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Friday, December 14, 2012

Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: It's Not Adultery

Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 9:16 AM

I'm on hiatus while working on a manuscript for a new book. In the meantime, please enjoy these classic Savage Love letters pulled from previous columns. I will be back when the book is finished. —Dan

Originally published June 26, 2008:

A few months before I graduated, a friend revealed that she had been lusting after me, and wanted to hook up. The trouble was that she's in a long-term relationship. She didn't see this as a problem—she was willing to cheat—but I didn't want to be a part of that, and turned her down. She then played some games and got me to kiss her when I was drunk, and later flat-out propositioned me (again while I was drunk), and I refused again. Then we graduated and moved hundreds of miles away from each other, which I expected would be the end of it.

Now, though, a month later, she wrote to tell me that she's "not over" me. Was I right to turn her down, or should I, as she argued, let her make her own mistakes? Should I let her boyfriend (and likely fiancé) know about any of this?

Not An Adultery Helper

My response after the jump...

Can we please—all of us—resist the urge to define adultery down? To commit adultery, a person has to be married, not just dating or going steady or even engaged. This girl, if you fuck her, may be a lying, cheating sack of shit, and you may be a cad, but she won't be an adulteress, NAAH. She can't be one of those until after she's married.

Now clearly you want to fuck this woman—why write otherwise?—and you're probably hoping I'll say that you were wrong to turn her down. But were you? Well, that depends on why she's pursuing you, NAAH. Perhaps she wants to cheat now—before sleeping with someone else rises to the level of adultery—because she wants to live a little before marrying this man. Perhaps she wants to make sure before marriage that the sex she's getting from the boyfriend is as good or better than sex she'd get elsewhere. Or perhaps she wants to fuck you because she's a skanky, skanky whore. Perhaps you should ask her.

One final thought: If sleeping with you convinces this woman that she could never truly be satisfied with her boyfriend and she ends that relationship before she marries him, you will not only have gotten into the pants of a woman you find attractive, NAAH, but done your bit to bring down our divorce rates.

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The part of this that Dan didn't cover, is that NAAH defines himself as "not the other" and that there is something about him that caused him to turn down this sex that I agree that he wants, except for the whole involved in cheating thing.

For myself, I regret the times I was involved with cheating more than the sex I turned down, although this may be because I didn't go very far into non-partner-approved territory, and therefore didn't get much sexually out of my forays into being a piece of shit.

NAAH, and those in similar situations, should also consider what they'll regret more down the road.

Posted by Prospering on December 14, 2012 at 9:33 AM

dude, you seem to get drunk a lot.....

Posted by maybe you're ready to graduate to Pot..... on December 14, 2012 at 10:00 AM

I think with so many of us dating for years (maybe decades if you are gay and can't marry) before marriage, the cheating/adultery distinction is kind of pointless.

Posted by wxPDX on December 14, 2012 at 10:01 AM

or, maybe you will knock her up, and her bf will dump her, and she can add to the out of wed birthrate, and we can read about her and your kid and her latest loser in "Every Child Deserves...."

Posted by PreMarital Sex is Hell on Children on December 14, 2012 at 10:03 AM

or, maybe you will knock her up and then she will pay some fine health care provider sworn to do no harm to kill your child.

Posted by She'll Be Doing Them a Favor on December 14, 2012 at 10:05 AM

Ummm... or maybe you could fuck one of the millions of women who aren't in a relationship, thus saving yourself the potential trouble and keeping your ethics? Also, in young, totally immature women, "I'm not over you" means "I'm not over being turned down". You're not really that special of a snowflake, or else she would have dumped the bf and been with you.

Doing the wrong thing - pay now, or pay later, you're eventually gonna have to pay.

Posted by secretagent on December 14, 2012 at 10:15 AM

But there's also the fact that she didn't take his NO seriously and pursued him when drunk. That's sketchy behavior.

Posted by darkbluecaravan on December 14, 2012 at 10:22 AM

And how, exactly, did he find himself to be drunk in her presence a couple of times? He likes the drama and games as much as she does. Maybe they are meant for one another.

Posted by Laxmi on December 14, 2012 at 10:29 AM

Given this was 2008, I'd love to see an update.

Posted by geoz on December 14, 2012 at 10:30 AM

I think Dan's basically right. There's one other factor to consider though, and that's the "crazy" factor. And just to be clear I'm not saying "Oh, all womenfolk are crazy" just that there are people who are crazy enough to use things like cheating to gain power over other people. Maybe her b/f is the insanely jealous type who may become violent (towards you) if he were to discover her cheating. She lets this slip to you after you've done the deed, and now she has that hanging over your head.
The above example was the situation a friend of mine found himself in, and while such things can be long shots they do happen. Check to see if she has some screws loose before you hop into bed with her.

Posted by MarquisDesMoines on December 14, 2012 at 10:42 AM

Thanks for letting the world know how totally irresistible you are, NAAH. We agree that you're exceptionally hot. Are you happy now?

Posted by BigSteve on December 14, 2012 at 10:51 AM

You guys are crazy. If it's wrong for her to cheat on her boyfriend, why are we endorsing that this guy help her do that?

He can fuck anyone. He should stay away from the crazy one.

Posted by Lauchlin on December 14, 2012 at 10:54 AM

I agree with Lauchlin. We can argue over whether helping someone cheat is okay or not (I lean toward not) but I think we can all agree that putting it in crazy is a bad idea. You never know what crazy will do next.

Posted by mran on December 14, 2012 at 11:06 AM

Shame on you, Dan. Women who sleep around are not whores. Is all the slut-shaming and misogynistic language really necessary?

Posted by msmave on December 14, 2012 at 11:32 AM

@10 YES. THIS.

Been there, done that, and the crazy one kept saying all kinds of things like "it'd be a shame if anyone found out."

The regret from not participating in her cheating will be significantly less than any regrets that are possible if you do. Plenty of fish and all that. Move on, dude.

Posted by urn on December 14, 2012 at 11:32 AM

It's a good way to get your face rearranged by her boyfriend. This may be something she does to get attention from him, make him jealous by going after other men, having men fight over her to boost her self-esteem.

Posted by choppermark on December 14, 2012 at 11:37 AM

Tell her you'll ask her boyfriend if it's OK.

Posted by Dr.Duck on December 14, 2012 at 12:09 PM

Personally, this sounds a little too close to sexual assault to me. Reverse the sexes in this story and it might be more obvious.

If this woman doesn't respect your wishes - you turned her down multiple times - and keeps pursuing you, I'd start seriously worrying about your safety if I were you.

Posted by TooCloseForComfort on December 14, 2012 at 1:38 PM

@14: She's going behind her boyfriend's back to try and get with other guys. That's not okay in most circumstances.

Posted by venomlash on December 14, 2012 at 1:51 PM

7, 10: Exactly. If it's not a problem that she'd be cheating with you, it should be a problem that she just won't leave you the fuck alone and respect the answer you gave the first two times.

People like this tend to get worse, not better, after you've slept with them. Fuck somebody else.

Posted by Bonefish

on December 14, 2012 at 6:33 PM

Short, boring update, since it's past my bedtime:

We never got together.

Posted by Dan-Savage Certified Skanky, Skanky Whore on December 15, 2012 at 12:54 AM

Wow, how was this not setting off more potential-stalker/rapist alarm bells, Dan? Plying someone who's intoxicated for sex after they've already said no and looking them up to continue to proposition them after moving far away are red-flag behaviors.

Posted by John Horstman on December 15, 2012 at 9:45 PM

"Don't put your dick in crazy" - and this situation had the red flags flying!

Posted by GLM on December 23, 2012 at 2:49 PM