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News & ArtsThursday, January 10, 2013
Religion Evangelical Pastors: Soon You'll Have to Choose Between Filling the Air with Homophobic Rants, Obsessing About Purity, Fighting Access to Abortion...
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 9:35 AM
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And if or when the Evangelical organizations re-align their views and message and find the pews not empty, will they recognize that this is history repeating itself? Religious messages have been in a state of change since... religion. The Old Testament is pretty good proof. It's only the old and rigid theology that hangs on with it's bitter, withered fingers.
Sure glad I never got wrapped up in all that.
Sure glad I never got wrapped up in all that.
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@1 If only the xtian-industrial-complex could stop spreading misery, lots of people could find more happiness.
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These are people who believe in God and embrace the positive aspects of the faith (introspection and altruism), but are tired of being represented by controlling, misogynist bigots with prurient interest in their sex lives. They're also tired of Sunday church being turned into a de facto Republican Party campaign event. Makes sense to me. On my personal road from faithful to agnostic during my late teens/early twenties, that's exactly why I stopped attending church and disassociated myself from organized religion, because church became apparently coupled with so many things I found idiotic, unrealistic, and/or morally reprehensible.
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I grew up evangelical in the very evangelical-dominated 'burbs of Atlanta. Church was the center of my social life, and most of my good friends were through one church thing or another. I figured out I was an atheist about halfway through college (the sexual politics of the church playing a very big role in that), and more or less cut myself off from pretty much everybody I had grown up with (more by attrition than by any conscious decision). I just wasn't in the mood to hash out my spiritual journey every time I ran into someone who knew me "before".
Fast forward 15 years or so, and with Facebook I am passively back in touch with a lot of people from that phase of my life. Most of them, unlike me, still very much identify as Christians. But I was/am genuinely surprised at how many of them do not appear to be interested in the culture wars at all, even in deep-red Georgia, with a lot even expressing support for marriage equality, choice, etc. Not a majority (I don't think), but a substantial number.
Fast forward 15 years or so, and with Facebook I am passively back in touch with a lot of people from that phase of my life. Most of them, unlike me, still very much identify as Christians. But I was/am genuinely surprised at how many of them do not appear to be interested in the culture wars at all, even in deep-red Georgia, with a lot even expressing support for marriage equality, choice, etc. Not a majority (I don't think), but a substantial number.
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Churches that have moderated their stance on things like abortion and homosexuality haven't had much luck filling the pews.
You can read more about that here:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/…
and here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinio…
You can read more about that here:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/…
and here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opinio…
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9: The article that Dan originally posted doesn't say that Evangelicals are liberal (on the contrary), it just says that they don't want to go out fighting into the middle of highly politicized issues any more. I think it's more the politicization of churches that's turning people off, not necessarily liberal vs conservative politics. It's unfortunate that support for civil rights is seen as politicization by many churchgoers, but that's the way it is in the religious world.
Also, just because a pastor is liberal doesn't mean they're a good pastor. I grew up in a very liberal church (good sexual politics, has a better record on the Iraq war than this paper does, etc.) but the pastor was boring and the music was boring and it had absolutely nothing to offer other than the fact that it was very liberal. And then one day you realize that you can be very liberal and sleep in on Sunday morning...
Also, just because a pastor is liberal doesn't mean they're a good pastor. I grew up in a very liberal church (good sexual politics, has a better record on the Iraq war than this paper does, etc.) but the pastor was boring and the music was boring and it had absolutely nothing to offer other than the fact that it was very liberal. And then one day you realize that you can be very liberal and sleep in on Sunday morning...
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Just goes to show that religion is a reflection of popular culture rather than any kind of absolute moral truth.
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@11 I think most liberals would rather sleep in on Sunday morning. They don't feel the need to have a church in their lives because they have people like Jon Stewart and Dan Savage to tell them what to think. I think the key to the success of people like Mark Driscoll is that they appeal to people who aren't comfortable w/ modern sexual mores.
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13, and your evidence that liberals rely on Jon Stewart, and Dan Savage rather than a church to think for them is? That liberal churches have low attendance doesn't prove your assertion. All church attendance is down. Your train of logic is wrecked.
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@14 Lets play a game of name a mega-church pastor. For every mega-church pastor I name who is against gay marriage, you have to name a mega-church pastor who is pro-gay marriage. I'll start. Rick Warren. Your turn.
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@13 Translation: "I don't like people who are different than me, and I'll make up a bunch of things about them to prove that my dislike is justified. In spite of the fact that the world is always changing, I'm still frightened and confused by that change and I'm going to express my fears by being angry at those people who are different than me."
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I'm just shocked that micromanaging people's lives is an unpopular approach.
My favorite quote from the article:
"Christian couples used to get married because they wanted to have sex, and I think now they realize that's not a reason to get married."
It's so nice when the lightbulb flicks on.
My favorite quote from the article:
"Christian couples used to get married because they wanted to have sex, and I think now they realize that's not a reason to get married."
It's so nice when the lightbulb flicks on.
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Yep. Catholic priests, at least in my area, have already picked up on this. Oh the wonderful homilies full of the meaning of the scripture and why Jesus wants to be nice to each other and not about politics... It almost makes me glad I'm awake in church.
@8 Your statements fill me with hope.
@8 Your statements fill me with hope.
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15: Most liberal Christians view megachurches as something of an abomination, because their size suffocates community. We might as well play "let's name millionaires who love unions." There might be a couple, but they'll be a minority, and they'll be a minority for a reason.
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@17 I don't know what hairs you're splitting, but read the article. Old Time Religion is a tough sell with today's younger generation, even amongst evangelicals. If you still find that hard to believe, if you still think the culture is the same as it was twenty years ago, I encourage you to take a look at the last election results. Evangelicals and evangelical culture got wiped out across the board.
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Also, a large degree of the success of Mark Driscoll is that he reaches out to young people in a way that liberal churches don't really do. I've gone to Mars Hill a few times out of morbid curiosity, and if you ignore the craziness coming out of his mouth, you see why he's popular - he's an excellent showman. He tells jokes, they've got music that young people like, he uses visual aids, it definitely holds your attention. And though he's crazy conservative, he also meets people where they're at, which liberal churches that are much closer to what most people in Seattle think and believe sometimes have a lot of trouble doing. Many times it seems liberal churches think that their liberal politics will be enough to attract young people, but have no idea how to interest them beyond that.
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@22 There are liberals who are excellent showman (our own Dan Savage for one). If there is a market for left leaning religious services why hasn't one of them stepped in to fill the void?
BTW I'm not making up this stuff about people w/ progressive political opinions being less religious than conservatives. It's born out by statistics. You can read more about that here:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/16381/church-…
BTW I'm not making up this stuff about people w/ progressive political opinions being less religious than conservatives. It's born out by statistics. You can read more about that here:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/16381/church-…
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15, That game is like claiming climate change isn't real because it snowed. Church attendance is dropping with every year. You also conveniently forgot to show your evidence that liberals replaced church mind control with Jon Stewart and Dan Savage .
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To add to my post at 24, Mega churches only gather together what's left of dwindling congregations of other failed churches. There's still fewer church goers overall than just a few years ago.
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I saw a Facebook meme a couple of weeks ago and got my first opportunity to use it last night. I was wandering around a store that had a television on with the nightly news playing. They were discussing The National Cathedral's decision this week to allow same sex weddings, (Yay!) and a pair of Christians were chatting, loudly and smugly, about God's wrath. Now, the meme suggested mentally replacing the word "God" with the word "Godzilla". Worked like a charm! I went from seething and wanting to break into this private conversation to tell these folks that they were a couple of ignorant bigots to chuckling loudly as I pictured a giant radioactive monster destroying the city.
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@24 I agree that people are becoming less religious. What I'm taking issue with is the notion that preachers can reverse or slow that trend by moderating their stances on things like abortion and homosexuality. If you click on the link I posted @23 you'll see that liberals go to church significantly less than conservatives do. They must be replacing it with something.
@26 But KW, Godzilla isn't real. That's just something that's made up to scare people. Now God on the other hand . . .
@26 But KW, Godzilla isn't real. That's just something that's made up to scare people. Now God on the other hand . . .
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@27 Your problem is continuing to look at religion = politics. The article talks about how young evangelicals are becoming less interested in politics. Might not the same be true for other Christians as well? May they not also be dropping out of "liberal" churches for the very same reason? You're playing the false equivalency game here, and it's intellectually dishonest.
Now, to *real* interpretation of the article, what I find fascinating is the quote, "The last generation was very focused on personal holiness. This generation also focuses on the outward expressions of faith." The modern evangelical movement's founding father is Billy Graham, and his philosophy is that the highest good is "accepting Jesus as your personal savior." He not only rejected doing 'good,' (good works) as being secondary, but stressed that they weren't important at all. Getting into heaven wasn't about being a good person, it was about joining the franchise completely and getting others to join.
What the quote seems to be pointing at is that it's not enough anymore to do the whole 'personal savior' thing, you also have to be a good person as well. Since that concept goes to the very bedrock of Evangelicalism, what it says to me is that this branch of Christianity is dying. I think many of the current leaders are sensing this, and it's scaring them shitless.
Now, to *real* interpretation of the article, what I find fascinating is the quote, "The last generation was very focused on personal holiness. This generation also focuses on the outward expressions of faith." The modern evangelical movement's founding father is Billy Graham, and his philosophy is that the highest good is "accepting Jesus as your personal savior." He not only rejected doing 'good,' (good works) as being secondary, but stressed that they weren't important at all. Getting into heaven wasn't about being a good person, it was about joining the franchise completely and getting others to join.
What the quote seems to be pointing at is that it's not enough anymore to do the whole 'personal savior' thing, you also have to be a good person as well. Since that concept goes to the very bedrock of Evangelicalism, what it says to me is that this branch of Christianity is dying. I think many of the current leaders are sensing this, and it's scaring them shitless.
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@27: this clause "liberals go to church significantly less than conservatives do" (absolutely true) has nothing to do with the sentence that follows: "They must be replacing it with something".
Why is there any need for replacement? I'm a second generation atheist and third generation non-churchgoer. Church and religion are simply irrelevant to me. I didn't need to "replace" them with anything.
It's not like food, where if you stop eating x you'll need to eat y.
Why is there any need for replacement? I'm a second generation atheist and third generation non-churchgoer. Church and religion are simply irrelevant to me. I didn't need to "replace" them with anything.
It's not like food, where if you stop eating x you'll need to eat y.
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27, flaws in your thinking are that you're comparing huge denominations to ones that where never big, and that all people who go to churches that preach against homosexuals and abortion are conservatives. Joe Biden is a Catholic, and most Catholics in the US support gay rights and marriage. Also, you neglected yet again to back up you claims that liberals traded church mind contol for Jon Stewart, and Dan Savage.
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@29- I agree completely. When I out-grew my need to be an evangelical xtian, I felt no need to replace it with anything. In fact, when anything (quilting, skiing, yardwork) is hashed over 'by two or more', I find it cloying, rather like a church. Forget joining a club of any kind, because there you'll find the same pressure to conform to their ways, dogma and beliefs, which I cannot stand after my stint with Jeebus and his followers.
I think folks are just growing up and don't need God-zilla (good one @26!) to feel good about themselves and their lives. Buh-bye, thought police of fundamentalism in any flavor. Guess God-zilla's gonna have to kill us all, to teach us a lesson in Godly Love.
I think folks are just growing up and don't need God-zilla (good one @26!) to feel good about themselves and their lives. Buh-bye, thought police of fundamentalism in any flavor. Guess God-zilla's gonna have to kill us all, to teach us a lesson in Godly Love.
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@30 "most Catholics in the US support gay rights and marriage."
Maybe so, but I'll bet Catholics who are more involved with the church are less likely to support gay marriage than the ones who attend mass only twice a year.
BTW my comment about Jon Stewart and Dan Savage was a flippant way of saying that liberals tend to look to non-religious thinkers and ideas for guidance in resolving ethical questions. Do you think it is a coincidence that it was a Republican rather than a Democratic president who said his favorite political philosopher was Jesus Christ?
Maybe so, but I'll bet Catholics who are more involved with the church are less likely to support gay marriage than the ones who attend mass only twice a year.
BTW my comment about Jon Stewart and Dan Savage was a flippant way of saying that liberals tend to look to non-religious thinkers and ideas for guidance in resolving ethical questions. Do you think it is a coincidence that it was a Republican rather than a Democratic president who said his favorite political philosopher was Jesus Christ?
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32, do you throw your back out moving that goal posts so much?
Care to cite the source for your statistics? Or did you pull that out of your ass like you always do? The majority of Catholics support gay and woman's rights.
So you where just throwing a cheap shot bomb with the Dan Savage/Jon Stewart comment? Typical.
"Maybe so, but I'll bet Catholics who are more involved with the church are less likely to support gay marriage than the ones who attend mass only twice a year"
Care to cite the source for your statistics? Or did you pull that out of your ass like you always do? The majority of Catholics support gay and woman's rights.
So you where just throwing a cheap shot bomb with the Dan Savage/Jon Stewart comment? Typical.
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@ 27: LOL! Being an agnostic, I'm open to the possibility of God or Godzilla. Or perhaps both, in some sort of epic battle for the afterlife.
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I think it's worth questioning if "no longer going to church," "no longer involved in religion," and "no longer a believer" can really be assumed to be the same thing (as most commenters seem to be assuming). Most of the left-leaning (and being an anarchist-communist, I know some FAR left people) folks I know are at least agnostic if not actually spiritual/religious, though very few have any patience for organized religion and even fewer attend any sort of church.
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1) Ethics.
2) Spirituality.
3) A desire for harmony with each other and our planet.
I don't think any of these is on the wane. Oh, cynicism may overcome them in us for many years, but I think many of us come back to a deep desire to experience them eventually.
Organized religion...
I think many of us have realized how organized religion can fail at either ethics, spirituality, promoting harmony or all three. Dogma can get in the way of spirituality. If you have to believe a set of unbelievable precepts in order to join the club, well... that's a barrier, isn't it? I wandered away from the religion of my birth because I just didn't see how all the rules and rituals could do anything other than clutter my life and induce more anxiety. Listening to some of the bilious rantings that comes out of the mouths of some religious "leaders," you realize they are practicing little more than a mix of pandering and bullying. This is not conducive to finding spiritual peace or insight, in my humble opinion.
So, while many mainstream religions are losing congregants, many so-called agnostics and atheists are finding a deeper spirituality with yoga, new-age-y things, and just within themselves. For me, the Quaker meeting I attend bridges the gap between new age spirituality and a desire for community. YMMV.
2) Spirituality.
3) A desire for harmony with each other and our planet.
I don't think any of these is on the wane. Oh, cynicism may overcome them in us for many years, but I think many of us come back to a deep desire to experience them eventually.
Organized religion...
I think many of us have realized how organized religion can fail at either ethics, spirituality, promoting harmony or all three. Dogma can get in the way of spirituality. If you have to believe a set of unbelievable precepts in order to join the club, well... that's a barrier, isn't it? I wandered away from the religion of my birth because I just didn't see how all the rules and rituals could do anything other than clutter my life and induce more anxiety. Listening to some of the bilious rantings that comes out of the mouths of some religious "leaders," you realize they are practicing little more than a mix of pandering and bullying. This is not conducive to finding spiritual peace or insight, in my humble opinion.
So, while many mainstream religions are losing congregants, many so-called agnostics and atheists are finding a deeper spirituality with yoga, new-age-y things, and just within themselves. For me, the Quaker meeting I attend bridges the gap between new age spirituality and a desire for community. YMMV.
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