Cardinal Mahoney last week, talking about humiliation? Not a word, not a thought, about those who have been harmed by his actions. No, it was all about how the humiliation he is suffering right now is good for his soul. That's not just the Catholic hierarchy, that's the weakness at the heart of Christianity.
26
@16 "(Oh? Don't want to ruin the Church's reputation by turning a priest over to the police? Lock him up in a jail-I-mean-monastery so he can't do it again.)"
You are still suggesting that any acknowledgement or justice be denied to the _victims_ in order to protect the institution. That is not as morally defensible position.
Your insistence that the ultimate goodness and value of the institution trumps the systemic abuse of the innocent is exactly the kind of ethical blindness that produced this vileness.
You are still suggesting that any acknowledgement or justice be denied to the _victims_ in order to protect the institution. That is not as morally defensible position.
Your insistence that the ultimate goodness and value of the institution trumps the systemic abuse of the innocent is exactly the kind of ethical blindness that produced this vileness.
27
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