Slog

Slog Music

Music, Nightlife,
and Drinks

Sunday, January 27, 2013

Nightclub Fires Don't Kill People, People Kill People

Posted by on Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 11:16 AM

At least 232 people have died in a fire that swept through a nightclub in Santa Maria, a university town in southern Brazil. Many of the victims succumbed to the toxic fumes, or were crushed to death in the crowd's panicked efforts to escape. The fire reportedly started when a band set off fireworks.

It's a horrible tragedy, and the focus for the moment should be on comforting the grieving. But...

The priority for the authorities is now to identify the dead with many distressed relatives arriving at the scene, but in the hours ahead the focus will turn to the cause of this accident and safety procedures at the club, the BBC's Gary Duffy reports from Sao Paulo.

The strict fire codes we have—capacity limits, emergency exits, sprinkler systems, bans on certain activities, etc.—came in the wake of similar tragedies. Because, you know, the gun nuts are kinda metaphorically right when they say that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." The same is true of nightclubs. So we regulate the people running these night clubs in an effort to avoid preventable tragedies like that which just happened in Brazil. If the authorities find the fire codes weren't up to best practices, one hopes they'll tighten them. If they find that the night club owners violated existing codes, they'll presumedly be prosecuted, and local authorities will hopefully redouble their efforts to enforce the regulations already in place.

Likewise, when we talk of gun control, we're not really talking about regulating guns, but rather, regulating the people who use guns. Our nation is suffering an epidemic of gun violence totally disproportionate to that being suffered anywhere in the world that isn't in the midst of a bloody civil war. Clearly, there are regulations that might lessen this ongoing American tragedy. Perhaps, for example, keeping guns out of the hands of felons and the mentally ill via mandatory background checks on all private gun sales.

So yeah, guns on their own don't kill people. But then, neither do nightclubs. Our goal as a nation should be to find the proper regulatory balance between the benefits of gun ownership, both individual and societal, and the cost. And given our annual gun carnage, it is currently reasonable to argue that this balance is tragically out of whack.

 

Comments (103) RSS

Newest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
lolorhone 103
The nightclub fire codes and regulations= gun control and regulation argument is not a conflation and it is not too soon to be made. It is a well-timed and apt comparison. APT!
Posted by lolorhone on January 29, 2013 at 8:56 PM · Report this
102
That's because I'm getting paid man. Don't you get it?

Actually i am one of the only people here who is pointing out the bias. People like you are pretending to be level headed voices of reason. Whatever it takes to avoid the issues I guess, but the lap boy routine is pretty pathetic.
Posted by NancyBalls on January 28, 2013 at 4:37 PM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 101
@100

The Stranger was founded in 1991, that's 22 years ago, on the premise that it would not be "fair and balanced." The Stranger is supposed to openly advocate for a clear point of view. It's supposed to wear its political agenda on its sleeve. Everybody knows this. Everybody gets it.

Except you.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on January 28, 2013 at 3:28 PM · Report this
100
What's your point? This place IS biased.

Is this just another convenient way to divert attention and avoid critically thinking about the issues?
Posted by NancyBalls on January 28, 2013 at 1:05 PM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 99
@71

You know your very first comment on the Slog is how you are sick of this place. That's all you ever say is how you can't take it any more and you're out of here.

Month after month after month. "I've had it with the bias on the Slog!" You obviously don't mean anything you say.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on January 28, 2013 at 11:19 AM · Report this
Eastpike 98
I like the comparison of Fire code violation to criminal code violation, but you cannot suggest that someone (maybe in Brazil, idk) would be prosecuted for a fire code violation. There is no criminal code for fire code violation. There would be civil liability in any case, violation or not. When push comes to shove, being code compliant is more of a way of passing the liability off to someone else other than the building or business. If anyone is to blame- you seem to miss this entirely- it is the inspectors that should catch such violations.
Posted by Eastpike on January 28, 2013 at 10:40 AM · Report this
sissoucat 97
What ? Kinder Surprise eggs are banned in the US ??

And you say you're a free country ? My kids would disagree !
Posted by sissoucat on January 28, 2013 at 4:28 AM · Report this
96
Nightclub fires are going to be blamed for all these deaths, and you know what that means: gummint action. Better stock up on nightclub fires while you still can.
Posted by midwaypete on January 27, 2013 at 11:13 PM · Report this
Puty 95
@Goldy: I don't usually read zillion-comment threads but this was a good one. The Cthulu guy was smart and rational and Tacoma Traveller had a funny screed about literally having sex with the second amendment. A lot of gun supporters said kooky things about tyranny while other gun supporters acted like martyrs. Basically a good time was had by all.

And it WAS a good post. One of your best on this topic, I thought. Please keep it up.
Posted by Puty on January 27, 2013 at 10:44 PM · Report this
94
@88? Was that a response to me? I'm trying to say that I'm pro gun control and I don't get why a country that has outlawed a shit load of things in the name "of protecting the children" won't actually tackle something that kills a large number of kids. Any time something kills a couple of kids there's always a miss lovejoy screaming "Won't someone think of the children" and it's banned...unless it's a gun. Then it's a 2nd amendment right and you damn well better not talk about changing that, cause that's what makes America so free damn it...I'm not to sure what your point is...
Posted by j2patter on January 27, 2013 at 10:29 PM · Report this
93
I suppose I ought to be shocked, but I'm not. Everyone with half a brain knows that Goldy and the rest of the Seattle "progressives" do not, never have, and never will give a flying fuck about anyone but themselves and their own parochial concerns. Even if it means glossing over the deaths of a couple hundred people to make the same cheap political point they've made a hundred times before.
Posted by Mister G on January 27, 2013 at 10:13 PM · Report this
NotSean 92
Goldy, the post was not disgusting.
Posted by NotSean on January 27, 2013 at 9:59 PM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 91
@78 yeah, misappropriating tragedies and creating false analogies is totally appropriate discourse. Disgusting.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on January 27, 2013 at 9:30 PM · Report this
90
80: yes, i really own the nra, i mean run the nra. tim keck hired me to spy on you because you are a gay tacoma liberal. my cuban grandma taught me conyo when i was 5 btw. it was the first bad word me and my brother ever learned. i didn't know it was another word for fruit.
Posted by tim koch on January 27, 2013 at 9:28 PM · Report this
Tacoma Traveler 89
87,

You're so right! We all know that those liberal Public Health people are out to promote smoking! Hell, Newtown wouldn't have happened if those kids had been smoking when the gunman entered the school. Don't you stupid Obama people see that? The secondary smoke from all those smoking 5 year olds would have killed the gunman!

No shotgun can kill a smoker! The bullets would have just bounced off the tumors in those kids' lungs! Cigarettes for everybody! Whooo hoo!
Posted by Tacoma Traveler on January 27, 2013 at 9:23 PM · Report this
Tacoma Traveler 88
84, 85, 86

Is just exercising his god-given right to feed Four Loko hidden in a plastic egg to a toddler before asking said toddler to type a weblink for him. That right is enumerated in the Constitution! It's protected by an Amendment!
Posted by Tacoma Traveler on January 27, 2013 at 9:18 PM · Report this
87
@83 Smoking kills more than ten times the number people who die from gunshot wounds every year. The effects of secondary smoke alone cause more deaths than gunshot wounds do. Yet it's the guns you liberals want to take away.

You can fact check me here:

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statisti…

and here;

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.h…
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 9:17 PM · Report this
86
Bah, stupid links didn't work, try this one:
http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=7410
Posted by j2patter on January 27, 2013 at 9:14 PM · Report this
85
To reiterate, in the USA this is banned File:Kinder_Surprise_Christmas.jpg">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kinder… to protect children, but this is 100% legal File:Stag2wi_.jpg">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stag2w…
wtf????
Posted by j2patter on January 27, 2013 at 9:12 PM · Report this
84
So it's fine that the USA bans this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surp… to protect children, but not automatic/semi automatic weapons??
Posted by j2patter on January 27, 2013 at 9:08 PM · Report this
83
@81 - really??? Have you heard of four loko? A couple of dumb ass college students drink too much, pass out and can't remember anything and there's a state wide ban. Also compare the regulation on guns to the regulation of booze. You can't have an open bottle of beer while walking down the street but you can have a loaded gun.
Posted by j2patter on January 27, 2013 at 9:02 PM · Report this
Tacoma Traveler 82
81,

My god you're right! We all know those liberals just want to hand out shots of booze and packs of smokes to every child in the country. That's why they keep banning smoking in public places like schools and advocate for stricter enforcement of laws banning the sale of alcohol to minors! Its all a clever plot to cover up the fact that they secretly want their kids drunk and smoking!

Sweet baby Jesus, you're a genius!
Posted by Tacoma Traveler on January 27, 2013 at 8:47 PM · Report this
81
@76 "If you where to replace 'gun' with any other object and had as many kids killed per year attributed to that object, it would be outlawed asap."

Unless it was an alcoholic beverage or a tobacco product.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 8:42 PM · Report this
Tacoma Traveler 80
60, 64

I've seen the light! The NRA has finally won me over to their side!

The best way to have prevented Newtown would have been to arm every kindergartener in the country. From this day forward, President Obama must equip each and every child above the age of four years with an M-16 A1 complete with an M-203. Once the child reaches six years of age, they shall also be equipped with a LAW rocket.

Furthermore, buckets of armor piercing shells are to be kept at every student's desk, within reach. Grenades are to be handed out every morning as the child enters school. And rockets will be given out in the cafeteria during lunch, provided the child survives that long.

Oh, how could I have been so mistaken all my life! I'm getting a tattoo of the second Amendment on my ass just to show my newfound faith and devotion to the cause! I'm going to rush out to the gun show tonite to buy myself as many Claymores as I can carry on the bus. no wait... I'm not gonna ride the bus! Busses are for Communists! Each and every man is out for himself in this new world I've come to embrace, so I'm going to steal a car and bring home my munitions in that. After all, who needs laws or regulations governing car theft? Obama is a fascist for calling car theft a crime. The Constitution guarantees my right to steal a car! In fact, it says right there in Article... whatever that the Lord Jesus himself steals cars!

And, I'm not gay anymore! 60's description of me as "conyo' has enlightened me to the horrors of my previously wicked lifestyle. To prove my heterosexuality, I'm going to rape a nun while pouring sugar down the gas tank of a Prius while singing the national anthem!

What a friend we have in Jesus!
Posted by Tacoma Traveler on January 27, 2013 at 8:39 PM · Report this
79
@73 An effective deterrent of what exactly? The man who convinced the Black Panthers to arm themselves, supplied them w/ weapons, and trained them to use those weapons was a paid informer secretly working for the FBI. Probably, convincing the Panthers to carry guns was a ruse by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover undermine the black power movement. In any case, between 1967 and 1970 34 members of the Black Panther Party were shot dead by law enforcement and many others were sent to prison as a result of their gun battles with the police. This pretty much ended the movement.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 8:37 PM · Report this
Goldy 78
I'm too busy to read this giant thread in detail, so apart from the Goldy-is-an-awful-person-because-the-only-thing-worse-than-perpetrating-a-tragedy-is-attempting-to-learn-a-lesson-from-it meme, what exactly is the main critique in the comments? That nightclubs really do kill people?
Posted by Goldy on January 27, 2013 at 8:31 PM · Report this
Phoebe in Wallingford 77
No, we don't want grief porn Goldy, neither do we want gun control pontificating porn tangentially woven into every single human tragedy.

Why bother reading you when you become redundant?
Posted by Phoebe in Wallingford on January 27, 2013 at 8:18 PM · Report this
76
Class up Goldy, there's enough examples of horrific gun violence in the usa without having to use an unrelated horrific event to prove your point. Heck, look at the fact that kinder eggs are outlawed in the states, even though more children a year a killed accidentally by a gun. If you where to replace 'gun' with any other object and had as many kids killed per year attributed to that object, it would be outlawed asap.
Posted by j2patter on January 27, 2013 at 8:07 PM · Report this
75
@74 haha me too! I'd be getting like...23 minutes of pay a week
Posted by NancyBalls on January 27, 2013 at 7:59 PM · Report this
74
@71 Seriously. No one is paying me."

I certainly hope not.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 7:57 PM · Report this
73
@72 That's a well formed argument, but I still think they are an effective deterrent.
Posted by NancyBalls on January 27, 2013 at 7:57 PM · Report this
72
@70 Do you think privately owned firearms are an effective check on state power? If so, think again.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 7:54 PM · Report this
71
@39 Thanks. That's very constructive of you.

@50 I don't even know what the means

@57 Have you been to a therapist lately? You are exhibiting some severe paranoia. I'm a real person, who's sick of disgusting bias and hate-mongering going on around here. It's crazy, politically stupid, harmful to society and it makes my heart hurt. I'm also inspired by people like YOU who are so pathetically wrapped up in their own world view that they simply cannot accept that someone would have a differing opinion without being PAID. I mean, that's crazy man. Seriously. No one is paying me.
Posted by NancyBalls on January 27, 2013 at 7:54 PM · Report this
70
When the Stranger sets the stage as "Gun Nuts" vs "Liberals" it's hard to feel like my opinion will be valued, and in practice, those feelings have been justified. My personal view is that these episodes of violence are cultural, and any amount of legislation won't fix the underlying problem. I think that in this instance, giving up more of our freedoms for a small amount of security is not the solution.

I remember, way back, oh, 5 years ago we were all up in arms about the overly violent, sexually repressed media. Now it's a violation of the first amendment to even suggest that the day and night inundation with violence could possible have some secondary bearing on this recent spate of shootings. Hell, I'd even say that our violent media is a reflection of a deeper problem associated with our war faring nation, and not the other way around, but that isn't part of the conversation. In fact, those ideas are immediately marginalized without a second thought and screams of "gun nuts" and "conversative nut jobs" echo from the hollow minds of rabid "activist" internet gurus.

I think we all need to do some personal reflecting. We need to move away from demanding violence and gore in everything we see. We also need to move away from a gun-worshipping culture. We need to accept guns as part of our lives, and give them the reverence and respect they deserve. Alienating gun-owners (admittedly I am not one atm, but come from a family who owns many) before you even listen to them is not a smart tactic.

Gun owners have just as much reflection as we do. They need to think about safety and control of their weapons, and they need to think more deeply about their relationship with their weapons. What exactly does that mean? That's a complex question that's going to take a lot of thoughtful minds working together to find a solution. A more level headed approach to the conversation might bear some easily swallowed fruit.

I'm pro-rights, pro-welfare, pro-obamacare, anti-war, pro-peace. I support Palestine, and I went to the Evergreen State College. I've been accused (much more convincingly of anything I've been accused of here) of being a socialist. But when it comes to guns, I don't think we need the government involved in disarming it's citizens. I don't think the nation has evolved to the point where we can rely on the democratic process to protect us from ill-intentioned powers, and I strongly believe that Americans have a reason to fear their war mongering, imperialistic government. I think it's great to have an armed citizenry, but we need to take a deeper responsibility about what that means.

Do I have answers or solutions? Of course not. But I think we'd be a whole hell of a lot closer to finding a solution if we weren't hell bent on castrating the opposition and playing into the wholly absurd and small brained us-vs-them mentality that only the most vocal and most retarded of us subscribe to.
More...
Posted by NancyBalls on January 27, 2013 at 7:46 PM · Report this
69
@59 Yes, its true. King George wanted the people of the Americas to remain dependent weak moochers.
Posted by cracked on January 27, 2013 at 7:16 PM · Report this
68
@25 ftw. @16 Well said.
Posted by cracked on January 27, 2013 at 7:03 PM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 67
@64

You meant Tacoma Traveler at 45, right? I never said any such thing.

I don't see why you care whether or not most slog posters want to take away all guns. What influence do Slog posters have? Nobody is going to try to take away all guns, and if they did they'd not succeed. Single payer healthcare has better odds.

Goldy has an important point. It's frequently argued that gun deaths are a normal consequence of modern life. Just like traffic deaths. Or fires.

It's important to counter with the fact that without decades of sustained effort, and if we'd instead accepted the status quo of 100 years ago, we'd have 400,000 traffic deaths per year, instead of 30,000. Annual traffic deaths will soon fall below gun deaths. Why? Because we have done something about traffic risk. Gun deaths, we've done nothing, and we don't have to choose to live with the rate of gun deaths we have, any more than we had to choose to live with the rate of traffic deaths we once had. Or raging fires that destroyed whole cities.

So the "asinine" comparison stared with the NRA's paid shills. I note that these silly comparisons didn't start with you. They started with 5280, and the various sockpuppets, CPN, CascadianBacon, laughably.unbalanced and NancyBoy.

Responsible gun owners shouldn't worry about what Slog commenters say. You should worry about the gun and ammo makers taking the money you spend buying their products and giving it to the loony gun lobby to pass laws you find repugnant.

Write a letter to Colt and Winchester and the rest, and tell them you, a responsible gun owner, want the ATF to be allowed to enforce the law, and ask them to stop giving money to the NRA, "the criminal's best friend".
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on January 27, 2013 at 7:01 PM · Report this
pdonahue 66
Woah, is anybody sayin' "ban all nightclubs- a fire might break out" uh, no. These 'liberals' are saying regulate it so we can shoot off a few rounds and see a show without smoke inhalation or a bullet to the head. Why's that such a bitter taste RS?
Posted by pdonahue on January 27, 2013 at 6:56 PM · Report this
Rotten666 65
@62 Awesome. That link pretty much sums up Slog 2013.
Posted by Rotten666 on January 27, 2013 at 6:51 PM · Report this
Big Sven 64
@57: I have been on Slog for 7+ years, am active in the Dem party, and am a card-carrying ACLU member. And I own a gun.

To get it, I had to wait 10+ days, and go through a background check. With which I was fine. I keep my gun locked in a biometric safe, and I shoot a box of ammo at least once a month to keep my skills current.

As you know, I support the President's proposals. But when I see things like "fuck the second amendment," it reinforces my growing suspicion that most SLOG posters really want to take away all guns.

I will continue to support the President's proposals, but if the discussion in liberal quarters continues with assinine comparisons of all tragedies to gun violence, you will drive away the many, many liberal gun owners, who you need, and your efforts at reform will fail.
Posted by Big Sven http://onedatapoint.blogspot.com/ on January 27, 2013 at 6:42 PM · Report this
Posted by tim koch on January 27, 2013 at 6:36 PM · Report this
62
For those looking around for something to rinse the noxious taste out of their mouths:

Why the Bombings Mean That We Must Support My Politics
Posted by robotslave on January 27, 2013 at 5:50 PM · Report this
61
I'm all in favor of gun control, but this post is disgusting, Goldy.
Posted by robotslave on January 27, 2013 at 5:43 PM · Report this
60
53: dude, yell at this guy here i was just saying what he said, conyo man, im just another nobody here like anybody else.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory…

now this is for barry:

mr. president: "the role is therefore vital..."

good luck to marc trestman and the new bears coaching staff. bear down, chicago bears!
Posted by tim koch on January 27, 2013 at 5:39 PM · Report this
59
@48 The general idea behind the 2nd amendment is that people shouldn't be 100% dependent on the government for their personal security. Do you think people no longer have any reason to worry that the cops might not do a very good protecting them?
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 5:36 PM · Report this
58
Nobody has a legitimate need for high-capacity nightclubs. High capacity nightclubs are just an accident waiting to happen.

Statistics show that you're much more likely to die in a fire in a high-capacity nightclub.

What we need here are some common sense solutions, like an immediate ban on clubs with a capacity greater than say, ten.

I know that ten person capacity nightclubs won't stop all nightclub mass tragedies, but it's a good start and if it saves just one life, then it's worth it.
Posted by CPN on January 27, 2013 at 5:26 PM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 57
@50

Here. Strictly an NRA shill. Working from the same script as "CPN". 'Speaking as a liberal...' Sockpuppets of the same guy. There's a couple others. Maybe the NRA pays some kid in China to run these socks.

I don't know who he thinks he's fooling.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on January 27, 2013 at 5:22 PM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 56
Also, despite Goldy's protestations here that all he wants are background checks, he'd be happy if guns were completely banned. Look at the way he salivated over the buy back program.

The only reason I have started to have problems with background checks is look at the reports the FBI has on people. Did you guys forget that the government is already detaining multiple people for committing no crime other than being unwilling to participate with proceedings? Did you guys forget that the government is steadily creating files on any dissenters, and may make it illegal for you to purchase a gun if you, say, protested in college or participated in the Occupy movement? These are permissions I don't want to give to the government, and you shouldn't either.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on January 27, 2013 at 5:21 PM · Report this
dnt trust me 55
@51
Thank You Cato!!! I won't feel so bad in the future when I say Goldy Post = Shit. Let's call him out on it every time, me and you.
Posted by dnt trust me on January 27, 2013 at 5:09 PM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 54
@38 you're right. @32 also makes a winning point.

It's too bad the liberal slog-worshippers are too busy sucking off any pro-gun control post to realize how inane this post actually is, and call anybody who disagrees with the moronic completely imagined correlation a troll or shill.

Nevermind that one could point to many situations of authoritarian control where an under-armed public was forced to submit to the control of either the incredibly anti-public government or illegal roving groups of rebels.

But, fuck it. Lets neuter everybody and trust the government. You know, the same people who have been consistently making anything that doesn't benefit corporations illegal.

Fuck you overly emotional government worshippers.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on January 27, 2013 at 5:04 PM · Report this
Tacoma Traveler 53
I want to literally fuck the Second Amendment. I would like to gain legal access to the National Archives, and be allowed to open the vault containing the original document of the Bill of Rights. I would then like to cut a hole in the page where the Second Amendment appears, and then penetrate it with my penis, masturbating until I climax, and then dribble all over whatever part of the Second Amendment is not destroyed by the act of having cut a hole in it.

The Scrotal SCOTUS can then deliberate on whatever intent the Founders had that might be revealed in the combination of smudged ink and dried spooge that remains. Perhaps this will serve as a Rorschach test for would-be appointees to the Court in future years. I can just see the Senate asking a candidate to interpret that, and tell them if they see butterflies or puppies in my dribblings.

It would be just as relevant as mindless discussions such as what appear in the comments section of the Stranger. Particularly when we try to interpret the dribblings of 18th Century colonists so we can then decide how to live our 21st Century lives in as retrograde a fashion as possible. Rather than moving forward with a real discussion of how we can best improve the quality of life for our citizens, you lot seem content with hagiographies and mindless devotion to the past.

Fuck the Second Amendment. Fuck slavery. Fuck the Electoral College. And fuck this bullshit discussion over what people who lived in the era of the ball-and-musket would have thought about Surface-to-Air missile launchers. The 18th Century is gone it's dead, we don't live in that era anymore, and I refuse to be governed by ideas that predominated at that time. I want 21st Century solutions to 21st Century problems. Hero worshiping the founders will not move us forward.
More...
Posted by Tacoma Traveler on January 27, 2013 at 5:03 PM · Report this
52
46: your right. the prez is already saying he is go by what the supremes have already ruled in the past (IE, tradition lawful purposes, etc). but the m16 derivatives and the real nasty military application stuff is going to be fair game i think by the feds, as it should be, this isn't the 1800's anymore with colt pistols and stuff. the founders themselves would have been all over getting rid of, as much as possible, this new military grade shit they got on the streets now, because its just bad for the commons. this was supposed to be a place to peaceably do business and stuff, this other gun (or automatic military rifle i should say in this case) massacre stuff is bad for all that i think.
Posted by tim koch on January 27, 2013 at 5:01 PM · Report this
Cato the Younger Younger 51
Given the level of shit Goldy usually posts this happens to be one of his most insightful pieces.
Posted by Cato the Younger Younger on January 27, 2013 at 4:49 PM · Report this
sperifera 50
@37 - Perhaps you wouldn't be accused of being a shill if your comments here on Slog were public, but they aren't. As memory serves me you surfaced post-Newtown, but that's speculation since your past comments are hidden. You claim to be a liberal, but none of your "liberal" views are shown. Liberals generally aren't afraid to hide their opinions...
Posted by sperifera on January 27, 2013 at 4:47 PM · Report this
Gurldoggie 49
I'm right there with you. Trolls don't want to admit it, but your analogy makes perfect sense.

A sane code of public safety tries to foresee dangerous situations and regulates behavior to prevent them. Hence building codes, the FAA, the Food & Drug Administration etc. When those regulations fail to prevent catastrophes, sane people re-evaluate them. We take medicines off the market, ground fleets of airplanes, pass tighter fire codes, etc. That this is a truism in every situation EXCEPT American gun ownership tells you that something is seriously wrong with our laws, that lawmakers are not truly interested in public safety, or both.
Posted by Gurldoggie http://gurldogg.blogspot.com on January 27, 2013 at 4:30 PM · Report this
Tacoma Traveler 48
The Second Amendment is just as out of context and outdated as the Third Amendment.
Posted by Tacoma Traveler on January 27, 2013 at 4:28 PM · Report this
47
@45 Why only the 2nd amendment? Why not the whole bill of rights? Civil rights are for pussies.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 4:23 PM · Report this
46
@44 More specifically, the Supreme Court has said that a ban on the private ownership of handguns is unconstitutional.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 4:20 PM · Report this
Tacoma Traveler 45
You know what?

Fuck the Second Amendment.
Posted by Tacoma Traveler on January 27, 2013 at 4:19 PM · Report this
44
37: the regulation of arms is in the 2nd amendment. so thats where the gun control stuff comes from, which the sc has already stated cannot be an absolute ban in cities or states. but outside of that, gun regulations themselves are constitutional, they just are. the nra are the ones being historically irrational in the public arena in this case.
Posted by tim koch on January 27, 2013 at 4:18 PM · Report this
43
@37 Why don't you share some of your brilliant ideas about how to reduce gun violence w/o violating the 2nd amendment instead of going on about how unfair everybody is to you?
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 4:18 PM · Report this
tainte 42
my my my, i'm once bitten twice shy BABE
Posted by tainte on January 27, 2013 at 4:13 PM · Report this
41
Ah, Goldy. Back on the grief porn biz. Honey, a word of advice.... when you get those impulses, just beat off at home in private, and get it out of your system. There's no need to put it out there for everyone else.
Posted by Keep it to yourself on January 27, 2013 at 4:11 PM · Report this
40
@37 Fuck off Nazi!
Posted by Blue Balled on January 27, 2013 at 4:10 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 39
@ 37, it's TOE the line. Not "tow."
Posted by Matt from Denver on January 27, 2013 at 4:09 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 38
@ 31 & 36, take a good look at the name of the poster @30...
Posted by Matt from Denver on January 27, 2013 at 4:07 PM · Report this
37
I remember during the election I would frequent republican controlled message boards and websites, and post well thought out, considerate, and polite messages only to be barraged with accusations of anti-americanism and insincerity, regardless of how I presented myself.

It's kinda the same thing here on Slog these days.

I'm a liberal. I own guns and I don't support gun control. I honestly think there are better ways to combat violence than violating the 2nd amendment. Maybe that includes some forms of gun control. Maybe. We'd have to have a rational discussion about that, and the Stranger staff has made it abundantly clear that they aren't willing to do anything but insult and marginalize dissenting opinions, and the vast majority of commentors are happy to tow the magazine line.

You guys are becoming a caricature of liberalism. I've said it before, but Slog is becoming, willfully or not, the left's answer to Drudge; Tone deaf, over the top, intolerant, and mean spirited.

And since it happens every time someone disagrees with gun control around here, it's incredibly pathetic way to accuse people who disagree with you of being a paid shill.
Posted by NancyBalls on January 27, 2013 at 4:04 PM · Report this
Posted by tim koch on January 27, 2013 at 3:52 PM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 35
Oh, I don't know, @31. @30 is pretty good, but I think @32 is even better.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty http://www.nra.org on January 27, 2013 at 3:48 PM · Report this
Gern Blanston 34
There's no way a band should be allowed to use pyrotechnics in a nightclub. This is exactly what happened in Rhode Island with Great White a few years ago. Leave the fireworks for the arenas and the stadiums.
Posted by Gern Blanston on January 27, 2013 at 3:45 PM · Report this
dnt trust me 33
I saw that headline and immediately thought of thinking man's rave kid Dave Segal. Remind me Horse Ass, what was that scandal 8 or so years where Segal proved himself scum?
Posted by dnt trust me on January 27, 2013 at 3:34 PM · Report this
32
@ Goldy,#6
"I've got nothing to add to this story but context."

Speaking as a long time Seattle resident who now lives in Rio but still reads slog regularly, ontext is not what you added. You've taken a horrific event *out of context* in order to make a point about an unrelated issue in a separate country.

Posted by David Lavin on January 27, 2013 at 3:22 PM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 31
@30 wins today's contest.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on January 27, 2013 at 3:12 PM · Report this
30
Wow, Goldy, you're an asshole.
Posted by Confluence on January 27, 2013 at 3:03 PM · Report this
29
i meant with the older empty buildings btw.
Posted by tim koch on January 27, 2013 at 2:53 PM · Report this
28
is anyone here surprised that the bar and performance establishments are owned by sketchy people? i thought that was old news, but me and goldy (and jen) know that back east, shit like this happened for insurance reasons all the time. out here the right wing bar owners are gay republicans who act like they care about people but they are still, you know, scuzzy right wing bar owners. they can go fuck themselves x2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZazEM8cg…
Posted by tim koch on January 27, 2013 at 2:41 PM · Report this
Tacoma Traveler 27
I have a problem with Utopians.

By Utopians I mean anybody that thinks they can profoundly alter human nature by political, religious, or any other means. When human law is in conflict with the laws of nature, it seems logical to me to revise human law so as to bring in into harmony with the natural order. One cannot do the reverse. Imagine passing an ordinance that required everyone to be born with six digits instead of five. Imagine passing a fatwa that anyone born with less than two heads is morally inferior. or preaching a sermon that only those who live to be 150 years of age shall enter the kingdom of god.

And yet, we cling to the idea that we can do this through government, and that all who make policy are attempting to do this through government. To me, banning assault weapons is a practical barrier to access for those already inclined to do violence. I am not suggesting that doing so will make people inherently less violent, nor do i think anyone could remove violent impulses from the human species. I'm just trying to keep assault weapons out of the hands of those so inclined, so as to limit the destruction they can cause.

The gun nuts say we have to alter the way humans think, to make them less violent. We should keep guns freely available to anyone, and somehow undo hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary impulses toward violence rather than limit access to the tools of violence. It's no secret that the natural political allies of these people are the guys who think you can pray away the gay. They are, in a word, Utopian.

I see Utopianism as delusional. The Soviets and the Fascists both had visions of remaking human nature. So did eugenicists. So do the religious. So do the people who look for answers in UFOs, Ramtha, and the Mayan Calendar. And whenever we let these fuckers run something, whenever we put them in charge of a government or a church or whatever, we get Jim Jones or the Heaven's Gate cult, or Yugoslavia or Rwanda. It always ends very badly.

Mother Nature's laws have no lawyers, no courts, and no appeal system. You cannot repeal the Law of Gravity by referendum, and no legislature can overturn the Law of Entropy. Nor can you undo the basic human drives carried in our genes simply by wishing them away. But you can work to limit the harm caused by our very human drives. We can regulate access to the tools that increase the harm caused by those who lack self-control.
More...
Posted by Tacoma Traveler on January 27, 2013 at 2:31 PM · Report this
sperifera 26
@17 - As a (likely paid) NRA shill, you are fucking nuts, bro.

Really, it's so easy to see through you, ya NancyBoy, that you might as well be glass.

And @13 wins today's contest.
Posted by sperifera on January 27, 2013 at 2:27 PM · Report this
25
The only way to fight bad fire is with good fire.
Posted by pox on January 27, 2013 at 2:25 PM · Report this
24
Since you started I would say there is an analogy, but not quite as you map it.

You are saying

gun:AR ban::disco:fire code

The left hand side relationship takes away a higher power class of guns. The right hand side uses regulations to make all classes safe.

If you want to make the analogy you would have to ban the use of an entire class of disco, say small and urban in a old downtown setting where buildings are older and burn easier, while allowing clean new discos in the suburbs.
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on January 27, 2013 at 2:09 PM · Report this
lark 23
Goldy,
I just read about what happened in Santa Maria, Brazil before I read SLOG. Absolutely tragic. It reminded me of that Warwick, Rhode Island fire caused by Great White's pyrotechnics nearly a decade ago.

However, a better correlation would be what happened in Chicago yesterday:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local…

7 killed in one day and one of the victims was one of four siblings gunned downed:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130…

"Shirley Chambers, whose two other sons and daughter were shot in separate attacks more than a decade ago, was left grieving again on Saturday, WLS-TV reported."

This is most unfortunate and senseless.I don't believe any of these killings involved assault rifles.

An equally important discussion concerning gun violence and urban America must ensue. This is horrible.
Posted by lark on January 27, 2013 at 1:54 PM · Report this
22
"Our nation is suffering an epidemic of gun violence totally disproportionate to that being suffered anywhere in the world that isn't in the midst of a bloody civil war."

I don't think that's quite right. If Wikipedia is to be believed Russia has a murder rate more than twice that of the US, Brazil has a murder rate more than four times that of the US, and Jamaica has a murder rate that is more than ten time that of the US. I don't think any of those countries is in the midst of a bloody civil war. Granted, murder isn't the same as gun violence, but given the vast disparities I suspect those countries have higher rates of gun violence than the US. Even if only 10% of the murders in Jamaica are committed w/ firearms, that country still has a higher rate of gun violence than the US.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on January 27, 2013 at 1:48 PM · Report this
21
Thanks for making it easier to argue the point:

"we're not really talking about regulating guns, but rather, regulating the people who use guns"
Posted by rickeagle on January 27, 2013 at 1:40 PM · Report this
NaFun 20
On the subject of nightclub safety, I'm hosting a conference right after Memorial Day in San Francisco - clubhealthsf2013.org is the website for it. Dr. Keith Still, expert on crowd safety, is a keynote presenter.
Posted by NaFun http://www.dancesafe.org on January 27, 2013 at 1:33 PM · Report this
19
I love when Goldy finds a great parallel (something that shows high IQ) people get all hissy about how "it's a stretch of a comparison" blah blah blah. It's a great comparison. Keep it up.
Posted by michael bell on January 27, 2013 at 1:28 PM · Report this
Puty 18
Great post and a great point, and the attempts by some commentators to declare Goldy out of bounds are super revealing.
Posted by Puty on January 27, 2013 at 1:28 PM · Report this
17
>The same geniuses who think our current level of gun deaths are acceptable also argued that fire codes are tyranny.

As a liberal, you're fucking nuts bro.
Posted by NancyBalls on January 27, 2013 at 1:26 PM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 16
The same geniuses who think our current level of gun deaths are acceptable also argued that fire codes are tyranny. And you can never do anything about fire deaths. We have proof that is not so.

Or the fact that in 1920 we had 24 traffic deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled, and after 90 years of regulation and well-focused safety engineering, that number dropped to under 1.5 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles. It's a fantastic record of accomplishment. All due to "tyranny".

Interestingly, today in America we are all far freer to be ourselves, to express who we are without fear, than a century ago. All the more so if you're not a straight white male.

This whole rugged individualist approach of clinging to your gun and going nutso bazoo over "government overreach" is backwards. It's on the wrong side of history. And the data says it doesn't work.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on January 27, 2013 at 1:20 PM · Report this
Lew Siffer 15
I woke up late today, I think firearms are responsible.
Posted by Lew Siffer on January 27, 2013 at 1:17 PM · Report this
14
I thought your point was going to be that you can't legislate human nature. You can try to take precautions; facilitate safety...do your best to make safe environments. But in the end, people kill people. They trample each other to death to death.

The ego of the gun user similarly seeks to trample people to death.
Posted by six five on January 27, 2013 at 1:12 PM · Report this
13
Gee Goldy you apparently hit a nerve cuz the trolls are out in force.

And @11 the context is appropriate regulation as in appropriate regulation stops 232 people from dying in a fire and maybe appropriate gun regulation should stop 20 children from dying at kindergarten.
Posted by Madame Chintoa on January 27, 2013 at 1:02 PM · Report this
McBomber 12
This is a stretch, Goldy. It seems as if you're scouring the news looking for any reason to tie in to gun control. You're not adding context, you're shaping a tragedy to fit your particular angle on an unrelated issue. I'm with you in theory, but this post is the kind of thing I'd expect from Bill O'Reilly.
Posted by McBomber on January 27, 2013 at 12:59 PM · Report this
theophrastus 11
"context" is fine. journalism (and to a lesser extent blogging) should focus on context. but which specific context is paramount. there was a horrible fire recently in a Bangladesh sweatshop, as well as other such events of profit versus safety and infra-structural issues elsewhere. that, (in my humble opinion), is the sensible context for this horror. yes yes, guns can be stapled-on as profit versus safety too - but not as a primary topic of comparison because most of the gun push back isn't from the profit angle, it's from the private paranoia side. there's more here to connect to outsourcing lithium ion batteries and than guns. ...nice effort nonetheless.
Posted by theophrastus on January 27, 2013 at 12:15 PM · Report this
10
I second the "well said".
Posted by BlueSparrow on January 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM · Report this
9
So it is a "false equivalence" to compare gun deaths to traffic deaths.
But comparing deaths at a night club fire in Brazil to gun regulation in America is acceptable?

Looks like Goldy is back on the grief porn drive.
Except that now he isn't satisfied with just shooting deaths or just deaths in America.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on January 27, 2013 at 12:07 PM · Report this
Posted by rob! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZBdUceCL5U on January 27, 2013 at 12:02 PM · Report this
Pope Peabrain 7
I have heard they were having some kind of indoor pyrotechnic display. Remember the tragedy we had here, I believe in New England, a few years ago? It was a band called Great White or something. Killed a lot of people.
Posted by Pope Peabrain on January 27, 2013 at 11:54 AM · Report this
Goldy 6
What would you all prefer? Grief porn? Block quotes from news outlets describing weeping relatives and charred remains?

I've got nothing to add to this story but context.
Posted by Goldy on January 27, 2013 at 11:49 AM · Report this
yelahneb 5
Well said, Goldy.
Posted by yelahneb http://www.strangebutharmless.com on January 27, 2013 at 11:47 AM · Report this
Michael of the Green 4
Maybe have a straight story about the tragedy before you begin with the trolling. Don't get me wrong; I'm all for your making this point about gun control, but maybe cover this story first?
Posted by Michael of the Green on January 27, 2013 at 11:40 AM · Report this
theophrastus 3
I really don't think conflating this tragedy with the gun issue serves anyone well.
Posted by theophrastus on January 27, 2013 at 11:38 AM · Report this
2
get help.
Posted by National Mental Health Month on January 27, 2013 at 11:22 AM · Report this
tainte 1
too soon
Posted by tainte on January 27, 2013 at 11:19 AM · Report this

Add a comment

Advertisement
 

Want great deals and a chance to win tickets to the best shows in Seattle? Join The Stranger Presents email list!


All contents © Index Newspapers, LLC
1535 11th Ave (Third Floor), Seattle, WA 98122
Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Takedown Policy