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News & ArtsFriday, January 4, 2013
Crime / Comedy / The Ladies Jamie Kilstein On Rape Culture, Homophobic Tweets, Glenn Beck, Girls Who Go Out to Places Wearing Things, and Second Homes in Space
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 4:00 PM
Jamie—who's fucking hilarious—is doing a show in Seattle on January 12 at the Highline. Tickets here.
1
this guy is UNDENiably a total retard. I listened to him being interviewed by joe rogan and some other guy [its probably on youtube] He is unquestionably a bad person; or at least an idiot. Theres no way you could hear this interview and disagree wit me.
3
I can confirm that this guy is a douchebag - or at least he was ten years ago when we dated and he didn't believe I was a virgin because I "seemed to know what I was doing" and then didn't call my until he needed a place to crash when his tour came through the town where I was a freshman in college. (He did NOT get a place to crash.) His comedy used to be much less socially conscious and much more offensive for the sake of edginess. Maybe he's changed, but I have a feeling he just found a tack that got him a lot of twitter followers.
7
I definitely didn't like how upset he got about his wife being heckled. He seemed more concerned that the driver dared to heckle HIS wife than about anything else. Just sounded creepily possessive to me.
And the rest wasn't that funny.
And the rest wasn't that funny.
8
I dislike his comedy, the podcast they do is good but I gave up due to their extremism. I may start listening again as there are so very few independent political shows of any quality. No Agenda is their right wing equivalent, good and entertaining but often extremist.
9
After seeing his representation of his conversation with Joe Rogan and knowing how it really went down I can't take JK very seriously.
11
Granted, I don't know anything else about this guy, but living in what I would dub the Capital of Street Harassment (appropriate that it's also the Capital of the country), he's right-on. This morning, while walking the dog, in sweats, having not brushed my hair or my teeth yet, I was greeted with "good morning, beautiful," and "how you doing, baby?" And that's just everyday lingo, not even meant to be threatening - just the way these guys talk, part of their culture. His "reaction" to the garbage truck driver was a good taste of how it feels - what do you say? How do you respond to that? Doesn't matter, they'll likely just laugh at you and maybe even escalate it/insult or threaten you.
And it's WORSE if you're with a guy and he tries to stick up for you. Then you feel like TWO people's property, at least one of whom knows you and, supposedly, respects you. A guy responding generally also results in one of two predictable responses: (a) why won't you join our club ("come on man, it's a compliment!" "you know you want a piece of that." etc.) or (b) derogation ("uh, oh, we made her widdle boyfriend mad." "pussy defending a pussy, huh?" "{insert gay slur}" etc.). Counting the casually issued "baby's" "beautiful's" "gorgeous's" etc., this happens to me at least 5 times a day (yes, A DAY); counting only the most egregious incidents, at least once a day. I guess I should stop going places wearing things, because, yeah, that's the only "reason" this happens to me, and just about every other woman on the planet (though it is really, REALLY bad here...nowhere else I've ever been have guys felt such an entitlement to my time and attention).
And it's WORSE if you're with a guy and he tries to stick up for you. Then you feel like TWO people's property, at least one of whom knows you and, supposedly, respects you. A guy responding generally also results in one of two predictable responses: (a) why won't you join our club ("come on man, it's a compliment!" "you know you want a piece of that." etc.) or (b) derogation ("uh, oh, we made her widdle boyfriend mad." "pussy defending a pussy, huh?" "{insert gay slur}" etc.). Counting the casually issued "baby's" "beautiful's" "gorgeous's" etc., this happens to me at least 5 times a day (yes, A DAY); counting only the most egregious incidents, at least once a day. I guess I should stop going places wearing things, because, yeah, that's the only "reason" this happens to me, and just about every other woman on the planet (though it is really, REALLY bad here...nowhere else I've ever been have guys felt such an entitlement to my time and attention).
13
It amazes me that a guy can grow to adulthood and not know this happens to women all the time, because at the very least he's seen it, over and over again, just by walking around, and probably not reacted. The incident with his wife was actually pretty mild, really, compared to what she's certainly had to deal with throughout her life.
I've also always thought that a big part of homophobia (for men) is feeling what all girls learn to fear at 11 or 12 or whenever men start really noticing them - that they can be powerless to prevent the dangerous desire of men. No one is out there worried that women want them, because women don't pose a physical threat. Men's desire is scary because it is as a culture poorly controlled and physically inflicted against the victims will. This reality is always with women from a very young age. The ridiculous homophobic rants of adult men are a childish temper tantrum against being made to feel (very rarely, very mildly) what women feel every day. It is a strong anti-rape feeling as regards themselves that they don't extend to women. It seems to me like it might be especially acute because those homophobic straight men are also more likely to be those who aren't respectful of women, who seek to control their bodies in other ways, or who know those who have, have seen, or have participated in sexual abuse of women and have not stopped it. Rape is real to them, but only from the one socially acceptable side. To have the threat they themselves represent towards women turned around on them is surely a great crime against humanity right? Men aren't supposed to feel that fear, only women. I think this is the core discomfort toward homosexuality - not disgust with anal sex, not religious beliefs. The same fear all women learn as children.
More...
I've also always thought that a big part of homophobia (for men) is feeling what all girls learn to fear at 11 or 12 or whenever men start really noticing them - that they can be powerless to prevent the dangerous desire of men. No one is out there worried that women want them, because women don't pose a physical threat. Men's desire is scary because it is as a culture poorly controlled and physically inflicted against the victims will. This reality is always with women from a very young age. The ridiculous homophobic rants of adult men are a childish temper tantrum against being made to feel (very rarely, very mildly) what women feel every day. It is a strong anti-rape feeling as regards themselves that they don't extend to women. It seems to me like it might be especially acute because those homophobic straight men are also more likely to be those who aren't respectful of women, who seek to control their bodies in other ways, or who know those who have, have seen, or have participated in sexual abuse of women and have not stopped it. Rape is real to them, but only from the one socially acceptable side. To have the threat they themselves represent towards women turned around on them is surely a great crime against humanity right? Men aren't supposed to feel that fear, only women. I think this is the core discomfort toward homosexuality - not disgust with anal sex, not religious beliefs. The same fear all women learn as children.
14
I have a female friend who is EXTREMELY attractive. It can be really annoying to hang out with her; simply walking down the street guys will chat her up and cat call and simply harass her in "oh so charming" ways. Forget trying to go out for a drink or a dinner or anything like that; she just gets bombarded by anonymous attention from strangers. Until you've been in that situation or observed it up close you have no idea how annoying or creepy or disturbing it is. A few months ago she bitched to me about how if she tries to go running she'll get at least three or four cars go by with guys trying to pick her up. She's just trying to get some damned exercise; leave her the hell alone, OK?
Guys: Treat women the way you would want your daughter, wife or mom to be treated. Attractive women are well aware that they are attractive; they don't need to be told again and again or groped or hit on constantly. It's not going to get you in their pants. Leave them the fuck alone and let them get on with their day.
Guys: Treat women the way you would want your daughter, wife or mom to be treated. Attractive women are well aware that they are attractive; they don't need to be told again and again or groped or hit on constantly. It's not going to get you in their pants. Leave them the fuck alone and let them get on with their day.
16
@11, I too am surprised daily by the level of sexism here. It's like I'm not supposed to leave the house. That's the message: just the sight of me upsets some strange man's ideas about something. And there is nothing you can do about it either. If I wear jeans and a sweatshirt, they complain about how sloppy I look. If I'm all dressed up on the Metro, say, on my way to the Library of Congress (and usually very busy reading and writing), they think they can ogle me and make comments or even rub up against me. (BTW, this bothers me almost more than the eyeballing: the fact that I'm reading and thinking and taking notes, in other words, "working," yet ANY young punk thinks he's important enough to disturb what I'm doing).
@14, it's not about getting into your pants (or not just about that). I've tried all kinds of things to get them to stop. If you act welcoming to their comments they get angry (I guess because you didn't respond with the proper level of fear or embarrassment), or they think you're crazy.
Back to @11, I now ride Capital Bikeshare bikes everywhere instead of walking. And the street harassment has decreased considerably. I guess I breeze by the assholes so fast they don't have time to formulate a rude comment.
@14, it's not about getting into your pants (or not just about that). I've tried all kinds of things to get them to stop. If you act welcoming to their comments they get angry (I guess because you didn't respond with the proper level of fear or embarrassment), or they think you're crazy.
Back to @11, I now ride Capital Bikeshare bikes everywhere instead of walking. And the street harassment has decreased considerably. I guess I breeze by the assholes so fast they don't have time to formulate a rude comment.
17
@7, yeah he didn't seem to learn anything from that incident. I'll bet his wife was not surprised by the comment AT ALL. However, he didn't tell us how she reacted or felt.
Overall though I thought his comedy was pretty good and different. I guess you don't have to be nice or evolved to be funny.
Overall though I thought his comedy was pretty good and different. I guess you don't have to be nice or evolved to be funny.
19
I like this guy, I'm planning to go to the show. But I agree it was weirdly possessive the way he stepped in, regardless of his intentions, which I believe were good. I am probably projecting though - I know that I would have hated it if I were the female in that situation.
It is hard out there for a girl - I get unwanted attention pretty frequently, and it doesn't seem to matter whether I'm all shlubby and gross or if I'm done up. The worst groping though was at the Crocodile for Blue Scholars/Stranger Christmas party two years ago. Could not even get through the room without fucking hands all over the place. I still wish I'd punched a few people.
It is hard out there for a girl - I get unwanted attention pretty frequently, and it doesn't seem to matter whether I'm all shlubby and gross or if I'm done up. The worst groping though was at the Crocodile for Blue Scholars/Stranger Christmas party two years ago. Could not even get through the room without fucking hands all over the place. I still wish I'd punched a few people.
20
"Guys: Treat women the way you would want your daughter, wife or mom"
I don't plan of fucking them though.
I don't plan of fucking them though.
21
Women who complain about getting cat calls will be complaining about being "invisible" in about 15 years.
22
Actually, I fully admit that I'm not all *that* attractive. Yes, I look young (best guess these days lands generally somewhere between 26-28, generally around the younger end of that...sweethearts, everyone I know/meet on that front :) ), yes, I'm a little busty, but I'm not a tall, leggy sex-bomb all done up all the time. I'm average height, a bit muscular, and a ginger who is normally dressed in one of the two "DC uniforms" (either somewhat sloppy casual wear or a dour suit). In any case, I have no desire to be the "baby" of any random guy on the street. But it's not about sex appeal or even really wanting to fuck the girl, now is it? It's about exerting your dominance. I kind of feel like that might be why it's so bad here in DC...we have A LOT of powerful, successful women here, and A LOT of bamas of the male persuasion. If you appear to be a successful woman, in any small way, they really go after you.
No one, outside of stupid tourists and MD drivers, has harassed me in any meaningful way while using CaBi, so you might be on to something Sandiai. Unfortunately, I have to cross the street to get one/drop one off from work and have to walk a few blocks to/from home from the nearest station. Not to mention using Metro for other trips and walking my dog. If I can't even walk around the block looking like a disgusting, frumpy, half-awake troll doll at 9 AM on a Saturday without drawing attention, there really is no "safe space" in this city.
No one, outside of stupid tourists and MD drivers, has harassed me in any meaningful way while using CaBi, so you might be on to something Sandiai. Unfortunately, I have to cross the street to get one/drop one off from work and have to walk a few blocks to/from home from the nearest station. Not to mention using Metro for other trips and walking my dog. If I can't even walk around the block looking like a disgusting, frumpy, half-awake troll doll at 9 AM on a Saturday without drawing attention, there really is no "safe space" in this city.
23
Sorry, I should clarify a few things. First, getting my blogs confused..."bama" is a "fool" or someone of low intelligence or social status, generally a man. Sorry, totally a DC thing. CaBi = Capitol Bikeshare, our local bikesharing service.
While the ring on my finger should warn just about anyone off, I am not offended by someone making a decent pass at me. Of course, I define a "decent pass" as striking up a good conversation or other generally respectful tactics. After all, that is how the giver of that ring succeeded, so I don't fault someone for *trying* in a respectful way (with the caveat that if I back away and flash the bling, you should get the hint).
I'm also not offended by an honest compliment. About a year ago, headed to a special event right after work, a young kid (20 at MOST) who looked like a total punk, sitting next to me on the Metro tapped me on the shoulder. We were both wearing headphones, and he had popped his out. I popped out an earbud out and he said "you smell really good...what are you wearing?" I had spritzed on perfume right before leaving work, thanked him for the compliment, and told him what perfume I was wearing. He nodded, popped his earbuds back in, and left me alone. An honest compliment, like that, is FINE. He wasn't harassing me, and I wouldn't consider anyone who paid me a nice compliment and left it at that as a harasser. It's only when they carry on that I roll my eyes and look for a way out.
While the ring on my finger should warn just about anyone off, I am not offended by someone making a decent pass at me. Of course, I define a "decent pass" as striking up a good conversation or other generally respectful tactics. After all, that is how the giver of that ring succeeded, so I don't fault someone for *trying* in a respectful way (with the caveat that if I back away and flash the bling, you should get the hint).
I'm also not offended by an honest compliment. About a year ago, headed to a special event right after work, a young kid (20 at MOST) who looked like a total punk, sitting next to me on the Metro tapped me on the shoulder. We were both wearing headphones, and he had popped his out. I popped out an earbud out and he said "you smell really good...what are you wearing?" I had spritzed on perfume right before leaving work, thanked him for the compliment, and told him what perfume I was wearing. He nodded, popped his earbuds back in, and left me alone. An honest compliment, like that, is FINE. He wasn't harassing me, and I wouldn't consider anyone who paid me a nice compliment and left it at that as a harasser. It's only when they carry on that I roll my eyes and look for a way out.
24
Yep, his possessiveness came across as slightly "benevolently sexist". But, we don't know his wife; maybe she's very shy -- maybe he knows that she'd want him to step in, in those sorts of situations. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.
I actually found the clip very funny. A shame to hear from @1/@3 that maybe he was not always so nice, but people are rarely paragons of morality in all aspects of life, and certainly he seems to *now* be very progressive.
I actually found the clip very funny. A shame to hear from @1/@3 that maybe he was not always so nice, but people are rarely paragons of morality in all aspects of life, and certainly he seems to *now* be very progressive.
25
It's like I'm not supposed to leave the house. That's the message: just the sight of me upsets some strange man's ideas about something. And there is nothing you can do about it either.
Absolutely. I thought him tying harassment culture to rape culture was the most insightful bit in the routine. They are both about shaming women for the simple act of being female in the public sphere, intimidating them into living constrained, sequestered, private lives, as if this were Saudi Arabia.
Absolutely. I thought him tying harassment culture to rape culture was the most insightful bit in the routine. They are both about shaming women for the simple act of being female in the public sphere, intimidating them into living constrained, sequestered, private lives, as if this were Saudi Arabia.
26
This wasn't just any woman, this was his wife, and that explains a bit about why he acted so protectively and possessively. He probably cares a great deal about her and wants to do everything he can to help her out. That's not so much "benevolently sexist" as it is "happily married".
As far as how to get laid, what's always worked well for me:
1. Talk to her like she's a person, just like you.
2. Look her in the eye, not in the chest.
3. Take your time, and don't feel a strong need to go from "Hi" to sex in a matter of minutes or even hours.
As far as how to get laid, what's always worked well for me:
1. Talk to her like she's a person, just like you.
2. Look her in the eye, not in the chest.
3. Take your time, and don't feel a strong need to go from "Hi" to sex in a matter of minutes or even hours.
27
@26:
Since he is in no way better qualified to protect her from crude remarks than she is to protect herself, I think he is sexist.
She is an adult, not a child that needs to be shielded.
Tellingly, he didn't mention with a single word what she thought about the driver or the situation.
Since he is in no way better qualified to protect her from crude remarks than she is to protect herself, I think he is sexist.
She is an adult, not a child that needs to be shielded.
Tellingly, he didn't mention with a single word what she thought about the driver or the situation.
28
I'm cool with his defensive attitude, because I have female friends who would act the same way - defensive of a friend who almost got killed and then got harassed.
If you love someone, you come to their defense, regardless of gender norms.
If you love someone, you come to their defense, regardless of gender norms.
29
Great set and I enjoyed the tie in of Harassment and Rape; however, I was a little put off when he stated men could never understand what it is to be harassed in public. As a decently attractive gay man, I've had my share of cat-calls, proposals and other less charming names hurled my way, and many times, from women. I am not trying to equate the grief I've gone through with what women go through, I merely felt a bit annoyed with his supposition that only women are harassed.
30
I love how he's trying so hard, yet he fails in the eyes of some commenters to behave based on somebody's abstract philosophical template of how everyone should think and act with regards to gender. Nope, not cool enough hipster - throw them to the dogs.
34
Ah, so if my wife gets almost run over and insulted in the street I should step aside and let her handle the situation all by herself.
"Let me help you up, honey, the man seems to have something he wants to discuss with you. I'll just excuse myself so you two can hash this out in private. Text me when you're done, love you!"
Got it.
"Let me help you up, honey, the man seems to have something he wants to discuss with you. I'll just excuse myself so you two can hash this out in private. Text me when you're done, love you!"
Got it.
35
@34:
Yes, why not?
What would you do to the driver that your wife couldn't do by herself?
Pull him out of the cab and beat him up?- Neither helpful nor realistic.
Hurl insults at him?- Not helpful, but your wife should be able to do that.
Ignore him?- Your wife probably has more practice in doing that than you do.
Yes, why not?
What would you do to the driver that your wife couldn't do by herself?
Pull him out of the cab and beat him up?- Neither helpful nor realistic.
Hurl insults at him?- Not helpful, but your wife should be able to do that.
Ignore him?- Your wife probably has more practice in doing that than you do.
36
To be fair, his main problem is that he realises his own helplessness in that situation.
He knows there is nothing he can do about it. But just that he thinks that HE should make it all better for her rubs me the wrong way.
He knows there is nothing he can do about it. But just that he thinks that HE should make it all better for her rubs me the wrong way.
37
I'm not arguing that the urge to do something is wrong. The basic urge to stand up/fight (figuratively) for friends and loved ones is a GOOD thing. But it's most unhelpful in this situation. You're already feeling pretty ashamed and probably very angry, and then someone else speaks up, and you feel even more powerless on top of feeling bad that THEY'RE now probably getting harassed. It's very much so a no-win situation, but I'd tend to encourage men to not intervene except in the case of a physical threat. I'd love it if calling the harassers out had some kind of impact, but it doesn't. They've already made a fool of themselves in public, they generally don't care if you try to compound their foolishness. The ones who do care sometimes become agitated or violent when you call them out. If there's a business marking on the vehicle, I call it in. If the perp does anything beyond cat calling, I call the police (threats of sexual violence or attempting to or actually touching me). Other than that, screaming back doesn't accomplish anything. Sad, true...same old song and dance.
38
@Migrationist
While I as a woman am generally annoyed by possessive men and understand why that part of the bit is off-putting, this is not him telling a story to you one-on-one at a coffee shop, it's a comedy bit that is affected by both time limitation of his set and, of course, comedic timing. This story was part of his describing his own discovery of the ridiculousness of rape culture, so describing in detail how his wife felt about it (something that could be pretty easily inferred, since he likely would have mentioned it if his wife was for some reason stoked on verbal harassment from strangers) would have been kind of tangential, taken away from the humor of the story, and eaten up a bunch of time.
While I as a woman am generally annoyed by possessive men and understand why that part of the bit is off-putting, this is not him telling a story to you one-on-one at a coffee shop, it's a comedy bit that is affected by both time limitation of his set and, of course, comedic timing. This story was part of his describing his own discovery of the ridiculousness of rape culture, so describing in detail how his wife felt about it (something that could be pretty easily inferred, since he likely would have mentioned it if his wife was for some reason stoked on verbal harassment from strangers) would have been kind of tangential, taken away from the humor of the story, and eaten up a bunch of time.
39
To be honest, he looks like a rather typical Capitol Hill, squirrelly, pussified hipster, so I can see why he feels inadequate against a working class hooligan. I mean, if it'd be a bunch of gangsta thugs or barrio bros', his testicles probably would have run off by themselves.
But remember folks, regret = rape and flirting = rape culture.
But remember folks, regret = rape and flirting = rape culture.
40
Isn't comedy supposed to be funny?
This is a bit like Mallard Fillmore or Day By Day, just from a different part of the political spectrum: you have the politics, you have the need to advance those politics, and you try and awkwardly tape words to it that you hope will be funny.
This is a bit like Mallard Fillmore or Day By Day, just from a different part of the political spectrum: you have the politics, you have the need to advance those politics, and you try and awkwardly tape words to it that you hope will be funny.
41
38: Exactly. Also it isn't necessarily possessive to yell at someone who is acting like an asshole to your wife. Sexist possessiveness may be one of the common motives for that, sure, but it's far from the only one. If someone acts like a colossal asshole towards someone you care about, it's normal to get pissed and it's normal to shout at that person.
40: Nothing; I repeat, NOTHING, on any part of the political spectrum, is as shitty as "Day by Day." Kilstein may be more ranty than comedic, but at least his rants are interpretable.
40: Nothing; I repeat, NOTHING, on any part of the political spectrum, is as shitty as "Day by Day." Kilstein may be more ranty than comedic, but at least his rants are interpretable.
42
@41 re Muir: (Shrugs) Difference in degree, perhaps, but not a difference in kind. You have an Earnest Intent, you have a sympathetic audience, you say the thing you both believe, with unfunny additions which will receive sympathetic laughter which says "I SO agree with you!" rather than "that's funny!". At the end of the day, neither can look in the mirror and honestly say, "I'm funny", but only "they laughed to show that we share the same views".
43
So I shouldn't hold doors open for ladies? Considering how few there are I'm Seattle, it's not too hard a a change for me.
44
I'd ask a question of the women here, but especially older women: has this sort of street misconduct gotten worse over the past forty years, or has it diminished to any degree?
Second, isn't it a bit of a stretch to extend the term "rape culture" out over vulgarities, no matter how crass? Isn't there a point where we're not talking about "rape culture" but rather "sexist asshole culture"?
Second, isn't it a bit of a stretch to extend the term "rape culture" out over vulgarities, no matter how crass? Isn't there a point where we're not talking about "rape culture" but rather "sexist asshole culture"?
45
Jamie is well intentioned. I would suggest a nice gender studies class for all the men who wish to get on board with the movement. I am glad he is bringing the issue of rape culture to the forefront. Marriage is a patriarchy, the last time I checked--since the beginning of time, where women are sold as property. And so when a truck driver harasses Jamie's property, it is an affront to his manhood. The truck driver wanted to fuck HIS wife OH HELL NO!! This is a key aspect of rape culture for sure. In Feminist dialogue about the subject of rape culture, the impact of thousands of years of marriage inequality is somehow lost, most likely due to the awesome civil rights movement to give anyone who wants to marry the legal opportunity. I wish to God LGBT had the rights to marriage so that we can put it aside and get on with a real discussion on why marriage is even so very superduper important in our culture to begin with? I seriously do not know. How about a tax credit for singles who do not have two incomes and split the bills? I am glad that some men are trying to get on the bandwagon with regard to Feminist movement, though. Jamie seems to see himself as some kind of a hero for the movement like google his name and rape culture pops up! If he view himself in this way, please please read some Feminist lit and sit in on a women's studies class. Do us all a favor?
46
@44, I don't think it's a stretch to extend the term rape culture to this type of behavior. These guys (I refuse to call them men) believe that they are entitled to my time and attention simply because I'm in the same place they are, and if I won't give it to them willingly, they'll demand/take it, in a way that they KNOW is offensive/upsetting. I'm their pawn, to be used as they see fit. Their goal is to cause me discomfort by displaying their dominance over me (what am I going to do about it?) in a sexual way. The casually-issued sexist terms are a part of rape culture, in the sense that it is a "culture." Even those who mean no harm see nothing wrong with calling me "baby" or "honey" or "beautiful," terms of endearment generally reserved for people who have earned the right to use those terms. Most of those are unwitting, but they're still a part of the "culture" where a woman is worth only her physical/sexual value to a man. No woman in their right mind would address an unknown man on the street as "baby," yet that's an "acceptable" way to address any and all women, known and unknown, in some places (including here in DC). Rape culture is a "culture" because it's a pervasive attitude that devalues women. No matter how little harm someone might mean by using "sexist" terms to address a woman, it's a symptom of the culture.
47
@35, That's the three options you came up with? Pretty shallow.
You're confusing being a "white knight" with standing by the person you love when they've been assaulted.
We don't need to impress each other with heroics but if she's assaulted you can bet I won't abandon her, as you suggest, so she can prove, what again? That she can handle all her own battles?
Shit, I don't handle all my own battles in life, why should she have to? Kind of goes against all that 'till death do us part' vow to not help her fend off attackers, take care of her when she's fallen, help her feel better, etc.
Two people can certainly accomplish more than one; including protecting each other, which is kind of the point of being in a relationship in the first place.
You're confusing being a "white knight" with standing by the person you love when they've been assaulted.
We don't need to impress each other with heroics but if she's assaulted you can bet I won't abandon her, as you suggest, so she can prove, what again? That she can handle all her own battles?
Shit, I don't handle all my own battles in life, why should she have to? Kind of goes against all that 'till death do us part' vow to not help her fend off attackers, take care of her when she's fallen, help her feel better, etc.
Two people can certainly accomplish more than one; including protecting each other, which is kind of the point of being in a relationship in the first place.
50
@debug:
She wasn't assaulted, someone yelled something at her.
@Ms. D:
I was quite taken aback when I was called "honey" and "sweety" by the (female) cashiers in a cafeteria in Missouri.
She wasn't assaulted, someone yelled something at her.
@Ms. D:
I was quite taken aback when I was called "honey" and "sweety" by the (female) cashiers in a cafeteria in Missouri.
51
@50 She almost got run down in the street by the same guy and then he came back and taunted her.
That's assault in my book, you can call it making a new friend for all I care.
Way to duck the point by focusing on minutia.
That's assault in my book, you can call it making a new friend for all I care.
Way to duck the point by focusing on minutia.
52
50: Nevertheless, sexism isn't the only reason a person might have for getting pissed and reacting when someone yells at their wife or girlfriend.
His anger could have been due to a belief that she was his property and nobody should mess with his property, sure. OR it could have been due to him finding it unpleasant when someone he cares about is treated like shit.
Similarly, his reaction could have been due to a belief that she's a delicate lady who is incapable of standing up for herself, sure. OR it could have been a reaction to his own anger at seeing someone he cares about getting treated like shit.
Can you explain to me what seems so far-fetched about the nonsexist explanations?
I'm not denying that white knight complexes exist, or even that they're common. But frankly, it's nonsense to assume that this is the motive behind every single man who reacts angrily when their partner is harassed. There are some very obvious alternative motives out there.
Being socially conscious doesn't mean "always assuming the most bigoted motive for any behavior." It just means being aware of bigotry and of all the subtle ways in which it can manifest.
His anger could have been due to a belief that she was his property and nobody should mess with his property, sure. OR it could have been due to him finding it unpleasant when someone he cares about is treated like shit.
Similarly, his reaction could have been due to a belief that she's a delicate lady who is incapable of standing up for herself, sure. OR it could have been a reaction to his own anger at seeing someone he cares about getting treated like shit.
Can you explain to me what seems so far-fetched about the nonsexist explanations?
I'm not denying that white knight complexes exist, or even that they're common. But frankly, it's nonsense to assume that this is the motive behind every single man who reacts angrily when their partner is harassed. There are some very obvious alternative motives out there.
Being socially conscious doesn't mean "always assuming the most bigoted motive for any behavior." It just means being aware of bigotry and of all the subtle ways in which it can manifest.
53
@52:
No, I am not always assuming sexism at work.
The thing is, I didn't find his routine funny; and this part did rub me the wrong way especially. I tried to describe what I disliked about it a bit more precisely and "possessive" came to mind. In my post @36 I also acknowledged that he probably felt quite helpless in that situation.
I want to add that I usually feel pretty safe if I am out alone. The worst that happens are a few uncomfortable minutes if I get cat-called or otherwise harassed by a group of males.
The worst that ever happened to me on the street was when I decided not to make a wide berth around a group of skinheads on an East-German sidewalk, but walked straight through the group. And I even dared to reply politely when one of them said hello to me. They took exception, blocked my path and groped me. One of them seemed on the verge of striking me. But I felt they lost because I didn't let them intimidate me and stood my ground.
I was so thankful that the male friend I was out with decided NOT to intervene, but to stay in the background. Our analysis of the situation was the same: had he tried to do something to help me, it would have tipped the tide to physical violence and we both would have been beaten up.
And that experience probably shaped my view on these kinds of situations.
No, I am not always assuming sexism at work.
The thing is, I didn't find his routine funny; and this part did rub me the wrong way especially. I tried to describe what I disliked about it a bit more precisely and "possessive" came to mind. In my post @36 I also acknowledged that he probably felt quite helpless in that situation.
I want to add that I usually feel pretty safe if I am out alone. The worst that happens are a few uncomfortable minutes if I get cat-called or otherwise harassed by a group of males.
The worst that ever happened to me on the street was when I decided not to make a wide berth around a group of skinheads on an East-German sidewalk, but walked straight through the group. And I even dared to reply politely when one of them said hello to me. They took exception, blocked my path and groped me. One of them seemed on the verge of striking me. But I felt they lost because I didn't let them intimidate me and stood my ground.
I was so thankful that the male friend I was out with decided NOT to intervene, but to stay in the background. Our analysis of the situation was the same: had he tried to do something to help me, it would have tipped the tide to physical violence and we both would have been beaten up.
And that experience probably shaped my view on these kinds of situations.
54
@52
Can you explain to me what seems so far-fetched about the nonsexist explanations? [snip] Being socially conscious doesn't mean "always assuming the most bigoted motive for any behavior."You're new to gender studies, I take it. ;)
55
"Sex And Violence: Why Is Snooki More Pr…
, only to have Amanda Marcotte describe him as "whiny and misguided"...
"The limits of anti-violence slogans"
and have her readers [note: comments at pandagon.net never transferred to the new Pandagon siteat RawStory] mostly piss all over a man who had been put into hospital trying to defuse the dispute between his friend and some creeps. The fact that he (a) tried to avoid violence (b) ended up unconscious on the floor, pouring blood cut zero ice with people. He didn't do it in a way that THEY approved of!!!!!
...he probably felt quite helpless in that situation.That's astute. It's pretty much a no-win situation for a man, very especially so when considered from a feminist perspective. A good example was the writer Cord Jefferson. He was out with a female friend who was running into static from some vulgar jerks, which escalated and then she escalated to violence by dumping nachos on the boor's head, and then continued to scream obscenities at them while hiding behind Jefferson. One of them cold-cocked him, and badly hurt him. He wrote of the experience ...
"Sex And Violence: Why Is Snooki More Pr…
, only to have Amanda Marcotte describe him as "whiny and misguided"...
"The limits of anti-violence slogans"
and have her readers [note: comments at pandagon.net never transferred to the new Pandagon siteat RawStory] mostly piss all over a man who had been put into hospital trying to defuse the dispute between his friend and some creeps. The fact that he (a) tried to avoid violence (b) ended up unconscious on the floor, pouring blood cut zero ice with people. He didn't do it in a way that THEY approved of!!!!!
56
I'm 5'2" 175lbs. Fat. (I'm assuming Dan is disgusted with something that's really none of his business.) This bit makes me want to keep the weight on. I'm not invisible to rapists or misogyny, but I don't have to deal with everyday catcalls. Guys don't mind it if their friends know they're disgusted by me (again, despite it not being their business,) but most guys over 28 don't want to come off as fratholes and no man who would yell out a line wants his friends to think he's attracted to me. Filters out a lot.
57
Feel sorry for woman raped at highline hospital . Feel sorry for anyone who has to go to their er. Its full of rude staff members. The. Drs . Are ok. they didn't put my name on my daughters birth certificate because me and her mother weren't married at the time. Used to be really religiously backed but then that quack Dr. Nixon retire and things were normal. I know a Dr. In one of there clinics who even refers you to another er like Swedish or children s. Highlines er is no better than an urgent care facility .
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