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Sunday, February 24, 2013

SL Letter of the Day: Boys 2 Men

Posted by on Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 10:01 AM

Originally published June 16, 2005:

I started teaching high-school freshmen three years ago when I was 23. I was closer in age/culture to most of my students than I was to the other teachers. That first year I bonded with a lot of the students; in particular with a small group of boys that were on the basketball team I coached. A couple of these boys developed normal crushes on me-as any horny teenager would have on a mildly attractive female teacher. Since they were 14, I would laugh off their advances by jokingly telling them to "ask again when you're 18."

Well, these boys are now seniors and as their 18th birthdays approach they have taken to reminding me of what I used to say. I know I should laugh off these advances and see the innocent boys that they were instead of the hot men I watched them grow into. But we're talking varsity swimmer and soccer player HOT, Dan. Hot enough to put up with the gossip that would seep through this small town. And it's not just physical attraction-these model-quality guys have killer personalities too.

I have maintained professional and appropriate relationships with these boys over the years. But what about once they're legal and out of school? It seems like 27-year-old men hook up with 18-year-old girls all the time, while middle-aged men drool over the Olsen twins. Why can't I make an 18-year-old's dream come true?

Tempted Teach

My response after the jump...

Without a doubt there are lots of reasons I would make a terrible high-school teacher, but high up on the list would be my refusal to play along with our cultural schizophrenia when it comes to attractive 18-year-olds. The same culture that holds up teenagers or might-as-well-be teenagers as the beauty ideal-from Katie "Grin and Bear It" Holmes to Jude "Sexiest Man Alive" Law-penalizes anyone who admits to actually finding hot, legal 18-year-olds attractive. My refusal to pretend that 18-year-olds aren't (1) often hot, and (2) fair game would no doubt cause a scandal at whatever high school was stupid enough to employ me. So it's probably for the best that I'm not a high-school teacher. Instead I have a job that allows me to be honest with my employers about why I took a day off last week to watch 19-year-old Spanish tennis star/superbabe Rafael Nadal win the French Open.

But while I won't condemn you wanting to fuck the living shit out of a pack of totally hot, completely legal, soon-to-be-former students, TT, I don't think you should do it. Here's why: You live in a small town and you like your job. When word gets out-and those boys won't be able to resist telling their friends-your school will find a reason to fire you. School administrators in these litigious times aren't going to look the other way while a teacher bangs her former students. They're going to assume, perhaps rightly, that any teacher banging 18-year-old grads today may be banging 17-year-old juniors a few years down the road. At the very least they'll worry, perhaps rightly, that you invested years in grooming these boys and that you'll set your sights on a fresh crop of 14-year-olds. And if you ever did get caught fucking a 16-year-old current student, your bosses know they'll be fired too if it gets out that they knew you had slept with former students in the past.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I think it's totally fine for hot 27-year-old women to sleep with hot 18-year-old guys. If they're old enough to go get limbs blown off in Iraq, they're old enough to get blown stateside. But sleeping with 18-year-old former students carries too many professional risks, TT, for me to give my blessing.

But let's say I got a letter from a 27-year-old high-school teacher who was spending a couple of weeks in, say, Cancun, where she met some recent high-school grads who were totally hot and totally legal and totally not her former students. I would definitely tell that teacher to fuck those boys' brains out-and send me the video-so long as she observed the Campsite Rule. Older folks who mess around with younger folks have a special duty, TT, and it is to leave 'em in better shape than they found 'em. You don't make babies, you don't give 'em diseases, you don't lead 'em to believe that anything lasting is going to come of this. You answer their questions, correct any misconceptions they may have about sex, show them where the clit is, make sure they know that birth control is their job too.

Are you with me, TT? There are ways you can scratch your itch for a guy, or a few guys, or a few dozen guys, who are varsity swimmer/soccer player/Spanish tennis star HOT without risking your job. I mean, you get to go on spring break too, right?

 

Comments (48) RSS

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52
The more I think about it, the more bizarre I find it that multiple fourteen year olds made a pass at her mid-20s self. There's a lot of space between the sort of behavior an adult can recognize as a crush, and the sort of outright request for a date that would bring forth a response of "ask me again when you're 18."

It would be weird if they were all peers working at a pizza place, and even then I'd find it odd that it was the 14 year olds, not even driving for a couple more years, who were putting the moves on someone a decade older. 24 to 14 is a big decade.
Posted by IPJ on February 26, 2013 at 2:09 PM · Report this
shurenka 51
@46

"C'mon. People are not magically transformed in fully functional adults capable of handling a moderately challenging interpersonal encounter on their 18th Birthday."

This.

To a certain extent age of consent is arbitrary, but IMHO any responsible, mature adult realizes that a teenager's first relationships should be with peers, not people with whom there is a vast difference in power/age/experience. While not all adult-teen relationships end badly, and in not all cases does the younger party feel victimized, there is a huge potential for abuse.
Posted by shurenka on February 26, 2013 at 7:12 AM · Report this
50
Mr Hershey - If they're as great as she says they are, they'll still be around in two years and they'll still be interested? That's the sort of sentiment suited to Amelia Nettleship, but this situation isn't out of a romantic novel.
Posted by vennominon on February 25, 2013 at 4:42 PM · Report this
46
C'mon. People are not magically transformed in fully functional adults capable of handling a moderately challenging interpersonal encounter on their 18th Birthday. We all know that. Yes, we also all know it's highly unlikely these guys are virgins. Quite honestly, I'm just as worried that the LW would be exploited by this scenario as the guy(s). I doubt they'd keep a conquest of this proportion quiet.

Lady, don't be a shallow perv. They are lot and lots of attractive men who have never been your student and who are 21 and over. You might even consider selecting sexual partners and playmates on criteria slightly less shallow than how 'hot' they look.

Full disclosure: At 14-16 years old, I was the target of my 55-year-old teacher's sexual fixation. Whispered affections and furtive touching during class escalated over the two years to a rape attempt when I was taking a makeup exam. I was telling him to stop all along. I was afraid to blow the whistle since even my friends didn't want to believe it. Also the Vice Principal was well known to be dating/sleeping with girls at the school. I looked like an adult at 14, but I wasn't. I didn't have the social skill, the judgement, the maturity, the confidence, or the authority. The year after I left, two girls came forward separately with similar stories and he was charged. Turns out girls had been reporting him FOR 15 YEARS and they did nothing. This is a public high school in an affluent, progressive Southern California town. I never came forward myself and I'm still scarred by it 30 years later.

Posted by TheOtherWoman on February 25, 2013 at 3:33 PM · Report this
45
The emphasis on how hot these lads are might be the LW trying to tempt Dan to give her the thumbs up, rather than indicating 'fake'.

I agree the LW is creepy, and I agree that her riposte "try again when you're 18" was much too provocative and encouraging to be directed to 14 year old boys over whom she had a power relationship.

But sometimes former students marry their former teachers. If she waits until they're 20 or 21, and is thinking relationship rather than a bunch of hot flings, then she just possibly might be able to very selectively act on her temptation without being a totally irresponsible asshole.
Posted by Functional Atheist on February 25, 2013 at 12:32 PM · Report this
Write or Wrong 44
I think a lot of you are being too hard on her for saying "ask again when you're 18." She probably said that just to get them off her back because they wouldn't stop with other responses from her OR she assumed they would forget about it by then/figure out on their own that it was inappropriate of them to ask out their teacher. Lighten up.
Posted by Write or Wrong on February 25, 2013 at 11:17 AM · Report this
43
Worst advice I saw in a while. no mention at all of power imbalance.
Posted by cpt. tim on February 25, 2013 at 9:43 AM · Report this
Puckerd Poop Chute 42
Wow, I don't know where you all went to HS but when I was going in the mid 80's, half the teachers in my school were married to former students. One girl actually took one of the coaches as her date to the prom. It was creepy seeing him in the hotel room after prom party.
On a creepy side note, the principal was a predatory open homosexual. A good friend of mine went to his place once and described to me how he had a hot tub and every drug you could have imagined. This was when we were Jrs. I knew what he described was wrong but I so naive at the time, I didn't realize how wrong it was and we should have reported the creep
Posted by Puckerd Poop Chute on February 25, 2013 at 8:25 AM · Report this
I Fucked Your Dad 41
Forget the 18 year olds. Go for their dads.
Posted by I Fucked Your Dad on February 24, 2013 at 10:00 PM · Report this
40
Choosing to rerun this letter when poor Rafa's knees are causing him so much trouble seems either unfortunate or weirdly canny.

And Mr Savage is not (quite) in the Mutton Dressed as Lamb category, surely? Anyway, even taking into account those who overdo it and go beyond the benign range, as a whole that group is preferable to a lot of groups of people who act their age.
Posted by vennominon on February 24, 2013 at 8:51 PM · Report this
Canadian Nurse 39
I'm wondering if this woman is still legally able to teach in the US, now that it's 7 years later.
Posted by Canadian Nurse on February 24, 2013 at 7:53 PM · Report this
seandr 38
@kwodell:what this teacher did was absolutely grooming...To be clear, grooming is a form of sexual abuse in and of itself.

You think "try again when you're 18" is sexual abuse?

That is sad.
Posted by seandr on February 24, 2013 at 4:55 PM · Report this
Knat 37
Show your school spirit by supporting them at their swim meets and soccer matches. Then go home and masturbate furiously to the physiques you were secretly appreciating the entire time. This is assuming of course that you're sure watching them run around and get drenched in sweat/pool water for two hours won't overwhelm your better judgement if they spot you in the crowd and come talk to you (and possibly hit on you).
Posted by Knat on February 24, 2013 at 4:02 PM · Report this
36
I have no objection to a 27-year-old having sex with an 18-year-old. I have HUGE objections to a teacher having sex with a former student who is fresh out of high school. There are PLENTY of hot 18-year-old males looking to have sex with older women. I get a couple requests a month from them on OKC (the profiles seem pretty truthful - depressingly so), and I'm 36 and not terribly hot. This woman just seems creepy.
Posted by JrzWrld on February 24, 2013 at 3:30 PM · Report this
ams_ 35
Maybe now that Dan's son is a young teenager, he can imagine whether or not he would fuck his son's current friends as soon as they hit 18. Hey, they're "fair game" right? His son, should he find this a creepy betrayal, would just be suffering from "cultural schizophrenia" (Whatever that means).

Relationships with power dynamics are NOTHING like relationships without. This person should not be teaching. She is obviously dangerously selfish and immature. Predator is the right word.
Posted by ams_ on February 24, 2013 at 3:15 PM · Report this
Sargon Bighorn 34
#33 In the FIRST paragraph from TT " ...team I coached. A couple of these boys developed normal crushes on me-as any horny teenager would have on a mildly attractive female teacher". Mr Savage was spared the trouble by the writer.
Posted by Sargon Bighorn on February 24, 2013 at 2:29 PM · Report this
T 33
@14 Shocked it took so long to bring up the half-plus-seven rule. It's not law, but it certainly makes this woman creepy as fuck, and any 18-year old dude would be wise to steer clear of this trainwreck of a woman - a woman who "joked" with 14-year olds that they should ask again when they were 18. Yikes.

Also, one thing Dan completely neglected to mention is that this woman was their TEACHER. Yeah, they're 18 now, but there is and always will be a dynamic between them that would make any relationship between them, fleeting or meaningful, totally inappropriate.
Posted by T on February 24, 2013 at 2:23 PM · Report this
Lose-Lose 32
How about this: why rush it? One consequence of being a teacher is that it never stops. She's a new teacher, this is a problem that many new teachers have; most of them deal with it, some of them follow the law to the letter (ie, date after graduation), but she's in no rush.

Yes, the potential for dramatic, negative consequences are huge IF she pursues these men immediately after they graduate from high school. But she will be there for a while, they will be there for a while, or at least coming back home occasionally. As time passes, these former students connections to their school wanes; in a short amount of time (a year) it won't be an issue.

So, chill out for now. The bigger issue is how she deals with her current students. Flirty is not a good teacher quality, neither is "ask me when you're 18".
Posted by Lose-Lose on February 24, 2013 at 2:02 PM · Report this
31
Once the boys are 18 and no longer students in high school, the 'totally hot' teacher w/ arrested development is free to fuck her 'totally hot' former students and perhaps birth 'totally hot' babies just so we can keep this 'totally hot' syndrome alive. Keep in mind Dan, 'totally hot' is a fleeting image and it may be time for even you to take a totally long look in the mirror. Too many gay men I know are turning 60 and still seeing the totally hot self image they saw at age 18.
Posted by SASS on February 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM · Report this
30
Nononono there is NO reason teacher should be banging her former students until they are at least, I don't know, 25 or so and with at least a handful of longish term relationships and sexual experiences under their belt. The previous relationship needs to be completely ended and new ones formed (as does happen between students and teachers when they are both reintroduced as adults), not a transitioning of one form of relationship to another.

In this case, she formed a power-relationship with these boys when they were 13/14/15/whatever - before they were emotionally mature enough (in the scientific sense of it) to make "adult" sexual decisions. Such a relationship when they were 18 is an inherent abuse of power regardless of the thoughts/feelings/motives of the individuals involved.

I used to coach middle school sports. Like any young-20's guy, several of the students developed crushes on me. Some of them I found attractive, although obviously nothing ever became of that and those memories are safely locked away in my caveman-brain fantasy zone. Even now, as most of my former students have graduated college and moved in to "real" "adulthood", I would still feel grody and icky about ever doing anything with them or even creating a situation where that could happen. How would I explain how I met her? "Oh, we met when I was coaching her middle school soccer team". FUCKING BARF.
Posted by fetish on February 24, 2013 at 1:58 PM · Report this
chaseacross 29
There's no state mentioned into the letter, but many states have laws against teachers forming sexual relationships with *former* students as well, at least for several years.
Posted by chaseacross on February 24, 2013 at 1:45 PM · Report this
eclexia 28
Shorter reply: "Witch Hunt"
Posted by eclexia on February 24, 2013 at 1:34 PM · Report this
Posted by tim koch on February 24, 2013 at 1:20 PM · Report this
26
done.
Posted by tim koch on February 24, 2013 at 1:09 PM · Report this
nightscrawl 25
@18, it says: "A couple of these boys developed normal crushes on me-as any horny teenager would have on a mildly attractive female teacher."
Posted by nightscrawl on February 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM · Report this
Helenka (also a Canuck) 24
I get the fake vibe from this letter. First of all, are there really female basketball coaches of high school boys' teams? Yeah, sure, Glee has Coach Beiste with the boys' football team, but the actress (Dot-Marie Jones IIRC) is 6' tall and very convincing in the role.

Then, the LW makes sure to emphasize just how sizzling HOT she is - oh, and the boys, too - before admitting that sex with them would be worth any penalty. Uh ... I don't think her male students were the only immature people at that school.

I'd also wonder how any teen girls observing her behaviour would describe it. So. Not. Cool.
Posted by Helenka (also a Canuck) on February 24, 2013 at 1:02 PM · Report this
23
@18: If you have 10ish basketball players and 6 of them make a pass at you, that's kind of a lot to be gay. Especially openly gay at age 14, 8 years ago. (Or so comfortable with their bisexual curiosity.) So a woman.

Also the last paragraph about men lusting over 18 year old girls sounds like it's meant to reverse to women lusting over 18 year old boys. Men lusting after 18 year old boys isn't notably different: no one is saying to male history teachers "it's okay to fuck each of your female students as they turn 18, but not the boys."
Posted by IPJ on February 24, 2013 at 1:01 PM · Report this
Alanmt 22
Because the campsite rule applies to young people who are not fully emotionally mature and experienced, may have expectations that are not shared byt he older person and also don't have a good appreciation for consequences. It doesn't matter who initiates. The older, presumably more responsible person has ethical charge of the younger one. And presumably, the older wiser one ought to have the experience to identify a bad person/situation and extricate themselves from it.

The young people have their own rule, the "tea and sympathy rule".

Also, who the hell ever found the Olsen twins attractive?
Posted by Alanmt on February 24, 2013 at 12:58 PM · Report this
Sargon Bighorn 21
I dont understand this camp site rule, "Older folks who mess around with younger folks have a special duty to leave 'em in better shape than they found 'em." What if the younger person is the initiator? Whose camp site is it then? Is it okay for the younger person to leave the older person a diseased emotional wreck? Why isn 't everyone subject to the rule?
Posted by Sargon Bighorn on February 24, 2013 at 12:52 PM · Report this
20
When 27 year old male teachers and coaches fuck their just-turned-18 charges, we actually get pretty creeped out. Getting lucky on spring break with people who have never been in a dependent relationship with you is very different.

Is anyone else struck by the extreme passivity of her letter? Why, SHE's not doing anything. She's just mildly attractive. It just happens that she's surrounded by former students and coachees who are mind-blowingly hot, look like underwear models, and have incredible personalities to boot! And they all want to fuck her as soon as they turn 18... it's not her fault! It just happened! Sounds very creepy predatoresque.

Posted by IPJ on February 24, 2013 at 12:51 PM · Report this
Alanmt 19
Sorry kwodell, but I believe in precision in speech. Words which have specific meanings should be used to denote that meaning, whether the word is pedophile or bigot. Imprecision leads to misunderstanding. So I won't knock it off.

I do agree that grooming is predatory and wrong. I don't know whether this teacher was actively grooming or merely using an inappropriately light-hearted and ambiguous response at the awkwardness of the situation. When they were 14, she was 24, which is pretty young. But yeah if she's all that, she ought to be able to find some other 18 year olds to mess around with.

Posted by Alanmt on February 24, 2013 at 12:51 PM · Report this
gfs 18
Am I the only one who didn't assume the question author is a woman?
Posted by gfs on February 24, 2013 at 12:44 PM · Report this
17
Times have changed a lot. When I was in high school in the mid seventies, my biology teacher was married to a former student - she graduated one weekend, they were married the next. I know another couple who waited six months, got married the fall after she graduated.

Looking at it as a parent, I think I prefer the standards we have about this now. Too easy for predators to use their students as a hunting ground, too much potential for young people to get badly hurt.
Posted by agony on February 24, 2013 at 12:09 PM · Report this
15
"Ask again when you're 18" to a 14-year-old boy is being professional?? That's creepily coy. And now that they're 18 with "killer personalities," she's ready to pounce?

How is this woman gainfully employed by the school system? She sounds like a complete asshat.
Posted by Confluence on February 24, 2013 at 11:53 AM · Report this
Fnarf 14
John Kenneth Galbraith married a student. It may not be a good idea, but it's not the end of the world.

But she's breaking the half-plus-seven rule, and in a small town. I say not worth it.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on February 24, 2013 at 11:38 AM · Report this
ForkyMcSpoon 13
Should've said "Ask again once you're 21 and/or out of college"
Posted by ForkyMcSpoon on February 24, 2013 at 11:31 AM · Report this
12
I had a history teacher in high school, a real hard case, but he would also direct most of our school plays. Once, years before, a student had had a crush on him. She graduated, finished her education—I think she was a dancer of some kind—then came back and asked him out.

I only found out about it because, after they were married, he'd direct the plays and she'd choreograph the dance scenes.

Change the "when you're 18" to "when you're 21 and no longer my student." And one real relationship is less likely to cause problems than a string of flings.
Posted by DRF on February 24, 2013 at 11:10 AM · Report this
11
I say "to be clear" to damn much. Sorry.
Posted by kwodell on February 24, 2013 at 11:06 AM · Report this
10
Simac (7) is right on target. Ditto in spades. And to repeat, what this teacher did was absolutely grooming. You shut down advances by shutting them down, not by saying catch me later.

Alanmt, semantics won't get you very far when your lawyer is trying to keep you off of the sex offender registry. To be clear, grooming is a form of sexual abuse in and of itself. You say potato, I say potah-to. Just knock it off.

*To be clear, I am not accusing Alanmt of anything and don't mean to sound like I am. I used "you" in the general you, not the specific you.
Posted by kwodell on February 24, 2013 at 11:03 AM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 9
Anybody who needs to have all this explained to them is not teacher material.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on February 24, 2013 at 11:02 AM · Report this
Alanmt 8
Simac, your point is good, but your terminaology is bad. Pedophiles are attracted to prepubescent children. Not ones who have gone through adolescence. Teachers who begin grooming 14 year olds for sex at 18 are predators, but not pedophiles.
Posted by Alanmt on February 24, 2013 at 10:50 AM · Report this
Simac 7
So in a lot of states, including Washington, there are laws in place that bar sexual relationships between teachers and students, even if they are 18 years old. Where laws do not forbid it, teachers' codes of conduct often do.

If a teacher wants to retain his or her job and avoid potential prosecution, depending on where he or she lives, then a relationship with a former student is never a good idea (unless the student is over the higher age of consent required in such situations, often age 21).

The purpose of such laws is to prevent pedophiles who are teachers from grooming students and then making a move on a student's 18th birthday. There are many cases where pedophiles have used this M.O. (Personally, I think this is a good idea and similar to bans on unequal-rank dating situations in e.g. the military, many companies, etc.) In this case, the teacher's toleration if not encouragement and reciprocation of flirting may be documentable and used as evidence of grooming should a case end up court.

It's not like there aren't lots of 18-year-olds who might be interested who do not fall under such bans. So pursuing a relationship with current or former 18-year-old students is a bad idea on a professional level and a bad idea legally.
Posted by Simac on February 24, 2013 at 10:44 AM · Report this
zivilisierter Wurm 6
It wouldn't be risking your job. It would be setting it on fire and throwing it out the window. Parent associations are insanely puritanical. When they find out, and I mean WHEN they find out about you fucking former students, the parents will demand blood, and the administrators will come down on your dumb ass like the hammer of Thor.

So I will hope this letter is fake, and that children's minds aren't being entrusted to someone this stupid.
Posted by zivilisierter Wurm http://peregrinari.tumblr.com/ on February 24, 2013 at 10:41 AM · Report this
rob! 5
Well, lessee what's in the recent browser history...

I was dragged kicking and screaming to the NY Daily News site yesterday by a Slog link regarding the Vatican gay-sex tskandal, and while there, I happened to see this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national…

Yes, that one was under 18. But people (pursued or pursuer) shouldn't be so quick to rely on being "hot enough to put up with the gossip that would seep through this small town."
Posted by rob! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZBdUceCL5U on February 24, 2013 at 10:39 AM · Report this
4
A classic response in all senses of the word classic: obviously from the past (sigh, how quickly Jude Law aged), yet still timeless in its perfection.

My only add-on is that an 18 year old former student of several years may have all kinds of complicated emotional stuff going on that might make the Campsite Rule difficult (crushes, love, whatever), especially at an age that's still teenage.

A random 18 year old who one just met, easier to keep the Campsite Rule.
Posted by delta35 on February 24, 2013 at 10:36 AM · Report this
3
I'm pretty sure that nowadays most schools would try to find a way to make the spring break thing an issue too.
Posted by treehugger on February 24, 2013 at 10:31 AM · Report this
2
I think wanting to fuck hot 18 year-olds is normal too, although I do think it's creepy that this woman has known these boys since they were 14 and is still able to look at them as sex objects 4 years later. And her "ask me again when you're 18" response to their earlier advances seems totally inappropriate.
Posted by Amanda on February 24, 2013 at 10:30 AM · Report this
MacCrocodile 1
She's a public school teacher. Her spring break vacation is likely going to a movie at the cheap theater and treating herself to a night of responsible drinking at whatever passes for a club in a small town. The rest of the week is spent preparing for the coming week.
Posted by MacCrocodile http://maccrocodile.com/ on February 24, 2013 at 10:29 AM · Report this

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