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News & ArtsMonday, February 4, 2013
Guns The Greatest American Sniper Saw Guns in Schools As a Business Opportunity
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 7:10 AM
Posted by Guns.com a few weeks before he (Chris Kyle) was gunned down in a Texas sporting lodge...
74
@72, you're right. that was ignorant of me. i failed to state, grab his shit let's go. thank you 72.
73
@70, Thank you, my sentiments exactly. Does anyone here realize that just because some people own guns, that it doesn't make them a "gun nut" or a "gun loon"? Alot of YOU people probably couldn't pass a background check anyhow, thank god.
70
I find it sad that the very people who say they are peaceful people and that gun owners are evil and despicable are the ones that come out of the woodwork and condemn anyone that doesn't share your views. You don't see gun owners coming on places like this saying that they wished "insert name of some anti gun person here" was dead or that they are happy that someone was dead and the person won't be missed. Chris Kyle had a family and friends and other people that loved him and you are all disrespecting all of those people by saying that it is good that another human being is dead. Take your talks of peace and love and shove it up your collective asses. I'm sick and tired of the negativity and disrespect that you people show towards other human beings just because they don't share your point of view.
68
I'll bet not a single one of you would walk up to a living solider and say the world would be better off if they were dead? You know what that makes you? A bunch of hypocritical little bitches. Sack up or shut up, pansies.
67
Each and every one of you are absolute pieces of shit. For you to demand action over a child's death and celebrate this mans death makes you all hypocrites. You all make me SICK. I don't wish harm on any human being but you "people" are sub-human garbage at best and I wish horrible suffering on you all. You are the EXACT type of "person" who makes everyone else look bad. You're a plague on society. For you to say the world is better off without this man is disgusting. In reality the world is better off without people like YOU. Half of you are probably bible thumpers who only adhere to the parts of the bible that suit your lifestyle. You must have skipped over the part that says "Judge not lest ye be judged." You all sit on your moral high horse and condemn others for their actions and life choices. Look in the fucking mirror and please tell the rest of the world exactly what it's like to be perfect.
Fuck you all and your little soap boxes you trash.
R.I.P. Chris Kyle. You were an American hero while those who condemn and bad mouth you are a whole other level of scum. May you rest in peace soldier and may those who condemn you live a life of suffering.
Fuck you all and your little soap boxes you trash.
R.I.P. Chris Kyle. You were an American hero while those who condemn and bad mouth you are a whole other level of scum. May you rest in peace soldier and may those who condemn you live a life of suffering.
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I suspect, that in terms of you people contributing much to the gene pool that will be extent in, say, 100 years, we have little to fear. When and if the SHTF, you blind fools will be mainly focused on who gets the neighbors liver for dinner.
65
People, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? Treehuggers,Liberals,Conservatives? Our soldiers have a greater responsibility than all you could possibly fathom. You weep for our military, and you curse them them behind their backs. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what they know. That Mr. Kyle's war actions, while tragic, probably saved lives. And his existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to those of you who sit behind protest posters, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want him on that wall, you need him on that wall. He used words like honor, code, loyalty. He used these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You people use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man or woman who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that he provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn.
But the one thing I truly believe is, he deserves respect....Then and Now.
Fucking Tree huggers...
But the one thing I truly believe is, he deserves respect....Then and Now.
Fucking Tree huggers...
64
People, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? Treehuggers,Liberals,Conservatives? Our soldiers have a greater responsibility than all you could possibly fathom. You weep for our military, and you curse them them behind their backs. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what they know. That Mr. Kyle's war actions, while tragic, probably saved lives. And his existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to those of you who sit behind protest posters, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want him on that wall, you need him on that wall. He used words like honor, code, loyalty. He used these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You people use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man or woman who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that he provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn.
But the one thing a believe is he deserves is respect....Then and Now.
Fucking Tree huggers...
But the one thing a believe is he deserves is respect....Then and Now.
Fucking Tree huggers...
63
All of you dancing on this man's grave due to his service or political beliefs are animals!
If you seriously believe the politics suggested by this man's death are more important than his life, then YOU are what's wrong with this country.
Disgusting!
If you seriously believe the politics suggested by this man's death are more important than his life, then YOU are what's wrong with this country.
Disgusting!
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All of you dancing on this man's grave because of his service or politics are animals.
If you truly believe the politics suggested by this man's death are more important than his life, then YOU are what's wrong with this country.
Disgusting,
If you truly believe the politics suggested by this man's death are more important than his life, then YOU are what's wrong with this country.
Disgusting,
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@59
1. Nobody's jumping for glee.
2. People are judging the guy based on who he is, not because he was gay.
3. People are going to be happy when Fred Phelps dies. Are you going to be whiteknighting for him too? Defending his character, claiming he fought for his country, declaring that he deserves respect? Because there's not a lot of difference between Fred Phelps and Chris Kyle.
1. Nobody's jumping for glee.
2. People are judging the guy based on who he is, not because he was gay.
3. People are going to be happy when Fred Phelps dies. Are you going to be whiteknighting for him too? Defending his character, claiming he fought for his country, declaring that he deserves respect? Because there's not a lot of difference between Fred Phelps and Chris Kyle.
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@12, @38 My twin brother has been a grunt (enlisted infantryman) in the Marines for 13 years. He was sent to Iraq three times; the second time he was injured and received a purple heart; the third he was away from his wife and young daughter for many months. He made Sergeant before he was 21. I have respect for his willingness to do what he believes is right, but we disagree constantly about the political and moral virtues of what he does. I am the first to say he deserves respect; he still has shrapnel in his face from his sacrifice, fer chrissakes. That doesn't mean that I can't vehemently disagree with his politics. This whole notion of respect for service persons (and freedom, while we're at it) being zero sum is a political construct, designed by war hawks to shame pacifists into silence. I don't know much about Mr. Kyle's military record or whether it was bloodthirsty or honorable, but that video makes me think less of him, irrespective of what good he may have done overseas.
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@Whoever:
The only point is that leaping for glee because a man who put his life on the line for his country died a violent death which you can use as a political point makes you a really shitty person.
You do realize that this is exactly what the Westboro Baptist Church does right? So congrats. Will you be picketing his funeral as well?
The only point is that leaping for glee because a man who put his life on the line for his country died a violent death which you can use as a political point makes you a really shitty person.
You do realize that this is exactly what the Westboro Baptist Church does right? So congrats. Will you be picketing his funeral as well?
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@56, did you know what WWII vets did to the homosexuals they liberated from Nazi camps? They threw them in prisons.
You know what they did when they came back home? Enforced segragation for another twenty years.
That your idea of freedom fighters?
You know what they did when they came back home? Enforced segragation for another twenty years.
That your idea of freedom fighters?
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Dorsal, there are absolutely people who have died, in my lifetime, defending my freedom. None of them were soldiers. Fred Hampton, Malcolm X, Bobby Hutton and many other activists died in the late 60's and early 70's fighting for our freedom. Today many are incarcerated unjustly for fighting for our freedom; Leonard Peltier, Julian Assange, Bradley Manning... While I acknowledge that you entered service with the noblest of intentions, the intentions of those who sent you were, to be polite, ignoble. No military action in my lifetime has in any way, shape or form advanced my alleged "freedom". Not Vietnam, not panama, not Granada, none of it. These acts have had the opposite effect, creating a more militarized domestic security apparatus that has eviscerated the bill of rights. The military industrial complex decreases freedom. Service in it does not earn my respect.
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Stranger Slog dick-suckers: "American soldiers saved us homos from being gassed by the Nazis, but what have they done for us lately?"
Next time they come to Matthew Shepard your asses en masse, you can throw them a musical and see how that works for you.
Next time they come to Matthew Shepard your asses en masse, you can throw them a musical and see how that works for you.
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@54, did everybody who went to Iraq end up a fucked-up bigot? Or was there something deeply wrong with this guy's character?
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Did his military training he received after joining condition him to want to kill "muslim savages"? Maybe the economic incentive of having a family and needing work and being told for years all you know as killing lead to reenlistment?
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You guys do get not every soldier was in the room conspiring with GW Bush to make up lies to invade a country. You think you think you were lied to? Imagine actually having believed the lie so much you invaded.
As to freedom fighting, I'm pretty sure that while not American freedom Kuwait, Panama, Bosnia, and Kosvo like their freedom.
As to freedom fighting, I'm pretty sure that while not American freedom Kuwait, Panama, Bosnia, and Kosvo like their freedom.
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@51, Did the Constitution make him re-enlist over and over so he could follow through on his expressed desire to kill muslim "savages."
Is "just following orders" your idea of morality?
Is "just following orders" your idea of morality?
51
So the moral thing is to chose on your own to ignore the rule of law, the majority of The People, and your elected officials and go your own way....
So why are people who threatened to leave the Union after Obama was elected or to protest the 2nd Amendment wrong in yhour view. After all, someone has said they are on the "moral" side...or is it only your morality that over rules the Constitution?
So why are people who threatened to leave the Union after Obama was elected or to protest the 2nd Amendment wrong in yhour view. After all, someone has said they are on the "moral" side...or is it only your morality that over rules the Constitution?
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47, you really are incredibly naive. America hasn't had to "fight for its freedom" since WWII. Every other military action was about forcing other countries to do our bidding. Your arguments have been used to justify invasions for centuries. The Germans obeyed their Constitution, now didn't they? By your morals, they were entirely justified in all their actions.
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Right.....the US military has never fought any actions that defended the freedom of the country or the freedom of other countries...
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@47, you do know that "fighting for your freedom" is just propaganda to get stupid people to sign up to fight, right? Or to get other stupid people to support their friends and family when they sign up, right?
Chris Kyle never fought for anybody's freedom.
Chris Kyle never fought for anybody's freedom.
47
@46
You are aware that the US military does "fight for your freedom", whether you agree with this action or not, that's not a fact that changes.
When you join the military, you're signing up to serve your country, your country requires you to submit to the Constitution which requires you to answer to the authority of Congress and the President.
Your dislike of the action, does not change the Constitutional requirement of anyone who has signed up into the Armed Forces. You have to be able to demonstrate more than your disapproval to overrule the Constitution
You are aware that the US military does "fight for your freedom", whether you agree with this action or not, that's not a fact that changes.
When you join the military, you're signing up to serve your country, your country requires you to submit to the Constitution which requires you to answer to the authority of Congress and the President.
Your dislike of the action, does not change the Constitutional requirement of anyone who has signed up into the Armed Forces. You have to be able to demonstrate more than your disapproval to overrule the Constitution
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@44, I'm not asking how they supported him by letting him deploy (as if they had a choice).
I'm asking how him deploying supports this country.
Sounds like typical "he's fighting for muh freedums" bullshit.
I'm asking how him deploying supports this country.
Sounds like typical "he's fighting for muh freedums" bullshit.
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@38
So what you'd like is for those who don't like Chris Kyle's politics to go down to JBLM and get into a fight? You do realize that getting violent with people whose opinions you disagree with is basically the reason Chris Kyle is dead now?
"I'm a bad ass veteran so I've earned the right to dictate what you think and say. Cross me and I'll kill you!" So how'd that work out? A life cut short, with jack shit to show for it. Over nothing.
And the lesson you take away is that we need more fighting over differences of opinion?
You're also forgetting that our real heroes in uniform didn't swear an oath to the idea that veterans should have their asses kissed the rest of their lives. They swore to defend with their lives the idea that everyone -- everyone -- should be free to say what they think without fear. They served to bring down tyrants, not to become tyrants themselves.
So what you'd like is for those who don't like Chris Kyle's politics to go down to JBLM and get into a fight? You do realize that getting violent with people whose opinions you disagree with is basically the reason Chris Kyle is dead now?
"I'm a bad ass veteran so I've earned the right to dictate what you think and say. Cross me and I'll kill you!" So how'd that work out? A life cut short, with jack shit to show for it. Over nothing.
And the lesson you take away is that we need more fighting over differences of opinion?
You're also forgetting that our real heroes in uniform didn't swear an oath to the idea that veterans should have their asses kissed the rest of their lives. They swore to defend with their lives the idea that everyone -- everyone -- should be free to say what they think without fear. They served to bring down tyrants, not to become tyrants themselves.
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@42
Because, the United States government (correctly or incorrectly isn't a factor because besides voting there isn't anything they could do) that was elected by The People voted in a majority as instructed by the Constitution of the United States to deploy combat troops overseas.
Over centuries, the US military has learned that to have an effective fighting force the fighting force needs to have a stable support of a home. This means the well being of the families at home is directly tied in the ability of the US military (like it or not, you can't honestly say its never to be used) to conduct everything from peace keeping missions to disaster relief to the invasion of Iraq.
Of course, anyone who follows the news or even watched a cheap romantic comedy in the last decade understands that supporting an maintaining a family is difficult even without the added stress of year long deployments and the added stress of knowing every single day the chances of your significant other dying are close to 100%. When someone marries into the military they are joining the military, and all the crap that comes with it.
Whether you agree; and understand I took part in the Iraq invasion myself and no longer agree with the action too, the action was done. There are consequences of those actions and pointing a finger and saying those consequences shouldn't exist isn't fixing any problems.
Ultimately, this story is the complete example of the dangers of war and the work we still have ahead of us as a society. A man who was obviously dealing with his service, was shot by another man likely because of his service, who leaves a family behind who have to deal with the mess the service left without ever having "been in" the service.
More...
Because, the United States government (correctly or incorrectly isn't a factor because besides voting there isn't anything they could do) that was elected by The People voted in a majority as instructed by the Constitution of the United States to deploy combat troops overseas.
Over centuries, the US military has learned that to have an effective fighting force the fighting force needs to have a stable support of a home. This means the well being of the families at home is directly tied in the ability of the US military (like it or not, you can't honestly say its never to be used) to conduct everything from peace keeping missions to disaster relief to the invasion of Iraq.
Of course, anyone who follows the news or even watched a cheap romantic comedy in the last decade understands that supporting an maintaining a family is difficult even without the added stress of year long deployments and the added stress of knowing every single day the chances of your significant other dying are close to 100%. When someone marries into the military they are joining the military, and all the crap that comes with it.
Whether you agree; and understand I took part in the Iraq invasion myself and no longer agree with the action too, the action was done. There are consequences of those actions and pointing a finger and saying those consequences shouldn't exist isn't fixing any problems.
Ultimately, this story is the complete example of the dangers of war and the work we still have ahead of us as a society. A man who was obviously dealing with his service, was shot by another man likely because of his service, who leaves a family behind who have to deal with the mess the service left without ever having "been in" the service.
42
@40, are people judging him based on him joining the military? Or based upon the content of his character?
@41, "they supported the nation by letting him deploy."
How exactly did that support the nation?
@41, "they supported the nation by letting him deploy."
How exactly did that support the nation?
41
It looks like several of you have already made the decision that everyone who served in military is an uneducated animal, who deserves to be put down. If that's what you think, you're wrong, but entitled too it and since you prejudged there is no sense in debating it
At the very least if you can't honor the man's service, honor his family's. While you're dancing on his grave, a wife who remained loyal and supported her family so her husband would serve and still have a home to come back to has lost the family she holds dear. What about the kid's missing a father?
If Chris didn't deserve a happy ending, that's your opinion, but his wife and kids didn't deserve this one, and they deserve the support of a nation since they supported the nation by letting him deploy.
At the very least if you can't honor the man's service, honor his family's. While you're dancing on his grave, a wife who remained loyal and supported her family so her husband would serve and still have a home to come back to has lost the family she holds dear. What about the kid's missing a father?
If Chris didn't deserve a happy ending, that's your opinion, but his wife and kids didn't deserve this one, and they deserve the support of a nation since they supported the nation by letting him deploy.
40
You mean like the crazy fucked up bigots on this board that hate the anyone in the military? Anyone who owns a gun? Kyle killed the enemy with prejudice...so what.
39
@38, the guy was a piece of shit and a disgrace to the veterans who went and fought and didn't become crazy fucked-up bigots.
I don't think you should make assumptions about what other veterans thought of the guy. Well... I guess we know what one veteran in particular thought of the guy.
I don't think you should make assumptions about what other veterans thought of the guy. Well... I guess we know what one veteran in particular thought of the guy.
38
I'd love to see you guys go express your opinions to the faces of Infantymen. Why don't you hop a ride to Ft. Lewis and see how popular your are. What have you contributed to society? The shits you took on public property while your were living in the OWS slum doesn't count.
37
@34
Except that we basically failed in Iraq. If we had left behind a functioning nation you could argue that our tactics were justified, but looking back on it all, clearly we were doing something wrong. You can't accept at face value any of our actions there.
Except that we basically failed in Iraq. If we had left behind a functioning nation you could argue that our tactics were justified, but looking back on it all, clearly we were doing something wrong. You can't accept at face value any of our actions there.
36
You asshole slog commenters who want to ban all guns and ridicule a decorated vet and find glee in his death are THE reason democrats will lose seats in the senate and the house come 2014. You reveal yourselves to be the stereotype that republicans have of you. You are the problem.
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@31
In the middle ages you had reason to fear speaking ill of the dead. Today, not everybody believes in ghosts. So they're not afraid of saying what they think about the man's politics.
Because the guy was quite political. And he used his soapbox -- a soapbox he got from the US governemnt, in violation of the spirit of secrecy in the special forces -- to push some really repugnant political ideas. How come the SEALs are such showboats today, anyway? They're all about their book deals and movie treatments and hitting the lecture circuit. Does every SEAL have an agent and a PR team?
What were his politics? Racism. Religious intolerance. Summary murder of people based on their race, their religion, or standing on the wrong corner at the wrong time. Pushing the idea of treason against the US because of a really wrong-headed interpretation of the meaning of the Second Amendment. A lot of pretty nasty shit that begs a vigorous reply. Especially considering the obvious connection between his nasty politics and the way he died.
You see the double standard there? A guy dies and we give his political writings and speeches a free pass, and don't let anyone criticize? Why? Only one reason: Gun lovers are babies. They are thin skinned whiners who cry foul if you ever tell it like it is to their soft, pasty faces. In the end it makes sense. Why else do they love guns so much, if not weakness and cowardice? Gun lovers are afraid of the whole world, and they don't want to hear you say it to their faces.
Nobody was afraid of criticizing Ed Koch's politics after he died. Why is this dude so special?
In the middle ages you had reason to fear speaking ill of the dead. Today, not everybody believes in ghosts. So they're not afraid of saying what they think about the man's politics.
Because the guy was quite political. And he used his soapbox -- a soapbox he got from the US governemnt, in violation of the spirit of secrecy in the special forces -- to push some really repugnant political ideas. How come the SEALs are such showboats today, anyway? They're all about their book deals and movie treatments and hitting the lecture circuit. Does every SEAL have an agent and a PR team?
What were his politics? Racism. Religious intolerance. Summary murder of people based on their race, their religion, or standing on the wrong corner at the wrong time. Pushing the idea of treason against the US because of a really wrong-headed interpretation of the meaning of the Second Amendment. A lot of pretty nasty shit that begs a vigorous reply. Especially considering the obvious connection between his nasty politics and the way he died.
You see the double standard there? A guy dies and we give his political writings and speeches a free pass, and don't let anyone criticize? Why? Only one reason: Gun lovers are babies. They are thin skinned whiners who cry foul if you ever tell it like it is to their soft, pasty faces. In the end it makes sense. Why else do they love guns so much, if not weakness and cowardice? Gun lovers are afraid of the whole world, and they don't want to hear you say it to their faces.
Nobody was afraid of criticizing Ed Koch's politics after he died. Why is this dude so special?
34
@12: It's hard to see this guy's service as a huge personal sacrifice made for the greater good. He seems more like a thrill-seeking adrenaline junkie who took advantage of an opportunity to kill people and make a pile of money out it.
No judgment there, btw - people like that certainly serve a function in a war.
No judgment there, btw - people like that certainly serve a function in a war.
33
@30- if there is a Difference between "soldier" and "warrior", it exists solely in your mind, as there is no real distinction in either the dictionary or the thesaurus. Further, you avoid the question I posed by creating a premise that I did not establish; my question is, do you confer the same forgiveness to those who served under other regimes as you confer to those who this regime? Those who served the in the Wehrmacht did so for the "right reasons" by your logic. Likewise, those who served under Pol Pot, Pinochet, or any other now despised ruler.
Wearing a uniform does not automatically confer respect. Following orders is not a viable defense according to Nuremberg. If the job is unjust, the blame lies with both those who give the orders and those who follow them without question.
Wearing a uniform does not automatically confer respect. Following orders is not a viable defense according to Nuremberg. If the job is unjust, the blame lies with both those who give the orders and those who follow them without question.
32
@21. Uhhhh, according to KYLES words, he used the sniper training to legitimize his desires for power, control and decisive action. Yeah, he was a sociopath from jump who found a way to kill for fun and glory. Sane, normal human DO NOT kill more than one man per month average and think it appropriate. NO ONE can do this and retain the core values of humanity
Especially some one who feels theoral superiority required to play god and get to CHOOSE who lives and dies today
Good riddance to the savage with Crusader tats...BTW, the medieval crusaders probably killed more Jews and Christians out of ignorance and zeal than they killed of the infidel Mohammedan
Especially some one who feels theoral superiority required to play god and get to CHOOSE who lives and dies today
Good riddance to the savage with Crusader tats...BTW, the medieval crusaders probably killed more Jews and Christians out of ignorance and zeal than they killed of the infidel Mohammedan
31
@29:
"His death only helped make Earth a little nicer place to live."
"Quite the snake oil salesman, this sniping huckster."
"The world's better off without this guy."
These are not political points, and they do nothing to further an idea. They are simply gleeful outbursts because a person who may disagree with another's ideas was violently killed. This is what bothers me.
"His death only helped make Earth a little nicer place to live."
"Quite the snake oil salesman, this sniping huckster."
"The world's better off without this guy."
These are not political points, and they do nothing to further an idea. They are simply gleeful outbursts because a person who may disagree with another's ideas was violently killed. This is what bothers me.
30
@27: There is a difference between a soldier and a warrior, and if you can not see it, you are the one being naive. Also, asking for a modicum of human decency is not swearing fealty to the military. If the job is unjust, the blame lies with those who vote to and sent soldiers into battle. I see no war crimes or atrocities committed by this man, so why is he to blame for what our citizens and government trained him and sent him to do?
The point is, this man did not hop on a plane on his own and start shooting people in Iraq. He joined our military, and was sent there by our democratically elected leaders. As I made quite clear, perhaps this is wrong, and his mission was unjust, but was he to commit treason and abandon his fellow soldiers fighting in Iraq?
People who know nothing about modern warfare think that snipers simply go out there and start murdering everyone in their sights. What they actually do is mostly submit recon reports and report about enemy movements. When they do kill, it is in support of other units fighting.
The sniper's primary goal is to protect other soldiers, sometimes through aggression. But this is all immaterial anyway. So congratulate yourselves on a dead American soldier, a man who swore an oath to defend you with his life and jump with joy that he was a gun owner and you can use his corpse at a political tool. I hope it makes you really, really, happy.
The point is, this man did not hop on a plane on his own and start shooting people in Iraq. He joined our military, and was sent there by our democratically elected leaders. As I made quite clear, perhaps this is wrong, and his mission was unjust, but was he to commit treason and abandon his fellow soldiers fighting in Iraq?
People who know nothing about modern warfare think that snipers simply go out there and start murdering everyone in their sights. What they actually do is mostly submit recon reports and report about enemy movements. When they do kill, it is in support of other units fighting.
The sniper's primary goal is to protect other soldiers, sometimes through aggression. But this is all immaterial anyway. So congratulate yourselves on a dead American soldier, a man who swore an oath to defend you with his life and jump with joy that he was a gun owner and you can use his corpse at a political tool. I hope it makes you really, really, happy.
29
So, a hurricane comes and tops the levies in New Orleans, and then I say, "Let's fix the levies! Let's fix the levies!" But we don't fix them, because freedom. And then another hurricane comes, and it tops the levies again.
And I say "See? We need to fix the levies!" That's not "cheering" topping the levies. That's not "exploiting" the disaster. The shit's going to keep happening until we fix the levies and it's right to say so.
When we warn that fetishizing guns will lead to nothing good, and then sure enough, gun fetishists get shot, and we say "OK, will you listen now?" that is not cheering murder. That's not exploiting their death.
These are fake rules of decorum designed to prevent anyone from pointing out the problem. Again and again and again the gun loons who worship guns like false idols will say anything to squelch any discussion of this problem. They can't make their case. Instead they to to silence anyone who speaks out.
Of course it's fucking heart rending. People are being killed over nothing. That sucks worse than anything. That's why need to take action. And we need to keep saying it especially after yet another person is uselessly slain.
It's an insult to the dead to insist we are not allowed to address what caused their death because that's "exploiting" their death.
And I say "See? We need to fix the levies!" That's not "cheering" topping the levies. That's not "exploiting" the disaster. The shit's going to keep happening until we fix the levies and it's right to say so.
When we warn that fetishizing guns will lead to nothing good, and then sure enough, gun fetishists get shot, and we say "OK, will you listen now?" that is not cheering murder. That's not exploiting their death.
These are fake rules of decorum designed to prevent anyone from pointing out the problem. Again and again and again the gun loons who worship guns like false idols will say anything to squelch any discussion of this problem. They can't make their case. Instead they to to silence anyone who speaks out.
Of course it's fucking heart rending. People are being killed over nothing. That sucks worse than anything. That's why need to take action. And we need to keep saying it especially after yet another person is uselessly slain.
It's an insult to the dead to insist we are not allowed to address what caused their death because that's "exploiting" their death.
28
@26: of course i realize that. it infuriates me to this day, that's why i said it. do you think they died in defense of the nation? do you think they died to protect our freedom from Saddam Hussein?
i do not mean to insult their bravery, however foolhardy, only the jingoistic lie americans tell themselves so they can live with their needless deaths, and those of the countless thousands of iraqis.
"how do you ask a man to be the last one to die for a mistake?" - john kerry, US SoS
i do not mean to insult their bravery, however foolhardy, only the jingoistic lie americans tell themselves so they can live with their needless deaths, and those of the countless thousands of iraqis.
"how do you ask a man to be the last one to die for a mistake?" - john kerry, US SoS
27
A question for those who insist that service automatically begets respect: Do you convey the same unquestioning fealty to those who served other nations? After all, to follow the the logic, even the illiterate, murderous thugs that comprised the army of my avatar undoubtably thought they were fighting for "their country, right or wrong". Do you feel they are beyond criticism in death because of their "sacrifice"? If not, then you're being hypocritical.
26
@23
You do realize that when you say the war in Iraq was a waste of "blood and treasure" the blood part is in reference to men and women who served in Iraq
You do realize that when you say the war in Iraq was a waste of "blood and treasure" the blood part is in reference to men and women who served in Iraq
25
@18 - Yep, it's pretty pathetic to see people cheering his murder because they disagree with him on gun issues. I mean the guy does sound like kind of an ass, but as @12 put so well, he did a job few could, ultimately at the orders of his civilian superiors under a representative democracy.
But yeah, he was murdered trying to help somebody. So let's all slap each other on the back and count it as a point for the anti-gun folks.
But yeah, he was murdered trying to help somebody. So let's all slap each other on the back and count it as a point for the anti-gun folks.
24
this is pretty insightful.
another indictment against the US Military and the distorted thinking it needs to induce.
hero? less than is human more like it.
a tragedy all around...
another indictment against the US Military and the distorted thinking it needs to induce.
hero? less than is human more like it.
a tragedy all around...
23
@12: are you asserting that "sniper in iraq" was a job that HAD to be performed by an American one way or the other, and that we should be grateful that this guy was willing to do it?
how about we shouldn't have been there in the 1st fucking place? how about the entire misadventure was a waste of blood and treasure?
i am sick and tired of the "honor their service" tripe that stifles discussion of the elephant in the room, the Pentagon, it's budget, american military culture, the nationalism it engenders.
this guy was part of what's wrong with america, not what's right.
how about we shouldn't have been there in the 1st fucking place? how about the entire misadventure was a waste of blood and treasure?
i am sick and tired of the "honor their service" tripe that stifles discussion of the elephant in the room, the Pentagon, it's budget, american military culture, the nationalism it engenders.
this guy was part of what's wrong with america, not what's right.
22
@12- you have a quaint, naive concept of the US military and its purpose. Yes, the man put his life on the line doing things few of us are willing to do. And I grant that he most likely felt that he was doing them for noble reasons. He was wrong. He was sent to Iraq to kill for oil. He likely murdered more people than he "saved". His very presence likely caused much suffering that would not have otherwise occurred. He does not deserve "respect" just for joining the military. In uniform or out, respect is earned. Some soldiers earn it, such as Bradley Manning. Some, such as this guy, don't.
21
Just wanting to give a little additional perspective here. Clearly, the more you get to know Chris Kyle, the more flawed you realize he was. But there's not necessarily a cause-and-effect relationship between the killing he did during war and the unsavory aspects of his personality (and cause-and-effect in either direction).
When I first saw about his shooting and the book he wrote, I was immediately reminded of Vasily Zaitsev, the Soviet sniper who killed countless Nazis during the Battle of Stalingrad and who was played by Jude Law in the film Enemy at the Gates. Zaitsev went on to live a regular civilian life, and I would be surprised if there's any indication he was a nutcase. And really, the man deserves to be remembered as a hero, in the truest sense.
I'm also reminded of the new Oscar-nominated documentary The Gatekeepers, about the former heads of Israel's Shin Bet security service. These are men whose job it was to order targeted killings, and yet they've been able to maintain a sense of morality about the taking of human life and the cause in which they were doing so.
When I first saw about his shooting and the book he wrote, I was immediately reminded of Vasily Zaitsev, the Soviet sniper who killed countless Nazis during the Battle of Stalingrad and who was played by Jude Law in the film Enemy at the Gates. Zaitsev went on to live a regular civilian life, and I would be surprised if there's any indication he was a nutcase. And really, the man deserves to be remembered as a hero, in the truest sense.
I'm also reminded of the new Oscar-nominated documentary The Gatekeepers, about the former heads of Israel's Shin Bet security service. These are men whose job it was to order targeted killings, and yet they've been able to maintain a sense of morality about the taking of human life and the cause in which they were doing so.
19
@10
Um, you don't really want to bring domestic violence into this. Oh, and I'd leave education out too. Because a map of literacy or high school graduation or college graduation has the same redneck gun-loving states right at the bottom. Same as domestic violence.
Not looking good for gun ownership if you are correlating it with those basic measures of social order...
Um, you don't really want to bring domestic violence into this. Oh, and I'd leave education out too. Because a map of literacy or high school graduation or college graduation has the same redneck gun-loving states right at the bottom. Same as domestic violence.
Not looking good for gun ownership if you are correlating it with those basic measures of social order...
18
Yeah, there's a little too much glee in the comments for my taste. Politically, I'm on the same side of you all...but this guy was just murdered, apparently at the hand of a vet suffering from PTSD, who Kyle was trying to help. I obviously don't agree with his views, but his heart did seem to be in the right place.
17
@12 thank you for your eloquence
I think the real point here is that there are a lot of Veterans already back in the United States and even more coming back that suffer from PTSD and TBI, and that the present mental health system isn't equipped to deal with them. So much so, that the only people who are doing anything are private citizens without training.
But yes, dancing on the grave of someone who owned guns is a great way to demonstrate an anti-violent stance.
I think the real point here is that there are a lot of Veterans already back in the United States and even more coming back that suffer from PTSD and TBI, and that the present mental health system isn't equipped to deal with them. So much so, that the only people who are doing anything are private citizens without training.
But yes, dancing on the grave of someone who owned guns is a great way to demonstrate an anti-violent stance.
16
We had a Vietnam era sniper, Dave Nelson, visit my lit class in the early '90's. He had something like 72 kills, and had spent quite a bit of time in the PTSD program at American Lake, after a stint in prison. He knew he was crazy, and tried to hide from humanity as much as possible. Killing that many people is not healthy.
14
You have a point. His personal, rhetorical, philosophical and political shortcomings are not the story here.
The focus should be on the issue of civilian gun ownership vs. civilian safety and claims by the NRA and other groups about how guns make us safer, not more vulnerable. For that is the true value of this story. It pops the fantasy balloon of the personal-defense argument.
The focus should be on the issue of civilian gun ownership vs. civilian safety and claims by the NRA and other groups about how guns make us safer, not more vulnerable. For that is the true value of this story. It pops the fantasy balloon of the personal-defense argument.
12
Perhaps his politics are to be reviled, perhaps he was a man who made a living killing people, and perhaps those killings were unjust based upon the reason he was sent there.
But for heaven's sake, the man put his life on the line doing things few of us are willing to do, in situations none of us are likely equipped to handle, and he did it for the good of his country, for right or wrong. He saved enlisted American lives overseas, and likely many, many Middle Eastern people by taking out terrorists and militants.
He deserves some honor in his death, not this oddly gleeful celebration of his undeserved and violent death. You dishonor all our servicemen and servicewomen with this nonsense, and should be ashamed.
This is not some basement-dwelling internet troll bloviating nonsense about gun rights, this was an American soldier who put his life on the line everyday so another American did not have to. He deserves respect for his sacrifices, even if we disagree with his politics.
But for heaven's sake, the man put his life on the line doing things few of us are willing to do, in situations none of us are likely equipped to handle, and he did it for the good of his country, for right or wrong. He saved enlisted American lives overseas, and likely many, many Middle Eastern people by taking out terrorists and militants.
He deserves some honor in his death, not this oddly gleeful celebration of his undeserved and violent death. You dishonor all our servicemen and servicewomen with this nonsense, and should be ashamed.
This is not some basement-dwelling internet troll bloviating nonsense about gun rights, this was an American soldier who put his life on the line everyday so another American did not have to. He deserves respect for his sacrifices, even if we disagree with his politics.
11
I've been very surprised that a majority of the comments on various internet sites (not political ones) seem to be calling this guy an American hero. Everything about him says "nutcase" to me.
10
When this guy was overseas sending uneducated women beaters to the grave you whiny fucks were blowing each other in the Z-club.
9
To continue 5 - the perfect gun nut cliche in the first minute
"I don't know exactly what he's doin but he's definitely against the second amendment and he's tryin' to ban everything,"
"I don't know exactly what he's doin but he's definitely against the second amendment and he's tryin' to ban everything,"
8
Apparently he had a crusader cross tattooed on his arms. Muslims were "savages" who he said he'd hate for the rest of his life.
The world's better off without this guy.
The world's better off without this guy.
5
1st minute, every gun nut cliche. ball cap, goatee, punisher polo. he doesn't know what obama proposed, but he knows it violates the 2nd. then the slippery slope fallacy.
i can't watch more.
i can't watch more.
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