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News & ArtsWednesday, February 13, 2013
Crime / The Ladies To Avoid Rape, "Try not to show fear."
Posted by Anna Minard on Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:29 AM
A bunch of really creepy assaults or attempted assaults have been reported to police by women in North Seattle lately. The police blotter is littered with them:
• A report of a woman sexually assaulted near Northgate Mall on February 9
• An attempted abduction of a woman in Greenwood on February 10
• A woman attacked while walking home from a Green Lake/Wallingford neighborhood bar in the early hours of February 11
• Another woman attacked while jogging around Green Lake later that morning.
I came across this crime roundup in this post about the attacks on PhinneyWood, the Phinney Ridge/Greenwood neighborhood blog. The post includes a long message from SPD's North Precinct crime prevention officer, Terrie Johnston, recommending that readers "please review these personal safety tips." The tips, of which there are a dozen, include things like:
Do you know your location? Do you know the street names, hundred block? East, South, West, North? Could you tell the 9-1-1 call taker to where they need to dispatch responders?
Try to get good descriptions of anyone acting suspiciously or threatening. Start from the head and work down. Most likely you know your height, so use this to gauge theirs.
If traveling alone, take a charged up cell phone with you if possible. Know what is available to you along your route. What time does that store open or close? Does that apt.bldg. have a security guard? Is there a payphone?
Ipod earphones, etc. may prevent you from hearing someone approaching. As does texting while you are walking, waiting for the bus, etc. You need to be aware when out if public spaces.
Wear appropriate clothing for the street. Shoes that are comfortable and allow you to run if necessary. Choose clothing that allows you to move, and does not block your vision.
The list also includes the tips: "Stand tall, walk confidently with your head up, eyes open and constantly scanning the surroundings" and "Try not to show fear. Keep a neutral face that shows you are 'in charge.'"
So, to review: Seattleites—and let's be honest, we're talking mostly to women here—as you go about your business, constantly scan your surroundings, memorizing detailed physical descriptions of people you encounter. Always know, down to the exact block, where you are and where the nearest security guard is and the hours of nearby businesses. Wear running shoes and loose, appropriate clothing—aka clothing appropriate for running away in. Bring your cell phone, but don't use it to listen to music or text. And as you walk through the city like a human danger-scanner, walk confidently and keep your face neutral. You're "in charge"!
WHAT THE FUCK?
I'm sure the police department is working to solve these crimes. I'm sure they just want to remind people that we live in a city and crime is real and it can happen to you. But this is exactly the kind of shit that we are talking about when we talk about women being raised in a culture of fear and conditioned to certain behaviors and expectations—like the expectation that we're the ducks in a giant game of Duck Hunt™.
Here's just one rape statistic: One out of every six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. That's scary. That's too common. But also too common, when we talk about rape, is the message that unfortunately, it's women's responsibility to keep themselves safe from rapists, not society's job to deal with why this happens and what, systemically, we might be able to do to change the culture that encourages that behavior.
Here, as a refresher, are the best rape prevention tips I've ever read:
8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.
That is the conversation I would like to see happening at the Seattle Police Department, and not just among women on women's blogs. Not a convoluted and ever-growing list of how to prevent your own rape by wearing the right non-rapey hairstyle or crossing the street in the most anti-rape fashion or sleeping in past the raping hour.
That is not helping women and, obviously, it is not ending rape.
1
I always read these tips as advice to people who suddenly find themselves fearful of their surroundings.
"If you're afraid, here are some proactive steps you can take to help manage your fear."
"If you're afraid, here are some proactive steps you can take to help manage your fear."
2
I have some advice for men who are thinking about perhaps raping somebody: DON'T FUCKING RAPE PEOPLE.
3
I heard rapists' eyes can only detect movement, much like Spielberg's T-Rex. The best advice is to simply stand still or freeze in place to confuse a wouldbe attacker.
4
They're just giving advice Anna, you don't have to follow it if you don't want to.
And of course, the "tips" to rapists to try not to rape people is funny and all, but you know it's not serious. Rapists aren't going to stop simply because they're asked, as you know perfectly well.
Yes, the culture needs to change. I completely agree. But in the meantime, I think it's nice to provide advice to people who want it.
And of course, the "tips" to rapists to try not to rape people is funny and all, but you know it's not serious. Rapists aren't going to stop simply because they're asked, as you know perfectly well.
Yes, the culture needs to change. I completely agree. But in the meantime, I think it's nice to provide advice to people who want it.
5
Yeah, lets sit around and talk about things instead of counseling potential victims on how to not be victims. That sounds like a wonderful idea. Maybe this serial attacker just needs a friend. Maybe his mom didn't love him enough. No point in helping women protect themselves, Anna Minard just solved the problem! WOOOHOO!!!
6
But don't you dare suggest installing surveillance cameras in these high-traffic, high-crime areas because FREEDOM.
7
All of that advice sounds perfectly reasonable, for men and women. Be aware of your surroundings, especially in a city, at night, or in unfamiliar areas. I try to do that all the time, and I'm a guy. What's the big deal? I suppose you could walk around a major city in a state of blissful ignorance and self-absorption. That's another way you could go.
8
You know...we can talk about the whys and the prevention of sexual assaulters all we want, but you also have to protect yourself, especially if there is a known predator out on the streets.
I mean, seriously, if there is an active predator out on the streets, does talking about the cultural reasons the guy may be self-justified in being a predator help protect the next victim? No.
When I worked closing shifts at a movie theater, men and women got treated with THE EXACT SAME ADVICE. Keep your heads up, walk confidently, leave in pairs, have your car keys in hand, be ready to mace a motherfucker if you have to. It was because other theaters have had their employees be mugged since the employees don't leave until well after the last movie gets out.
Is sexual assault the same as mugging? No. It's far worse.
Do most of us take sexual assault as a given, much like mugging? Probably. We know there are assholes out there. We can shun them all we want, but predators will still exist.
I mean, seriously, if there is an active predator out on the streets, does talking about the cultural reasons the guy may be self-justified in being a predator help protect the next victim? No.
When I worked closing shifts at a movie theater, men and women got treated with THE EXACT SAME ADVICE. Keep your heads up, walk confidently, leave in pairs, have your car keys in hand, be ready to mace a motherfucker if you have to. It was because other theaters have had their employees be mugged since the employees don't leave until well after the last movie gets out.
Is sexual assault the same as mugging? No. It's far worse.
Do most of us take sexual assault as a given, much like mugging? Probably. We know there are assholes out there. We can shun them all we want, but predators will still exist.
10
This is not an either/or proposition, Anna. You can simultaneously give women tips to protect themselves and also work to "change the culture" (whatever that means). I've never understood this side of feminist thought on rape; that acknowledging its existence and working to minimize the damage is somehow the enemy, and practical, short-term actions designed to keep people safe is "not helping women."
11
It's "common sense" advice that isn't necessarily practical, and of course it targets women as potential rape victims. But otherwise, it's hardly any different than the advice the UWPD sends out whenever there's a report of a crime in the U-District. Even if there's a report of two or more people being threatened who cooperate and hand over their stuff and aren't hurt, they always say to be aware of your surroundings, walk in groups, and comply. It's like spambot advice.
And at least when they say to wear appropriate clothing, they're not slut-shaming.
And at least when they say to wear appropriate clothing, they're not slut-shaming.
12
Yeah, this is pretty much SOP for big city living, men or women. AKA don't get mugged (or worse, sadly) advice.
13
My goodness, Anna is clueless about the way the actual, physical world works. This posi was just a whine fest.
14
So you don't want drones or webcams which could possibly scare off the pervs, but you do want to complain about the crimes they might prevent. Which is it SLOG...my head is spinning.
15
"That is not helping women and, obviously, it is not ending rape."
Well, not women or rape in general. But given the specific predator's MO, such measures could very well prevent a rape, which certainly would help that specific woman. I'd think you'd be behind that.
Or you could just stand by doing nothing as a few more women are sexually assaulted as sacrificial lambs in the name of fighting rape culture. I'm sure they'll understand.
Well, not women or rape in general. But given the specific predator's MO, such measures could very well prevent a rape, which certainly would help that specific woman. I'd think you'd be behind that.
Or you could just stand by doing nothing as a few more women are sexually assaulted as sacrificial lambs in the name of fighting rape culture. I'm sure they'll understand.
16
With all due respect, the knee jerk outrage is also tiresome. At this moment, there is a known predator in the city and while it would be great if he could just not rape people he exists. Pretending he doesn't is silly.
And he's praying on a particular set of people. Yes, women should be free to jog alone, wear anything they want, etc. But until this criminal is caught, a little behavior modification isn't the patriarchal norms holding women down. It's prudence. Try not to be exactly the person this criminal is looking for. Gasp, horror, demeaning!
If there was a rash of muggings targeting middle aged slightly overweight men alone at night I would probably wouldn't walk up to Prost by myself at night until they catch him.
And he's praying on a particular set of people. Yes, women should be free to jog alone, wear anything they want, etc. But until this criminal is caught, a little behavior modification isn't the patriarchal norms holding women down. It's prudence. Try not to be exactly the person this criminal is looking for. Gasp, horror, demeaning!
If there was a rash of muggings targeting middle aged slightly overweight men alone at night I would probably wouldn't walk up to Prost by myself at night until they catch him.
17
If the advice was the taking the place of police work, that would be bad. The advice itself is good. Criminals prefer timid, frightened targets. They actively seek out people who look down, and who avoid eye contact.
18
As uncomfortable as it is, we are all vulnerable to attack under certain circumstances. I, a male, avoid being in isolated places, especially at night. Do I resent it? No. There are bad guys out there and there always will be. Not a block from here a man was walking home from the store and an assailant chopped his head in half with an axe.
19
I fail to see how these tips are in the least bit helpful when they have been pounded into every woman's head since she was born.
20
Only 15% of rapes are committed by someone the victim doesn't know and only a subset of those are these kind of street abductions. Frankly of all the kinds of rape women have to worry about, these kinds are the rarest.
@10 The issue is not that women don't want to be safe, it is assuming they do not already know this shit.
Every women I have ever known knows about rape and all these 'tips' on how to prevent it. None of them need to be told this shit as though it something novel and a number of them are completely ridiculous things that essentially require a woman to base her life around the threat of rape.
So,like with everything else in life, there comes a point where people just decide to live their fucking lives instead of obsessing about safety all the time. But then, of course, when something happens people now feel entitled to judge the victims behavior because unlike men, women don't get admiration for taking risk, but condemnation and blame.
@10 The issue is not that women don't want to be safe, it is assuming they do not already know this shit.
Every women I have ever known knows about rape and all these 'tips' on how to prevent it. None of them need to be told this shit as though it something novel and a number of them are completely ridiculous things that essentially require a woman to base her life around the threat of rape.
So,like with everything else in life, there comes a point where people just decide to live their fucking lives instead of obsessing about safety all the time. But then, of course, when something happens people now feel entitled to judge the victims behavior because unlike men, women don't get admiration for taking risk, but condemnation and blame.
21
I don't see you providing any solutions here, only your trademark ranting and whining. So honestly, your article is far worse than the advice SPD offers. Couldn't you have contacted a rape treatment counselor to come up with some concrete advice rather than spew your hipster moaning of "Oh, the irony!" ?
22
Why are there no tips on the best way to shoot a potential attacker? Should I fire a warning shot? Or just go straight for the kill. Why do all these tips tell me to be prey and run away? Seems that if we don't want to talk about ways to teach folks it's not ok to be a sexual predator, then we should invoke our 2nd Amendment rights and just openly carry weapons of deterrence.
FYI - These tips do not protect anyone. At all. You run, they will catch you.
FYI - These tips do not protect anyone. At all. You run, they will catch you.
23
I agree with the comments that this is a well intentioned advice from the PD with some good and even common sense ideas, however I also totally sympathize with Anna's reaction. I mean this is basically asking women to assume a combat readiness whenever they are out for a stroll or jog in their neighborhood. Running errands shouldn't require the same preparedness as a foot patrol in Falluja. How maddening is that?
24
Any long time street cop can tell you that rapists are predators that behave just like predators do in the animal world. They look for the easiest kills. People who are least likely to put up a fight.
On another note, ah the liberal dilemma. We are pro feminism and pro woman power. Yet we hate guns. But they can certainly stop a rape in the hands of a trained woman, who is aware of her surroundings and ready and able to use the gun the moment the attack starts.
On another note, ah the liberal dilemma. We are pro feminism and pro woman power. Yet we hate guns. But they can certainly stop a rape in the hands of a trained woman, who is aware of her surroundings and ready and able to use the gun the moment the attack starts.
25
You know, most of that advice (except WTF: payphones?! Really?) is just the kind of stuff anyone, male or female, needs to keep in mind when walking around in the city, and especially in sketchier areas.
As a guy, if I'm walking around, say, the southern end of downtown at 9pm on a Monday night, my earbuds are out, I'm paying attention to people around me and my surroundings, I'm walking with purpose, yadda yadda. This is different from how I would act if I was walking down Broadway a noon on Saturday.
I don't think advice that tells ANYBODY how to comport themselves when walking around potentially unsafe parts of a city amounts to "culture of fear" stuff or "blaming the victim".
As a guy, if I'm walking around, say, the southern end of downtown at 9pm on a Monday night, my earbuds are out, I'm paying attention to people around me and my surroundings, I'm walking with purpose, yadda yadda. This is different from how I would act if I was walking down Broadway a noon on Saturday.
I don't think advice that tells ANYBODY how to comport themselves when walking around potentially unsafe parts of a city amounts to "culture of fear" stuff or "blaming the victim".
26
I suspect that if you're walking around North Seattle at night and get attacked, you'll be a little less interested in "why this happens and what, systemically, we might be able to do to change the culture that encourages that behavior" and a little more interested in escaping, calling 911, and providing an accurate location of the attack and description of the attacker.
But please, continue with your bluster.
But please, continue with your bluster.
27
@24 Attempting to use a gun the moment the attack starts sounds like a great way to get your gun taken from you.
I'm pretty sure you want to brandish the gun before the attack starts, before the attacker is within several feet of you.
I'm pretty sure you want to brandish the gun before the attack starts, before the attacker is within several feet of you.
28
These are very similar to the tips they give to avoid being attacked by bears in the wilderness.
But I do fail to see how posting these tips on a website hurts anyone or makes anything worse. While one would not know it reading these comments, course that teach things like this and self-defense measures are among the courses most requested and taken by women, according to several rape prevention groups. So it appears most women do not feel the tips are worthless or harmful.
Granted, if this was the only thing society or police did to stop rape, it would be another story.
But I do fail to see how posting these tips on a website hurts anyone or makes anything worse. While one would not know it reading these comments, course that teach things like this and self-defense measures are among the courses most requested and taken by women, according to several rape prevention groups. So it appears most women do not feel the tips are worthless or harmful.
Granted, if this was the only thing society or police did to stop rape, it would be another story.
29
Just wondering -- when a mugging happens, do the police issue special advice about staying aware of your surroundings and all that? Because I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem that they do.
30
Give me a break. I read all the same feminist blogs you do, and think about the issues you raise all the time. The tips you posted here were obviously written with awareness of those issues (rape culture, culture of fear, etc) and I think they succeed in using non-gendered language. Of course the primary conversation should be about how to stop rapists from raping - and you know SPD is trying to catch the rapist, right? - but it is counterproductive to shut down the conversation any time someone tries, even respectfully and with full awareness of the underlying social issues, to suggest ways for people to stay saferish on the street. If the tips hadn't been written in such a way that suggests the author thought through these issues carefully, I'd be right there with you. But they were, and your reaction makes us feminists look bad. Which we don't really need. Be more thoughtful next time; this stuff is important.
31
@12
Exactly. Seattle, which is basically a giant suburb or college town, is laughable as a "big city" though. People here are so sheltered.
Exactly. Seattle, which is basically a giant suburb or college town, is laughable as a "big city" though. People here are so sheltered.
32
Seems to me that all these women were the type to put up a fight (since they actually did). And yet, they were targeted anyway. Imagine that.
"I mean this is basically asking women to assume a combat readiness whenever they are out for a stroll or jog in their neighborhood. Running errands shouldn't require the same preparedness as a foot patrol in Falluja. How maddening is that?"
Seconded.
"I mean this is basically asking women to assume a combat readiness whenever they are out for a stroll or jog in their neighborhood. Running errands shouldn't require the same preparedness as a foot patrol in Falluja. How maddening is that?"
Seconded.
33
So, teaching women how to protect themselves from crime is sexist? And women's safety should depend entirely on society's ability to educate would-be rapists not to rape? Maybe a PSA campaign - "Remember boys, raping is bad, mmm-kay."
Alrightee then.
Alrightee then.
34
I have a hunch that all those people (male and female) who one sees, at night, in not-especially-safe zones of Seattle, with earbuds in, hoods up, texting with both hands on their phones... may not have had "staying aware of their surroundings" "pounded into their heads". Or maybe it fell out or something.
35
@24 I know a lot of liberals and very few 'hate guns'. I do know a lot of conservatives though that seem to think a gun is some kind of magic wand. That just having one will make you safe with no risk to yourself or others.
A gun is a tool and one that requires a fair bit of training and skill to use correctly especially in a stressful and scary situation. It requires that you always be aware of where it is and who has access to it. It means that you better be damn sure the person you are about to shoot is really a threat, but at the same time that you have no hesitation about pulling the trigger when you need to.
I have zero problem with women or anyone carrying a gun, I just want them well trained.
A gun is a tool and one that requires a fair bit of training and skill to use correctly especially in a stressful and scary situation. It requires that you always be aware of where it is and who has access to it. It means that you better be damn sure the person you are about to shoot is really a threat, but at the same time that you have no hesitation about pulling the trigger when you need to.
I have zero problem with women or anyone carrying a gun, I just want them well trained.
36
@33 Did you click on any of the links in this post. Let's take just one incident as an example.
Well seems she was pretty aware of her surroundings.
So she knew the street and block and had comfortable shoes to jog in.
Seems she was probably not texting, or listening to music or had her eyes averted. He left her alone because she punched and kicked, which is not being offered as a protip.
So how are the SPD tips teaching a woman to protect herself?
She had noticed a man watching her as she left the bar. She then noticed that the same man appeared to be following her from a distance.
Well seems she was pretty aware of her surroundings.
She began to pick up her pace to a slow jog as she made her way along the sidewalk in the 4700 block of Thackeray Avenue NE.
So she knew the street and block and had comfortable shoes to jog in.
She turned to see where the suspect was and within seconds was tackled from behind and knocked to the ground.
Seems she was probably not texting, or listening to music or had her eyes averted. He left her alone because she punched and kicked, which is not being offered as a protip.
So how are the SPD tips teaching a woman to protect herself?
37
I already do all of this stuff, and it sucks (yay rape memories!). Living with constant anxiety and fear takes a LOT of energy that I could spend, oh, I don't know... being happy? I've been followed frequently, and I have pepper spray, I constantly look behind/around me while walking... and I am constantly freaked out when a dude is walking in my blind spot to the point that I will stop abruptly and let them pass me so I can stop having a panic attack.
Being aware of your surroundings and people's descriptions are not "self defense". They are not going to stop anybody. If you want self defense I hope you have money to spend on martial arts/self-defense classes and/or a gun.
Being aware of your surroundings and people's descriptions are not "self defense". They are not going to stop anybody. If you want self defense I hope you have money to spend on martial arts/self-defense classes and/or a gun.
38
@29 I can't speak for the SPD, but they definitely do in the San Francisco area public transportation systems (BART, MUNI).
39
I should be able to walk, or ride my bike through any neighborhood in Baltimore, (HBO's "The Wire" is an accurate portrayal of this city.) but I give some areas a wide birth. I walk with an aggressive gait, and look everyone in the eye. I look in every doorway, and ally that I pass. I stay in well lit areas. I don't carry my expensive electronics exposed for everyone to see.
There should be no rapes, murders, or any other crimes. Society should address the reasons for these problems, but meanwhile I don't want to be maimed or killed now. It's not a crime victim's fault that it happened to him or her, but crimes still happen. A crime free society isn't going materialize anytime soon. I am proactive in avoiding being a victim to the best of my ability.
There should be no rapes, murders, or any other crimes. Society should address the reasons for these problems, but meanwhile I don't want to be maimed or killed now. It's not a crime victim's fault that it happened to him or her, but crimes still happen. A crime free society isn't going materialize anytime soon. I am proactive in avoiding being a victim to the best of my ability.
40
Stop being so war-ey! And stop being so murder-er-ey!
Oh. And while you're at it... stop being theft-ey! Man. I feel so empowered now.
This turing the word "rape" into a cutesy outrage adverb must very cleansing but it's fucking stupid. But hey! It get's you page views!
Look. This idea that we need to teach young men how to better understand consent and deal with their frustrations is an honest and good one. And I wish we taught young men better respect for women and sexuality in general at a young age - like as mandatory classes from grade six on up. All that would impact an already greatly reduced sexual assault rate for sure - since most assaults occur between people who know each other.
But the attacks in Greenlake probably have very little to do with that type of common assault.
These attacks are much rarer stranger attacks. And the rapist is clearly deranged and dangerous and has already decided humiliating and victimizing women gets him off. Eventually this guy will be caught. Clearly he is being very incautious and none too bright.
The list of precautions the police issued are boilerplate standard how to stay safer in an area blighted by any unpredictable crime. They are doing "something" which is exactly what the public demands of them. What the fuck do you want the to do?
Cienna your outrage here is terribly misplaced and hyperbolic. Basically the post is thoughless bullshit.
Oh. And while you're at it... stop being theft-ey! Man. I feel so empowered now.
This turing the word "rape" into a cutesy outrage adverb must very cleansing but it's fucking stupid. But hey! It get's you page views!
Look. This idea that we need to teach young men how to better understand consent and deal with their frustrations is an honest and good one. And I wish we taught young men better respect for women and sexuality in general at a young age - like as mandatory classes from grade six on up. All that would impact an already greatly reduced sexual assault rate for sure - since most assaults occur between people who know each other.
But the attacks in Greenlake probably have very little to do with that type of common assault.
These attacks are much rarer stranger attacks. And the rapist is clearly deranged and dangerous and has already decided humiliating and victimizing women gets him off. Eventually this guy will be caught. Clearly he is being very incautious and none too bright.
The list of precautions the police issued are boilerplate standard how to stay safer in an area blighted by any unpredictable crime. They are doing "something" which is exactly what the public demands of them. What the fuck do you want the to do?
Cienna your outrage here is terribly misplaced and hyperbolic. Basically the post is thoughless bullshit.
41
Whatever may be said for "changing the culture that encourages that behavior", it still seems pretty unrealistic to declare fixing that the Seattle PD's job.
43
I think it's great advice in the sense one is not ALWAYS in these kinds of situations. But good to bear in mind should you find yourself in one.
I was downtown once just coming out of the bus tunnel and some girl asked me for a smoke. I said I didn't have any. Then her bro started following me around saying "yeah you do motherfucker" and getting all into my "grill" and wouldn't leave me alone. Finally I get to another block and I'm like "there's a cigarette store right across the street bro. If you need one go get one." He left me alone because I was passive and yet also forceful. I didn't know whether to flee or fight. I got out of it by using my voice.
I was downtown once just coming out of the bus tunnel and some girl asked me for a smoke. I said I didn't have any. Then her bro started following me around saying "yeah you do motherfucker" and getting all into my "grill" and wouldn't leave me alone. Finally I get to another block and I'm like "there's a cigarette store right across the street bro. If you need one go get one." He left me alone because I was passive and yet also forceful. I didn't know whether to flee or fight. I got out of it by using my voice.
46
Politics and rape aside, you really should know where you are and what direction you're facing. If for nothing more than calling a cab or 911 if an accident happens in front of you. It's not hard, yet I'm amazed at how many people can not for the life of them give you an accurate location when pressed to do so. Try it when you're out and about. Where are you? What street? What side? What cross street? 911 operators have a real problem with people who just don't know where they are.
47
@44
Five Large, you're a genius. Children shot? Sell some guns. Cha-CHING! Rape? Guns! Cha-CHING!
Where others see unconscionable horror, Five Large sees a market.
Five Large, you're a genius. Children shot? Sell some guns. Cha-CHING! Rape? Guns! Cha-CHING!
Where others see unconscionable horror, Five Large sees a market.
48
Seriously Anna, I suggest taking the Women Only firearm class at West Coast Armory, It is one of the top ranges in the country, and is ran by a woman. They even have a convenient location right off the 90, you barely even have to go in to Bellevue. It would make a good story for your little paper and you might even learn something.
http://www.westcoastarmory.com/events/ev…
http://www.westcoastarmory.com/events/ev…
49
The instructions on using your own height to estimate theirs, and examining the person from the head down seems a lot less like how-to-protect-yourself and a lot more like how-to-id-someone-for-a-later-lineup.
I also suspect that the "police are blaming victims" piece is all a clever ploy, stirring up people so they remember there is a rapist in Greenlake/Northgate, so they will act with a bit of extra caution...
I also suspect that the "police are blaming victims" piece is all a clever ploy, stirring up people so they remember there is a rapist in Greenlake/Northgate, so they will act with a bit of extra caution...
51
People around here are so afraid to call 911 when a real crime is happening or about to happen. The cops don't magically know where every crime is and when it's happening. They're just dudes in a car until someone calls them and tells them where to go.
Call 911 before you get attacked. Really. It's ok to do that. If you have someone following you or threatening, dial 911 and tell them so and where you are. 911 operators are ok with that, and if it's nothing, then nothing will happen. You aren't taking valuable resources and distracting the police unless you're calling them to report that the drive through forgot your french fries.
Call 911 before you get attacked. Really. It's ok to do that. If you have someone following you or threatening, dial 911 and tell them so and where you are. 911 operators are ok with that, and if it's nothing, then nothing will happen. You aren't taking valuable resources and distracting the police unless you're calling them to report that the drive through forgot your french fries.
52
Feminist, female, rape victim by acquaintance (20-some years ago) here, and yeah, I have to disagree. I think this is good, standard advice. It's being smart. And while it's not fair that we sometimes have to be hyper-vigilant, and I wouldn't complain about a male curfew after 9pm, that's not going to happen. I think we have to remember that women are part of the culture/society we are trying to change, and I will do my part by making it clear that fucking with me is not a good idea. I am not going to be an easy victim.
53
Good post. I think good rape preventative advice would be to encourage women to main, mutilate or kill men who rape or try to rape. If we are just prey and rape is just part of nature, we need to defend ourselves by any means possible.
54
"Shoes that are comfortable and allow you to run if necessary. Choose clothing that allows you to move, and does not block your vision."
How does "allow you to move" mean "loose" (and I guess, shaming?)? A business pencil skirt with no stretch doesn't really let me run, which is unfortunate, but a knit one is good enough. A full skirt is super easy to run in. Total freedom. I have super snug skinny jeans that are also stretchy enough for me to run in.
And how does "shoes that are comfortable" mean running shoes? If you really need to, you can run in oxfords, ankle boots, flat boots, ballet flats, and if you're a woman of determination, yep, heels.
If anything, this advice all comes off to me as standard advice for anyone in an area alerted for heightened violent crime, like mugging or assault.
I don't care at all for the stuff about looking fearless (I don't think it helps at all), but most of the rest is not out of line and a great improvement on old shit like "don't dress like a slut."
And yes, I ABSOLUTELY agree that FAR too much of rape prevention education focuses just on potential victims and not on potential/actual perpetrators.
But I think the most important thing is that I think a lot of this advice goes beyond prevention and beyond "how to STOP rape with your behaviour" -- there are tips on what to do if you ARE attacked (how to report to 911, how to get away, how to be able to identify your attacker later) and if you can do anything, or if you can manage to get away. Because, how does knowing an intersection STOP a rapist?
There's a definite tone here of acknowledging that sexual assault will occur, regardless of what you do.
How does "allow you to move" mean "loose" (and I guess, shaming?)? A business pencil skirt with no stretch doesn't really let me run, which is unfortunate, but a knit one is good enough. A full skirt is super easy to run in. Total freedom. I have super snug skinny jeans that are also stretchy enough for me to run in.
And how does "shoes that are comfortable" mean running shoes? If you really need to, you can run in oxfords, ankle boots, flat boots, ballet flats, and if you're a woman of determination, yep, heels.
If anything, this advice all comes off to me as standard advice for anyone in an area alerted for heightened violent crime, like mugging or assault.
I don't care at all for the stuff about looking fearless (I don't think it helps at all), but most of the rest is not out of line and a great improvement on old shit like "don't dress like a slut."
And yes, I ABSOLUTELY agree that FAR too much of rape prevention education focuses just on potential victims and not on potential/actual perpetrators.
But I think the most important thing is that I think a lot of this advice goes beyond prevention and beyond "how to STOP rape with your behaviour" -- there are tips on what to do if you ARE attacked (how to report to 911, how to get away, how to be able to identify your attacker later) and if you can do anything, or if you can manage to get away. Because, how does knowing an intersection STOP a rapist?
There's a definite tone here of acknowledging that sexual assault will occur, regardless of what you do.
56
@36 "Seems she was probably not texting, or listening to music or had her eyes averted. He left her alone because she punched and kicked, which is not being offered as a protip."
This is a good point. The descriptions of these incidents themselves demonstrate the insipidity of these protips pretty acutely. It's almost as if the protippers aren't even reading about the crimes on which they're basing their protips. Oscillating between either being too general to have any meaning whatsoever and being too specific to be useful in all situations, these protips are about as applicable in everyday circs as "be careful".
As if people are never going to listen to their iPhones or text while waiting for the bus. Or never going to walk around in high heels. Unless they perceive themselves to be in dangerous circumstances, that is. And at those times, the advice seems pretty unnecessary. At least for these women, the advice seems pretty unnecessary. They seemed to be following the rules about as closely as an average person in an average situation is likely to follow the rules. Which is why using these cases as yet another reason to restate the rules seems pretty ridiculous.
This is a good point. The descriptions of these incidents themselves demonstrate the insipidity of these protips pretty acutely. It's almost as if the protippers aren't even reading about the crimes on which they're basing their protips. Oscillating between either being too general to have any meaning whatsoever and being too specific to be useful in all situations, these protips are about as applicable in everyday circs as "be careful".
As if people are never going to listen to their iPhones or text while waiting for the bus. Or never going to walk around in high heels. Unless they perceive themselves to be in dangerous circumstances, that is. And at those times, the advice seems pretty unnecessary. At least for these women, the advice seems pretty unnecessary. They seemed to be following the rules about as closely as an average person in an average situation is likely to follow the rules. Which is why using these cases as yet another reason to restate the rules seems pretty ridiculous.
58
@57
Maybe from the part where you said that you are against guns. You know an object that makes a weak person equal to a stronger, more powerful attacker, or attackers?
It seems you are OK with rape, just like your despicable bigot ass is also OK with tyranny and gross civil rights violations.
Maybe from the part where you said that you are against guns. You know an object that makes a weak person equal to a stronger, more powerful attacker, or attackers?
It seems you are OK with rape, just like your despicable bigot ass is also OK with tyranny and gross civil rights violations.
59
I don't think the outrage comes from the standard common sense advice on how to reduce the chances that you might be targeted for crime. This wouldn't be an issue at all if women weren't frequently blamed for their own rapes.
Imagine if your house was broken into and everything of value stolen. And people were like "well the fact you were burglarized clearly means you weren't doing enough to prevent burglary, otherwise you wouldn't have been burglarized, and by that logic you are nearly as responsible as the guy who stole from you"
Imagine if your house was broken into and everything of value stolen. And people were like "well the fact you were burglarized clearly means you weren't doing enough to prevent burglary, otherwise you wouldn't have been burglarized, and by that logic you are nearly as responsible as the guy who stole from you"
60
It's still an improvement over the usual advice telling women not to go outside without a male escort.
That's not an accurate statement. Cities that have tailored their anti-rape campaigns to put the onus on the rapist, not the victim, have seen rape rates decline. Many rapists will opt not to rape if they think society at large won't protect them.
Tailoring anti-rape advice toward how the *victim* can avoid being attacked tells rapists that society has their backs. As does many other elements of our culture, such as the presumption that a rape victim had it coming or is a hysterical liar.
Rapists aren't going to stop simply because they're asked
That's not an accurate statement. Cities that have tailored their anti-rape campaigns to put the onus on the rapist, not the victim, have seen rape rates decline. Many rapists will opt not to rape if they think society at large won't protect them.
Tailoring anti-rape advice toward how the *victim* can avoid being attacked tells rapists that society has their backs. As does many other elements of our culture, such as the presumption that a rape victim had it coming or is a hysterical liar.
61
@58 Since there is no mention of any of these women using a gun to fight off their attackers, your argument appears to be misplaced. Unsurprisingly.
62
It's the tone of the "tips" that's so maddening. The officer who provided them is a woman, but there's no acknowledgement that as women, we've all heard this stuff a million times.
If it were phrased as a reminder instead of a news flash, and incorporated a little reality (if I have made the slutty choice to wear high heels, what then?) (and then, as noted, where the hell is there a pay phone anymore, and is my would-be rapist really going to wait patiently while I use it?), and maybe addressed the whole supposedly controversial issue of whether and how to fight back (um, let's say YES, and some stats show that if you do, the odds of getting raped are cut in half)...
And there's this little gem:
"Most likely you know your height, so use this to gauge theirs."
"Most likely," um, unless you're not a human being? Or maybe your ladybrain can't remember how tall your own body is? Or is that a joke?
If it were phrased as a reminder instead of a news flash, and incorporated a little reality (if I have made the slutty choice to wear high heels, what then?) (and then, as noted, where the hell is there a pay phone anymore, and is my would-be rapist really going to wait patiently while I use it?), and maybe addressed the whole supposedly controversial issue of whether and how to fight back (um, let's say YES, and some stats show that if you do, the odds of getting raped are cut in half)...
And there's this little gem:
"Most likely you know your height, so use this to gauge theirs."
"Most likely," um, unless you're not a human being? Or maybe your ladybrain can't remember how tall your own body is? Or is that a joke?
63
@40, I know all us women look alike but maybe you should try reading our bylines? It seems that *your* outrage is a bit misplaced.
64
I read (and shared) this post as a good illustration of how women are encouraged (for good reason) to view the world we live in. The point, as I understood it, is to give the menfolk a feel for how and why women treat everything and everyone with a guarded attitude. If you participated in the thread on when checking out women at the gym is threatening, I encourage you to connect the dots.
65
@58
Now you're just making things up, Five Large.
You know the rapeyest state is Alaska? Over 70 rapes per 100k population. Second most gun owners in the country, almost 60% of the population. South Dakota is second in rapes, and also tops in gun ownership. Other rapey sates? Arkansas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Montana. Also right up at the top in guns. And suicide. Who'd have guessed?
So we can clearly see that high rates of gun ownership do nothing to prevent rape. In fact, you'd almost suspect from the data that guns cause rape. Though I think it's more about the mentality of the gun culture that encourages rapists, somehow.
Now you go sell a gun, Five Large. Cha-CHING!
Now you're just making things up, Five Large.
You know the rapeyest state is Alaska? Over 70 rapes per 100k population. Second most gun owners in the country, almost 60% of the population. South Dakota is second in rapes, and also tops in gun ownership. Other rapey sates? Arkansas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Montana. Also right up at the top in guns. And suicide. Who'd have guessed?
So we can clearly see that high rates of gun ownership do nothing to prevent rape. In fact, you'd almost suspect from the data that guns cause rape. Though I think it's more about the mentality of the gun culture that encourages rapists, somehow.
Now you go sell a gun, Five Large. Cha-CHING!
66
@62 Oh, so its the TONE of the tips. They shouldn't be stated matter-of-factly; instead, they should be stated with a bit of resignation and ennui, so as not to offend your jaded lady ears?
Puh-leeze. Officers aren't exactly known for tact. Take the tips for what they are. Tips. Not fool proof prevention plans. Not that they are the full effort of the police, who intend on doing nothing with any of the attacks. Just tips.
If you've heard them fin. Don't fucking be offended by them.
Puh-leeze. Officers aren't exactly known for tact. Take the tips for what they are. Tips. Not fool proof prevention plans. Not that they are the full effort of the police, who intend on doing nothing with any of the attacks. Just tips.
If you've heard them fin. Don't fucking be offended by them.
67
There are a lot of men on this thread who should be ashamed of themselves, but won't be. The derailing and the dismissiveness is beyond disappointing, though hardly shocking.
68
I agree with Cascadian Bacon. If a lady or otherwise decides to carry a firearm in the city as a means of defense, she should definitely receive some training on how and when and why to use it and not allow it to kill the people he or she loves.
69
Can I just say that I am really tired of the fact that I have spent almost my entire life (since I was old enough to ride my bike to the Lake Sawyer grocery store to buy penny candy) having to treat every guy I meet as Schrodinger's Rapist? Every one of you. Even family members. Other sloggers? Potential rapists. Job interview? Potential assault. Date? Rapist? It is really fucking exhausting always putting the onus to avoid rape on myself.
70
If you don't see anything wrong with this and are worried that you're ridiculously misogynistic, ask yourself: Have you EVER seen "tips" like this when there are crimes against men? If there is a rash of shootings of young men, do you hear authorities ask men to wear running shoes or to wear "appropriate clothing"?
71
First, men who say that it's just good common sense for people (women) to do all this stuff cannot then turn around and complain when women won't give them the time of day. See: Schroedinger's Rapist.
Second, any advice telling women how to not get raped actually means "Be sure he rapes some other woman."
Second, any advice telling women how to not get raped actually means "Be sure he rapes some other woman."
72
sexual assault is not about punishing those who wear short skirts or get drunk or walk home alone. sexual assault is about power and masculinity, and in order to deconstruct the rape culture we live in, we must address those issues.
men: this is YOUR problem. those tips? THEY ARE FOR YOU! drill them into your head as ive you've been socialized your whole fucking life to prevent sexual assaults. be aware of your surroundings. see something shady? a woman being followed? someone paying too much attention to a stranger? don’t fucking ignore it. im not encouraging some culture of paternalistic protection, im saying YOU are responsible for preventing sexual assault too. start here: Men Can Stop Rape -- mencanstoprape.org
men: this is YOUR problem. those tips? THEY ARE FOR YOU! drill them into your head as ive you've been socialized your whole fucking life to prevent sexual assaults. be aware of your surroundings. see something shady? a woman being followed? someone paying too much attention to a stranger? don’t fucking ignore it. im not encouraging some culture of paternalistic protection, im saying YOU are responsible for preventing sexual assault too. start here: Men Can Stop Rape -- mencanstoprape.org
73
@70 YES. But, that's because I lived near Detroit, when shootings against young men would be because of wearing gang colors, including accidental shootings. So, yeah, I have seen men get told not to wear certain items.
And, generally men don't wear these clothes with heels of slick bottomed dress shoes...so the running shoes bit is a given.
And, generally men don't wear these clothes with heels of slick bottomed dress shoes...so the running shoes bit is a given.
74
@66 Tone and content are often deeply connected (especially as they pertain to context). In this case, using these particular incidents to reissue boilerplate rules—regardless the applicability of those rules—indicates, to even a remotely interested observer, a lack of seriousness. To any thinking person, a list of Robert's Rules of Order would be almost equally applicable here as well as being equally incongruous with the seriousness of the situation.
And if anyone should be aware of the importance of tone, it's someone whose job it is to de-escalate tense situations.
Beyond which, your decision to close your comment with a command in this situation illustrates your complete lack of appreciation for and understanding of tone. Which, if you had self-awareness, would have suggested to you that you really had no room to talk.
And if anyone should be aware of the importance of tone, it's someone whose job it is to de-escalate tense situations.
Beyond which, your decision to close your comment with a command in this situation illustrates your complete lack of appreciation for and understanding of tone. Which, if you had self-awareness, would have suggested to you that you really had no room to talk.
75
@74 Look at my fucking user name. Tone isn't my fucking forte either. Hence why I say that fucking tone isn't that fucking important, but the fucking message is. Is that fucking tone fucking smooth enough for you, fucker?
76
@75 And yet you chose to comment on it. Perhaps rather than trying to teach about a subject in which you admit incompetence, you would be better off trying to learn.
79
Oh boo hoo, women who in modern society are able to wield their sexuality for power have to consider that it is still a highly sought after treasure that everyone wants. The same principal that gets you everywhere by the light of day needs to be casually thought about by night. DEAL WITH IT.
82
Minard, you are a fucking idiot.
The advice is fine. It's telling women to be proactive and control the things they can, none of which are the mind or actions of rapists.
Your faux-psuedo-intellectual-feminist outrage over the advice is misguided, obnoxious and ignorant.
The advice is fine. It's telling women to be proactive and control the things they can, none of which are the mind or actions of rapists.
Your faux-psuedo-intellectual-feminist outrage over the advice is misguided, obnoxious and ignorant.
83
Translation of @82: "Rapists! They just sorta happen, like hurricanes or earthquakes. Women, though, are people who choose to become victims of assault. These tips are just showing them how to make better choices."
Asshat.
Asshat.
84
I wouldn't have a problem with the tips if there were a corresponding list for male predators, like a serious version of the satirical list Anna linked to. Things like "If you are a man thinking about raping a woman, consider these things first: 1. She is a human being. 2. She has a family" etc.
It seems silly, but I think one of the central problems in trying to fix rape culture is that the kind of men who predate on women are rarely addressed directly as subjects, but rather indirectly as a nebulous, faceless entity (this is what the SPD's tips-for-women list does). I do think rapists are horrible pieces of shit, but unless we try to culturally instruct men to think of women as human beings, they ain't gonna do it. What if there were an ad campaign patiently and compassionately teaching men about the humanity of women? If it made a few guys think twice about raping someone, wouldn't it be worth it?
It seems silly, but I think one of the central problems in trying to fix rape culture is that the kind of men who predate on women are rarely addressed directly as subjects, but rather indirectly as a nebulous, faceless entity (this is what the SPD's tips-for-women list does). I do think rapists are horrible pieces of shit, but unless we try to culturally instruct men to think of women as human beings, they ain't gonna do it. What if there were an ad campaign patiently and compassionately teaching men about the humanity of women? If it made a few guys think twice about raping someone, wouldn't it be worth it?
85
This post isn't arguing that authorities not do anything about the problem. It accepts there is a clear and present danger from a group of predatory and potentially violent assholes. This is just giving you preventative tips to minimize the possibility that you might be targeted, until authorities can catch the perpetrators.
Don't try to make it out into something more than what it actually is.
Don't try to make it out into something more than what it actually is.
86
@84 I don't think people are arguing about the need for culture shift.
I do think people are arguing against the idea that advice like this, given when there is a completely known predator who victimizes random women, is completely sexist and useless because either a) they've heard it before, b) the TONE is all wrong for this kind of thing, or c) they imagine there is no culture telling men that sexual assault is bad.
I do think people are arguing against the idea that advice like this, given when there is a completely known predator who victimizes random women, is completely sexist and useless because either a) they've heard it before, b) the TONE is all wrong for this kind of thing, or c) they imagine there is no culture telling men that sexual assault is bad.
87
Men shocked, offended by women being shocked, offended by boilerplate rape prevention "tips" that condition women to exist in a perpetual state of heightened fear, take it upon themselves to tell women it's for their own good because women are incapable of understanding how to take care of themselves. What would women ever do without men, besides not living under the constant threat of sexual violence?
89
@84: Wahhh, won't someone think of the POOR MEN??? The poor men who just DON'T UNDERSTAND that women are human??? Let's gently hold their hand and spoon-feed them these extremely basic ideas that they would ALREADY GET if they weren't drowning in their own fucking privilege.
I am really embarrassed for most of the men participating in this thread. Like, CONGRATULATIONS, you probably know about A Thing!! But there is almost a 100% chance that you DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT LIVING IN CONSTANT FEAR ABOUT BEING SEXUALLY ASSAULTED. Seriously! You don't! So, instead of talking about a thing you really, REALLY have no clue about, shut up and listen? There are endless essays and articles and research, all available at your fingertips. No spoon feeding necessary!
I would love to school some of you assclowns (some of which I see in real life -- GOMEZ, HELLO!) but your heads are SO FAR UP YOUR OWN ASS, the muffling noise of your own paternalistic bloviating on what people who have an entirely different life experience than you should do would block out any reasoning on the subject, so it isn't worth my fucking time. Hope y'all are looking forward to a self-righteous middle finger the next time I see you in person, you idiot sacks of shit.
I am really embarrassed for most of the men participating in this thread. Like, CONGRATULATIONS, you probably know about A Thing!! But there is almost a 100% chance that you DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT LIVING IN CONSTANT FEAR ABOUT BEING SEXUALLY ASSAULTED. Seriously! You don't! So, instead of talking about a thing you really, REALLY have no clue about, shut up and listen? There are endless essays and articles and research, all available at your fingertips. No spoon feeding necessary!
I would love to school some of you assclowns (some of which I see in real life -- GOMEZ, HELLO!) but your heads are SO FAR UP YOUR OWN ASS, the muffling noise of your own paternalistic bloviating on what people who have an entirely different life experience than you should do would block out any reasoning on the subject, so it isn't worth my fucking time. Hope y'all are looking forward to a self-righteous middle finger the next time I see you in person, you idiot sacks of shit.
90
@87 Some women, like some men, can be monotonous agenda-spouting idiots. And then they write idiotic opinions based on ideas that were completely warped from the original philosophy they came from.
In this case: many people blamed victims of sexual assault, telling them they should have been more careful and that they shouldn't have dressed like sluts and skanks; simultaneously, reducing the sentence of the predator who was so tempted by the easy prey. This was wrong.
It led to a push against the idea that, by not following these warnings, women were making themselves the victims, and thus were somewhat to blame for their own victimization.
Which has now been warped to "don't remind us that we have to be careful! You're being sexist by telling us that we have to watch out for somebody, and giving tips on how to conduct ourselves when there is a known threat. I don't care if there is a predator. Tell that guy not to rape me. I don't care if he is sick in the head and probably won't listen." Sometimes with a touch of "Men don't get told what to do" (which is wrong, btw).
The goal of the original movement was to put the blame on the criminal. The new goal seems to be to remove all reminders of protecting one's self and self-responsibility (because they've all heard it before, or something).
In this case: many people blamed victims of sexual assault, telling them they should have been more careful and that they shouldn't have dressed like sluts and skanks; simultaneously, reducing the sentence of the predator who was so tempted by the easy prey. This was wrong.
It led to a push against the idea that, by not following these warnings, women were making themselves the victims, and thus were somewhat to blame for their own victimization.
Which has now been warped to "don't remind us that we have to be careful! You're being sexist by telling us that we have to watch out for somebody, and giving tips on how to conduct ourselves when there is a known threat. I don't care if there is a predator. Tell that guy not to rape me. I don't care if he is sick in the head and probably won't listen." Sometimes with a touch of "Men don't get told what to do" (which is wrong, btw).
The goal of the original movement was to put the blame on the criminal. The new goal seems to be to remove all reminders of protecting one's self and self-responsibility (because they've all heard it before, or something).
91
@89 A lot of gay men actually have lived in daily fear of being gay bashed and assaulted. Not sexually assaulted, but beat down by some asshole, or a group of assholes, just the same. Sorry, not your exclusive victimization ticket to rally on.
92
@91 Oh my god YOU'RE RIGHT. It's not only women are raped by men!!! You are a motherfucking genius, here is your GOLD STAR for totally debunking rape culture as a whole: http://i.imgur.com/qrmT4.gif
93
Are rapists going to stop raping if we ask them not to? No. But here's the very ugly truth that we know from actual surveys and interviews with men: That guy who rapes the girl he kind of knows at a party when she's pass-out-drunk, he has friends in the next room. Friends who don't know that he's raping her but who knows that there is something that they don't want to know, and so the keep their mouths shut instead of confronting him and they cover for him because he's their friend, and he couldn't possibly... Every rapist has friends, and most of those friends are decent people who don't condone rape, but many of them still turns a blind eye. THOSE are the people we need to reach.
Women already avoid walking alone after dark, keeping their hands clutched around their keys and wonder if maybe they should spend the money that was gonna pay their electrical bill on a cab instead, and then wonder if the cab-driver is a creep who will rape them anyway.
Women already avoid walking alone after dark, keeping their hands clutched around their keys and wonder if maybe they should spend the money that was gonna pay their electrical bill on a cab instead, and then wonder if the cab-driver is a creep who will rape them anyway.
95
@90, I'm not a woman, so when it comes to issues that affect their lives in a much more direct and personal manner than my own, I choose to listen and learn because they live with this shit so they understand it better than I ever will (I can relate because as a gay guy I get rippin' pissed when straight people try to tell me how to feel about shit that has no bearing on their lives). So even if the complaint is "the tone" or "heard it before" or whatever, I accept that as a legitimate criticism because the discussion cannot move forward until everyone does that. Otherwise we're all left spinning our wheels telling each other how to feel, rather moving towards a more practical solution.
Bottom line, if women are saying "this doesn't help" and you want to help, you should be listening.
Bottom line, if women are saying "this doesn't help" and you want to help, you should be listening.
96
@92 There there. It's alright. I know you're already a victim of not having a brain in your head. So, at least you'll have THAT exclusive victim status going for you.
*rewards with a condescending pat on the head*
*rewards with a condescending pat on the head*
97
@alithea, I adore you. Let's get margaritas together sometime soon. We can practice sending out "please don't rape me!" vibes together. BYOBaggyclothing!
On second thought, maybe we should hold the slut juice and make those *virgin* margaritas.
On second thought, maybe we should hold the slut juice and make those *virgin* margaritas.
98
@63 That's it? That's your rhetorical coup. That I got the bylines wrong? Anna is new and I read the names wrong.
And due to that I'm clearly some sort of misogynist that, in what I'm sure you'd libelously claim is evidenced by my inability to distinguish between individual vagina life support systems.
You find one obvious but inconsequential error and that's all you have to say without addressing one single meaningful critical thing. You realize if Stranger readers disqualified every Stranger article based on petty errors you'd have no readers left.
Look. I can appreciate the frustration of being part of a target community based upon the accident of your birth. I worked with sexual assault survivors for over a decade. And I taught women's self defense courses for over a decade. I got involved because my sister in law was brutally raped by a stranger and left for dead.
If your reading comprehension came close to your knee jerk reflexes you'd have read exactly what level of sympathy I have to altering rape culture in my middle statements. But this post has lierally nothing to do with rape culture. It's a vain attempt at outrage generation peppered with hackey cutsey language already stale when Lindy West finally wore it out.
The cops issued boiler plate anti-crime advice - and advice fairly reasonably and gender neutrally presented I might add - due to the nature of the attacks being in-public stranger attacks. Which has fuck all to do with the sort of rape culture critiques other, better, feminist theorists talk about when then they rightly refer to altering cultural approaches to dealing with sexual assaults.
This post by Anna missed the mark by a mile in both its understanding of what constitutes rape culture and what responsibility our Law Enforcement institutions have to public safety.
More...
And due to that I'm clearly some sort of misogynist that, in what I'm sure you'd libelously claim is evidenced by my inability to distinguish between individual vagina life support systems.
You find one obvious but inconsequential error and that's all you have to say without addressing one single meaningful critical thing. You realize if Stranger readers disqualified every Stranger article based on petty errors you'd have no readers left.
Look. I can appreciate the frustration of being part of a target community based upon the accident of your birth. I worked with sexual assault survivors for over a decade. And I taught women's self defense courses for over a decade. I got involved because my sister in law was brutally raped by a stranger and left for dead.
If your reading comprehension came close to your knee jerk reflexes you'd have read exactly what level of sympathy I have to altering rape culture in my middle statements. But this post has lierally nothing to do with rape culture. It's a vain attempt at outrage generation peppered with hackey cutsey language already stale when Lindy West finally wore it out.
The cops issued boiler plate anti-crime advice - and advice fairly reasonably and gender neutrally presented I might add - due to the nature of the attacks being in-public stranger attacks. Which has fuck all to do with the sort of rape culture critiques other, better, feminist theorists talk about when then they rightly refer to altering cultural approaches to dealing with sexual assaults.
This post by Anna missed the mark by a mile in both its understanding of what constitutes rape culture and what responsibility our Law Enforcement institutions have to public safety.
99
@95 Please. If the forward conversation started moving in reverse, do you want to let it keep going backwards? No.
There was, and has been, a damned good forward momentum towards not blaming the victim and actually blaming the criminal.
I liken it to the advice I was given, repeatedly, in the late 90s (yes, even post-Matthew Shepard), which was to not dress gay (which I didn't, but whatever), not act gay in neighborhoods that you didn't know, travel in groups if you can, be aware of your surroundings, travel in well lit areas, etc etc etc.
Or, advice in the mid-90s: don't go into certain parts of Detroit, don't dress in certain colors, don't wear your hair in certain styles, walk with a purpose, be aware of your surroundings, don't go into certain parts of Detroit, travel in groups in bad neighborhoods, etc etc etc.
This advice was repeated through the mid-00s, when a male friend of mine got jumped on his way to his car after a party.
Boilerplate advice, all of it. If I took the time to be offended by the tone any of it was delivered, I'd have been constantly offended. Instead, I took it with the intent it was meant: protect yourself.
There was, and has been, a damned good forward momentum towards not blaming the victim and actually blaming the criminal.
I liken it to the advice I was given, repeatedly, in the late 90s (yes, even post-Matthew Shepard), which was to not dress gay (which I didn't, but whatever), not act gay in neighborhoods that you didn't know, travel in groups if you can, be aware of your surroundings, travel in well lit areas, etc etc etc.
Or, advice in the mid-90s: don't go into certain parts of Detroit, don't dress in certain colors, don't wear your hair in certain styles, walk with a purpose, be aware of your surroundings, don't go into certain parts of Detroit, travel in groups in bad neighborhoods, etc etc etc.
This advice was repeated through the mid-00s, when a male friend of mine got jumped on his way to his car after a party.
Boilerplate advice, all of it. If I took the time to be offended by the tone any of it was delivered, I'd have been constantly offended. Instead, I took it with the intent it was meant: protect yourself.
100
@86 Yeah, but I do think c) on your list is essentially true and this is what I was saying mainly needs solving.
@89 I think you misunderstood my post. I don't care about sympathizing with or pitying men. I care about preventing the rape of women. Rape culture is predicated on, among other things, the pervasive disregard of the humanity of women, and that needs to be fixed. A lot of men obviously don't get these "extremely basic ideas," which is why they need to be taught. Yes, it's pathetic that this is where we're at in 2013. But I'm thinking of a compassionate approach as a strategy, as a means to an end, not something that is owed to men for their sake.
@89 I think you misunderstood my post. I don't care about sympathizing with or pitying men. I care about preventing the rape of women. Rape culture is predicated on, among other things, the pervasive disregard of the humanity of women, and that needs to be fixed. A lot of men obviously don't get these "extremely basic ideas," which is why they need to be taught. Yes, it's pathetic that this is where we're at in 2013. But I'm thinking of a compassionate approach as a strategy, as a means to an end, not something that is owed to men for their sake.
101
@95 (AND GIFFY!!!! Don't think I didn't see your smart comments) Y'all are the best. When I put all the terrible men into a giant rocket ship headed for the sun, you can stay.
102
@100 -- I didn't misunderstand, I just have zero patience for giving MORE to men who have literally endless privilege.
103
@99, Your assumption that you understand where this dialog should be going better than the woman who started it -- or any woman who has commented since -- distills the problem with this thread (and the tips that inspired it) rather eloquently.
105
@98, Showing sympathy to rape victims that one time (or whatever) doesn't give you the authority to dismiss Anna's post as having "literally nothing to do with rape" any more than sitting next to a gay man for eight hours every day makes me an expert on rainbows.
But more to your point: I wouldn't waste my time anyone who would equate a conversation about rape to "cutesy outrage." Sorry, you'll have to go clawing up another tree for your attention grab.
But more to your point: I wouldn't waste my time anyone who would equate a conversation about rape to "cutesy outrage." Sorry, you'll have to go clawing up another tree for your attention grab.
106
@89 alithea. I'm right with you except: I'm a woman, but I don't live in constant fear of rape, I don't even live in fear of rape 1% of the time. Even though I live in Chicago, I work second shift, and I don't have a man (or a gun) to protect me. I don't have a problem with sending misogynists to the moon, but I'm not going to exaggerate my victimhood. I don't think it helps.
108
@103 I think it is equally asinine to not be able to call out somebody's idiocy just because you have a penis. Having a conversation without men means you're cutting out half of the world. I think your comment about how men need to STFU and cannot have any insight into the problem because they've never been told how to act (not true), never been told to watch out (not true), never been victimized (not true), and never had to fear other people (not true) is completely indicative of the problems this conversation has.
It's the same as saying a conversation about obesity and fat shaming couldn't involve people who haven't been fat.
Or that conversations about bullying can only involve the victims of bullying, because their POV is the only true one.
It's the same as saying a conversation about obesity and fat shaming couldn't involve people who haven't been fat.
Or that conversations about bullying can only involve the victims of bullying, because their POV is the only true one.
111
Here are some more tips from the SPD:
-When possible, travel with another person... particularly at night.
-Be aware of your surroundings and trust your instincts. Do not feel embarrassed to leave an uncomfortable situation.
-Walk with purpose and project an assertive and business-like image. Criminals will be discouraged if you do not appear vulnerable or easily intimidated.
These are tips they have posted for tourists. Bastards!
Patriarchs: Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em into the sun. (Because of sexist socialization which holds women back in math and science.)
-When possible, travel with another person... particularly at night.
-Be aware of your surroundings and trust your instincts. Do not feel embarrassed to leave an uncomfortable situation.
-Walk with purpose and project an assertive and business-like image. Criminals will be discouraged if you do not appear vulnerable or easily intimidated.
These are tips they have posted for tourists. Bastards!
Patriarchs: Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em into the sun. (Because of sexist socialization which holds women back in math and science.)
112
Last summer our household received a SPD neighborhood e-newsletter. It contained a notice that burglaries had gone up in our neighborhood recently and included several tips for how to minimize risk, including the advice to close first-floor windows at night.
I see now that this was all just a thinly-veiled victim-blaming insult, and that instead the police should have circulated a newsletter telling people not to burglarize homes.
I see now that this was all just a thinly-veiled victim-blaming insult, and that instead the police should have circulated a newsletter telling people not to burglarize homes.
114
Isn't this the same basic advice for not getting mugged? Don't we tell drivers to not leave valuables on the car?
115
@107 Do you mean my experience being raped, and taking women's studies in college, and volunteering at the rape crisis center, and hating (almost) all men in my early 20's (selectively seeing everything negative about men is super-easy) and "biting their heads off" every chance I got? Or do you mean getting over all that?
Of course I don't think my experience represents all women, but I have thought about these things. I'm not afraid of being sexually assaulted because I'm highly sensitive, and completely turned off by, the slightest whiff of sexist behavior. If I'm walking on the street, I do all the smart things everybody should do, AND I can give a very mean look.
Of course I don't think my experience represents all women, but I have thought about these things. I'm not afraid of being sexually assaulted because I'm highly sensitive, and completely turned off by, the slightest whiff of sexist behavior. If I'm walking on the street, I do all the smart things everybody should do, AND I can give a very mean look.
117
when jessica says 'other sloggers', i know EXACTLY who she's talkin' 'bout.
everybody, please read the book "The Female Fear", by Margaret Gordon and Stephanie Riger. it is a sociological study about the impact of the fear of rape on relationships, society, methods of coping with physical trauma, and how women severely restrict their activities, especially at night. you can buy it used on Amazon, or check it out from the Seattle Public Library.
think about it. how many times has a woman wanted to do something, but didn't because of the fear of rape?
everybody, please read the book "The Female Fear", by Margaret Gordon and Stephanie Riger. it is a sociological study about the impact of the fear of rape on relationships, society, methods of coping with physical trauma, and how women severely restrict their activities, especially at night. you can buy it used on Amazon, or check it out from the Seattle Public Library.
think about it. how many times has a woman wanted to do something, but didn't because of the fear of rape?
119
Alithea, you are an idiot and you're hateful. I will never fucking apologize for being a male. There is nothing I can do about this. But, I'll tell you what, it really pisses me off that there are people like you out there who short shrift what it is to be a male and a caring male at that and also a male with his own motherfucking opinions that don't do or die with some extremist feminist psychological contraptions.
The goddamned advice was just fine given the matters at hand and keeping yourself safe given the fucking moment you may find yourself under attack. Jesus Fuck. Anyone of us can fall under attack from some random fucker. It's not just the ladies. But because there is a vagina involved and the very fact that a MALE really can over power a FEMALE and a MALE as well means that the advice is fucking bunk and the tone is insulting.
No it's not. The advice is for what is out there at the moment you find yourself out there and should you find yourself in the position to defend yourself, you might think of this shit and it might save your life. Jesus. Save the fucking sermons when we can all stride the Earth together as one and free of fear. Until then, this shit is advice for women or anybody strolling around fucking Green Lake and etc at night when some unknown dude is chillin' around there.
The goddamned advice was just fine given the matters at hand and keeping yourself safe given the fucking moment you may find yourself under attack. Jesus Fuck. Anyone of us can fall under attack from some random fucker. It's not just the ladies. But because there is a vagina involved and the very fact that a MALE really can over power a FEMALE and a MALE as well means that the advice is fucking bunk and the tone is insulting.
No it's not. The advice is for what is out there at the moment you find yourself out there and should you find yourself in the position to defend yourself, you might think of this shit and it might save your life. Jesus. Save the fucking sermons when we can all stride the Earth together as one and free of fear. Until then, this shit is advice for women or anybody strolling around fucking Green Lake and etc at night when some unknown dude is chillin' around there.
120
Would it have been better to tell folks, "Don't pay attention to your surroundings, and location. Walk alone down dark alleys. If a threatening stranger approaches you, look down, and act afraid. People shouldn't need to take common sense precautions to avoid being victims of crime, and it wrong to suggest them to do so! Just make all criminals stop instead!"
121
Assuming they don't catch all rapists by sundown today, folks offended by the advice given by the police, what is your advice to women going out tonight?
122
@114
Yes, it's advice about how not to get mugged. Which, funnily enough, is a thing that is more likely to happen to men. You know what men don't get? All these oh-so helpful safety tips drilled into them from early childhood.
Rape is almost never like getting mugged for sex. Maybe, in this case, there are one or more weirdos out there who are making it temporarily, in a few neighborhoods, more like the threat of getting mugged for sex. But that's rare. So rare that a lot of women, like me, NEVER EVER worry about it. I just don't. I refuse. It's down there with "attacked by a serial killer" or "hit by falling debris" on my list of concerns. I live in Northgate and I'm still not gonna worry about it.
@121 My advice for women going out tonight is to go where you want, when you want. Be aware of where your bag or wallet is. Be aware of your surroundings. Sure, you don't want to get mugged or otherwise assaulted, but you also don't want to get hit by a car or step in dog shit. If somebody acts threatening toward you, don't be afraid to call 911. Have zero tolerance for sexist assholes.
Yes, it's advice about how not to get mugged. Which, funnily enough, is a thing that is more likely to happen to men. You know what men don't get? All these oh-so helpful safety tips drilled into them from early childhood.
Rape is almost never like getting mugged for sex. Maybe, in this case, there are one or more weirdos out there who are making it temporarily, in a few neighborhoods, more like the threat of getting mugged for sex. But that's rare. So rare that a lot of women, like me, NEVER EVER worry about it. I just don't. I refuse. It's down there with "attacked by a serial killer" or "hit by falling debris" on my list of concerns. I live in Northgate and I'm still not gonna worry about it.
@121 My advice for women going out tonight is to go where you want, when you want. Be aware of where your bag or wallet is. Be aware of your surroundings. Sure, you don't want to get mugged or otherwise assaulted, but you also don't want to get hit by a car or step in dog shit. If somebody acts threatening toward you, don't be afraid to call 911. Have zero tolerance for sexist assholes.
123
122, You a basically paraphrasing the police advice, and to answer your post at 29, they do give similar advice to avoid other crimes.
http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention…
http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention…
124
@122. You're wrong. Men so get self protection tips drilled in from birth. But, you wouldn't know because you're not a man. So, because you have a vagina, you cannot comment on the male experience.
125
This is pathetic. The people posting this advice are trying to help, and you've decided to shit on them because they've had the integrity to approach a subject that you're pissed off about. And since you know that no rapist will ever care about your anger, you're lashing out at whoever is willing to stand around and take the abuse.
The worst possible response against defeatist fatalism ("we'll never stop rape, so let's just let women deal with the problem") is irresponsible idealism ("don't take precautions because you shouldn't have to"). You're picking the latter argument because you want to impugn that the police are taking the former position. Be angry, but don't be stupidly indignant.
Look, we get it: women SHOULD NOT HAVE TO constantly be on the guard against rape. People shouldn't have to guard against any type of crime, whether it's robbery, swindling, violence, bias attacks, etc. But until this barbaric world is the way it should be, lock your house, don't leave your keys in the car, watch your money, be alert on the street. There are monsters out there - thousands and thousands of them. They don't give a shit about how the world should be. They are a cowardly lot and they look for easy targets. Don't be one.
The worst possible response against defeatist fatalism ("we'll never stop rape, so let's just let women deal with the problem") is irresponsible idealism ("don't take precautions because you shouldn't have to"). You're picking the latter argument because you want to impugn that the police are taking the former position. Be angry, but don't be stupidly indignant.
Look, we get it: women SHOULD NOT HAVE TO constantly be on the guard against rape. People shouldn't have to guard against any type of crime, whether it's robbery, swindling, violence, bias attacks, etc. But until this barbaric world is the way it should be, lock your house, don't leave your keys in the car, watch your money, be alert on the street. There are monsters out there - thousands and thousands of them. They don't give a shit about how the world should be. They are a cowardly lot and they look for easy targets. Don't be one.
126
Don't want to get raped? Shoot yourself!
Thinking about raping someone? SHOOT YOURSELF.
GUNS GUNS GUNS. YAAAAAAYYYYYYYY
Thinking about raping someone? SHOOT YOURSELF.
GUNS GUNS GUNS. YAAAAAAYYYYYYYY
127
@125: I'm arguing that it should not only be on women to protect themselves. Society could be doing a helluva whole lot more to teach its sons to not sexually assault other people. The advice just as easily goes both ways. Don't. Rape. People.
128
@127
I agree with you. I think either extreme by itself will never succeed, and both together have the best shot at making a real difference. In that line of thinking, condemning a good-faith effort from law enforcement to give some practical advice is not a great decision.
I agree with you. I think either extreme by itself will never succeed, and both together have the best shot at making a real difference. In that line of thinking, condemning a good-faith effort from law enforcement to give some practical advice is not a great decision.
129
As someone said upthread, if women are telling you that advice such as this is not helpful, possibly you should listen to them.
Where's the initiative to tell men not to rape? And tell 'bystander' men how to intervene?
Where's the initiative to tell men not to rape? And tell 'bystander' men how to intervene?
130
@127 That's not what this post is about.
You can make up your own points to argue about and try to win on your own terms. But, that's a completely different argument.
This post is not about the culture shift that needs to happen. It's what Anna strives for this post to be about. But, this post is actually about misplaced anger at a police officer telling women to protect themselves in the face of a very real threat that is currently aimed at them. This post is about getting police to not remind women on what good safety practices are because, supposedly, its been drilled into women's heads more than it has for guys...and its so UNFAIR. Never mind that there's a threat out there attacking random women...one of the more uncommon types of sexual assault predators.
And, for the record, I think that talking about rape and making women empowered is a good thing. But, even when rape and sexual assault statistics drop drastically, there will never be a Zero status due to random sickos. And, giving self-protection advice will always need to be part of the system, regardless of how much you shouldn't need it.
You can make up your own points to argue about and try to win on your own terms. But, that's a completely different argument.
This post is not about the culture shift that needs to happen. It's what Anna strives for this post to be about. But, this post is actually about misplaced anger at a police officer telling women to protect themselves in the face of a very real threat that is currently aimed at them. This post is about getting police to not remind women on what good safety practices are because, supposedly, its been drilled into women's heads more than it has for guys...and its so UNFAIR. Never mind that there's a threat out there attacking random women...one of the more uncommon types of sexual assault predators.
And, for the record, I think that talking about rape and making women empowered is a good thing. But, even when rape and sexual assault statistics drop drastically, there will never be a Zero status due to random sickos. And, giving self-protection advice will always need to be part of the system, regardless of how much you shouldn't need it.
131
129, If the advice is not helpful, and if for some reason, we can't teach rapists not to rape by end of day, what is your advice to women tonight when they go out?
(Men are told not to rape, and believe it or not, most don't. Have you never seen the "No Means No!" campaign? It's taught in high school. People also are taught not to lie, cheat, steal, and murder. Most people don't do those things, but it doesn't always sink in with all people.)
(Men are told not to rape, and believe it or not, most don't. Have you never seen the "No Means No!" campaign? It's taught in high school. People also are taught not to lie, cheat, steal, and murder. Most people don't do those things, but it doesn't always sink in with all people.)
132
@129 if evangelical Christians are saying they're being oppressed based on their experience, should you listen to them?
In other words, group think is a real thing, and any member of society, both inside and outside the group, should be able to vet the valid points from the shrill bullshit.
In other words, group think is a real thing, and any member of society, both inside and outside the group, should be able to vet the valid points from the shrill bullshit.
133
@124 I probably shouldn't respond, based on my zero tolerance for sexist assholes policy, but my assertion that men don't get such tips drilled into them from birth is based, in part, on having brothers, who did not get such tips drilled into them from birth, and being married to a man, who has shared a great many of his growing-up experiences with me, which also did not include having such tips drilled into him from birth.
Sure, it's anecdotal data. But so is yours.
The experience of being expected to live your life sequestered and fearful is nearly universal with women in this culture, and has left many of us with a lot of anger toward the social forces that still try to get us to live that way.
A LOT of anger.
Too much anger for fear. Come over here and let me punch you in the face.
Sure, it's anecdotal data. But so is yours.
The experience of being expected to live your life sequestered and fearful is nearly universal with women in this culture, and has left many of us with a lot of anger toward the social forces that still try to get us to live that way.
A LOT of anger.
Too much anger for fear. Come over here and let me punch you in the face.
135
133, so your parents never told you brothers not to talk to, take candy from, or get into cars with strangers? Weren't told to yell and scream if someone tried to grab them?
136
@133 Maybe I and the men I know we're over protected. Or, maybe we just were around rough parts. Or, whatever. Or maybe its because I know the geeks, gays, nerds, and those considered "weaker" than average men. But, in the men I know, these tips have become common sense rituals. My experience can't be universalized, just as yours can't be universalized.
Maybe it's because society feels the need to protect the "weaker" people. Or that its women who seem to be getting pissed off for the right reasons, but sometimes, such as in this case, at the wrong things. Like, police telling an already existing predator they shouldn't rape is going to stop him from raping. For reals.
Of course, telling you your anger here is misplaced is only going to piss you off more. But, it's not like most of the women here are hearing anything from a point of view that doesn't reinforce their already established beliefs.
You can punch me in the face, only if I get to punch you back. The moment a girl hits is the moment she gets hit back. You want to be treated equally, right? ;-)
Maybe it's because society feels the need to protect the "weaker" people. Or that its women who seem to be getting pissed off for the right reasons, but sometimes, such as in this case, at the wrong things. Like, police telling an already existing predator they shouldn't rape is going to stop him from raping. For reals.
Of course, telling you your anger here is misplaced is only going to piss you off more. But, it's not like most of the women here are hearing anything from a point of view that doesn't reinforce their already established beliefs.
You can punch me in the face, only if I get to punch you back. The moment a girl hits is the moment she gets hit back. You want to be treated equally, right? ;-)
137
@83, were your mother and father brother and sister when they conceived you?
Are you genetically predisposed to stupidity? Or are you stupid out of laziness and ignorance?
Unless you have some magical telekinetic superpowers, you can not control the mind, intent or actions of a rapist. This is a simple truth.
When you're out driving, you have no control over the operators of other vehicles. Hence, seatbelts and airbags.
And, to use your ridiculously ignorant strawman argument-- you have no control over hurricanes or tornados. Hence storm shelters.
There is nothing wrong with being educated and prepared.
But I don't know why I even bother trying to explain this to you. You'll always find something wrong with any and everything.
Your faux-psuedo-intellectual-feminist outrage over the advice is misguided, obnoxious and ignorant.
Are you genetically predisposed to stupidity? Or are you stupid out of laziness and ignorance?
Unless you have some magical telekinetic superpowers, you can not control the mind, intent or actions of a rapist. This is a simple truth.
When you're out driving, you have no control over the operators of other vehicles. Hence, seatbelts and airbags.
And, to use your ridiculously ignorant strawman argument-- you have no control over hurricanes or tornados. Hence storm shelters.
There is nothing wrong with being educated and prepared.
But I don't know why I even bother trying to explain this to you. You'll always find something wrong with any and everything.
Your faux-psuedo-intellectual-feminist outrage over the advice is misguided, obnoxious and ignorant.
138
These arguments are somehow even more circle-jerky than the gun debates.
The men here need to keep in mind that the content or intent of the tips simply does not matter. They make women feel like children who are being talked down to and made responsible for their victimization. As men, we take the literal over the emotional, and so tend to not care about feelings if a good result can possibly be achieved. Emotions are much more vivid and important to women than they are to us.
The women here need to try to understand that the men are simply seeing a logical gap and trying to understand it. But, they likely never will because to understand that gap requires and emotional conection that the vast majority of men have no reference to, and do not want to. Being men, we (comparatively) operate poorly in the realm of emotion and empathy, as it was never meant to be our strong suit.
We both need to understand that the people commenting on the horribleness of the tips are actually in the minority. Classes that teach basic self-defense and awareness tactics like these are actually the most popular classes requested and taken by women, according to the leading rape prevention and education organizations. So it appears that not every woman feels comfortable with their grasp on the issue, or feels like such things are victim blaming.
Perhaps it is not an issue of men speaking for women's experiences, or women speaking for men's experiences, but rather any individual speaking for any other individual's experiences.
The men here need to keep in mind that the content or intent of the tips simply does not matter. They make women feel like children who are being talked down to and made responsible for their victimization. As men, we take the literal over the emotional, and so tend to not care about feelings if a good result can possibly be achieved. Emotions are much more vivid and important to women than they are to us.
The women here need to try to understand that the men are simply seeing a logical gap and trying to understand it. But, they likely never will because to understand that gap requires and emotional conection that the vast majority of men have no reference to, and do not want to. Being men, we (comparatively) operate poorly in the realm of emotion and empathy, as it was never meant to be our strong suit.
We both need to understand that the people commenting on the horribleness of the tips are actually in the minority. Classes that teach basic self-defense and awareness tactics like these are actually the most popular classes requested and taken by women, according to the leading rape prevention and education organizations. So it appears that not every woman feels comfortable with their grasp on the issue, or feels like such things are victim blaming.
Perhaps it is not an issue of men speaking for women's experiences, or women speaking for men's experiences, but rather any individual speaking for any other individual's experiences.
139
Attempting to ridicule people into seeing things differently by reiterating the same point with increasingly bizarre and patronizing analogies not only misses the initial point of this post, it reinforces it. This thread is like a fractal of paternalism, where the same problem keeps repeating on itself in smaller and smaller increments.
140
@139 *pats head patronizingly* *gives award for most pointless post*
/a content free post for a content free generalized attack
/a content free post for a content free generalized attack
141
@140, Coming from someone who is so committed to having a point he's made the same one a dozen times in a single thread, that really hurts.
142
@141 Unlike you, I have been trying to participate instead of actually having no point other than "Please, just listen to the women and follow what they say."
'Tis better to repeat a point than to have no point at all.
'Tis better to repeat a point than to have no point at all.
143
I know, it's futile and off-topic to defer to the opinions of the people who are the very subject of the post and who draw their beliefs from direct, first-hand experience, particularly when analogies about car safety and religious fundamentalists are 100% applicable in every conceivable way.
Anyway, I've already been humbled and shamed and have conceded defeat but I guess you'll need to pile on at least 10 more times before you feel you’ve been heard. Please carry on.
Anyway, I've already been humbled and shamed and have conceded defeat but I guess you'll need to pile on at least 10 more times before you feel you’ve been heard. Please carry on.
144
@143 Are you saying that religious fundamentalists don't have a right to their own point of view? Or, are you saying we should be selective in who we actually listen to?
Come on, troll. You can do better than this.
Come on, troll. You can do better than this.
145
I've asked multiple times the women who are offended by the police's safety tips their opinion. Being that rapists are probably not going to have an epiphany that rape is wrong anytime soon, what advice would they offer women until that happens?
146
@145 I'm not offended by the advice. But you're still asking the wrong question. The advice they should offer should be to men to police themselves and other men. To not look the other way if they see something sketchy/suspicious. To offer assistance and when/how that can be done in a non-threatening way (particularly if you're a man in a couple -- men with their girlfriends are typically safe and can extend offers of help without being creepy). I'm not sure what else - any ideas?
This advice shouldn't be offered in lieu of advice for women, but alongside. It would rightly send the message that rape is something both men and women should be trying to prevent.
This advice shouldn't be offered in lieu of advice for women, but alongside. It would rightly send the message that rape is something both men and women should be trying to prevent.
147
@145: it's not the advice per se. It's that we've heard it and heard it and heard it and heard it and heard it. And it's always changing, getting more and more restrictive, making our lives smaller and smaller, and in the end we still get raped. We don't go to the store after dark. We don't listen to music when we work out, or wear our hair in a pony tail when we run. We don't ride the elevator alone with a man if we work late (if we work late) but we can't take the stairs either. We try not to rent a place on the ground floor. Ever. We lock ourselves into our cars every time we go anywhere. Not getting a parking place close to our destination isn't a matter of irritation, it's one of anxiety. Everything you as a man take for granted, just livin' your life, we have to weigh and worry about. Misanthrope will say, "Whatever. Men have to watch their backs in bad neighborhoods! Common sense! Detroit!" Women have to watch their backs in broad daylight in the parking lot at Sears in Bellevue. Following all this advice Is. Not. Working.
It's fucked up. We're tired of it. Being told to do the same thing over and over with the same shitty results? And we're being unreasonable and whiny when we say it's not working?
No.
Time to try something else.
It's fucked up. We're tired of it. Being told to do the same thing over and over with the same shitty results? And we're being unreasonable and whiny when we say it's not working?
No.
Time to try something else.
148
146, The vast majority of rapes don't happen in the presence of other people. Rapists look for victims in isolated situations. Most men, or policemen are going to intervene if the see a rape happening.
Again what advice would you offer women since rapists are not going change their ways anytime soon, and most women they target won't have someone else nearby to help them.
Again what advice would you offer women since rapists are not going change their ways anytime soon, and most women they target won't have someone else nearby to help them.
149
You can't fix crazy. Whether it be a rapist or a realist, it really doesn't fucking matter. You can't fix crazy. If a crazy person is born male or a crazy person is born female.
You wanna know how many times a dude has hurt my feelings in life? Zip. You wanna know how many times my feelings have been hurt by a female -- too many to count. Now why is this?
Because there is is confluence of moods, gender influence specific to social guidelines and also what you are supposed to look and act like given a certain age. You can't blame a male for being a male and you cannot blame a female for being a female. It's really not a big deal until bullshit starts happening. It happens both ways. I am of both camps as I do consider myself a "realist feminist" but of the male gender. Yet I am also 100% non violent in all cases of anything. However, the backlash from those who think that this ADVICE is demeaning need to check their history books. Whatever. None of us want to live in a world where shit like this goes on. This is why we always when needed protect one another and always, First Do No Harm.
When some bitch tells me to not help her after she's been attacked and I am the nearest one on scene and in full gentle respect and concern is the day I will fucking throw in the towel. Coming from a male feminist, fuck you militant, female feminists. You're making no sense and you're also being the exception to the rules you espouse.
We live on Earth together and we take care of one another.
You wanna know how many times a dude has hurt my feelings in life? Zip. You wanna know how many times my feelings have been hurt by a female -- too many to count. Now why is this?
Because there is is confluence of moods, gender influence specific to social guidelines and also what you are supposed to look and act like given a certain age. You can't blame a male for being a male and you cannot blame a female for being a female. It's really not a big deal until bullshit starts happening. It happens both ways. I am of both camps as I do consider myself a "realist feminist" but of the male gender. Yet I am also 100% non violent in all cases of anything. However, the backlash from those who think that this ADVICE is demeaning need to check their history books. Whatever. None of us want to live in a world where shit like this goes on. This is why we always when needed protect one another and always, First Do No Harm.
When some bitch tells me to not help her after she's been attacked and I am the nearest one on scene and in full gentle respect and concern is the day I will fucking throw in the towel. Coming from a male feminist, fuck you militant, female feminists. You're making no sense and you're also being the exception to the rules you espouse.
We live on Earth together and we take care of one another.
150
147, It's a given that women shouldn't have to go through this, (nobody should have to deal with any kind of assault, or crime.) but all the rapists in the world are not going to suddenly disappear. The world would definitely be a better place if we could will all the rapists away, but wishing and hoping won't get you out of his arms. What advice do you have to offer to women until the time that all rapists turn over a new leaf?
151
@148: Way to cherry pick. WxPDX said that they had no problem with the advice, but that it isn't enough. It isn't working. More attention needs to be placed on the role of men in the prevention of rape . And then, after offering some ideas she asked you if you had any.
As a man. Do you? Anything new?
As a man. Do you? Anything new?
152
@150: What part of it's not working do you not understand. I'm not talking about "wishing". I 'm talking about a change of focus. And I'm asking you again:
Do you have anything to add besides too bad, so sad, sux to be a gal?
Because look just one comment up at ortolan comparing rape with getting his feelings hurt. Try starting with him.
Do you have anything to add besides too bad, so sad, sux to be a gal?
Because look just one comment up at ortolan comparing rape with getting his feelings hurt. Try starting with him.
153
151, so the advice is hope that a man is nearby to save you if you're being raped, even if rapes almost always happen in isolated situations?
Last fall, two of my closest friends got shot. One died, and the other is still in the hospital. They were sitting on the front stoop of their building at 2am. Was it their fault that they got shot? Absolutely not, but I don't sit on my front step at 2am. Should I have to deal with that restriction? Again, absolutely not. My advice is do what I do. I do my best to avoid dangerous situations. I stay out of high crime areas. I don't walk down dark alleys. (Another friend got beaten and mugged when he ducked into an alley to pee.) I keep aware of where I am, and who's near me. I look people in the eye, and walk with an assertive gait. I look for escape routes, etc.
Last fall, two of my closest friends got shot. One died, and the other is still in the hospital. They were sitting on the front stoop of their building at 2am. Was it their fault that they got shot? Absolutely not, but I don't sit on my front step at 2am. Should I have to deal with that restriction? Again, absolutely not. My advice is do what I do. I do my best to avoid dangerous situations. I stay out of high crime areas. I don't walk down dark alleys. (Another friend got beaten and mugged when he ducked into an alley to pee.) I keep aware of where I am, and who's near me. I look people in the eye, and walk with an assertive gait. I look for escape routes, etc.
154
Hahaha. Whatever. Quit being exceptions to rules, Lissa. You don't fucking rape or hurt in any fucking capacity ever. Jesus, is this so hard? It was advice and not "my" feelings. Yes, I am an idealist too, but I don't put up with neither male nor female pricks. I mean, what is so fucking hard about facing fucking the reality of when you're walking around at night fucking alone? Them's the breaks and it was simple fucking advice.
155
152, What can I tell ortolan that will prevent a rape? What lesson does he need to be taught that will stop rapists from raping?
156
ortolan, have you ever raped anyone? Have you ever witnessed a rape and did nothing? Would you ignore a rape if it was happening in front of you. Were you never told that rape is wrong? Are those lessons you need to learn?
157
@147 I say that I watch my back in broad daylight as well. At dusk. At the bus stop. Walking to the grocery store.
Men are frequently on alert.
But, really, You. Don't. Get. It. Your post @151 proves you don't get it. This situation is not dealing with a guy who may be a good guy but occasionally sexually assaults a woman. Somebody who would do it in front of a crowd, or even take advantage of a drunk/passed out woman. The kind of casual seexual assault that is far more common and needs far more addressing.
This particular case, what this original post is about, is about a guy who knows what he's doing is wrong but gets off on it anyways. He makes sure that women he assaults are alone and random.
I know, I know. Sexual assault isn't usually random, blah blah blah. But, in this case it completely is. It's a stranger preying on women. On women generally alone. Three of the four cases were by the same dude, possibly a methhead, while it was dark. You can't depend on men to help you if there are NO FUCKING MEN AROUND. And, sorry, if there's a methhead running around attacking women who are alone, then yeah, the advice is for the women who are going to be doing things alone. Telling a methhead not to assault women is just as useful as telling a methhead that he shouldn't do meth.
So, while I'm not advocating no responsibility for men; chances are, when the attacker is lurking, there will be no men around. And save the cultural shift conversation for when its needed. When a judge tells a rape victim they shouldn't have been dressed like a slut. Or, when a lawyer defends a father molesting his daughter with, "she asked for it." Those are wrong.
It's moronic to get pissed over advice that needs repeating because there are obvious circumstances, right now, when women are getting attacked: alone, after dark, North Seattle. Helpful reminders are reminders because this threat exists.
Alerting when extra vigilance is needed is what the police are for. Obviously they see women doing things that put them at risk when there is a threat, and want to prevent another crime from happening until the threat is neutralized.
Of course, this is going to fall on your deaf ears, as you've always been the type to advocate against female responsibility and for calling people misogynists if they think you're being unreasonable.
More...
Men are frequently on alert.
But, really, You. Don't. Get. It. Your post @151 proves you don't get it. This situation is not dealing with a guy who may be a good guy but occasionally sexually assaults a woman. Somebody who would do it in front of a crowd, or even take advantage of a drunk/passed out woman. The kind of casual seexual assault that is far more common and needs far more addressing.
This particular case, what this original post is about, is about a guy who knows what he's doing is wrong but gets off on it anyways. He makes sure that women he assaults are alone and random.
I know, I know. Sexual assault isn't usually random, blah blah blah. But, in this case it completely is. It's a stranger preying on women. On women generally alone. Three of the four cases were by the same dude, possibly a methhead, while it was dark. You can't depend on men to help you if there are NO FUCKING MEN AROUND. And, sorry, if there's a methhead running around attacking women who are alone, then yeah, the advice is for the women who are going to be doing things alone. Telling a methhead not to assault women is just as useful as telling a methhead that he shouldn't do meth.
So, while I'm not advocating no responsibility for men; chances are, when the attacker is lurking, there will be no men around. And save the cultural shift conversation for when its needed. When a judge tells a rape victim they shouldn't have been dressed like a slut. Or, when a lawyer defends a father molesting his daughter with, "she asked for it." Those are wrong.
It's moronic to get pissed over advice that needs repeating because there are obvious circumstances, right now, when women are getting attacked: alone, after dark, North Seattle. Helpful reminders are reminders because this threat exists.
Alerting when extra vigilance is needed is what the police are for. Obviously they see women doing things that put them at risk when there is a threat, and want to prevent another crime from happening until the threat is neutralized.
Of course, this is going to fall on your deaf ears, as you've always been the type to advocate against female responsibility and for calling people misogynists if they think you're being unreasonable.
158
Oh and to echo Rob my best friend had his throat slashed in 2007 in the middle of a street in Denver. Do you not think this was painful as well? He died. He wasn't raped, but he was killed by a murderer who took quite a bit out of a lot of us. It happens to us all, Lissa. This is why we look out for one another and also why I can't stand condescending pricks such as you. We all go through it and we're not evil. When we find it, we attempt to snuff it out as best and as peacefully we can. Again, do yourself a favor and not be an exception to the rule.
159
@153: I'm sorry, I thought it would be Misanthrope who would trot out the "men have to watch their back in dangerous neighborhoods" argument, but you beat him to it. As I said women have to watch their back in broad daylight in the parking lot of Sears in Bellevue.
Do you have any ideas, since all the advice that is being given to us is demonstrably inadequate?
Do you?
Do you have any ideas, since all the advice that is being given to us is demonstrably inadequate?
Do you?
160
159, men get killed in broad daylight. I am always aware of my surroundings day and night, even in the parking lots of malls. Men get robbed, beaten and killed even in broad daylight at shopping malls, but I guess in your mind, it's less tragic if a man is a victim. Perhaps you need to learn?
161
Lissa, here is how I was raised. When I was like 8 or 9 we were walking out of a mall in fucking Denver somewhere -- me and my dad. It was late at night and there were maybe two cars in the underground parking lot. A lady was ahead of us and she exited the building but we were behind her. My dad grabbed my shoulder and said "NEVER WHEN A WOMAN IS ALONE FOLLOW HER INTO A PARKING LOT". So we waited for her to get into her car and leave while we just waited. So there you go. I've always lived that. I also still hate both female and male asshats. It's a world of common courtesy and reciprocal respect and protection from lunatics.
Again, Jesus, get with it.
Again, Jesus, get with it.
162
@154 thru 158:
Gentlemen these are the facts. Women are told over and over to obey an increasingly restrictive set of rules which while preventing us from doing what you take for granted, still do not even put a dent in the problem.
It. Is. Not. Working.
Pointing that out, and calling for shift in focus is only logical. When something isn't working, try something new.
Now, again, since all this advice being given to women is demonstrably inadequate, do you have any ideas?
Anything? Besides a variation on "It's Chinatown"?
Gentlemen these are the facts. Women are told over and over to obey an increasingly restrictive set of rules which while preventing us from doing what you take for granted, still do not even put a dent in the problem.
It. Is. Not. Working.
Pointing that out, and calling for shift in focus is only logical. When something isn't working, try something new.
Now, again, since all this advice being given to women is demonstrably inadequate, do you have any ideas?
Anything? Besides a variation on "It's Chinatown"?
163
@160: No. Try talking to me instead of arguing with the Lissa you've built in your head.
Again:
Since the current approach is not working, do you have any new ideas on how to prevent rape?
Again:
Since the current approach is not working, do you have any new ideas on how to prevent rape?
165
162, exactly what can't you do that I take for granted?
What new focus is going to get rapists to stop raping? (Or murderers from murdering? Or muggers from mugging? Etc?)
What is your advice to women, since rapists are not going to vanish from the planet? (Nor are murderers and muggers)
What new focus is going to get rapists to stop raping? (Or murderers from murdering? Or muggers from mugging? Etc?)
What is your advice to women, since rapists are not going to vanish from the planet? (Nor are murderers and muggers)
166
Those are your rules then, Lissa, not mine. If I advocate for the fact this police advice is a good rule of thumb doesn't mean that I don't think you are any less than me. It just shows me that you are an exception to the rule of equality, because equality means everyone. And by everyone, we take care of each other. If you do not think that a free and liberated male from the stupidity of old school thought isn't to be trusted, then nor are you. We are out there and we understand we are male and we also understand and have many a time stood the fuck up for you and yours. Except we consider you as brethren. Just don't be a dick about it. You can't fix crazy. Focus on crazy not the male jackboot you think exists. It doesn't.
167
163, You haven't shown the slightest bit of concern for male victims of crime.
All the precautions I take to avoid being the victim of a crime hasn't stopped men from being victims of crime. Does it mean there's no value in me being cautious and aware in every scenario?
When you say change focus, what change of focus will stop rapists from raping?
All the precautions I take to avoid being the victim of a crime hasn't stopped men from being victims of crime. Does it mean there's no value in me being cautious and aware in every scenario?
When you say change focus, what change of focus will stop rapists from raping?
168
@162 if those rules were followed, why were there women who were attacked after dark when they were alone?
If those rules were followed, why did two women literally run into me on the sidewalk while on their phones after dark tonight?
Just wondering.
If those rules were followed, why did two women literally run into me on the sidewalk while on their phones after dark tonight?
Just wondering.
169
It's ok gentlemen. You can say that you don't actually have any ideas.
Here's a spoon, let me feed you. Once you've looked over these links, since you're grown, and have the power of google at your command, you can look for more ideas about how you can help change the culture, and do something to stop rape.
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/male…
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-conte…
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2…
Here's a spoon, let me feed you. Once you've looked over these links, since you're grown, and have the power of google at your command, you can look for more ideas about how you can help change the culture, and do something to stop rape.
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/male…
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-conte…
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2…
170
@169 How does this help stop a rape of an independent woman, alone, and victimized by a sicko methhead?
Please. Womansplain to us so so dense men. Maybe Lissa's Digest it.
Please. Womansplain to us so so dense men. Maybe Lissa's Digest it.
171
With all due respect, the knee jerk outrage is also tiresome
I think it's funny. Not to mention classic displacement, right out of an elementary psych class.
I think it's funny. Not to mention classic displacement, right out of an elementary psych class.
172
"Here's a spoon, let me feed you. Once you've looked over these links, since you're grown, and have the power of google at your command, you can look for more ideas about how you can help change the culture, and do something to stop rape."
Hahaha, again, dammit. I really didn't want to. Do you not think we're aware of any of this? Dude, the condescension is getting even more lame. You're obviously not talking to idiots here. Heaven forbid we call you one. Shit is seriously going over some of yours heads.
Is there some pro rape board any of us can attest to not rape to that we can be more welcome? Jesus, I am so close to going into the "women are all crazy" rant because my feelings were hurt. Fucking, christ. What it so goddamn difficult about the people you would call 911 for for their advice? Good Lord, this isn't fucking Feminism 101. Just deal with it. We're all here.
Don't you understand that men DO STOP RAPE? I don't need links and I don't need berated over "tone". Jesus, again, this is retarded and the reason I'm even still here because I find the trajectories of this conversation quite interesting. There are no ifs ands or buts, the advice was solid.
Hahaha, again, dammit. I really didn't want to. Do you not think we're aware of any of this? Dude, the condescension is getting even more lame. You're obviously not talking to idiots here. Heaven forbid we call you one. Shit is seriously going over some of yours heads.
Is there some pro rape board any of us can attest to not rape to that we can be more welcome? Jesus, I am so close to going into the "women are all crazy" rant because my feelings were hurt. Fucking, christ. What it so goddamn difficult about the people you would call 911 for for their advice? Good Lord, this isn't fucking Feminism 101. Just deal with it. We're all here.
Don't you understand that men DO STOP RAPE? I don't need links and I don't need berated over "tone". Jesus, again, this is retarded and the reason I'm even still here because I find the trajectories of this conversation quite interesting. There are no ifs ands or buts, the advice was solid.
173
You do yourself and injustice Misanthrope!
You see I have hope that you are capable of reading and assimilating information on your own.
I look forward to the ideas you come up with on how to prevent rape.
You see I have hope that you are capable of reading and assimilating information on your own.
I look forward to the ideas you come up with on how to prevent rape.
174
Lissa, hate to tell you, but you're basically an idiot. I don't know how much information could be directed your general way and how one could not get it. That one being you.
175
It's quite simple ortolan. That advice isn't enough. It isn't working. When something doesn't work, and doesn't work, and doesn't work, you try something else.
We need to try something else.
Do you have any ideas? The men on the links I provided have some. Go take a look.
We need to try something else.
Do you have any ideas? The men on the links I provided have some. Go take a look.
176
@173 I asked first. You see, I think you have no answer and are just trolling for misandrist shits and giggles. But, maybe you do have a purpose. So, womansplain away. We eagerly await.
How does fighting misogyny in gaming protect a woman walking alone tonight in Greenwood with a known methy predator at large?
And, besides, you never answered my first question. If the over-repeated rules are being followed, how did three separate women get attacked when walking or running alone in the dark?
How does fighting misogyny in gaming protect a woman walking alone tonight in Greenwood with a known methy predator at large?
And, besides, you never answered my first question. If the over-repeated rules are being followed, how did three separate women get attacked when walking or running alone in the dark?
177
I knew you'd go for that one.:) As you know, rape doesn't happen in a vacuum. Fighting misogyny with in the culture would, of course, have nothing but a positive effect in the efforts against rape.
But you know that.
What about the other links I provided? I hope you found them useful in framing your own plans on how to help prevent rape.
But you know that.
What about the other links I provided? I hope you found them useful in framing your own plans on how to help prevent rape.
179
Nope. The original article is about the fact that these rules are not working. We are told again and again to do this, to do that, we live our lives in fear, and we are still raped.
When something does not work, you try something new.
You have yet to offer any alternative, or even anything in addition to following these rules, to prevent rape.
And preventing rape really is the point isn't it? Isn't that what that list of dos and don'ts quoted was supposed to be (how ever poorly) in aid of?
So. Again. Since the current approach is inadequate, do you have any new ideas? And why, since it is so obviously failing, are you so invested in the status quo?
Really Misanthrope, if we all want rape to be prevented, then we're on the same side. And we need to find a better way, since this one is broken, and always has been. wxPDX had some thoughts. The men on the links I provided have some thoughts. Culture can be changed. Why not try to help change it rather than throwing your hands in the air? I've seen you on other threads, on other topics, just as huge and difficult, and you haven't given up the fight.
Fight for this too.
When something does not work, you try something new.
You have yet to offer any alternative, or even anything in addition to following these rules, to prevent rape.
And preventing rape really is the point isn't it? Isn't that what that list of dos and don'ts quoted was supposed to be (how ever poorly) in aid of?
So. Again. Since the current approach is inadequate, do you have any new ideas? And why, since it is so obviously failing, are you so invested in the status quo?
Really Misanthrope, if we all want rape to be prevented, then we're on the same side. And we need to find a better way, since this one is broken, and always has been. wxPDX had some thoughts. The men on the links I provided have some thoughts. Culture can be changed. Why not try to help change it rather than throwing your hands in the air? I've seen you on other threads, on other topics, just as huge and difficult, and you haven't given up the fight.
Fight for this too.
180
@179 Deflection AGAIN.
How does changing the culture help the independent woman walking alone tonight, tomorrow or Saturday?
How does changing the culture help the independent woman walking alone tonight, tomorrow or Saturday?
181
How does not changing the culture help?
It won't happen over night, but if we stick with what isn't working, it won't happen at all. And what we are doing now isn't working.
You know that.
For change to happen, you have to let go of the status quo Misanthrope.
It won't happen over night, but if we stick with what isn't working, it won't happen at all. And what we are doing now isn't working.
You know that.
For change to happen, you have to let go of the status quo Misanthrope.
182
Changing the culture does help, just don't offend the "changers" because then we'll just give up. This is an issue of safety. My mom used to complain about pain in her breasts because of how "she now had to wear seatbelts" back in the 80s -- back in lap belt days. Dude, just don't get me started on the "women are crazy" tip. I don't wanna go there. But I can and will. Culture is always changing, you're part of it as well. But you WILL NOT CHANGE the fact that a dude in the night can overcome you!
Don't you get this? Lissa, we get the grander issues here. But the day to day or night to night shit is good advice when needed and obviously, it is needed if some asshole is still out there.
Don't you get this? Lissa, we get the grander issues here. But the day to day or night to night shit is good advice when needed and obviously, it is needed if some asshole is still out there.
183
@181 Deflection AGAIN.
How does changing the culture help the independent woman walking alone tonight, tomorrow or Saturday?
How does changing the culture help the independent woman walking alone tonight, tomorrow or Saturday?
184
You can't be saying that if the culture doesn't change by Saturday then there is no point.
Changing the culture to accept marriage equality didn't happen in 72 hours, and indeed, is an ongoing fight still. Changing the culture to prevent rape will take time as well.
Wait.
Are you trying to get me to say that there's no 100% way to prevent by Saturday a woman alone at night from getting raped, so she best watch out and follow the rules? Is that it?
Really? Is that your argument against changing an approach to rape prevention that isn't working?
Tell me that's not what you're saying.
Changing the culture to accept marriage equality didn't happen in 72 hours, and indeed, is an ongoing fight still. Changing the culture to prevent rape will take time as well.
Wait.
Are you trying to get me to say that there's no 100% way to prevent by Saturday a woman alone at night from getting raped, so she best watch out and follow the rules? Is that it?
Really? Is that your argument against changing an approach to rape prevention that isn't working?
Tell me that's not what you're saying.
185
Okay Lissa, I will concede that changing the culture would probably help, but on the off chance that we can't change the culture by the end of the day, (I'm a pessimism, I know.) and rapists don't have A Very Special Episode Of Blossom moment before sundown, what is your advice for women?
186
I should add, What's your advice for women while we wait for the culture to change. Are you saying that women are helpless until then? Until this major societal shift happens, women should just believe that there is nothing they can do to better protect themselves?
187
@184 this Very Special Post brought to you by Anna is not about the culture as a whole. It's about a very specific threat that exists right now in real life by one specific methy stranger.
So, tell me. What would you say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
So, tell me. What would you say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
188
I fully agree that women are under attack in our society, and that needs to change; but the idea that the SPD should respond to a string of attacks by trying to end rape altogether - not provide practical tips that could help individual women avoid being victimized by an actual sicko who exists right now - is a stupid argument on its face. That's not the job of the SPD. They fight crime, not the causes of crime.
It may be regrettable and unfair that as of today, women are subject to different risks than men and that SPD's advice might seem to imply that women are responsible for keeping themselves safe; but all crime is unfair. Should the SPD respond to car prowling by saying that everyone should be able to leave their cars unlocked and that hey, car prowlers, what you're doing is wrong so knock it off? We would laugh the SPD out of the city for that (although it might be a welcome change from their regular pastime of beating minority suspects).
If we want a change in societal norms, we have to direct our energy and anger somewhere it can actually make a difference at that level. Legislation would be a good place to start - getting our society to make clear in its legal codex that women are truly equal might end our complicity in making them live in fear.
But seriously - asking SPD to address rape culture? You're discrediting your own argument by even suggesting it.
It may be regrettable and unfair that as of today, women are subject to different risks than men and that SPD's advice might seem to imply that women are responsible for keeping themselves safe; but all crime is unfair. Should the SPD respond to car prowling by saying that everyone should be able to leave their cars unlocked and that hey, car prowlers, what you're doing is wrong so knock it off? We would laugh the SPD out of the city for that (although it might be a welcome change from their regular pastime of beating minority suspects).
If we want a change in societal norms, we have to direct our energy and anger somewhere it can actually make a difference at that level. Legislation would be a good place to start - getting our society to make clear in its legal codex that women are truly equal might end our complicity in making them live in fear.
But seriously - asking SPD to address rape culture? You're discrediting your own argument by even suggesting it.
189
@ Rob; I'm glad you're back. I wanted to address your comment regarding my position on violence against men, violence against men by men, general violence etc.
These are all important topics and conversations that need to be had. The fact that we were not talking about violence against men, doesn't detract from that conversation.
But that isn't what we're talking about right now, that's all.
To address both your question and Misanthrope's, no I don't think women are helpless. And I don't think that women should throw their hands in the air and give up living their lives. But the fact remains that that the third victim for example, was doing what you could do with out a second thought:
Running along a popular jogging track (not through a dark alley!) in a nice neighborhood (not in Detroit!) before work (not in the middle of the night!). And she was following quite a few of the suggestions on that list.
Comfortable shoes that allowed her to run? Check
Nonrestrictive clothing? Check
Had a cellphone but wasn't texting? Check
Neutral expression? Check
Knew her location? Check
Gave a good description of her attacker? Check
And yet.
The point isn't that she shouldn't have done all those things. The point is that those things are not enough. Telling women to do these things is not enough.
It. Is. Not. Working. And the answer is not the variation on "It's Chinatown" that ya'll keep offering up. Neither is accusing women of whining when we point that out.
The answer lies in changing the culture. Will that happen by Saturday? No, but if you really want to help end rape and violence against women, you have to let go of the status quo and join other men in working toward that end. Men like this:
http://keranews.org/post/dallas-mayor-wa…
Because telling us over and over and over to do what we are already doing isn't enough.
So. Are ya up for it?
More...
These are all important topics and conversations that need to be had. The fact that we were not talking about violence against men, doesn't detract from that conversation.
But that isn't what we're talking about right now, that's all.
To address both your question and Misanthrope's, no I don't think women are helpless. And I don't think that women should throw their hands in the air and give up living their lives. But the fact remains that that the third victim for example, was doing what you could do with out a second thought:
Running along a popular jogging track (not through a dark alley!) in a nice neighborhood (not in Detroit!) before work (not in the middle of the night!). And she was following quite a few of the suggestions on that list.
Comfortable shoes that allowed her to run? Check
Nonrestrictive clothing? Check
Had a cellphone but wasn't texting? Check
Neutral expression? Check
Knew her location? Check
Gave a good description of her attacker? Check
And yet.
The point isn't that she shouldn't have done all those things. The point is that those things are not enough. Telling women to do these things is not enough.
It. Is. Not. Working. And the answer is not the variation on "It's Chinatown" that ya'll keep offering up. Neither is accusing women of whining when we point that out.
The answer lies in changing the culture. Will that happen by Saturday? No, but if you really want to help end rape and violence against women, you have to let go of the status quo and join other men in working toward that end. Men like this:
http://keranews.org/post/dallas-mayor-wa…
Because telling us over and over and over to do what we are already doing isn't enough.
So. Are ya up for it?
190
@189 DEFLECTION AGAIN. Jesus.
What would you say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
What would you say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
191
189, again I'll ask, and again you'll ignore: While we are waiting for that much needed culture change, what would be your advice to women living in this pre-cultural change world where rapists still exist?
192
Rape is so prevalent because men feel entitled, and they feel like they can easily get away with it because they're picking on people smaller than them. And they're angry at women.
That sucks, and has to change. And no, we don't talk about it nearly enough, not relative to the amount of time we spend conditioning women to fear rape around every unknown corner. The fact that even having this conversation seems laughable to a lot of people is a huge part of the problem.
But in the meantime, when a bunch of attacks against women crop up in one neighborhood, we need to be aware of it and protect ourselves. I would give my own daughter this same advice for staying safe in a potentially dangerous area.
That sucks, and has to change. And no, we don't talk about it nearly enough, not relative to the amount of time we spend conditioning women to fear rape around every unknown corner. The fact that even having this conversation seems laughable to a lot of people is a huge part of the problem.
But in the meantime, when a bunch of attacks against women crop up in one neighborhood, we need to be aware of it and protect ourselves. I would give my own daughter this same advice for staying safe in a potentially dangerous area.
193
@190: Did you read my whole post?
Where I pointed out a number of things on the list that the third victim had done? And where I said:
The point isn't that she shouldn't have done all those things. The point is that those things are not enough. Telling women to do these things is not enough.
The next victim should do all the same things. But it won't be enough. Telling her to do them won't be enough.
Telling other women over and over to do these things Is. Not. Enough.
Because telling us over and over and over to do these things Is. Not. Working.
I have told you what I think will work. I have told you that what I think will work will not happen over night. I have supplied links to examples of men trying to do what I think needs to be done, i. e. change our culture. I have told you that what I think will work does not mean that women should throw their hands in the air and give up living their lives. I even said in my first post responding to Rob: it's not the advice per se.
I have answered your question. That you don't like that answer doesn't mean I'm deflecting. It means you don't like the answer.
We've established that you approve of the list, so in addition to the list, since that alone is demonstrably inadequate in reducing rape, what do you think should be done?
Where I pointed out a number of things on the list that the third victim had done? And where I said:
The point isn't that she shouldn't have done all those things. The point is that those things are not enough. Telling women to do these things is not enough.
The next victim should do all the same things. But it won't be enough. Telling her to do them won't be enough.
Telling other women over and over to do these things Is. Not. Enough.
Because telling us over and over and over to do these things Is. Not. Working.
I have told you what I think will work. I have told you that what I think will work will not happen over night. I have supplied links to examples of men trying to do what I think needs to be done, i. e. change our culture. I have told you that what I think will work does not mean that women should throw their hands in the air and give up living their lives. I even said in my first post responding to Rob: it's not the advice per se.
I have answered your question. That you don't like that answer doesn't mean I'm deflecting. It means you don't like the answer.
We've established that you approve of the list, so in addition to the list, since that alone is demonstrably inadequate in reducing rape, what do you think should be done?
194
@193 Defensive. And, no, you haven't answered the question.
I'm putting you on the spot. I'm asking for a fully formed idea. I'm asking for a specific answer. Not some nebulous, this-is-the-type-of-thing-the-world-should-be-doing-but-I-don't-have-the-specifics type answer. I'm asking for your speech. Hard language.
What would you, Lissa, say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
I'm putting you on the spot. I'm asking for a fully formed idea. I'm asking for a specific answer. Not some nebulous, this-is-the-type-of-thing-the-world-should-be-doing-but-I-don't-have-the-specifics type answer. I'm asking for your speech. Hard language.
What would you, Lissa, say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
195
People keep saying that nothing is working to end rape. That's demonstrably false. Even RAINN says that sexual assault has gone down 60% in recent years. Something is working.
But that not what this thread is about, really. Anna asserted that the SPD's advice amounts to rape culture. The SPD's advice is simply crime prevention tips that they give to anyone, male or female. Anna's outrage was an uniformed, knee-jerk reaction.
But that not what this thread is about, really. Anna asserted that the SPD's advice amounts to rape culture. The SPD's advice is simply crime prevention tips that they give to anyone, male or female. Anna's outrage was an uniformed, knee-jerk reaction.
196
Oh my god Rob! They should follow the advice.
BUT THE ADVICE. IS NOT. ENOUGH..
The advice alone IS NOT. WORKING.
I'm sorry to get internet shouty, but that is the point. We follow the advice and it isn't enough. And when we point that fact out we get told we are whining, or that we just want to pretend we live in a fairy land, or, there's nothing else that can be done, so just shut up and follow the advice, and too bad if your life gets tinier and tinier! That's life.
No. There are other things that can be done. I've given you links pointing to men who are trying to do the things that need to be done. It will not happen over night, but if you don't try, if we don't try, it won't happen at all.
Stop asking me what can be done. I've told you. Start asking yourself.
BUT THE ADVICE. IS NOT. ENOUGH..
The advice alone IS NOT. WORKING.
I'm sorry to get internet shouty, but that is the point. We follow the advice and it isn't enough. And when we point that fact out we get told we are whining, or that we just want to pretend we live in a fairy land, or, there's nothing else that can be done, so just shut up and follow the advice, and too bad if your life gets tinier and tinier! That's life.
No. There are other things that can be done. I've given you links pointing to men who are trying to do the things that need to be done. It will not happen over night, but if you don't try, if we don't try, it won't happen at all.
Stop asking me what can be done. I've told you. Start asking yourself.
197
193, I agree with you. It's not enough, and everyone should work to change the culture that leads to rape. No one here is pro-rape.
The police are trying to stop rapes in the culture we have today. They are a law enforcement organization, and are not equipped bring on major social changes.
You say the tips police spokeswoman released should be followed, but then get angry that they reiterated them. Let's face it, not everyone, woman or man, is as vigilant as she or he could be. As careful as I am, I've realized from time to time that didn't look down an alley before passing it. One time I forgot to lock my door, and was so grateful that no one got in. Reminders don't hurt anyone, and are appropriate when there is a known serial rapist on the loose.
There are rapists in the streets right now preying on women. Are the police guidelines foolproof? No. Are the guidelines the end solution? No, but they are proven to reduce risk in a dangerous world that isn't going to become a Utopia anytime soon? Yes.
The police are trying to stop rapes in the culture we have today. They are a law enforcement organization, and are not equipped bring on major social changes.
You say the tips police spokeswoman released should be followed, but then get angry that they reiterated them. Let's face it, not everyone, woman or man, is as vigilant as she or he could be. As careful as I am, I've realized from time to time that didn't look down an alley before passing it. One time I forgot to lock my door, and was so grateful that no one got in. Reminders don't hurt anyone, and are appropriate when there is a known serial rapist on the loose.
There are rapists in the streets right now preying on women. Are the police guidelines foolproof? No. Are the guidelines the end solution? No, but they are proven to reduce risk in a dangerous world that isn't going to become a Utopia anytime soon? Yes.
198
@194: No I answered the question, and I'll answer it again. It is not the advice per se that is the problem. I am not suggesting that women don't follow the advice given by the SPD. I said, and I quote, that "The next victim should do all the same things." I just said the same thing to rob. Women should follow the advice. I don't think I can be any clearer for you.
But that is not the point.
The point is that following the advice isn't enough. It isn't working. More needs to be done. And again, I've told you what I think needs to be done, and provided links with examples of what I think needs to be done.
What do you think we can do to reduce the threat of rape?
But that is not the point.
The point is that following the advice isn't enough. It isn't working. More needs to be done. And again, I've told you what I think needs to be done, and provided links with examples of what I think needs to be done.
What do you think we can do to reduce the threat of rape?
199
Lissa, you're ignoring the statistics on rape. It's seen a sharp decline.
Do you acknowledge that or not?
Do you acknowledge that or not?
200
@197: Woosh! Post flying by each other in the night! :)
We wouldn't get so angry if more were being done besides the advice. Telling us not to get angry, and that yes, nobody is pro rape, and then just letting it all sort of die away without actually doing anything else? Not helpful.
We'll keep getting angry, and we'll keep trying to change the culture, and by we, I hope I can mean you too.
We wouldn't get so angry if more were being done besides the advice. Telling us not to get angry, and that yes, nobody is pro rape, and then just letting it all sort of die away without actually doing anything else? Not helpful.
We'll keep getting angry, and we'll keep trying to change the culture, and by we, I hope I can mean you too.
202
200, You should get angry about rape. No one has said otherwise, but getting angry at the police department for reiterating safety tips (that you agree should be followed) because of a known serial rapist being on the loose seem unproductive. That's not going to reduce rapes.
203
@199: Yes, and? That decline is wonderful, and due to people doing more than telling women not to text at the bus stop. The work that RAIIN does, and the work done by the people in the links I provided up thread, is what I'm talking about when I say we need to do more. I hope Misanthrope and other men reading this will take the opportunity to visit RAIIN's website to learn more about what they can do to work against rape. Because as the first line on the page to which you linked said:
Every 2 minutes, someone in the U.S. is sexually assaulted.
And that's still too many.
Every 2 minutes, someone in the U.S. is sexually assaulted.
And that's still too many.
204
@194 OH. MY. GOD. LISSA
I asked you what you would say as a police officer. And you say, "it's not the advice, per se that's the problem."
But, from the original post:
Anna's post was about how the advice WAS the problem. The whole fucking post was about how the advice was the problem.
And then give nebulous, well I have said stuff about this and that and provided links...
So, in turn, I AGAIN ask for a speechification.
What would you, Lissa, say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
I asked you what you would say as a police officer. And you say, "it's not the advice, per se that's the problem."
But, from the original post:
[Rape prevention] is the conversation I would like to see happening at the Seattle Police Department, and not just among women on women's blogs. Not a convoluted and ever-growing list of how to prevent your own rape by wearing the right non-rapey hairstyle or crossing the street in the most anti-rape fashion or sleeping in past the raping hour.
That is not helping women.
Anna's post was about how the advice WAS the problem. The whole fucking post was about how the advice was the problem.
And then give nebulous, well I have said stuff about this and that and provided links...
So, in turn, I AGAIN ask for a speechification.
What would you, Lissa, say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
205
Really?! Didn't bother to read any of the comments here but...
6' 200# male here. Grew up in NYC and the advice given is the advice I follow everyday in every city in the world. If you have a problem with it... Shit, I just don't know.
6' 200# male here. Grew up in NYC and the advice given is the advice I follow everyday in every city in the world. If you have a problem with it... Shit, I just don't know.
206
I Answered. Your Question. in Post 1.9.8.
Here, I'll tell you again: Follow The Advice. That's my answer. But in addition to following the SPD advice, More. Needs. To. Be. Done. And by more I mean the sort of things I linked to that will help to change our culture.
Read them.
Anna thinks the advice is a problem. I understand her frustration.
If you want to know what Anna's answer to your question is, what she would say to try to protect the next victim, since I have already told you my answer three times: Ask ANNA
Here, I'll tell you again: Follow The Advice. That's my answer. But in addition to following the SPD advice, More. Needs. To. Be. Done. And by more I mean the sort of things I linked to that will help to change our culture.
Read them.
Anna thinks the advice is a problem. I understand her frustration.
If you want to know what Anna's answer to your question is, what she would say to try to protect the next victim, since I have already told you my answer three times: Ask ANNA
207
@205: Please scroll up thread and read my other comments in which I address that. Upon doing so you will realize that posting without context has made you look foolish.
Then click on the links in posts 169 and 189 which I provided and the link to RAIIN in post 199 which will lead you to ideas from other men that I feel need to be implemented not instead of but in addition to the advice given by the SPD.
Thank you
Then click on the links in posts 169 and 189 which I provided and the link to RAIIN in post 199 which will lead you to ideas from other men that I feel need to be implemented not instead of but in addition to the advice given by the SPD.
Thank you
208
@205 -- You honestly avoid texting, looking at your phone, or listening to music through earbuds whenever you're out in public?
209
204, Lissa has answered that question again and again. I don't know how she can make it clearer.
Are you going to answer her question, about your ideas for changing the culture of rape?
Are you going to answer her question, about your ideas for changing the culture of rape?
210
@206 Then, you misunderstood the majority of the posts on this fucking thread. Or, you're trolling.
Nobody is saying that a conversation about "rape culture" shouldn't be had. Not one single person here has said that.
What many MANY MANY commenters, including Anna's original post, have said is that the advice is useless and doesn't need to be given anymore. And, what the other tide, including me, has been saying is, "WTF? Do you think this advice isn't helpful in this situation?"
But, to be fair, if I heard there was a rash of gay bashings and I heard the police officer say, "Follow the advice. You know which advice. I shouldn't have to remind you. And, here is some information about gay bashing, the culture surrounding it, and how to stop it" I'd be fucking pissed. I don't give a shit why the gay bashing is happening. I want to know what the motherfuckers look like. What I can do to protect myself. Who to call if shit does go down. And what they are doing to catch those motherfuckers.
Because, if I'm walking alone at night, there's no fucking way I'm probably going to get some help, and I have only my own self to depend on. And that's all I want from the cops. I don't need them to hold my fucking hand, or to tell other people they shouldn't be gay bashing. That's not the cops' roles. That's the job of almost every other motherfucker on the planet. The politicians. The news people. The culturalists. EVERYBODY ELSE. But, the police? They're there to help me protect myself, and catch the bad guy, and ask for help in catching the bad guy.
So, now that I've told you what I would want to hear from a cop. What the fuck do you want to hear from a reporting officer? Because, that is the topic at fucking hand.
More...
Nobody is saying that a conversation about "rape culture" shouldn't be had. Not one single person here has said that.
What many MANY MANY commenters, including Anna's original post, have said is that the advice is useless and doesn't need to be given anymore. And, what the other tide, including me, has been saying is, "WTF? Do you think this advice isn't helpful in this situation?"
But, to be fair, if I heard there was a rash of gay bashings and I heard the police officer say, "Follow the advice. You know which advice. I shouldn't have to remind you. And, here is some information about gay bashing, the culture surrounding it, and how to stop it" I'd be fucking pissed. I don't give a shit why the gay bashing is happening. I want to know what the motherfuckers look like. What I can do to protect myself. Who to call if shit does go down. And what they are doing to catch those motherfuckers.
Because, if I'm walking alone at night, there's no fucking way I'm probably going to get some help, and I have only my own self to depend on. And that's all I want from the cops. I don't need them to hold my fucking hand, or to tell other people they shouldn't be gay bashing. That's not the cops' roles. That's the job of almost every other motherfucker on the planet. The politicians. The news people. The culturalists. EVERYBODY ELSE. But, the police? They're there to help me protect myself, and catch the bad guy, and ask for help in catching the bad guy.
So, now that I've told you what I would want to hear from a cop. What the fuck do you want to hear from a reporting officer? Because, that is the topic at fucking hand.
211
So, besides investigating crime (obviously) you don't think that the SPD should be doing anything more than give the same old tired advice over and over. You think that is the job of EVERY BODY ELSE.............. Does that happen to include you by the way?
Will you be answering my question then? Or read the links, I provided? Or try to do anything to work against rape?
Or not?
I've answered your questions. Answer mine.
Will you be answering my question then? Or read the links, I provided? Or try to do anything to work against rape?
Or not?
I've answered your questions. Answer mine.
212
@211 Actually, you still haven't. What do you want the cop to say? You keep giving generalities. I want some specifics. What, specifically, do you want her to say? What words do you want her to use?
213
We had a cop give a rape prevention session in my dorm - Texas, 1986. He covered most of the same territory, then added his own advice: if attacked, claw, bite, scream 'fire,' and take your heels off. He noted a stiletto goes through the ears/eyes quite nicely.
214
Good Christ, 212, you're awfully demanding. How about you listen to the people who actually deal with the threat of rape?
If Lissa did give you the complete and full answer you're insisting upon, you'd then complain that it wasn't good enough, didn't include something important, was too broad or too specific. You'd find some damn nit to pick, because you have this need to control the discussion around rape.
I find this interesting.
If Lissa did give you the complete and full answer you're insisting upon, you'd then complain that it wasn't good enough, didn't include something important, was too broad or too specific. You'd find some damn nit to pick, because you have this need to control the discussion around rape.
I find this interesting.
215
@214 *pats head condescendingly*
Just because I want an answer to a question asked many times and not answered once. Christ, you're a fucking moron.
Just because I want an answer to a question asked many times and not answered once. Christ, you're a fucking moron.
216
@212:Yes I have, and it is not going to change. You don't like it, but you'll have to learn to live with that.
Now then, answer mine.
Since the status quo is demonstrably inadequate, do you have any ideas of your own on how to work against rape, and if so what are they?
We know you approve of the list, and we know that you don't feel that the SPD needs to do more than they already are, but rather that it is the job of EVERYBODY ELSE to. A group of which, since you have not said otherwise, you are presumably a member.
So. We await your contribution.
Now then, answer mine.
Since the status quo is demonstrably inadequate, do you have any ideas of your own on how to work against rape, and if so what are they?
We know you approve of the list, and we know that you don't feel that the SPD needs to do more than they already are, but rather that it is the job of EVERYBODY ELSE to. A group of which, since you have not said otherwise, you are presumably a member.
So. We await your contribution.
217
@216 No. You haven't. You've said what you want men to do, you've posted links to things as varied as "men shouldn't rape" to "misogyny in gaming." You've nebulously addressed rape culture before I started asking the question. You've said what you think might work in vague unspecific terms beyond posting a the afore mentioned links like a lazy idiot. But you've not answered the question.
If you were a police officer, what would you say? Would you say, "here's some advice. But it isn't enough. You'll be getting raped even if you follow these rules because some unsocialized nerd calls you a bitch while playing Halo." Really? Would you say that?
Would you launch into a 45 minute diatribe on sexism and misogyny? Instead of delivering a brief bulletin alert about a rapist, would you rant on about how unfair it is to follow rules?
What the fuck would you say as a cop?
If you were a police officer, what would you say? Would you say, "here's some advice. But it isn't enough. You'll be getting raped even if you follow these rules because some unsocialized nerd calls you a bitch while playing Halo." Really? Would you say that?
Would you launch into a 45 minute diatribe on sexism and misogyny? Instead of delivering a brief bulletin alert about a rapist, would you rant on about how unfair it is to follow rules?
What the fuck would you say as a cop?
218
And I quote:
"I answered your question in Post 198.
Here, I'll tell you again: Follow The Advice. That's my answer. But in addition to following the SPD advice, More. Needs. To. Be. Done. And by more I mean the sort of things I linked to that will help to change our culture.
Read them."
You don't like this answer I know. But kick and fuss all you like it's not going to change.
Now. Do you have anything to contribute? One assumes since you are so very vocal in your criticisms here that you have given this topic a great deal of thought, and must have something of value to present.
"I answered your question in Post 198.
Here, I'll tell you again: Follow The Advice. That's my answer. But in addition to following the SPD advice, More. Needs. To. Be. Done. And by more I mean the sort of things I linked to that will help to change our culture.
Read them."
You don't like this answer I know. But kick and fuss all you like it's not going to change.
Now. Do you have anything to contribute? One assumes since you are so very vocal in your criticisms here that you have given this topic a great deal of thought, and must have something of value to present.
219
Christ almighty, I give up. Go get assaulted, ladies who don't grok the fucking point here. The point is PERSONAL SAFETY not a POLITICAL or ETHICAL STATEMENT. The point is personal safety and what you can do at the time you are "chosen" as an attackee. This is shit you can do and to keep in mind in order to protect yourself. That is it. Fantastic that it doesn't work through all the social grievances because that means there is much work to be done. You still, if you wanna live, keep yourself somewhat safe, yet not live in fear perpetually. Life needs to be lived.
221
Wow, lots of talking in cycles in these comments.
Anna, I think you've reading too much into the SPD advice. Just googling Seattle Police Department safety tips came up with a bunch of articles where the SPD repeat the same advice for different scenarios.
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2…
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2…
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.c…
http://seattletimes.com/html/theblotter/…
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.c… (This one doesn't explicit state the tips but does mention that 1200 leaflets featuring safety tips were giving out in downtown Seattle following muggings).
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2… (same as above, leaflets sent home parents featuring safety tips after a robber).
http://www.phinneywood.com/tag/seattle-p…
Also looking at the SPD site, it seems they give this advice for a bunch of different crime prevention
http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention…
http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention…
http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention…
There are great points to be made about rape culture and what can be done to prevent it. And yes there is a huge culture aspect to it, and more needs to be done then just telling women to better protect themselves. As Men it's something we owe to our wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, friends to discuss and to do as much as we can to fight rape culture. But accusing the police depart of furthering rape culture with their safety tips is unfair as these are their boilerplate tips for personal safety. If they gave these tips only for rape, it would be upsetting and unfair and furthering rape culture. But they give these tips out to the public anytime there's a pattern of crimes against persons.
I can understand how you feel frustrated at these tips and feel the need for a much larger discussion. But lets have that conversation then, as this discussion seems to be more "The SPD tips are good tips for Personal safety" vs "There is much more to be done to prevent Rape Culture". Both of those things are true and neither side is taking the time to listen to the other side.
Anyways...I hope the SPD catch this guy soon and my heart goes out to the victims
More...
Anna, I think you've reading too much into the SPD advice. Just googling Seattle Police Department safety tips came up with a bunch of articles where the SPD repeat the same advice for different scenarios.
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2…
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2…
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.c…
http://seattletimes.com/html/theblotter/…
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.c… (This one doesn't explicit state the tips but does mention that 1200 leaflets featuring safety tips were giving out in downtown Seattle following muggings).
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2… (same as above, leaflets sent home parents featuring safety tips after a robber).
http://www.phinneywood.com/tag/seattle-p…
Also looking at the SPD site, it seems they give this advice for a bunch of different crime prevention
http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention…
http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention…
http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention…
There are great points to be made about rape culture and what can be done to prevent it. And yes there is a huge culture aspect to it, and more needs to be done then just telling women to better protect themselves. As Men it's something we owe to our wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, friends to discuss and to do as much as we can to fight rape culture. But accusing the police depart of furthering rape culture with their safety tips is unfair as these are their boilerplate tips for personal safety. If they gave these tips only for rape, it would be upsetting and unfair and furthering rape culture. But they give these tips out to the public anytime there's a pattern of crimes against persons.
I can understand how you feel frustrated at these tips and feel the need for a much larger discussion. But lets have that conversation then, as this discussion seems to be more "The SPD tips are good tips for Personal safety" vs "There is much more to be done to prevent Rape Culture". Both of those things are true and neither side is taking the time to listen to the other side.
Anyways...I hope the SPD catch this guy soon and my heart goes out to the victims
223
Also, if we do care about stopping rape how about not celebrating people who steal security cameras from private property (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…). Many apartment complexes uses security cameras as a way to deter criminals from preying on their residents. Also many parking lots use them in similar manner.
224
@207 Not reading through 205 comments and addressing each one makes me look foolish? Responding to you now makes me look foolish.
I did take the trouble to scroll through yours and others comments and I don't see how what I said is affected. The truth is that good advice remains good advice. That I did not go beyond this truism and cure cancer is a failing, I admit. I wrote addressing the actual SLOG post, not the vomitus that followed.
Also, repeating the good advice is a good thing. Not only are new people joining the planet who have not heard the good advice but scientific studies show (science!) that people forget things pretty quickly, especially when under duress - this is one reason why flight attendants repeat the same story about exits and oxygen masks and seatbelts on every goddamned flight.
I did take the trouble to scroll through yours and others comments and I don't see how what I said is affected. The truth is that good advice remains good advice. That I did not go beyond this truism and cure cancer is a failing, I admit. I wrote addressing the actual SLOG post, not the vomitus that followed.
Also, repeating the good advice is a good thing. Not only are new people joining the planet who have not heard the good advice but scientific studies show (science!) that people forget things pretty quickly, especially when under duress - this is one reason why flight attendants repeat the same story about exits and oxygen masks and seatbelts on every goddamned flight.
225
I have been raped. None of the SPD's recommendations would have helped (because, you know, date raped by a friend of my brother's, because, like 70ish% of rapes, it was by someone I knew), but it is all good, general purpose common sense. Don't text and walk (you could get assaulted, or, more realistically, walk in front of a vehicle because you weren't paying attention). Don't completely block out sounds around you with earbuds (you could, again, get assaulted or fail to hear oncoming danger, like traffic). If you wouldn't do something while driving, don't do it while walking.
But the one thing that pisses me off is not the advice about clothes--it's the inevitable "we can wear whatever we want wherever we want" response to wear sensible shoes. Clothes do make the person and advertise for us, and far too many times I see idiot twentysomething women go out dressed looking like the local whores and then get offended when someone asks their price. Don't flaunt it if you've got it and wonder why someone looks (without touching, as happens most of the time).
I get it, I really do--people should be able to wear what they want wherever whenever, but that doesn't mean they get to be surprised by the attention their clothes attract. Or that stiletto heels are easy to walk in, much less run in.
But the one thing that pisses me off is not the advice about clothes--it's the inevitable "we can wear whatever we want wherever we want" response to wear sensible shoes. Clothes do make the person and advertise for us, and far too many times I see idiot twentysomething women go out dressed looking like the local whores and then get offended when someone asks their price. Don't flaunt it if you've got it and wonder why someone looks (without touching, as happens most of the time).
I get it, I really do--people should be able to wear what they want wherever whenever, but that doesn't mean they get to be surprised by the attention their clothes attract. Or that stiletto heels are easy to walk in, much less run in.
226
221: Thank you for the links, and thank you for getting it. You and I are pretty much on the same page. Hell, there isn't a woman on here, Anna included, (despite the deliberately obtuse braying of a certain segment of the Commentariat to the contrary) who doesn't understand the importance of personal safety. That wasn't what pissed Anna off, and it isn't what got me embroiled in this very loooooooooooong thread.
Last night I fell asleep angry, and depressed at what seemed to me a sisyphean task. Men like ortolan and Blue, and of course, the Misanthrope, and others (so many others) who for whatever reason, are unwilling to address the root problem. That telling women to make their lives tiny isn't enough. Maybe it's just that it's not their ox being gored. I don't know. There's only so much energy to go around and maybe they're saving theirs for something else.
Reading your comment, has made me feel a little better. Thank you.
Last night I fell asleep angry, and depressed at what seemed to me a sisyphean task. Men like ortolan and Blue, and of course, the Misanthrope, and others (so many others) who for whatever reason, are unwilling to address the root problem. That telling women to make their lives tiny isn't enough. Maybe it's just that it's not their ox being gored. I don't know. There's only so much energy to go around and maybe they're saving theirs for something else.
Reading your comment, has made me feel a little better. Thank you.
227
@218 wow. You'd make SUCH a proactive cop. Go read these links? Really?? You wouldn't say anything more proactive than that.
Jeez. I had you pegged wrong. I thought you had actual substance to your thought processes. An original thought, or at least a condensation of substance. Not just the usurpation of other people's thoughts. No wonder you linked to misogyny in gaming. No, seriously.
You know what? I'm going to answer your question with something just as useful and thoughtful as your answer. I'm going to have sex with men. Yes. I'm not going to rape women by having sex with men. No women will be assaulted in this endeavor.
Jesus. I really thought you'd have something to say. I guess I was wrong about that. I am disappoint.
Jeez. I had you pegged wrong. I thought you had actual substance to your thought processes. An original thought, or at least a condensation of substance. Not just the usurpation of other people's thoughts. No wonder you linked to misogyny in gaming. No, seriously.
You know what? I'm going to answer your question with something just as useful and thoughtful as your answer. I'm going to have sex with men. Yes. I'm not going to rape women by having sex with men. No women will be assaulted in this endeavor.
Jesus. I really thought you'd have something to say. I guess I was wrong about that. I am disappoint.
228
@227: "Follow the advice" would be to the hypothetical victim. " Read the links" was, as you very well know, directed at you Misanthrope.
I specifically picked links from men's websites for a number of reasons. Feminist websites would have given you the opportunity to dismiss the messages as not relevant or anti male. I pointed you to them instead of rephrasing their content to allow you to judge for yourself and also to cut you off from accusing me of womansplaining which as you had already indicated in post 170 you were clearly itching to do. It is also telling that the only link you have mentioned (twice now) is the one regarding misogyny in gaming. Not Men Can Stop Rape, not Stop Street Harassment, not The Good Men Project, not RAIIN. Why's that? Was it because you couldn't find any fault with them?
You castigate others, and yet have not yourself offered a single substantive suggestion, or even a link that would indicate you've given this topic more that a cursory thought. It is not my job to do your thinking and research for you. I pointed you to resources provided by other men that could give you a framework, as a man, to work against rape.
But that is neither here nor there. If you would like to be an ally, great, (though that seems unlikely) but if as a gay man you feel that all you have to contribute is not sleeping with women, then may I just remind you that men rape other men. So you are not off the hook. Either as a potential victim or perpetrator for that matter. Maybe you should take another look at those links with that in mind.
You may be surprised to discover that your disappointment is not something I take into consideration.
I specifically picked links from men's websites for a number of reasons. Feminist websites would have given you the opportunity to dismiss the messages as not relevant or anti male. I pointed you to them instead of rephrasing their content to allow you to judge for yourself and also to cut you off from accusing me of womansplaining which as you had already indicated in post 170 you were clearly itching to do. It is also telling that the only link you have mentioned (twice now) is the one regarding misogyny in gaming. Not Men Can Stop Rape, not Stop Street Harassment, not The Good Men Project, not RAIIN. Why's that? Was it because you couldn't find any fault with them?
You castigate others, and yet have not yourself offered a single substantive suggestion, or even a link that would indicate you've given this topic more that a cursory thought. It is not my job to do your thinking and research for you. I pointed you to resources provided by other men that could give you a framework, as a man, to work against rape.
But that is neither here nor there. If you would like to be an ally, great, (though that seems unlikely) but if as a gay man you feel that all you have to contribute is not sleeping with women, then may I just remind you that men rape other men. So you are not off the hook. Either as a potential victim or perpetrator for that matter. Maybe you should take another look at those links with that in mind.
You may be surprised to discover that your disappointment is not something I take into consideration.
229
@228 I love posts of no content and all anger from you.
"I haven't mentioned any actual content because" is still not mentioning any actual content.
I asked what you would say as a police officer. You said you'd point to links. I said that's ineffective. You said that's because I didn't actually say anything.
Well, no shit, Sherlock.
Wake me when you say something original and substantive, instead of just pointing to other people's shit.
"I haven't mentioned any actual content because" is still not mentioning any actual content.
I asked what you would say as a police officer. You said you'd point to links. I said that's ineffective. You said that's because I didn't actually say anything.
Well, no shit, Sherlock.
Wake me when you say something original and substantive, instead of just pointing to other people's shit.
230
If pretending you have a problem with reading comprehension is what you need to do save face you go right ahead my dear.
Hopefully you will take the time to go do your own research. Or not. Probably not. I don't think any one has any illusions about that at this point. Or about you.
Ah well.
Hopefully you will take the time to go do your own research. Or not. Probably not. I don't think any one has any illusions about that at this point. Or about you.
Ah well.
231
@230 Again. No original content.
I've had the conviction to put my own thoughts out there.
You haven't.
You hide behind other people's links, and pretend to have said what's on your mind. Pretending to have said something other than attacking people, or parroting what other voices above have had the courage to say without adding anything but links.
Here's a hint. Everybody else uses the links as SUPPLEMENTS to their thoughts. Not as their entire thought
But, explaining how you are being a moron will just go over your head. AGAIN. Ah well.
I've had the conviction to put my own thoughts out there.
You haven't.
You hide behind other people's links, and pretend to have said what's on your mind. Pretending to have said something other than attacking people, or parroting what other voices above have had the courage to say without adding anything but links.
Here's a hint. Everybody else uses the links as SUPPLEMENTS to their thoughts. Not as their entire thought
But, explaining how you are being a moron will just go over your head. AGAIN. Ah well.
233
But... But... But... Think about the Womyn's Studies professors. How will practical rape-avoidance advice help THEM???
234
Wow, we got all the way to the fourth comment before we got rape apologists going. that must be some kind of record.
Anna, thank you for writing this. Just, thank you. It is refreshing as fuck to hear published works talk about *rapists* as the fucking problem instead of *rape victims* not being unattractive enough as victims, since as you said, that whoooole line of reasoning only ever boils down to a sludge of steaming What The Fuck.
Also, a belated, FUCK YOU to every stupid man who immediately piled on to say, 'The police had rational advice! I do the same thing every day!' because HOLY FUCK, MEN - YOU ARE NOT THE AVERAGE RAPE TARGET. That is why this seems to make sense to you, assholes! It works for you because YOU'RE NOT TYPICAL RAPE TARGETS. Jesus fuck.
Anna, thank you for writing this. Just, thank you. It is refreshing as fuck to hear published works talk about *rapists* as the fucking problem instead of *rape victims* not being unattractive enough as victims, since as you said, that whoooole line of reasoning only ever boils down to a sludge of steaming What The Fuck.
Also, a belated, FUCK YOU to every stupid man who immediately piled on to say, 'The police had rational advice! I do the same thing every day!' because HOLY FUCK, MEN - YOU ARE NOT THE AVERAGE RAPE TARGET. That is why this seems to make sense to you, assholes! It works for you because YOU'RE NOT TYPICAL RAPE TARGETS. Jesus fuck.
235
@234 Holy shit you have reading comprehension problems. Jesus fuck. Rape apologists?
From comment 4:
THAT'S a comment by a rape apologist?
Jesus fuck, get some fucking perspective you goddamn fucking misandrist.
/curse words added to match tone of your comment, maybe to aid in reading comprehension
From comment 4:
Yes, the culture needs to change. I completely agree. But in the meantime, I think it's nice to provide advice to people who want it.
THAT'S a comment by a rape apologist?
Jesus fuck, get some fucking perspective you goddamn fucking misandrist.
/curse words added to match tone of your comment, maybe to aid in reading comprehension
236
Right now, the culture can be demonstrated in one simple sentence, so common in news reports: "she was raped."
That's passive voice. Notice who's missing: the rapist. The rape just happens. The responsible party is so often left out of the picture, particularly re: rape prevention.
You cannot control the actions of another person. Yet, our culture expects that of women re: sex and rape. Our culture holds women responsible for men's supposed insatiable, uncontrollable sexuality. Trust, women have PhDs in "How to avoid your own rape". Meanwhile, men, case in point: this thread, THINK they know better. You don't. Get over it.
The culture needs to shift the focus to the active: "he raped." Who is responsible for rape? Rapists. Der. BUT they depend on a culture that ignores them. A culture that says: she got raped, not: he raped her. She she she she. SHE. He's nowhere. Probably off getting another she raped.
Men need to be held accountable. Men need to hold other men accountable. It's probably awkward being a man when other men not you do things like rape women, or worse children, but, as some manplainer said up thread, that's just reality. I'm crying rivers for you.
Moving onto the point of this post and thread: we need to ACTIVELY and thoroughly teach boys and men how not to rape, the meaning of bodily autonomy and what that means in the oh so confusing contexts of dating, sex, relationships and general participation in society, with particular focus on consent. Masculinity is tied up in this. What attitudes toward women do men actively accept or just tolerate from others in front of other men?
That's passive voice. Notice who's missing: the rapist. The rape just happens. The responsible party is so often left out of the picture, particularly re: rape prevention.
You cannot control the actions of another person. Yet, our culture expects that of women re: sex and rape. Our culture holds women responsible for men's supposed insatiable, uncontrollable sexuality. Trust, women have PhDs in "How to avoid your own rape". Meanwhile, men, case in point: this thread, THINK they know better. You don't. Get over it.
The culture needs to shift the focus to the active: "he raped." Who is responsible for rape? Rapists. Der. BUT they depend on a culture that ignores them. A culture that says: she got raped, not: he raped her. She she she she. SHE. He's nowhere. Probably off getting another she raped.
Men need to be held accountable. Men need to hold other men accountable. It's probably awkward being a man when other men not you do things like rape women, or worse children, but, as some manplainer said up thread, that's just reality. I'm crying rivers for you.
Moving onto the point of this post and thread: we need to ACTIVELY and thoroughly teach boys and men how not to rape, the meaning of bodily autonomy and what that means in the oh so confusing contexts of dating, sex, relationships and general participation in society, with particular focus on consent. Masculinity is tied up in this. What attitudes toward women do men actively accept or just tolerate from others in front of other men?
237
@236 That passive voice is used in all crime reports.
"He was murdered."
"A man was mugged last night."
"There have been a series of break-ins in the Wedgewood District."
"A house caught on fire."
"Last night, another teenager was shot in South Seattle."
Just saying, that rape doesn't get special avoidance treatment in the news. You don't say "A rapist raped a woman." Or, "A predator raped a woman." Sometimes you get "A man raped a woman last night."
Frequently, the news puts the victim first in the sentence, which is usually somebody who had something done to them. Why? The victim is generally considered the subject of the news. It's not exclusive to rape victims.
As a side note, this is why many kids suck at writing. They frequently use the passive voice because of its prevalent use in the media.
"He was murdered."
"A man was mugged last night."
"There have been a series of break-ins in the Wedgewood District."
"A house caught on fire."
"Last night, another teenager was shot in South Seattle."
Just saying, that rape doesn't get special avoidance treatment in the news. You don't say "A rapist raped a woman." Or, "A predator raped a woman." Sometimes you get "A man raped a woman last night."
Frequently, the news puts the victim first in the sentence, which is usually somebody who had something done to them. Why? The victim is generally considered the subject of the news. It's not exclusive to rape victims.
As a side note, this is why many kids suck at writing. They frequently use the passive voice because of its prevalent use in the media.
238
Are the police distributing composite sketches of the suspect? Gyms, libraries, bars, drugstores, etc. need the picture.
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