Slog
News & ArtsFriday, January 18, 2013
Guns Josh Marshall Speaks For His Tribe: Non-Gun Owners
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:57 AM
Some required reading over at TPM:
I come from a culture where guns are not so much feared as alien, as I said. I don’t own one. I don’t think many people I know have one. It would scare me to have one in my home for a lot of reasons. Not least of which because I have two wonderful beyond belief little boys and accidents happen and I know that firearms in the home are most likely to kill their owners or their families. People have accidents. They get depressed. They get angry.
In the current rhetorical climate people seem not to want to say: I think guns are kind of scary and don’t want to be around them. Yes, plenty of people have them and use them safely. And I have no problem with that. But remember, handguns especially are designed to kill people. You may want to use it to threaten or deter. You may use it to kill people who should be killed (i.e., in self-defense). But handguns are designed to kill people. They’re not designed to hunt. You may use it to shoot at the range. But they’re designed to kill people quickly and efficiently.
That frightens me. I don’t want to have those in my home. I don’t particularly want to be around people who are carrying. Cops, I don’t mind. They’re trained, under an organized system and supposed to use them for a specific purpose. But do I want to have people carrying firearms out and about where I live my life—at the store, the restaurant, at my kid’s playground? No, the whole idea is alien and frankly scary. Because remember, guns are extremely efficient tools for killing people and people get weird and do stupid things.
It's an important piece and persuasive piece and Marshall is naturally catching hell for it from the gunutz. Go read the whole thing.
1
A woman's photographs of a man carrying a rifle with him in a store have gone viral. The 22-year-old rifle carrier says he wanted to make his point that rifles in the arms of lawful citizens are safe. So that makes the man at Lowe's who shot himself in the leg, the 12-year-old who shot his trampolining cousin, the man whose gun discharged a bullet into his wife's leg at dinner, all lawless nogooders, according to the 22-year-old's logic.
2
Last Easter I was with a few families next to a playground at Greenlake, the place was packed with kids, and a few large men with handguns sticking out of their pants come by and hang out. Apparently it was some organized effort to prove a point, and it did its job - families started leaving left and right.
Thanks gun nuts. I feel much safer now.
Thanks gun nuts. I feel much safer now.
3
Shhh! Didn't you hear? "You're just scared of guns" is some kind of winning argument from gun owners now. You can't admit it! That means you lose!
5
There's a damn good reason State law forbids bringing weapons into bars. Drunk people are stupid people, and stupid people make stupid mistakes. Alcohol lowers your inhibitions and makes you more likely to believe you need to pull your handgun out to "defend yourself" from some other belligerent drunk.
And the 'Yay, guns!' crowd fights to overturn that law. Some other states already have.
I would certainly feel less safe in a bar knowing that some dipshit in there believed he needed to be armed to be safe.
And the 'Yay, guns!' crowd fights to overturn that law. Some other states already have.
I would certainly feel less safe in a bar knowing that some dipshit in there believed he needed to be armed to be safe.
6
OHHH guwns scawery.
If you do not like them you do not have to own them.
Also most police qualification consist of getting 70 percent of 50 rounds on target once or twice a year. Most concealed carrying civilians practice far more than the police and are far more proficient with firearms.
Another progressive trying to convince people that his feeling outweigh the bill of rights.
Let me tell you a story Danny. A few years back I was walking home on Olive Way late at night, a BMW full of frat types circled the block a few times yelling "Hey Faggot!" Me being me, I mouthed off right back to them causing 4 drunk to get out of the car and start walking towards me flinging various insults and threats. I pulled the hand gun I carried at the time, a cute little Russian Makarov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makarov_pis…. I didn't yet point it at anyone, but I said something along the lines of "You picked the wrong fag tonight." They stopped in their tracks. The leader started jumping backwards and slapping his chest, "You gonna shoot me bitch!" I said, "I would rather not, it would be better if everyone went home alive tonight." They returned to their car with their tails between their legs, I don't think they will be returning to gay bash on the hill any time soon. As I returned home I noticed that there had been a cop parked less than a block away, he was busy doing paperwork and had not even noticed the exchange.
If you do not like them you do not have to own them.
Also most police qualification consist of getting 70 percent of 50 rounds on target once or twice a year. Most concealed carrying civilians practice far more than the police and are far more proficient with firearms.
Another progressive trying to convince people that his feeling outweigh the bill of rights.
Let me tell you a story Danny. A few years back I was walking home on Olive Way late at night, a BMW full of frat types circled the block a few times yelling "Hey Faggot!" Me being me, I mouthed off right back to them causing 4 drunk to get out of the car and start walking towards me flinging various insults and threats. I pulled the hand gun I carried at the time, a cute little Russian Makarov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makarov_pis…. I didn't yet point it at anyone, but I said something along the lines of "You picked the wrong fag tonight." They stopped in their tracks. The leader started jumping backwards and slapping his chest, "You gonna shoot me bitch!" I said, "I would rather not, it would be better if everyone went home alive tonight." They returned to their car with their tails between their legs, I don't think they will be returning to gay bash on the hill any time soon. As I returned home I noticed that there had been a cop parked less than a block away, he was busy doing paperwork and had not even noticed the exchange.
7
@4, horrific. When I read things like that I can't help but feel what it must have been like to have done them. Sick-making.
Which Slog commenter does this remind you of?
Which Slog commenter does this remind you of?
His new milita-member duty is mocking people who call a “magazine” a “clip” and informing them that if they can’t name all the parts of weapon correctly, they have no business having opinions about it.
8
is there any definitive evidence that preventing law abiding gun owners from carrying concealed weapons is detrimental to public safety? It would seem to me that the old saw about "when you outlaw guns, only outlaws carry guns" would apply in that case.
9
Iceland: Plenty Of Guns, But Hardly Any Violence
According to reports, some 90,000 Icelanders -- almost one-third of the country’s population -- own guns. On a per capita basis, Iceland ranks 15th on the global list of gun ownership rates.
But violent crime is virtually nonexistent in this land of Viking descendants and geysers. In 2009, only four gun-related deaths were recorded, including one suicide and one accidental shooting.
http://www.ibtimes.com/iceland-plenty-gu…
10
@9 you're conflating hunting rifles with a few rounds with military assault rifles and high-capacity rounds.
Real hunters don't need more than 5 bullets. If you do, you shouldn't be hunting unsupervised, period.
(caveat - I learned to hunt at 7 - people came later)
Real hunters don't need more than 5 bullets. If you do, you shouldn't be hunting unsupervised, period.
(caveat - I learned to hunt at 7 - people came later)
11
I am offended by two men kissing and holding hands, its against nature and honestly scare me. I don't like gay men, I don't know any gay men. It all goes back to a horrific experience in my youth. My rights to live in a world not constantly assailed by open gayness are being violated.
The laws banning homosexuality should be reinstated.
The laws banning homosexuality should be reinstated.
12
@9
Bad example.
Having been to Iceland, terrible place by the way unless you want to live in a total nanny state where you have to go to the pharmacy for aspirin and can't buy beer over 2 percent, shots are a government mandated 25ml that has to be poured into a special government shot glass before you can drink it. And the people there are all rude, especially if you are American, one guy threatened to "slap me for being American" but quickly backed down when I challenged him to do it.
Iceland has a ban on handguns and semi automatics most of it's guns are shotguns an d out in the sticks as 2/3 of the islands residents live in 1 city. Culturally the island is absolutely homogenous to the point where everyone knows each other or is related to each other, they even look like each other, like blond sexless dolls. A homogenous society in and of itself does a lot to reduce violence, but is boring as fuck.
Iceland does have a super high suicide rate, (I don't blame them, it is a shitty place to live) it also has a big alcohol problem which is why liquor is so tightly regulated to the point where people fly simply to go to the duty free store.
Bad example.
Having been to Iceland, terrible place by the way unless you want to live in a total nanny state where you have to go to the pharmacy for aspirin and can't buy beer over 2 percent, shots are a government mandated 25ml that has to be poured into a special government shot glass before you can drink it. And the people there are all rude, especially if you are American, one guy threatened to "slap me for being American" but quickly backed down when I challenged him to do it.
Iceland has a ban on handguns and semi automatics most of it's guns are shotguns an d out in the sticks as 2/3 of the islands residents live in 1 city. Culturally the island is absolutely homogenous to the point where everyone knows each other or is related to each other, they even look like each other, like blond sexless dolls. A homogenous society in and of itself does a lot to reduce violence, but is boring as fuck.
Iceland does have a super high suicide rate, (I don't blame them, it is a shitty place to live) it also has a big alcohol problem which is why liquor is so tightly regulated to the point where people fly simply to go to the duty free store.
13
@6
So you carry around a loaded weapon for the purpose of having the balls to mouth off to people? It almost sounds like you were looking for a reason to pull your gun out so you could feel like a badass. That to many makes you an irresponsible gun owner.
This is why guns are scary to people, things can escalate rather quickly especially with people with short tempers. What if one or two of those mouthy frat boys had guns themselves and pulled them out on you after you pulled yours out?
So you carry around a loaded weapon for the purpose of having the balls to mouth off to people? It almost sounds like you were looking for a reason to pull your gun out so you could feel like a badass. That to many makes you an irresponsible gun owner.
This is why guns are scary to people, things can escalate rather quickly especially with people with short tempers. What if one or two of those mouthy frat boys had guns themselves and pulled them out on you after you pulled yours out?
14
You *think* they're well-trained, and that's enough to make you feel safe. But then stuff happens like cops accidentally shooting 9 civilians in NYC, and it makes rational people think twice about the quality of training that officers receive.
I don’t particularly want to be around people who are carrying. Cops, I don’t mind. They’re trained, under an organized system and supposed to use them for a specific purpose
You *think* they're well-trained, and that's enough to make you feel safe. But then stuff happens like cops accidentally shooting 9 civilians in NYC, and it makes rational people think twice about the quality of training that officers receive.
15
If I ever see some Dirty Harry wannabe clown parading around town with a gun I'll definately call the police and report him/her. I'll let law enforcement sort out their legal standing vis a vis carrying a weapon in public. The only thing that bringing a gun to a park proves is that person is an ASSHOLE, an irresponsible, stupid asshole at that. Republicans have filled the Supreme Court with a bunch of right wing idiots.Their ruling on the second amendment may be ideologically correct, but is constitutionally wrong.
Hey gun lovers, keep your guns at home, where you and your family can shoot yourselfs out of the gene pool.
Hey gun lovers, keep your guns at home, where you and your family can shoot yourselfs out of the gene pool.
16
@9 Iceland has a very small homogeneous population with veery low povery rates. The guns that peope own a re hunting rifles, not pistols, or military-style or assualt rifles.They also have a lower over-all violent crime rate.
@6 That "I showed them by packing heat" kind of anecdote is beloved of gun advocates but always has the hallmarks of conflation at best and urban legend most other times. It is a simple fact that people who live in houses which have guns in them are more likely to be injured or die from a gunshot wound than people who do not. It also effects neighbors. Kids who play with kids whose parents have guns get shot more than kids who do not. Some people keep guns because they believe thay will come in handy for some imagined future threat, others do not keep them in order to avoid a present and pervasive danger
@6 That "I showed them by packing heat" kind of anecdote is beloved of gun advocates but always has the hallmarks of conflation at best and urban legend most other times. It is a simple fact that people who live in houses which have guns in them are more likely to be injured or die from a gunshot wound than people who do not. It also effects neighbors. Kids who play with kids whose parents have guns get shot more than kids who do not. Some people keep guns because they believe thay will come in handy for some imagined future threat, others do not keep them in order to avoid a present and pervasive danger
18
@10
Can you show me where it says "hunting" in the second amendment. Besides I rarely hunt, I did do a lot of varminting growing up. Most of my shooting is done in the practical rifle venue, which is the fastest growing shooting sport in the country and requires a semi automatic rifle with standard (20-30 round) capacity magazines.
@14
Correct, though it bothers me that the press keeps adding that one to the list of mass shootings when they gunman only shot his intended target, the police shot everyone else.
Can you show me where it says "hunting" in the second amendment. Besides I rarely hunt, I did do a lot of varminting growing up. Most of my shooting is done in the practical rifle venue, which is the fastest growing shooting sport in the country and requires a semi automatic rifle with standard (20-30 round) capacity magazines.
@14
Correct, though it bothers me that the press keeps adding that one to the list of mass shootings when they gunman only shot his intended target, the police shot everyone else.
19
I've never even seen a real gun. I've only ever met two people who owned them: one got one when she was living in America after she was randomly attacked on the street, and the other was a farmer. Neither of them had owned guns for more than 20 years by the time I met them. Guns and gun violence are very rare everywhere I've ever lived. We assume, and are more likely than not to be correct in our assumption, that none of our neighbours or people on the streets own them or are carrying them. In two of the places I've lived even the police don't carry them. So, like many non-Americans, I can't relate to the whole "right to bear arms" mentality, or to a culture where people like guns and want to own them and carry them around.
20
@everyone loving their guns:
The points that Josh made, if you actually read the linked articles, especially @4's, is this:
1. Handguns and assault rifles are tools designed to kill people as quickly and efficiently as possible.
2. Given that handguns and assault rifles are tools designed to kill people as quickly and efficiently as possible., there is no reason to take them into a public place such as a supermarket--people are not in a supermarket in order to be shot at.
3. Given that handguns and assault rifles are tools designed to kill people as quickly and efficiently as possible, it is very easy to accidentally use one to kill people.
4. Given that handguns and assault rifles are tools designed to kill people as quickly and efficiently as possible, and given that human nature is fallible: people may be drunk, people may be angry, people may be depressed, people may not be paying attention to what they are doing, people may be children, then if someone owns a gun, and they are in one of the above less-than-responsible conditions, they are much more likely to kill someone than a person who is in one of those conditions, but does not own a gun.
The points that Josh made, if you actually read the linked articles, especially @4's, is this:
1. Handguns and assault rifles are tools designed to kill people as quickly and efficiently as possible.
2. Given that handguns and assault rifles are tools designed to kill people as quickly and efficiently as possible., there is no reason to take them into a public place such as a supermarket--people are not in a supermarket in order to be shot at.
3. Given that handguns and assault rifles are tools designed to kill people as quickly and efficiently as possible, it is very easy to accidentally use one to kill people.
4. Given that handguns and assault rifles are tools designed to kill people as quickly and efficiently as possible, and given that human nature is fallible: people may be drunk, people may be angry, people may be depressed, people may not be paying attention to what they are doing, people may be children, then if someone owns a gun, and they are in one of the above less-than-responsible conditions, they are much more likely to kill someone than a person who is in one of those conditions, but does not own a gun.
21
I don't own a gun and I have only ever known two people who were proudly "Gun Owners". I may know other people who own guns but are so quiet about it that I don't know one way or the other. Anyhow, one of my Gun Owner friends was a really really nice guy, but also an alcoholic and a little off balance. He shot himself in the head one night after he had been out drinking. He did this in front of his roommate and best friend. The other Gun Owner I know is a good friend of my family. One night his adult son used his gun to shoot himself in the head. He did this in front of his dad, the Gun Owner. No one can say that these two young men would be alive today if they didn't have guns at easy reach, they might have found other ways to commit suicide if they were so determined. But in both cases it seemed like a spur of the moment sort of thing. But this is really my only personal experience with guns. I can't even imagine what kind of horrific nightmares the people who were witness to these events have to deal with now for the rest of their lives. But for me, yeah, guns scare me.
22
@12 - Having also been to Iceland, I can state that it is full of friendly, intelligent, happy people. If you had someone there threaten to "slap you for being an American", I can only imagine that they recognized you to be the asshole that you are.
23
Funny how the First Amendment doesn't extend to spreading terror and fear. "Community standards" apply to obscenity, nudity, gross out horror, you name it. There are hundreds of well-justified limitations on the First Amendment.
But spreading terror and fear with guns? Violating community standards with your rigid, extremist interpretation of the Second Amendment? Then everybody else has to "just deal with it."
I should be a gun person. It's in my DNA. It's how I was raised. Although none of the gun people who raised me treated guns like toys, or geeky techo-gadgetry to impress their friends. Goofing around or showboating with a gun was never tolerated. That's the kind of gun culture expressed by Ronald Reagan, or George H.W. Bush. Or even the traditional NRA.
These "open carry" dorks aren't even the "Real America" if there ever was such a thing. They're a new breed. Some kind of wigged out kook cult that rose in the 1970s, probably from baby boomers taking too many drugs and getting even higher on their over-boosted self-esteem.
The traditional American gun culture of the Founding Fathers, before the Me Decade, would never push guns up in the faces of people who didn't invite them.
But spreading terror and fear with guns? Violating community standards with your rigid, extremist interpretation of the Second Amendment? Then everybody else has to "just deal with it."
I should be a gun person. It's in my DNA. It's how I was raised. Although none of the gun people who raised me treated guns like toys, or geeky techo-gadgetry to impress their friends. Goofing around or showboating with a gun was never tolerated. That's the kind of gun culture expressed by Ronald Reagan, or George H.W. Bush. Or even the traditional NRA.
These "open carry" dorks aren't even the "Real America" if there ever was such a thing. They're a new breed. Some kind of wigged out kook cult that rose in the 1970s, probably from baby boomers taking too many drugs and getting even higher on their over-boosted self-esteem.
The traditional American gun culture of the Founding Fathers, before the Me Decade, would never push guns up in the faces of people who didn't invite them.
24
@13
Yes I should have remained a cowering little faggot waiting to get the shit beat out of me by 4 drunks and sent to harborview or killed, that would have kept me on the moral high ground rather then being a evil gun owner with the nerve to stick up for himself.
@16
The simple fact that I lived is enough. I was one of the estimated 2 MILLION incidences a year where a gun is used to prevent a crime with no shots being fired. These incidents tend to not generated news ore even a police report. And parents with kids NEED to keep their shit locked up, I don't even have kids and I keep my guns securely stored.
Yes I should have remained a cowering little faggot waiting to get the shit beat out of me by 4 drunks and sent to harborview or killed, that would have kept me on the moral high ground rather then being a evil gun owner with the nerve to stick up for himself.
@16
The simple fact that I lived is enough. I was one of the estimated 2 MILLION incidences a year where a gun is used to prevent a crime with no shots being fired. These incidents tend to not generated news ore even a police report. And parents with kids NEED to keep their shit locked up, I don't even have kids and I keep my guns securely stored.
25
@6 You could have avoided the situation entirely if you had decided to be the bigger man and not respond to the stupid frat boy taunts.
But instead you chose to be the smaller man, the petty and insecure man who has to puff out his chest whenever some meathead heckles you. And so YOU escalated the situation to the point where you had to flash your gun for your own safety.
Lemme tell you a little story: I had some guy follow me off the bus and call me a faggot yesterday evening. I kept walking and nothing happened. The end.
But instead you chose to be the smaller man, the petty and insecure man who has to puff out his chest whenever some meathead heckles you. And so YOU escalated the situation to the point where you had to flash your gun for your own safety.
Lemme tell you a little story: I had some guy follow me off the bus and call me a faggot yesterday evening. I kept walking and nothing happened. The end.
26
@6 If your gun is giving you the courage to escalate a situation you would (presumably?) otherwise be smart enough to just walk away from, you're part of the reason people worry about guns in public spaces.
I worry more about getting caught in the crossfire of a dick-swinging contest gone wrong than being someone's intended target.
I worry more about getting caught in the crossfire of a dick-swinging contest gone wrong than being someone's intended target.
27
@22
Well as you are the one flinging insults, I bet they liked you because you were a cowardly shit talker who brings nothing to the table, just like them.
Also Icelanders appear to be friendly and smiling when you stick to the tourist track. Some were genuinely nice friendly people, a few people that we hung out with kept asking< "why did you come here, it is a terrible place" and kept talking how they really wanted to go to America.
Well as you are the one flinging insults, I bet they liked you because you were a cowardly shit talker who brings nothing to the table, just like them.
Also Icelanders appear to be friendly and smiling when you stick to the tourist track. Some were genuinely nice friendly people, a few people that we hung out with kept asking< "why did you come here, it is a terrible place" and kept talking how they really wanted to go to America.
28
@25
Nothing happened? That means you prevented a crime. It was one of the estimated 200 BILLION incidences a year where NOT pulling a gun is used to prevent a crime.
If the gun nuts can use their Walter Mitty fantasies to inflate these bullshit statistics claiming they prevent crimes every day, imagine the kinds of numbers we could gin up by counting every time a person de-escalated a conflict by doing jack-all doodly squat nada zilch nothing. The choice to do nothing in response to provocation is in fact the reason civilization functions at all.
It helps if you're not insecure about your penis.
Nothing happened? That means you prevented a crime. It was one of the estimated 200 BILLION incidences a year where NOT pulling a gun is used to prevent a crime.
If the gun nuts can use their Walter Mitty fantasies to inflate these bullshit statistics claiming they prevent crimes every day, imagine the kinds of numbers we could gin up by counting every time a person de-escalated a conflict by doing jack-all doodly squat nada zilch nothing. The choice to do nothing in response to provocation is in fact the reason civilization functions at all.
It helps if you're not insecure about your penis.
29
Really? Because I keep hearing people say that. In fact, I've been hearing way more of that than anything else.
In the current rhetorical climate people seem not to want to say: I think guns are kind of scary and don’t want to be around them.
Really? Because I keep hearing people say that. In fact, I've been hearing way more of that than anything else.
31
@25/26
That was very early in my gun carrying days. I always had a fair amount of courage armed or not, being armed makes me less likely to fight. I have been carrying for the last 7 years and if anything it makes me far more likely to diffuse a situation rather than escalate. In the situation I related to you, I did ignore it at first, and I would have been attacked if I talked back or not. However the firearms allowed the situation to be resolved non violently. Where there was the potential for great violence everyone went home with nothing injured but their pride.
I also do take some issue with allowing people to denigrate you, this sort of behavior just allows them to escalate and bully others. By not stepping up to stop harassment you are encouraging it.
That was very early in my gun carrying days. I always had a fair amount of courage armed or not, being armed makes me less likely to fight. I have been carrying for the last 7 years and if anything it makes me far more likely to diffuse a situation rather than escalate. In the situation I related to you, I did ignore it at first, and I would have been attacked if I talked back or not. However the firearms allowed the situation to be resolved non violently. Where there was the potential for great violence everyone went home with nothing injured but their pride.
I also do take some issue with allowing people to denigrate you, this sort of behavior just allows them to escalate and bully others. By not stepping up to stop harassment you are encouraging it.
32
@18: Show me where it says ICBM anywhere in the Bill of Rights.
See how easy that is? It doesn't make your argument any more valid (or less childish) than mine.
See how easy that is? It doesn't make your argument any more valid (or less childish) than mine.
34
@31 Really? Why don't you go and do some homework: Go to www.google.com and type in "ignoring vs. punishment". You will find that ignoring bad behavior is far more effective in stopping it, than punishing it.
35
@33
Well I am Jewish.
But I have only pulled a gun one night, once in my life ever out of the 2000+ days I have carried one on my person and 5000+ days I have owned a firearm. I never even pointed one at any one, ever.
Well I am Jewish.
But I have only pulled a gun one night, once in my life ever out of the 2000+ days I have carried one on my person and 5000+ days I have owned a firearm. I never even pointed one at any one, ever.
36
I can't IMAGINE why an Icelander wanted to slap Cascadian Bacon after hearing him speak. There must be something magical about your personality that makes you the target of so much abuse across the globe. I'll bet it's related to the magic personality traits that have you waving your gun around in public, threatening to shoot drunk people. Were you drunk too? This story makes you seem so CHARMING.
37
@34
Aww the Slog, where gay bashing is ok but dun owning is evil.
I am going to guess that based on the nature of my employment, former corrections working in psych, current healthcare with the emphasis of my training and skill set in crisis resolution, I may be just a little more versed on the subject than you.
Aww the Slog, where gay bashing is ok but dun owning is evil.
I am going to guess that based on the nature of my employment, former corrections working in psych, current healthcare with the emphasis of my training and skill set in crisis resolution, I may be just a little more versed on the subject than you.
38
@24, As someone who was in the almost identical situation (although I'm not gay so maybe the taunts were less effective) a quick call to 911 had the cops there in a minute who weren't too happy with the drunken dudes. They got cuffed, booked for drunk and disorderly since I didn't feel like pressing my own charges and I believe one of them got popped on an existing warrant. No gun needed.
39
@31
It worked out nonviolently. But what if the frat boys had been armed themselves? Then your decision to pull your weapon could have turned the situation violent and even deadly, and even for potential bystanders. Even if you were a "responsible gun owner" and had no intention firing the weapon, you can't control the actions of others or an irresponsible gun owner that you might pull the gun out on. I don't see the need to go back in time to the wild west.
It worked out nonviolently. But what if the frat boys had been armed themselves? Then your decision to pull your weapon could have turned the situation violent and even deadly, and even for potential bystanders. Even if you were a "responsible gun owner" and had no intention firing the weapon, you can't control the actions of others or an irresponsible gun owner that you might pull the gun out on. I don't see the need to go back in time to the wild west.
40
Speaking of the open carry nuts, a few years ago, some UW students were advocating for open carry on campus. They weren't very bright. I think their first announcement identified themselves as a vigilante group, which they quickly backpedaled from. Then I heard one of them interviewed on KUOW, and he said he had been mugged something like three or four times in the last year. Now, I don't want to get into the victim blaming biz here, but you don't get mugged or attacked repeatedly unless you're going out of your way, which sounds like what Cascadian Bacon is doing in his story. (Does anyone really believe he lives Cap Hill, though? Or Seattle, for that matter?)
41
@36
No I was not drunk, I was returning from a movie downtown and actually going home to drop off my gun so I could go to the bar. Also the Icelander started shit based on my American accent. But my apologies for not having as many internet friends as you Fnarf oh great king of assburgers.
No I was not drunk, I was returning from a movie downtown and actually going home to drop off my gun so I could go to the bar. Also the Icelander started shit based on my American accent. But my apologies for not having as many internet friends as you Fnarf oh great king of assburgers.
42
Meh, I dunno Cascadian Bacon. By your own account of the story, it sounds like you escalated the situation and you were damn lucky that none of those guys was also carrying a gun.
43
@6 I wonder how the law would view how CB claims to have acted during this hypothetical incident. He escalated the conflict by yelling back when he was taunted and didn't run away when he was threatened. In some states, if the gaggle of drunks had tried to rush him and he'd shot and killed one of them, he'd be guilty of manslaughter. In any case I don't like the way he says he acted. A gun should be used to protect your life and sometimes your poperty, but not your dignity.
44
@39
We can argue "what if" till the cows come home, what if the cops didn't show up on time (they usually don't) when 38 called them and he got beat to death.
We can argue "what if" till the cows come home, what if the cops didn't show up on time (they usually don't) when 38 called them and he got beat to death.
45
@6 That is a fascinating story. @40 Way to blame the victim. It might just be a dangerous neighborhood. The person might work a job where he has to make his way home at three in the morning.
I have a non-rhetorical question for the floor: If the value of a handgun is to scare people rather than to shoot people, wouldn't it work just as well if loaded with blanks or rubber bullets? I would actually like an answer if anyone knows enough about guns to say.
I have a non-rhetorical question for the floor: If the value of a handgun is to scare people rather than to shoot people, wouldn't it work just as well if loaded with blanks or rubber bullets? I would actually like an answer if anyone knows enough about guns to say.
46
Meanwhile, in Michigan charter schools:
‘Firearms instructor’ hired as school gu…
Cascadian Bacon, claiming to work in "the system," sees a police officer immediately after the alleged incident, but makes no mention of reporting it, something that could possibly have gotten the persons who threatened him detained or arrested, but would at the very least have gone into the statistics that are used to determine what kind of policing the community needs.
‘Firearms instructor’ hired as school gu…
Cascadian Bacon, claiming to work in "the system," sees a police officer immediately after the alleged incident, but makes no mention of reporting it, something that could possibly have gotten the persons who threatened him detained or arrested, but would at the very least have gone into the statistics that are used to determine what kind of policing the community needs.
47
@ 37, I guess since the false equivalence of comparing auto fatalities to gun fatalities has finally become well known enough to prevent you from trotting it out, it's time to bring out the false equivalence of inherent traits to personal choice?
48
@43
You have a point, and it was that incident that changed a lot about how I think about life, concealed carrying, gun rights etc. I may not have acted perfect, in these situations things happen fast. Today being much older and wiser I may have acted differently, but like I said before they were coming for me and it really didn't matter if I spoke back to them or not. Also Wa has pretty good stand your ground laws.
I came of age in a city far from Seattle with a much higher rate of violence, where these kinds of things happened all the time and no one really cared. This in CA where you were not allowed to carry. Virtually everyone I knew down there had been jumped at one point or another. I worked in a trauma center and saw the result of a lot of violence first hand. Often it finds you no matter how much you try avoid it.
The point is I thank my gun for going home in one piece,
You have a point, and it was that incident that changed a lot about how I think about life, concealed carrying, gun rights etc. I may not have acted perfect, in these situations things happen fast. Today being much older and wiser I may have acted differently, but like I said before they were coming for me and it really didn't matter if I spoke back to them or not. Also Wa has pretty good stand your ground laws.
I came of age in a city far from Seattle with a much higher rate of violence, where these kinds of things happened all the time and no one really cared. This in CA where you were not allowed to carry. Virtually everyone I knew down there had been jumped at one point or another. I worked in a trauma center and saw the result of a lot of violence first hand. Often it finds you no matter how much you try avoid it.
The point is I thank my gun for going home in one piece,
49
@Cascadian Bacon
First, you refer to the entire population of Iceland as rude, boring, sexless, homogenous, alcoholic, inbred dolls living under a nanny state. Then you get pissy when sperifera speculates that you that you probably came off as an asshole to the locals*, and call sperifera a worthless, cowardly shit-talker, and add those titles to the entire population of Iceland? I really doubt your presence here is elaborate trolling (I don't think you have the skill for it), but I wouldn't fault someone for thinking it is. To me, you're a fantastic example to validate any and every stereotype that I or society as a whole uses for a gun nut. Every time you participate in a discussion - especially on this topic - you only reinforce the notion.
*In an anecdote that I know we can all be assured omits no important details. Some random guy wanted to slap you solely for being an American. That's it.
First, you refer to the entire population of Iceland as rude, boring, sexless, homogenous, alcoholic, inbred dolls living under a nanny state. Then you get pissy when sperifera speculates that you that you probably came off as an asshole to the locals*, and call sperifera a worthless, cowardly shit-talker, and add those titles to the entire population of Iceland? I really doubt your presence here is elaborate trolling (I don't think you have the skill for it), but I wouldn't fault someone for thinking it is. To me, you're a fantastic example to validate any and every stereotype that I or society as a whole uses for a gun nut. Every time you participate in a discussion - especially on this topic - you only reinforce the notion.
*In an anecdote that I know we can all be assured omits no important details. Some random guy wanted to slap you solely for being an American. That's it.
50
@34 Well, I did plug "ignore vs. punishment" into Google, and here's what I got:
"In general your friend is right - actions designed solely to get attention should be ignored. By responding you only reinforce the behavior." Bold mine.
1. The person is a parent asking the expert whether or not to ignore a child's tantrums. 2. The answer applies only to behavior meant to get attention.
Those frat boys weren't acting out to an authority figure. They were targeting someone whom they believed to be weaker than themselves. They weren't acting out to get attention. They wanted a recipient of their aggression.
If this were, say, a classroom situation, then it would be addressing the question of whether the teacher should ignore bad behavior, but Cascadian's situation would be more analogous to whether a classmate should ignore bullying.
If you've got better sources, maybe some articles that deal with adults or at least arguable equals of any age, that might be a different matter.
"In general your friend is right - actions designed solely to get attention should be ignored. By responding you only reinforce the behavior." Bold mine.
1. The person is a parent asking the expert whether or not to ignore a child's tantrums. 2. The answer applies only to behavior meant to get attention.
Those frat boys weren't acting out to an authority figure. They were targeting someone whom they believed to be weaker than themselves. They weren't acting out to get attention. They wanted a recipient of their aggression.
If this were, say, a classroom situation, then it would be addressing the question of whether the teacher should ignore bad behavior, but Cascadian's situation would be more analogous to whether a classmate should ignore bullying.
If you've got better sources, maybe some articles that deal with adults or at least arguable equals of any age, that might be a different matter.
51
I was walking with a friend on Broadway one night and four frat boy types stopped in a car, one got out and yelled "are you a fag?" at my friend. I said, "Dude, watch it, this is a gay neighborhood full of gay guys who go to the gym all day, who don't take kindly to gay bashing." They laughed sheepishly and drove away. I guess pulling a gun should have been my first move.
52
@23: "The traditional American gun culture of the Founding Fathers, before the Me Decade, would never push guns up in the faces of people who didn't invite them."
Totally agree and had the same experience in upbringing - the last thing you do is make people uncomfortable or scared around guns, that really is nuts.
Whenever I see these yahoos walking around like ninjas with their stupid hardware on display I tell them that they're scaring people and to put the shit away.
I find that having a gun anywhere nearby makes me far more averse to confrontation than I ever would be otherwise (which is already a lot). Anyone who's been through defensive training classes and learned about the legal and liability risks involved with even *hitting* someone, let alone brandishing a firearm, would probably do the same...
http://samharris.org/blog/item/the-truth…
Totally agree and had the same experience in upbringing - the last thing you do is make people uncomfortable or scared around guns, that really is nuts.
Whenever I see these yahoos walking around like ninjas with their stupid hardware on display I tell them that they're scaring people and to put the shit away.
I find that having a gun anywhere nearby makes me far more averse to confrontation than I ever would be otherwise (which is already a lot). Anyone who's been through defensive training classes and learned about the legal and liability risks involved with even *hitting* someone, let alone brandishing a firearm, would probably do the same...
http://samharris.org/blog/item/the-truth…
53
@45
Thank you.
I will say that using a unloaded gun is a terrible idea if someone calls your bluff, that said most reasonable people, even when drunk see a gun as the universal symbol to back the fuck off. Almost all defensive firearm incidents end with out shots fired (thankfully).
@46
Report what?
Verbal threats that left no evidence from 4 normal looking white dudes who I don't know in a pretty normal car license plate unknown heading in an unknown direction the departed several minutes ago.
Yea they just might call some extra detectives to work on the case.
Thank you.
I will say that using a unloaded gun is a terrible idea if someone calls your bluff, that said most reasonable people, even when drunk see a gun as the universal symbol to back the fuck off. Almost all defensive firearm incidents end with out shots fired (thankfully).
@46
Report what?
Verbal threats that left no evidence from 4 normal looking white dudes who I don't know in a pretty normal car license plate unknown heading in an unknown direction the departed several minutes ago.
Yea they just might call some extra detectives to work on the case.
54
@44
But the scenario we're talking about is you with your gun, and you pulled it out before you absolutely needed to for self defense while not trying to find alternative approaches to diffuse the situation and actually escalating the situation. This means you handled the situation poorly (even if it ended well) which makes the case for fewer people carrying guns, because in the heat of the moment most people (especially those with guns) are going to be fucking morons.
But the scenario we're talking about is you with your gun, and you pulled it out before you absolutely needed to for self defense while not trying to find alternative approaches to diffuse the situation and actually escalating the situation. This means you handled the situation poorly (even if it ended well) which makes the case for fewer people carrying guns, because in the heat of the moment most people (especially those with guns) are going to be fucking morons.
55
@52
I am also not a big fan of the open carry thing, I respect it as a right, and personally I only do it when I drive to the range. Overall I feel that open carry puts one at a tactical disadvantage because it shows that you are armed.
Also how come it seems like every open carry activist goes and buys they absolute cheapest nylon universal fit holster they can find with no real retention?
I am also not a big fan of the open carry thing, I respect it as a right, and personally I only do it when I drive to the range. Overall I feel that open carry puts one at a tactical disadvantage because it shows that you are armed.
Also how come it seems like every open carry activist goes and buys they absolute cheapest nylon universal fit holster they can find with no real retention?
56
@54
Challenge:
Deescalate 4 drunks bent on kicking your ass for being a faggot, they also have a vehicle. It is after midnight, not many people on the streets and you are on foot and over half a mile from home
Challenge:
Deescalate 4 drunks bent on kicking your ass for being a faggot, they also have a vehicle. It is after midnight, not many people on the streets and you are on foot and over half a mile from home
57
@54
I pulled after they began quickly approaching making threats, while I was still at a safe distance. Before I pulled I had already said warned that they should get back in the car and that they didn't want to do that. If I run I am at a disadvantage, my back is to them and if i am caught I am fucked. Plus they have a car, the option is to stand your ground, state that you will defend yourself and hope for the best.
I pulled after they began quickly approaching making threats, while I was still at a safe distance. Before I pulled I had already said warned that they should get back in the car and that they didn't want to do that. If I run I am at a disadvantage, my back is to them and if i am caught I am fucked. Plus they have a car, the option is to stand your ground, state that you will defend yourself and hope for the best.
58
@45: The value of a handgun is not to scare people, its value is in being an absolute last resort when your life or the life of your family or loved ones is truly threatened and you have absolutely no other option. The preferred option is to run as far away as you can as quickly as you can, if you can't avoid dangerous situations in the first place.
Brandishing a real or fake gun at any time is a fantastic way to get shot, beaten to a pulp (or death), or incarcerated.
Brandishing a real or fake gun at any time is a fantastic way to get shot, beaten to a pulp (or death), or incarcerated.
59
You know, CB, you sound like you're probably a good guy most of the time, and the fear and pain that emanates from your posts is palpable. I'm just sorry that at some point you decided to take a gun approach to personal safety. I feel like you could have turned out differently without it. I really believe that owning guns changes a person and makes them think differently about how society works and their place in it.
Obviously I hate your gun. But when all the yelling is done, mostly I just hope you never end up depending on it in the way you are so fearful of, not because of what it would do to the Bad Guy but because of what it is doing to you. I really feel that. Stay safe. And find peace in your heart.
King of Assburgers is awesome, I thank you for that. I'm going to get a button made.
Obviously I hate your gun. But when all the yelling is done, mostly I just hope you never end up depending on it in the way you are so fearful of, not because of what it would do to the Bad Guy but because of what it is doing to you. I really feel that. Stay safe. And find peace in your heart.
King of Assburgers is awesome, I thank you for that. I'm going to get a button made.
60
@53
Police vehicles frequently come equipped with communications gear. Departing vehicles are not required to floor it in a straight line away from where they're fleeing. You claimed earlier that you saw what kind of vehicle they were in, and if this really happened, you might even have been able to describe the color of the BMW. Would it be a high-priority case? Who knows, and for how long? You didn't know what the hell else was going on or what the hell else might happen that night. Maybe they'd been harassing people all night in the neighborhood. Maybe being pulled over five blocks away and getting questioned for a few minutes might have changed their behavior. Maybe they went and beat someone else up afterward, because there was no other police on the lookout for them. All because you were so happy about the size of your dick.
Police vehicles frequently come equipped with communications gear. Departing vehicles are not required to floor it in a straight line away from where they're fleeing. You claimed earlier that you saw what kind of vehicle they were in, and if this really happened, you might even have been able to describe the color of the BMW. Would it be a high-priority case? Who knows, and for how long? You didn't know what the hell else was going on or what the hell else might happen that night. Maybe they'd been harassing people all night in the neighborhood. Maybe being pulled over five blocks away and getting questioned for a few minutes might have changed their behavior. Maybe they went and beat someone else up afterward, because there was no other police on the lookout for them. All because you were so happy about the size of your dick.
61
So, is "I don't want to have to be around people like that" now a valid argument? Given that we're talking about something constitutionally and legally protected, why is that OK, but "I don't feel comfortable around homosexuals and shouldn't have to see them in public" or "I don't feel comfortable around black people and shouldn't have to see them in my neighborhood" wrong?
62
I mean, SERIOUSLY? Read the following block and try to tell me that it's not an exact paraphrase of arguments used against homosexuals that the slog (rightly) decried as nonsense?
"I wrote back at more length. But at this point I was already starting to see red. I don’t pretend that AA is representative. But it captured a mentality that does seem pervasive among many more determined gun rights advocates — basically that us non-gun people need to be held down as it were and made to learn that it’s okay being around people carrying loaded weapons.
Well, I don’t want to learn. That doesn’t work where I live — geographically or metaphorically."
"I wrote back at more length. But at this point I was already starting to see red. I don’t pretend that AA is representative. But it captured a mentality that does seem pervasive among many more determined gun rights advocates — basically that us non-gun people need to be held down as it were and made to learn that it’s okay being around people carrying loaded weapons.
Well, I don’t want to learn. That doesn’t work where I live — geographically or metaphorically."
63
How are non-gun-carriers in a salon, school, church, or cafe to know the difference between a rational male openly carrying and an unhinged male openly carrying before the first bullet is fired?
64
On the subject of Iceland, bars, human nature, violence, and guns, I have a little story.
In Reykjavik, we visited a little bar/nightclub one night. Everything was tile and formica and the chairs were unupholstered. I was thinking it was a fairly unattractive place as we were sitting, sipping our drinks and looking at the crowd, when a fight broke out. Yelling, swinging fists, tables and chairs getting knocked over. It lasted not much longer than a minute. Friends of both drunken parties said soothing words to them and dusted them off. New drinks were ordered. Chairs and tables were righted and everything was back to normal a few minutes after that.
Words were said to the management and nobody got asked to leave. No one else seemed alarmed, either. After a brief silence, the chatter noise continued even more lively than before. People seemed to be laughing about the fight. Surprisingly few drinks got spilled, too. Apparently, the regulars knew to snatch their drinks off the tables at the first yell. My conclusion, judging solely from people's behavior and the easy-clean-up decor of the place is that this must happen all the time there.
Tempers flare, especially drunken ones, and Icelanders are serious binge drinkers. These two men who got into a fight were friends. They were friends before the fight, and with the help of their mutual friends were friends after the fight.
How would this have ended with a deadly weapon in the mix?
In Reykjavik, we visited a little bar/nightclub one night. Everything was tile and formica and the chairs were unupholstered. I was thinking it was a fairly unattractive place as we were sitting, sipping our drinks and looking at the crowd, when a fight broke out. Yelling, swinging fists, tables and chairs getting knocked over. It lasted not much longer than a minute. Friends of both drunken parties said soothing words to them and dusted them off. New drinks were ordered. Chairs and tables were righted and everything was back to normal a few minutes after that.
Words were said to the management and nobody got asked to leave. No one else seemed alarmed, either. After a brief silence, the chatter noise continued even more lively than before. People seemed to be laughing about the fight. Surprisingly few drinks got spilled, too. Apparently, the regulars knew to snatch their drinks off the tables at the first yell. My conclusion, judging solely from people's behavior and the easy-clean-up decor of the place is that this must happen all the time there.
Tempers flare, especially drunken ones, and Icelanders are serious binge drinkers. These two men who got into a fight were friends. They were friends before the fight, and with the help of their mutual friends were friends after the fight.
How would this have ended with a deadly weapon in the mix?
65
@61&62: Because black people and homosexuals are not designed to kill you. That's the difference. And to be quite honest, I think it's only familiarity that makes people who are comfortable around guns comfortable. I put it to you that the vast majority of people would be nervous around a grenade or a serial killer as well.
The gun culture types see that discomfort as an argument to familiarize everyone with guns. Since familiarizing people with gays makes them more comfortable with gays, doesn't that make sense? The problem is that fear of gays is an IRRATIONAL fear, whereas I think that fear of guns is pretty damn rational. Everyone has read a story about someone who has been accidentally killed by a gun. I know someone, who I like as a person, but don't think should own a gun, who thought her gun was unloaded and shot through her wall. Becoming familiar with guns seems to lead to an attitude that they're not really that dangerous, which is something I think society should discourage.
The gun culture types see that discomfort as an argument to familiarize everyone with guns. Since familiarizing people with gays makes them more comfortable with gays, doesn't that make sense? The problem is that fear of gays is an IRRATIONAL fear, whereas I think that fear of guns is pretty damn rational. Everyone has read a story about someone who has been accidentally killed by a gun. I know someone, who I like as a person, but don't think should own a gun, who thought her gun was unloaded and shot through her wall. Becoming familiar with guns seems to lead to an attitude that they're not really that dangerous, which is something I think society should discourage.
66
@61, @62: Here's the difference. A gay person is not a tool carefully designed to kill humans instantly. A gun is.
67
Concealed permits should be banned. Anyone carrying a gun should have it holstered and on the outside or unloaded with the chamber open.
68
All I know is that I have seen normally rational people act irrationally when under stressful situations. I have seen otherwise calm people become violent under certain conditions.
No one is immune to doing something stupid. And eventually we all do something stupid.
That's why I don't want to have to carry a gun. Because I know that I can't guarantee I will never be just like everyone else and do something stupid. And when I do I don't want to do that stupid thing with a gun.
But if everyone else has it, and knowing that everyone has their stupid moments, I will pretty much be forced to carry a gun as well. And trust me, none of you want me carrying a gun any more than I want to be carrying a gun.
Gun advocates tend to be the biggest boon for gun control folks. It's the real gun advocates who are scary as fuck.
I'm not afraid of guns themselves. I don't own one but I grew up in a house with guns. Most of my extended family have guns (which they store safely under lock and key), and I actually know how to use a gun. I'm a fairly good shot with a rifle.
It's not the guns that scare me. It's the people carrying the guns around who scare me. I don't trust anyone who I don't know really, really well who carries a gun (and to be honest there are people I do know really, really well who I wouldn't trust if they were carrying a gun).
Sorry, but for every responsible, law abiding gun carrying adult there is an idiot who thinks he's dirty harry, doesn't know what he or she is doing, and is a danger to everyone around them.
You all may have a right to carry your guns, but you also have to then accept that you won't be welcome in the presence of many people, that many people are going to look at you as a nut, and that people aren't going to trust you.
And if I ever do get a gun it isn't going to be because I feel the need to protect myself from the government, or even some random mugger on the street. It will be to protect myself from my gun toting neighbors because guns make many people overly bold and overly bold people are among the first to do something stupid.
And being a member of a hated minority group I have noticed that a large part of the demographic that are gun carriers overlap a good deal with the demographic of people who hate my kind.
But here is my take on gun advocates. They say it is about self protection. They say it is everyone's right. But when was the last time we saw the NRA doing outreach in black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods, or gay neighborhoods? Because who needs to be able to protect themselves more than minorities? Until the NRA and the pro gun lobbies start vocally advocating gun ownership among the black community, the gay community or other minority communities then we know that the right of every American to defend themselves is not their motivation. And if black Americans, Hispanic Americans and gay Americans started buying guns enemas you would see such a fast turn about on gun control by politicians and many of the current pro gun factions that it would make your head spin.
Once they realized that all the scary minorities were arming up, and not to fight some insane fantasy of taking on the government but rather to prepare themselves to face THEM, their tune would change.
More...
No one is immune to doing something stupid. And eventually we all do something stupid.
That's why I don't want to have to carry a gun. Because I know that I can't guarantee I will never be just like everyone else and do something stupid. And when I do I don't want to do that stupid thing with a gun.
But if everyone else has it, and knowing that everyone has their stupid moments, I will pretty much be forced to carry a gun as well. And trust me, none of you want me carrying a gun any more than I want to be carrying a gun.
Gun advocates tend to be the biggest boon for gun control folks. It's the real gun advocates who are scary as fuck.
I'm not afraid of guns themselves. I don't own one but I grew up in a house with guns. Most of my extended family have guns (which they store safely under lock and key), and I actually know how to use a gun. I'm a fairly good shot with a rifle.
It's not the guns that scare me. It's the people carrying the guns around who scare me. I don't trust anyone who I don't know really, really well who carries a gun (and to be honest there are people I do know really, really well who I wouldn't trust if they were carrying a gun).
Sorry, but for every responsible, law abiding gun carrying adult there is an idiot who thinks he's dirty harry, doesn't know what he or she is doing, and is a danger to everyone around them.
You all may have a right to carry your guns, but you also have to then accept that you won't be welcome in the presence of many people, that many people are going to look at you as a nut, and that people aren't going to trust you.
And if I ever do get a gun it isn't going to be because I feel the need to protect myself from the government, or even some random mugger on the street. It will be to protect myself from my gun toting neighbors because guns make many people overly bold and overly bold people are among the first to do something stupid.
And being a member of a hated minority group I have noticed that a large part of the demographic that are gun carriers overlap a good deal with the demographic of people who hate my kind.
But here is my take on gun advocates. They say it is about self protection. They say it is everyone's right. But when was the last time we saw the NRA doing outreach in black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods, or gay neighborhoods? Because who needs to be able to protect themselves more than minorities? Until the NRA and the pro gun lobbies start vocally advocating gun ownership among the black community, the gay community or other minority communities then we know that the right of every American to defend themselves is not their motivation. And if black Americans, Hispanic Americans and gay Americans started buying guns enemas you would see such a fast turn about on gun control by politicians and many of the current pro gun factions that it would make your head spin.
Once they realized that all the scary minorities were arming up, and not to fight some insane fantasy of taking on the government but rather to prepare themselves to face THEM, their tune would change.
69
I'm a bit skeptical of Josh Marshall's story. At the age of 4 or 5 he picked up a (real) rifle and was able to hold it in a position to shoot another 5 year old? A handgun I'd believe, but even a .22 is pretty large and heavy for a 5 year old.
Regardless, I see his experience as just more evidence that education is essential. I would fully support a nationwide gun education program. I bet it would be more effective in dollars per life saved than the feel-good gun buybacks that gun-control-nuts around here are so enamored of.
My personal opinion on concealed carry is that the likelihood that you will be able to successfully use your gun for self-defense is about as likely as winning the lottery, and the likelihood of your concealed carry piece being used against you or being used 'accidentally' being somewhat higher. On the other hand, despite concealed carry being allowed in far more states in the last decade, overall violent crime has gone down.
Regardless, in CB's defense, it seems to me that his actions de-escalated the situation at a point where it was still possible to do so without physical harm to anyone.
Regardless, I see his experience as just more evidence that education is essential. I would fully support a nationwide gun education program. I bet it would be more effective in dollars per life saved than the feel-good gun buybacks that gun-control-nuts around here are so enamored of.
My personal opinion on concealed carry is that the likelihood that you will be able to successfully use your gun for self-defense is about as likely as winning the lottery, and the likelihood of your concealed carry piece being used against you or being used 'accidentally' being somewhat higher. On the other hand, despite concealed carry being allowed in far more states in the last decade, overall violent crime has gone down.
Regardless, in CB's defense, it seems to me that his actions de-escalated the situation at a point where it was still possible to do so without physical harm to anyone.
70
@65: Speaking for one corner of the gun culture, I can tell you that the vast majority of us have no interest in forcing guns on anyone, or think it's a good idea to cart them around openly in QFC, freaking out moms and kids.
And honestly, from a safety standpoint I think you're overgeneralizing based on the idiots who make the news - a deep part of gun culture is safety and treating every gun like it's loaded, all the time.
@68: I'm sure this will get me flagged again as an NRA employee, but it's completely verifiable - go to a shooting range in or around Seattle sometime. I think it will put to rest the idea that the gun culture (at least around here) is only AARP age white dudes or zit faced trench coat mall ninjas waiting to explode.
You don't even have to go inside, just the parking lot.
And honestly, from a safety standpoint I think you're overgeneralizing based on the idiots who make the news - a deep part of gun culture is safety and treating every gun like it's loaded, all the time.
@68: I'm sure this will get me flagged again as an NRA employee, but it's completely verifiable - go to a shooting range in or around Seattle sometime. I think it will put to rest the idea that the gun culture (at least around here) is only AARP age white dudes or zit faced trench coat mall ninjas waiting to explode.
You don't even have to go inside, just the parking lot.
71
Sorry, I don't live in Seattle. But I have been to gun ranges many times. I am an archer and in many locations the only available archery range is connected to a gun range, so I have been to a fair number. And when I was a kid I was taught to shoot rifles at a gun range, so I am not inexperienced with guns and not unfamiliar with the gun ranges.
Last visit to the gun range a few weeks ago I got to listen to two pro gun guys talking about how important it was for them to have access to high capacity magazines and how nobody better think of coming for their guns, blah blah blah.
I certainly didn't feel any better about guns or gun owners when I left, and was happy to get home where I have access to two archery ranges that are not in the vicinity of a gun range.
Last visit to the gun range a few weeks ago I got to listen to two pro gun guys talking about how important it was for them to have access to high capacity magazines and how nobody better think of coming for their guns, blah blah blah.
I certainly didn't feel any better about guns or gun owners when I left, and was happy to get home where I have access to two archery ranges that are not in the vicinity of a gun range.
73
I don't feel like reading 72 comments. I just wanted to say that I am a gun owner, but I don't like the idea of others owning hand-guns. I don't like being lumped into a group who thinks owning hand-guns is ok. I have a hunting rifle. It gets shot when the nearest human being is almost beyond hearing it. I am a gun owner and I don't invoke the 2nd amendment EVER.
74
@ 6 You are totally right. Those frat boys should have been armed. There they were, just being drunk kids, yelling out the window at people on the sidewalks, required activity I think for frat boys, and then you were threatening them with a gun for no damn reason? Some super uptight hair-trigger random guy with a gun just walking around threatening people? They must have felt so unsafe! You could have killed them and they wouldn't have had any say in it. You are the reason why we worry. I don't care you've only drawn on unarmed civilians once. It should have been zero. Why are you out there starting fights, saying shit you wouldn't say if you weren't armed? You didn't do it because you were defending gay people. You didn't even do it because they were insulting you. You started the fight and then drew a gun on them because you thought they were assholes and you knew you'd get the chance to wave a weapon at them. Maybe you just weren't popular in college and had something to prove. You liked that idea of yourself as a vigilante of anti-assholishness. You threatened people with death for being annoying. You realized this was an assholish thing to do yourself and haven't repeated the action even though I am 100% certain worse assholes have said worse shit to you since. Why? If it wasn't wrong to do it the first time, why have you held back since? And isn't your lack of need for a weapon since that time proof you don't actually need it, and may indeed be relying on it to provide you with something else, to stand in, say, for your inability to navigate common social situations? Are you also the poster who described their gun as cute? Like a kitten or a puppy or a first grader is cute, I guess. Wonderful judgment you are displaying. Who wouldn't want you armed.
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75
@69 You know shit like that happens though. Why not to this guy? Does anyone here who lives in a rural area not know someone who has been accidentally shot? 1/3 Americans know someone who has been shot. That sound normal to you?
77
@68 I know, it gets me that when you talk to people who own guns, they are always talking about women, old folks, and children needing to be protected by guns. Yet those aren't the people who are generally armed, even though they easily could be if they wanted to (well, not kids, but you know what I mean). So why aren't the most vulnerable (everyone who isn't a white straight male) not armed to the teeth when it's so easy? If we made a law to allow everyone who isn't a straight white guy to have guns, and none for the SWG's, wouldn't that make the most sense in the world? I actually think the NRA would love it if minorities started arming themselves, they'd get money from that and the overblown racist/anti-gay response. However, I think most of their membership (sadly including many cops) already assumes minorities are criminals by default, which is why WWB (walking while black) can be such a dangerous activity in a rampant pro-gun culture.
78
@59
Thank you very much, that actually does mean a lot to me. As I have said before I find you to be very intelligent and generally agree or at least respect your opinions on most thing, your literal proficiency is above that of most of this papers staff. Plus Will in Seattle needs a handler. I too wish you well in life.
I too sincerely hope that I never ever have to use a firearm against another human being, it is one of the worst things that can happen to both parties involved. Owning a gun is one should not be taken lightly, it is one of the most serious responsibilities an individual can undertake, you are literally carrying death. Nothing will ever put that bullet after the trigger is pulled. I treat my guns as if there is a laser coming out the muzzle that constantly destroys anything it touches, it is not a toy but a tool to be treated with the utmost respect. It is something that philosophically changes a person. Ironically since this Sandy Hook I have sold off most of my semiautomatic firearms, only to valid concealed permit holders or well known friends, prices being what they are. The amount of email that I have received saying "I are want 2 buy yer gunz." is certainly disturbing, I could not sell to such people in good conscious regardless of price.
As a gun owner who carries concealed I agree there should be stricter requirements in regards to licensing. It should be at least as hard to get a Concealed Pistol License as it is to get a hunting license. Hunters safety consist of 12 hours of safety education followed by a test then a live fire test to ensure one can shoot accurately enough to kill and not wound an animal. This education is provided free by Washington State. I would love to see a similar program enacted for the Concealed Carry License combined with study of the legal aspects and shoot/no shoot scenarios. In fact I think everyone should have safety training, many accidents occur because people do not understand how firearms function, nor the basic rules of keep it pointed in a safe direction and keep your finger off the trigger, as well as drilling the "Don't touch a gun, tell an adult." for school children. Guns are not going to disappear, chances are everyone will run it to one at some point in their life and needs to know how to safely approach the situation.
Also you are right about my perspectives being changed, but not so much by the gun, but by my lives circumstances. Though I have owned a rifle for most of my adult life, it mainly sat in the closet and was occasionally taken out for target practice. It was a AK47 variant that I probably would not have purchased had it not been for the 94 ban. But hat really changed me was when I took a job in correction after being laid off from being a lab technician. For better or worse being put into that situation shattered many on the values I had grown up with. I for the first real time was confronted with true evil, evil that could only be stopped with naked force. I ended up quitting and switched to Emergency Medicine where many of the same lessons were reinforced, I have seen enough death and suffering for one lifetime. Despite this I do try to treat all people I meet IRL with the respect due to all human beings despite their social standing, something that is sadly missing from much of the industry.
I think that recently there has been a lot of fiery rhetoric coming from both sides of the issue, I think we can both safely say we have been guilty of it. Seeing firearms dealers close not due to law but lack of inventory has me terrified. Prices are skyrocketing when semi auto rifles or ammunition can even be found. It seems as if the country is raiding the armory and preparing for war, which is something I never want to see. We can only hope that cooler heads prevail.
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Thank you very much, that actually does mean a lot to me. As I have said before I find you to be very intelligent and generally agree or at least respect your opinions on most thing, your literal proficiency is above that of most of this papers staff. Plus Will in Seattle needs a handler. I too wish you well in life.
I too sincerely hope that I never ever have to use a firearm against another human being, it is one of the worst things that can happen to both parties involved. Owning a gun is one should not be taken lightly, it is one of the most serious responsibilities an individual can undertake, you are literally carrying death. Nothing will ever put that bullet after the trigger is pulled. I treat my guns as if there is a laser coming out the muzzle that constantly destroys anything it touches, it is not a toy but a tool to be treated with the utmost respect. It is something that philosophically changes a person. Ironically since this Sandy Hook I have sold off most of my semiautomatic firearms, only to valid concealed permit holders or well known friends, prices being what they are. The amount of email that I have received saying "I are want 2 buy yer gunz." is certainly disturbing, I could not sell to such people in good conscious regardless of price.
As a gun owner who carries concealed I agree there should be stricter requirements in regards to licensing. It should be at least as hard to get a Concealed Pistol License as it is to get a hunting license. Hunters safety consist of 12 hours of safety education followed by a test then a live fire test to ensure one can shoot accurately enough to kill and not wound an animal. This education is provided free by Washington State. I would love to see a similar program enacted for the Concealed Carry License combined with study of the legal aspects and shoot/no shoot scenarios. In fact I think everyone should have safety training, many accidents occur because people do not understand how firearms function, nor the basic rules of keep it pointed in a safe direction and keep your finger off the trigger, as well as drilling the "Don't touch a gun, tell an adult." for school children. Guns are not going to disappear, chances are everyone will run it to one at some point in their life and needs to know how to safely approach the situation.
Also you are right about my perspectives being changed, but not so much by the gun, but by my lives circumstances. Though I have owned a rifle for most of my adult life, it mainly sat in the closet and was occasionally taken out for target practice. It was a AK47 variant that I probably would not have purchased had it not been for the 94 ban. But hat really changed me was when I took a job in correction after being laid off from being a lab technician. For better or worse being put into that situation shattered many on the values I had grown up with. I for the first real time was confronted with true evil, evil that could only be stopped with naked force. I ended up quitting and switched to Emergency Medicine where many of the same lessons were reinforced, I have seen enough death and suffering for one lifetime. Despite this I do try to treat all people I meet IRL with the respect due to all human beings despite their social standing, something that is sadly missing from much of the industry.
I think that recently there has been a lot of fiery rhetoric coming from both sides of the issue, I think we can both safely say we have been guilty of it. Seeing firearms dealers close not due to law but lack of inventory has me terrified. Prices are skyrocketing when semi auto rifles or ammunition can even be found. It seems as if the country is raiding the armory and preparing for war, which is something I never want to see. We can only hope that cooler heads prevail.
79
@52 That's why someone I was talking to about this, as to why they didn't use non-lethal rounds in their home defense weapons, said you wanted to be sure you killed anyone who you didn't want entering your home, regardless of their intent. So they couldn't sue you, as they'd be dead. Nice.
80
@39 - The Wild West was pretty strict about firearms in public places. You had to hand in your gun when you went into town, or the law would come after you. That's what the OK Corral shootout was about.
82
@78-Thanks, CB for a level-headed summary and some background, along with excellent thoughts on concealed carry training. Cool.
I was raised with and around guns, and am a supporter of the 2nd amendment, but not what the NRA and gun lobby has become. I'm torn by the description of your incident with the 4 frat boys- and see both sides of the 'to threaten or not to threaten' argument. Can't take a side there.
But what I want to ask the 2nd Amendment zealots: exactly what part of "a well-organized militia" are you? Any attempt to organize anything is shouted and threatened down instantly, and that includes things like background checks, registering guns, requiring safety training, etc. NO DISCUSSION OF ANYTHING, EVER! is all the NRA has brought to the table post-Sandy Hook. Very poor response from people trying to persuade anyone. Much more like school-yard thugs.
I was raised with and around guns, and am a supporter of the 2nd amendment, but not what the NRA and gun lobby has become. I'm torn by the description of your incident with the 4 frat boys- and see both sides of the 'to threaten or not to threaten' argument. Can't take a side there.
But what I want to ask the 2nd Amendment zealots: exactly what part of "a well-organized militia" are you? Any attempt to organize anything is shouted and threatened down instantly, and that includes things like background checks, registering guns, requiring safety training, etc. NO DISCUSSION OF ANYTHING, EVER! is all the NRA has brought to the table post-Sandy Hook. Very poor response from people trying to persuade anyone. Much more like school-yard thugs.
83
@81- Do not taunt a gay man about his choice of weapon with sexist innuendo, please. lol (I'm assuming CB is gay here.)
84
21
wow.
based on your experience every gun owner should be dead by now.
or maybe you run in a really dysfunctional pack.
wow.
based on your experience every gun owner should be dead by now.
or maybe you run in a really dysfunctional pack.
85
The Right to Bear Arms is so the government can be overthrown if it gets too big for its britches.
please make a note of it.
please make a note of it.
86
"Cops, I don’t mind. They’re trained,"
Fuck that bullshit to fucking hell. He had to me to this point, cops are just as dangerous with their guns as anyone else. It shouldn't be expected that every cop carry a gun at all times but they should all be trained in many different crisis management styles and then guns as a last resort. The rest of the paragraph with the not wanting guns around playground public spaces, I get that there's a second amendment but come the fuck on you don't need an assault rifle to walk around fucking green lake.
Fuck that bullshit to fucking hell. He had to me to this point, cops are just as dangerous with their guns as anyone else. It shouldn't be expected that every cop carry a gun at all times but they should all be trained in many different crisis management styles and then guns as a last resort. The rest of the paragraph with the not wanting guns around playground public spaces, I get that there's a second amendment but come the fuck on you don't need an assault rifle to walk around fucking green lake.
87
Having been labeled as a gun nut by my fellow liberals on these boards, I thought I'd point out that I have no problem whatsoever with John Marshall being afraid of guns.
So guns scare him. Big deal. That's how he feels and that's his right. It has no bearing or effect on my life or my right to self-defense.
So guns scare him. Big deal. That's how he feels and that's his right. It has no bearing or effect on my life or my right to self-defense.
88
New Zealand, like Iceland falls within a high percentage of gun ownership/low per capita gun crime rate and we very definitely have a diverse population (1 in 5 people filling out the last census were born overseas).
We also have a handgun ban and strict rules about licensing ( must go through police), storage (must be stored and transported diassembled and separate from ammo) and usage (not for self defence).
Even the police here don't carry guns for day to day business. It's not a perfect system but the last time someone shot up a school here was in 1926...
We also have a handgun ban and strict rules about licensing ( must go through police), storage (must be stored and transported diassembled and separate from ammo) and usage (not for self defence).
Even the police here don't carry guns for day to day business. It's not a perfect system but the last time someone shot up a school here was in 1926...
90
@85 - No. It was written 200+ years ago by rich, white men that owned lots of slaves. It was so that those rich, white men with lots of slaves didn't get overthrown by them. Tyranny had many faces in days of old. Please make a note of it.
91
@87
You're not a liberal. You're a sockpuppet. You're aghast at the slippery slope of the extremely mild assault weapons ban, but not the vast government overreach of Obamacare? Doesn't compute.
The reason Josh Marshall's opinions have bearing is that he's not just venting. He's saying he has a right to live in a gun-free community. Meaning restricting guns. What you're doing is being dense to avoid the point he's trying to make, and conclude, along with the gun lobby, that only the opinions of gun owners are relevant to the discussion.
It's the way you get your script directly from the NRA playbook that shows you're a phony.
You're not a liberal. You're a sockpuppet. You're aghast at the slippery slope of the extremely mild assault weapons ban, but not the vast government overreach of Obamacare? Doesn't compute.
The reason Josh Marshall's opinions have bearing is that he's not just venting. He's saying he has a right to live in a gun-free community. Meaning restricting guns. What you're doing is being dense to avoid the point he's trying to make, and conclude, along with the gun lobby, that only the opinions of gun owners are relevant to the discussion.
It's the way you get your script directly from the NRA playbook that shows you're a phony.
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