Slog
News & ArtsThursday, January 31, 2013
Guns "The Second Amendment Is Not a Suicide Pact"
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:30 PM
A must-read post at Daily Kos.
17
@14: Disagree with me all you want, but the fact remains that you're GOING to get painted with the crazy brush until reasonable supporters of gun rights become louder than the crazy fucks. Until you do that, you are letting them speak for you.
Get on it.
Get on it.
15
What gets me, is that those who self-righteously assert that their personal arsenal represents a defense against tyranny, like to present themselves as the Ultimate Patriot. They love America SO MUCH!
But the reality is that they hate America. They're so paranoid and embittered and disconnected from modernity that they despise and fear the United States. They have so little faith in the American system, and so little confidence in its stability, that they in fact HATE the United States.
No real patriot arms himself in the expectation that he or she will be using those arms against local, state, or federal officials.
If you want to be a paranoid wacko, okay. But don't wrap yourself in the flag while you're doing it. Good patriots do not fantasize about using deadly force to defend their double-wide from the National Guard.
But the reality is that they hate America. They're so paranoid and embittered and disconnected from modernity that they despise and fear the United States. They have so little faith in the American system, and so little confidence in its stability, that they in fact HATE the United States.
No real patriot arms himself in the expectation that he or she will be using those arms against local, state, or federal officials.
If you want to be a paranoid wacko, okay. But don't wrap yourself in the flag while you're doing it. Good patriots do not fantasize about using deadly force to defend their double-wide from the National Guard.
14
@10
"If you are not the particular breed of crazy the article is talking about, then clearly the article is not about you."
You're wrong.
They used the "crazy" items to claim that people who held the anti-tyranny viewpoint were "crazy" because they also believed "crazy" things.
Now, when an obvious example to the contrary is presented (I voted for Obama) then that should show that their position is invalid.
"If you are not the particular breed of crazy the article is talking about, then clearly the article is not about you."
You're wrong.
They used the "crazy" items to claim that people who held the anti-tyranny viewpoint were "crazy" because they also believed "crazy" things.
Now, when an obvious example to the contrary is presented (I voted for Obama) then that should show that their position is invalid.
13
@11... waitwaitwait... you're missing the good bit - it's where the military is SPLIT in its allegiences and firepower! No one knows which way the battle's gonna go! But then the camera swings to ME, me and my trusty....
12
@9: If a mugger sneaks up behind you and puts a knife or gun against your back, your gun can't help you, either. In fact, it'll most likely just get stolen along with your cash.
11
@8: I'm fascinated by the people who seem to simultaneously believe that the government is going to institute a fascist police state and that the military and police are going to defect to the armed patriots' side. Who'd be left to fight off? Is Obama personally gonna come to my door to oppress me or something?
Hell, for that matter, if the whole US military is going to defect, what the hell do I need a gun for? They've got plenty.
Hell, for that matter, if the whole US military is going to defect, what the hell do I need a gun for? They've got plenty.
10
@6: If you are not the particular breed of crazy the article is talking about, then clearly the article is not about you. Simple as that. However, you should really stop dismissing it as a strawman; people who are that breed of crazy do exist, and they are having an impact on the national gun debate that is out of proportion with their overall small numbers. If you are a reasonable person concerned with gun rights, those crazy fucks should be your absolute worst enemy, and you should do anything possible to minimize their impact. Getting indignant when people attack their views instead of yours won't help until you stop letting their message drown yours out.
9
"Look honey [pointing above], there is a bunch of Poly Annas gurguling-about in this blog..."
Folks, the government can not protect you. Indeed, they are not even required to do so. They merely REACT to your after-the-fact 911 call. Remember that the next time you get mugged and your tampons get stolen fellas...
Ban lunatics and criminals, not constitutionally-protected speech and guns.
Folks, the government can not protect you. Indeed, they are not even required to do so. They merely REACT to your after-the-fact 911 call. Remember that the next time you get mugged and your tampons get stolen fellas...
Ban lunatics and criminals, not constitutionally-protected speech and guns.
8
@2: If you'll recall, regular commenters here on Slog have made the same assertion: should there be some sort of totalitarian takeover of guns on the part of the government, the members of the armed forces would revolt against their superiors en masse and fight on the side of the rebels. They are utterly convinced of this. (I would like to it, but I can't recall the exact phrasing used.)
@6: Are you saying it's Daily Kos making the gun nuts into straw men, or that the gun nuts rant against their Marxist, gun-grabbing Obama straw man? I'm not sure which you're meaning. If it's the former:
The bit about bicycle paths is hyperbole, granted, (it is hyperbole, isn't it?!) but the rest has been a coordinated message from Fox, and they certainly think this is what their viewers believe, or at least want to hear. These assertions have been made not just once, nor by random individuals, nor during some short time span. Fox is still pushing that narrative. Every time someone on Fox makes reference to Obama's "class warfare," that's a dog whistle. To believe it's anything else is naive to the point of absurdity.
And Fox never misses an opportunity to either scoff at or demonize the UN. That is, when they're not implying UN conspiracies to subvert the democratic process here in the US.
TL;DR: Daily Kos is not misrepresenting anybody here. Fox alone has made an empire out of selling these themes to its viewers/readers/listeners, and they're not alone. These people are out there.
More...
@6: Are you saying it's Daily Kos making the gun nuts into straw men, or that the gun nuts rant against their Marxist, gun-grabbing Obama straw man? I'm not sure which you're meaning. If it's the former:
The bit about bicycle paths is hyperbole, granted, (it is hyperbole, isn't it?!) but the rest has been a coordinated message from Fox, and they certainly think this is what their viewers believe, or at least want to hear. These assertions have been made not just once, nor by random individuals, nor during some short time span. Fox is still pushing that narrative. Every time someone on Fox makes reference to Obama's "class warfare," that's a dog whistle. To believe it's anything else is naive to the point of absurdity.
And Fox never misses an opportunity to either scoff at or demonize the UN. That is, when they're not implying UN conspiracies to subvert the democratic process here in the US.
TL;DR: Daily Kos is not misrepresenting anybody here. Fox alone has made an empire out of selling these themes to its viewers/readers/listeners, and they're not alone. These people are out there.
7
and here i thought it did address "the issues", the issue being the purpose of the 2nd. i've been told repeatedly and vehemently that the reason for the right is to resist tyranny. back in 1790, that was a viable concern as old blighty made an attempt to do precisely that, impose tyranny, 2 decades later.
the other reason, to suppress rebellion, which the militias were actually used for, being it slave revolts or the whiskey rebellion, is a little less celebrated.
the other reason, to suppress rebellion, which the militias were actually used for, being it slave revolts or the whiskey rebellion, is a little less celebrated.
6
You have to appreciate the well-balanced and objective approach to the subject in that article.
"The other tricky part of this is that (of course) the people most obsessed with defending themselves against government 'tyranny' are the people who see 'tyranny' in absolutely everything. The United Nations is coming for them; Barack Obama is a crazy Marxist; bicycle paths are a sign of the devil."
And yet I voted for Obama.
I guess it is always easier to rant against a straw man than to actually address the issues.
I will echo #5 and ask why this is a "must read"?
"The other tricky part of this is that (of course) the people most obsessed with defending themselves against government 'tyranny' are the people who see 'tyranny' in absolutely everything. The United Nations is coming for them; Barack Obama is a crazy Marxist; bicycle paths are a sign of the devil."
And yet I voted for Obama.
I guess it is always easier to rant against a straw man than to actually address the issues.
I will echo #5 and ask why this is a "must read"?
5
Why is this must read?
There's nothing in there that gun control advocates haven't already said a million times.
There's nothing in there that gun control advocates haven't already said a million times.
4
Best post-Newtown article I've read. So many Americans (my own father included) actually believe the 2nd amendment's primary purpose is to protect us against "tyranny." Even as a kid I knew he couldn't stand up to the military, but he claimed most soldiers would abandon the government in the event of a revolution and fight on "our" side. It's almost like a small part of him WANTED there to be a revolution. I wish more rational people called out this insanity for what it is.
2
It's kind of sad that "Jesus-sounding stuff" is now a synonym for "crazy stuff." It used to mean using words like "verily" and being mellow.
"If tyranny does come to America, your little closet stockpile is not going to do a damn bit of good against the Air Force." THIS. They'd be better off being survivalists and learning to hunt and sew and quilt and make tools from scratch. That's some sensible crazy.
"If tyranny does come to America, your little closet stockpile is not going to do a damn bit of good against the Air Force." THIS. They'd be better off being survivalists and learning to hunt and sew and quilt and make tools from scratch. That's some sensible crazy.
1
Why not? The paranoid, sadistic Gun Supremacists' gross misinterpretation of the Second Amendment, combined with the RepubliKKKan Party's status as the world's premier apocalyptic death cult, have created a slow-motion murder suicide against the whole country.
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