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Monday, February 25, 2013

N. Carolina Student Censured for "Intimidating" Her Rapist

Posted by on Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 2:45 PM

Face palm:

A college sophomore at the University of North Carolina is being sent to the school’s “Honor Court” and may be expelled for speaking publicly about her rape.

University officials are alleging that Landen Gambill is being “disruptive” or “intimidating” her rapist by going public with her story of sexual assault, despite the fact that Gambill has not even publicly identified her rapist.

Well, fuck. I'm totally speechless.


Comments (91) RSS

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yelahneb 1
This is seriously fucked up. The UNC administration needs the riot act read to them on this one.
Posted by yelahneb on February 25, 2013 at 2:59 PM · Report this
Woman. North Carolina. ...What was the question?

I don't know what the fuck is wrong with Dixie, but even being a male of the species, I'm grateful I don't live there.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on February 25, 2013 at 3:01 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 3
Has this guy been tried and convicted? If not, calling the guy a rapist - even if you're not using his name - is pretty irresponsible. She should take this to the police, if she hasn't already.
Posted by TortoiseTurtle on February 25, 2013 at 3:14 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 4
I should clarify I'm referring to the 'journalists' who 'wrote' the articles. She can accuse the guy all she wants, but she should do it officially.
Posted by TortoiseTurtle on February 25, 2013 at 3:17 PM · Report this
bhowie 6

Oh and @3: Go fuck yourself.
Posted by bhowie on February 25, 2013 at 3:28 PM · Report this
psbirch 8
@3 -- Click through to the Jezebel article, which the article Cienna linked to cites. (…)

Of note:"Landen said that she attended a preliminary Honor Court meeting and asked whether she could have violated the Honor Code simply by saying she was raped; the answer was yes."
Posted by psbirch on February 25, 2013 at 3:38 PM · Report this
venomlash 10
@5: Later in that article, she claims that women who are taken advantage of while drunk are responsible for what happened to them.
"Though the Harvard victim does not remember her actions...she probably participated voluntarily in the usual prelude to intercourse, and probably even in intercourse itself, however woozily."
She also asserts that at least one in ten and up to half of rape reports are false, and tops it off by demonizing sex-positivity.
So, you're quoting a story that says that women who are raped at college are lying, exaggerating sluts that asked for it by getting drunk and leading boys on. Thanks for showing your aesthetically disgusting colors again, Alleged.
Posted by venomlash on February 25, 2013 at 3:43 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 11
@7-8, doesn't saying you were raped kinda imply a rapist? Doesn't that potentially constitute slander if people know who you're talking about? Isn't the school responsible to keep their other student safe from slander? Slander is NOT free speech.

@6, chill, these articles are intentionally vague and inflammatory to get you all riled up. These questions need to be asked.
Posted by TortoiseTurtle on February 25, 2013 at 3:45 PM · Report this
skidmark 12
How are universities supposed to keep rape statistics low if victims keep talking about being raped?
Posted by skidmark on February 25, 2013 at 3:46 PM · Report this
keshmeshi 13

Even if she's not using his name? You really are fucking insane, you know that, right? A woman simply stating she was raped without even pointing the finger at the rapist is some sort of violation to your dumb, crazy ass?

By the way, you stupid motherfucker, the woman is being punished by the school because it's currently embroiled in a lawsuit due to it not taking sexual assault allegations seriously:

Most likely, UNC’s action against the student is revenge. Gambill’s story first came to light as part of a case against the school in which a former assistant dean accused UNC of intentionally under-reporting cases of sexual assault. Gambill was one of three students providing evidence to prove the dean’s case. After it went public, Gambill publicly addressed the failings of UNC’s system, reporting that they “were not only offensive and inappropriate, but they were so victim-blaming… They made it seem like my assault was completely my fault.”

Die in a fire already.
Posted by keshmeshi on February 25, 2013 at 3:48 PM · Report this
It's simple.

If the University allows it, then it acknowledges it.

If it acknowledges it, then it supports it.

If it's true, no problem.

If it's false then both her and the University are subject to liable.

The person being slandered (or accused) can make his lawsuit against both the person and the organization.

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on February 25, 2013 at 3:48 PM · Report this
keshmeshi 15

Doesn't that potentially constitute slander if people know who you're talking about?

Not if it's true, you stupid fuck.
Posted by keshmeshi on February 25, 2013 at 3:49 PM · Report this
treacle 16
"The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. -- U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials. " (link)

And yeah, wow. Not like he might have violated any honor code... Good lord.
Posted by treacle on February 25, 2013 at 3:49 PM · Report this
psbirch 17
@10 Which behavior is mirrored in the case at hand.

From the Daily Tar Hill article that started all of this (…

"""“When I went to report my assault in 2007, I asked an administrator what the process would look like,” Clark said. “Instead, that person told me, ‘Rape is like a football game, Annie. If you look back on the game, and you’re the quarterback and you’re in charge, is there anything that you would have done differently in that situation?’”"""

And then from an earlier article: (…)

"""When the relationship ended, [Landen] said she was met with months of stalking, threats and harassment.

Those actions lead her to press charges with the Honor Court. In her trial, Gambill said she was forced to answer irrelevant and inappropriate questions.

“The woman student said to me, ‘Landen, as a woman, I know that if that had happened to me, I would’ve broken up with him the first time it happened. Will you explain to me why you didn’t?’” she said."""
Posted by psbirch on February 25, 2013 at 3:53 PM · Report this
@keshmeshi --

Right on!
Posted by six shooter on February 25, 2013 at 3:56 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 21
@15, I'd say the guy deserves not to be labeled a rapist unless he can be proven to actually be a rapist, given the stigma associated with an accusation of that kind. I'm not sure why you're so offended at this? She may not say his name, but I'm willing to bet that it's no secret on campus.

Go ahead and re-read that article. There's something they're not saying. It's either terribly researched, written by an 8th grader, or is leaving out large chunks of information to push a certain angle. It reads like shitty propaganda. I'm not saying it isn't true, but I'm not trusting any of this until more information is available.
Posted by TortoiseTurtle on February 25, 2013 at 4:03 PM · Report this
I'm not a lawyer but I watch a lot of television with lawyers as characters. Is the following possible:

If Rapey McRaperson thinks she's libeling or slandering him, let him sue her in a civil court as such.

Her defense -- 'it's true therefore not libel' would then have to stand as evidence in court.

The burden of proof in a civil case is preponderance of the evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt.

But then Rapey McRaperson would have to come out of hiding and admit he's the alleged Big Raper on Campus.

If the right lawyer shouts 'I object" at the right times, learns a valuable life-lesson, and sells the case in closing arguments, she's going to bring BROC down.
Posted by six shooter on February 25, 2013 at 4:05 PM · Report this

The question is, why all the Hamlet "I'll disguise my accusations as a character in a play" shannanigans?
"And thus doth he become so riled he striketh in angereth and exposeth hisself" or some crap like that?

Why not simply make a charge and then go public?

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on February 25, 2013 at 4:14 PM · Report this
Some pretty ignorant male privilege on here........
Posted by Foonken2 on February 25, 2013 at 4:14 PM · Report this
All these people - SROTU, Turtle, anyone else - who are defending the alleged rapist's right to be presumed innocent unless found guilty, and who are claiming that the University is intervening lest it be seen as condoning libel: the linked article clearly states that she is not publicly identifying her alleged assailant.

Basically, you've got three options here: (1) you can arbitrarily disbelieve your only source of information, and insist against the evidence that she is defaming her assailant; (2) you can find actual evidence she is publicly identifying her alleged rapist, and so substantiate your concerns that she is impeding his right to live his life unharassed, a right he retains since he's not (yet?) been found guilty; or (3) you can admit you're full of shit, and possibly even admit you've been engaging in mindless, knee-jerk misogyny.

I'm hoping against hope for (3).
Posted by Warren Terra on February 25, 2013 at 4:19 PM · Report this
psbirch 26
@21 -- If you're looking for more reporting on the subject, I'd suggest you read the original DailyTarHeel articles which the Jezebel and ThinkProgress articles are referring to. Start with this one:… and then hop on to this one:…

Posted by psbirch on February 25, 2013 at 4:21 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 28
@25, "To state a defamation claim, the person claiming defamation need not be mentioned by name." -

Your list of options was not exhaustive. And what in the hell is misogynistic about presuming innocence of someone who is not only NOT convicted, but NOT EVEN accused? At what point does that translate to 'hatred of women'? Talk about knee-jerk reactions!

What of the lynch mob ready to burn all of NC to get at the evil rapist at the first whiff of a semi-accusation? I think your emotions have gotten the better of you.
Posted by TortoiseTurtle on February 25, 2013 at 4:26 PM · Report this
That this is even possible makes me sad...
Posted by ryanmm on February 25, 2013 at 4:26 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 31
@26, thanks for the links. They were informative.

She accused an ex boyfriend of rape, and he was found innocent. I'd imagine accusing a (legally) innocent person of rape publicly - whether by name or be inference - constitutes some form of defamation, so the school is, in fact, protecting one of their students from further (perceived) harm.

Interesting that none of that was in the inflammatory article! No wonder it read so poorly, they were dancing around something they didn't want to say.

@keshmeshi, No need to apologize. I realize you get worked up about this stuff. My privilege has granted me strong reading comprehension, so I did the hard research to get to the bottom of this for you.
Posted by TortoiseTurtle on February 25, 2013 at 4:44 PM · Report this


Say someone or a group of people knew that she only dated one guy during the period in question. They might presume this is the person she's speaking of...and possibly pass that name along to others. At that point the damage is done. The defamed person is well within his right to sue, and sue large, if in fact, the allegations are false.
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on February 25, 2013 at 4:47 PM · Report this
Where did it say her rapist was found not guilty in a court of law?
Posted by six shooter on February 25, 2013 at 4:52 PM · Report this
psbirch 37
@28 I think you're missing the larger point here, along with a little bit of irony -- the complaint that was submitted against UNC alleges that the university is coercing its student body and its faculty into "underreporting cases and violat[ing] the Campus Sexual Assault Victims' Bill of Rights" and other, Federal Laws.

One of the women in the complaint, having spoken publicly on how she believes she was so coerced, is being brought up on Honor Code violations for, effectively, reporting an instance of sexual assault.

So it's not the assault that is at question here -- she brought it to the schools' Honor Court a year ago and it's apparently since been settled -- but rather the school's handling of her case that is at issue. Things like:

- Her school supplied counsel giving her testimony to her parents, even though it was supposed to be sealed
- The Dean of Students' office failing to notify her when her alleged attacker moved into campus housing across the street from her, though the school had said they would notify her if he returned to campus, and ensure that he was housed away from her on campus
- In another instance, an accuser "was never given key information, such as her option to appeal. As her case advanced, she said she was left uninformed of changes and new decisions."

Again -- go read the original reporting on this and stop assuming that it's a case of some random guy not getting a fair shake, because it's not about the guy; it's about the system, and how it's broken.
Posted by psbirch on February 25, 2013 at 5:04 PM · Report this
From the stories in the Daily Tar Heel, it appears that Ms Gambill brought her rape charges to the University Honor Court instead of the police and the criminal justice system.

So I think TortoiseTurtle is overstating it when writing "She accused an ex boyfriend of rape, and he was found innocent." Yes, but in a kangaroo court, not a real one.

We know it was a kangaroo court because she was asked inappropriate and off-topic questions and testimony that was supposed to be kept confidential was shared outside the courtroom. I don't think we can rely on this "court" to determine the accused's guilt.

Also, would TortoiseTurtle feel better about it if the victim had proclaimed "I was raped"? Would that have protected the accused's rights? Would that have provided a warm blanket of protection for the rapist? Should people who were robbed proclaim "I was allegedly robbed!"? Should people who are shot report to the police and the press that they were allegedly shot? Or is rape the only crime that can only be alleged rather than announced?
Posted by Charlie Mas on February 25, 2013 at 5:08 PM · Report this
Nobody was labeling any specific individual a rapist.

The victim was attempting to DESCRIBE the act of being raped by calling it "rape."

Which is perpetrated by a, you know, corporeal being that is a rapist.

How the fuck else are you going to describe it? Like:

"This traumatic thing happened to me. It was unpleasant and without my consent. Somewhere in my body. And I did not do it to myself..."

Leaving everybody to play fifty god damned questions as to what the hell the victim is talking about? Do you think about this shit before you post?
Posted by tkc on February 25, 2013 at 5:14 PM · Report this
I used punctuation that got confused for HTML code. Let me try that last paragraph again.

Also, would TortoiseTurtle feel better about it if the victim had proclaimed "I was *allegedly* raped"? Would that have protected the accused's rights? Would that have provided the warm blanket of protection for the *alleged* rapist that TortoiseTurtle thinks was missing?

I'm also curious about whether this rule extends to other crimes. Should people who were robbed proclaim "I was allegedly robbed!"? Should people who are shot report to the police and the press that they were allegedly shot? Or is rape the only crime that can only be alleged rather than announced?
Posted by Charlie Mas on February 25, 2013 at 5:15 PM · Report this
psbirch 42
@31 & @36

There was no court of law, which is the point. She went to the Honor Court per UNC regulations, which was presided over by a group of Undergraduates (…).

The complaint's claims include whether the training received by the undergraduate body was sufficient for, and whether it is even appropriate for accusations of felony crimes to be heard by, such a body.
Posted by psbirch on February 25, 2013 at 5:16 PM · Report this
As a UNC alum, a huge underlying problem here is the overreach of the honor court system.

Criminal cases need to be handled by the proper authorities, not undergrads polishing their law school applications. Let the honor court deal with germane issues like academic dishonesty or imposing additional university disciplinary action once guilt has been established in the legal system (e.g., expelling a student who has been convicted of raping another in a court of law).
Posted by decidedlyodd on February 25, 2013 at 5:17 PM · Report this
Jessica 44
Yeah, because convicted rapists or accused rapists are never forgiven for their actions and accepted by society. Just look at those outcasts Mike Tyson, Ben Roethlisberger, and Roman Polanski. They definitely have had their lives absolutely ruined and live in obscure poverty.
Posted by Jessica on February 25, 2013 at 5:19 PM · Report this
psbirch 45
@39 -- I would encourage you to read the original reporting (…). From that article:

"""After her trial last year, Gambill said her accused attacker voluntarily withdrew from UNC. She said [Dean of Students Jonathan] Sauls promised that if the student returned, Sauls would tell her and ensure the student lived as far from her as possible.

In January, Gambill said her parents called Sauls to check in — only to find that her accused attacker was returning to campus and would be living in the residence hall across the street from hers.

“It betrayed my trust and it’s put my safety in danger,” Gambill said. “If my parents hadn’t called, I would’ve shown up this semester and seen my rapist walking around campus.”"""
Posted by psbirch on February 25, 2013 at 5:20 PM · Report this
curtisp 46
#11 So dumbass if someone punched you in the face but you had no witnesses should you forever remain silent? Piss off. People who commit crimes against us do not deserve our silence even if we cannot prove them guilty in a court of law. Like my neighbor who kicked in the back door. No honey I'm not going to stop telling my neighbors they did it. I saw them do it and I'm talking sweets. If worthless little theives don't like it they can attempt to sue me but no official institution has the right to silence me. Again...on behalf of all crime victims...PISS OFF. You are an asshole. So sue me asshole.
Posted by curtisp on February 25, 2013 at 5:24 PM · Report this
seandr 47
@45: Also this: "the defendant was found not guilty"
Posted by seandr on February 25, 2013 at 5:26 PM · Report this

The Roman Polanski rape case is especially sickening. Did you see a few years ago when a bunch of "stars" signed a petition to a european court to deny extradition of Polanski to the US? Truly sickening. Why is forcible rape not a life sentence? I want to see these monsters go away forever. UNC is making a HUGE mistake.
Posted by scratchmaster joe on February 25, 2013 at 5:32 PM · Report this
Ok, hold on...

She had endured months of sexual abuse from a long-term boyfriend.…

I'm sorry, but put me in the assoholic do you endure "months" of abuse unless Hannibal Lector has you in a pit in the basement of the chem building?

And, so, it's a long term relationship and then it turns to abuse? Did she ever mention this to the boyfriend or did she leave it in a half-half state and then one night decide (before telling him) that she no longer wanted the relationship and call it rape.

Look, rape is terrible. But is this what you are saying it is? It sounds fishy to me.…

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on February 25, 2013 at 5:34 PM · Report this
Clara T 54
Why doesn't the UNC honor court immeadiately refer all accusations of sexual assault to local police? Remind me to enroll in UNC before I decide to rob a bank or murder someone ....
Posted by Clara T on February 25, 2013 at 5:41 PM · Report this
seandr 55
@24: Some pretty ignorant male privilege on here........

It's not privilege, it's fear.

There was a study that did an independent review of thousands of rape cases, finding that 25% of accusations were provably true, 8% of accusations were provably false, and the rest had insufficient corroboratory evidence to make a determination either way. That suggests the percentage of false accusations is between 8% and 75%, likely somewhere in between.

I have no sympathy for rapists. If I ever stumbled upon a rape in progress, I would likely beat the man to death. And yet, when I read the rage and assumptions of guilt in these comments, it's conjures up scenarios in my imagination that terrify me.
Posted by seandr on February 25, 2013 at 5:42 PM · Report this
Clara T 57
And why doesn't my iPhone know how to spell immediately?
Posted by Clara T on February 25, 2013 at 5:43 PM · Report this
seandr 58
@2: Woman. North Carolina. ...What was the question?

Also located in North Carolina - the Duke La Crosse Team.
Posted by seandr on February 25, 2013 at 5:45 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 62
@ 55, another way to say that is "between 25% and 92% of rape accusations are true." Given our culture and the sad reality of how common stories like these are, I'd say that the number of actual rapes is high and false accusations are low.
Posted by Matt from Denver on February 25, 2013 at 6:00 PM · Report this
@55: citation please.
Posted by jt on February 25, 2013 at 6:22 PM · Report this
Oh, man, I love how the troll thinks that being in a relationship means rape isn't really rape because there was consent at some point. Hey, troll, as with murder and most other egregious crimes, rapists are almost always known to their victims. Additionally, women do find themselves trapped in abusive relationships because it becomes a cyclical behavioural pattern. Is there a pathological deterministic aspect to it (ie, a girl who grows up seeing her mother abused is likely to enter in to a similar relationship- as a man is likely to abuse a woman if he had a similar example) - absolutely, but many more women I suspect tolerate this kind of abuse, and never go further than divorce to find redress.

Incidentally, because of trash like you, I personally feel that the court system might not support me in my defense against a rapist, so I'm prepared to defend myself physically at any cost should such a situation arise.
Posted by stilettov on February 25, 2013 at 6:40 PM · Report this
seandr 70
@65: The data are from an ongoing study being conducted by End Violence Against Women International.

I came across it in this Seattle Weekly article on the subject, which is worth the read. It appears my memory of the percentage of false accusations was off by 1 - as of 2009, it was 7% rather than 8%. I think the 8% number was from an FBI study.

You're going to have to google for the original research report to verify my recollection of the 25% figure, and to see whether they've updated these figures with data from the past 3 years.

@Cienna: You might find this interesting - in cases where false accusers have no discernible motive, psychologists have drawn parallels with Münchausen syndrome, which as you know involves (mostly) women faking illnesses such as cancer.

Also, you forgot the word "alleged" or "acquitted" in the title of your post.
Posted by seandr on February 25, 2013 at 7:01 PM · Report this
A committee "versed" in "campus rape politics" (wtf?) is not a legal proceeding, and can just as well be influenced by a university whose image is at stake. When any guy sticks his cock in you without your permission, it's rape regardless of whether you've been married 20 years or not. For someone who purportedly is using "rape politics" to sabotage another person, this woman appears to be either remarkably inept, or behaving as an intimidated person would. Every single instance of assault I can think of that has occurred to me or my friends has started first with an assumption of trust. Like pulling off a condom mid-coitus, just because I let you into my apartment doesn't mean you can steal my tequila. That guy ended up walking through a party of a hundred people to go get his clothes out of the wet parking lot, and I haven't seen him around since. My best friend woke up from a nap on a couch to find a male friend of hers jerking off all over her, and has had to endure the kind of division that happens between all mutual friends. She also was unfairly dismissed from her job after a coworker assaulted her at a party. Someone she had known on a long-term basis. Moral of the story: TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT, YOU IGNORANT SHIT FOR BRAINS.

Also, I neither carry nor need a gun. I'm still waiting for key-chain sized tasers, because that's just less messy for everyone, but for now I content myself with alternatives. I was never assaulted in a long term relationship until I was. A court of law, had I chosen to press the issue, would have agreed with me. And I could give less of a fuck what any pissant bunch of academic Dixie fucking white trash college kids and administrators think. Fuck all that noise, she should be taking the entire fucking university to court for slander.

Posted by stilettov on February 25, 2013 at 7:02 PM · Report this
She should get in touch with these people:
And sue the shit out of UNC.
Posted by moosefan on February 25, 2013 at 7:08 PM · Report this
@69 - you are completely right. You report one instance of sexual assault, and the world will make you afraid to do it again, because it will probably be a person known by you, and you do endure a dissection or examination of your experience, fear, and physical self that is basically not only the expectation that you relive your traumatic experience in every particular, but are forced to try and defend that it was legitimately traumatic.

It is hardest where friends are involved, friends who are supposed to trust you and in whom you are supposed to be able to trust, and because they are the most likely, even when supportive, to not want it to be true that one of their friends is a sexual predator.

Posted by stilettov on February 25, 2013 at 7:08 PM · Report this
Man, troll got rejected by a feminist BIG time. Or wait, perhaps cut loose is more accurate, because apparently she stuck around long enough for him to learn the nomenclature. Or maybe he's just fucking obsessed by feminist ideas because he feels threatened by them.

Or maybe he just argues about it online anonymously between WoW sessions, and posting to MRA forums, because no self respecting woman would kick him to get a bug off her shoe.
Posted by stilettov on February 25, 2013 at 7:15 PM · Report this
uh, actually, it is rape, because as soon as something becomes non-consensual, regardless of whether you're too drunk to notice, it becomes rape. That's the entire idea, non-consensual.

But in deference to the uselessness of trying to make myself stupid enough to understand stupid people, alas, you have defeated me with your brilliant man logic and witty, biting remarks. That's okay. You're not actually real. You're just a parody of the terrified, shivering, pathetic rotten worm feast that is the anonymous troll. And I almost feel sorry for you, if I wasn't almost certain that you're some overweight libertarian mealy mouthed little fuck who couldn't stand behind his ideas and intimidate women in real life, and so he has to do it on the internet in order to get that tiny little dopamine spike that feeds your illusion of self importance.

Woe is me. However shall my ego recover. And you're probably too ugly to rape.
Posted by stilettov on February 25, 2013 at 7:23 PM · Report this
@77 I'm pretty sure it was because the men stupidly believed they were human, not that the women made the mistake of existing and believing they had the right to be safe.
Posted by stilettov on February 25, 2013 at 7:24 PM · Report this
I hate victim blamers. It is not the job of a victim to behave in a specific way, like to scream, or run. Violence paralyzes most people.

Very few of us have had enough (unfortunate) experience with violence to handle it efficiently. As soon as it is clear, someone says no, man or woman, at that point it is indeed rape. Passed out? Rape. Attempting to physically resist? Rape. A person can control someone so tightly that they are a prisoner, even if they could technically leave, their psyche wont allow it. That does happen. Abuse is a hard thing to break free of.

I hate victim blaming, the sheer scale of the problem makes me think we need to replace this victim blaming phenomena with "potential-victim training". I don't mean simple kicks to the nutz and other mediocre techniques. I mean an equalizer, real fight training, against large tough men, being armed and training regularly, pepper spray, a knife.

These mean nothing without proper training and regular practice. If you are not injured, you are not really being trained. Any legitimate fight training involves being hurt, feeling pain. I'm not saying "why didn't you do this or that!" to a victim, I'm saying, rape is so prevalent, that it is clear that we, as a society, need to emphasize equalizing the size differential between men and women. I was recently reminded while playfully wrestling with a 130 pound woman, that I outweighed her by 100 pounds and could easily bench press her. I always thought of us as physical equals, her being so damned tough.

As a feminist, my entire life I have viewed women as my equal in every way, and was confused why they didn't play football with me, why wrestling was only allowed for girls starting circa 1995. It has been extremely difficult to come to terms with the fact that men are responsible for the vast majority of harm done to women. I hate that. I don't want it to be true. But there is no point in denying it, it is simply true. It is also simply true that we men are at least 30% stronger than women on average, I also hate that.

I detest violence, but I will help anyone in danger, at my own life's cost, if need be. But I wish we would train our girls growing up in real fighting techniques. If it is a "self-defense" class, that usually means it is a lighter form of defense. That is not what I recommend. I mean fight training. Hand to hand combat, weapons combat, and eventually, advanced hand to hand combate training. We can equalize the physical differential through fight and weapon training. I hope that someday we do.

If I have children, one of the few things that will not be up to them (I believe in allowing kids to choose their path), is a minimum of five years of fight training, and two years of advanced hand to hand combat training. After that, if they want to be a janitor, artist, or POTUS, I will support them in whatever makes them happy. Even if they choose to be a true pacifist. I just want to give them the chance to defeat a determined opponent, attacker, especially a rapist.

Lets train our girls to kick guys asses! I know it can be done. I have seen a small woman beat the hell out of a much larger man (he was a fighter too). It was beautiful. Trust me, she was within her legal right to issue that beat down.

Call me crazy, but I'm just trying to equalize the difference.
Posted by scratchmaster joe on February 25, 2013 at 8:39 PM · Report this
The defendant was found not guilty by an Honor Court. Campus authorities should handle petty thefts and public drunkenness. They should not handle felonies. That they are allowed to is unfathomable to me.

Seandr: This is rape culture, right here. You're participating in it.
Posted by clashfan on February 25, 2013 at 10:28 PM · Report this
TVDinner 86
Did you hear that, Seandr? "This is rape culture, right here. You're participating in it."

Posted by TVDinner http:// on February 25, 2013 at 10:57 PM · Report this
it never ceases to amaze me, or rather, amuse me, when my actions somehow are implied to have been irresponsible and therefore make me responsible for what someone else chose to do. It's like I was by myself! Yes, sometimes I get really drunk and I make bad judgement, but choosing not to use protection isn't one of them. My friend choosing to strengthen my drunk with everclear instead of rum and failing to mention it, that wasn't my decision. So if someone is altering a decision I've made, concerning my body and health, then they're violating my free will. This is where the law is beautiful. It doesn't care that heroin is bad for you, because it's not a moral question, but a legal one: possessing or selling it is illegal because possessing or selling it is illegal and exactly zero fucks are given about whether you've become a shriveled up desiccated wreck. So if you're a hooker, and you get raped, and someone leaves some money next to your beaten body, that's still rape. It doesn't matter that you were plying an illegal trade that replicated those exact functions OR that you happened to be position in such a way that it was very likely to happen, it still wasn't consensual.

I just wanted that to be clear for anyone else who was having trouble keeping up, since I know troll is probably busy getting it on with his Braveheart poster.I don't have a problem relating personal experiences, since I think if more of us did, there would be less of a stigma, and less fear about confronting assailants in open court.

Oh, and 83@ you seem to fail to grasp the basic concept of how rape works. Well, let me tell you, "rape" is the french word for "shred" and having something forcibly shoved into your vagina not only causes damage, it also leaves a huge amount of trace evidence. So if a woman or a girl can feel safe in being able to immediately access emergency services, has the confidence to do that (which of course must be imparted by an education system that is mandated to talk about boy parts and girl parts) then just maybe it would be a little easier to see that justice is done. But since your solution is "she could be destroying someone's life!!111!" I have this to say- if in your view a guy's image and self esteem is more important than the health of not just the person he is accused of assaulting, but other potential victims, and indeed, public safety, then you deserve this wrath, and you deserve to be afraid of it for the rest of your life. Enjoy.
Posted by stilettov on February 25, 2013 at 11:44 PM · Report this
King Rat 88
The University administration claims it isn't behind the Honor Court charge against Gambill:…

She says she doesn't believe them. They may be correct though, and it is the ex-boyfriend/alleged rapist who is behind the complaint. In any case, there is a definite over-reach by the student prosecutors here. This is something they shouldn't be touching, as they do not have the experience or supervision to do so.
Posted by King Rat on February 26, 2013 at 12:27 AM · Report this
Methinks the TT doth protest too much...
Posted by MemeGene on February 26, 2013 at 3:37 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 91
It's frustrating that the victim didn't report the rape to the police, or that a "college honor court" would accept a sexual assault case rather than having the victim go to the police. An honor court cannot put a rapist behind bars, and that will lead to more rapes. Also, without a police report, and investigation, there is absolutely no evidence to back the victim's allegations. She doesn't have much of a legal leg to stand on. It's a "he said she said"situation, and our legal system is based on the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 26, 2013 at 7:24 AM · Report this
@85 crimes should be handled by the police ...honor courts belong to the 20s and 30s.

the quickest way to make adifference is for UNC alumni to stop donating to unc. and to start demanding change,

and for customers of companies who fund research at UNC or sponsor their shitty sporty events to demand they support women on campus and that Unc joins the 21st century.
Posted by Cassette tape fan on February 26, 2013 at 7:33 AM · Report this
@91, I'm not sure about UNC, but many colleges have jurisdiction over crimes that occur on their campuses. It's a big problem, especially when dealing with campus rapes.
Posted by clashfan on February 26, 2013 at 9:02 AM · Report this
Fenrox 96
Best thing ever you mean, this will allow a massive spotlight and forcibly change the school position, which is obviously the problem. Other schools can take note. Remember bigots, always overextend!
Posted by Fenrox on February 26, 2013 at 9:09 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 98
95, A student run honor court with absolutely no power to criminality convict a rapist has jurisdiction over any actual body of law.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 26, 2013 at 9:34 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 99
98, that should say "has NO jurisdiction"
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 26, 2013 at 9:39 AM · Report this
Clara T 100
So have we arrived at no one has been acquitted in any real sense, she's alleging rape, she is allowed to and should be encouraged to allege rape if she believes she's been raped, the Uni saying otherwise is immoral and probably illegal, if her allegation is a malicious fabrication she should be responsible for that, and if that is the unlikely case the way the Uni is behaving is still wrong? At any rate "she might be mentally ill and making things up," while possible, is not at all a reasonable argument in support of a government institution trying to suppress her expression.
Posted by Clara T on February 26, 2013 at 10:01 AM · Report this
Clara T 101
I'm curious too about what some of the more enraged posters think about a previous suggestion that the word "alleged" ought to have been used in the OP. In a flat sense that's the precise truth of the matter? Or is the term itself a rhetorical tool of the "rape culture"?
Posted by Clara T on February 26, 2013 at 10:06 AM · Report this
psbirch 102

Apologies for repeating myself here -- "Landen said that she attended a preliminary Honor Court meeting and asked whether she could have violated the Honor Code simply by saying she was raped; the answer was yes." (…)

The issue here is not the whys and wherefores of any specific incident, but rather the school's system of reaction to sexual assault itself. The irony here is the school's Honor Court being used as a tool to silence a woman who is attempting to speak up for herself and for at least 60-odd others who believe they have been ill-served by the school's treatment of sexual assault.

To everyone who is trying to dismiss this woman's story as a "he said / she said" affair, please be aware that that's not what Landen's up on Honor Code violations for. If anything, it's a case of "She Said / No, You can't say that."

Posted by psbirch on February 26, 2013 at 10:38 AM · Report this
@101 --

The administration and the school newspaper and all other second parties probably should use "alleged" before "rapist."

I don't care if the woman who claims to have been raped skips the word. If someone raped me, I'd be pretty upset if you insisted I call the guy who raped me my "alleged rapist" when I know for a fucking fact that he is just a plain old rapist responsible for raping me.
Posted by six shooter on February 26, 2013 at 11:22 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 105
We are talking about an incident that was never reported to the police, so there was no investigation, or evidence gathered. Without any of that, no criminal charges were filed. The accused was not indicated, tried, or convicted by a court of law.

She chose instead to bring the matter to the student honor court, (A student run court should not have been allowed to take up the case, and since has been forbidden to do so from now on.) and they found the accused not guilty. The body before which she chose to present her case found her accusations not believable.

The accused but acquitted "defendant" filed a complaint against her for her publicly made, but unsupportable (due to the fact that a rape was never reported to, or investigated by the police.) accusations. Nobody but she and the man she accused knows what actually happened, and the rule of law is innocent until proven guilty.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 26, 2013 at 11:44 AM · Report this
Wait, she hasn't publicly ID'd the rapist? Then what's the slander? The only possible complaint would be that she's lying and trying to paint an honest man as a rapist, but that only works if people know who she means. Is it that she's accusing the administration about being lax with security?

@104 Agreed. Anyone who has personally witnessed the event does not have to say "alleged." Only people who are quoting second and thirdhand do.
Posted by DRF on February 26, 2013 at 11:45 AM · Report this
psbirch 107
Again, y'all are missing the point -- As the original reporting notes: "Gambill says that when she reported the assault to the university last spring, she was told to go through the Honor Court."

The failure of the Honor Court is one of the components of the complaint filed, which alleges that "the university violated federal laws by dismissing reports of sexual assault, failing to adequately train employees in offering support for victims and downplaying rape statistics."
Posted by psbirch on February 26, 2013 at 12:10 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 108
106, what if someone known by your family and friends to be your ex-partner comes to your community publicly claiming that an ex-partner is a child molester, but does not use your name? Should you have no recourse?
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 26, 2013 at 12:13 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 109
107, If the college stopped her from reporting the alleged rape from the police then absolutely they should be held accountable.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 26, 2013 at 12:30 PM · Report this
Ok, it was just made clear to me by my 130 pound woman wrestling partner that women do not need or want another man telling them what to do or how to keep themselves safe. She told me to publicly speak (to men) about how despicable rape is and how we need to asure it doesn't happen.

Message received. Sorry if I offended anyone. I just hate victim blaming, so I want to teach people how to fight before they become victims. Apparently, I didn't invent that.

I think rapists are born, that no discussion will make someone capable of rape not capable of rape, that it is a leftover instinct from our past, that you have or don't have (like a bird that cannot fly anymore...), but my wrestling partner says that is not true, and that I have to tell men not to rape. I disagree, but since I have no proof or the scientific background to understand those issues, I will go ahead and tell men and my boys, should I ever have any, not to rape anyway, just to make sure. Sorry again.
Posted by scratchmaster joe on February 26, 2013 at 1:05 PM · Report this
psbirch 113
@112 Note it's the studies and findings of the CDC, not some mythical "Campus Rape Industry," that's the origins of the "rape epidemic' you're so quick to dismiss.… cites that "Each year, about 1 in 20 college women are sexually assaulted." In a typical 4-year degree course, that comes to a roughly 20% change of a woman being assaulted during her undergraduate program. Taking into account graduate studies, and an assertion that some portion of sexual assaults go un-reported, you arrive at the not unreasonable figure of 1-in-4 women being assaulted during the course of their post-secondary education.
Posted by psbirch on February 26, 2013 at 3:00 PM · Report this
psbirch 118
@114 That's weaksauce, and you know it.… cites the a report of 18.3% of women "reported experiencing rape at some time in their lives" and "19%
experienced attempted or completed sexual assault since entering college" -- check the link for the citations of the studies.

The data is there if you want to look for it.
Posted by psbirch on February 26, 2013 at 5:19 PM · Report this
UNC seems much more concerned with prosecuting the victim than the rapist. All the people on this thread who are so terribly worried about the slander of a poor innocent alleged rapist who has NOT been publicly named by the victim are enabling misogyny. The chances that UNC would be held liable for not punishing the victim's "slander" of her alleged rapist are next to none. Show me one case where a University was held liable for a slander committed by a student.
Posted by ML77 on February 26, 2013 at 10:08 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 120
119, Um, wow. You kind of just made up your own narrative for this story didn't you? None of what you just wrote is accurate. It's the student honor court censuring the female student not the college. She did not report a rape to the police, so there no investigation or evidence that a rape occurred. The man was not charged, tried, nor convicted.

Instead, she took her complaint to the student honor court, where, because of the total lack of evidence presented, the man was found not guilty. It is a he said she said situation, and one of the founding principles of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty. A student court should never have been allowed to hear this case. Even if there was indisputable evidence that a rape occurred, they can't put a rapist in jail. Hence he would be on the loose to rape again.

After not getting the verdict she wanted, and the student court found her accusations not believable, she proceeded to publicly state that her ex-boyfriend, who's still on campus raped her. If someone known by your family and friends to be your ex came into your community and accused an unnamed ex, who still lives in your community of child molestation, how would you respond? In this case, the man filed a complaint to the honor court against her. Since she admitted that she was publicly accusing him without any evidence to back her claim, she was found guilty.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 27, 2013 at 6:17 AM · Report this
Since she admitted that she was publicly accusing him without any evidence to back her claim, she was found guilty.

Without any evidence?

You mean except for her memories, trauma and all of the circumstantial evidence one would expect to find following a crime.

Here, let me fix that for you:
She went to the honor court expecting to find students well trained in how to handle sexual assault cases and instead found:

a school who at best strongly-discouraged her from complaining in the first place
an honor court more interested in discrediting her than pursuing the truth
promises then lies from her supposed allies regarding how she would be treated in the future
a whole hot mess of people who can't even agree on whether they received a day or an hour of training on the school's (at the time nonexistent) sexual harassment policy

I would hesitate before glibly tossing out "after not getting the verdict she wanted" and instead try replacing it with "after being treated really poorly by a system that should have at the very least been impartial."

Then maybe decide if you believe she has the right to complain.
Posted by six shooter on February 27, 2013 at 6:45 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 123
122, There was no evidence, just her claims. Unless you'very found a way to extract memories of others and play them back for a court, there's no way to prove her accusations. What circumstantial evidence was presented to the court?
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 27, 2013 at 7:00 AM · Report this
@21: You can't get a slander charge off of assumptions that "everybody on campus will know who she's talking about" because YOU CAN'T READ MINDS AND HAVE NO IDEA WHAT PEOPLE ON CAMPUS ARE THINKING.

Now stop white-knighting rapists, you sick fuck.
Posted by treehugger on February 27, 2013 at 8:27 AM · Report this

Sociopaths and psychopaths are born, and there is nothing to be done for that, but I don't think this represents the average rapist (but like you I don't have any sociological data).

What we do know is that rape is common, and it can't be all psychopaths doing all that raping. Somehow, people are getting the notion that if they are turned on they are owed sex, if the girl is drunk or showing cleavage, it's her own damn fault anyway.

When have guys putting up videos calling themselves the "Rape Crew" and bragging about exploits, laughing about rape victims, and frats picketing outside a sorority with signs that say "no means yes, yes means anal" and yes, as a matter of fact, it is necessary to tell men not to rape, not to put up with slut shaming and rape culture.

If for no other reason than it would actually help their cause of getting laid. My experience with casual sex in college was pretty awful. Pulled off condoms, surprise anal, being made fun of and harassed - if that's how ya'll want to have it you can just choke on your cortisol already

Posted by Zbot on February 27, 2013 at 10:21 AM · Report this
Space Sausage 128
there are so many false rape accusers out there. the accused deserve to have privacy until a court of law and due process may convict such a person. men (and women) need to be protected from the significant number of false accusers out there. sorry, but that's the reality.
Posted by Space Sausage on February 27, 2013 at 12:28 PM · Report this
psbirch 129
@128 Not as many ans you might think, Sausage:…
Posted by psbirch on February 27, 2013 at 12:49 PM · Report this
Space Sausage 130
@129 I've seen that before. Besides the stats on that being questionable, the point still remains that many people's lives will be ruined by false accusers. MANY. There is no excuse to ruin people's lives without due process.
Posted by Space Sausage on February 27, 2013 at 2:36 PM · Report this
@Scratchmaster Joe: The "tell men not to rape" logic is BS, for the same reason that saying "swiper no swiping" hasn't stopped real-world theft.

On the other hand, the logic that women should devote the time and energy necessary to ninja their way out of rape is even more BS. Not only is it impractical when someone is drugged or the assailant is armed, but living in that state of fear is exhausting.

People should learn to speak up when their boundaries are crossed. People should learn to listen when their partners speak up. That's the best real-world solution you can expect to get.

False rape accusations: Most of the time they're used as character assassination, and the accuser doesn't want to see a courtroom where they'll have to present evidence. I'm not seeing much character assassination here, so much as people being upset at the university's system. Gambill is just one of many people upset with them, and one of the few willing to go public.

Overall: This is why I hate rape discussions. It's an accusation that the honor court is messed up, that the victim's rights (such as sealed testimony) were not respected, and that the university is now trying to intimidate her. These are the real issues. But because rape happens to be tangential to the story, everything else becomes forgotten as this becomes a one-issue discussion.
Posted by ChiTodd on February 27, 2013 at 5:27 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore (and others): Taking a rape charge to the Honor Court was, in fact, procedure. At the time, there was an 'interim policy' while UNC got their shit together and wrote a real policy.…

UNC has a full-fledged police department, complete with investigators and specialized teams. There are over 50 armed officers.

I have no idea what they do if they catch a rapist (or anyone committing a violent felony).
Posted by clashfan on February 27, 2013 at 8:52 PM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 134
133, She did not report a rape to the UNC Police, or any other police department. Had she done so, the case would have been properly investigated, evidence gathered, real criminal charges filed if the evidence showed that a rape had happened, and a trial would have been held in a real court of law. A student honor court has absolutely no power to criminally convict or jail a rapist, and has no jurisdiction over a real court of law.

Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 28, 2013 at 4:15 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 135
She apparently sought relief through the school rather than filing a police report. Gambill has not responded to ABC News' requests for comment.…

There was no police investigation and no evidence that a rape occurred. It's a "he said-she said" situation. The student court found her accusations not believable due to the fact that she presented absolutely no evidence, and him not guilty.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 28, 2013 at 6:06 AM · Report this
I'm confused. Was she raped or not?
Posted by Keey on February 28, 2013 at 7:03 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 137
Only the accuser, and the accused know. There is absolutely no evidence to back her accusations. One of the founding principles of our legal system is innocent until proven guilty.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 28, 2013 at 9:15 AM · Report this

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