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News & ArtsThursday, January 3, 2013
Guns Gun Nut Claims Hammers Are More Deadly Than Guns
Posted by Cienna Madrid on Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 2:43 PM
Slog tipper Amy directs our attention to an article that's gaining traction among credulous gun nuts on the internet:
According to the FBI annual crime statistics, the number of murders committed annually with hammers and clubs far outnumbers the number of murders committed with a rifle.This is an interesting fact, particularly amid the Democrats' feverish push to ban many different rifles, ostensibly to keep us safe of course.
However, it appears the zeal of Sens. like Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Joe Manchin (D-WV) is misdirected. For in looking at the FBI numbers from 2005 to 2011, the number of murders by hammers and clubs consistently exceeds the number of murders committed with a rifle.
Think about it: In 2005, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 445, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 605. In 2006, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 438, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 618.
...in 2011, there was 323 murders committed with a rifle but 496 murders committed with hammers and clubs.
Let's take a closer look at the data the article's author, Awr Hawkins, references here.
In 2011, the FBI chart notes that there were 323 instances of death-by-rifle, while 496 people were killed by blunt objects. Okay. Hawkin's assertion seems true enough if you're willing to overlook the sensationalist spin that all of the deaths caused by hammers and clubs, when blunt objects could include tire irons, golf clubs, bricks, flower pots... you know, anything that is both "blunt" and an "object." But of course, being a Breitbert writer, Hawkins blithely ignores the other 8,260 firearm-related homicides in 2011 attributed to shotguns, handguns, and other unidentified guns.
The gun-control measure Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) has promised to introduce on the first day of session encompasses more than just assault rifles (and to be clear, no one's talking about banning hunting rifles or single action rifles, although Hawkins doesn't bother to make that distinction). Feinstein's bill would ban the "sale, transfer, importation and manufacturing of more than 100 specifically-named firearms as well as certain semiautomatic rifles, handguns and shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds," among other things.
But Hawkins uses his cherry-picked data on rifles and hammers to drive home this laughable point:
... The bottom line: A rifle ban is as illogical as it is unconstitutional. We face far greater danger from individuals armed with carpenters' tools and a caveman's stick.And it seems fairly obvious that if more people had a gun, less people would be inclined to try to hit them in the head with a hammer.
It seems fairly obvious to me that carpenter's tools build more houses than guns. It seems fairly obvious that someone armed with a hammer would have a hard time murdering 26 people in under 10 minutes. (Unless, of course, they were former Olympic sprinters. Perhaps Hawkins should update his article to villainize sprinters as well?)
It also seems fairly obvious that if you must rely on false equivalencies and incomplete data to argue that guns are essentially safe, you have no business entering a high school debate on gun control, let alone conversing with adults on the topic.
2
I think he's conflating hurting oneself when doing home repairs - which is a serious risk, and most highly correlated with loss of balance and mild to severe heart attacks - with hammers.
Hammers are just tools. Tools that, if you get one of the sledges and put a nice leather loop on it, and balance it, can make an awesome short range killing weapon. But not as dangerous as guns, which, with few exceptions, are just used by gun nuts to kill people.
Anyone who thinks an AK-47 or AR-15 is a great hunting rifle is nuts. Now a 30.06 (or FN C1/C1) that's a decent hunting rifle.
Hammers are just tools. Tools that, if you get one of the sledges and put a nice leather loop on it, and balance it, can make an awesome short range killing weapon. But not as dangerous as guns, which, with few exceptions, are just used by gun nuts to kill people.
Anyone who thinks an AK-47 or AR-15 is a great hunting rifle is nuts. Now a 30.06 (or FN C1/C1) that's a decent hunting rifle.
3
No, no, I'm tellng you, it's absolutely true. A man with a hammer is just as deadly as a man with a gun. This is why if we banned all guns, the right to keep and bear arms would be in no way infringed. Take away their gun and they'll arm themselves with hammers and baseball bats. No difference.
Anyone who says, "No, a hammer is not good enough, I need my shotgun" is just starting us down a slippery slope. The next guy will say, "No, a shotgun isn't good enough, I need a semi-automatic rifle!" Then the next guy says, "No, it has to be a machine gun!" Then they'll want Stinger missiles. Then a nuclear submarine. Then ICBMs. Where does it end?
The Second Amendment doesn't draw a line between hammers and shotguns, nor is there anything in the second amendment saying semi-automatic rifles are OK but machine guns are not. Not to mention nuclear bombs. No lines are drawn in the Second Amendment. It's only activist judges who made this up.
So arm the militia with clubs, hammers. Even CLAW hammers (did you see Oldboy! holy shit). It's the job of the legislature to draw the line, in order to assure all the rights of all the people. Not just the gun nuts' right to arms. Arms they want, arms they shall have.
And I'm not the one who said hammers are just as good as rifles. That's their argument and we should hold them to it.
Anyone who says, "No, a hammer is not good enough, I need my shotgun" is just starting us down a slippery slope. The next guy will say, "No, a shotgun isn't good enough, I need a semi-automatic rifle!" Then the next guy says, "No, it has to be a machine gun!" Then they'll want Stinger missiles. Then a nuclear submarine. Then ICBMs. Where does it end?
The Second Amendment doesn't draw a line between hammers and shotguns, nor is there anything in the second amendment saying semi-automatic rifles are OK but machine guns are not. Not to mention nuclear bombs. No lines are drawn in the Second Amendment. It's only activist judges who made this up.
So arm the militia with clubs, hammers. Even CLAW hammers (did you see Oldboy! holy shit). It's the job of the legislature to draw the line, in order to assure all the rights of all the people. Not just the gun nuts' right to arms. Arms they want, arms they shall have.
And I'm not the one who said hammers are just as good as rifles. That's their argument and we should hold them to it.
4
I know a guy who left a hammer under his car seat, and his kid found it and it accidentally went off and nailed the kid to his seat.
That shit is scarily dangerous. Guns don't kill people, hammers do.
That shit is scarily dangerous. Guns don't kill people, hammers do.
6
It does prove that hammers were used to kill more people than all rifles including assault rifles.
No one would argue that a hammer is deadlier than a rifle, though having seen firsthand violence committed with both hammers and firearms, the hammer beating was far more brutal and disturbing.
It does show that a ban on assault rifles would have minimal impact on crime.
Also being that millions of people own "assault rifles" I know several people who's only rifle is an AR15, the data shows that assault rifle owners are not the people who are commuting murders in this country.
I
t it far easier to beat someone to death with a hammer when they are not armed with a rifle.
I also wish the handgun data was broken down by caliber, I am betting that it would largely be .380acp, .38spl, 22lr and .25acp as those tend to be the calibers of cheap handguns used in gang related crimes.
No one would argue that a hammer is deadlier than a rifle, though having seen firsthand violence committed with both hammers and firearms, the hammer beating was far more brutal and disturbing.
It does show that a ban on assault rifles would have minimal impact on crime.
Also being that millions of people own "assault rifles" I know several people who's only rifle is an AR15, the data shows that assault rifle owners are not the people who are commuting murders in this country.
I
t it far easier to beat someone to death with a hammer when they are not armed with a rifle.
I also wish the handgun data was broken down by caliber, I am betting that it would largely be .380acp, .38spl, 22lr and .25acp as those tend to be the calibers of cheap handguns used in gang related crimes.
7
Hawkins should be challenged to put his theory to the test. A duel! He gets a bag of hammers and a bullet-proof vest. His challenger gets a rifle, laser-sight, one loaded 30-round magazine, and a helmet. Ten paces.
9
Personally, I prefer Framing Hammers, so I can frame the shit out of stupid people.
Hawkins forgot to mention the 1,684 murders done with "other guns" (presumably assault weapons?) and "type not stated" (which could be any firearm, but presumably includes unstated rifles).
He ALSO forgot to mention the 726 murders resulting from "hands, fists, feet, etc." MORE THAN HAMMERS! Following his logic, we should all know what exactly to do with that information. TOTAL BAN ON NINJAS! Also: All martial arts should be hella banned, because that just turns someone into a walking weapon!. Man, I sure am scared now...
Hawkins forgot to mention the 1,684 murders done with "other guns" (presumably assault weapons?) and "type not stated" (which could be any firearm, but presumably includes unstated rifles).
He ALSO forgot to mention the 726 murders resulting from "hands, fists, feet, etc." MORE THAN HAMMERS! Following his logic, we should all know what exactly to do with that information. TOTAL BAN ON NINJAS! Also: All martial arts should be hella banned, because that just turns someone into a walking weapon!. Man, I sure am scared now...
10
Can we carry concealed hammers? Or is that just in Texas? I have a little ball-peen hammer I like to carry in a shoulder holster under my coat to defend myself against the crazies on my bus.
11
@9
No, statistically speaking assault rifles fall into rifles, and not "other guns" you are really grasping at straws. My best educated guess for "other" and "type not states" is pistol caliber carbines, firing pistol ammunition from rifle length barrel, or .22lr firearms, either would make it difficult for forensics to determine if the projectile was fired by a pistol or a rifle
@8
Pretty easy depending on the skill of the user, likewise most people shot with guns do not die.
A 19 year old girl beaten with a both sides of a claw hammer by her just released from prison step father remains one of the nastiest things I have ever seen.
@7
It has been shown that an attacker armed with a knife or blunt object can successfully attack an armed police officer from 21 feet before the officer can draw and fire.
No, statistically speaking assault rifles fall into rifles, and not "other guns" you are really grasping at straws. My best educated guess for "other" and "type not states" is pistol caliber carbines, firing pistol ammunition from rifle length barrel, or .22lr firearms, either would make it difficult for forensics to determine if the projectile was fired by a pistol or a rifle
@8
Pretty easy depending on the skill of the user, likewise most people shot with guns do not die.
A 19 year old girl beaten with a both sides of a claw hammer by her just released from prison step father remains one of the nastiest things I have ever seen.
@7
It has been shown that an attacker armed with a knife or blunt object can successfully attack an armed police officer from 21 feet before the officer can draw and fire.
12
Feinstein's bill would ban ... handguns... that can accept a detachable magazineSo, every handgun except revolvers would be banned? Am I reading that correctly?
If so, I'm sorry, but that bill would have zero chance of passing.
14
What kind of hammer is it? A carpenter's hammer? A metal workers hammer? There MUST BE a ban on stone workers hammers NOW. March on Sunday at 12noon.
15
@12
California bans guns where the magazine can be ejected with fingers.
I'm wondering if this is similar.
So a semi-automatic with a 10 round magazine would be okay as long as the magazine lock needed a tool to work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in…
California bans guns where the magazine can be ejected with fingers.
I'm wondering if this is similar.
So a semi-automatic with a 10 round magazine would be okay as long as the magazine lock needed a tool to work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in…
16
@12
Well Feinstein wouldn't want to ban her personal concealed carry piece, that would make her a hypocrite.
"And then we have Senator Diane Feinstein on the Left Coast who possesses something more rare than a conservative Republican in San Francisco - an unrestricted concealed weapons permit. Apparently without shame, she participated in a citywide gun turn-in program that was intended to create some kind of statue from the donated guns that were to be melted down. One of her police body guards let it slip that she contributed a cheap model for the meltdown, while retaining her .357 magnum revolver for her own personal self-defense."
http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.p…
Well Feinstein wouldn't want to ban her personal concealed carry piece, that would make her a hypocrite.
"And then we have Senator Diane Feinstein on the Left Coast who possesses something more rare than a conservative Republican in San Francisco - an unrestricted concealed weapons permit. Apparently without shame, she participated in a citywide gun turn-in program that was intended to create some kind of statue from the donated guns that were to be melted down. One of her police body guards let it slip that she contributed a cheap model for the meltdown, while retaining her .357 magnum revolver for her own personal self-defense."
http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.p…
17
hell, even the presidential debates don't meet the requirements of a high school debate. there simply is no debate in America that requires facts and logic.
18
Is a crescent wrench a hammer? I saw an episode of CSI where the perp killed someone with a wrench, despite having access to a range of hammers.
19
Meh. Compare "firearms" vs "not firearms" in the criminal totals -- 60-75% of homicides in most every aggregated category were from firearms. The only categories where firearms were not at least 50% of the weapon of choice were sex-related, larceny, "Child killed by babysitter", or "Institutional killings."
23
This is a fairly good illustration of why "assault weapons" bans are not statistically worthwhile in terms of reducing crime.
It is not, however, a good argument against gun control in a general sense.
It is not, however, a good argument against gun control in a general sense.
25
@6:
"I know several people who's only rifle is an AR15, the data shows that assault rifle owners are not the people who are commuting murders in this country."
Assuming you meant "committing", in which case you are correct. Assault Rifle owners are not killing large groups of children in minutes, their unhinged adult sons are.
I would now like to formally apologize to the Slog commenters for feeding the troll.. Please carry on.
"I know several people who's only rifle is an AR15, the data shows that assault rifle owners are not the people who are commuting murders in this country."
Assuming you meant "committing", in which case you are correct. Assault Rifle owners are not killing large groups of children in minutes, their unhinged adult sons are.
I would now like to formally apologize to the Slog commenters for feeding the troll.. Please carry on.
27
Silly Hebrews thinking you'll remove a right guaranteed the people of the US while your illegal state bankrupts the US and begs for more guns to slaughter the rightful inhabitants of the stolen land. All the while Jew run Hollywood continues pushing its guns are glory and blasting away as an American pastime as Hollywood's Affirmative Action President signs into law more federal security acts you communists would have bemoaned about and railed against had a white, conservative, non-jew done the same. These security acts coming at the same time this marxist sends American troops to die fighting Sunni extremists in Afghanistan yet sends guns and money to the same Sunni nutcases in Syria, but that action in Syria is fine since Israel wants Assad to fall and the marxist doesn't speak with Negro inflection.
29
Gun control in a country that already has 200 million privately owned firearms is likely to do little to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. We would be better off debating two taboo subjects — the laws that make it difficult to control people with mental illness and the growing body of evidence that “gun-free” zones, which ban the carrying of firearms by law-abiding individuals, don’t work.
With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.
With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.
31
@2 All I know is that if I attach a leather strap to a sledge there is probably a 90% chance of my seriously hurting myself if I try to do anything with it.
32
@29:
Beg pardon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_mass…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Edwar…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakewood,_W… (note that they were all currently carrying and trained with firearms)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Alabam…
I'm moderately on the side of gun rights, but blatantly lying isn't going to get you anywhere.
With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.
Beg pardon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_mass…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Edwar…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakewood,_W… (note that they were all currently carrying and trained with firearms)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Alabam…
I'm moderately on the side of gun rights, but blatantly lying isn't going to get you anywhere.
33
@25 So what we should do instead of banning assault rifles or guns in general is make people who do own firearms to buy a safe and keep them locked up when not in use? That would actually make more sense. Even if they were able to "ban" guns it wouldn't make much of a difference because firearms are old technology, they are everywhere and it's not very hard to go to the hardware store, spend $30 on various parts and make a gun or "zip gun" even a fully automatic one which is the true definition of an "Assault rifle". Plus banning any type of firearm just gives the cartels, smugglers and drug dealers another thing to push on our street corners.... Which they already do anyhow. We need to be going after the behavior or mental problems that cause people to do these things not the guns themselves. I'm afraid that the reason congress is moving to ban guns is because of a political agenda instead of a moral reason which should have us ALL questioning why.
35
@32
There was no concealed carry allowed in CA at teh time of the San Ysidro massacre, nor in the Luby's massacre which prompted Texas to pass a concealed carry law. I am not familiar with the GMAC's corporate firearms policy in the event of the GMAC office shooting.
You are correct that not all spree killings happen in gun free zones, however the vast majority of mass shootings do happen within a gun free zone.
There was no concealed carry allowed in CA at teh time of the San Ysidro massacre, nor in the Luby's massacre which prompted Texas to pass a concealed carry law. I am not familiar with the GMAC's corporate firearms policy in the event of the GMAC office shooting.
You are correct that not all spree killings happen in gun free zones, however the vast majority of mass shootings do happen within a gun free zone.
36
@28: Was that directed at me? You were saying someone else was dumb? Please, try again. I really want to see you make another attempt at that. See if you can top yourself.
37
Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Came down upon her head.
Clang! Clang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Made sure that she was dead.
(lyrics from a Beatles song)
Came down upon her head.
Clang! Clang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Made sure that she was dead.
(lyrics from a Beatles song)
38
It's oddly weird that the first friend I ever had when I moved to the state of Washington was brutally raped and then murdered with a framing hammer.
The guy who killed her got out of the death penalty on a technicality. The bastard is still alive in Monroe State Penitentiary and his name is Brian Keith Lord.
The guy who killed her got out of the death penalty on a technicality. The bastard is still alive in Monroe State Penitentiary and his name is Brian Keith Lord.
40
Half of all gun killings, that's nearly 4000 a year, are committed by black males, age 15-40. That's 4% of the population. Why no discussion of black 'gun nuts' and gangsta rap culture? Taboo?
41
Guns, Welfare, Medical, etc.... Let the states decide what happens within their borders and remove the federal governments rights to do, well, anything other than provide for foreign policy and national defense, and then people can vote with their feet as to what kind of place they would live.
42
I love this slippery slope comment,
" Then the next guy says, "No, it has to be a machine gun!" Then they'll want Stinger missiles. Then a nuclear submarine. Then ICBMs. Where does it end?"
Because so many people are crying for machine guns and and nuclear submarines. I agree you can never really pay attention to statistics because they can be slanted to say whatever you like them to - Mark Twain’s observation that there are “lies, damned lies, and statistics”suggests that a weak, even a false argument can be made to seem more credible with numbers - but I also think focusing solely on guns is not the answer . 2000 current gun laws are not working. I do not believe video games are the cause of these problems. We have clear issues when it comes to protecting the privacy of the mentally ill. Their privacy outweighs our safety. And the amendment in the PPACA that disallows healthcare professionals from collecting data about firearms from their patients isn't going to help matters. We also have a societal issue. We have an incredible lack of respect in our society, across the board, in every socioeconomic class. But as usual Americans want instant gratification that something is being done so they will focus on guns. When we focus on the youngest generation amongst us and concentrate on making them stand-up respectful people who respect themselves and others in 20 or 30 years we may once again have the society we want so desperately.
" Then the next guy says, "No, it has to be a machine gun!" Then they'll want Stinger missiles. Then a nuclear submarine. Then ICBMs. Where does it end?"
Because so many people are crying for machine guns and and nuclear submarines. I agree you can never really pay attention to statistics because they can be slanted to say whatever you like them to - Mark Twain’s observation that there are “lies, damned lies, and statistics”suggests that a weak, even a false argument can be made to seem more credible with numbers - but I also think focusing solely on guns is not the answer . 2000 current gun laws are not working. I do not believe video games are the cause of these problems. We have clear issues when it comes to protecting the privacy of the mentally ill. Their privacy outweighs our safety. And the amendment in the PPACA that disallows healthcare professionals from collecting data about firearms from their patients isn't going to help matters. We also have a societal issue. We have an incredible lack of respect in our society, across the board, in every socioeconomic class. But as usual Americans want instant gratification that something is being done so they will focus on guns. When we focus on the youngest generation amongst us and concentrate on making them stand-up respectful people who respect themselves and others in 20 or 30 years we may once again have the society we want so desperately.
43
I love this slippery slope comment,
" Then the next guy says, "No, it has to be a machine gun!" Then they'll want Stinger missiles. Then a nuclear submarine. Then ICBMs. Where does it end?"
Because so many people are crying for machine guns and and nuclear submarines. I agree you can never really pay attention to statistics because they can be slanted to say whatever you like them to - Mark Twain’s observation that there are “lies, damned lies, and statistics”suggests that a weak, even a false argument can be made to seem more credible with numbers - but I also think focusing solely on guns is not the answer . 2000 current gun laws are not working. I do not believe video games are the cause of these problems. We have clear issues when it comes to protecting the privacy of the mentally ill. Their privacy outweighs our safety. And the amendment in the PPACA that disallows healthcare professionals from collecting data about firearms from their patients isn't going to help matters. We also have a societal issue. We have an incredible lack of respect in our society, across the board, in every socioeconomic class. But as usual Americans want instant gratification that something is being done so they will focus on guns. When we focus on the youngest generation amongst us and concentrate on making them stand-up respectful people who respect themselves and others in 20 or 30 years we may once again have the society we want so desperately.
" Then the next guy says, "No, it has to be a machine gun!" Then they'll want Stinger missiles. Then a nuclear submarine. Then ICBMs. Where does it end?"
Because so many people are crying for machine guns and and nuclear submarines. I agree you can never really pay attention to statistics because they can be slanted to say whatever you like them to - Mark Twain’s observation that there are “lies, damned lies, and statistics”suggests that a weak, even a false argument can be made to seem more credible with numbers - but I also think focusing solely on guns is not the answer . 2000 current gun laws are not working. I do not believe video games are the cause of these problems. We have clear issues when it comes to protecting the privacy of the mentally ill. Their privacy outweighs our safety. And the amendment in the PPACA that disallows healthcare professionals from collecting data about firearms from their patients isn't going to help matters. We also have a societal issue. We have an incredible lack of respect in our society, across the board, in every socioeconomic class. But as usual Americans want instant gratification that something is being done so they will focus on guns. When we focus on the youngest generation amongst us and concentrate on making them stand-up respectful people who respect themselves and others in 20 or 30 years we may once again have the society we want so desperately.
44
The Second Amendment is the only amendment to the Constitution which states a purpose.
"....the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
The constitution (and specifically the 2nd amendment) was designed to protect the people from a tyrannical government... and history repeats itself.
Don't forget ... the only reason you have the 1st amendment is because of the 2nd.
"....the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"
The constitution (and specifically the 2nd amendment) was designed to protect the people from a tyrannical government... and history repeats itself.
Don't forget ... the only reason you have the 1st amendment is because of the 2nd.
45
Most of you idiots are missing the point of the article, being that there is a huge push to ban certain rifles with certain characteristics which are a tiny subset of overall rifle deaths. than banning handguns which are used in more murders. The author of this article should be writing for the Weekly World News.
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