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News & ArtsMonday, February 25, 2013
Guns 2,282 Gun Related Deaths Since Newtown
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 6:16 PM
As Chicago Fan has pointed out, the information on gun violence in the USA is not as strong as it should be because the NRA has been conducting a war on the facts. But just a little research on the matter by Slate and @GunDeaths has revealed the unbelievable size of the monster we face everyday in this country. An interactive map posted on Slate's site names 2,282 individuals who have been killed by guns since the Newtown massacre. This is just staggering. It's half of all American deaths during the entire Iraq War. That war lasted 8 years. Newtown happened two months ago. It's just boggles the mind like nothing else.
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BUT: the cat's out of the bag, the number is decreasing every year, suicides don't count, that solution won't work, freedom, tyranny, libs want to ban all guns, etc.
here's a folksy saying to make you forget those numbers, charles: "guns are like parachutes: if you need one & you don't have it, you'll never need one again". my second cousin put that up on FB!
here's a folksy saying to make you forget those numbers, charles: "guns are like parachutes: if you need one & you don't have it, you'll never need one again". my second cousin put that up on FB!
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If only those 2,262 people had been armed...
I want to follow it up with "said no one, ever," but we all know better.
I want to follow it up with "said no one, ever," but we all know better.
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Charles,
Indeed, it is a national tragedy. Those are horrific numbers. But, I'm gonna part with CF. The NRA isn't the problem. It's the culture. For the record, I'm not defending the NRA nor am I a member. I have never owned a firearm. But this kind of carnage is intolerable. I simply don't know what causes it in such high numbers in the USA. Mindboggling!
Indeed, it is a national tragedy. Those are horrific numbers. But, I'm gonna part with CF. The NRA isn't the problem. It's the culture. For the record, I'm not defending the NRA nor am I a member. I have never owned a firearm. But this kind of carnage is intolerable. I simply don't know what causes it in such high numbers in the USA. Mindboggling!
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The total number of Iraq war casualties is debated, but the trusted sources range from over 900,000 to over 1.2 million.
The 4800 casualties is US troops only.
fyi.
The 4800 casualties is US troops only.
fyi.
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Will in Seattle is a convicted, level 3 sex offender who drugged and raped the female friends of his kid.
Why no one has said anything before baffles me.
Why no one has said anything before baffles me.
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31,672: All firearm deaths in the United States in 2010.
308,745,538: United States population in 2010.
0.010258285902742342: Percentage of population.
903: All firearm deaths in Germany in 2010.
82,329,758: Germany population in 2010.
0.0010968087626347693: Percentage of population.
Please tell me if my math is wrong. I'm just interested in numbers right now, I mean no offense. I advocate no position. Only relevant data for consideration as to the magnitude of the problem. I await convincing. My mind is open.
308,745,538: United States population in 2010.
0.010258285902742342: Percentage of population.
903: All firearm deaths in Germany in 2010.
82,329,758: Germany population in 2010.
0.0010968087626347693: Percentage of population.
Please tell me if my math is wrong. I'm just interested in numbers right now, I mean no offense. I advocate no position. Only relevant data for consideration as to the magnitude of the problem. I await convincing. My mind is open.
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@10 nobody cares. They are scared little queers that have confused culture with an obsession with their own genitals. This makes them not only a living stereotype of faggots, but also completely hostile to anything that remotely resembles a traditional American life.
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# 8
You are a coward. Use your name or moniker, or something that would hold you accountable for your disgusting words. I challenge you. What is your preference? Boxing? Debate? MMA? Perhaps you could prove you are not the exact oposite of a hero. Any legal, sanctioned fight or debate, your choice, I demand satisfaction. Failure to accept is only further proof of your cowardice. Coward. Racist. An unloveable Failure. That is who you are. Never forget that.
You are a coward. Use your name or moniker, or something that would hold you accountable for your disgusting words. I challenge you. What is your preference? Boxing? Debate? MMA? Perhaps you could prove you are not the exact oposite of a hero. Any legal, sanctioned fight or debate, your choice, I demand satisfaction. Failure to accept is only further proof of your cowardice. Coward. Racist. An unloveable Failure. That is who you are. Never forget that.
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the combatant deaths in Iraq can at least be said to have been experienced by adults who chose to enter a theater of war. the same cannot be said of the civilians, many of whom are children, who died simply by virtue of having been born in a country that refuses to restrict gun sales.
Many of those who died were not children. Many were elderly. many were schoolteachers. Many were office workers. Many were average, ordinary, working class people like you and I, simply going about their day. Many were teenagers and many, more sickeningly, were far younger.
I say sickeningly because I cannot suppress the nausea I feel upon hearing of a child killing another child because of an accidental discharge. All too common is the story of a pre-teen grabbing a weapon and playing with it as if it were a toy, to tragic consequences. A parent who keeps loaded firearms in their house is at best crazy, and at worst unfit to raise a child.
And what other than psychopathic can we call Mr Zimmerman, or those who raised money in his defense after he slaughtered Treyvon Martin prior to that young man ever reaching adulthood?
Did you know that the entire world thinks we're nuts? Probably the only developed society more in love with guns would be Serbia. Given their recent reputation internationally, I find it discomfiting to be in their company.
Many of those who died were not children. Many were elderly. many were schoolteachers. Many were office workers. Many were average, ordinary, working class people like you and I, simply going about their day. Many were teenagers and many, more sickeningly, were far younger.
I say sickeningly because I cannot suppress the nausea I feel upon hearing of a child killing another child because of an accidental discharge. All too common is the story of a pre-teen grabbing a weapon and playing with it as if it were a toy, to tragic consequences. A parent who keeps loaded firearms in their house is at best crazy, and at worst unfit to raise a child.
And what other than psychopathic can we call Mr Zimmerman, or those who raised money in his defense after he slaughtered Treyvon Martin prior to that young man ever reaching adulthood?
Did you know that the entire world thinks we're nuts? Probably the only developed society more in love with guns would be Serbia. Given their recent reputation internationally, I find it discomfiting to be in their company.
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@11
You are pathetic. Scared? You'd know. I challenge you too, a fight, a debate, boxing, MMA, whatever your choice, intellectual or physical. My only condition, that it be a sanctioned, legal fight. Try using your name if you want to prove you are not the coward I believe you to be. You could easily find who I am using my moniker and google.
You are a sad and lonely person. Does your mother even love you? I feel sorry for your family. May the world bless the rest of us by preventing you from spreading your vile seed. Coward.
You are pathetic. Scared? You'd know. I challenge you too, a fight, a debate, boxing, MMA, whatever your choice, intellectual or physical. My only condition, that it be a sanctioned, legal fight. Try using your name if you want to prove you are not the coward I believe you to be. You could easily find who I am using my moniker and google.
You are a sad and lonely person. Does your mother even love you? I feel sorry for your family. May the world bless the rest of us by preventing you from spreading your vile seed. Coward.
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The stranger pulled my comment simply for stating the obvious. 90% of these deaths are young black men. Since I'm being honest by saying the truth, that without this population, we would have a much lower gun death rate,
The irony that muddles posted this article speaks volume.
The irony that muddles posted this article speaks volume.
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I feel like a broken record, but the fact is that the majority of gun related violence will not be impacted by any of the currently proposed legislature.
First, the majority of firearms related crime is by cheap handguns. If you want to have an impact on firearm related violence you need to do something about cheap handguns.
Second, the vast majority of firearms related crime is in areas with high levels of income inequality and/or drug related issues. If you really want to have an impact on firearm related violence, you need to address the problem of poor people in the USA and you need to address the failure of the War on Drugs.
There are over 300 million firearms in the country (probably closer to 350 million now). Areas that have higher levels of firearm ownership do not, in fact, have higher levels of firearm related crime than areas with lower levels of firearm ownership. Areas that have greater levels of income inequality, regardless of current gun-control-laws have greater levels of overall crime and, as a result, greater levels of firearms related crime.
First, the majority of firearms related crime is by cheap handguns. If you want to have an impact on firearm related violence you need to do something about cheap handguns.
Second, the vast majority of firearms related crime is in areas with high levels of income inequality and/or drug related issues. If you really want to have an impact on firearm related violence, you need to address the problem of poor people in the USA and you need to address the failure of the War on Drugs.
There are over 300 million firearms in the country (probably closer to 350 million now). Areas that have higher levels of firearm ownership do not, in fact, have higher levels of firearm related crime than areas with lower levels of firearm ownership. Areas that have greater levels of income inequality, regardless of current gun-control-laws have greater levels of overall crime and, as a result, greater levels of firearms related crime.
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Poor little trayvon. The kid was just trying to make something if himself:
http://peopleagainstshittycop.files.word…
http://peopleagainstshittycop.files.word…
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19,
Coming from you, the description of eloquence means quite a lot. I've always wished I could someday write as well as you.
Coming from you, the description of eloquence means quite a lot. I've always wished I could someday write as well as you.
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You are close to chuckles in that your writing is so void of facts or reality as to make it irritating that the web exists.
You can't write a check.
You are close to chuckles in that your writing is so void of facts or reality as to make it irritating that the web exists.
You can't write a check.
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@13
I understand, and my emotional self shares your sentiments, but I'm trying to separate my emotions from policy discussions. The first rule of parenting is that you do not discipline your children when upset, angry, sad, whatever, but rather, when calm, and with consistency. I only try and apply that to my political discussions. I do not advocate any position. I exist to be convinced, but first, I attempt to present relevant, factual information.
We are still the envy of the world, so they can call us nutz all they want. But are you nutz? I think not. Other countries citizens base their opinions on their sense of patriotism, they want their country to be the best in the world. The US is the world's largest economy, by far, we enjoy the most freedoms, by far, and have the most powerful military, on an obscene scale. The rest of the world is player hating. Whoever is on top, becomes the focal point of criticism, whether it is a CEO, a musician, an economic power, or even a sports team. We are all Americans. And I don't think you're nutz, and we cannot look at America as this entity that is separate from ourselves. All of our viewpoints, are American viewpoints, because we are all Americans. You cannot separate the country from the individual. We are all cells in a large organism. My ligaments might not share my opinions, but they are still me, even if they don't want to be... We are our government. We run this bitch. And if you don't believe that, I understand, but respectfully disagree.
I understand, and my emotional self shares your sentiments, but I'm trying to separate my emotions from policy discussions. The first rule of parenting is that you do not discipline your children when upset, angry, sad, whatever, but rather, when calm, and with consistency. I only try and apply that to my political discussions. I do not advocate any position. I exist to be convinced, but first, I attempt to present relevant, factual information.
We are still the envy of the world, so they can call us nutz all they want. But are you nutz? I think not. Other countries citizens base their opinions on their sense of patriotism, they want their country to be the best in the world. The US is the world's largest economy, by far, we enjoy the most freedoms, by far, and have the most powerful military, on an obscene scale. The rest of the world is player hating. Whoever is on top, becomes the focal point of criticism, whether it is a CEO, a musician, an economic power, or even a sports team. We are all Americans. And I don't think you're nutz, and we cannot look at America as this entity that is separate from ourselves. All of our viewpoints, are American viewpoints, because we are all Americans. You cannot separate the country from the individual. We are all cells in a large organism. My ligaments might not share my opinions, but they are still me, even if they don't want to be... We are our government. We run this bitch. And if you don't believe that, I understand, but respectfully disagree.
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@18, So we go invade another country, based on a lie perpetrated by our government and kill hundreds of thousands of civilians but the only deaths that matter are our own??
Or is this an example of, as Ph'nglui puts it: "piece together all sorts of disparate clues, pick out certain statistics while ignoring others, and make a huge deal out of well-chosen outliers."
Incidentally, what data is it exactly that the NRA is suppressing? The FBI and CDC both have, publicly available, homicide and injury rates broken down, by year - for the last decade or two, race, implement (knife, firearm, including type of firearm, blunt object...etc..etc), region/state/city..etc, age, sex and a host of other variables.
What data is there that you would like to see that you can't? It is true that the FBI and CDC only appear to update once a year. Perhaps you should petition, and provide funding, so that they could release data monthly. Would that be better?
Or is this an example of, as Ph'nglui puts it: "piece together all sorts of disparate clues, pick out certain statistics while ignoring others, and make a huge deal out of well-chosen outliers."
Incidentally, what data is it exactly that the NRA is suppressing? The FBI and CDC both have, publicly available, homicide and injury rates broken down, by year - for the last decade or two, race, implement (knife, firearm, including type of firearm, blunt object...etc..etc), region/state/city..etc, age, sex and a host of other variables.
What data is there that you would like to see that you can't? It is true that the FBI and CDC only appear to update once a year. Perhaps you should petition, and provide funding, so that they could release data monthly. Would that be better?
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@ Charles -
You are still the best damned writer I've read in paper form.
I still think of your dad's cola machine and your friends and you making beats and you raving in London! BTW, I got my own cola machine, as a tribute to the man that helped make you! But I aint cleaning no pools. Being Mexican, I just can't stand the stereotype...
You are still the best damned writer I've read in paper form.
I still think of your dad's cola machine and your friends and you making beats and you raving in London! BTW, I got my own cola machine, as a tribute to the man that helped make you! But I aint cleaning no pools. Being Mexican, I just can't stand the stereotype...
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@23, We are also dead last, or close to last, for a whole host of health related issues. We pay the most for health care out of all industrialized nations.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/20…
Says that 45,000 Americans die every year due to lack of health care coverage. Where's "Tacoma Traveler"'s rage at that?
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/20…
Says that 45,000 Americans die every year due to lack of health care coverage. Where's "Tacoma Traveler"'s rage at that?
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@27 if that's the case then government should ban cars because they are clearly defective and deadly despite good regulation.
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@23
The reason the NRA wants to take emotion out of this is that they know that they will lose that argument. Simple as that.
Emotional suffering is real and efforts to protect us from it have the force of law. The Declaration of Independence says the fundamental basis of our nation includes the "pursuit of Happiness". And now these self-styled patriots come along lecturing us about how emotion has no place when it comes to their dear beloved Second Amendment? Of a nation founded to pursue Happiness?
If you can't face up to emotional realities then you're a child and you don't belong in this discussion at all. This stuff is too serious for emotional cripples.
The reason the NRA wants to take emotion out of this is that they know that they will lose that argument. Simple as that.
Emotional suffering is real and efforts to protect us from it have the force of law. The Declaration of Independence says the fundamental basis of our nation includes the "pursuit of Happiness". And now these self-styled patriots come along lecturing us about how emotion has no place when it comes to their dear beloved Second Amendment? Of a nation founded to pursue Happiness?
If you can't face up to emotional realities then you're a child and you don't belong in this discussion at all. This stuff is too serious for emotional cripples.
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Ruling by emotion:
Sounds like a woman.
Is it any more clear that giving you cunts the right to vote was a terrible disaster?
Sounds like a woman.
Is it any more clear that giving you cunts the right to vote was a terrible disaster?
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If we result to acting out of emotion then you have A LOT more to fear from your paranoid gun nuts that are scared that you are coming to enslave them.
After all they have the guns.
You, on the other hands have nothing except your self righteousness.
You better PRAY that people react without emotion.
After all they have the guns.
You, on the other hands have nothing except your self righteousness.
You better PRAY that people react without emotion.
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@28
Things were pretty bad a century ago. Careful regulation has reduced deaths by a factor of 20, while their usage has increased more each year.
You don't have to think like a cave man "BAN THINGS THAT ARE BAD." You think like an intelligent human being. Study the problem. Find out what is wrong, and fix the problem. People get to enjoy their cars and lives are saved. Everyone is better off.
We can save thousands of lives and yet still gun owners can have their guns. It's why the majority of gun owners support reforms. It's only the gun nuts who are in a panic.
It's sad that you've gotten so angry that you've resorted to calling me a "retarded bitch". Do you feel so powerless that this is all you can think of?
Things were pretty bad a century ago. Careful regulation has reduced deaths by a factor of 20, while their usage has increased more each year.
You don't have to think like a cave man "BAN THINGS THAT ARE BAD." You think like an intelligent human being. Study the problem. Find out what is wrong, and fix the problem. People get to enjoy their cars and lives are saved. Everyone is better off.
We can save thousands of lives and yet still gun owners can have their guns. It's why the majority of gun owners support reforms. It's only the gun nuts who are in a panic.
It's sad that you've gotten so angry that you've resorted to calling me a "retarded bitch". Do you feel so powerless that this is all you can think of?
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23,
You compare your relationship to me as that of a parent to a child. I am not your child. And I do not want to be spoken down to, in the condescending fashion that you have so described.
We do not enjoy the most freedoms. There are millions who cannot marry, simply because they are gay and live in a state without said legal protections. In Mississippi, a woman does not have the freedom to access an abortion, except on paper. There is a de facto religious test for public office. Many do not know freedom from want.
Children raised in abusive homes are, in most states, kept in those homes by the agencies laughingly describing themselves as their protectors. Tough many would be better off with loving adoptive parents, many states restrict GLBT people from doing so. An economic draft exists, where people unable to sustain themselves in any other way will choose military service in time of war, simply because death in combat is quicker and less painful than death by homelessness, and far more honorable. Even this pathway to success is largely an illusion, as is shown by the countless homeless veterans than line the sidewalks of Pioneer Square.
In what respect are we the envy of the world? Our defective patchwork of nonsystems that comprises healthcare in America? The manner in which felons are disenfranchised? The highest incarceration rate in the world perhaps is the source of your imagined global envy. Or perhaps the uneven manner in which we fund primary and secondary education in this country, basing it on local tax bases that ensure that a child born on an Indian reservation in South Dakota or in the Bronx or Gary or East St Louis or Detroit will be severely disadvantaged by the time s/he has to compete with kids raised in Medina or Bellevue or the Upper West Side or Beverly Hills?
Yes, many in the developing world do envy us, because all they know about us they've learnt from television and the movies. They think we all live in mansions and have servants and ride in limousines. Its no wonder they'd envy that. But many who discover the cut=throats all too willing to step on their heads just to climb that greasy pole find this place to be far less bucolic than it appears in the media we export to their home countries.
Are the the best in healthcare when tuberculosis ravages our urban populations, dengue has reappeared along our southern border, and vaccine preventable diseases such as measles inexplicably re-emerge? Are we the best in terms of security, when we have to have metal detectors in schools that resemble jails? Are we so superior because of our economic system, that allows some born into wealth to be as slothful as they please while we berate those born destitute to work harder for successes they will never attain? By what measure are we the best? Are we the best at incarceration? At treating our citizens as if they were disposable waste and letting them die of homelessness? At disregarding a child's right to live without fear of being shot to death on a playground?
No, fuck you, I will not be damned with faint praise. I am no child. And I am certainly not your child. Go to hell with your superiority. This country is worth fighting for, but not because of some jingoistic bullshit about how superior we are. This country is worth fighting for because of what we might become if we choose to evolve into a society that respects human rights.
More...
You compare your relationship to me as that of a parent to a child. I am not your child. And I do not want to be spoken down to, in the condescending fashion that you have so described.
We do not enjoy the most freedoms. There are millions who cannot marry, simply because they are gay and live in a state without said legal protections. In Mississippi, a woman does not have the freedom to access an abortion, except on paper. There is a de facto religious test for public office. Many do not know freedom from want.
Children raised in abusive homes are, in most states, kept in those homes by the agencies laughingly describing themselves as their protectors. Tough many would be better off with loving adoptive parents, many states restrict GLBT people from doing so. An economic draft exists, where people unable to sustain themselves in any other way will choose military service in time of war, simply because death in combat is quicker and less painful than death by homelessness, and far more honorable. Even this pathway to success is largely an illusion, as is shown by the countless homeless veterans than line the sidewalks of Pioneer Square.
In what respect are we the envy of the world? Our defective patchwork of nonsystems that comprises healthcare in America? The manner in which felons are disenfranchised? The highest incarceration rate in the world perhaps is the source of your imagined global envy. Or perhaps the uneven manner in which we fund primary and secondary education in this country, basing it on local tax bases that ensure that a child born on an Indian reservation in South Dakota or in the Bronx or Gary or East St Louis or Detroit will be severely disadvantaged by the time s/he has to compete with kids raised in Medina or Bellevue or the Upper West Side or Beverly Hills?
Yes, many in the developing world do envy us, because all they know about us they've learnt from television and the movies. They think we all live in mansions and have servants and ride in limousines. Its no wonder they'd envy that. But many who discover the cut=throats all too willing to step on their heads just to climb that greasy pole find this place to be far less bucolic than it appears in the media we export to their home countries.
Are the the best in healthcare when tuberculosis ravages our urban populations, dengue has reappeared along our southern border, and vaccine preventable diseases such as measles inexplicably re-emerge? Are we the best in terms of security, when we have to have metal detectors in schools that resemble jails? Are we so superior because of our economic system, that allows some born into wealth to be as slothful as they please while we berate those born destitute to work harder for successes they will never attain? By what measure are we the best? Are we the best at incarceration? At treating our citizens as if they were disposable waste and letting them die of homelessness? At disregarding a child's right to live without fear of being shot to death on a playground?
No, fuck you, I will not be damned with faint praise. I am no child. And I am certainly not your child. Go to hell with your superiority. This country is worth fighting for, but not because of some jingoistic bullshit about how superior we are. This country is worth fighting for because of what we might become if we choose to evolve into a society that respects human rights.
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No, Tacoma shit heel. You are a fucking vapid communist.
The reason you are so sad and depressed is because we as a country reject your bullshit.
Good thing too, because apparently. The only public policy you advocate or even notice has to do with fucking or coddling criminals.
You are what's wrong with this country.
When the shit hits the fan, you'll be the first to be buzzard food.
The reason you are so sad and depressed is because we as a country reject your bullshit.
Good thing too, because apparently. The only public policy you advocate or even notice has to do with fucking or coddling criminals.
You are what's wrong with this country.
When the shit hits the fan, you'll be the first to be buzzard food.
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i'd like to honor the gun nuts here, who, you know, own guns tostand up for liberty! that's why the gun owners in america freed the slaves! they all backed john brown, wow, how fucking heroic. and didja see what they did for DC residents over whome we make laws -- but who, incredibly, have no voting rights in the senate or congress? yes, that's right, the NRA has led an armed march on congress forcing them to grant DC full and equal voting rights -- then the gun nuts demanded the same for puerto rico, another set of folks deprived of li berty. and then, the gun nuts marched on langley and made the cia stop killing americans without due process in the drone attacks, yessir, the gun nuts led by our heoric wayne la pierre USED THEIR GUNS TO ORDER THE CIA STO STOP THE DRONES.
see, that's why we need 200 million guns all over, they give us soooooo much sweeeeet li berty, a few gun deahts are well worth it for all this expansion of liberty and the standing up for voting rights, equality, all our rights! yessir indeed, those gun nuts were leading the civil rights marches, too!
see, that's why we need 200 million guns all over, they give us soooooo much sweeeeet li berty, a few gun deahts are well worth it for all this expansion of liberty and the standing up for voting rights, equality, all our rights! yessir indeed, those gun nuts were leading the civil rights marches, too!
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@26
I understand that, the nuances of American success and failure is a subject which I keep up on. There are a great many things we are doing poorly. But that doesn't change our status as the world's dominating economy. It might someday if we don't invest more in education, but for the foreseable future, our spot is all but guaranteed.
I understand that, the nuances of American success and failure is a subject which I keep up on. There are a great many things we are doing poorly. But that doesn't change our status as the world's dominating economy. It might someday if we don't invest more in education, but for the foreseable future, our spot is all but guaranteed.
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37,
But our lives are more than dollars and cents. And you cannot tell me that the economic dominance of a few is worth the suffering of the many. If you hold as I do that every life has equivalent value, then you will be appalled at the way we treat our fellow citizens. not to mention the way we treat everybody else.
When we are the richest in terms of the lowest rates of preventable deaths, we will be the richest country in the world. When our Gross National Happiness per capita exceeds that of other nations, we will rule the world. When the cleanliness of our cities is the envy of the world, and our lack of poverty the dream of nations, we will have won.
We are not anywhere close to that success. Now come, instead of resting on illusory laurels or adopting condescending attitudes toward one another, lets you and I get to work on pulling this country in the direction of real freedom.
But our lives are more than dollars and cents. And you cannot tell me that the economic dominance of a few is worth the suffering of the many. If you hold as I do that every life has equivalent value, then you will be appalled at the way we treat our fellow citizens. not to mention the way we treat everybody else.
When we are the richest in terms of the lowest rates of preventable deaths, we will be the richest country in the world. When our Gross National Happiness per capita exceeds that of other nations, we will rule the world. When the cleanliness of our cities is the envy of the world, and our lack of poverty the dream of nations, we will have won.
We are not anywhere close to that success. Now come, instead of resting on illusory laurels or adopting condescending attitudes toward one another, lets you and I get to work on pulling this country in the direction of real freedom.
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2,282 individuals who have been killed by guns since the Newtown massacre.How many slog posts about guns since the Newtown massacre?
That boggles my mind like nothing else.
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@29
It is interesting to cite the Declaration of Independence for this discussion on violence, considering it is our nation's first declaration of war.
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, is contained in the preamble. The preamble is not a legally binding part of the declaration. That issue was settled long ago.
The NRA is absolutely playing to the emotions of the American people. Their entire campaign is based upon fear, as an emotion, and the human psyche's natural response to fear. Both as a tactic, and as their own natural feeling on the subject. They are personally driven by emotion, and emotion is also what they are selling. Even if they say "we need to take the emotion out of this debate", they are not saying that in earnest. It is another part of their plan to play on emotions, they know their audience very well. It is not unlike their opposition's marketing strategies.
Emotions are important. They are valid, and worthy of our consideration. Those feeling overwhelming emotion deserve our empathy and assistance. In your feelings on this subject, I agree.
I would argue that emotion has no place in a policy debate, or in creating legislation. I would also argue that my ability to look beyond my own emotions is not an example of an inability to express or understand emotion, but rather, a result of my very deep and profound understanding of my own emotions and those of others. It is because I am in touch with my emotions so very intimately, that I can set them aside and separate myself from their influence and use logic to achieve the desired outcome.
My emotions are extreme, they are intense, I feel in ways that most others do not. If I had a superpower, it would be empathy. Only a person that was once controlled completely by their emotions, can understand the unintended consequences that they can have. I worked very hard studying my emotions (over decades), eventually learning to acknowledge, interpret, and honor my emotions. I eventually reached a point where my emotional self was no longer in control, but working with me, in an almost symbiotic like relationship. I am only a whole person when those two halves are together. But being a whole person, with strong emotions, requires temporary separation when appropriate.
Engaging in meaningful debate and making decisions that will have broad implications for hundreds of millions of people, possibly for hundreds of years to come, is a prime example of an appropriate time to honor, but ultimately separate one's emotions from the issue at hand.
In many types of court cases, a judge has the right, and a duty, to throw out the decision of the jury if the judge feels they made their decision based on emotion and not on the facts.
Emotions are important, but they cloud judgement.
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It is interesting to cite the Declaration of Independence for this discussion on violence, considering it is our nation's first declaration of war.
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, is contained in the preamble. The preamble is not a legally binding part of the declaration. That issue was settled long ago.
The NRA is absolutely playing to the emotions of the American people. Their entire campaign is based upon fear, as an emotion, and the human psyche's natural response to fear. Both as a tactic, and as their own natural feeling on the subject. They are personally driven by emotion, and emotion is also what they are selling. Even if they say "we need to take the emotion out of this debate", they are not saying that in earnest. It is another part of their plan to play on emotions, they know their audience very well. It is not unlike their opposition's marketing strategies.
Emotions are important. They are valid, and worthy of our consideration. Those feeling overwhelming emotion deserve our empathy and assistance. In your feelings on this subject, I agree.
I would argue that emotion has no place in a policy debate, or in creating legislation. I would also argue that my ability to look beyond my own emotions is not an example of an inability to express or understand emotion, but rather, a result of my very deep and profound understanding of my own emotions and those of others. It is because I am in touch with my emotions so very intimately, that I can set them aside and separate myself from their influence and use logic to achieve the desired outcome.
My emotions are extreme, they are intense, I feel in ways that most others do not. If I had a superpower, it would be empathy. Only a person that was once controlled completely by their emotions, can understand the unintended consequences that they can have. I worked very hard studying my emotions (over decades), eventually learning to acknowledge, interpret, and honor my emotions. I eventually reached a point where my emotional self was no longer in control, but working with me, in an almost symbiotic like relationship. I am only a whole person when those two halves are together. But being a whole person, with strong emotions, requires temporary separation when appropriate.
Engaging in meaningful debate and making decisions that will have broad implications for hundreds of millions of people, possibly for hundreds of years to come, is a prime example of an appropriate time to honor, but ultimately separate one's emotions from the issue at hand.
In many types of court cases, a judge has the right, and a duty, to throw out the decision of the jury if the judge feels they made their decision based on emotion and not on the facts.
Emotions are important, but they cloud judgement.
41
@38
I apologize for not being more clear. It was my intent to attach our economic position to the reasoning of other countries citizens in citing us as nutz, or demonizing us in other ways. I was trying to back up my player hating argument.
I think you and I likely agree on more than we disagree. I appreciate your thoughts. I thank you.
I apologize for not being more clear. It was my intent to attach our economic position to the reasoning of other countries citizens in citing us as nutz, or demonizing us in other ways. I was trying to back up my player hating argument.
I think you and I likely agree on more than we disagree. I appreciate your thoughts. I thank you.
42
Guns kill people.
People don't kill people.
Therefore, imprison all guns.
Set all murderers free.
43
Yet another complete shitshow thread on the most liberal board in America.
Reading this nonsense is like picking a scab. Since I can't afford to fly someplace warm and sunny, I can only hope to hold out until the 5th of July and enjoy my summer.
Then I can resume with this ideological autoerotic bullshit next November 1st.
Sigh.
Fuck.
Reading this nonsense is like picking a scab. Since I can't afford to fly someplace warm and sunny, I can only hope to hold out until the 5th of July and enjoy my summer.
Then I can resume with this ideological autoerotic bullshit next November 1st.
Sigh.
Fuck.
44
@43
You seriously think the The Slog is the most liberal board in America? You think this is how far left it can get? you have no idea.
But how could you? Rush Limbaugh sent you here to play act after all.
You seriously think the The Slog is the most liberal board in America? You think this is how far left it can get? you have no idea.
But how could you? Rush Limbaugh sent you here to play act after all.
45
@33
I think I failed to get my point across earlier. My analogy about parenting was not directed at any individual, but rather, directed at the process in which we make our laws. Please trust me when I say that I was not being condescending, and I was typing calmly and in good spirits. My point was that laws should be written from a logical perspective, leaving the emotion out.
I'm sorry that I made you so angry. That was not my intention. I do hear what you are saying, and I can agree with a lot of it, I hope you do see some of the good too.
Marriage for all will be a reality in the country very soon. Things move slowly by design here, and I think that is good. Peoples are marginalized and abused, and nobody knows that better than me. I've been through things that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. But these social problems are worked out over time, although too slowly sometimes, but one by one, we have righted many wrongs and will continue to do so.
For me, I try to look on the bright side, to see the good, that helps me get through the nasty stuff. And what I cannot tolerate, I change.
Sometimes I do question America's role in the world, and its attempts at hegemony, and when I do, I just open my history books to remind myself that every country, every culture, has had their turn at domination and abuse, of their own people, of taking other people's lands, destroying other countries. Every country has blood on their hands, and one day, it'll be a different country in our position, and then the world will call them nutz.
Until then, I will change what I cannot tolerate, I will be good to my neighbors, both local and international, and I will operate with good faith and kindness in my heart. That's what gets me through the days when I have a hard time with world events. I only worry about what I am willing to change. Everything else is just too big a burden. And I don't feel right complaining unless I am willing to pour myself into changing it. I only have one life, and I will devote some of it in an attempt at leaving this planet better than I found it, but the rest, I will devote to enjoying myself.
I hope some of that helps explain me, I am just trying to have a friendly conversation, and I genuinely feel bad for upsetting you so. I hope it hasn't soured your evening.
More...
I think I failed to get my point across earlier. My analogy about parenting was not directed at any individual, but rather, directed at the process in which we make our laws. Please trust me when I say that I was not being condescending, and I was typing calmly and in good spirits. My point was that laws should be written from a logical perspective, leaving the emotion out.
I'm sorry that I made you so angry. That was not my intention. I do hear what you are saying, and I can agree with a lot of it, I hope you do see some of the good too.
Marriage for all will be a reality in the country very soon. Things move slowly by design here, and I think that is good. Peoples are marginalized and abused, and nobody knows that better than me. I've been through things that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. But these social problems are worked out over time, although too slowly sometimes, but one by one, we have righted many wrongs and will continue to do so.
For me, I try to look on the bright side, to see the good, that helps me get through the nasty stuff. And what I cannot tolerate, I change.
Sometimes I do question America's role in the world, and its attempts at hegemony, and when I do, I just open my history books to remind myself that every country, every culture, has had their turn at domination and abuse, of their own people, of taking other people's lands, destroying other countries. Every country has blood on their hands, and one day, it'll be a different country in our position, and then the world will call them nutz.
Until then, I will change what I cannot tolerate, I will be good to my neighbors, both local and international, and I will operate with good faith and kindness in my heart. That's what gets me through the days when I have a hard time with world events. I only worry about what I am willing to change. Everything else is just too big a burden. And I don't feel right complaining unless I am willing to pour myself into changing it. I only have one life, and I will devote some of it in an attempt at leaving this planet better than I found it, but the rest, I will devote to enjoying myself.
I hope some of that helps explain me, I am just trying to have a friendly conversation, and I genuinely feel bad for upsetting you so. I hope it hasn't soured your evening.
46
scratchmaster joe keeping it real with his real name, respect. good luck at dmc in April, friend.
47
The vast majority of those probably wouldn't have been prevented with an assault weapons ban. It only takes one shot, usually.
Background checks might have cut down on it, though.
Background checks might have cut down on it, though.
48
Yes, well, we have a GREAT opportunity to pass universal background checks this session - HB 1588. I would love to see it get a vote on the House floor.
49
So Chuck Mud, are you saying there have been ~2000 suicides since the first of the year? And you are blaming...guns, not the people who pulled the trigger?
Somebody call 911 and get the free Obamacare psychologists to help these suffering people!
Ya'll voted for that shit, now put it to work.
Somebody call 911 and get the free Obamacare psychologists to help these suffering people!
Ya'll voted for that shit, now put it to work.
50
The gun control debates have convinced me again to stop reading unregistered posts. If one has merit, hopefully a registered user of Slog will repeat it. Otherwise, I don't see the point in engaging all the interloping trolls that are inevitably bussed in to these posts solely to repeat Fox talking points.
That said, @23, if you really think that the rest of the world criticizing our collective poor decisions (healthcare system, military actions, gun policy, education, etc) is nothing but "player hating", you need to speak with more people who live abroad.
That said, @23, if you really think that the rest of the world criticizing our collective poor decisions (healthcare system, military actions, gun policy, education, etc) is nothing but "player hating", you need to speak with more people who live abroad.
51
"As Chicago Fan has pointed out, the information on gun violence in the USA is not as strong as it should be because the NRA has been conducting a war on the facts."
Charles, look back over my posts.
How many times have I pointed out that the staff at The Stranger could be collecting that information for the Seattle area?
Have you done anything about that?
No.
Why is that?
Charles, look back over my posts.
How many times have I pointed out that the staff at The Stranger could be collecting that information for the Seattle area?
Have you done anything about that?
No.
Why is that?
52
I'd rather die in a shooting than own a gun.
That's right, I'm admitting that there's going to be another shooting. In my house. With a gun pointed at me. With a dude/girl that is saying crazy shit and about to shoot me. Shoot me.
I'd rather die in a "government takeover" than own a gun.
That's right. When the government takes over everything, shoot me. I'll be dead. It's a better life than living in SO MUCH FEAR THAT I FEEL LIKE I NEED TO OWN A GUN.
I feel sorry for those that feel like they need to own a gun.
Find me, shoot me. I am truly saddened by this madness.
That's right, I'm admitting that there's going to be another shooting. In my house. With a gun pointed at me. With a dude/girl that is saying crazy shit and about to shoot me. Shoot me.
I'd rather die in a "government takeover" than own a gun.
That's right. When the government takes over everything, shoot me. I'll be dead. It's a better life than living in SO MUCH FEAR THAT I FEEL LIKE I NEED TO OWN A GUN.
I feel sorry for those that feel like they need to own a gun.
Find me, shoot me. I am truly saddened by this madness.
53
45,
Our laws should not be made in a parochial fashion, nor should government behave as parent to it's child the citizen. Simply put, we the voting public are not children, nor should we be stripped of our adulthood in terms of our dignity or our strength.
There is inherent condescension in anyone who expresses their relationship with another adult or adults as parental. While I agree that one si greater and the other lesser, the roles are reversed from what you describe. It is the government that is the creation of the citizens, and not the other way around.
And if you are to apologize for such an attitude, do so without qualifiers. I apologize, full stop, is far more sincere than "I'm sorry that you feel that way". The latter is a non-apology, i states that you feel pity for the way another person feels rather than accept responsibility for having wronged them. If you are so keen to declare yourself the adult in the room then act like one by assuming the defining trait of maturity-responsibility for one's actions.Admit the fault, cleanly, apologize for it, and be done with it. Telling me that you feel pity merely adds insult.
Our laws should not be made in a parochial fashion, nor should government behave as parent to it's child the citizen. Simply put, we the voting public are not children, nor should we be stripped of our adulthood in terms of our dignity or our strength.
There is inherent condescension in anyone who expresses their relationship with another adult or adults as parental. While I agree that one si greater and the other lesser, the roles are reversed from what you describe. It is the government that is the creation of the citizens, and not the other way around.
And if you are to apologize for such an attitude, do so without qualifiers. I apologize, full stop, is far more sincere than "I'm sorry that you feel that way". The latter is a non-apology, i states that you feel pity for the way another person feels rather than accept responsibility for having wronged them. If you are so keen to declare yourself the adult in the room then act like one by assuming the defining trait of maturity-responsibility for one's actions.Admit the fault, cleanly, apologize for it, and be done with it. Telling me that you feel pity merely adds insult.
54
@ 53, 45's apology was 100% free of qualifiers. Just forgive him and move on, and stop going out of your way to feel butthurt.
55
@53: I am unsure if you were treated as a child in this thread, but damn are you acting like it now. You actually got a decent apology ON THE INTERNET because your wittle fees fees were moderately hurt by a small slight that was not even really a slight, and now you are demanding more, and refusing the apology?
Grow the fuck up. No one owes you anything.
Grow the fuck up. No one owes you anything.
56
@50
I have been overseas 4 times in the last 9 months.
I have been places you wouldn't recognize as being on planet earth. I have seen our government and military carry out phenomenal humanitarian missions to provide other countries people with food and shelter and education.
You can trust that I am well acquainted with the opinions of people across 5 continents.
Other people's opinions of America have no bearing on the quality of American life. It is their sense of patriotism that causes them to ridicule other countries (player hating). Everyone wants their country to be on top. Whoever is, is the subject of the most ridicule.
My family came to this country from Mexico seeking a better life, and we found it. I know what it is like to go days without food. I know what it is like to not own shoes.
We do need to do many things better, that is a fact. However, my poorest relative, making only $8,000 per year on disability, has all the healthcare she needs, a nice 1 bedroom apartment, and cupboards stocked with food, all fully paid for by the US Government and the State of Washington. Her life looks wealthy by some countries standards. Even some european countries standards...
Our quality of life here is exceptional. Our government (aka ourselves) does more for its people than the vast majority of countries on earth. I'm glad some countries are kicking our ass is certain areas. Everyone needs to come up. It is a good thing. I am not ashamed of that, it does highlight areas for improvement, but improvements are being made. They are not, however, being made by criticism. They are being made by those invested enough to work for a better tomorrow, and not just complain about a crappy today.
The America bashing that goes on here in Seattle and other well to do parts of the country do nothing to improve America. I firmly believe that if a person does not like something, that they should be actively changing it. Rhetoric accomplishes nothing. Self hatred accomplishes nothing.
People that come from the mountains of Zacatecas, like my family, have a very different opinion of America. If we hadn't come here, we would likely be living in abject poverty, and at the whims of the Los Zetas cartel, one of the most violent and powerful criminal organizations in the world. You know, the guys that cut off people's heads and roll them onto police station property? They now run Zacatecas. They own the lives of the people living where we would live, were we still there.
In other words, talk is cheap, action is worthwhile, and the average American has no idea what it is like to actually go without. Especially, especially, especially, my American friends living in Seattle. I hear them complain, but yet they enjoy a very high quality of life, and I do not see them doing anything to change the things they dislike. I only hear them talk. I wish they would talk less and do more.
You are America. Like it or not, your opinions, are American, your ethics, are American, your standards, are American. It is time to stop pretending like American people and American government are separate entities. You are your own government. Act like it.
More...
I have been overseas 4 times in the last 9 months.
I have been places you wouldn't recognize as being on planet earth. I have seen our government and military carry out phenomenal humanitarian missions to provide other countries people with food and shelter and education.
You can trust that I am well acquainted with the opinions of people across 5 continents.
Other people's opinions of America have no bearing on the quality of American life. It is their sense of patriotism that causes them to ridicule other countries (player hating). Everyone wants their country to be on top. Whoever is, is the subject of the most ridicule.
My family came to this country from Mexico seeking a better life, and we found it. I know what it is like to go days without food. I know what it is like to not own shoes.
We do need to do many things better, that is a fact. However, my poorest relative, making only $8,000 per year on disability, has all the healthcare she needs, a nice 1 bedroom apartment, and cupboards stocked with food, all fully paid for by the US Government and the State of Washington. Her life looks wealthy by some countries standards. Even some european countries standards...
Our quality of life here is exceptional. Our government (aka ourselves) does more for its people than the vast majority of countries on earth. I'm glad some countries are kicking our ass is certain areas. Everyone needs to come up. It is a good thing. I am not ashamed of that, it does highlight areas for improvement, but improvements are being made. They are not, however, being made by criticism. They are being made by those invested enough to work for a better tomorrow, and not just complain about a crappy today.
The America bashing that goes on here in Seattle and other well to do parts of the country do nothing to improve America. I firmly believe that if a person does not like something, that they should be actively changing it. Rhetoric accomplishes nothing. Self hatred accomplishes nothing.
People that come from the mountains of Zacatecas, like my family, have a very different opinion of America. If we hadn't come here, we would likely be living in abject poverty, and at the whims of the Los Zetas cartel, one of the most violent and powerful criminal organizations in the world. You know, the guys that cut off people's heads and roll them onto police station property? They now run Zacatecas. They own the lives of the people living where we would live, were we still there.
In other words, talk is cheap, action is worthwhile, and the average American has no idea what it is like to actually go without. Especially, especially, especially, my American friends living in Seattle. I hear them complain, but yet they enjoy a very high quality of life, and I do not see them doing anything to change the things they dislike. I only hear them talk. I wish they would talk less and do more.
You are America. Like it or not, your opinions, are American, your ethics, are American, your standards, are American. It is time to stop pretending like American people and American government are separate entities. You are your own government. Act like it.
58
Charles,
Thank you!!! It's coming up again! Last year I finally made it to the US Championship!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKRnoXXH…
Thank you!!! It's coming up again! Last year I finally made it to the US Championship!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKRnoXXH…
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